If I may disagree with all three of you for the moment. This thread encapsulates many PB recent concepts over the past week so forgive me if I use it as a coatrack to deal with several at once. The concepts are:
* The EU forced the UK to Vote Leave/Article 50 by acting unreasonably * The EU is acting illegally/unreasonably/unrealistically in the present negotiations * The EU will die/suffer greatly following UK departure
The EU did nothing to/with the UK that the UK did not consent to, or indeed actively encourage.
Untrue. I suggest you go and look at John Major's letters to the Commission over the extension of EU competence into areas we did not agree to via rulings of the ECJ.
Do you have a link/summary of that I could read more about as I'm interested in that?
It could have understood that Britain had a very different historical, cultural and legal perspective and sought to accommodate this in an intelligent way.
That's all very well, but how do you square this with the overwhelming support for the EU in Ireland?
Money?
That and it gave Ireland a way of no longer being seen as Britain's appendage. Plus Ireland - being largely Catholic - already felt itself to be culturally more European, at least in some respects, than Britain.
Edited: I would also say that Britain's very different legal, historical and cultural heritage defined it as Britain - and that meant to a certain extent as being not Continental European and in opposition to the hegemonic power in Europe, whether France, Spain or Germany.
The same was not true for Ireland. Its Irish identity was formed in opposition to Britain not in opposition to whatever the main Irish ower was. If anything, Ireland at various times sought help from Britain's enemies - see Wolf Tone, the French and the rebellion which led to the 1801 Act of Union.
Bit like Scotland's.
Indeed. One reason why I understand the wish for independence.
I'm only here to point out that I've left. I just want to make that clear.
This site is more fun when you are around. So do come back. But as someone who alternates in spending too much time here and disappearing for long stretches, I know the feeling.
The site certainly is more fun with seant on it , the last few weeks (months)of the remain side's moaning is boring the hell out of the place.
Grim reality tends to be more boring than crazed fantasy.
There's something in that. I feel like Che Guevara, after the commies seized Havana, when he was appointed Agriculture Minister, and hated the tedium of it, after all the excitement of the revolution.
Eventually he fucked off to Bolivia to get himself killed.
OTOH politics (and hence PB) just IS more boring, Brexit or otherwise (especially as I am sure we headed for a dull fudged softish Brexit, despite all the theatrics). Ou sont les indyrefs and Trump elex d'antan?
and I've run out of insults to hurl. And I'm just not that angry any more. Life has been too good to me. I can't work up the rage for more than 10 minutes, I used to go whole days of fulminating.
Hey ho.
If the next general election is Boris v Corbyn that would certainly liven things up.
In the meantime we have the German and New Zealand elections later this month.
O/T Just coming back from the 'Game for Grenfell' at Loftus Road, was pretty much a capacity crowd, plenty of celebrities turned out for teams Shearer and Ferdinand including Mo Farah, Jose Mourinho, Ed Westwick, Damian Lewis, Russell Howard, Jarvis Cocker and Jack Whitehall and they also brought on some firemen who attended the blaze as well as a few survivors which was a nice touch
With the exception of economic implosion (widespread bank failures, Great Depressions), civil racial conflict (internment of Muslims etc) or actual war - and I mean war with missiles landing in Europe and Britain sending large armies overseas - then I cannot foresee any political events outdoing the period 2013-2017 for excitement and surprise, for at least a decade.
There now. I've tempted Fate. Where is She?
Indeed but PB survived perfectly well from 2004 to 2012 before all the excitement amd drama of the last few years
I started to follow PB in 2012-13; so maybe it's all my fault.
I don't think the real 'excitement' in SeanT terms started until indyref 2014
I'm only here to point out that I've left. I just want to make that clear.
This site is more fun when you are around. So do come back. But as someone who alternates in spending too much time here and disappearing for long stretches, I know the feeling.
The site certainly is more fun with seant on it , the last few weeks (months)of the remain side's moaning is boring the hell out of the place.
Grim reality tends to be more boring than crazed fantasy.
There's something in that. I feel like Che Guevara, after the commies seized Havana, when he was appointed Agriculture Minister, and hated the tedium of it, after all the excitement of the revolution.
Eventually he fucked off to Bolivia to get himself killed.
OTOH politics (and hence PB) just IS more boring, Brexit or otherwise (especially as I am sure we headed for a dull fudged softish Brexit, despite all the theatrics). Ou sont les indyrefs and Trump elex d'antan?
and I've run out of insults to hurl. And I'm just not that angry any more. Life has been too good to me. I can't work up the rage for more than 10 minutes, I used to go whole days of fulminating.
Hey ho.
If the next general election is Boris v Corbyn that would certainly liven things up.
In the meantime we have the German and New Zealand elections later this month.
O/T Just coming back from the 'Game for Grenfell' at Loftus Road, was pretty much a capacity crowd, plenty of celebrities turned out for teams Shearer and Ferdinand including Mo Farah, Jose Mourinho, Ed Westwick, Damian Lewis, Russell Howard, Jarvis Cocker and Jack Whitehall and they also brought on some firemen who attended the blaze as well as a few survivors which was a nice touch
With the exception of economic implosion (widespread bank failures, Great Depressions), civil racial conflict (internment of Muslims etc) or actual war - and I mean war with missiles landing in Europe and Britain sending large armies overseas - then I cannot foresee any political events outdoing the period 2013-2017 for excitement and surprise, for at least a decade.
There now. I've tempted Fate. Where is She?
Indeed but PB survived perfectly well from 2004 to 2012 before all the excitement amd drama of the last few years
That was when we had daily debates on the merits of different policy ideas. Now it is just brexit brexit brexit.
We still discuss a few other topics to go but less than 2 years to go and we will finally have Brexited
I'm only here to point out that I've left. I just want to make that clear.
This site is more fun when you are around. So do come back. But as someone who alternates in spending too much time here and disappearing for long stretches, I know the feeling.
The site certainly is more fun with seant on it , the last few weeks (months)of the remain side's moaning is boring the hell out of the place.
Grim reality tends to be more boring than crazed fantasy.
There's something in that. I feel like Che Guevara, after the commies seized Havana, when he was appointed Agriculture Minister, and hated the tedium of it, after all the excitement of the revolution.
Eventually he fucked off to Bolivia to get himself killed.
OTOH politics (and hence PB) just IS more boring, Brexit or otherwise (especially as I am sure we headed for a dull fudged softish Brexit, despite all the theatrics). Ou sont les indyrefs and Trump elex d'antan?
and I've run out of insults to hurl. And I'm just not that angry any more. Life has been too good to me. I can't work up the rage for more than 10 minutes, I used to go whole days of fulminating.
Hey ho.
If the next general election is Boris v Corbyn that would certainly liven things up.
In the meantime we have the German and New Zealand elections later this month.
O/T Just coming back from the 'Game for Grenfell' at Loftus Road, was pretty h
With the exception of economic implosion (widespread bank failures, Great Depressions), civil racial conflict (internment of Muslims etc) or actual war - and I mean war with missiles landing in Europe and Britain sending large armies overseas - then I cannot foresee any political events outdoing the period 2013-2017 for excitement and surprise, for at least a decade.
There now. I've tempted Fate. Where is She?
Indeed but PB survived perfectly well from 2004 to 2012 before all the excitement amd drama of the last few years
There was also quite a lot of drama in those years: the rise of Cameron, the aftermath of the Iraq war, Brown, Northern Rock, the financial crisis, Obama, 7/7, the first coalition for a while.......
It's boring competence we're short of.
That was supposed to be May's key merit but did not quite work out that way
I'm only here to point out that I've left. I just want to make that clear.
This site is more fun when you are around. So do come back. But as someone who alternates in spending too much time here and disappearing for long stretches, I know the feeling.
The site certainly is more fun with seant on it , the last few weeks (months)of the remain side's moaning is boring the hell out of the place.
I find Brexit fascinating precisely because it is intractable. How can anyone resolve the massive contradictions, made more impossible by the political baggage carried by Brexit? But resolved they must be, after a fashion. David touches on this in his header.
It could have understood that Britain had a very different historical, cultural and legal perspective and sought to accommodate this in an intelligent way.
That's all very well, but how do you square this with the overwhelming support for the EU in Ireland?
Money?
That and it gave Ireland a way of no longer being seen as Britain's appendage. Plus Ireland - being largely Catholic - already felt itself to be culturally more European, at least in some respects, than Britain.
Edited: I would also say that Britain's very different legal, historical and cultural heritage defined it as Britain - and that meant to a certain extent as being not Continental European and in opposition to the hegemonic power in Europe, whether France, Spain or Germany.
The same was not true for Ireland. Its Irish identity was formed in opposition to Britain not in opposition to whatever the main Irish ower was. If anything, Ireland at various times sought help from Britain's enemies - see Wolf Tone, the French and the rebellion which led to the 1801 Act of Union.
BTW...I really do apologise for my dreadful David Ferrer tip last week for the USOP. Not quite on the scale of JackW's miserable POTUS 2016; or going back some OGH's France 2007 or some of Roger's tips....but it was pretty bloody awful all the same....
I understand that when the Palace of Westminster is closed for refurbishment in 2019 (for up to 5 years) plans are in place to use the European parliament building is Strasbourg (which is otherwise only used one week a month. I think this is an excellent example of post-Brexit collaboration
I wish....my bro actually lives in America..he's a Brexit/Trump supporting, multi millionaire (x times multi, like really fucking loaded), Ferrari driving, climate change denying, meat eating, Man Utd supporting, psychotic piece of work.
I understand that when the Palace of Westminster is closed for refurbishment in 2019 (for up to 5 years) plans are in place to use the European parliament building is Strasbourg (which is otherwise only used one week a month. I think this is an excellent example of post-Brexit collaboration
It would be the first time anything approaching democracy had been practiced there.
A rare opportunity for me to comment on a David H piece, for which, as always, my friend, many thanks.
To be honest, I've always found the Conservative Party brutally pragmatic in these matters. Margaret Thatcher, despite 15 years of leadership and three General Election victories, was removed when she became an electoral liability or, more precisely, when others became less of a liability or more of an asset.
May now finds herself in a similar state. She may or may not be a loser at the moment (Labour was 10 points ahead of a Conservative Party led by Thatcher at the end and level pegging with a Party led by Heseltine or Major) but no other Conservative can claim to do significantly better.
Indeed, before the Epping Tory pipes up, May is close to gaining a majority but will that remain the case ? IF she starts to drag the Conservatives further behind Labour and if it is clearly demonstrated Johnson, Davis or whoever could restore the party's fortunes and help marginal MPs keep their seats, the pressure really will be on.
It could very well be the case that the Conservatives will be trusted to produce the future but Labour will be asked to deliver it.
I wish....my bro actually lives in America..he's a Brexit/Trump supporting, multi millionaire (x times multi, like really fucking loaded), Ferrari driving, climate change denying, meat eating, Man Utd supporting, psychotic piece of work.
"Paul Joseph Watson, an InfoWars editor known for getting regularly humiliated in social media arguments, has just been caught making yet another historically illiterate argument.
As the Independent reports, the trouble for Watson began when he claimed that Antifa — the left-wing vigilante organization that endorses violent confrontations with neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups — was the “most hateful group in America.” Further, Watson said that author George Orwell “rolls in his grave” at the sight of Antifa."
A rare opportunity for me to comment on a David H piece, for which, as always, my friend, many thanks.
To be honest, I've always found the Conservative Party brutally pragmatic in these matters. Margaret Thatcher, despite 15 years of leadership and three General Election victories, was removed when she became an electoral liability or, more precisely, when others became less of a liability or more of an asset.
May now finds herself in a similar state. She may or may not be a loser at the moment (Labour was 10 points ahead of a Conservative Party led by Thatcher at the end and level pegging with a Party led by Heseltine or Major) but no other Conservative can claim to do significantly better.
Indeed, before the Epping Tory pipes up, May is close to gaining a majority but will that remain the case ? IF she starts to drag the Conservatives further behind Labour and if it is clearly demonstrated Johnson, Davis or whoever could restore the party's fortunes and help marginal MPs keep their seats, the pressure really will be on.
It could very well be the case that the Conservatives will be trusted to produce the future but Labour will be asked to deliver it.
The Epping Tory agrees with your penultimate paragraph you may be pleased to here.
However on your last paragraph if the Tories have a Brexit deal with a transition period of a year or two maximum and then end free movement and take the UK out of the single market and Labour commits to keep free movement for 4 or 5+ more years to ensure a longer transition period within the single market that could prove a hard sell in Labour Leave seats in the North and Midlands which Boris or Davis would try and exploit
I wish....my bro actually lives in America..he's a Brexit/Trump supporting, multi millionaire (x times multi, like really fucking loaded), Ferrari driving, climate change denying, meat eating, Man Utd supporting, psychotic piece of work.
Obviously we do not talk that much....
Tell him I love him, in a non-gay dudely bromantic kind of way.
My other bro is a millionaire (maybe double but not that much to speak home of really), Brexit supporting, climate change denying, Trump loving, cruise travelling (how the hell could anyone pay to travel on a cruise with a bunch of Tory, Daily Mail reading, polluting fuckwits), Jaguar driving, meat eating, knobhead....
Quite how my two Brexit brothers are related to me is a catastrophic mistake of genetic biology. But the pair of them unfortunately are a couple of twats.
"Paul Joseph Watson, an InfoWars editor known for getting regularly humiliated in social media arguments, has just been caught making yet another historically illiterate argument.
As the Independent reports, the trouble for Watson began when he claimed that Antifa — the left-wing vigilante organization that endorses violent confrontations with neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups — was the “most hateful group in America.” Further, Watson said that author George Orwell “rolls in his grave” at the sight of Antifa."
Antifa seem to be famous for "throwing Molotov cocktails and smashing windows; causing $100,000 worth of damage". If they think that puts them on a par with fighting in a proper shooting war, that makes them a bunch of self-regarding twats. Perhaps Watson's point is that Orwell did not like self-regarding twats?
Clearly spin from No 10. I suppose the word "secret" is there to add authenticity. Nevertheless significant. The government is moving to accept EU demands
Clearly spin from No 10. I suppose the word "secret" is there to add authenticity. Nevertheless significant. The government is moving to accept EU demands
I think it says "up to 50bn" in the first sentence. Expectation management.
Do you really care TSE that much? Are you just not getting a little bit bored of Brexit, Corbyn, Theresa May and all the Donald Trump crap? It's just non stop samey samey.
Granted Trump's corrosive ability to wear out the press and opposition through his hyperbolic, narcissistic personality disorder is singularly unique, but Brexit is just tiresome. I have reached the point where I have lost the will to argue the toss with Brexiters because they are just dumb, each and every one of them.
Do you really care TSE that much? Are you just not getting a little bit bored of Brexit, Corbyn, Theresa May and all the Donald Trump crap? It's just non stop samey samey.
Granted Trump's corrosive ability to wear out the press and opposition through his hyperbolic, narcissistic personality disorder is singularly unique, but Brexit is just tiresome. I have reached the point where I have lost the will to argue the toss with Brexiters because they are just dumb, each and every one of them.
Never fear PM Boris could be greeting President Trump at No 10 soon enough and you may have PM/Kingmaker Berlusconi again too down your way next year to liven things up even further!
"Paul Joseph Watson, an InfoWars editor known for getting regularly humiliated in social media arguments, has just been caught making yet another historically illiterate argument.
As the Independent reports, the trouble for Watson began when he claimed that Antifa — the left-wing vigilante organization that endorses violent confrontations with neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups — was the “most hateful group in America.” Further, Watson said that author George Orwell “rolls in his grave” at the sight of Antifa."
Antifa seem to be famous for "throwing Molotov cocktails and smashing windows; causing $100,000 worth of damage". If they think that puts them on a par with fighting in a proper shooting war, that makes them a bunch of self-regarding twats. Perhaps Watson's point is that Orwell did not like self-regarding twats?
Though Orwell did join a Trotskyite militia, and actively fought Fascists himself.
I wish....my bro actually lives in America..he's a Brexit/Trump supporting, multi millionaire (x times multi, like really fucking loaded), Ferrari driving, climate change denying, meat eating, Man Utd supporting, psychotic piece of work.
Obviously we do not talk that much....
Tell him I love him, in a non-gay dudely bromantic kind of way.
My other bro is a millionaire (maybe double but not that much to speak home of really), Brexit supporting, climate change denying, Trump loving, cruise travelling (how the hell could anyone pay to travel on a cruise with a bunch of Tory, Daily Mail reading, polluting fuckwits), Jaguar driving, meat eating, knobhead....
Quite how my two Brexit brothers are related to me is a catastrophic mistake of genetic biology. But the pair of them unfortunately are a couple of twats.
I would suggest that you wear that description far more effectively than your two brothers. I can only assume that they have made a success of their lives in a way you have singularly failed to do and therefore your antipathy is fired by jealousy and self loathing. You have always stuck me as the failed, self loathing type.
It could have understood that Britain had a very different historical, cultural and legal perspective and sought to accommodate this in an intelligent way.
That's all very well, but how do you square this with the overwhelming support for the EU in Ireland?
Money?
That and it gave Ireland a way of no longer being seen as Britain's appendage. Plus Ireland - being largely Catholic - already felt itself to be culturally more European, at least in some respects, than Britain.
Edited: I would also say that Britain's very different legal, historical and cultural heritage defined it as Britain - and that meant to a certain extent as being not Continental European and in opposition to the hegemonic power in Europe, whether France, Spain or Germany.
The same was not true for Ireland. Its Irish identity was formed in opposition to Britain not in opposition to whatever the main Irish ower was. If anything, Ireland at various times sought help from Britain's enemies - see Wolf Tone, the French and the rebellion which led to the 1801 Act of Union.
Comments
http://www.johnmajor.co.uk/page1344.html
Major lost the 97 election before the issue could be taken further and I doubt he would have got anywhere anyway.
Betting PostF1: backed Williams to double score at 3.5. They start 2nd and 7th.
Reasoning and rambling is here: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/italy-pre-race-2017.html
Governor of Texas Greg Abbott has said the state may need more than $125bn in aid.
But obsessions are bad. Sigh ...
* Not the same as a retweet!
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/02/fabio-fognini-thrown-out-us-open-obscenities-umpire
BTW...I really do apologise for my dreadful David Ferrer tip last week for the USOP. Not quite on the scale of JackW's miserable POTUS 2016; or going back some OGH's France 2007 or some of Roger's tips....but it was pretty bloody awful all the same....
Obviously we do not talk that much....
A rare opportunity for me to comment on a David H piece, for which, as always, my friend, many thanks.
To be honest, I've always found the Conservative Party brutally pragmatic in these matters. Margaret Thatcher, despite 15 years of leadership and three General Election victories, was removed when she became an electoral liability or, more precisely, when others became less of a liability or more of an asset.
May now finds herself in a similar state. She may or may not be a loser at the moment (Labour was 10 points ahead of a Conservative Party led by Thatcher at the end and level pegging with a Party led by Heseltine or Major) but no other Conservative can claim to do significantly better.
Indeed, before the Epping Tory pipes up, May is close to gaining a majority but will that remain the case ? IF she starts to drag the Conservatives further behind Labour and if it is clearly demonstrated Johnson, Davis or whoever could restore the party's fortunes and help marginal MPs keep their seats, the pressure really will be on.
It could very well be the case that the Conservatives will be trusted to produce the future but Labour will be asked to deliver it.
As the Independent reports, the trouble for Watson began when he claimed that Antifa — the left-wing vigilante organization that endorses violent confrontations with neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups — was the “most hateful group in America.” Further, Watson said that author George Orwell “rolls in his grave” at the sight of Antifa."
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/read-a-fcking-book-historian-humiliates-infowars-editor-who-claimed-george-orwell-would-have-hated-antifa/
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/904073557164085248
However on your last paragraph if the Tories have a Brexit deal with a transition period of a year or two maximum and then end free movement and take the UK out of the single market and Labour commits to keep free movement for 4 or 5+ more years to ensure a longer transition period within the single market that could prove a hard sell in Labour Leave seats in the North and Midlands which Boris or Davis would try and exploit
Quite how my two Brexit brothers are related to me is a catastrophic mistake of genetic biology. But the pair of them unfortunately are a couple of twats.
Granted Trump's corrosive ability to wear out the press and opposition through his hyperbolic, narcissistic personality disorder is singularly unique, but Brexit is just tiresome. I have reached the point where I have lost the will to argue the toss with Brexiters because they are just dumb, each and every one of them.
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