I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
Sure, and that referendum would then be on the basis that HMG has that power.
Maybe you could check if that's the case before promoting a referendum which might be illegitimate?
Gone by the autumn: that was the conventional wisdom when Theresa May failed to win her election majority last summer. She was a dead woman walking. She would not even make it to her party conference, let alone survive it.
She is still there, and shows no signs of leaving. So much for the conventional wisdom, biased always to apocalypse and bored by continuity......
I suspect May will emerge from this debacle curiously strengthened. Her enemies will inevitably see it as a coded sign of female weakness, but her greatest lack so far has been of humanity. In Manchester, she was compelled to convey humour, vulnerability and a degree of emotion. I doubt if it will do her much harm. She may be unpopular but survive she will, for the time being. The Tories elected her a year ago. They know they must live with her.
Conferences are a distorting lens of political fortune. British party leaders are in a phenomenally strong position, provided they hold their nerve. The bizarre events in Manchester suggest May’s nerve, if not her voice, remains steady.
So we leave without a deal - which seems likely if the EU leave Barnier and Juncker in place.
What would we be voting about? We didn't vote conditionally. No one asked me "Should we leave only if we get a nice deal?" We voted to leave, no matter how the LDs wriggle.
Sensible politicians know trying to thwart it would cause chaos. Even blocking the illegal referendum in Spain will cause a lot of trouble and make things worse.
ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems
That jumped out at me at first, but I assume 5% of total Lab membership is probably greater than 10% of Con membership. Aren't Lab claiming some humungous number for their membership?
While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.
There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
Link us to your prediction of it, then. I am gutted at missing your tip to back ”letter F falls off slogan” at 200/1. Either that, or stop aftertiming. This was all entirely contingent, shit happens stuff. The F could have stayed in place, the voice could have lasted another half hour.
From Tuesday night... " May lost power in June. She is soon to lose office. Destined to be one of the more tragic figures of British politics. "
Spot on, I'd say.
Not really, too broad spectrum. But for the unforeseeable, yesterday would have shored her up for another year, and it still might, because who wants the job? Davis has recused himself, not out of magnanimity but because he sees how much the job sucks. Johnson is a political corpse rotting amusingly away on the metaphorical sand of Sirte.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
i) The Tories are pensioners - average ages are within 10% of each other across the Parties ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems iii) Labour is a 'London/M25' Party - its the least represented in London/South East of the national parties. iv) The Tories are the London/South East Party - not when the Lib Dems have 60% of their members there. v) Labour is the Party of the young - really, with 16% of their members under 34 while the Tories have 14% and the LD's 20%?
Up to a point. Labour have about 5 times the membership of the other parties, so in the SE have more members than the Tories, albeit a smaller predominance than in the North.
The Tories do have a wider range of ages, but still very skewed. All parties seem to have a mode of white middle-aged, middle class men. Lab and SNP less so.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
Sure, and that referendum would then be on the basis that HMG has that power.
Maybe you could check if that's the case before promoting a referendum which might be illegitimate?
This came about because CD13 misrepresented the LibDem case. It's not up to me to determine whether HMG has the power to withdraw A50. I doubt whether anybody knows at the moment, although didn't the guy who wrote it say it would be possible? If it were in everybody's interest to make it possible, the politicians should be able to make it possible.
And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
Personal - he said he wanted her chopped up in bags in his freezer.his obvious hatred undermines whatever true points he makes
It reads like something someone who has just binge watched a box set of Breaking Bad might say if they are trying to be a bit edgy. It's obviously a joke rather than a serious threat.
And his assessment of her has been proven spot on so it can't be that blinded by hate.
The problem is most easily understood by imagining that Jezza had had a similar coughing fit. It would have been a minor point of interest but wouldn't have provoked questions about his leadership.
I've had a read of the Prime Minister's speech. To be honest, it's fairly unremarkable stuff - part pep talk, part end of term report, part rabble-rousing rhetoric. It is interesting to see the Miliband proposal on energy bills being largely adopted but much of the rest of it could have been said by any British Prime Minister.
I do find it curious regarding the Conservative obsession with home ownership. It doesn't seem to be such an issue in other parts of the world. There's nothing wrong with renting or choosing to rent and there's also nothing wrong with an active, properly-regulated private rental sector.
It's interesting both May and Corbyn have placed housing after Brexit as the leading policy issue of the day but we also know it isn't just about building houses but building communities and the infrastructure supporting them.
As an example, the proposal to redevelop the site of Kempton Park racecourse suggests 3.500 homes. That means in effect 10,000 new people and the services for these people - GPs, schools, community centres along with the practicalities of drainage, sewerage and how Spelthorne Council will handle the additional refuse collection as examples.
Simply building vast estates of houses with the most rudimentary of infrastructure is pointless - housing needs planning and that's what hasn't happened.
As I recall the A50 case had both sides accept A50 was irrevocable, although one of the judges noted there were legal experts who thought it might not be the case. It's probably arguable, and down to the ECJ.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
Personal - he said he wanted her chopped up in bags in his freezer.his obvious hatred undermines whatever true points he makes
It reads like something someone who has just binge watched a box set of Breaking Bad might say if they are trying to be a bit edgy. It's obviously a joke rather than a serious threat.
And his assessment of her has been proven spot on so it can't be that blinded by hate.
For everyone who has worked with her it was only a matter of time before she was found out. And so it has proved.
I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
He's cr@p,look at the disastrous interviews at the General election.
Blame Mrs May, no one had a good campaign thanks to her.
Ruth Davidson and the Scons has an excellent campaign as they ran their own campaign
Their strategy of hiding Tessy away in secret locations with invitation only audiences certainly looks prescient. Thank goodness there was no one in when Tessy chapped doors in Banchory, or that would be a few more votes lost.
As I recall the A50 case had both sides accept A50 was irrevocable, although one of the judges noted there were legal experts who thought it might not be the case. It's probably arguable, and down to the ECJ.
And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
Personal - he said he wanted her chopped up in bags in his freezer.his obvious hatred undermines whatever true points he makes
It reads like something someone who has just binge watched a box set of Breaking Bad might say if they are trying to be a bit edgy. It's obviously a joke rather than a serious threat.
And his assessment of her has been proven spot on so it can't be that blinded by hate.
But a joke made because he hates her, it is relevant. He's right about plenty about her, but his hated needs to be noted when considering what he says. He's not always right just because bits are.
As I recall the A50 case had both sides accept A50 was irrevocable, although one of the judges noted there were legal experts who thought it might not be the case. It's probably arguable, and down to the ECJ.
Not at all. Numerous heads of government have said it would be revocable if we changed our minds. Even if it's not technically revocable it's practically revocable. The A50 period can be extended indefinitely by unanimity. You then deal with the revocability issue at the next treaty change.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
As I recall the A50 case had both sides accept A50 was irrevocable, although one of the judges noted there were legal experts who thought it might not be the case. It's probably arguable, and down to the ECJ.
Not at all. Numerous heads of government have said it would be revocable if we changed our minds. Even if it's not technically revocable it's practically revocable. The A50 period can be extended indefinitely by unanimity. You then deal with the revocability issue at the next treaty change.
If we change our minds we can stay.
If they want us to was my point - if someone argues the technicals, on our side or theirs, someome would need to rule, and that has to be the ECJ? Who I imagine would play ball, but it'd have to end up there if revocation was challenged on legal grounds I'd think.
BREAKING: Car sales across the UK fell by 9.3% in September.
That’s the sixth monthly decline in a row, and raises the real risk that British car registrations post their first annual decline since 2011.
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders blames a fall in consumer confidence, due to “economic and political uncertainty” and confusion over the government’s air quality plans
As this charts shows, it’s the first decline in September sales in six years.
Anyway in the last 18 hours my heart of Obsidian has melted slightly. I'm going to start praying Theresa May. I've never prayed for a politician before. I can't rationalise it but there seems something it uniquely tragic about her. She may be an evil old Banshee who ran an election campaign telling me I wasn't properly British but ...
It's a bit like writing an Amnesty International letter for a hideous murderer on the grounds of principle of the Death Penalty. She may utterly deserve what's coming too her and it will be hilarious. But nevertheless human beings deserve a core of compassion that escaped me yesterday. I will ask Our Lady of Lewisham to watch over her.
Don't worry, YS.
As soon as you gave unqualified backing to the EU Commission for the Spanish Government’s dreadful repression in Catalonia, you could sink no lower.
Could Europhobes please decide whether the problem is the EU interfering in member countries, or is it that they are not interfering?
i) The Tories are pensioners - average ages are within 10% of each other across the Parties ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems iii) Labour is a 'London/M25' Party - its the least represented in London/South East of the national parties. iv) The Tories are the London/South East Party - not when the Lib Dems have 60% of their members there. v) Labour is the Party of the young - really, with 16% of their members under 34 while the Tories have 14% and the LD's 20%?
Up to a point. Labour have about 5 times the membership of the other parties, so in the SE have more members than the Tories, albeit a smaller predominance than in the North.
The Tories do have a wider range of ages, but still very skewed. All parties seem to have a mode of white middle-aged, middle class men. Lab and SNP less so.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
A ) Remain on our current terms
B ) Leave on the proposed deal
C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit
Conducted under AV of course.
Conducted under AV because that's the only chance a Leave option would have of winning this particular vote imo. It's not going to happen though is it.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
I didn't say that their policy is "to protect democracy". They campaigned for Remain and are now campaigning for the results of the HMG/EU negotiation to be put to a new referendum rather than being decided by a vote in the House of Commons (as forced by the courts) or by Mrs May as she originally wanted. It seems to me that that is a valid thing for them to campaign for and if it came to pass would be more democratic than the alternative.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
I disagree. They are perfectly entitled to argue for a further referendum. After all, that's what the Europhobes did for 40 years.
The problem is most easily understood by imagining that Jezza had had a similar coughing fit. It would have been a minor point of interest but wouldn't have provoked questions about his leadership.
Very well put. The problem for the Tories is that the minor disasters in the speech are a perfect metaphor for the position of the Tory Party, Government and the country. Leadership is uncertain, organisation shambolic, policies unclear, people are not listening and there is a sense that the whole thing is falling apart. And its very hard to see a way forward which does not make things worse.
Here’s a stat for you, about the American criminal justice system, and why our extradition treaty with them needs repealing
Federal and state prosecutors win more than 90% of criminal cases without persuading a jury; defendants nearly always agree to plead guilty under threat of harsher punishment should they be convicted after opting for a trial.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
I disagree. They are perfectly entitled to argue for a further referendum. After all, that's what the Europhobes did for 40 years.
It's a fair point. One cam argue how soon is too soon for a new vote, but if they want to argue it fine.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
A ) Remain on our current terms
B ) Leave on the proposed deal
C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit
Conducted under AV of course.
Conducted under AV because that's the only chance a Leave option would have of winning this particular vote imo. It's not going to happen though is it.
Conducted by AV because that's how the intention of the voters can best be discerned.
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
i) The Tories are pensioners - average ages are within 10% of each other across the Parties ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems iii) Labour is a 'London/M25' Party - its the least represented in London/South East of the national parties. iv) The Tories are the London/South East Party - not when the Lib Dems have 60% of their members there. v) Labour is the Party of the young - really, with 16% of their members under 34 while the Tories have 14% and the LD's 20%?
Up to a point. Labour have about 5 times the membership of the other parties, so in the SE have more members than the Tories, albeit a smaller predominance than in the North.
The Tories do have a wider range of ages, but still very skewed. All parties seem to have a mode of white middle-aged, middle class men. Lab and SNP less so.
I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
Unfortunately it is the big story
The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.
Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
Brexit really did screw the country by hollowing out the Tory party at the top.
I think that's unfair but it certainly exposed the canker underneath. Both parties have been painfully short of talent for a long time. Those 2 were the exception.
TBH, that seems to be the case throughout the Western world. How many first rate politicians are there?
This is the political equivalent of 'music was better in the [whenever]' argument. We remember the quality and forget the dross (though there are better and worse periods). That said, politics is an increasingly unattractive career choice and I can understand why individuals of outstanding ability don't go for it - apart from the inherent chanciness of it, which has always been there, a rising cynicism and increased media and social media activity, combined with a rising workload (of candidates as well as MPs), will put off many who might be attracted to being an MP or minister (and might do a very good job as such), but who have little interest in delivering that eight thousandth leaflet.
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
Doesn’t the registration plate change on October 1st? Wouldn’t have thought it affected fleet sales, but......
Loosely related to the subject of Catalonia, there has been almost no comment on the fact that Lombardy and Veneto are holding referendums later this month on gaining further autonomy. It's not just Scotland and Catalonia where more local control is near the top of the agenda.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
The bigger error was taking on the Standard job. Not only did that of itself probably force him out but the way he's used it has meant that he has no political future. Had he left to do business and academic stuff, he'd be the King Over The Water, much as David Miliband was for Labour, for so long. After all, there are usually by-elections sooner or later.
I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
Unfortunately it is the big story
The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.
Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
But no one should want to be a government minister for the money
No, and I don't think they do. But the hassle - the inability to have a quiet life and the capacity for social media to intrude, for example - is far higher than it once was.
And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
The bigger error was taking on the Standard job. Not only did that of itself probably force him out but the way he's used it has meant that he has no political future. Had he left to do business and academic stuff, he'd be the King Over The Water, much as David Miliband was for Labour, for so long. After all, there are usually by-elections sooner or later.
Nah, he already knew his political career was over.
He’s a democrat and would respect the result but he couldn’t trash the economy whilst delivering the Brexit demanded by the vote.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
I'm an LD who voted LEAVE but that's more than a tad harsh. I certainly didn't detect Vince Cable saying he didn't "accept" the result. Yes, he disagreed with it as he has every right to and of course the Party would have been happier if REMAIN had won.
I would have been happier if the LDs had won 450 seats in the June GE but that doesn't mean I don't accept the result.
I'm in favour of a referendum on the A50 Treaty - the problem for the LDs is there is no provision for rejecting the Treaty and remaining within the EU.
We can either accept whatever hogwash the Government dishes up or crash out on WTO terms. That, put bluntly, is all we have as I understand it.
Once we formally leave the EU on 29/3/19, there's nothing stopping a political party (or parties) proposing we re-join the EU. The problem, again as I understand it, is we would have to join as a new member and have to agree to accept the Euro and presumably Schengen (though not necessarily from Day One in either case) and all the opt-outs and rebates would have to be re-negotiated (if they were available).
A more nuanced approach might be to argue for a re-negotiated A50 Treaty - I don't see why any future Government couldn't offer to re-negotiate aspects of the A50 Treaty to perhaps take more EU jurisdiction if it so chose.
The media is too fixated on the speech's delivery and the gaffes. For me the most disappointing part is that somehow 5000 council houses is the extent of the Tory vision on housing. We have ~250k a year net immigration !
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
Doesn’t the registration plate change on October 1st? Wouldn’t have thought it affected fleet sales, but......
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
Doesn’t the registration plate change on October 1st? Wouldn’t have thought it affected fleet sales, but......
Loosely related to the subject of Catalonia, there has been almost no comment on the fact that Lombardy and Veneto are holding referendums later this month on gaining further autonomy. It's not just Scotland and Catalonia where more local control is near the top of the agenda.
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
Doesn’t the registration plate change on October 1st? Wouldn’t have thought it affected fleet sales, but......
Reg plates changed on the 1st September so March and September are core months for "look at me in my NEW car" sales.
And the diesel crisis is definitely causing problems. It seems that the waiting time for a petrol VW can be 6 months depending on engine...
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
A ) Remain on our current terms
B ) Leave on the proposed deal
C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit
Conducted under AV of course.
Conducted under AV because that's the only chance a Leave option would have of winning this particular vote imo. It's not going to happen though is it.
Given yesterday's shambles, if the fallout from it gets worse, I am beginning to wonder if the EU will suspend A50 on the basis that we lack a govt.
We must be the comedy capital of the political world. Kim Jong-Un is beginning to look like a serious politician compared to our lot.
Utter rubbish ... Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
So, when the head of an industry group says "... that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit."
You want us to believe that either
1) You are better informed than him, or
2) He is making it up
In fairness, industry leaders probably make things up all the time. They as much as anyone else have a vested interest in blaming things other than themselves.
On top of today's very poor figures on new car registrations <
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
Utter rubbish - the car industry has trashed their reputation and Governments both here and in Europe have trashed diesel. The second hand value of diesels is collapsing and many deals depend on residual value at the end of the agreement which is now seriously under threat.
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
Doesn’t the registration plate change on October 1st? Wouldn’t have thought it affected fleet sales, but......
Think it is the 1st September
Just checked, and you’re right. Sorry. Doesn’t help to explain the fall in sales then.
Loosely related to the subject of Catalonia, there has been almost no comment on the fact that Lombardy and Veneto are holding referendums later this month on gaining further autonomy. It's not just Scotland and Catalonia where more local control is near the top of the agenda.
Legal votes I hope?
Yes and non-binding.
I suppose that could equally well be translated "advisory".
I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.
I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
I didn't say that their policy is "to protect democracy". They campaigned for Remain and are now campaigning for the results of the HMG/EU negotiation to be put to a new referendum rather than being decided by a vote in the House of Commons (as forced by the courts) or by Mrs May as she originally wanted. It seems to me that that is a valid thing for them to campaign for and if it came to pass would be more democratic than the alternative.
It's valid providing that the options in the referendum are legitimate. The Remain option is at best uncertain and quite possibly (very probably, IMO), impossible.
There are differing opinions on whether A50 is revocable. As such, unless or until the ECJ gives a ruling, no-one can know whether Remain is an option - and if it is, under what process.
Unless that question is clarified in advance, Remain should not be given as a choice in a second referendum.
I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.
I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.
Mr. Meeks, you beat me to it (I was actually doing a spot of work ).
Aren't those votes on increased autonomy rather than outright independence, though? (And legal, I think).
There was a map floating around Twitter of Europe if all secessionist movements succeeded, but it's rather dubious because it includes an independent Yorkshire. The number of people here who actually want independence is vanishingly small.
I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.
I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.
Loosely related to the subject of Catalonia, there has been almost no comment on the fact that Lombardy and Veneto are holding referendums later this month on gaining further autonomy. It's not just Scotland and Catalonia where more local control is near the top of the agenda.
Legal votes I hope?
Yes and non-binding.
I suppose that could equally well be translated "advisory".
I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
Unfortunately it is the big story
The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.
Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
Brexit really did screw the country by hollowing out the Tory party at the top.
I think that's unfair but it certainly exposed the canker underneath. Both parties have been painfully short of talent for a long time. Those 2 were the exception.
TBH, that seems to be the case throughout the Western world. How many first rate politicians are there?
This is the political equivalent of 'music was better in the [whenever]' argument. We remember the quality and forget the dross (though there are better and worse periods). That said, politics is an increasingly unattractive career choice and I can understand why individuals of outstanding ability don't go for it - apart from the inherent chanciness of it, which has always been there, a rising cynicism and increased media and social media activity, combined with a rising workload (of candidates as well as MPs), will put off many who might be attracted to being an MP or minister (and might do a very good job as such), but who have little interest in delivering that eight thousandth leaflet.
Not to mention that you have to censor yourself the whole time, lest you be accused of a split, a gaffe, or upset the professionally offended.
I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.
BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.
Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.
Vote for NOTA!
"The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."
That's factually incorrect. As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
Depends whet the question is. Could be: Do you a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules) b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
c) Run this referendum under AV
Yes, I agree with TSE who put it much better than I did:
A ) Remain on our current terms
B ) Leave on the proposed deal
C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit
Conducted under AV of course.
Conducted under AV because that's the only chance a Leave option would have of winning this particular vote imo. It's not going to happen though is it.
Given yesterday's shambles, if the fallout from it gets worse, I am beginning to wonder if the EU will suspend A50 on the basis that we lack a govt.
We must be the comedy capital of the political world. Kim Jong-Un is beginning to look like a serious politician compared to our lot.
Not sure about Kim Jong Un - the later stages of the French fourth republic seems a better comparison. Weak, unstable governments trying to do something extremely difficult (hold on to Algeria/leave the EU) which arouse passionate emotions and about which views are deeply divided.
Mr. Meeks, you beat me to it (I was actually doing a spot of work ).
Aren't those votes on increased autonomy rather than outright independence, though? (And legal, I think).
There was a map floating around Twitter of Europe if all secessionist movements succeeded, but it's rather dubious because it includes an independent Yorkshire. The number of people here who actually want independence is vanishingly small.
As we transition to a federal Europe these microstates and a more localised expression of nationalism (for those that care for that sort of nonsense) will become viable. Obviously, Yorkshire wouldn't be a viable country (I don't think there are enough jails in Yorkshire to lock up all the noncing minicab drivers for a start) right now but it would be perfectly feasibly under the aegis of a federal EU with the superstate handling foreign affairs, defence, etc. Only downside: possible re-entry of Leeds United into the Champions' League.
I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.
I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.
So Vince isn't in favour of a second referendum with an option to stay? If that's the case, I apologise.
If he is, then apart from being bad UK politics, it greatly encourages the EU to give no ground whatsoever in negotiations.
No, I'm sure the LDs want a referendum on the outcome of the A50 negotiations (calling it a "second" referendum makes it sound like an exact repeat of the first which it isn't).
So do I.
The problem is there is no provision within the A50 process for an option to remain within the EU. We have triggered A50 - we will leave on 29/3/19. The referendum would only be about the terms on which we leave which are either the A50 treaty as put forward by the Government or to leave without an agreement and all that entails.
That's why calling it a "second referendum" is disingenuous. It's not about whether we leave or remain within the EU - that has been settled - but the basis on which we depart - agreed treaty or crash out to WTO.
Mr. Meeks, you beat me to it (I was actually doing a spot of work ).
Aren't those votes on increased autonomy rather than outright independence, though? (And legal, I think).
There was a map floating around Twitter of Europe if all secessionist movements succeeded, but it's rather dubious because it includes an independent Yorkshire. The number of people here who actually want independence is vanishingly small.
As we transition to a federal Europe these microstates and a more localised expression of nationalism (for those that care for that sort of nonsense) will become viable. Obviously, Yorkshire wouldn't be a viable country (I don't think there are enough jails in Yorkshire to lock up all the noncing minicab drivers for a start) right now but it would be perfectly feasibly under the aegis of a federal EU with the superstate handling foreign affairs, defence, etc. Only downside: possible re-entry of Leeds United into the Champions' League.
We are not transitioning to a federal Europe. We are leaving - and I very much doubt there will ever be a federal Europe
So Vince isn't in favour of a second referendum with an option to stay? If that's the case, I apologise.
If he is, then apart from being bad UK politics, it greatly encourages the EU to give no ground whatsoever in negotiations.
No, I'm sure the LDs want a referendum on the outcome of the A50 negotiations (calling it a "second" referendum makes it sound like an exact repeat of the first which it isn't).
So do I.
The problem is there is no provision within the A50 process for an option to remain within the EU. We have triggered A50 - we will leave on 29/3/19. The referendum would only be about the terms on which we leave which are either the A50 treaty as put forward by the Government or to leave without an agreement and all that entails.
That's why calling it a "second referendum" is disingenuous. It's not about whether we leave or remain within the EU - that has been settled - but the basis on which we depart - agreed treaty or crash out to WTO.
Politics is The Art of The Possible - and of course it's possible for the UK to stay in the EU if that is what is wanted.
"Key European figures this week dropped the biggest hints yet, that the European Union would allow Britain to delay or cancel Brexit altogether by reversing Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty." http://uk.businessinsider.com/can-brexit-be-reversed-2017-6
So Vince isn't in favour of a second referendum with an option to stay? If that's the case, I apologise.
If he is, then apart from being bad UK politics, it greatly encourages the EU to give no ground whatsoever in negotiations.
No, I'm sure the LDs want a referendum on the outcome of the A50 negotiations (calling it a "second" referendum makes it sound like an exact repeat of the first which it isn't).
So do I.
The problem is there is no provision within the A50 process for an option to remain within the EU. We have triggered A50 - we will leave on 29/3/19. The referendum would only be about the terms on which we leave which are either the A50 treaty as put forward by the Government or to leave without an agreement and all that entails.
That's why calling it a "second referendum" is disingenuous. It's not about whether we leave or remain within the EU - that has been settled - but the basis on which we depart - agreed treaty or crash out to WTO.
So there 'is' no referendum then. Why woulf anyone campaign to give people what they see as a 'bad' option, and a terrible 'option.
I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
Unfortunately it is the big story
The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.
Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
But no one should want to be a government minister for the money
No, and I don't think they do. But the hassle - the inability to have a quiet life and the capacity for social media to intrude, for example - is far higher than it once was.
I think that is correct. Take a politician I very much don't like.
George Osborne.
I remember him being hassled for travelling first-class & buying a ticket upgrade on the train or parking inconsiderately in a motorway service station.
Hordes of guffawing and cackling journalists seem to delight in every slip a politician makes.
I don't like George Osborne, but he was doing nothing wrong in those two instances.
24 hour rolling news has made the life of a politician unbearable.
Comments
Maybe you could check if that's the case before promoting a referendum which might be illegitimate?
Brexit deters investment in UK car industry
SMMT chief Mike Hawes also warns that car manufacturers are putting off new investment until they know what’s happening with Brexit.
Hawes says Britain’s auto industry enjoyed a “tremendous run” of investment, around £2.5bn per year for the last five years.
But.... investment fell by a third in 2016, and is “down markedly again this year, Hawes says.
He blames uncertainty over Britain’s exit from the European Union:
“People are waiting to see what the future relationship with our biggest market, Europe, is going to be before making any additional investment.”
So we leave without a deal - which seems likely if the EU leave Barnier and Juncker in place.
What would we be voting about? We didn't vote conditionally. No one asked me "Should we leave only if we get a nice deal?" We voted to leave, no matter how the LDs wriggle.
Sensible politicians know trying to thwart it would cause chaos. Even blocking the illegal referendum in Spain will cause a lot of trouble and make things worse.
The Tories do have a wider range of ages, but still very skewed. All parties seem to have a mode of white middle-aged, middle class men. Lab and SNP less so.
I doubt whether anybody knows at the moment, although didn't the guy who wrote it say it would be possible?
If it were in everybody's interest to make it possible, the politicians should be able to make it possible.
And his assessment of her has been proven spot on so it can't be that blinded by hate.
I've had a read of the Prime Minister's speech. To be honest, it's fairly unremarkable stuff - part pep talk, part end of term report, part rabble-rousing rhetoric. It is interesting to see the Miliband proposal on energy bills being largely adopted but much of the rest of it could have been said by any British Prime Minister.
I do find it curious regarding the Conservative obsession with home ownership. It doesn't seem to be such an issue in other parts of the world. There's nothing wrong with renting or choosing to rent and there's also nothing wrong with an active, properly-regulated private rental sector.
It's interesting both May and Corbyn have placed housing after Brexit as the leading policy issue of the day but we also know it isn't just about building houses but building communities and the infrastructure supporting them.
As an example, the proposal to redevelop the site of Kempton Park racecourse suggests 3.500 homes. That means in effect 10,000 new people and the services for these people - GPs, schools, community centres along with the practicalities of drainage, sewerage and how Spelthorne Council will handle the additional refuse collection as examples.
Simply building vast estates of houses with the most rudimentary of infrastructure is pointless - housing needs planning and that's what hasn't happened.
A ) Remain on our current terms
B ) Leave on the proposed deal
C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit
Conducted under AV of course.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/can-brexit-be-reversed-2017-6
If we change our minds we can stay.
Are you really suggesting that the LD's policy is to protect democracy? Some sort of honest broker? Really?
They disagreed with the result. They have never accepted it. Had we voted to remain, they would have hailed it as a triumph of democracy. Hypocrisy is a common political trait, but they are taking the piss.
I voted LD from 2001 to 2010, and I'm embarrassed for them.
BREAKING: Car sales across the UK fell by 9.3% in September.
That’s the sixth monthly decline in a row, and raises the real risk that British car registrations post their first annual decline since 2011.
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders blames a fall in consumer confidence, due to “economic and political uncertainty” and confusion over the government’s air quality plans
As this charts shows, it’s the first decline in September sales in six years.
They campaigned for Remain and are now campaigning for the results of the HMG/EU negotiation to be put to a new referendum rather than being decided by a vote in the House of Commons (as forced by the courts) or by Mrs May as she originally wanted.
It seems to me that that is a valid thing for them to campaign for and if it came to pass would be more democratic than the alternative.
Federal and state prosecutors win more than 90% of criminal cases without persuading a jury; defendants nearly always agree to plead guilty under threat of harsher punishment should they be convicted after opting for a trial.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gorsuch-joins-courts-liberals-over-protections-for-criminal-defendants-1507155781
Why would anyone want to buy a car at present in this climate. Blaming Brexit is the scapegoat to divert attention behind the real issues.
The same thing happened with Monarch when the real reason was the collapse in the tourist markets in Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia following the terrorism and long before the pounds reduction in value
A. He is the Foreign Secretary.
Gets coat.
Priceless
"I disagree. They are perfectly entitled to argue for a further referendum. After all, that's what the Europhobes did for 40 years."
I agree. They argue they were lied to. We know we were in 1975.
So that's a new referendum pencilled in for 2056. I'll be 106, but I'll see you at the polling station.
You want us to believe that either
1) You are better informed than him, or
2) He is making it up
He’s a democrat and would respect the result but he couldn’t trash the economy whilst delivering the Brexit demanded by the vote.
I would have been happier if the LDs had won 450 seats in the June GE but that doesn't mean I don't accept the result.
I'm in favour of a referendum on the A50 Treaty - the problem for the LDs is there is no provision for rejecting the Treaty and remaining within the EU.
We can either accept whatever hogwash the Government dishes up or crash out on WTO terms. That, put bluntly, is all we have as I understand it.
Once we formally leave the EU on 29/3/19, there's nothing stopping a political party (or parties) proposing we re-join the EU. The problem, again as I understand it, is we would have to join as a new member and have to agree to accept the Euro and presumably Schengen (though not necessarily from Day One in either case) and all the opt-outs and rebates would have to be re-negotiated (if they were available).
A more nuanced approach might be to argue for a re-negotiated A50 Treaty - I don't see why any future Government couldn't offer to re-negotiate aspects of the A50 Treaty to perhaps take more EU jurisdiction if it so chose.
Story was that he died, and ITV offered to help with the funeral but wouldn’t pay for the coughing.
And the diesel crisis is definitely causing problems. It seems that the waiting time for a petrol VW can be 6 months depending on engine...
We must be the comedy capital of the political world. Kim Jong-Un is beginning to look like a serious politician compared to our lot.
We're you at Conference this year?
The drop in car sales is not related to an issue on clarification of Brexit for the car industry's future investment plans
I suppose that could equally well be translated "advisory".
Does anyone know/have a link to the price of a litre of petrol at the pump at the time of 2000 fuel protests ?
So Vince isn't in favour of a second referendum with an option to stay? If that's the case, I apologise.
If he is, then apart from being bad UK politics, it greatly encourages the EU to give no ground whatsoever in negotiations.
There are differing opinions on whether A50 is revocable. As such, unless or until the ECJ gives a ruling, no-one can know whether Remain is an option - and if it is, under what process.
Unless that question is clarified in advance, Remain should not be given as a choice in a second referendum.
Aren't those votes on increased autonomy rather than outright independence, though? (And legal, I think).
There was a map floating around Twitter of Europe if all secessionist movements succeeded, but it's rather dubious because it includes an independent Yorkshire. The number of people here who actually want independence is vanishingly small.
The next polls and best PM figures will be interesting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom
Confirmed by the Graun of the day:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2000/nov/14/oil.julianglover
(Note - one factor in the crisis was oil rising to - shock - $35/barrel).
So do I.
The problem is there is no provision within the A50 process for an option to remain within the EU. We have triggered A50 - we will leave on 29/3/19. The referendum would only be about the terms on which we leave which are either the A50 treaty as put forward by the Government or to leave without an agreement and all that entails.
That's why calling it a "second referendum" is disingenuous. It's not about whether we leave or remain within the EU - that has been settled - but the basis on which we depart - agreed treaty or crash out to WTO.
So, I want the most technically competent and resilient PM possible to steer us through and out the other side.
We'll then have to pick up whatever mess Corbyn/McDonnell makes and fix that thereafter, hopefully after only 5 years, but it might be 10 years sadly.
That for me gives two choices to replace TM: Jeremy Hunt, and Michael Gove.
No, neither are popular. But I think we're past that now. The Tories best hope is competence.
If you're correct, I apologise.
But in that case, I see little point in another referendum. Government position or WTO? Who cares? would win.
"Key European figures this week dropped the biggest hints yet, that the European Union would allow Britain to delay or cancel Brexit altogether by reversing Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty."
http://uk.businessinsider.com/can-brexit-be-reversed-2017-6
That makes no sense.
I love my salmon pink and blue shirt.
George Osborne.
I remember him being hassled for travelling first-class & buying a ticket upgrade on the train or parking inconsiderately in a motorway service station.
Hordes of guffawing and cackling journalists seem to delight in every slip a politician makes.
I don't like George Osborne, but he was doing nothing wrong in those two instances.
24 hour rolling news has made the life of a politician unbearable.