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  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Ishmael_Z said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    GeoffM said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, the producers of Dr. Who are just flogging a dead horse by now.

    I wonder what this means for the next James Bond.

    I don't know, now, whether leads are cast for genuine artistic merit or in order to make a point about feminism. And I expect it's almost impossible to publicly question such a decision without being accused of sexism and misogyny, which worries me even more.

    (FWIW - I think Doctor Who, an alien and a time Lord who can take any form, does give licence for any actor or actress to play the character.)
    What is the official story behind the changing of James Bond's actor and the progressing of the years? Is '007' a licence granted to one agent after another, all trained up from an orphanage? (*) Or is it all meant to be the same agent and left deliberately woolly and unexplained?

    (*) Thought that wouldn't explain wen later films refer back to events in earlier films involving different actors.
    It's the same person. George Lazenby planted the seeds of doubt in OHMSS when he said "This never happened to the other guy". But Tracy (Bond's wife in OHMSS) is referenced in four films by two different actors. And For Your Eyes Only opens at her grave.

    But Skyfall clears it up for certain. You see the graves of the Bond parents and the backstory for those graves is given in M's eulogy in You Only Live Twice.

    The fan-base have tried to move towards a 'code-name' solution for the whole thing but the truth is all cleared up in Skyfall. We aren't going to see two Bonds on the same screen "It wasn't like this in my day".

    One Bond.
    Thanks. I feel that's a little disappointing.
    Surely the continuity of the name is a giveaway? Unless MI5 is like a family I knew as a child which always had one specimen of the same breed of dog, always replaced on death, and always having the same name - Fido or whatever. Creepy.
    Why's that creepy? It seems entirely rational to me, and emphasises that the dog must fit in with the family, and not the other way around.
    How do you reminisce about previous holders of the post? Perhaps they numbered them, like kings, Fido I, II, III etc.
    It was very simple.


    When I was very young my grandmother always had a cat and it was called Sandy.
    She lived near a busy road.
    Every now and then, the markings on Sandy changed slightly.
    Utterly independently - another small wooden cross appeared on the rockery.
    Sandy was always Sandy.

    It took me a while to work it out; I'll be honest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971
    Ishmael_Z said:



    Tradition is everything. The character M is based on 'C', Mansfield Smith-Cumming, the first director of the SIS. Staff called him 'C'. A hundred years later, the head of SIS is still known as, and signs documents as, 'C'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Secret_Intelligence_Service
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_Smith-Cumming

    I always considered that 'James Bond' was both a pseudonym to protect people the gent knew before they joined, and a codename people 'in the know' would recognise.

    There was a story about Roger Moore, widely recounted when he died, of a small boy recognising him as James Bond at an airport and RM telling the boy he was travelling under an assumed name and begging him not to blow his cover.
    Moore was a mensch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971
    Ishmael_Z said:



    Tradition is everything. The character M is based on 'C', Mansfield Smith-Cumming, the first director of the SIS. Staff called him 'C'. A hundred years later, the head of SIS is still known as, and signs documents as, 'C'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Secret_Intelligence_Service
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_Smith-Cumming

    I always considered that 'James Bond' was both a pseudonym to protect people the gent knew before they joined, and a codename people 'in the know' would recognise.

    There was a story about Roger Moore, widely recounted when he died, of a small boy recognising him as James Bond at an airport and RM telling the boy he was travelling under an assumed name and begging him not to blow his cover.
    And there was a rather lovely coda to that story:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/man-shares-heartwarming-childhood-memory-roger-moore/
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Evening PB,

    It seems the Cabinet are at it like ferrets in a sack...

    Bring on Jezza?????? :open_mouth:
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    twitter.com/bbchelenalee/status/886688816815276034

    Cheers for that photo. She scrubs up reasonably.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    Skyfall was, by and large, dirge.

    One of the greatest Bond films ever made.

    The whole Radiohead thing makes sense now
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    GIN1138 said:

    Evening PB,

    It seems the Cabinet are at it like ferrets in a sack...

    Bring on Jezza?????? :open_mouth:

    Yes, I think Labour should be making more of this - someone should be saying every day, "How can we have a decent result with the Cabinet at war with itself? Time for stable Labour government!"
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    At this point, the UK would be better off under a United Labour Govt
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    619 said:

    At this point, the UK would be better off under a United Labour Govt

    Labour united? Hahahhahahahah

    They are even more divided, it's just that for the moment they are putting up a united front. The leadership want hard brexit with long bailey saying today "the vote was for taking control of our borders and laws" and "we want our cake and eat it". Meanwhile most Labour MP's barely want to LEAVE at all.

    Labour are facing both ways on Brexit and are getting away with it for now.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    nunuone said:

    619 said:

    At this point, the UK would be better off under a United Labour Govt

    Labour united? Hahahhahahahah

    They are even more divided, it's just that for the moment they are putting up a united front. The leadership want hard brexit with long bailey saying today "the vote was for taking control of our borders and laws" and "we want our cake and eat it". Meanwhile most Labour MP's barely want to LEAVE at all.

    Labour are facing both ways on Brexit and are getting away with it for now.
    The vagueness of policy is undeniable, but we had our season of personal venom last year, and there's nothing now remotely comparable to the open war in the Cabinet. If you were Barnier, would you feel confident that you were talking to a representative Minister who could deliver any agreement you made with him?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892
    nunuone said:

    619 said:

    At this point, the UK would be better off under a United Labour Govt

    Labour united? Hahahhahahahah

    They are even more divided, it's just that for the moment they are putting up a united front. The leadership want hard brexit with long bailey saying today "the vote was for taking control of our borders and laws" and "we want our cake and eat it". Meanwhile most Labour MP's barely want to LEAVE at all.

    Labour are facing both ways on Brexit and are getting away with it for now.
    The problem is that it's a lot easier to be in opposition than government right now.

    Loss aversion is a powerful dynamic. And winners will never thank you as much as losers blame you. (See the poll tax, for example.) This means that even if Brexit is short term economically positive (and given Dr Fox's failings, I'm increasingly sceptical of that), the government will like still end up more unpopular at the end of Brexit than the start.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892

    nunuone said:

    619 said:

    At this point, the UK would be better off under a United Labour Govt

    Labour united? Hahahhahahahah

    They are even more divided, it's just that for the moment they are putting up a united front. The leadership want hard brexit with long bailey saying today "the vote was for taking control of our borders and laws" and "we want our cake and eat it". Meanwhile most Labour MP's barely want to LEAVE at all.

    Labour are facing both ways on Brexit and are getting away with it for now.
    The vagueness of policy is undeniable, but we had our season of personal venom last year, and there's nothing now remotely comparable to the open war in the Cabinet. If you were Barnier, would you feel confident that you were talking to a representative Minister who could deliver any agreement you made with him?
    I continue to think that a 2019 election is very likely. If the government cannot pass its Brexit bill, it will surely fall. And - even if the Labour Party agreed with every clause of the Bill - it would still vote against it.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited July 2017
    kyf_100 said:

    Vaguely relevant question out of personal interest:

    Has anyone on PB actually changed ther opinion on Brexit in a year of arguing about it?

    I've always been a soft leaver type and had Cameron's negotiation been a little better I could have seen myself voting to stay in. Since then, I've occasionally had days where I've woken up going "uh-oh, what have I done?" but by the end of the day steadied myself by remembering none of the fundamentals have changed - all the stuff that made me anti-EU, the erosion of sovereignty, the democratic deficit, the economic and social problems caused by free movement - are still there and will only get worse with ever closer union. So despite a year of debate my views remain pretty much unchanged. The only thing that has changed is my belief in the government's ability to negotiate an acceptable settlement - but that wasn't knowable in June last year.

    So has anyone's opinion actually changed?

    Genuinely interested, because I can see us ending up in second referendum territory before 2019. And we've effectively been campaigning on PB for over a year now. Feels to me like the more a political issue is discussed, the more entrenched people's views become.

    I voted Remain last time, but if there is another Referendum I would vote leave to send the EU a strong message.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849

    Mrs C, Cameron wishes he were Aurelian.

    Mr. Viewcode, has there ever been only a male companion in New Who? Could be wrong, but I believe the model has been a male Doctor, female companion, and occasionally another companion who might be male.

    On gender: does this ever jump the other way? What would people think about a male Ripley in a new Alien(s) film?

    [I only think demographics matter if they're integral to the character. As a womaniser, I'd say Bond's male. Similarly, Othello should be black, etc etc].

    A female (or trans) Bond would an excellent way to reboot a very, very tired franchise.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892
    fitalass said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Vaguely relevant question out of personal interest:

    Has anyone on PB actually changed ther opinion on Brexit in a year of arguing about it?

    I've always been a soft leaver type and had Cameron's negotiation been a little better I could have seen myself voting to stay in. Since then, I've occasionally had days where I've woken up going "uh-oh, what have I done?" but by the end of the day steadied myself by remembering none of the fundamentals have changed - all the stuff that made me anti-EU, the erosion of sovereignty, the democratic deficit, the economic and social problems caused by free movement - are still there and will only get worse with ever closer union. So despite a year of debate my views remain pretty much unchanged. The only thing that has changed is my belief in the government's ability to negotiate an acceptable settlement - but that wasn't knowable in June last year.

    So has anyone's opinion actually changed?

    Genuinely interested, because I can see us ending up in second referendum territory before 2019. And we've effectively been campaigning on PB for over a year now. Feels to me like the more a political issue is discussed, the more entrenched people's views become.

    I voted Remain last time, but if there is another Referendum I would vote leave to send the EU a strong message.
    I was a vocal Leaver on here before the referendum, albeit without the visceral hatred of the EU that so many have. My argument, simply, was that we are a poor fit for the EU, in terms of our institutions and legal system, and that there has never been widespread buy in for political union. We were members because we thought it benefited us economically, not because we wanted to be citizens of a country called "The European Union".

    I do worry that we are going about Brexit badly. From day one, I felt the right tone - as when breaking up with a partner - was "it's not me, it's you". I've also felt that Brexit is best thought of as a process, perhaps even a decade long process, not something that can be achieved well in two years. (Unless you are going for an off the shelf solution like EFTA/EEA.) Finally, I think that everyone - including the government - is excessively focused on EU-UK relations, and has missed the fact that we lose the agreements that the EU has forged with dozens of countries on exit.

    Crashing out to WTO does not just mean crashing out to WTO with the EU; it means it with the US, Canada, Mexico, South Korea, Israel, Switzerland, and a host of other countries.

    I would still vote for Brexit. But I fear that the economic upheaval caused by a disorderly exit from the EU could destroy the Conservative's reputation for economic competence and put a man in Number 10 who could do real damage to this country.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    2017 campaign was an outlier, because (unlike any other general election in my lifetime of awareness) it was an unexpected election. All others (i.e. from 1983 onwards) have been at about the time they were long expected, long in advance, at the end of a 4- or 5-year term. This is the first time since 1974 (or perhaps even 1923) that an election has been called in mid-term when nobody was expecting one, i.e. before the opinion polls had had a chance to adjust.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854
    @rcs1000 - If leaving the EU causes political instability within the UK, perhaps you should consider that we were also members for political reasons, partly because having a European perspective was an important factor in anchoring our politics in a constructive and pragmatic direction.

    If the EU is right for France and Germany it is right for us. We were too slow to realise this the first time round and now seem determined to relearn the lesson in the most painful way possible.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    GeoffM said:

    When I was very young my grandmother always had a cat and it was called Sandy.
    She lived near a busy road.
    Every now and then, the markings on Sandy changed slightly.
    Utterly independently - another small wooden cross appeared on the rockery.
    Sandy was always Sandy.

    It took me a while to work it out; I'll be honest.

    My first pet goldfish was called Ooey. I was distraught when he was murdered by next-door's cat when I was 7. My next pet goldfish were called Fred, Fred 2, Fred 3, Fred 4 & Fred 5.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892
    JohnLoony said:

    GeoffM said:

    When I was very young my grandmother always had a cat and it was called Sandy.
    She lived near a busy road.
    Every now and then, the markings on Sandy changed slightly.
    Utterly independently - another small wooden cross appeared on the rockery.
    Sandy was always Sandy.

    It took me a while to work it out; I'll be honest.

    My first pet goldfish was called Ooey. I was distraught when he was murdered by next-door's cat when I was 7. My next pet goldfish were called Fred, Fred 2, Fred 3, Fred 4 & Fred 5.

    You should read this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Fourteenth-Goldfish-Jennifer-L-Holm/0375870644

    It's a terrific book :smile:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892

    @rcs1000 - If leaving the EU causes political instability within the UK, perhaps you should consider that we were also members for political reasons, partly because having a European perspective was an important factor in anchoring our politics in a constructive and pragmatic direction.

    If the EU is right for France and Germany it is right for us. We were too slow to realise this the first time round and now seem determined to relearn the lesson in the most painful way possible.

    William: I like you. I like your pugnacious attitude.

    But is there any question to which your answer is not "it would all be so much better if we stayed in the EU"?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,528
    Nigelb said:

    Ishmael_Z said:



    Tradition is everything. The character M is based on 'C', Mansfield Smith-Cumming, the first director of the SIS. Staff called him 'C'. A hundred years later, the head of SIS is still known as, and signs documents as, 'C'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Secret_Intelligence_Service
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansfield_Smith-Cumming

    I always considered that 'James Bond' was both a pseudonym to protect people the gent knew before they joined, and a codename people 'in the know' would recognise.

    There was a story about Roger Moore, widely recounted when he died, of a small boy recognising him as James Bond at an airport and RM telling the boy he was travelling under an assumed name and begging him not to blow his cover.
    Moore was a mensch.
    And he invented the Magnum. For which, much thanks RIP,
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3727876/how-sir-roger-moore-invented-the-magnum-ice-cream/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854
    rcs1000 said:

    @rcs1000 - If leaving the EU causes political instability within the UK, perhaps you should consider that we were also members for political reasons, partly because having a European perspective was an important factor in anchoring our politics in a constructive and pragmatic direction.

    If the EU is right for France and Germany it is right for us. We were too slow to realise this the first time round and now seem determined to relearn the lesson in the most painful way possible.

    William: I like you. I like your pugnacious attitude.

    But is there any question to which your answer is not "it would all be so much better if we stayed in the EU"?
    Plenty. I didn't chose to make our EU membership the dominant issue in domestic politics. It's all a huge waste of everyone's time.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mrs C, Cameron wishes he were Aurelian.

    Mr. Viewcode, has there ever been only a male companion in New Who? Could be wrong, but I believe the model has been a male Doctor, female companion, and occasionally another companion who might be male.

    On gender: does this ever jump the other way? What would people think about a male Ripley in a new Alien(s) film?

    [I only think demographics matter if they're integral to the character. As a womaniser, I'd say Bond's male. Similarly, Othello should be black, etc etc].

    A female (or trans) Bond would an excellent way to reboot a very, very tired franchise.
    No, it would not. And the success of the Daniel Craig Bond movies would suggest that it is not a very tired franchise.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    rcs1000 said:

    fitalass said:

    kyf_100 said:

    SNIP

    I voted Remain last time, but if there is another Referendum I would vote leave to send the EU a strong message.
    I was a vocal Leaver on here before the referendum, albeit without the visceral hatred of the EU that so many have. My argument, simply, was that we are a poor fit for the EU, in terms of our institutions and legal system, and that there has never been widespread buy in for political union. We were members because we thought it benefited us economically, not because we wanted to be citizens of a country called "The European Union".

    I do worry that we are going about Brexit badly. From day one, I felt the right tone - as when breaking up with a partner - was "it's not me, it's you". I've also felt that Brexit is best thought of as a process, perhaps even a decade long process, not something that can be achieved well in two years. (Unless you are going for an off the shelf solution like EFTA/EEA.) Finally, I think that everyone - including the government - is excessively focused on EU-UK relations, and has missed the fact that we lose the agreements that the EU has forged with dozens of countries on exit.

    Crashing out to WTO does not just mean crashing out to WTO with the EU; it means it with the US, Canada, Mexico, South Korea, Israel, Switzerland, and a host of other countries.

    I would still vote for Brexit. But I fear that the economic upheaval caused by a disorderly exit from the EU could destroy the Conservative's reputation for economic competence and put a man in Number 10 who could do real damage to this country.
    Robert, I would agree with all the points you raised in that post. I was a remainer, but now I want to see a cross party effort totally committed to getting the best deal for UKplc. Sadly, that is not happening and we are entering these Brexit negociations in a weakened position as a result, and the EU team are exploiting gleefully exploiting those UK political divisions. The Government need to get their act together asap so they can deliver Brexit with the minimum of economic disruption or face the wrath of the electorate. But the Opposition parties also have a huge responsibility to contribute and support rather than hinder those Brexit negociations, especially after the last GE result. And the electorate will not take kindly to them playing politics with the UK's economic future, there is a lesson there when you look to the decline of the SNPs fortunes over the last year.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    edited July 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    @rcs1000 - If leaving the EU causes political instability within the UK, perhaps you should consider that we were also members for political reasons, partly because having a European perspective was an important factor in anchoring our politics in a constructive and pragmatic direction.

    If the EU is right for France and Germany it is right for us. We were too slow to realise this the first time round and now seem determined to relearn the lesson in the most painful way possible.

    William: I like you. I like your pugnacious attitude.

    But is there any question to which your answer is not "it would all be so much better if we stayed in the EU"?
    Nevertheless this is simply a mirror of the irrational political obsessiveness that got us into this hopeless mess in the first place.

    I see that some German politicians who met our Brexit officials recently were so appalled at our approach and attitude that they shared their views with some Irish politicians who have now told the press. "“They said [we] were making it up as they went along and were very poorly prepared for Brexit. It was actually farcical, is what they said. They came out of the meeting very bemused and annoyed...They found the British unprepared for Brexit and said they didn't seem to have considered the impact leaving the EU would have on Britain's economy."
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Dura_Ace said:

    Mrs C, Cameron wishes he were Aurelian.

    Mr. Viewcode, has there ever been only a male companion in New Who? Could be wrong, but I believe the model has been a male Doctor, female companion, and occasionally another companion who might be male.

    On gender: does this ever jump the other way? What would people think about a male Ripley in a new Alien(s) film?

    [I only think demographics matter if they're integral to the character. As a womaniser, I'd say Bond's male. Similarly, Othello should be black, etc etc].

    A female (or trans) Bond would an excellent way to reboot a very, very tired franchise.
    I wouldn't trust a secret agent to defend my country if they can't even work out which toilet they should be using.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849
    fitalass said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Mrs C, Cameron wishes he were Aurelian.

    Mr. Viewcode, has there ever been only a male companion in New Who? Could be wrong, but I believe the model has been a male Doctor, female companion, and occasionally another companion who might be male.

    On gender: does this ever jump the other way? What would people think about a male Ripley in a new Alien(s) film?

    [I only think demographics matter if they're integral to the character. As a womaniser, I'd say Bond's male. Similarly, Othello should be black, etc etc].

    A female (or trans) Bond would an excellent way to reboot a very, very tired franchise.
    No, it would not. And the success of the Daniel Craig Bond movies would suggest that it is not a very tired franchise.
    I meant creatively tired which it certainly is.

    Commander Jane Bond played by Phoebe Waller-Bridge and directed by Kathryn Bigelow would be great.
This discussion has been closed.