Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Amber Rudd moves to joint 3rd CON leader favourite following s

2

Comments

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    The Will Tanner piece in the Guardian is interesting and illustrates an interesting paradox at the heart of modern Conservative thinking.

    On the one hand, there's a lot of talk about aspiration and opportunity and economic measures aimed at helping the lower paid and lower earners and these are straight out of the Coalition playbook - cutting employer NI and raising stamp duty threshold to get more people owning and fewer renting.

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    May tried to reach out to those who had never voted Conservative and was in some respects successful but the price for that support (or the way of paying for the inducements for that support) was to put forward ideas which frightened off some of the core vote.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    Charles said:


    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...

    Indeed and it's much easier to negotiate from a position of strength rather than weakness. If Kim has missiles which can strike the CONUS he will be in a stronger position. The question then becomes if Trump is going to follow the 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine and attack any nation which develops such a ballistic capability.

    It's too late to worry about Russia and China but if NK conclusively demonstrates it could strike San Francisco or LA with a nuclear missile it would be analogous to the Russians being able to do the same from Cuba in 1962 - no American administration would tolerate that threat.

  • Options
    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right
  • Options
    VinnyVinny Posts: 48
    All this speculation about Rudd as a future Conservative leader misses the point: a 'remainer,' as she is, is unacceptable to the Conservative Party, just as the centre-left Heseltine was twenty five years ago. With the UK oleaving the EU, there can only be a Brexiteer in charge. It will probably be Johnson or Davis, with Gove an outsider. Demands made to 'skip a generation' were made by Remainers with a view to getting Rudd in. It won't work.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited August 2017
    Vinny said:

    All this speculation about Rudd as a future Conservative leader misses the point: a 'remainer,' as she is, is unacceptable to the Conservative Party, just as the centre-left Heseltine was twenty five years ago. With the UK oleaving the EU, there can only be a Brexiteer in charge. It will probably be Johnson or Davis, with Gove an outsider. Demands made to 'skip a generation' were made by Remainers with a view to getting Rudd in. It won't work.

    Just out of interest - if you don't mind me asking - did you vote tory or ukip in 2015?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
    Trump would activate his very smart, very secret plan to defeat North Korea
  • Options
    stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Rudd has three big problems: the third is that she comes across as totally voter unfriendly, as as strident and "shoutey" Her name also sounds like a traffic light changing colour.
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Vinny said:

    All this speculation about Rudd as a future Conservative leader misses the point: a 'remainer,' as she is, is unacceptable to the Conservative Party, just as the centre-left Heseltine was twenty five years ago. With the UK oleaving the EU, there can only be a Brexiteer in charge. It will probably be Johnson or Davis, with Gove an outsider. Demands made to 'skip a generation' were made by Remainers with a view to getting Rudd in. It won't work.

    Agreed. The only way for Rudd or Hammond is a coronation and the members would not stand for another of those events as the Remain dominated MPs are not trusted by the members.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
    I'm guessing a strike on all known missile sites?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,718
    Assuming May jumps or is pushed, who do the CERTAINLY NOT Rudd commentators think should AND will be the next Tory party leader? The two questions don't necessarily have the same answer.
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    To be paid when? If at death that would create a mess with IHT. Currently CGT is excluded at death.

    It would also act as a disincentive on the elderly to downsize, something which helps the property market.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
    I'm guessing a strike on all known missile sites?
    Wouldn't that be illegal?
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Allan said:

    Vinny said:

    All this speculation about Rudd as a future Conservative leader misses the point: a 'remainer,' as she is, is unacceptable to the Conservative Party, just as the centre-left Heseltine was twenty five years ago. With the UK oleaving the EU, there can only be a Brexiteer in charge. It will probably be Johnson or Davis, with Gove an outsider. Demands made to 'skip a generation' were made by Remainers with a view to getting Rudd in. It won't work.

    Agreed. The only way for Rudd or Hammond is a coronation and the members would not stand for another of those events as the Remain dominated MPs are not trusted by the members.
    Just how much power do the grass roots members have in the Tory party? The bulk of the funds come from donors, so they aren't necessary from a financial point of view. The doorstep campaigning appears to be run centrally. They are gate keepers to safe seats, but they have to chose from a centrally selected lists. So while it would be bad PR to upset them, the leadership could afford to ignore their wishes for a fair while without any big problem?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
    I'm guessing a strike on all known missile sites?
    What of the unknown missile sites? Seoul has 10 million inhabitants and is almost on the border with North Korea -- a reasonably powerful trebuchet would cause mass casualties.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Allan said:

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    To be paid when? If at death that would create a mess with IHT. Currently CGT is excluded at death.

    It would also act as a disincentive on the elderly to downsize, something which helps the property market.
    When it is no longer reinvested in a PPR (i.e. on death or downsizing)

    It wouldn't act as a disincentive to downsizing - the liability would exist in any event, so people should be indifferent from that perspective as to whether they downsize or whether they remain invested until death.

    From an IHT perspective, CGT would be a liability on the estate and therefore would reduce the taxable amount prior to the IHT calculation being made.

    Fundamentally, there is an incentive to over invest in property rather than productive assets and this needs to be addressed.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    RoyalBlue said:



    Most constructive and balanced major power in world affairs? How can you possibly reconcile that with them propping up the most heinous regime in the world today, as well as their unilateral territory grabs in the South China Sea?

    I think that dealing with North Korea is genuinely tricky, even for China - if the Korean regime were in, say, Ireland, with nukes and missiles and a potential flood of refugees if the economy collapsed, we'd be juggling pressure and tactical assistance too.

    As for the South China Sea, it's not obvious that any of the border claims are really copper-bottomed, and it's not really unusual big power behaviour that they're trying to elbow their way into the best position.

    Compared with Trump and Putin, they do seem to me the most level-headed. Which of the three do you feel most confident about causing least global unrest?
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    The danger for Rudd is the Home Office's line on encryption risks making her look a fool.

    Encryption is a fourth tier issue. Less than 1% of the population understand it and less than 0.5% care about it.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    FF43 said:

    Assuming May jumps or is pushed, who do the CERTAINLY NOT Rudd commentators think should AND will be the next Tory party leader? The two questions don't necessarily have the same answer.

    Should: Ken Clarke
    Will: (Pessimistically) Priti Patel
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited August 2017

    RoyalBlue said:



    Most constructive and balanced major power in world affairs? How can you possibly reconcile that with them propping up the most heinous regime in the world today, as well as their unilateral territory grabs in the South China Sea?

    I think that dealing with North Korea is genuinely tricky, even for China - if the Korean regime were in, say, Ireland, with nukes and missiles and a potential flood of refugees if the economy collapsed, we'd be juggling pressure and tactical assistance too
    As for the South China Sea, it's not obvious that any of the border claims are really copper-bottomed, and it's not really unusual big power behaviour that they're trying to elbow their way into the best position.

    Compared with Trump and Putin, they do seem to me the most level-headed. Which of the three do you feel most confident about causing least global unrest?
    Xiajing
    Tibet
    Spratleys
    Senkaku
    Taiwan
    Aksai Chin
    Arunachal Pradesh

    Notice a pattern? I don't see any other "big powers" (except possibly Russia) engaged in territorial aggrandizement in the way China is.
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Charles said:

    Allan said:

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    To be paid when? If at death that would create a mess with IHT. Currently CGT is excluded at death.
    It would also act as a disincentive on the elderly to downsize, something which helps the property market.
    When it is no longer reinvested in a PPR (i.e. on death or downsizing)
    It wouldn't act as a disincentive to downsizing - the liability would exist in any event, so people should be indifferent from that perspective as to whether they downsize or whether they remain invested until death.
    From an IHT perspective, CGT would be a liability on the estate and therefore would reduce the taxable amount prior to the IHT calculation being made.
    Fundamentally, there is an incentive to over invest in property rather than productive assets and this needs to be addressed.
    Charles, thanks for that full explanation.
    It is not a policy i would advocate. Fixing the housing problem needs more housing supply and less demand (low immigration).
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dura_Ace said:

    The danger for Rudd is the Home Office's line on encryption risks making her look a fool.

    Encryption is a fourth tier issue. Less than 1% of the population understand it and less than 0.5% care about it.

    Encryption? Rudd versus every tech company on the planet, all the banks, not to mention main leadership rival David Davis. Even Guido would be all over it.
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Dura_Ace said:

    The danger for Rudd is the Home Office's line on encryption risks making her look a fool.

    Encryption is a fourth tier issue. Less than 1% of the population understand it and less than 0.5% care about it.

    Encryption? Rudd versus every tech company on the planet, all the banks, not to mention main leadership rival David Davis. Even Guido would be all over it.
    Rudd does seem to lack the ability to challenge nonsense that her civil servants feed her. Similar to Hammond in that respect. Must make them great ministers to have in place in the eyes of sir humphreys.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Dura_Ace said:

    The danger for Rudd is the Home Office's line on encryption risks making her look a fool.

    Encryption is a fourth tier issue. Less than 1% of the population understand it and less than 0.5% care about it.

    Encryption? Rudd versus every tech company on the planet, all the banks, not to mention main leadership rival David Davis. Even Guido would be all over it.
    It's quite incredible. They're trying to make maths illegal.
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Charles said:

    RoyalBlue said:



    Most constructive and balanced major power in world affairs? How can you possibly reconcile that with them propping up the most heinous regime in the world today, as well as their unilateral territory grabs in the South China Sea?

    I think that dealing with North Korea is genuinely tricky, even for China - if the Korean regime were in, say, Ireland, with nukes and missiles and a potential flood of refugees if the economy collapsed, we'd be juggling pressure and tactical assistance too
    As for the South China Sea, it's not obvious that any of the border claims are really copper-bottomed, and it's not really unusual big power behaviour that they're trying to elbow their way into the best position.
    Compared with Trump and Putin, they do seem to me the most level-headed. Which of the three do you feel most confident about causing least global unrest?
    Xiajing
    Tibet
    Spratleys
    Senkaku
    Taiwan
    Aksai Chin
    Arunachal Pradesh
    Notice a pattern? I don't see any other "big powers" (except possibly Russia) engaged in territorial aggrandizement in the way China is.
    Very true and as they edge closer to USA in economic power so the world becomes a more dangerous place. I can though hope that the debt wall that Japan hit, is replicated for China which stops their expansion.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Allan said:

    Charles said:

    Allan said:

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    To be paid when? If at death that would create a mess with IHT. Currently CGT is excluded at death.
    It would also act as a disincentive on the elderly to downsize, something which helps the property market.
    When it is no longer reinvested in a PPR (i.e. on death or downsizing)
    It wouldn't act as a disincentive to downsizing - the liability would exist in any event, so people should be indifferent from that perspective as to whether they downsize or whether they remain invested until death.
    From an IHT perspective, CGT would be a liability on the estate and therefore would reduce the taxable amount prior to the IHT calculation being made.
    Fundamentally, there is an incentive to over invest in property rather than productive assets and this needs to be addressed.
    Charles, thanks for that full explanation.
    It is not a policy i would advocate. Fixing the housing problem needs more housing supply and less demand (low immigration).
    This isn't about fixing the housing problem - I agree that needs more supply and less demand (principally this is caused by the increase in smaller family units via divorce, later partnering, etc) rather than by immigration.

    It's about fixing distortions in the allocation of capital because of the favourable tax treatment of one asset class.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    RoyalBlue said:



    Most constructive and balanced major power in world affairs? How can you possibly reconcile that with them propping up the most heinous regime in the world today, as well as their unilateral territory grabs in the South China Sea?

    I think that dealing with North Korea is genuinely tricky, even for China - if the Korean regime were in, say, Ireland, with nukes and missiles and a potential flood of refugees if the economy collapsed, we'd be juggling pressure and tactical assistance too.

    As for the South China Sea, it's not obvious that any of the border claims are really copper-bottomed, and it's not really unusual big power behaviour that they're trying to elbow their way into the best position.

    Compared with Trump and Putin, they do seem to me the most level-headed. Which of the three do you feel most confident about causing least global unrest?
    Trump, because the US political system constrains him.

    China has territorial claims against most neighbouring powers, who have good reason, historically, to fear China. I'd accept that the Chinese leaders seem to level-headed, and maybe will never try to enforce these claims. But, things can also get out of control.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Step forward Denis McShane.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Ok, now we can all agree that Jennings' test career is over. And here comes Malan. That first innings lead is pretty important and this batting line up really won't do.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    I was involved in the drafting of this article, focusing on the Brexit negotiations rather than on a new party, but developing some of the same points in more detail:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/peter-stevenson/chlorinated-chicken_b_17641650.html
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    DavidL said:

    Ok, now we can all agree that Jennings' test career is over. And here comes Malan. That first innings lead is pretty important and this batting line up really won't do.

    I think that's obvious - his replacement less so.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,677
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    BREMAIN and Prison Reform.....
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    We could merge the Macron and Trump phenomena with Lord Sugar leading a populist centrist movement complete with slogans like 'Lock them up' aimed at the lying Brexiteers.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    Sadiq Khan is the obvious candidate. He has an independent power base, has already developed cross-party support and has no particular likelihood of prospering further in a Corbynite Labour party. But he appears stil to be working on his chances within Labour.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    Sadiq Khan is the obvious candidate. He has an independent power base, has already developed cross-party support and has no particular likelihood of prospering further in a Corbynite Labour party. But he appears stil to be working on his chances within Labour.
    Not exactly Roy Jenkins is he? And the challenge for such a party would be to appeal beyond London. I am not sure he has that kind of reach. But it would be a start.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    But just maybe her majority? She has enough awkward squads without creating new ones.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Talking of pygmies compared to giants, for the next Test can we please have Stoneman opening, Moeen or Bairstow at 5 and the other at 7, and Adil Rashid at 8?

    This is just painful although hopefully it doesn't matter with the lead over 200.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    But just maybe her majority? She has enough awkward squads without creating new ones.
    She can sink slowly and inevitably or she can boldly seek to regain initiative. It's not in her nature but she should take the risky route.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    Former Rothschild's banker? Step forward Ollie Letwin...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    ydoethur said:

    Talking of pygmies compared to giants, for the next Test can we please have Stoneman opening, Moeen or Bairstow at 5 and the other at 7, and Adil Rashid at 8?

    This is just painful although hopefully it doesn't matter with the lead over 200.

    When Joe Root has a strike rate in the 30s you know it is really not easy out there. But England have too many batsmen who don't seem to have any kind of plan.

    I think they need another 100 and they should get that. SA can bowl but they struggle with the bat.

    Oh lord here comes Morkel.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Talking of pygmies compared to giants, for the next Test can we please have Stoneman opening, Moeen or Bairstow at 5 and the other at 7, and Adil Rashid at 8?

    This is just painful although hopefully it doesn't matter with the lead over 200.

    When Joe Root has a strike rate in the 30s you know it is really not easy out there. But England have too many batsmen who don't seem to have any kind of plan.

    I think they need another 100 and they should get that. SA can bowl but they struggle with the bat.

    Oh lord here comes Morkel.
    I don't mind them failing when it's tough. That's allowed. The problem is that Malan and Jennings haven't scored runs anywhere at any time. They are holding places that could be filled by Moeen (averages 48 at 5 in the last year) and Stoneman (761 at 58 this year in first class cricket).

    Playing them against the Windies would be silly. It would be the equivalent if Theresa May leading the Conservatives into the next election.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    But just maybe her majority? She has enough awkward squads without creating new ones.
    She can sink slowly and inevitably or she can boldly seek to regain initiative. It's not in her nature but she should take the risky route.
    She is far too weak and doesn't have enough natural supporters who will back her. She can survive as a compromise but only if she doesn't rock the boat.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Talking of pygmies compared to giants, for the next Test can we please have Stoneman opening, Moeen or Bairstow at 5 and the other at 7, and Adil Rashid at 8?

    This is just painful although hopefully it doesn't matter with the lead over 200.

    When Joe Root has a strike rate in the 30s you know it is really not easy out there. But England have too many batsmen who don't seem to have any kind of plan.

    I think they need another 100 and they should get that. SA can bowl but they struggle with the bat.

    Oh lord here comes Morkel.
    I don't mind them failing when it's tough. That's allowed. The problem is that Malan and Jennings haven't scored runs anywhere at any time. They are holding places that could be filled by Moeen (averages 48 at 5 in the last year) and Stoneman (761 at 58 this year in first class cricket).

    Playing them against the Windies would be silly. It would be the equivalent if Theresa May leading the Conservatives into the next election.
    Well maybe not quite as silly as that. But yes.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    That's very similar to the US system, I think.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    But just maybe her majority? She has enough awkward squads without creating new ones.
    She can sink slowly and inevitably or she can boldly seek to regain initiative. It's not in her nature but she should take the risky route.
    She is far too weak and doesn't have enough natural supporters who will back her. She can survive as a compromise but only if she doesn't rock the boat.
    She has one source of strength: her dangers are rivals of each other. If they're too weak to move against her now, they'll be no stronger if she hacks at their power bases. So long as their calculation is that the status quo is better than a challenge, they won't move. And promoted newbies are going to be happy and loyal.

    Will it work? Maybe not. But no change = no chance for Mrs May. Time to roll the dice.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    Are his missiles accurate enough to land "just off the coast"?

    That would be one hell of a risky play.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    Are his missiles accurate enough to land "just off the coast"?

    That would be one hell of a risky play.
    And who would believe that he didn't just miss? Either way there would be a massive reaction.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    I think he would find that he couldn't get away with that.
    What would happen?
    I'm guessing a strike on all known missile sites?
    Wouldn't that be illegal?
    The NorKs would be free to sue afterwards.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited August 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
  • Options
    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548



    Sadiq Khan is the obvious candidate. He has an independent power base, has already developed cross-party support and has no particular likelihood of prospering further in a Corbynite Labour party. But he appears stil to be working on his chances within Labour.

    Two Tins Khan is the remainers' big hope? You really are desperate..
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Surely Logan's Run had a more efficient solution?
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Surely Logan's Run had a more efficient solution?
    That's a film reference, right?!
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    The Brexit Jihadists on the Tory benches are going to ensure JCICWBPM. And sooner rather than later at this rate.

    Hold on to your hats folks, it's going to be a wild ride and I suspect, the emergence of a new centrist and pragmatist party.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Pong said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Surely Logan's Run had a more efficient solution?
    That's a film reference, right?!
    Well a novel really but they did make rather a good film out of it.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Surely Logan's Run had a more efficient solution?
    It did until Logan the Brexiteer stood up to the murdering socialist consensus,
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the Conservatives need a leader who isn't going to want to make a good chunk of their potential voters put their foot through the TV screen. Leavers' obsession means that Amber Rudd fails this test.

    Theresa May should be considering a big clear-out to make way for some fresh blood. Too many of the current batch are too shop-soiled. And it's not as if she'd be losing incredible quality.

    But just maybe her majority? She has enough awkward squads without creating new ones.
    She can sink slowly and inevitably or she can boldly seek to regain initiative. It's not in her nature but she should take the risky route.
    She is far too weak and doesn't have enough natural supporters who will back her. She can survive as a compromise but only if she doesn't rock the boat.
    She has one source of strength: her dangers are rivals of each other. If they're too weak to move against her now, they'll be no stronger if she hacks at their power bases. So long as their calculation is that the status quo is better than a challenge, they won't move. And promoted newbies are going to be happy and loyal.

    Will it work? Maybe not. But no change = no chance for Mrs May. Time to roll the dice.
    Being in number 10 gives her lots of options to instigate some political theatre when she gets back from holiday. Something she has form for.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    ydoethur said:

    Talking of pygmies compared to giants, for the next Test can we please have Stoneman opening, Moeen or Bairstow at 5 and the other at 7, and Adil Rashid at 8?

    This is just painful although hopefully it doesn't matter with the lead over 200.

    You are a person of uncommon common sense.

    The simplest solution would be to move Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen one place up the order (their current hierarchy seems to work quite well), and then we just need to find a two and a three.
    Stoneman is probably worth a shot, though it's worth pointing out his 1st class average isn't exceptional, and it's not as though one or two promising top order batsmen haven't failed at test level recently.

    Shame Hameed still can't buy a run this season... though he'll be back eventually.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Somewhat encouraging that the Chinese voted for sanctions on North Korea and then engaged in direct talks with them - surprisingly, China is the most constructive and balanced major power in foreign affairs these days, and I don't say that with any illusions about their political virtue.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/05/un-north-korea-sanctions-nikki-haley

    Apparently the Tories thought closely about taxing gains on house sales, and might do so again:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/05/tax-wealth-or-lose-election-will-tanner-theresa-may-aide-warns-tories

    - that would certainly appeal to some on the centre-left, including me, though how many votes it would swing I'm less sure.

    I think it would swing lots of votes.

    But, not in favour of the Conservatives.
    If you had rollover relief for a principal private residence (i.e. any capital gain that is invested in a new PPR has tax deferred) it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    That's very similar to the US system, I think.
    Basically the same. The US have got property tax pretty much right, much as I hate writing a 5 figure cheque each year.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    The Age on Australia's inevitable march towards becoming a republic, helped along by some condescension from Boris.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-queens-interests-are-not-ours-three-reasons-why-the-republic-will-get-up-one-day-20170803-gxos68.html

    ...all of his references were at least 30 years old. The image he mirrored back at his Australian audience was of the nation slumped in a cultural cringe, decades out of date. It was embarrassing, but more so for him than us. Johnson also conducted a verbal hypothetical, exploring what would have happened if Australia had joined the European Union.

    It was a logically distorted attempt to reverse-engineer a political excuse for Brexit, made to the wrong audience.

    Johnson's central message was deeply patronising: Australia had never joined the European common market and yet, even you people, Swiftian barbarians that you are, have managed to flourish economically. How humiliating that Britain was now seeking to do independently (of the EU) what Australia had accomplished years ago, all by its itty self.

    It was bizarre, and made me wonder why we still revere and tolerate such post-colonial condescension.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    Cunning of him.

    I like this suggestion courtesy of cricinfo:

    "If Ian Bell does make a successful comeback, perhaps he should be immortalised with his own End?..."

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    I really can't see SA get 250+ on this wicket. Its a minefield.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,949
    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
    Stop spending it like a drunken sailor.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    GeoffM said:

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
    Stop spending it like a drunken sailor.
    Well few organisations can't save a bit of cash if they look carefully, but equally you can't run a government on scotch mist. Somebody somewhere has to put their hands in their pockets if we want a functioning state.

  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
    Stop spending it like a drunken sailor.
    Well few organisations can't save a bit of cash if they look carefully, but equally you can't run a government on scotch mist. Somebody somewhere has to put their hands in their pockets if we want a functioning state.

    It depends on your definition of "functioning".

    Right now I see a bloated state.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    Sadiq Khan is the obvious candidate. He has an independent power base, has already developed cross-party support and has no particular likelihood of prospering further in a Corbynite Labour party. But he appears stil to be working on his chances within Labour.
    Not exactly Roy Jenkins is he? And the challenge for such a party would be to appeal beyond London. I am not sure he has that kind of reach. But it would be a start.
    How about a new party led by Alistair Campbell and Anna Soubry?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    He's clearly learning...
    Nigelb said:

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    Cunning of him.

    I like this suggestion courtesy of cricinfo:

    "If Ian Bell does make a successful comeback, perhaps he should be immortalised with his own End?..."

    He never was popular. Something to do with not converting 50s into 100s :lol:
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    Are his missiles accurate enough to land "just off the coast"?

    That would be one hell of a risky play.
    And who would believe that he didn't just miss? Either way there would be a massive reaction.
    There was an interesting article in the Economist, about how a nuclear conflict with North Korea could develop.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Sean_F said:

    How about a new party led by Alistair Campbell and Anna Soubry?

    It would do well in... ooohhhh... about half a dozen constituencies.

    Most of whom have LibDem MPs.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
    Stop spending it like a drunken sailor.
    Well few organisations can't save a bit of cash if they look carefully, but equally you can't run a government on scotch mist. Somebody somewhere has to put their hands in their pockets if we want a functioning state.

    It depends on your definition of "functioning".

    Right now I see a bloated state.
    Well we are in the middle of the range for expenditure compared to similar countries.

    https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Agreed. Though it is not utterly impossible to imagine a situation where a centre coalition might achieve Macron levels of electoral success.
    But who play's Macron?
    I didnt say it would be easy to imagine....
    When the best suggestion so far is Denis McShane......
    Sadiq Khan is the obvious candidate. He has an independent power base, has already developed cross-party support and has no particular likelihood of prospering further in a Corbynite Labour party. But he appears stil to be working on his chances within Labour.
    Not exactly Roy Jenkins is he? And the challenge for such a party would be to appeal beyond London. I am not sure he has that kind of reach. But it would be a start.
    How about a new party led by Alistair Campbell and Anna Soubry?
    Bad cop, worse cop.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. L, will it be called the Euro Whine Party?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:


    That doesn't seem likely at present and the risk the next escalation will be one too many is a large one (I'm reminded of what happened 103 years ago this weekend (roughly) after one crisis or provocation too many).

    World Service this morning had a slightly unnerving comment that Kim doesn't want to return to the negotiating table until he had proved that he can deliver a nuclear payload to the American mainland...
    I could see him lobbing a missile close to the US coast, just to see what he could get away with.
    Are his missiles accurate enough to land "just off the coast"?

    That would be one hell of a risky play.
    And who would believe that he didn't just miss? Either way there would be a massive reaction.
    There was an interesting article in the Economist, about how a nuclear conflict with North Korea could develop.
    Not entirely to the advantage of ordinary Koreans?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    He's clearly learning...
    Nigelb said:

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    Cunning of him.

    I like this suggestion courtesy of cricinfo:

    "If Ian Bell does make a successful comeback, perhaps he should be immortalised with his own End?..."

    He never was popular. Something to do with not converting 50s into 100s :lol:
    I thought after your own innuendo bingo effort this morning, you'd enjoy that ..?

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    edited August 2017

    Mr. L, will it be called the Euro Whine Party?

    Campbell's Super (Souber?) Party
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Glenn, the Tired and Eurotional Party?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    On the other hand, that has to be paid for by taxation for those already with wealth in terms of CGT to be introduced on all sales above a certain value so it's less about taxing income or even consumption but taxing asset wealth.

    We have a problem in that there are already lots of disincentives for older people to "trade down", which discourages the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    This would worsen the problem.
    Blackmail might work.

    Padlock the triple lock;

    For those with assets greater than X, in order to draw your state/private pension you have to buy/build/fund one additional housing unit, until the backlog of houses-we-didn't-build-over-the-last-40-years get built. Maybe set a target of 500k/year or something.

    Nimbyism would evaporate.
    Theft.
    Its the real magic money tree: People with assets.
    Well if the people with incomes are already being squeezed, where else is the money to come from?
    Stop spending it like a drunken sailor.
    Well few organisations can't save a bit of cash if they look carefully, but equally you can't run a government on scotch mist. Somebody somewhere has to put their hands in their pockets if we want a functioning state.

    It depends on your definition of "functioning".

    Right now I see a bloated state.
    Well we are in the middle of the range for expenditure compared to similar countries.

    https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm

    Not clear as to your point.

    Why compare? Why not just strive for smaller and better?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2017
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    He's clearly learning...
    Nigelb said:

    @ydoethur - At least Root didn't fail to convert a 50 to a 100 this time, eh?

    Cunning of him.

    I like this suggestion courtesy of cricinfo:

    "If Ian Bell does make a successful comeback, perhaps he should be immortalised with his own End?..."

    He never was popular. Something to do with not converting 50s into 100s :lol:
    I thought after your own innuendo bingo effort this morning, you'd enjoy that ..?

    I did. Sorry if my response was too obscure!

    What we really need though is a Pietersen end at Nottingham or Southampton, so a parochial announcer can declare the bowler is coming from the Bellend's End...

    Edit - and if anyone wants to see a really shocking conversion rate, Northants have had six batsman get to 25, 3 to 50, Not one has gone past 70. So somehow Gloucestershire are still in the match.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    GeoffM said:


    Not clear as to your point.

    Why compare? Why not just strive for smaller and better?

    You're the one throwing terms like "bloated" around. Perhaps you can explain where this bloat is and what you would do with any savings achieved.
  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a very perceptive article on the divide between the Brexit elite and regular Leave voters. It's by Stephen Bush, one of the best centre left writers out there.
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/05/new-political-party-leave-voters-right

    Hmm.... When I joined the SDP I came from the Tory wets and so did many others. People who recognised that monetary policies that were essential to control inflation had to be combined with social policies that protected the vulnerable rather than tax cuts.

    It didn't work of course and it casts a shadow over UK politics even now. Those who still favour remain have no major party that espouses their position. If they are to take the field they need to bring together both the Labour right and the successors of those Tory wets damaging both parties.

    It is not too hard to imagine Ed Balls and George Osborne in the same party, it is frankly easier than the bedfellows in the current coalitions, but they have both stepped out and are both party men to the core. Who would lead such a new grouping and who would follow? I struggle to see the equivalents of Roy Jenkins (a true giant and brilliant Home Secretary), David Owen and Shirley Williams. The two I have named apart, I frankly struggle to see the equivalent of Bill Rogers.

    Alastair Meeks apparently spoiled his ballot paper. I can see remainers doing that in frustration for some time yet.
    Step forward Denis McShane.
    Nah, Chris Huhne.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    stodge said:

    GeoffM said:


    Not clear as to your point.

    Why compare? Why not just strive for smaller and better?

    You're the one throwing terms like "bloated" around. Perhaps you can explain where this bloat is and what you would do with any savings achieved.
    Recidivist just provided a link showing that half of the countries on that list fund themselves perfectly well with less tax take than us. So there's your bloat.

    And why would I "do" anything with it? I'd lower the level of state theft via 'taxation' and leave people with their own money.
  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited August 2017
    Good luck with paying the EU £36 billion and up beyond our membership obligations to the EU. There was a documentary about the London fire brigade where a woman was trapped in a car after a road accident. They had to wait three hours for ambulance workers before they could cut her out.

    No money for the ambulance service, but willing to give it away so their chums can continue lining their pockets. I would like to see them try to sell that.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    This is really great - Boycott falling fir huge wind-up

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w5Wj0olGcA
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    The Age on Australia's inevitable march towards becoming a republic, helped along by some condescension from Boris.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-queens-interests-are-not-ours-three-reasons-why-the-republic-will-get-up-one-day-20170803-gxos68.html

    ...all of his references were at least 30 years old. The image he mirrored back at his Australian audience was of the nation slumped in a cultural cringe, decades out of date. It was embarrassing, but more so for him than us. Johnson also conducted a verbal hypothetical, exploring what would have happened if Australia had joined the European Union.

    It was a logically distorted attempt to reverse-engineer a political excuse for Brexit, made to the wrong audience.

    Johnson's central message was deeply patronising: Australia had never joined the European common market and yet, even you people, Swiftian barbarians that you are, have managed to flourish economically. How humiliating that Britain was now seeking to do independently (of the EU) what Australia had accomplished years ago, all by its itty self.

    It was bizarre, and made me wonder why we still revere and tolerate such post-colonial condescension.

    I think the number of Australians with a chip on their shoulder so large they are still whining about a political crisis 42 years ago is significantly less than a majority. There is no popular enthusiasm for a republic, mainly because there is no consensus whatsoever about other changes that would need to be made to Australia's system of government as a consequence.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    RoyalBlue said:

    The Age on Australia's inevitable march towards becoming a republic, helped along by some condescension from Boris.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-queens-interests-are-not-ours-three-reasons-why-the-republic-will-get-up-one-day-20170803-gxos68.html

    ...all of his references were at least 30 years old. The image he mirrored back at his Australian audience was of the nation slumped in a cultural cringe, decades out of date. It was embarrassing, but more so for him than us. Johnson also conducted a verbal hypothetical, exploring what would have happened if Australia had joined the European Union.

    It was a logically distorted attempt to reverse-engineer a political excuse for Brexit, made to the wrong audience.

    Johnson's central message was deeply patronising: Australia had never joined the European common market and yet, even you people, Swiftian barbarians that you are, have managed to flourish economically. How humiliating that Britain was now seeking to do independently (of the EU) what Australia had accomplished years ago, all by its itty self.

    It was bizarre, and made me wonder why we still revere and tolerate such post-colonial condescension.

    I think the number of Australians with a chip on their shoulder so large they are still whining about a political crisis 42 years ago is significantly less than a majority. There is no popular enthusiasm for a republic, mainly because there is no consensus whatsoever about other changes that would need to be made to Australia's system of government as a consequence.
    You could have said the same about the number of Brits whining about Ted Heath's precise phraseology 44 years ago and the fact that there was no consensus whatsoever about other changes that would need to be made to our system of government as a consequence of leaving the EU... Still we are where we are.
This discussion has been closed.