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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Sky Bet decision that points to problems for sites like PB

SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Sky Bet decision that points to problems for sites like PB

Affiliates are third-party companies who work on commission for gambling retailers by directing traffic (customers) to their sites. In the last few years the use of affiliate companies has vastly increased due to the tighter regulation and rising cost of traditional advertising. A 2015 study by the IAB (Interactive Advertising Bureau) estimates that over £16.5bn worth of sales were the result of this performance based marketing.

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    First!!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?
  • Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    You should have seen the headlines it had planned before the memo arrived!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230
    Affiliate Manager = Alastair Meeks new pseudonym?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    After the header, I am little wiser.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    Even more reason then not to pay 50 to 100 billion to the EU
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Nationwide Red warning now. All schools and colleges to close.

    Not sure if this is a new Tory policy so they dont have to put taxes up for the rich or something to do with the weather
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    After the header, I am little wiser.

    I am always grateful to thread header writers, it is a difficult and sometimes thankless task, but I must confess this one is a hard read.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230
    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.
  • Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    That is genuinely frightening on many levels. We are not in a great place. Makes No Deal even more suicidal, of course.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    willianglenn - has this changed - "The starkest example of this imperialist domination is coffee. In 2014 Africa —the home of coffee— earned just £1.5 billion from the crop. Yet Germany, a leading processor, earned nearly double that from coffee re-exports.

    The reason for this is that Africa is punished by the EU with a 7.5 per cent tariff charge on roasted coffee but non-decaffeinated green coffee is exempt. As a result, the bulk of Africa’s export to the EU is unroasted green coffee and German manufacturers reap the rewards.

    The charge on cocoa is even more debilitating as the EU tariff charge is a massive30 per cent for processed cocoa products like chocolate bars or cocoa powder, and 60 per cent for some other refined products containing cocoa.

    Calestous Juma insists that the impact of such charges goes well beyond lost export opportunities. “They suppress technological innovation and industrial development among African countries.

    “The practice denies the continent the ability to acquire, adopt and diffuse technologies used in food processing. It explains to some extent the low level of investment in Africa’s food processing enterprises,” he says.

    "
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited October 2017

    Nationwide Red warning now. All schools and colleges to close.

    Not sure if this is a new Tory policy so they dont have to put taxes up for the rich or something to do with the weather

    There is a Nationwide Red Warning, but you’ve got the wrong nation(s). It is for Ireland.

    We can still blame the Tories, though, can’t we? They haven’t issued a Red Warning because they don’t care whether the poor get blown away by the hurricane.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820
    edited October 2017
    PAW said:

    willianglenn - has this changed

    It wasn't true when it was written. 7.5% is the EU WTO Most Favoured Nation tariff for coffee which doesn't apply to any country in Africa. There's a factual explanation here, which does also go into the tariff escalation issue. (Strangely this piece was even cited in Calestous Juma's article which suggests he didn't read it properly.)

    http://www.ico.org/documents/icc-107-7e-tariffs-trade.pdf
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    In the past 3 years more than half the revenue that funds the site has come from affiliate income. If that is cut we might have to explore other ways of keeping going.

    PB's affiliate income is, as you'd expect, a lot higher in years when there've been big elections. If there is little of interest to bet on then it declines sharply.

  • Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    That is genuinely frightening on many levels. We are not in a great place. Makes No Deal even more suicidal, of course.

    Does make you wonder how reliable our forecasts and economic data is when the ONS can make some huge revisions just like that. Our immigration data remains mainly based on people with clipboards at airports doing sample surveys updated on census data that has the capacity to miss out large numbers of people in HMOs and overcrowded housing or the transient who don't or won't engage.

    What actually are the true figures for anything?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    brendan16 said:

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    That is genuinely frightening on many levels. We are not in a great place. Makes No Deal even more suicidal, of course.

    Does make you wonder how reliable our forecasts and economic data is when the ONS can make some huge revisions just like that. Our immigration data remains mainly based on people with clipboards at airports doing sample surveys updated on census data that has the capacity to miss out large numbers of people in HMOs and overcrowded housing or the transient who don't or won't engage.

    What actually are the true figures for anything?
    Between the original and revised?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    On topic

    I signed up to 4 or 5 betting sites pre-GE 17, but I am afraid it never occurred to me to use the links which I now see on the right of the page; they are too discreet, esp when using a tablet or phone.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    Nationwide Red warning now. All schools and colleges to close.

    Not sure if this is a new Tory policy so they dont have to put taxes up for the rich or something to do with the weather

    There is a Nationwide Red Warning, but you’ve got the wrong nation(s). It is for Ireland.

    We can still blame the Tories, though, can’t we? They haven’t issued a Red Warning because they don’t care whether the poor get blown away by the hurricane.
    And Rich people's schools will be fine due to boarding!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    In the past 3 years more than half the revenue that funds the site has come from affiliate income. If that is cut we might have to explore other ways of keeping going.

    PB's affiliate income is, as you'd expect, a lot higher in years when there've been big elections. If there is little of interest to bet on then it declines sharply.

    Ok thanks Mike. I presume the others will wait to see how SkyBet fares?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice
    Won't it be a bit late for all that by the next election?
  • HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Nationwide Red warning now. All schools and colleges to close.

    Not sure if this is a new Tory policy so they dont have to put taxes up for the rich or something to do with the weather

    There is a Nationwide Red Warning, but you’ve got the wrong nation(s). It is for Ireland.

    We can still blame the Tories, though, can’t we? They haven’t issued a Red Warning because they don’t care whether the poor get blown away by the hurricane.
    Michael Fish has assured me there's not going to be a hurricane :lol:
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484
    edited October 2017

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    That is genuinely frightening on many levels. We are not in a great place. Makes No Deal even more suicidal, of course.

    Agreed. But even if the UK agreed to pay the sums demanded by the EU, it seems unlikely that there will be any sort of deal in place by March 2019. The most we can expect is some sort of promise to talk about a deal.

    So the choices are:-

    1. No deal at all

    2. Paying up and still have no deal. Possibly some transitional arrangement might be agreed.

    3. Reversing our position and saying that we won’t leave the SM or customs union but will leave the EU’s political structures. This would be in line - technically - with the referendum result but not what many of those who voted Leave expected. It would take a huge amount of courage and persuasive ability to get this through.

    4. Withdrawing our Article 50 letter. Almost certainly not legally possible and, more importantly, probably also politically impossible in the UK.

    Wharever route is taken, tough times ahead, methinks. Certainly in the short-term.

    (Perhaps we need some off the wall thinking. Maybe Mrs May could pick up on Juncker’s recent statement that Britain should be thanked for what it did in the war but that it was now time to pay and say that that bill would be settled once the European countries had paid what they owed Britain for what it did for them in the war. :) )
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    In the past 3 years more than half the revenue that funds the site has come from affiliate income. If that is cut we might have to explore other ways of keeping going.

    PB's affiliate income is, as you'd expect, a lot higher in years when there've been big elections. If there is little of interest to bet on then it declines sharply.

    Ok thanks Mike. I presume the others will wait to see how SkyBet fares?
    As it happens we won't feel much from SkyBet because its political markets have been very patchy. My worry is if other firms close them down.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Give the ONS a chance. It's extremely difficult to track flows of this nature,
    particularly when we host the world's most important financial centre. If we still had exchange controls it would be a lot easier.

    On that note, good night!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    I have no idea to what extent PB is dependent on affiliate marketing. Is the thread header saying is PB at risk?

    In the past 3 years more than half the revenue that funds the site has come from affiliate income. If that is cut we might have to explore other ways of keeping going.

    PB's affiliate income is, as you'd expect, a lot higher in years when there've been big elections. If there is little of interest to bet on then it declines sharply.

    How about a tenner per 1000 posts? I'd be game. Plus, would give new meaning to "Spend a Penny!"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    Alistair Darling managed it between two statements to the House.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice
    Won't it be a bit late for all that by the next election?
    If Labour won the next general election post Brexit on a platform of paying 100 billion Euros to the EU, keeping full free movement and ECJ jurisdiction I expect the EU would happily consider a deal
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397
    PAW said:

    willianglenn - has this changed - "The starkest example of this imperialist domination is coffee. In 2014 Africa —the home of coffee— earned just £1.5 billion from the crop. Yet Germany, a leading processor, earned nearly double that from coffee re-exports.

    The reason for this is that Africa is punished by the EU with a 7.5 per cent tariff charge on roasted coffee but non-decaffeinated green coffee is exempt. As a result, the bulk of Africa’s export to the EU is unroasted green coffee and German manufacturers reap the rewards.

    The charge on cocoa is even more debilitating as the EU tariff charge is a massive30 per cent for processed cocoa products like chocolate bars or cocoa powder, and 60 per cent for some other refined products containing cocoa.

    Calestous Juma insists that the impact of such charges goes well beyond lost export opportunities. “They suppress technological innovation and industrial development among African countries.

    “The practice denies the continent the ability to acquire, adopt and diffuse technologies used in food processing. It explains to some extent the low level of investment in Africa’s food processing enterprises,” he says.

    "

    A correction to your post. Almost all African countries are exempted from tariffs on these products. You are quoting the EU's MFN tariffs (as Jacob Ress-Mogg did in his talk), but they don't apply to the least developed countries and more developed countries with PTAs with the EU will typically have reduced or zero tariffs as well. The point doesn't stand. African countries may find it difficult to produce and export processed coffee but it isn't a tariff issue. It isn't helpful to apply the wrong remedy to a problem. It's probably a marketing issue in fact.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    I shifted the majority of my equities into foreign assets, or British companies that earn mostly overseas over a year ago. I large part this was as a hedge against Sterling devaluation, but as I am clearly not the only one doing this, it does become rather self fulfilling.

    Presumably the steep rise in UK gold exports shows in these figures too.

    http://news.sky.com/story/revealed-how-gold-takes-the-shine-off-britains-trade-figures-11057545
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for voting Remain were 'The risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices' and 'Access to the EU single market, while out of the Euro and no-borders areas, giving the best of both worlds'
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Second election in a row in Austria where the next day postals could make an important difference. Last time they decided the winner of the presidential election, this time who comes second in the legislative election.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    Yikes
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyclefree said:

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    That is genuinely frightening on many levels. We are not in a great place. Makes No Deal even more suicidal, of course.

    Agreed. But even if the UK agreed to pay the sums demanded by the EU, it seems unlikely that there will be any sort of deal in place by March 2019. The most we can expect is some sort of promise to talk about a deal.

    So the choices are:-

    1. No deal at all

    2. Paying up and still have no deal. Possibly some transitional arrangement might be agreed.

    3. Reversing our position and saying that we won’t leave the SM or customs union but will leave the EU’s political structures. This would be in line - technically - with the referendum result but not what many of those who voted Leave expected. It would take a huge amount of courage and persuasive ability to get this through.

    4. Withdrawing our Article 50 letter. Almost certainly not legally possible and, more importantly, probably also politically impossible in the UK.

    Wharever route is taken, tough times ahead, methinks. Certainly in the short-term.

    (Perhaps we need some off the wall thinking. Maybe Mrs May could pick up on Juncker’s recent statement that Britain should be thanked for what it did in the war but that it was now time to pay and say that that bill would be settled once the European countries had paid what they owed Britain for what it did for them in the war. :) )
    When all options are absurd in differing ways, we can be certain that something absurd will happen.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    kle4 said:

    Yikes

    Prepared to expand on that at all kle?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FF43 said:

    PAW said:

    willianglenn - has this changed - "The starkest example of this imperialist domination is coffee. In 2014 Africa —the home of coffee— earned just £1.5 billion from the crop. Yet Germany, a leading processor, earned nearly double that from coffee re-exports.

    The reason for this is that Africa is punished by the EU with a 7.5 per cent tariff charge on roasted coffee but non-decaffeinated green coffee is exempt. As a result, the bulk of Africa’s export to the EU is unroasted green coffee and German manufacturers reap the rewards.

    The charge on cocoa is even more debilitating as the EU tariff charge is a massive30 per cent for processed cocoa products like chocolate bars or cocoa powder, and 60 per cent for some other refined products containing cocoa.

    Calestous Juma insists that the impact of such charges goes well beyond lost export opportunities. “They suppress technological innovation and industrial development among African countries.

    “The practice denies the continent the ability to acquire, adopt and diffuse technologies used in food processing. It explains to some extent the low level of investment in Africa’s food processing enterprises,” he says.

    "

    A correction to your post. Almost all African countries are exempted from tariffs on these products. You are quoting the EU's MFN tariffs (as Jacob Ress-Mogg did in his talk), but they don't apply to the least developed countries and more developed countries with PTAs with the EU will typically have reduced or zero tariffs as well. The point doesn't stand. African countries may find it difficult to produce and export processed coffee but it isn't a tariff issue. It isn't helpful to apply the wrong remedy to a problem. It's probably a marketing issue in fact.
    Having drunk Malawian Tea and Coffee, proceessed there I can confirm its poor quality. both taste of dust.

    Malawian Gin is rather good though (and has a cult following amongst expats) and the beer is quite palatable.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for voting Remain were 'The risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices' and 'Access to the EU single market, while out of the Euro and no-borders areas, giving the best of both worlds'
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

    No matter. Promises were made. Time for Johnson and Gove to deliver what they told voters would happen and to own the consequences.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    The Leave vote was never about the economy

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Leave vote was never about the economy

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104
    As the figures I gave showed the '£350 million for the NHS' was not one of the main reasons for voting Leave, they were restoring sovereignty and reducing immigration.

    That poster was just a Cummings stunt
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI ....

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for voting Remain were 'The risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices' and 'Access to the EU single market, while out of the Euro and no-borders areas, giving the best of both worlds'
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

    No matter. Promises were made. Time for Johnson and Gove to deliver what they told voters would happen and to own the consequences.

    I understand why you say this but, with all due respect, I think it’s silly.

    At a time like this what we really need are politicians with the courage to spell out the real choices we face, the consequences of each and to push through the best option we have available, doubtless in the face of a lot of sniping from their own side.

    What we don’t need is more game-playing.

    Our trouble is that we don’t have such politicians around.

    Anyway, feeling a bit achey and fluey this evening so will say goodnight and hooe that a decent night’s sleep will sort matters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for voting Remain were 'The risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices' and 'Access to the EU single market, while out of the Euro and no-borders areas, giving the best of both worlds'
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

    No matter. Promises were made. Time for Johnson and Gove to deliver what they told voters would happen and to own the consequences.

    They must deliver regained sovereignty and an end to free movement, I agree
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397
    edited October 2017
    FF43 said:

    PAW said:

    willianglenn - has this changed - "The starkest example of this imperialist domination is coffee. In 2014 Africa —the home of coffee— earned just £1.5 billion from the crop. Yet Germany, a leading processor, earned nearly double that from coffee re-exports.

    The reason for this is that Africa is punished by the EU with a 7.5 per cent tariff charge on roasted coffee but non-decaffeinated green coffee is exempt. As a result, the bulk of Africa’s export to the EU is unroasted green coffee and German manufacturers reap the rewards.

    The charge on cocoa is even more debilitating as the EU tariff charge is a massive30 per cent for processed cocoa products like chocolate bars or cocoa powder, and 60 per cent for some other refined products containing cocoa.

    Calestous Juma insists that the impact of such charges goes well beyond lost export opportunities. “They suppress technological innovation and industrial development among African countries.

    “The practice denies the continent the ability to acquire, adopt and diffuse technologies used in food processing. It explains to some extent the low level of investment in Africa’s food processing enterprises,” he says.

    "

    A correction to your post. Almost all African countries are exempted from tariffs on these products. You are quoting the EU's MFN tariffs (as Jacob Ress-Mogg did in his talk), but they don't apply to the least developed countries and more developed countries with PTAs with the EU will typically have reduced or zero tariffs as well. The point doesn't stand. African countries may find it difficult to produce and export processed coffee but it isn't a tariff issue. It isn't helpful to apply the wrong remedy to a problem. It's probably a marketing issue in fact.
    Checking the figures, I discovered roasted coffee in Germany comes with a whopping €2.19/kg duty in addition to VAT at 7%. Instant coffee attracts a €4.78 /kg duty. The UK has 0% VAT and no duty on coffee. Good smuggling opportunity there, I think.

    Edit Latvia is even worse. 21% VAT plus €142/100kg duty
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for voting Remain were 'The risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices' and 'Access to the EU single market, while out of the Euro and no-borders areas, giving the best of both worlds'
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

    No matter. Promises were made. Time for Johnson and Gove to deliver what they told voters would happen and to own the consequences.

    They must deliver regained sovereignty and an end to free movement, I agree

    Yep, among other things. Those sunlit uplands are calling.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609
    edited October 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm baffled as to how the ONS can misaccount for almost half a trillion pounds of assets.

    It sounds as if the main thing is the reversal of flow of FDI, but also a large move away from Sterling assets.

    https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/919671265299968000

    Explains Hammond's demeanour. Like Darling in 07/08 he has seen the full figures. Darling was criticised for his pessimism too, if I remember correctly. It really is time to handover to Boris and Gove. They need to own this and deliver what they promised.

    No 50 to 100 billion euros payments to the EU, an end to free movement and no ECJ jurisdiction, that is what they promised and that is what the Tories will likely fight the next general election on. If Corbyn wants to fight on paying 50 to 100 billion euros to the EU for a deal (which would probably require free movement left unchecked and full ECJ jurisdiction too and a semi permanent transition period given it took Canada 7 years to negotiate a deal with the EU) he is welcome to. I doubt he would given his Brexit sympathies but it would at least give the electorate a real choice

    Sunlit uplands, higher wages, lower prices, more public spending. Time to deliver.

    The Leave vote was never about the economy, that was the Remain vote.

    The top 2 reasons given by Leave voters for voting Leave were 'The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK' and 'Voting to Leave offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.'

    The top 2 reasons given by Remain voters for
    No matter. Promises were made. Time for Johnson and Gove to deliver what they told voters would happen and to own the consequences.

    They must deliver regained sovereignty and an end to free movement, I agree

    Yep, among other things. Those sunlit uplands are calling.

    Those were the two main things Leave voters voted for, those 2 must be delivered after Leave's victory.

    If and when voters decide they want to return to the single market, perhaps after a number of years of falling immigration leading to a more conciliatory approach to free movement, they can elect a party that will do so (probably requiring a post-Corbyn Labour leader to deliver it) but in the short term those are the 2 key priorities of Brexit
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    Those were the two main things Leave voters voted for, those 2 must be delivered after Leave's victory.

    We were always sovereign, and crashing the economy solves the immigration question, but it's sweet you think that will lead to adoring fans and not riots in the streets.

    Bless.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609
    edited October 2017
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    Those were the two main things Leave voters voted for, those 2 must be delivered after Leave's victory.

    We were always sovereign, and crashing the economy solves the immigration question, but it's sweet you think that will lead to adoring fans and not riots in the streets.

    Bless.
    I voted for Remain, I am just telling you what 17 million Leave voters voted for in their own words.

    If you really want riots in the streets, ignoring the biggest democratic mandate since WW2 would be a good place to start.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,224
    She will be told in no uncertain terms by Juncker and Barnier that even if talks on our future relationship with the EU were to start in January - which as I say is by no means certain - that relationship is seen by EU governments and officials as fraught with complexities and difficult-to-resolve issues of principle.

    So for what it’s worth, the proposals in our recent position papers on everything from data flows to customs checks are seen as naive and unworkable - largely because we are perceived as not having accepted that we are to become a third party, a stranger to them, no longer a member of the family.

    My powerful impression is that the rest of the EU sees the UK government as less hostile than it was, but considerably more muddled.


    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-10-15/theresa-may-brexit-barnier-juncker/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820
    "There will be no Brexit without an almighty political crisis, whose form is yet to be determined."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,224

    "There will be no Brexit without an almighty political crisis, whose form is yet to be determined."
    And given the EU’s track record on deals for money, (“give us the money now, we’ll sort out the deal later”) looks like WTO Brexit here we come....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,727

    ...the proposals in our recent position papers on everything from data flows to customs checks are seen as naive and unworkable...

    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-10-15/theresa-may-brexit-barnier-juncker/

    Thank you for the link, most interesting.

    I believe I said this when they released them. Indeed, it might have been you I said it to (in which case I apologise for the repetition) Damn, this is beginning to worry me... :(

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849

    "There will be no Brexit without an almighty political crisis, whose form is yet to be determined."
    And given the EU’s track record on deals for money, (“give us the money now, we’ll sort out the deal later”) looks like WTO Brexit here we come....
    BINO or WTO seems like the only two achievable options in the time available. Either one would probably bring down the government but the tories would, overall, prefer WTO on the basis that they want to watch the world burn with Corbyn as PM.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,224
    viewcode said:

    ...the proposals in our recent position papers on everything from data flows to customs checks are seen as naive and unworkable...

    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-10-15/theresa-may-brexit-barnier-juncker/

    Thank you for the link, most interesting.

    I believe I said this when they released them. Indeed, it might have been you I said it to (in which case I apologise for the repetition) Damn, this is beginning to worry me... :(

    Yes it certainly looks like the British are much more ambitious/deluded while the EU27 are more recalcitrant/realistic (delete as appropriate).....
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Interesting Tele front page, firing a warning shot at Hammond before his budget.

    Bullshit spin from Christopher Hope;

    "Chancellor attempts to save his job by gambling on reforms aimed at 'inter-generational fairness'"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41631277

    If he wanted to save his job, he'd be doing the exact opposite. He's trying to save the tory party from losing the next election.

    I'm not sure he's strong enough to resist the pressure from the tory client vote right now. Abolishing/substantially reducing higher rate tax relief would finish him off, imo.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866
    HYUFD said:

    Tele didn't get the 'more optimism' memo, obvs.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/919667153334349824

    Even more reason then not to pay 50 to 100 billion to the EU
    The British economy is - what - £2 trillion, give or take a few.

    Let's assume that in a Brexit deal world, the UK economy grows at 2.5% a year in perpetuity.

    In a no deal world, it drops 2% in year one, then doesn't grow for two years, and then grows at 2.5% in perpetuity.

    Which is better value for the UK taxpayer £100bn now, or no deal?

    (As it happens, I don't believe the real bill will end up being anywhere near £100bn, as the "bill" includes contingent liabilities associated with the Irish bailout that will never be paid, and it ignores both assets and payments during the transitional period.)

    But the point is a simple one: any bill must be seen in the context of the long term effects on the British economy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866

    viewcode said:

    ...the proposals in our recent position papers on everything from data flows to customs checks are seen as naive and unworkable...

    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-10-15/theresa-may-brexit-barnier-juncker/

    Thank you for the link, most interesting.

    I believe I said this when they released them. Indeed, it might have been you I said it to (in which case I apologise for the repetition) Damn, this is beginning to worry me... :(

    Yes it certainly looks like the British are much more ambitious/deluded while the EU27 are more recalcitrant/realistic (delete as appropriate).....
    Brilliant: I'm stealing that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,224
    (Reuters) - The Brexit worries of some of Britain's biggest businesses have eased slightly over the past three months and optimism is up from a low struck after June's unexpected election result, a survey by accountants Deloitte showed on Monday.

    The poll of chief financial officers who make investment decisions at Britain's biggest companies showed that the proportion who think Brexit will damage the business environment dropped to 60 percent from 72 percent in the previous survey.


    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1CK0YT
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,224
    edited October 2017
    Duplicate
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866

    (Reuters) - The Brexit worries of some of Britain's biggest businesses have eased slightly over the past three months and optimism is up from a low struck after June's unexpected election result, a survey by accountants Deloitte showed on Monday.

    The poll of chief financial officers who make investment decisions at Britain's biggest companies showed that the proportion who think Brexit will damage the business environment dropped to 60 percent from 72 percent in the previous survey.


    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1CK0YT

    As the CFO of a mid-sized British company (albeit one based in LA), Brexit has negatively affected our investment decisions somewhat.

    But the decline in the value of sterling, and the fall in the rental price of London office space is working against that. People forgot how significant the automatic stabilisers in the modern economy are :smile:.

    As a technology business, the biggest issues for us would be around the recruitment of developers and salespeople. If we do end up with a situation where it is difficult for us to get the right people in London, we would have to build up our European hubs more: there has been a lot of discussion internally about investing in either Berlin or (potentially as a low cost centre) Lisbon.

    Our default assumption - and I'm sure this is shared by most companies - is that no deal is simply too expensive for both the EU and the UK.

    My bigger concern than Brexit is a recession leading to a Corbyn government. I think that could do an enormous amount of damage.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,727
    edited October 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    The British economy is - what - £2 trillion, give or take a few.

    Let's assume that in a Brexit deal world, the UK economy grows at 2.5% a year in perpetuity.

    In a no deal world, it drops 2% in year one, then doesn't grow for two years, and then grows at 2.5% in perpetuity.

    Which is better value for the UK taxpayer £100bn now, or no deal?

    (As it happens, I don't believe the real bill will end up being anywhere near £100bn, as the "bill" includes contingent liabilities associated with the Irish bailout that will never be paid, and it ignores both assets and payments during the transitional period.)

    But the point is a simple one: any bill must be seen in the context of the long term effects on the British economy.

    Goddamn you, I have to go to bed! I have to get up early tomorrow.

    OK:
    Option1: Deal. Cost £100b, growth 2.5%pa
    Option2: No deal, Cost 0, growth -2% yr 1, 0 yr 2 and 3, 2.5%pa thereafter.

    Notes: Economy yr 0 £2000b, assume simple not compound growth.

    Deal (yr vs economy)
    1 £1900
    2 £1948
    3 £1996
    4 £2042
    5 £2090

    Grows at £48b pa thereafter

    No deal (yr vs economy)
    1 £1960
    2 £1960
    3 £1960
    4 £2009
    5 £2058

    Grows at £49b pa thereafter

    Crossover is around year 38.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The British economy is - what - £2 trillion, give or take a few.

    Let's assume that in a Brexit deal world, the UK economy grows at 2.5% a year in perpetuity.

    In a no deal world, it drops 2% in year one, then doesn't grow for two years, and then grows at 2.5% in perpetuity.

    Which is better vAsalue for the UK taxpayer £100bn now, or no deal?

    (As it happens, I don't believe the real bill will end up being anywhere near £100bn, as the "bill" includes contingent liabilities associated with the Irish bailout that will never be paid, and it ignores both assets and payments during the transitional period.)

    But the point is a simple one: any bill must be seen in the context of the long term effects on the British economy.

    Goddamn you, I have to go to bed! I have to get up early tomorrow.

    OK:
    Option1: Deal. Cost £100b, growth 2.5%pa
    Option2: No deal, Cost 0, growth -2% yr 1, 0 yr 2 and 3, 2.5%pa thereafter.

    Notes: Economy yr 0 £2000b, assume simple not compound growth.

    Deal (yr vs economy)
    1 £1900
    2 £1948
    3 £1996
    4 £2042
    5 £2090

    Grows at £48b pa thereafter

    No deal (yr vs economy)
    1 £1960
    2 £1960
    3 £1960
    4 £2009
    5 £2058

    Grows at £49b pa thereafter

    Crossover is around year 38.
    ?

    You've gone stark raving bonkers.

    Firstly, Why would it grow at £48bn (or £49bn) thereafter? That would be a diminishing percentage growth, not 2.5%.

    Secondly, £100bn payment does not mean the economy is £100bn smaller in perpetuity. It would be a one off payment in year one, not something that diminished the size of the economy in year two. (And should in any case be modelled as the cost of debt on £100bn.)
This discussion has been closed.