Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TSE on Thatcher

SystemSystem Posts: 12,059
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TSE on Thatcher

Growing up in 1980s South Yorkshire, I was used to hearing abusive things said about Margaret Thatcher, particularly in the aftermath of the miners’ strike.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited April 2013
    I'd like to be 1st. To say nothing.
    P/S Yes, thanks for the thoughts TSE.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Thanks for the article, TSE.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    edited April 2013
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100211149/its-time-to-reflect-on-how-margaret-thatcher-changed-britain-for-the-better/

    'The death of Lady Thatcher will have immediate political consequences for David Cameron and the Conservatives. The tributes to her memory and the recollections of her achievements will remind the party not just of what it has lost, but of what it lacks.'
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    Excellent article, Mr TSE
  • Loads of people opposed her for how socially divisive she was in the 80's, although much of this seems to be airbrushed out of history given how most people are speaking about her.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    @alanbrooke

    I was really referring to the reforms in terms of you not mentioning them for Asquith.

    As for Lloyd George, he was the one negotiating the aftermath of WWI (and with Wilson and Clemenceau pulling in opposite directions had an important role). His actions crippled the Liberal party and changed the dynamic of British politics by catapulting Labour into major party status, widened voting massively, partition of Ireland, women's role in society.

    Beyond that his social reforms after the war were pretty massive (although a number were later pushed back by the Conservative governments).

    Plenty of impact.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    @JosiasJessop (FPT): I think you're right that 10 years is the maximum that someone can sensibly be in power. By then, they start to believe their own propaganda and/or take their eye off the ball.

    Plus however good their policies, they are not very good at identifying - let alone dealing with - the problems their own policies may have created. So, for instance, while it was right for Thatcher to deal with overmanned inefficient nationalised industries, she was much less successful at dealing with or mitigating the human cost of the same policies. The very toughness which was needed led to the harsh, uncaring tone which so grated, however necessary the medecine.

    Maybe what is needed is a deputy or other heavyweight to provide the qualities which the PM lacks.
    Quote
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    edited April 2013
    A reasonable tribute TSE. My own feeling is that history will judge her much more harshly for not only the damage to individuals and families but to a whole ethos which has taken years to clear out of the system and which was epitomized by the banking crisis which her policies of individual and corporate greed set in train.

    My feeling is that Blair will be judged to have presided over much bigger and more lasting social changes where we became a more caring and compassionate society.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Well written, TSE, FPT, The Economist on Thatcher:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2013/04/margaret-thatcher

    "On the world stage, too, Mrs Thatcher continues to cast a long shadow. Her combination of ideological certainty and global prominence ensured that Britain played a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union that was disproportionate to its weight in the world. Mrs Thatcher was the first British politician since Winston Churchill to be taken seriously by the leaders of all the major powers. She was a heroine to opposition politicians in eastern Europe. Her willingness to stand shoulder to shoulder with “dear Ronnie” to block Soviet expansionism helped to promote new thinking in the Kremlin. But her insistence that Mikhail Gorbachev was a man with whom the West could do business also helped to end the cold war."

    On the previous thread there was a discussion between SeanT and SO on "Thatcher vs Atlee" - on the domestic front, it would be difficult to settle precedence - both left a changed country behind them, both starting from atrocious circumstances.

    On the international front, Atlee was the PM of what was, at the time still considered a "Great Power", while Thatcher was PM of "the sick man of Europe" who still managed to wield the influence no country other than a great power could do. Under Thatcher, Britain punched very considerably above its weight.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    I know you couldn't wait...but I am back with the final 2 Labour Euro shortlists

    Scotland

    David Martin and Catherine Stihler reselected by Labour

    New candidates to be ranked:

    Asim Khan
    Derek Munn (Director of Policy & Public Affairs at the Royal College of Speech & Language Therapist, former Director of Public Affairs at Stonewall, former SpAd to Labour, former NUS Scotland president)
    Katrina Murray (2010 Dundee East candidate, former wife of Steven Purcell)
    Kirsty O'Brien (Euro candidate in 2004, former SpAd at Equality and Human Rights Commission, also worked at Labour Head of Policy Development)

    Third spot will go the highest polling candidate regardless of gender and then gender alternance untill the bottom of the list.

    West Midlands

    Michael Cashman is retiring

    New candidates

    Claire Edwards (Rugby Cllr)
    Neena Gill (former MEP)
    Olwen Hamer (Stoke Cllr)
    Lynda Waltho (former Stourbridge MP)
    Ansar Ali-Khan (Birmingham Cllr)
    Anthony Ethapemi (former Brent council candidate)
    Sion Simon (former Erdington MP)

    Top spot will go to the winner of the women ballot. Then winner of male ballot. Then runner up woman, runner up man and so on.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    My feeling is that Blair will be judged to have presided over much bigger and more lasting changes where we became a more caring compassionate society.

    Roger, we both know Blair's epitaph will be one word - "Iraq".

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    edited April 2013
    "Roger, we both know Blair's epitaph will be one word - "Iraq"."

    Thatcher's by contrast will be 'no such thing as society' which so far people have been too generous to mention. My own would be much more unkind which is why it's inappropriate for today when one should only look for the positives...

    For me that was becoming the first woman Prime Minister in the most sexist party in the country.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Well written, TSE, FPT, The Economist on Thatcher:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2013/04/margaret-thatcher

    "On the world stage, too, Mrs Thatcher continues to cast a long shadow. Her combination of ideological certainty and global prominence ensured that Britain played a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union that was disproportionate to its weight in the world. Mrs Thatcher was the first British politician since Winston Churchill to be taken seriously by the leaders of all the major powers. She was a heroine to opposition politicians in eastern Europe. Her willingness to stand shoulder to shoulder with “dear Ronnie” to block Soviet expansionism helped to promote new thinking in the Kremlin. But her insistence that Mikhail Gorbachev was a man with whom the West could do business also helped to end the cold war."

    On the previous thread there was a discussion between SeanT and SO on "Thatcher vs Atlee" - on the domestic front, it would be difficult to settle precedence - both left a changed country behind them, both starting from atrocious circumstances.

    On the international front, Atlee was the PM of what was, at the time still considered a "Great Power", while Thatcher was PM of "the sick man of Europe" who still managed to wield the influence no country other than a great power could do. Under Thatcher, Britain punched very considerably above its weight.

    Richard Nabavi got it right at the end of the last thread. What happened between 1979 and 1990 was much more about Thatcher's personal drive, vision and uncompromising nature, than what happened between 1945 and 1951 was about Attlee. You could have an argument over which government was the greater and I suspect that your answer would come down to political opinion; but as an individual political leader Thatcher achieved much more: she was the face of her government and had to beat down a great deal of internal opposition over many issues. Attlee essentially chaired a cabinet and left his ministers to get on with what was basically a collectively agreed set of policies.

    All that said, Thatcher was far more visible than Attlee ever could have been. There was no TV, there were no interviews, the Commons was only reported through the papers and Hansard. It was much more difficult to be the kind of figure Thatcher was in Attlee's time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    @Roger: I think Blair will be seen as someone who wasted his political gifts. Blair's domestic legacy is what Brown has done. Blair will be remembered for Iraq, alas, and domestically as insubstantial as Wilson, another largely forgotten successful Labour PM.

    Even now, barely 6 years laters, he is largely written out of Labour's history and has left no meaningful legacy for Labour to follow. EdM is - for good or ill - following his own course.

    Whereas Thatcher's legacy - both within the Tory party and more generally - is still around. In some ways, while she achieved much for the country she hollowed out the Tory party in a way that the party still hasn't recovered from.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited April 2013
    People are writing some spectacularly stupid things about Thatcher, even if they abstain from personal hate. This piece of lunacy caught my eye from the BBC live blog:

    Writer and comedian Alexei Sayle told the BBC: "She made a conscious decision to run down manufacturing and concentrate on two areas which were arms manufacture and financial services."

    The extraordinary thing is that people honestly seem to believe this sort of utter garbage.

    Where do they get it from?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    Thatcher's by contrast will be 'no such thing as society' which so far people have been too generous to mention

    Or quote selectively, as you have done.

    The full quote:

    They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

    Good timing as Labour look to reinforce the contributory concept to benefits. "We are all Thatcher's children."
  • Hobbes67Hobbes67 Posts: 1
    Roger said:

    A reasonable tribute TSE. My own feeling is that history will judge her much more harshly for not only the damage to individuals and families but to a whole ethos which has taken years to clear out of the system and which was epitomized by the banking crisis which her policies of individual and corporate greed set in train.

    Compare what happened to the banking sector in the 1980s under that regulation system and what happened under Blair and Brown. Neither were bankers in and out of Downing Street and the Treasury the whole time.

    This general idea that Thatcher was all about selfishness entirely ignores the fact that it was precisely selfishness - the selfishness of the unions - that her early years were railing against. The whole critique of Labour in the 1979 manifesto is that is so bound to this selfishness that it 'dare not govern in the national interest'. Of course, it's not the only selfishness that has abounded in British politics over the last fifty years and it is disingenuous to think that much of the time there is a national interest that transcends distributional conflict, but this idea that selfishness is what Thatcher was about and opposed to her were the forces of compassion, altruism and empathy is just hog wash.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    People are writing some spectacularly stupid things about Thatcher, even if they abstain from personal hate. This piece of lunacy caught my eye from the BBC live blog:

    Writer and comedian Alexei Sayle told the BBC: "She made a conscious decision to run down manufacturing and concentrate on two areas which were arms manufacture and financial services."

    The extraordinary thing is that people honestly seem to believe this sort of utter garbage.

    Where do they get it from?

    People believe what they want to believe.

    Many are utterly convinced that the reason immigration rose after 1997 is because Labour wanted to import voters; ditto with benefits spending.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    RIP our greatest Prime Minister since Churchill.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246
    corporeal said:

    @alanbrooke

    I was really referring to the reforms in terms of you not mentioning them for Asquith.

    As for Lloyd George, he was the one negotiating the aftermath of WWI (and with Wilson and Clemenceau pulling in opposite directions had an important role). His actions crippled the Liberal party and changed the dynamic of British politics by catapulting Labour into major party status, widened voting massively, partition of Ireland, women's role in society.

    Beyond that his social reforms after the war were pretty massive (although a number were later pushed back by the Conservative governments).

    Plenty of impact.

    Impact yes, but more than the others ? And while you are correct on Asquith as PM his disastrous decision of August 1914 drove all the economic, foreign policy and social changes of the next 75 years. If he had sat it out we would have been a much different country and probably had a lot more Liberal governments.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    I'd place Margaret Thatcher right at the top. In the Nelson/Victoria/Wellington league. Magnificent woman and life.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,610
    edited April 2013

    Roger said:

    Thatcher's by contrast will be 'no such thing as society' which so far people have been too generous to mention

    Or quote selectively, as you have done.

    The full quote:

    They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

    Good timing as Labour look to reinforce the contributory concept to benefits. "We are all Thatcher's children."
    Sounds a lot like Labours new policy on benefits.

    Edit - just realised you posted the exact same thing on the bottom of your post. Sorry, I blame my acute tiredness!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    Can't help but think of my grandfather today. Born in the same year, but unfortunately died of brain tumour in 1987 not long after she won.

    If they've ended up in the same place and they have the chance there will be quite an argument going on right now.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    @TSE

    TSE, I'm a couple of years older than you. Maggie resigned when I was 15.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,551
    @Cyclefree

    "Plus however good their policies, they are not very good at identifying - let alone dealing with - the problems their own policies may have created."

    An excellent point. There could be a number of reasons for this: arrogance (the downsides of my policies are being overstated by my enemies), or perhaps a growing detachment with what is happening on the ground in the country.

    Nick Palmer recently commented that he spent some time getting to know the lives of his constituents and their problems when standing to become an MP (I hope I've got that right, Nick). I see little way even the best person can continue doing that whilst having to deal with the big picture for a decade. In that decade, the lives, lifestyles, concerns and hopes of the 'average' person will have moved on considerably. And the PMs lieutenants are probably more concerned with their own position and ambition than in telling the PM the reality on the ground, if they know themselves after having been sucked up by the governmental machine.

    Still, every PM of my lifetime has been better at the job than I'd ever be. As I've always said: "It'd all be different if I was in charge. Worse, but different."
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:

    @alanbrooke

    I was really referring to the reforms in terms of you not mentioning them for Asquith.

    As for Lloyd George, he was the one negotiating the aftermath of WWI (and with Wilson and Clemenceau pulling in opposite directions had an important role). His actions crippled the Liberal party and changed the dynamic of British politics by catapulting Labour into major party status, widened voting massively, partition of Ireland, women's role in society.

    Beyond that his social reforms after the war were pretty massive (although a number were later pushed back by the Conservative governments).

    Plenty of impact.

    Impact yes, but more than the others ? And while you are correct on Asquith as PM his disastrous decision of August 1914 drove all the economic, foreign policy and social changes of the next 75 years. If he had sat it out we would have been a much different country and probably had a lot more Liberal governments.
    I suspect so, I mean there's an old question of pre-eminence in history, whether something being earlier making it inherently more important. LG easily had as much influence over the decline of the Liberal party as Asquith did.

    The partition of Ireland is him literally re-shaping Britain, would another PM have let the whole island go, or fought on to try and keep it? Women not only gained the vote under his premiership, but also became eligible for jury duty and many other elements of civil life. Given your focus on WWI I'm surprised you don't rate LG's role in the post-war conferences as more important?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    SeanT said:

    I'm actually amazed, a few sad mutants on Twitter aside, by the gushing and eulogistic nature of the Thatcherdeath coverage. On the BBC its 90% fawning.

    Remarkable. I thought this day would bring out zillions of lefties carousing and gloating. I was looking forward to it. Yet they are subdued.

    An unexpected decency? Or a sense that she really was quite impressive, now we have seen the sequels and alternatives?

    I suspect both.

    I feel your pain.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Cyclefree said:

    @Roger: I think Blair will be seen as someone who wasted his political gifts. Blair's domestic legacy is what Brown has done. Blair will be remembered for Iraq, alas, and domestically as insubstantial as Wilson, another largely forgotten successful Labour PM.

    Even now, barely 6 years laters, he is largely written out of Labour's history and has left no meaningful legacy for Labour to follow. EdM is - for good or ill - following his own course.

    Whereas Thatcher's legacy - both within the Tory party and more generally - is still around. In some ways, while she achieved much for the country she hollowed out the Tory party in a way that the party still hasn't recovered from.

    I think it's indisputable that Thatcher's influence after leaving office was damaging for the Tories. She fomented rebellion against Major and came close to endorsing Blair before 1997. She then intervened in the Tory leadership contest to ensure that Kenneth Clarke did not win, thus paving the way for Blair's second landslide victory in 2001. She provided - and still provides - a rallying point for Tories who are unable to accept that she was deposed because the country had tired of her and believe (largely incorrectly) that Cameron and co are betraying her legacy. She fostered myths about her time in office and seemed oblivious to the difficulties these caused for her successors.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    FPT @tim

    Tories always overcompensate for their guilt in removing Margaret.

    There can be no overcompensation, tim.

    I am minded of the words written by the second greatest Briton of all time:

    If you have tears, prepare to shed them now.
    You all do know this mantle: I remember
    The first time ever Marg'ret put it on;
    'Twas on a summer's evening, in her tent,
    That day she overcame the IRA:
    Look, in this place ran Hezza's dagger through:
    See what a rent the envious Meyer made:
    Through this the well-beloved Geoffrey stabb'd;
    And as he pluck'd his cursed steel away,
    Mark how the blood of Marg'ret follow'd it,
    As rushing out of doors, to be resolved
    If Geoffrey so unkindly knock'd, or no;
    For Geoffrey, as you know, was Marg'ret's angel:
    Judge, O you gods, how dearly Marg'ret loved him!
    This was the most unkindest cut of all;
    For when the noble Marg'ret saw him stab,
    Ingratitude, more strong than traitors' arms,
    Quite vanquish'd her: then burst her mighty heart;
    And, in her mantle muffling up her face,
    Even at the base of Winston's statua,
    Which all the while ran blood, great Marg'ret fell.
    O, what a fall was there, my countrymen!
    Then I, and you, and all of us fell down,
    Whilst bloody treason flourish'd over us.
    O, now you weep; and, I perceive, you feel
    The dint of pity: these are gracious drops.
    Kind souls, what, weep you when you but behold
    Our Marg'ret's vesture wounded? Look you here,
    Here is herself, marr'd, as you see, with traitors.


    Now you may ask with good reason "What cuts?".

    [Third time posted. I seem to have lost the current thread in my grief.]
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    It's ironic that a right-wing party gave the UK our first and so far only female PM. Also on a global level, one of the earliest lady PMs who wasn't related to a previous incumbent (eg. daughter, wife/widow).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Following the death of Baroness Thatcher today there is no doubt that she inspired strong feelings on either side but, as well as being the first female PM, she was also, along with Attlee, the most significant PM since the war, and in that sense her place in history is assured!
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    Not the greatest fan of Thatcher, especially the tacit support she gave the vile apartheid regime in South Africa. However, she was a conviction politician and for that she should be respected.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Cher fans in a panic:

    *Face palm* RT @BuzzFeedNews Cher fans are melting down because of this hashtag: #nowthatchersdead. Cher is not dead.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I suspect the next time we see all these lefties spluttering and foaming at the mouth on twitter etc will be when uncle Tone passes away.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Among many of tributes to Thatcher from world leaders and politicians past and present comes this one from Marco Rubio:

    I join Margaret Thatcher’s family and the British people in mourning the loss of one of the 20th century’s most consequential leaders.

    From a young age, Margaret Thatcher understood what limited government and free enterprise could do for people and helped modernize Great Britain’s economy. Her passion for freedom and in advocating for the dignity of people trapped behind communism’s Iron Curtain helped bring about the Soviet Union’s end.

    As someone who grew up in the Ronald Reagan era, I admired the special bond he had with Margaret Thatcher. Through her work with Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher helped deepen and solidify the special relationship between our two countries, which continues to benefit both nations to this day.

    We have lost a great leader, but Margaret Thatcher’s memory and legacy will always live on through the leadership lessons that defined her career. May God bless Margaret Thatcher and provide comfort to her family and those who admired her in Britain and around the world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Mitt Romney too

    History will enshrine Margaret Thatcher as a transformational leader who helped defeat communism, promote freedom, and bring hope to the oppressed. Her penetrating words and compelling vision will last for generations.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Thatcher's by contrast will be 'no such thing as society' which so far people have been too generous to mention

    Or quote selectively, as you have done.

    The full quote:

    They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

    Good timing as Labour look to reinforce the contributory concept to benefits. "We are all Thatcher's children."
    Sounds a lot like Labours new policy on benefits.

    Edit - just realised you posted the exact same thing on the bottom of your post. Sorry, I blame my acute tiredness!
    Sounds a lot like Tony Blair's "Rights and responsibilities" speech that heralded the last government's welfare reforms. It's not often commented that Lord Freud represents a line of continuity from that Blair speech through to today's disability benefit changes.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246
    corporeal said:

    corporeal said:

    @alanbrooke

    I was really referring to the reforms in terms of you not mentioning them for Asquith.

    As for Lloyd George, he was the one negotiating the aftermath of WWI (and with Wilson and Clemenceau pulling in opposite directions had an important role). His actions crippled the Liberal party and changed the dynamic of British politics by catapulting Labour into major party status, widened voting massively, partition of Ireland, women's role in society.

    Beyond that his social reforms after the war were pretty massive (although a number were later pushed back by the Conservative governments).

    Plenty of impact.

    Impact yes, but more than the others ? And while you are correct on Asquith as PM his disastrous decision of August 1914 drove all the economic, foreign policy and social changes of the next 75 years. If he had sat it out we would have been a much different country and probably had a lot more Liberal governments.
    I suspect so, I mean there's an old question of pre-eminence in history, whether something being earlier making it inherently more important. LG easily had as much influence over the decline of the Liberal party as Asquith did.

    The partition of Ireland is him literally re-shaping Britain, would another PM have let the whole island go, or fought on to try and keep it? Women not only gained the vote under his premiership, but also became eligible for jury duty and many other elements of civil life. Given your focus on WWI I'm surprised you don't rate LG's role in the post-war conferences as more important?
    I focus on WW1 because it set all the events of the next 75 years in train:

    - it practically bankrupted the UK and accelerated the rise of the US as the predominant power
    - WW1 was the cause of WW2, increasingly they are being seen as two rounds of the same war
    - WW1 led to massive social changes including the rise of the left ( encouraged by communism in Russia ), the emergence of women in society as they became the workforce ( the suffragettes were more like mumsnet poshos in big hats ), the destruction of the higher echelons of UK class through a lack of deference from the trenches and in many cases outright death and no succession, the soldiers demands for accelerated social change
    - it set the Empire on the road to decay

    While all the subsequent changes in UK society would no doubt have been achievable WW1 broke so many boundaries that it accelerated the social changes in the UK, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Andreas Whittam Smith has written a personal recollection for the Independent:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/a-heroine-and-a-hate-figure-indifference-wasnt-an-option-when-it-came-to-lady-thatcher-8564563.html

    He takes the opportunity to laud her views on the EU. The Independent goes Eurosceptic? Truly the world has turned upside down.
  • Good piece, TSE.

    Following today's tributes, news reviews and old footage has been like a super history lesson covering the last fourty years. Made me feel very privileged to have lived through such interesting times.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    F1: markets appear to be up on Betfair and Ladbrokes.

    I think that as well as qualifying and the race, practice will be live on BBC2 (although that will be very early in the morning). By chance, I caught a snippet of MotoGP the other day. Quite good to watch, I thought.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    SeanT said:

    Ah f*ck it. I'm almost in tears now.

    Yes, go on, laugh. Sneer. Chortle!

    But whether YOU liked her or not, hated her or not, for me she was the only politician in my lifetime I have completely and sincerely admired, and the only politician who, in my opinion, utterly delivered what she promised. She made my country a much better, much prouder place.

    Feck it. Middle aged man in Thailand nearly crying over the death of a demented old woman. But there we are.

    God bless her.

    Sean, she criticised Callaghan for being the "Prime Minister of unemployment" and produced the famous "Labour isn't working" poster with employment in the region of 1.4 million and doubled it in the next couple of years.

    (It came down later in her premiership, and you can make a good case of the necessity of it etc. But the difference between campaign promises and government was a big as it gets.)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm actually amazed, a few sad mutants on Twitter aside, by the gushing and eulogistic nature of the Thatcherdeath coverage. On the BBC its 90% fawning.

    Remarkable. I thought this day would bring out zillions of lefties carousing and gloating. I was looking forward to it. Yet they are subdued.

    An unexpected decency? Or a sense that she really was quite impressive, now we have seen the sequels and alternatives?

    I suspect both.

    I feel your pain.
    Good, coz my pain is sincere. As I say upthread. I can't do sarcasm or cynicism today. She was my political heroine, and the only political hero I expect to have. Ridicule me if you like, but that's how some of us feel.

    I thought you had spent most of the 80s trying to escape Thatcher's Britain through the use of chemical substances.

    Why feel pain for the death of someone you didn't know, who lived to a great age, achieved so much and left a mark on history that is never going to be forgotten? Sadness, perhaps, a level of melancholy, but pain? Surely, as she is your political heroine, today is a day for rejoicing over what she did.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 7m
    "Former Dartford candidate Margaret Thatcher dies" I suppose every local paper needs an angle http://www.bexleytimes.co.uk/news/breaking_former_dartford_candidate_margaret_thatcher_dies_1_2008213
    Retweeted by Stephen Tall
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    corporeal said:

    Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 7m
    "Former Dartford candidate Margaret Thatcher dies" I suppose every local paper needs an angle http://www.bexleytimes.co.uk/news/breaking_former_dartford_candidate_margaret_thatcher_dies_1_2008213
    Retweeted by Stephen Tall

    Brilliant!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    It is at moments like this that we all miss Neil on PB.

    Will he be joining Sean and Dave by cutting short his overseas travel to return to Britain to be with the people and share their grief?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    antifrank said:

    . The Independent goes Eurosceptic? Truly the world has turned upside down.

    Indeed.

    "But in light of the perpetual crisis in which members of the Eurozone have found themselves since the onset of the financial banking crisis in 2007 as a result of misjudged integration, those negative judgments now appears wrong. In this respect at least, she was an example of the prophet without honour in her own country."
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Parliament recalled Wednesday.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Kevin Maguire...such charm.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Anyone else just got a massive The Rise and Fall of Margaret Thatcher DVD (Amazon) ad?
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146


    Why feel pain for the death of someone you didn't know, who lived to a great age, achieved so much and left a mark on history that is never going to be forgotten? Sadness, perhaps, a level of melancholy, but pain? Surely, as she is your political heroine, today is a day for rejoicing over what she did.

    Indeed. We should remember that when all the weeping and wailing starts as soon as St Nelson snuffs it and a new star is born in the firmament.

  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    A reasonable tribute TSE. My own feeling is that history will judge her much more harshly for not only the damage to individuals and families but to a whole ethos which has taken years to clear out of the system and which was epitomized by the banking crisis which her policies of individual and corporate greed set in train.

    My feeling is that Blair will be judged to have presided over much bigger and more lasting social changes where we became a more caring and compassionate society.
    Roger
    5:12PM

    This is the daftest comment I have ever read on this site, it beats even Tims nonsense.

    Remember what the country was like in 1979 when she took over. What she achieved was remarkable and she will/is remembered as such.

    When Blair came to power he inherited a golden economic legacy with benign economic conditions. He managed to destroy the country's finances and polarized the country between the rich and the poor more than any other PM. He lied to the country and created a culture of spin where truth didn't matter. He changed Britain from a country of achievers to a country of takers where "have you had an accident at work" became more important than a hard days work. He will be remembered as such.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,990
    The most important event in the former Prime Ministers life was her marriage to Dennis Thatcher in 1951. Without that we would not be discussing Thatcherism. I guess we would also not be discussing Robertsism.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    currystar said:

    A reasonable tribute TSE. My own feeling is that history will judge her much more harshly for not only the damage to individuals and families but to a whole ethos which has taken years to clear out of the system and which was epitomized by the banking crisis which her policies of individual and corporate greed set in train.

    My feeling is that Blair will be judged to have presided over much bigger and more lasting social changes where we became a more caring and compassionate society.
    Roger
    5:12PM

    This is the daftest comment I have ever read on this site, it beats even Tims nonsense.

    Remember what the country was like in 1979 when she took over. What she achieved was remarkable and she will/is remembered as such.

    When Blair came to power he inherited a golden economic legacy with benign economic conditions. He managed to destroy the country's finances and polarized the country between the rich and the poor more than any other PM. He lied to the country and created a culture of spin where truth didn't matter. He changed Britain from a country of achievers to a country of takers where "have you had an accident at work" became more important than a hard days work. He will be remembered as such.

    Agree wholeheartedly
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    Haha, yes, Blair really is the definition of a shyster.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Carola said:

    Parliament recalled Wednesday.


    Can Rosie Winterton move the writ for South Shields in the middle of Thatcher's remembrance?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,364
    Excellent piece TSE.

    My feelings about Thatcher are similar to my feelings about Blair. And for similar reasons. I'll say no more.

    Except she inspired me to get active in politics. I joined the Liberals in 1983.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Truly, truly shameful.

    How will James Kelly and malcolmg explain that?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited April 2013
    Well said TSE. I have been out all day and didn't get the news until arriving at home.
    What does one say of a great and formidable politician that changed, if only partially, the direction in which GB was travelling. Margaret Thatcher will always be a symbol of what can be achieved with guts, passion and a little luck. It won't however, be the conservatives which will carry her torch into the future. The future is UKIP!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Press release from Nancy Reagan on passing of Thatcher

    http://www.reaganfoundation.org/PDF/Thatcher_Margaret.pdf
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    SecKerry on death of Margaret Thatcher: the US has lost a dear friend, world has lost a transformative leader.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Sarah Palin, former Alaska governor writes on Facebook: While the Iron Lady is sadly gone, her iron will, her unfailing trust in what is right and just, and her lessons to all of us will live on forever. She was a trailblazer like no other. We lost an icon, but her legacy, as solid as iron, will live on in perpetuity.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Meryl Streep
    “Margaret Thatcher was to me a figure of awe for her personal strength and grit. I was honoured to try to imagine her late life journey, after power; but I have only a glancing understanding of what her many struggles were, and how she managed to sail through to the other side.”

    “To have withstood the special hatred and ridicule, unprecedented in my opinion, leveled in our time at a public figure who was not a mass murderer; and to have managed to keep her convictions attached to fervent ideals and ideas - wrongheaded or misguided as we might see them now-without corruption - I see that as evidence of some kind of greatness, worthy for the argument of history to settle.”

    “To have given women and girls around the world reason to supplant fantasies of being princesses with a different dream: the real-life option of leading their nation; this was groundbreaking and admirable.”
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246
    AveryLP said:

    Truly, truly shameful.

    How will James Kelly and malcolmg explain that?
    Why would they need to, the Nats aren't the Scots despite what they say.
  • RicardohosRicardohos Posts: 258
    edited April 2013
    Feel surprisingly ambivalent tbh. She certainly changed this country by taking on the unions. It took a long while for monetarism to kick in, and the medicine of uber-high interest rates to control inflation definitely killed off much British manufacturing. She was highly divisive and lost touch with ordinary people. And the idea that boom and bust only occurred in the later Labour years and not 1979-1992 is hilarious.
    She was a great politician but I'll save my tears for when Nelson Mandela dies.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    Q: Will Tony try to muscle into the funeral. Folowed by some gladhanding. Will Farage?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    There's just a handful of ghouls at that pathetic " party " . Their banner is predictably green and white.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246

    Feel surprisingly ambivalent tbh. She certainly changed this country by taking on the unions. It took a long while for monetarism to kick in, and the medicine of uber-high interest rates to control inflation definitely killed off much British manufacturing. She was highly divisive and lost touch with ordinary people.
    She was a great politician but I'll save my tears for when Nelson Mandela dies.

    Blair destroyed more manufacturing jobs than Thatcher and reduced manufacturing faster than Thatcher, why is that not an issue for those on the left ? Pull the beam out of your own eye first.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,594

    Carola said:

    Parliament recalled Wednesday.


    Can Rosie Winterton move the writ for South Shields in the middle of Thatcher's remembrance?
    I did wonder the same when Cameron mentioned it during his well-measured speech earlier.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,594
    Notable how many smug or bitter lefties still feel the need today to define themselves against Margaret Thatcher. Let them celebrate: they lost then and are losing again now. Her death changes nothing; her legacy endures. Their parties by contrast are nothing but an empty echo of their own impotence.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    It appears PB has necessitated an entirely new category. Those who are outraged there are not enough outrageous things to get outraged over.
    image


  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    the medicine of uber-high interest rates to control inflation definitely killed off much British manufacturing.

    Myth. As with other European countries, manufacturing has been declining in the UK as a percentage of GDP for the last fifty years. It declined more slowly under Thatcher than in many other periods, notably under Blair/Brown:

    Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP:

    1970: 20.57%
    1979: 17.62%
    1990: 15.18%
    2010: 9.68%

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Some more tributes from at home and worldwide

    Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard says:

    "Her service as the first female Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was a history-making achievement.

    "Her strength of conviction was recognised by her closest supporters and her strongest opponents. I extend my sincere condolences and those of my fellow Australians to her family and friends."

    President Obama says:

    With the passing of Baroness Margaret Thatcher, the world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend. As a grocer’s daughter who rose to become Britain’s first female prime minister, she stands as an example to our daughters that there is no glass ceiling that can’t be shattered. As prime minister, she helped restore the confidence and pride that has always been the hallmark of Britain at its best. And as an unapologetic supporter of our transatlantic alliance, she knew that with strength and resolve we could win the Cold War and extend freedom’s promise.

    Here in America, many of us will never forget her standing shoulder to shoulder with President Reagan, reminding the world that we are not simply carried along by the currents of history—we can shape them with moral conviction, unyielding courage and iron will. Michelle and I send our thoughts to the Thatcher family and all the British people as we carry on the work to which she dedicated her life—free peoples standing together, determined to write our own destiny

    Former US President George HW Bush says:

    Barbara and I were deeply saddened to learn of Baroness Thatcher's passing, and extend our heartfelt condolences to her children and loved ones. Margaret was, to be sure, one of the 20th Century's fiercest advocates of freedom and free markets -- a leader of rare character who carried high the banner of her convictions, and whose principles in the end helped shape a better, freer world. The personal grief we Bushes feel is compounded by the knowledge that America has lost one of the staunchest allies we have ever known; and yet we have confidence that her sterling record of accomplishment will inspire future generations. May God bless the memory of Margaret Thatcher.

    Vaclav Klaus, former Czech president, prime minister says:

    Thatcher was one of the greatest politicians of our time, in the Czech Republic she was our hero.

    Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said:

    I mourn the passing of Prime Minister Baroness Margaret Thatcher. She was truly a great leader, a woman of principle, of determination, of conviction, of strength; a woman of greatness. She was a staunch friend of Israel and the Jewish people. She inspired a generation of political leaders. I send my most sincere condolences to her family and to the government and people of Great Britain.

    Tony Blair says:

    Margaret Thatcher was a towering political figure. Very few leaders get to change not only the political landscape of their country but of the world. Margaret was such a leader. Her global impact was vast. And some of the changes she made in Britain were, in certain respects at least, retained by the 1997 Labour Government, and came to be implemented by governments around the world.

    As a person she was kind and generous spirited and was always immensely supportive to me as Prime Minister although we came from opposite sides of politics.

    Even if you disagreed with her as I did on certain issues and occasionally strongly, you could not disrespect her character or her contribution to Britain's national life. She will be sadly missed.

    Gordon Brown says:

    Sarah and I have sent messages to Lady Thatcher's son Mark and daughter Carol, offering our condolences to them and to the Thatcher family and commemorating Lady Thatcher's many decades of service to our country.

    She will be remembered not only for being Britain's first female Prime Minister and holding the office for 11 years, but also for the determination and resilience with which she carried out all her duties throughout her public life. Even those who disagreed with her never doubted the strength of her convictions and her unwavering belief in Britain's destiny in the world.

    During our time in Number 10, Sarah and I invited Lady Thatcher to revisit Downing Street and Chequers - something which we know she enjoyed very much. But it was sad for her and her family that she lost her devoted husband Denis almost 10 years ago and that she was unable to enjoy good health in the later years of her retirement.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246
    @ Mick Pork

    It's like anything else Mick you can find offence if you're looking for it, most people can be arsed to go looking to be offended.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Thatcher put the era of spin and PR on steroids long before Blair.

    Ask Saatchi & Saatchi. Ask her 'bulldog' Press Secretary Spin Doctor Bernard Ingham. Ask all those PR consultants and minions who modulated her voice, sculpted her hair, dressed her in her power handbag and colour coordinated matching garb.
  • RicardohosRicardohos Posts: 258
    edited April 2013

    Feel surprisingly ambivalent tbh. She certainly changed this country by taking on the unions. It took a long while for monetarism to kick in, and the medicine of uber-high interest rates to control inflation definitely killed off much British manufacturing. She was highly divisive and lost touch with ordinary people.
    She was a great politician but I'll save my tears for when Nelson Mandela dies.

    Blair destroyed more manufacturing jobs than Thatcher and reduced manufacturing faster than Thatcher, why is that not an issue for those on the left ? Pull the beam out of your own eye first.
    I never voted for Tony Blair. Couldn't stand the man. But there wasn't a lot of manufacturing base left by the time he took over.
    As I said she was a great politician. She did what she thought was needed in 1979 and it dragged this country kicking and screaming back to effectiveness but she also got a lot of things wrong, sometimes badly so. I've noticed a lot of people shrugging their shoulders today. The world moved on.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146

    She was a great politician but I'll save my tears for when Nelson Mandela dies.

    Tears of laughter?

    A personal friend of yours is he? Still there will be plenty more on that particular bandwagon. I dare say "the whole world".

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Henry Kissinger says:

    “She was a leader of strong convictions, great leadership abilities and extraordinary personality. She was a woman who [knew that] a leader needed to have strong convictions because the public had no way of orienting itself unless its leadership, its leaders gave it the real push. She didn’t think it was her job to find the middle ground.”

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said:

    "As a long-serving prime minister, she shaped modern Britain as few have before or since. She was one of the greatest leaders in world politics of her time. The freedom of the individual was at the centre of her beliefs so she recognised very early the power of the movements for freedom in Eastern Europe. And she supported them. I will never forget her contribution in overcoming Europe's partition and the end of the Cold War.

    "Margaret Thatcher was not a feminist but by proving herself as a woman in the highest democratic post when this was far from usual, she gave an example to many. My thoughts and sympathy are with her children."

    Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Lady Thatcher was "a true landmark in 20th-century history" and said today was "a sad day for Europe as a whole." He adds:

    "Margaret Thatcher led the UK government at a key moment in history. Her unerring commitment to freedom, democracy and the rule of law, as well as her firm determination to reform, constitute a most valuable legacy for European leaders who, akin to the 80s when it was her turn to be in power, have to face very complex challenges which require greatly ambitious stances and political courage."

    Former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy says:

    My sincere sympathy goes out to the Thatcher family. We remember today a landmark political figure, both at home and abroad.

    Condoleezza Rice said she was "honoured to know and to be inspired" by Margaret
    Thatcher:

    I am deeply saddened by the news of the passing of Baroness Thatcher.

    There was no more potent force in the defense of freedom than this remarkable woman.

    Her unshakable belief in the universal appeal of liberty helped to steer the free world through treacherous times until communism was defeated and Europe emerged whole, free and a peace.

    I was honoured to know her and to be inspired by her. Baroness Thatcher will be missed but generations will draw strength from the memory of her passion for freedom.

    President Francois Hollande says:

    "Throughout her public life, with conservative beliefs she fully assumed, she was concerned with the United Kingdom's influence and the defence of its interests.

    She maintained a relationship with France that was frank and honest.

    Together they (Baroness Thatcher and former French president Francois Mitterrand) worked to strengthen the ties between our two countries. And it was at this time that Mrs Thatcher gave the decisive impetus to the construction of the cross-Channel tunnel.

    Helmut Kohl says:

    "I greatly valued Margaret Thatcher for her love of freedom, her incomparable openness, honesty and straightforwardness

    Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai said: "Prime Minister Thatcher was one of the greatest leaders the world knew.”

    President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia, who in 2005 became the first female president of an African country, says:

    "I admired her strength and tenacity. I admired her ability to make decisions, even when they were unpopular. And that's why she was called the Iron Lady, and I dare say that I'm also called the Iron Lady."

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,246

    the medicine of uber-high interest rates to control inflation definitely killed off much British manufacturing.

    Myth. As with other European countries, manufacturing has been declining in the UK as a percentage of GDP for the last fifty years. It declined more slowly under Thatcher than in many other periods, notably under Blair/Brown:

    Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP:

    1970: 20.57%
    1979: 17.62%
    1990: 15.18%
    2010: 9.68%

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts
    correct Richard and whereas Thatcher's treatment was brutal sometimes needlessly so, Blair killed off manufacturing by a combination sheer neglect and shyster consultants.
  • @AndreaParma_82
    From the top of my head, a motion to the effect that the Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ for the electing of a Member of Parliament has precedence, and may be continued with if opposed, on any day other than that at which private Members' Bills have precedence (Standing Order 19). Happy to be corrected about that if mistaken.
  • Baroness Thatcher RIP. We will not see your like again.

    I recently gave £50 to this excellent initiative for a statue of her in her home town of Grantham. We don't much go in for statutue's by public subscription these days, but for this colossus we should make an exception.

    Why not join me and make a donation in tribute?

    http://www.margaretthatcherstatue.org/ and for all the PB lefties it even has the support of the town's Labour councillors support it http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-21647525
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,594
    Mick_Pork said:

    Thatcher put the era of spin and PR on steroids long before Blair.

    Ask Saatchi & Saatchi. Ask her 'bulldog' Press Secretary Spin Doctor Bernard Ingham. Ask all those PR consultants and minions who modulated her voice, sculpted her hair, dressed her in her power handbag and colour coordinated matching garb.

    Ingham was a civil servant. Prior to his working for Margaret Thatcher, hadn't he been Press Secretary to Tony Benn?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    It's amazing that Henry Kissinger is still alive. He seems to have been in his 80s since about 1973.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia, who in 2005 became the first female president of an African country, says:

    "I admired her strength and tenacity. I admired her ability to make decisions, even when they were unpopular. And that's why she was called the Iron Lady, and I dare say that I'm also called the Iron Lady."

    Bill Clinton says:

    "Lady Thatcher understood that the special relationship which has long
    united our two nations is an indispensable foundation for peace and
    prosperity. Our strong partnership today is part of her
    legacy".

    Lord Mandelson says:

    "I'm not sure whether I saw her as an inspiration. I certainly saw her as a force to be reckoned
    with, I mean a political and electoral force that was almost overwhelming.

    "I think also, on reflection, to be honest, I would say that she introduced, she ushered in, a timely and necessary overhaul of the UK economy in many ways.

    "The problem I have with that reflection, though, is that I think in other ways she was too indifferent to the social consequences of the economic changes she was undertaking."

    Arnold Schwarzenegger says:

    Margaret Thatcher was a visionary, a warrior and a once-in-a-lifetime leader who left the world better than she found it. We'll miss her.

    Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, says:

    "She was a transformative figure under whom the United Kingdom registered important progress on the national and international arena. People of India join me in sending our sincerest condolences to the Thatcher family, the government and people of the United Kingdom.”

    Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper says:

    "While many in positions of power are defined by the times in which they govern, Margaret Thatcher had that rarest of abilities to herself personify and define the age in which she served.

    "Indeed, with the success of her economic policies, she defined contemporary conservatism itself.

    "In 2006 I met with her in London, where she provided me wise and gracious counsel, the memory of which I will forever cherish. Laureen (Mr Harper's wife) and I join all Canadians in saluting the proud life and legacy of Lady Thatcher."

    Geri Halliwell tweets:

    Thinking of our 1st Lady of girl power ,Margaret Thatcher , a green grocer's daughter who taught me any thing is possible...x

    Lord Sugar tweets:

    Baroness Thatcher in the 80's kicked started the entrepreneurial revolution that allowed chirpy chappies to succeed and not just the elite...

    Some of the despicable scum tweeting foul mouth comments on my Baroness Thatcher tweet, were still drinking milk from a teat in the 80s

    Former President George W. Bush called her an “inspirational leader.”
    Continue Reading

    “Laura and I are saddened by the death of Baroness Margaret Thatcher. She was an inspirational leader who stood on principle and guided her nation with confidence and clarity,” Bush said in a statement.

    “Prime Minister Thatcher is a great example of strength and character, and a great ally who strengthened the special relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States. Laura and I join the people of Great Britain in remembering the life and leadership of this strong woman and friend.”

    Australian Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott issued the following statement tonight upon news of the death of former British prime minister Baroness Thatcher:

    Margaret Thatcher was one of the greatest British prime ministers and one of the most significant world leaders of our times.

    She was the first female prime minister of Great Britain and ranks with the greatest of prime ministers because of the quality of her leadership and the impact she had on Britain and the wider world.

    Margaret Thatcher arrested the decline of Britain and gave the British people renewed confidence. She ensured the British people no longer simply dwelt on the glories of the past but could enjoy a strong and prosperous future.

    The thoughts of the Coalition are with Baroness Thatcher’s family and the British people at this time.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    The poet Larkin on Thatcher ;

    " She has a pretty face, hasn't she? I expect she's pretty tough. Her great virtue is saying that two and two makes four, which is unpopular nowadays as it always has been. I adore Mrs Thatcher. At last politics make sense to me, which it hasn't since Stafford Cripps."
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Obviously sad for Thatcher family that she has died. Can't help but think they must be in some way relieved she didn't go out in worse circumstances. Death does indeed come to us all.

    On the politics. Obviously I don't think she did this country much good and many of the problems we face now are as a direct result of the decisions she made.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    SO - He is 90 next month!
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    And Louise Mensch and the other people that have tried to score political points should feel pretty ashamed. Irony being that Thatcher was very good at knowing when was the time to say something and when it wasn't.

    Mensch has non of those qualities. The inability to bide ones time, take the long game and pick only certain battles by the likes of Mensch illustrates clearly why Thatcher could win General Elections and the current lot can't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Derek Hatton, unsurprisingly, says 'he wished she had never been born!'
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    tim said:
    tim said:
    Toby Young has an utterly predictable blog in the Telegraph along the same lines. That the targets of his ire are so obscure must be a real disappointment to him.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013

    Ingham was a civil servant.

    That never stopped him. If you actually believe he was somehow impartial then maybe you should read some of his gushing prose over her as well as some of what he did 'above and beyond' to ensure she got the best possible press. Ingham was no stranger to any of the TV stations or press barons when she was in power.

    Perhaps you also think Saatchi & Saatchi were an insignificant Public Relations partnership who disappeared into obscurity when she was in power?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    HYUFD said:



    Geri Halliwell tweets:

    Lord Sugar tweets:

    HYUFD, please, this is a day for dignity.

  • RicardohosRicardohos Posts: 258
    Quick anecdote (and to whoever asked I've worked with Mandela, not that's it relevant to his greatness). Once heard Lord Runcie preach in the midst of her reign and he pronounced that 'No-one without a sense of humour should be put in charge of anything'. Then quietly so only the four of us in the front pew heard 'least of all this country'.

    Hope that's not too disrespectful to those of you eulogising her, but Runcie's point always stuck with me. It's something she didn't have, and in other ways it manifested in her failings. Anyway she did a great job back in '79, finishing what Heath didn't have the balls to do in 70-74.

    Right other things to do ...
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited April 2013
    "Derek Hatton, unsurprisingly, says 'he wished she had never been born!'"

    I bet the little twerp Hatton has been saving that piece of Wilde-like wit up for years and contacted friends in the media to get it out.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Margaret Thatcher's funeral to be on Thurdsay 2nd May. Her dying wish was to be buried with the party she had led and loved.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531


    http://www.margaretthatcherstatue.org/ and for all the PB lefties it even has the support of the town's Labour councillors support it http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-21647525

    And for all the PB Tories, the Conservative councillors voted it down. Funny old world.

    'Conservatives have voted against a plan to build a statue of Margaret Thatcher in her hometown of Grantham, an idea that was backed by Labour councillors.
    Labour councillors at South Kesteven District Council said they believed the statue would be a tourist attraction in the town where the Iron Lady grew up, which currently only has a small plaque on the wall of the store, which Thatcher's family owned.
    Tories in the town called Labour's campaign "blatant electioneering" and "publicity-seeking", according to the Telegraph.
    The statue does not appear to have a great deal of local support. In a letter to the Grantham Journal, local resident Anthony Hindmarch wrote: "I think it is safe to say that anyone who thinks tourism is going to result from the erection of a statue of Thatcher, is probably living in cloud cuckoo land. Personally I loathe Maggie and all she stood for. All I ask is that no public money be used to erect any statue. The economic wasteland that is Grantham, is testament enough to Thatcherism."'

    http://tinyurl.com/btwu2zt
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013

    tim said:
    tim said:
    Toby Young has an utterly predictable blog in the Telegraph along the same lines. That the targets of his ire are so obscure must be a real disappointment to him.

    Yes, the more eccentric foamers seem to think their disappointment there isn't more to get outraged over is confirmation of everything they hold dear. Though of course if they find any outrageous things to get outraged over that is also confirmation of all they hold dear. I suspect drowning their sorrows and the alcohol has been taking it's toll on some.
This discussion has been closed.