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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Infamy, infamy, they’ve all got in for May

SystemSystem Posts: 12,259
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Infamy, infamy, they’ve all got in for May

The front page of The Sunday Telegraph. Sunday Times says Gove & Boris have mended their relationship. Feels like the end game for Mrs May pic.twitter.com/R8rBnaEcYG

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First
  • Think all this has done has secured May until mid 2019 at the earliest
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Boris' article proving popular on facebook
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,730
    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.
  • Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    I think the floated cut is £5000 over the three years of a degree.
  • Test!
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited September 2017
    Again I return to my Brexit Paradox. The only circumstances that allow Brexit to happen are ones which cause Brexit to fail.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.

    We have been for the last 25 years then the other congenital idiot IDS started it. Not once in that entire quarter century have they ruled for the good of the country.
  • Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.

    We get the politicians we deserve.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited September 2017

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    I think the floated cut is £5000 over the three years of a degree.
    So why was £9000 pa needed 7 years ago ? I am sure the PB Tories will do a somersault and explain why a lower figure is a good idea.

    What they won't say is that Corbyn has holed this ship under the water line.
  • MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Never mind Gove and Boris, what is that rebarbative toad Osborne's position in all this?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Odd time to launch the coup !
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind Gove and Boris, what is that rebarbative toad Osborne's position in all this?

    The Genius can't make up his mind. Presumably he will support Hammond. He will be the best choice at this time.
  • surbiton said:

    Odd time to launch the coup !

    Marker for 2019 on
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top
    Corbyn will get the credit.
  • surbiton said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind Gove and Boris, what is that rebarbative toad Osborne's position in all this?

    The Genius can't make up his mind. Presumably he will support Hammond. He will be the best choice at this time.
    The irony for George is that he would be in poll position if he hadn't cut and run after the money
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2017
    The oddest thing about Brexit to my mind is the total disconnect between the political risks, which would be huge even if we had a properly functional government with a good majority, and the complacency of business and the financial markets, both in the UK and in the EU27. Essentially, the markets seem to be priced on the basis that there will be a smooth agreement, no disruption to trade, and a continuance of the sound financial governance we have had since 2010.

    I find this absolutely baffling. After all, there is a substantial risk of a crash-out Brexit followed by a Corbyn-McDonnell extreme hard-left government.

    Why would anyone want to risk investing in the UK in these circumstances?
  • Well my bet on Rees-Mogg at 25-1 is looking better value by the day. I backed Corbyn at 25-1 and Macron at 20-1, so there seems to be a theme here. Unfortunately I backed Watford to win this afternoon; that wasn't so sensible.
  • Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
  • surbiton said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top
    Corbyn will get the credit.
    Yes - but the irony is that this will be popular with tax payers and seen as affordable so making Corbyn's job of justifying complete abolition unrealistic
  • Things are looking critical for Theresa now. She needs to do something drastic. How about getting George Osborne back in the Cabinet, in the same way that Brown did with Mandelson? That would warm her to the huge juicy chunk of Remain supporters who are fearful of Jezza and also assuage the EU, who must think we've been taken over by nutters. Moreover, the bumbling Boris and pipsqueak Gove would be no match for Ozzy's dark arts. This makes an enormous amount of sense.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,338
    edited September 2017
    Speaking to the Observer, the leader of the socialist bloc, Gianni Pittella, fumed: “Boris Johnson is embarrassing his country once again by repeating the lies of the Leave campaign. He is jeopardising the Brexit negotiations by threatening to turn the UK into a low-regulation economy. And he insults the intelligence of the British people with his tub-thumping jingoism. It is more in keeping with Trump Tower than Whitehall.”

    The Italian MEP, echoing the thoughts of many in the European commission, added: “This appears to be yet another twist in the internal warfare within the Conservative party. It does the UK no credit and no service in the wider world. I fear the British government is heading towards the Brexit rocks.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/16/european-union-frustration-britain-heading-for-brexit-rocks
  • MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top
    Should be plenty of ranting in the Evening Standard as Osborne's policies are overturned.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017

    Things are looking critical for Theresa now. She needs to do something drastic. How about getting George Osborne back in the Cabinet, in the same way that Brown did with Mandelson? That would warm her to the huge juicy chunk of Remain supporters who are fearful of Jezza and also assuage the EU, who must think we've been taken over by nutters. Moreover, the bumbling Boris and pipsqueak Gove would be no match for Ozzy's dark arts. This makes an enormous amount of sense.

    I think that would pretty much guarantee her overthrow, actually.
  • The oddest thing about Brexit to my mind is the total disconnect between the political risks, which would be huge even if we had a properly functional government with a good majority, and the complacency of business and the financial markets, both in the UK and in the EU27. Essentially, the markets seem to be priced on the basis that there will be a smooth agreement, no disruption to trade, and a continuance of the sound financial governance we have had since 2010.

    I find this absolutely baffling. After all, there is a substantial risk of a crash-out Brexit followed by a Corbyn-McDonnel extreme hard-left government.

    Why would anyone want to risk investing in the UK in these circumstances?

    Indeed Richard. The £ to the $ has regained all it's " Citizens of Nowhere " losses post the last Tory conference when markets who assumed there would be a deal thought there might not be. How much of that is markets assuming the Hung Parliament means a fudge. But what if the markets are wrong ( again ) ? Because the markets had to make two huge corrections after the referendum and then again after " Citizens of Nowhere ".
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    What are Patel and Gove supporting? Boris saying Brexit means Brexit, albeit in slightly different words? Non story.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2017

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
  • The oddest thing about Brexit to my mind is the total disconnect between the political risks, which would be huge even if we had a properly functional government with a good majority, and the complacency of business and the financial markets, both in the UK and in the EU27. Essentially, the markets seem to be priced on the basis that there will be a smooth agreement, no disruption to trade, and a continuance of the sound financial governance we have had since 2010.

    I find this absolutely baffling. After all, there is a substantial risk of a crash-out Brexit followed by a Corbyn-McDonnell extreme hard-left government.

    Why would anyone want to risk investing in the UK in these circumstances?

    I agree. We are watching a slow motion car crash but no-one quite believes it is happening.

  • May was safe as long as the negotiations with Yerp looked to have direction. Either a deal, or clearly no deal - either woild have kept her safe.

    Instead we have delusion and fantasy - we can be out of the single market but create all the same conditions from the outside, can tell them they need us more than we need them, that we can walk from all EU directives and laws whilst freely trading into the EU.

    We have two choices. Take the Norway route, rejoin EFTA and sign an existing deal, or be all the way out on day 1. There is no middle ground and that's abundantly clear now if it wasn't before. May has rejected both which risks ending up with latter at short notice with the catastrophic shock it would cause. So up steps Alex de Pfeffel to force the all put on day 1 option hopefully with some planning and a shit ton of cash thrown at HMRC to get them ready.
  • Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    As a member I do not want a ballot before Brexit.

    If there was a leadership campaign in the Autumn I would wait to see the two candidates before deciding but I would have to be convinced on Boris, which I am not at present.

    I would like to see younger newer faces and the old guard pass over the batton to the new
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    So if BJ takes over no 10, Gove in 11, where does that leave Davis and the EU negotiations?
  • Things are looking critical for Theresa now. She needs to do something drastic. How about getting George Osborne back in the Cabinet, in the same way that Brown did with Mandelson? That would warm her to the huge juicy chunk of Remain supporters who are fearful of Jezza and also assuage the EU, who must think we've been taken over by nutters. Moreover, the bumbling Boris and pipsqueak Gove would be no match for Ozzy's dark arts. This makes an enormous amount of sense.

    I've been thinking about just that actually. And you can resign peerages now as well so it would be no obstacle to Osborne returning to the Commons at a later date.

    I suspect the issue will Osborne rightly feels his career is in better shape than Mandelson's at the time. Peter had resigned twice from the Cabinet. George is the Editor of an agenda setting newspaper and can return to the Committee be via a safe London seat any time he chooses.
  • Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    The failure and futility of the negotiations are what drives the need for a leadership contest. You don't change your negotiation team when they are making progress. But we are not, so it's the perfect time for a new man at the top and new political direction
  • nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
  • The oddest thing about Brexit to my mind is the total disconnect between the political risks, which would be huge even if we had a properly functional government with a good majority, and the complacency of business and the financial markets, both in the UK and in the EU27. Essentially, the markets seem to be priced on the basis that there will be a smooth agreement, no disruption to trade, and a continuance of the sound financial governance we have had since 2010.

    I find this absolutely baffling. After all, there is a substantial risk of a crash-out Brexit followed by a Corbyn-McDonnell extreme hard-left government.

    Why would anyone want to risk investing in the UK in these circumstances?

    I think there's an element of 'doom fatigue'.

    People might know there's a risk of things falling apart but they expect it will all be sorted out eventually and worrying about things now might lead to more work.

    Likewise with North Korea.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
  • Pong said:

    Things are looking critical for Theresa now. She needs to do something drastic. How about getting George Osborne back in the Cabinet, in the same way that Brown did with Mandelson? That would warm her to the huge juicy chunk of Remain supporters who are fearful of Jezza and also assuage the EU, who must think we've been taken over by nutters. Moreover, the bumbling Boris and pipsqueak Gove would be no match for Ozzy's dark arts. This makes an enormous amount of sense.

    I think that would pretty much guarantee her overthrow, actually.
    And pigs might fly
  • @Richard_Nabavi Thanks. Perhaps that's May's USP then ? That the alternative is just too awful at the particular moment ?
  • Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.

    It absolutely is. Luckily, all those who caused it are completely shielded from the consequences of that. Phew!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017

    Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.

    PM Boris and Chancellor Gove would simply deliver the Brexit they campaigned for and 52% of the country voted for, out of the EU, out of the single market and customs union, ending free movement, lowering taxes and simplifying regulation and no vast payments to the EU with the money saved going to the NHS. If Corbyn and McDonnell want to campaign for higher taxes, more money to the EU rather than the NHS and continued uncontrolled free movement for years then let them
  • Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    The failure and futility of the negotiations are what drives the need for a leadership contest. You don't change your negotiation team when they are making progress. But we are not, so it's the perfect time for a new man at the top and new political direction
    Bit naughty - new man !!!! - could be another woman (the third to labour's nil)
  • Just to repeat from the previous thread since I have been at a wedding this evening.

    Yellow submarine is an outright liar.

    My position has always been completely uniform. If Britain left the EU but chose to immediately join EFTA then our membership of the EEA would be maintained. The fact that May has decided not to do that obviously means that we will almost certainly leave the EEA. But that does not change the basic position nor have I changed my position at all. If we move from the EU to EFTA which is my preferred result then we will remain members of the EEA.

    Yellow submarine is being deliberately dishonest in claiming my position has ever been anything other than this. He is doing so because he got called making dishonest claims and was desperately looking for something to hit back with. Like most unreconciled Remainers he is fundamentally dishonest and falls back on lies when he had lost an argument. It is a shameful position but no more than.i have come to expect from him.
  • @Richard_Nabavi Thanks. Perhaps that's May's USP then ? That the alternative is just too awful at the particular moment ?

    Absolutely. That's why there is substantial support in the party (especially amongst MPs) for her to stay in place until Brexit is done, formally at least.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top
    Reducing the loan rate very sensible and giving government grants only to top research universities sensible too alongside the reduced fees
  • Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
  • HYUFD said:

    Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.

    PM Boris and Chancellor Gove would simply deliver the Brexit they campaigned for and 52% of the country voted for, out of the EU, out of the single market and customs union, ending free movement, lowering taxes and simplifying regulation and no vast payments to the EU with the money saved going to the NHS. If Corbyn and McDonnell want to campaign for higher taxes, more money to the EU rather than the NHS and continued uncontrolled free movement for years then let them

    Yep, by delivering a Brexit that causes lasting, deep damage to the UK economy Boris and Gove would destroy the Tories and what remains of their reputations. But as a patriot I don't think it's worth it.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    OchEye said:

    So if BJ takes over no 10, Gove in 11, where does that leave Davis and the EU negotiations?

    There won't be any. WTO .
  • " PM Boris " ... A pound shop Frank Underwood destroying a second Prime Minister in 2 years so he can become PM without an election then implementing a policy that was rejected by the electorate in June 2017 dispute having no Commons majority. In doing so delivering an enormous economic shock for no reason other than to play rescuer.

    This isn't an episode of House of Cards it's the Sceptred Isle. Conservative MPs need to do what they exist for and start acting conservatively.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Speaking to the Observer, the leader of the socialist bloc, Gianni Pittella, fumed: “Boris Johnson is embarrassing his country once again by repeating the lies of the Leave campaign. He is jeopardising the Brexit negotiations by threatening to turn the UK into a low-regulation economy. And he insults the intelligence of the British people with his tub-thumping jingoism. It is more in keeping with Trump Tower than Whitehall.”

    The Italian MEP, echoing the thoughts of many in the European commission, added: “This appears to be yet another twist in the internal warfare within the Conservative party. It does the UK no credit and no service in the wider world. I fear the British government is heading towards the Brexit rocks.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/16/european-union-frustration-britain-heading-for-brexit-rocks

    Oh good, great to hear from a socialist muppet (author of "A Brief History of the Future of the United States of Europe") from the most corrupt and racist nation in the developed world about what "does the UK no credit." From a nation which made Berlusconi PM four, I say again four, times. I haven't felt so reconciled to leaving for months.
  • surbiton said:

    OchEye said:

    So if BJ takes over no 10, Gove in 11, where does that leave Davis and the EU negotiations?

    There won't be any. WTO .
    But then Liam will be the star of the show for many years, so look on the bright side.
  • surbiton said:

    OchEye said:

    So if BJ takes over no 10, Gove in 11, where does that leave Davis and the EU negotiations?

    There won't be any. WTO .
    If that became the position, then we really would see the immediate 'project fear' reaction that everyone thinks has been disproved, and with another year with the clock ticking...
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I suppose it is the oil in which it is fried.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited September 2017

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Degrees that only result in salaries of £12k-£16k aren't ripping off the students (who may never pay off a penny of their loan in their entire life) but the taxpayer who funds the initial loan that the University skims off.

    There is too much hysteria about students graduating thousands of pounds in debt and not enough about the direct transfer of cash from the taxpayer to Universities which are then educating students poorly.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017
    edit
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,774

    The oddest thing about Brexit to my mind is the total disconnect between the political risks, which would be huge even if we had a properly functional government with a good majority, and the complacency of business and the financial markets, both in the UK and in the EU27. Essentially, the markets seem to be priced on the basis that there will be a smooth agreement, no disruption to trade, and a continuance of the sound financial governance we have had since 2010.

    I find this absolutely baffling. After all, there is a substantial risk of a crash-out Brexit followed by a Corbyn-McDonnell extreme hard-left government.

    Why would anyone want to risk investing in the UK in these circumstances?

    With all the tumult of the last couple of years there has been a familiar theme - everyone, and especially mainstream politicians, assuming sense will prevail right up until the last moment and so failing to fully contemplate the full consequences of what happens if it doesn't. Perhaps, as we dodged the bullet on the financial crash - with leaders managing, just, to keep the show on the road and limiting its effects, at least in the UK and US, to a normal, if deep, downturn and a stunted recovery, we're much too complacent about what can happen if you let the nation's political id run riot.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    An update on the aftermath of Hurricane Irma, for those who might be interested.

    My power was only off for about 28 hours after Monday's storm, and most of the downed trees and power lines were cleared in my neighborhood by early Friday.

    We went up to Dahlonega today. It's where the phrase "There's gold in them thar hills" originated. There are people there whose power only came back on today!

    The power company linemen are being treated like rock stars. There are many reports of them going into restaurants to eat and them not being charged. It's been well reported how hard and long these guys have been working all week to get power restored.

    I saw this at first hand today. Coming home we passed 3 Georgia Power bucket trucks going together up the road towards Dahlonega. Every car going in the opposite direction flashed its lights, hit the horn and waved out the window to them.

    Before you ask - yes, I did.

    Trump is getting rave reviews for his hands on handling of the two hurricanes and the speed with which the administration is responding. He's in his element
  • surbiton said:

    I suppose it is the oil in which it is fried.
    Vegetables are by default Halal
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


  • I'm not saying I understand the Corbyn surge. I absolutely don't understand the Corbyn surge. But does anyone sane on here think it was about " We're keen for May's Hard Brexit but we want it delivered by Boris instead " ?

    In short I understand a Boris coup as tactics but not as strategy. Where do Tory Brexiteers think all this would be going ? What would a replacement for May who'd still have no majority actually do ?
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    That is a fair point, Big G.

    I'm guilty of stereotyping too, but unfortunately the elderly/tech stereotype does have some basis in truth - and some of the consequences are pretty significant (and scary);

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/sep/16/elderly-national-wealthcare-service-help-banking
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017

    I'm not saying I understand the Corbyn surge. I absolutely don't understand the Corbyn surge. But does anyone sane on here think it was about " We're keen for May's Hard Brexit but we want it delivered by Boris instead " ?

    In short I understand a Boris coup as tactics but not as strategy. Where do Tory Brexiteers think all this would be going ? What would a replacement for May who'd still have no majority actually do ?

    The Corbyn surge was largely about the dementia tax and student fees, certainly not to pay vast sums to the EU which could go to the NHS and leave free movement uncontrolled
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    I bet you are losing your hair, have a touch of arthritis and are taking Phyllosan, which "fortifies the over fortys". :-)

    Of course, that could be just wishful thinking on my part :-)
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Speaking to the Observer, the leader of the socialist bloc, Gianni Pittella, fumed: “Boris Johnson is embarrassing his country once again by repeating the lies of the Leave campaign. He is jeopardising the Brexit negotiations by threatening to turn the UK into a low-regulation economy. And he insults the intelligence of the British people with his tub-thumping jingoism. It is more in keeping with Trump Tower than Whitehall.”

    The Italian MEP, echoing the thoughts of many in the European commission, added: “This appears to be yet another twist in the internal warfare within the Conservative party. It does the UK no credit and no service in the wider world. I fear the British government is heading towards the Brexit rocks.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/16/european-union-frustration-britain-heading-for-brexit-rocks

    Oh good, great to hear from a socialist muppet (author of "A Brief History of the Future of the United States of Europe") from the most corrupt and racist nation in the developed world about what "does the UK no credit." From a nation which made Berlusconi PM four, I say again four, times. I haven't felt so reconciled to leaving for months.
    Silvio could be back as Kingmaker in Italy next year too
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    The Treaty of Rome, the precursor to your beloved EU, dates from 1957. So who's living in the 1950s?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Tim_B said:

    An update on the aftermath of Hurricane Irma, for those who might be interested.

    My power was only off for about 28 hours after Monday's storm, and most of the downed trees and power lines were cleared in my neighborhood by early Friday.

    We went up to Dahlonega today. It's where the phrase "There's gold in them thar hills" originated. There are people there whose power only came back on today!

    The power company linemen are being treated like rock stars. There are many reports of them going into restaurants to eat and them not being charged. It's been well reported how hard and long these guys have been working all week to get power restored.

    I saw this at first hand today. Coming home we passed 3 Georgia Power bucket trucks going together up the road towards Dahlonega. Every car going in the opposite direction flashed its lights, hit the horn and waved out the window to them.

    Before you ask - yes, I did.

    Trump is getting rave reviews for his hands on handling of the two hurricanes and the speed with which the administration is responding. He's in his element

    My Californian cousin's husband worked for PG&E. He often made a goodly proportion of his basic salary after winter storms - but then he was away from home for weeks at a time.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017

    I'm not saying I understand the Corbyn surge. I absolutely don't understand the Corbyn surge. But does anyone sane on here think it was about " We're keen for May's Hard Brexit but we want it delivered by Boris instead " ?

    In short I understand a Boris coup as tactics but not as strategy. Where do Tory Brexiteers think all this would be going ? What would a replacement for May who'd still have no majority actually do ?

    Do not think this move by Boris is supported by the MP's or members. Indeed he may have harmed his chances as reports that both the remain and leave MP's are equally annoyed

    A lot in the newspapers is hype and when you read Boris's statement and the articles he is not saying much that is not known already. He does support TM and will accept a transition period with legitimate payments.

    We are all in the bubble on here but some who voters who want out will no doubt be pleased with Boris and many are labour supporters
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637

    HYUFD said:

    Greetings from San Francisco! I'm here to drum up business for Brexit Britain with an event we're hosting on Wednesday.

    If I did not love my country I'd love Boris and Gove in 10 and 11 Downing Street taking absolutely all the flack for the disastrous Brexit they would undoubtedly deliver. But as a patriot I look at what is happening in total despair. What a shambolic shower of self-absorbed incompetents the Tories have assembled to rule over us. We are going to end up paying a heavy price for their vanity, pride and complete stupidity.

    PM Boris and Chancellor Gove would simply deliver the Brexit they campaigned for and 52% of the country voted for, out of the EU, out of the single market and customs union, ending free movement, lowering taxes and simplifying regulation and no vast payments to the EU with the money saved going to the NHS. If Corbyn and McDonnell want to campaign for higher taxes, more money to the EU rather than the NHS and continued uncontrolled free movement for years then let them

    Yep, by delivering a Brexit that causes lasting, deep damage to the UK economy Boris and Gove would destroy the Tories and what remains of their reputations. But as a patriot I don't think it's worth it.

    We were told the economy would be devastated within months of Brexit and it has not happened even after businesses were told we were leaving the single market months ago
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    The Treaty of Rome, the precursor to your beloved EU, dates from 1957. So who's living in the 1950s?
    Indeed and we joined EFTA in 1960 and did not leave it for the EEC until 1973
  • Hum ho.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    surbiton said:

    OchEye said:

    So if BJ takes over no 10, Gove in 11, where does that leave Davis and the EU negotiations?

    There won't be any. WTO .
    Pmsl!
  • Tim_B said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    I bet you are losing your hair, have a touch of arthritis and are taking Phyllosan, which "fortifies the over fortys". :-)

    Of course, that could be just wishful thinking on my part :-)
    Hair loss started at 45, have had arthritis since my mid 30's and it is getting worse but I have never taken Phyllosan.

    Mind you I had an uncle who was terminal with cancer and in his last days when asked 'How are you' - he replied with the never to be forgotten words 'Why should a breathing man complain ' (bless him)
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    No forward to a fantastic future
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    AIUI, decent CompSci graduates are getting great starting salaries right now.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    The Treaty of Rome, the precursor to your beloved EU, dates from 1957. So who's living in the 1950s?
    Amended many times since to keep up with the changing times as you know Sunil
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    The Treaty of Rome, the precursor to your beloved EU, dates from 1957. So who's living in the 1950s?
    Amended many times since to keep up with the changing times as you know Sunil
    The problem is it is not keeping up with changing times
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    So you really think a junior doctor earns £45k within 6 months of qualifying. What planet are these people on.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    I suppose it is the oil in which it is fried.
    Vegetables are by default Halal
    It's not the oil - but what's cooked in it. For example, many Muslims [ and Jews ] would not eat chips fried in oil where sausage has also been fried.
  • Chris_A said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    So you really think a junior doctor earns £45k within 6 months of qualifying. What planet are these people on.
    Maybe not junior doctors but the article did quote £45,000 after 6 months
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Chris_A said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    So you really think a junior doctor earns £45k within 6 months of qualifying. What planet are these people on.
    Maybe not junior doctors but the article did quote £45,000 after 6 months
    Solicitors with the big 5 and Chartered Accountants with the larger firms [ after qualifying ] could earn that kind of money.
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Serious non rhetorical question for our Tory peeps. Could there really be a members postal ballot and campaign over an Autumn to select a new PM ? How would that play with ongoing Brexit negotiations ?

    And if that's not credible how would Tory members feel about a second coronation in short succession ?

    Genuine questions to paid up Tory members.

    I believe that, after the GE2017 election, that questions was investigated and the answer was, IIRC, that it would take at least 11 weeks to hold a full leadership contest. The exact timetable is entirely at the discretion of the 1922 committee, but obviously there are practical constraints.

    How would that play with existing Brexit negotiations? Disastrously.

    However, I don't think another coronation is credible. There is no outstanding consensus candidate, and worse still it's not just a question of personalities, there is a genuine split on policy. So I can't see MPs, let alone the wider party, coalescing quickly around one candidate.

    In other words, it's a disaster.
    In this day and age, why?

    Online hustings - several over the course of a week. Electronic voting the following weekend. All done and dusted in 10 days.

    Oops I forgot your average Tory member is 72 and that's why we're all being dragged kicking and screaming back to the 1950s.
    I am 73 and do not live in the 1950's

    I have adopted modern tech with S8+phone, two notebooks, desk top pc, and Sky Q.

    My wife is 78 and has her own smartphone, apple i pad, and is active on social media

    You should not stereotype us oldies
    Yes you do, you support Brexit. No policy more designed to drag us back to the 1950s.
    The Treaty of Rome, the precursor to your beloved EU, dates from 1957. So who's living in the 1950s?
    Amended many times since to keep up with the changing times as you know Sunil
    But the original idea of EU integration dates from the 1950s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    Chris_A said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    So you really think a junior doctor earns £45k within 6 months of qualifying. What planet are these people on.
    Certainly around £35 000, medicine has the highest graduate earnings premium. City law firms certainly pay that much for their neely qualifieds and investment bankers for their recent graduates
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017
    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    MikeL said:

    If Hammond cuts tuition fees from £9k to 4K, risk is that it makes Corbyn plan look more affordable.

    ie Response will be "If you can suddenly find the money to cut fees that much then it's not that much more of a stretch to abolish them completely".

    But politically probably still better for Con than doing nothing.

    The proposals are to reduce fees to £7,500 with a government grant of £1,500 for the top universities. Also to reduce the loan rate and increase the starting figure from £21,000 to £25,000

    Additionally to require value for money and address excessive salaries and perks at the top

    £3k is about the highest defensible level.
    Reducing it to £7.5k is peanuts. It won't make any difference to your debt servitude if you are a graduate earning mid £20k per annum.
    The point in the Times article is the concern that some degrees are proving near worthless with students starting on £12,000 - £16,000 salaries will the top universities graduates average £45,000 wthin 6 months.

    Some of these so called Universities should be turned into FE colleges
    Those figures for top universities must be wrong. Very few graduate jobs pay £45 k within 6 months.

    Looking at the average salary figures, many graduates struggle to hit £30k in their careers. This is even true if you go to a top university. Most jobs just don't pay that kind of money. Particualrly in the public sector, with the pay freeze. There are some sectors that are an exception.


    Economics and medicine and engineering and some law graduates from the Russell Group could ve on that but not many more agreed
    AIUI, decent CompSci graduates are getting great starting salaries right now.
    Yes you can add IT graduates and consultants too, especially at firms like Google and Apple
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017
    Is this real, or is this Hammond is being set up for a fall in his November budget?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4482588/chancellor-set-to-slash-tuition-fees-by-5000-amid-fury-over-uni-cash-mountain/
  • Who knew the District Line went so far south and east?

    Armed officers stormed the property hours after arresting the 18-year-old man believed to have planted the Parsons Green bomb in Dover.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    I do wish the Tories would keep their fratricidal destruction to themselves and not destruct everyone else along with them.
  • So much for reforming the EU:

    Citizens of seven European countries were asked what they believe the next German government’s priorities should be. The most striking difference was on the subject of EU reform. Just 13 percent of Germans listed it among their top priorities, compared to 26 percent of the French and 27 percent of Brits – even though Britain is bound to exit the European Union (see graphic).

    https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/dont-talk-about-europe-826401
  • If the proposals re fees are really what @Big_G_NorthWales is saying, then I can't see that cutting much ice with students at all. All this does is cede further ground to Labour on this issue.

    Meanwhile, looking at events this weekend, I'm more and more convinced that whenever the next GE is, it won't be won by the Tories. They are so bad that I honestly wouldn't rule out voting Corbyn in 2019/2020/2021/2022 (whenever the next GE is).
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    May will probably still be PM in two years time. The political chattering class love to work themselves up into a frenzy on a Sunday morning. On a practical note, the Tories should abolish tuition fees altogether, cutting Labour's ground from beneath it. Voters are not going to accept a cut in fees when the Opposition is offering to abolish them altogether.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    stevef said:

    May will probably still be PM in two years time. The political chattering class love to work themselves up into a frenzy on a Sunday morning. On a practical note, the Tories should abolish tuition fees altogether, cutting Labour's ground from beneath it. Voters are not going to accept a cut in fees when the Opposition is offering to abolish them altogether.

    No. That would mean raising taxes on skilled working class C2 voters who voted Tory last time and are mainly non graduates to pay off the fees of lower middle class C1s who voted Labour last time and more likely to be graduates. Political suicide.

    Far better is to link fees to post graduate earnings, with degrees which lead to higher earnings paying more and the reverse as suggested Hammond may do on the Sunday Politics
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637

    If the proposals re fees are really what @Big_G_NorthWales is saying, then I can't see that cutting much ice with students at all. All this does is cede further ground to Labour on this issue.

    Meanwhile, looking at events this weekend, I'm more and more convinced that whenever the next GE is, it won't be won by the Tories. They are so bad that I honestly wouldn't rule out voting Corbyn in 2019/2020/2021/2022 (whenever the next GE is).

    Given you never vote Tory hardly a surprise!
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    May will probably still be PM in two years time. The political chattering class love to work themselves up into a frenzy on a Sunday morning. On a practical note, the Tories should abolish tuition fees altogether, cutting Labour's ground from beneath it. Voters are not going to accept a cut in fees when the Opposition is offering to abolish them altogether.

    No. That would mean raising taxes on skilled working class C2 voters who voted Tory last time and are mainly non graduates to pay off the fees of lower middle class C1s who voted Labour last time and more likely to be graduates. Political suicide.

    Far better is to link fees to post graduate earnings, with degrees which lead to higher earnings paying more and the reverse as suggested Hammond may do on the Sunday Politics
    Corbyn claims that he can abolish tuition fees without putting up taxes -he says that it can be paid for by putting up corporation tax. This has not yet been refuted. The Tories need to understand two things 1). Not a single member of the current cabinet will beat Corbyn in an election 2). Tuition fees have to go -at least for those whose degrees lead them to socially useful jobs like teachers/doctors etc.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    If the proposals re fees are really what @Big_G_NorthWales is saying, then I can't see that cutting much ice with students at all. All this does is cede further ground to Labour on this issue.

    Meanwhile, looking at events this weekend, I'm more and more convinced that whenever the next GE is, it won't be won by the Tories. They are so bad that I honestly wouldn't rule out voting Corbyn in 2019/2020/2021/2022 (whenever the next GE is).

    Given you never vote Tory hardly a surprise!
    I'm a Labour supporter but a staunch opponent of Corbyn. I believe that a Corbyn government would destroy the Labour party and toxify Labour for a generation. A Labour defeat at the next general election would save the Labour party from that fate.
    The Tories might not be able to win the next election -although the belief that Corbyn will might well be the self denying prophecy that predicted Labour wins often are -but neither can Labour win an outright majority. A hung parliament with a minority Labour government at the mercy of the Liberals and other parties will frustrate Corbynista dreams of a hard left Jerusalem, anger a lot of people who will be disappointed by his broken promises in office, while at the same time annoying a lot of moderate voters and paving the way for a Tory landslide.
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