What's so funny about this thread is how many Remainers are taking the side of Madrid as a proxy fight for the Brexit debate, and then hurling accusations of xenophobia and racism at the Leavers backing Catalonia.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
I did not (and do not) take the side of Spain in this matter, as I pointed out below.
As an "ultra-remainer" neither do I as I said earlier in a couple of posts. The current Spanish government is acting in a stupid counter-productive and heavy-handed way, probably because of its fascist roots.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
The PP has lost. They have made some form of Catalan independence almost inevitable now. It's a text book study in how not to deal with separatist politicians actively looking for confrontation. Stupid, obstinate Spanish nationalism has had its comeuppance. And it will leave both Spain and Catalonia severely diminished. I could cry. Two places I hold very close to my heart have been brought to the point of chaos and ruin by pig-headed, destructive nationalists.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
Is it one of the tiny countries - possibly so tiny that there is no space within its borders for its givernment to meet?
Not that tiny at all, in fact, but it is landlocked
What's so funny about this thread is how many Remainers are taking the side of Madrid as a proxy fight for the Brexit debate, and then hurling accusations of xenophobia and racism at the Leavers backing Catalonia.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
I did not (and do not) take the side of Spain in this matter, as I pointed out below.
As an "ultra-remainer" neither do I as I said earlier in a couple of posts. The current Spanish government is acting in a stupid counter-productive and heavy-handed way, probably because of its fascist roots.
As I said earlier, as an ultra Leaver I agree with you. Whilst there will be possible repercussions across the Europe I do not see an EU 'dimension' in the causes of this, nor do I think the responses from other European countries have had anything to do with the EU. They have been entirely based on their own issues with national integrity. I think they are wrong of course as one can criticise the actions of the Spanish Government without in any way supporting Catalan Independence. But they seem not to have chosen that route - which is frankly shameful.
The best response I have seen so far is from the EU itself rather than any individual nation.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence, if Catalonia declares UDI and Spain uses force to quell it, even perhaps abolishing the Catalan Parliament, arresting the Catalan nationalist leadership and imposing martial law in the short-term at least Spain is likely to be successful, though it could even lead to a terrorist backlash.
Just think, if Cameron had not granted the SNP a referendum and taken the Rajoy route this could have been us 4 years ago. Spain is acting like we did with Ireland 100 years ago, not like we did with Scotland in 2014 or Canada with Quebec in 1980 or 1995.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
Is it one of the tiny countries - possibly so tiny that there is no space within its borders for its givernment to meet?
Not that tiny at all, in fact, but it is landlocked
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
A functioning UN member state - from Europe - whose government is in another state - in Europe? Is Italy's government actually in the Vatican City, perhaps?
(Fans of local government boundaries might be fascinated to know that North East Derbyshire's council offices are outside its territory, in Chesterfield. There may be other examples).
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I think it's probably more true to say "behaved as his administration would have done" - Franco didn't actually face anything like this.
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
Not at the match then - it gets worse and Rooney is a shadow of himself - sad really
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
Yep - the PP was founded by Manuel Fraga, who was a minister in the later Franco governments.
A functioning UN member state - from Europe - whose government is in another state - in Europe? Is Italy's government actually in the Vatican City, perhaps?
(Fans of local government boundaries might be fascinated to know that North East Derbyshire's council offices are outside its territory, in Chesterfield. There may be other examples).
Actually, the government in exile is based in New York, but the state itself is a European landlocked UN member state.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Particularly bad was the video of them marching into a small town. It was like storm troopers invading.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
From memory 60% support stopping the referendum, 20% are OK with it, 20% don’t know. If there wasn’t a broad consensus, PP and PSOE wouldn’t be in agreement (albeit they disagree about what to do next).
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
I meant in Catalonia - as I understand it the rest of Spain is largely behind the PM - and if the proportion that want independence there are a similar proportion to those in Spain that back the actions being taken by Rajoy. if the main parties are united in spain on this issue, and even with this referendum its a narrow catalonia win, I wonder if that is relevant.
Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
From memory 60% support stopping the referendum, 20% are OK with it, 20% don’t know. If there wasn’t a broad consensus, PP and PSOE wouldn’t be in agreement (albeit they disagree about what to do next).
Wrong.
If you are talking about support for a referendum within Catalonia - which is what HYUFD was referring to - then support is between 70 and 80% this year.
Evening all. The Spanish government's really screwed this one up.
I would agree the images are terrible for a modern state democracy in Europe.I think it's all the more shocking thinking of its fairly recent history of a brutal civil war.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
My understanding is that most of the Irish opposed the Easter uprising as well. It was the way in which the British crushed it and then executed the ringleaders that turned opinion against them so thoroughly.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of Independence from 1919 to 1921 which saw the foundation of the IRA and the equally brutal Black and Tans sent by the British government to match them, only ended by the Anglo Irish Treaty of 1922 and the partition of Ireland and the foundation of the Irish Free State
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
My understanding is that most of the Irish opposed the Easter uprising as well. It was the way in which the British crushed it and then executed the ringleaders that turned opinion against them so thoroughly.
Yes, it was probably that which led to Irish independence and the partition of Ireland
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
My understanding is that most of the Irish opposed the Easter uprising as well. It was the way in which the British crushed it and then executed the ringleaders that turned opinion against them so thoroughly.
Yes, that was my understanding too. That said, while the reaction was excessive, it did take place in the middle of a world war - at a time when lives were unusually cheap (to the government), violence was routine and Ireland didn't merit as much attention as it normally would have done. That's not to excuse it but to it's easier to understand how that happened compared with the mess now taking place in Spain.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
Madrid could have avoided all this by simply granting a legal referendum. An act of generosity like that, and Madrid would comfortably have won.
Now?
In pure ruthless terms Spain is a country of 46 million most of whom back Rajoy and Catalonia is a country of 7 million most of whom back independence
Is it most though, or a narrow majority of them? Or just under a majority?
The PP still lead the latest Spanish polls and there were plenty of Spaniards waving off the Civil Guard with Spanish flags flying yesterday.
I meant in Catalonia - as I understand it the rest of Spain is largely behind the PM - and if the proportion that want independence there are a similar proportion to those in Spain that back the actions being taken by Rajoy. if the main parties are united in spain on this issue, and even with this referendum its a narrow catalonia win, I wonder if that is relevant.
As Richard Tyndall says Catalans back the referendum, Spaniards as a whole oppose it
But along with most people, I can recognise stupidity, brutality and cowardice when I see it.
I've seen it today. And I hate it.
Quite a shock to see this sort of thing in Western Euope, though - indeed in a part of Western Europe many of us are familiar with. I know Spain was run by fascists within living memory, but there aren't all that many any more who remember that far back: to most of us, Spain has always seemed as western as home.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. But his government was more Authoritarian Nationalist. Hence why he stayed out of WW2. He had no ideology to export, at the risk of Spanish unity and the power of the Church.
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
Not at the match then - it gets worse and Rooney is a shadow of himself - sad really
Watched the first half on TV. So bad, a family game of Monopoly seemed appealing. I crushed them all with my financial wizardry which cheered me up!
I would urge all pb'ers to read Martin Armstrong's very prescient articles on Catalonia below, particularly those on the 26th and 28th September 2015, around the turning point on his famed Economic Confidence Model (ECM). Governments are in decline everywhere, desperately trying to collect every last pound, euro or dollar in taxation.......and they too know that they're in desperate trouble.......and turning to authoritarianism frequently in a futile attempt to beat the trend. Its an amazing time to be alive, and witnessing profound shifts in the sands of power. I will always side with freedom and liberty and the people in times like these:
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
Is it one of the tiny countries - possibly so tiny that there is no space within its borders for its givernment to meet?
Not that tiny at all, in fact, but it is landlocked
#clue
Is it something like Czechoslovakia, the government-in-exile having been set up in 1938/9 and having never accepted the Communist government following the Nazi occupation, and then maintaining itself after 1989 out of habit as much as anything?
I have a feeling the Catalonian situation could end up being a much bigger challenge for the EU than Brexit.
Far, far bigger. France has bits if Catalonia and the Basque country within its borders; countless other member states (including the UK) have separatist parties watching how the world reacts to Catalan UDI. It's not an EU issue per se, but it's one that presents a huge challenge to any number of EU member states.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. But his government was more Authoritarian Nationalist. Hence why he stayed out of WW2. He had no ideology to export, at the risk of Spanish unity and the power of the Church.
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Dixiedean - please don't contaminate this thread with historical nuance. It's much easier to just look at the pictures, pick a side based on a misleading analogy with Brexit and then call the other side names.
What a mess. At least Catalonia has no tradition of violent nationalism (antics of Terra Lliure excepted). Hopefully things won't escalate too quickly.
The Telegraph are continuing their descent into the gutter.
Their headline tonight on the Catalan situation is:
"Catalonian referendum: European Union in crisis as they come under criticism for failing to condemn violent clashes"
Given that the only real criticism have seen from a senior European politician has been from one of the most senior EU politicians, Guy Verhofstadt, I would suggest that is hugely misleading.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. But his government was more Authoritarian Nationalist. Hence why he stayed out of WW2. He had no ideology to export, at the risk of Spanish unity and the power of the Church.
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Dixiedean - please don't contaminate this thread with historical nuance. It's much easier to just look at the pictures, pick a side based on a misleading analogy with Brexit and then call the other side names.
.
Just ignore the people who haven't been making analogies with Brexit (in fact deliberating finding common ground with people with whom they oppose on Brexit) and see what you want to see.
I have close family in Barcelona who are appalled, saddened and apprehensive about these developments. But they tell me something I don't read here or in the UK or European media, namely that the local police in many instances simply failed or didn't even try to close the unofficial polling stations, as they were instructed to do by the courts. So the national police stepped in as they were required to do in these circumstances.
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
Not at the match then - it gets worse and Rooney is a shadow of himself - sad really
Watched the first half on TV. So bad, a family game of Monopoly seemed appealing. I crushed them all with my financial wizardry which cheered me up!
It is amazing considering the money spent. Koeman must be hanging by a thread
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. But his government was more Authoritarian Nationalist. Hence why he stayed out of WW2. He had no ideology to export, at the risk of Spanish unity and the power of the Church.
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Dixiedean - please don't contaminate this thread with historical nuance. It's much easier to just look at the pictures, pick a side based on a misleading analogy with Brexit and then call the other side names.
What a mess. At least Catalonia has no tradition of violent nationalism (antics of Terra Lliure excepted). Hopefully things won't escalate too quickly.
Too late for that. The people you are fanboying for have already far overstepped the mark.
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
Not at the match then - it gets worse and Rooney is a shadow of himself - sad really
Watched the first half on TV. So bad, a family game of Monopoly seemed appealing. I crushed them all with my financial wizardry which cheered me up!
Monopoly is too unrealistic.
In real life, the kids start a dozen turns after their parents - and two dozen turns after their grandparents.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
You may have read it already, but Anthony Beevor's book is excellent, and not too long.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. But his government was more Authoritarian Nationalist. Hence why he stayed out of WW2. He had no ideology to export, at the risk of Spanish unity and the power of the Church.
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Dixiedean - please don't contaminate this thread with historical nuance. It's much easier to just look at the pictures, pick a side based on a misleading analogy with Brexit and then call the other side names.
What a mess. At least Catalonia has no tradition of violent nationalism (antics of Terra Lliure excepted). Hopefully things won't escalate too quickly.
Yes. But the optics are all that matter. It looks like a Fascist, and quacks like a Fascist. Nuance is not really important.
The Telegraph are continuing their descent into the gutter.
Their headline tonight on the Catalan situation is:
"Catalonian referendum: European Union in crisis as they come under criticism for failing to condemn violent clashes"
Given that the only real criticism have seen from a senior European politician has been from one of the most senior EU politicians, Guy Verhofstadt, I would suggest that is hugely misleading.
+1
I was about to post something similar about that Telegraph article (though you put it much better). It's a really shoddy piece even by their recent standards.
I have close family in Barcelona who are appalled, saddened and apprehensive about these developments. But they tell me something I don't read here or in the UK or European media, namely that the local police in many instances simply failed or didn't even try to close the unofficial polling stations, as they were instructed to do by the courts. So the national police stepped in as they were required to do in these circumstances.
Yep, the Mossos - the Catalan police force - are controlled by an avowed separatist and have singularly failed to enforce the law they are supposed to uphold. The situation in Catalonia is very complex and there are no real good guys. But today's pictures trump all of that. Catalonia will be seen internationally from here on in as Northern Ireland used to be seen internationally: the British state brutalising largely innocent nationalists.
Been out today. Return to a clusterf**k in Catalonia. Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all. Pity there aren't any markets on it. Cluster to be F**ked 1/5. To remain unf**ked 3/1. Grim humour for a grim to-do.
Not at the match then - it gets worse and Rooney is a shadow of himself - sad really
Watched the first half on TV. So bad, a family game of Monopoly seemed appealing. I crushed them all with my financial wizardry which cheered me up!
Monopoly is too unrealistic.
In real life, the kids start a dozen turns after their parents - and two dozen turns after their grandparents.
I have close family in Barcelona who are appalled, saddened and apprehensive about these developments. But they tell me something I don't read here or in the UK or European media, namely that the local police in many instances simply failed or didn't even try to close the unofficial polling stations, as they were instructed to do by the courts. So the national police stepped in as they were required to do in these circumstances.
Yep, the Mossos - the Catalan police force - are controlled by an avowed separatist and have singularly failed to enforce the law they are supposed to uphold. The situation in Catalonia is very complex and there are no real good guys. But today's pictures trump all of that. Catalonia will be seen internationally from here on in as Northern Ireland used to be seen internationally: the British state brutalising largely innocent nationalists.
It is all about presentation.
Catalen presentation is as a bullied small victim.
The victim garners all the good media coverage, sympathy and leeway to misbehave.
Spain can't win in the media now. Therefore they lose.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
You may have read it already, but Anthony Beevor's book is excellent, and not too long.
Anthony Beevor's book is excellent. No more needs saying.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
If you think Rajoy or his government are fascists, then you don’t know what the word means, or are letting the emotion of the situation get to you. Either way, there’s no point engaging with you.
Their party are direct successors to the fascist government under Franco. They were set up by some of his former ministers. Added to that they have behaved in the same way as his administration did.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
I don't think Rajoy or PP or most Spaniards are anywhere near Fascist.
The problem is all those images and videos today, of baton-weilding Darth Vadar lookalike Spanish police beating up old and young people, for the simple crime of trying to vote in a referendum, look like the PUREST Fascism. Brute nationalist power cruelly repressing the people.
Spain *looks* Fascist, today. That's all that anyone will take away. The social media pictures paint a million words.
Franco himself was not a Fascist in the true sense of the term. He was helped to power BY Fascists from abroad, and had Fascists in his support base. snip
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Dixiedean - please don't contaminate this thread with historical nuance. It's much easier to just look at the pictures, pick a side based on a misleading analogy with Brexit and then call the other side names.
What a mess. At least Catalonia has no tradition of violent nationalism (antics of Terra Lliure excepted). Hopefully things won't escalate too quickly.
Yes. But the optics are all that matter. It looks like a Fascist, and quacks like a Fascist. Nuance is not really important.
But they shouldn't be all that matters. At least politicalbetting.com is the kind of place where we should be able to rise above them!
It's been a long day. Night all, and let's hope cooler heads prevail tomorrow on both sides.
This has got quintessentially fuck all to do with Brexit, except in the most marginal terms,
I remember having a long chat with a smart Andalusian over lunch about four years ago, in Seville. He said "You Brits are mad to let the Scots have an indyref, what if they say YES".
I replied that it was British democracy, the Scots were legally entitled, Scotland was an ancient nation voluntarily part of the UK, and if they voted to secede, that was their right, even though I would bitterly regret it. I also added that I doubted they would quit, in the end
His reaction was very telling: he was contemptuous of the "selfish" Catalunyans, he said they would never be allowed a vote (unlike in the UK), and would never be allowed to leave Spain. And he was a smart liberal democrat.
And here we are. This has very little to do with the EU, this is more about the historic psychodrama of Spain itself, a country divided by language (unlike the UK), and with a history of civil war that remains within living memory.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
1st October 2017... could end up being one of those major dates in history, and not for good reasons. Let's hope it turns out not to be as bad as it looks tonight.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
If he makes a statement of that nature and due to his position in the EU it is going to be read accordingly.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
But they shouldn't find it difficult at all. It should be perfectly possible to say as Verhofstadt did that they support will not interfere in Spain's internal politics but that the use of violence against peaceful civilians is unacceptable. It is a logical, tenable and moral position to take.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
You may have read it already, but Anthony Beevor's book is excellent, and not too long.
Anthony Beevor's book is excellent. No more needs saying.
I enjoyed it. I think there are one or two weak points in it, but are a cover-to-cover read I do think it's the best.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
Brexiteer Boris has already given official UK line: it's an internal Spanish matter.
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
True turnout will be very hard to gauge as the Catalan government was allowing people to print out ballot papers and bring them to polling stations. But it's a detail that will be lost in the general noise. Today has been more than the separatists could ever have hoped for. It's their dream come true.
Southam how far in your opinion could this potentially spiral out of control ?
My guess is that even the PP would not be so stupid as to escalate things further. They will see the international reaction and Rajoy will undoubtedly be getting calls from European capitals and further afield. However, the Catalan separatists have won a huge victory today. They'll be doing all they can to cause further trouble and all it will take is one guardia civil officer to make the wrong call in a high pressure situation. I've always said Catalonia could be another Slovenia. I still think that. Ominously, the Basques will be watching events very closely. The danger for Rajoy is that things start to spiral there, too. And all he had to have done was agree to give the Catalans what the Basques have now ..,
Thanks much appreciated , I love Spain , first visited there in the early seventies as a child.The change and in Portugal has been immense , would hate to see that go horribly wrong.
Spain, unfortunately, has a long history of intolerant, absolutist politics. It could just be that the first 40 years or so after Franco's death was a blip and things are now reverting to the norm. I truly hope not, like you I love the place.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
You may have read it already, but Anthony Beevor's book is excellent, and not too long.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
Brexiteer Boris has already given official UK line: it's an internal Spanish matter.
Would it be an ecumenical matter? That and yes appear to be the level of sophistication that the great Blond hope of the Tory Party can manage.
Under 50% turnout in Catalonia. But huge majority for independence among those who did vote. Worth remembering, though, that voters could print off ballot papers and take them to polling stations, so true turnout and vote numbers impossible to verify.
Has to be seen in the context of Ramón Luis Valcárcel being Spanish and a member of the PP surely?
Maybe but idiotic does't start to cover his words
True, but your post made it look like it was an official EU comment.
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
Brexiteer Boris has already given official UK line: it's an internal Spanish matter.
I have read many books on the Spanish Civil war , but struggled with all the differing groups and factions especially on the republican side.However recently watched Michael Portillo history programmes about this period , which made more sense to me.
You may have read it already, but Anthony Beevor's book is excellent, and not too long.
I always think of Beevor as diet Hastings, but as Hastings hasn't done the Spanish Civil War I'll have a look, thank you.
I am not sure OmniShambles or ClusterFuck are good enough words to describe today.
Italy next? Assuming North Korea doesn't start WW III before than.
The trend today is all about breaking up into smaller parts.
Looking at the list of sovereign states by date of formation, it's interesting to see the dates. A few in Asia and north africa in thousands BC, smatterings in the early hundreds in Europe
I know nation-states as ideas are not super new in historical terms, but still.
Under 50% turnout in Catalonia. But huge majority for independence among those who did vote. Worth remembering, though, that voters could print off ballot papers and take them to polling stations, so true turnout and vote numbers impossible to verify.
Hardly seems up to standard, but given today's events, fewer will have an issue with that than might have.
Comments
The best response I have seen so far is from the EU itself rather than any individual nation.
Just think, if Cameron had not granted the SNP a referendum and taken the Rajoy route this could have been us 4 years ago. Spain is acting like we did with Ireland 100 years ago, not like we did with Scotland in 2014 or Canada with Quebec in 1980 or 1995.
In this case I think the term is entirely justified and it is you who are ignorant.
(Fans of local government boundaries might be fascinated to know that North East Derbyshire's council offices are outside its territory, in Chesterfield. There may be other examples).
Hat-tip to @SouthamObserver who predicted it all.
Pity there aren't any markets on it.
Cluster to be F**ked 1/5.
To remain unf**ked 3/1.
Grim humour for a grim to-do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaZ4T_0xma0
Surrey is based at Kingston, a London borough.
Though of course plenty of Britains supported the crushing of the Easter rising too, the arresting and execution of Irish nationalist leaders and the imposition of martial law in Ireland in 1916. It led to Sinn Fein declaring a breakaway government in 1919 in a separate Irish Parliament, the Dail Eireann and the Irish War of UI
But along with most people, I can recognise stupidity, brutality and cowardice when I see it.
I've seen it today. And I hate it.
This has done unbelievable damage to Spain as the pictures have lead news channels across the world
If you are talking about support for a referendum within Catalonia - which is what HYUFD was referring to - then support is between 70 and 80% this year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#On_whether_a_referendum_should_be_held
However, they do LOOK Fascist. And to a non-pedantic observer not on a niche political website they ARE Fascist.
Making a direct appeal to the EU, [Carles Puigdemont] said: “We Catalans have earned the right to be heard in Europe.”
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/tag/catalonia/
Good night all on a truly momentous day.
What a mess. At least Catalonia has no tradition of violent nationalism (antics of Terra Lliure excepted). Hopefully things won't escalate too quickly.
Their headline tonight on the Catalan situation is:
"Catalonian referendum: European Union in crisis as they come under criticism for failing to condemn violent clashes"
Given that the only real criticism have seen from a senior European politician has been from one of the most senior EU politicians, Guy Verhofstadt, I would suggest that is hugely misleading.
It's actually Belarus, believe it or not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_People's_Republic
They went into exile as long ago as 1919.
In real life, the kids start a dozen turns after their parents - and two dozen turns after their grandparents.
They can't win.
And the game never ends.
'This is a coup against Europe'
Pour fuel on the flames then - unbelievably crass
I was about to post something similar about that Telegraph article (though you put it much better). It's a really shoddy piece even by their recent standards.
Catalen presentation is as a bullied small victim.
The victim garners all the good media coverage, sympathy and leeway to misbehave.
Spain can't win in the media now. Therefore they lose.
It's been a long day. Night all, and let's hope cooler heads prevail tomorrow on both sides.
This has got quintessentially fuck all to do with Brexit, except in the most marginal terms,
I remember having a long chat with a smart Andalusian over lunch about four years ago, in Seville. He said "You Brits are mad to let the Scots have an indyref, what if they say YES".
I replied that it was British democracy, the Scots were legally entitled, Scotland was an ancient nation voluntarily part of the UK, and if they voted to secede, that was their right, even though I would bitterly regret it. I also added that I doubted they would quit, in the end
His reaction was very telling: he was contemptuous of the "selfish" Catalunyans, he said they would never be allowed a vote (unlike in the UK), and would never be allowed to leave Spain. And he was a smart liberal democrat.
And here we are. This has very little to do with the EU, this is more about the historic psychodrama of Spain itself, a country divided by language (unlike the UK), and with a history of civil war that remains within living memory.
Seant that last paragraph is very poignant.
Battery gone so goodnight to all
I am sure the EU, in common with our own government and no doubt Merkel and Macron etc. are going to find it really difficult to know which line to take on the Catalonia situation.
On which note, good night everyone.
However, battery out so have a good night Ben
You can tell a lot about someone or something's friends.
https://twitter.com/fuckkingpromise/status/914513631072616448
Looking at the list of sovereign states by date of formation, it's interesting to see the dates. A few in Asia and north africa in thousands BC, smatterings in the early hundreds in Europe
I know nation-states as ideas are not super new in historical terms, but still.
Although looking at the list of states with limited recognition, the pacific island nations seem like a useful place to find someone to recognise you.