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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Freggles said:

    Freggles said:

    Can anyone explain why we wouldn't go for EFTA for 5-10 years while we negotiated trade deals, then hard brexit if people are still mad about immigration?

    Because we're the supplicants in this deal.

    We need the support of the EU27.
    Even to join EFTA?
    Sorry my mistake, I meant the EFTA4, they don't want us, we're too big and would upset the balance.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-07/u-k-return-to-efta-might-pose-balance-risk-swiss-minister-says
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    ...


    And I say that on the day I received my renewed membership card
    I don't agree with all your posts Big G but this is an excellent summary.

    Wtf is she thinking with her stance on public sector pay for example?
    I got the impression she decided that if she gave way Labour would get all the credit, and the pressure would simply move along to the next item on the spending list.
    Mmmm, maybe but the optics are just terrible, and it's hardly an issue that's going to fade away; rather, it will just get worse as inflation ticks up and more years of effective pay-cuts are added to the public sector workers.
    My guess is that selective increases will be above 1% when the review bodies report. If they are for popular groups it will be good politics whist holding firm in other areas. Simply abandoning the cap would have looked terrible for a government - it has to be replaced by another justifiable policy.
    I think they could make a case for abandoning that ran something like: post-2008, private sector incomes reflected the economic situation (i.e. fell in real-terms) whereas public sector incomes increased in real-terms. The recent cap has corrected that situation, so relative public vs. private sector incomes are back in balance... ergo now is the right time to ease the cap.

    (And to pay for it we're going to freeze income tax allowances, or find some other tax to increase, because we still want to see the defecit removed and public debt start to come down.)
    The reality of it is the increased tax allowance has raised take home pay without raising pay above 1%.

    It really isn't rocket science.
    Not sure I get your drift Mortimer old pal...

    The 1% pay cap saves the government money (constrains spending if you like). Raising the tax allowances loses the government revenue, whereas freezing allowances would increase revenue (in times of inflation). So freezing allowances could help pay for breaking the 1% pay cap. I haven't done the sums, so I don't know if it would be enough but it would certainly help.

    Worth remembering too, that public sector pay increases at the rate of inflation should be affordable without increasing spending in real terms.
    I'm not talking about revenue, I'm talking about wages. Those who work in the public sector might have had a 1% pay cap, but have been taking home far more of it because of the increasing allowance.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Freggles said:

    Can anyone explain why we wouldn't go for EFTA for 5-10 years while we negotiated trade deals, then hard brexit if people are still mad about immigration?

    Not one of the options. There is hard Brexit or no Brexit. A very clear position by the EU27.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    JRM for leader is an even more mad idea than Osborne for Conservative leader.


    He'd make a good party chairman though...
    Perhaps - wonder what Tories on here think of the party chairmen/women they've had in recent years? IIRC Tories weren't too keen on Warsi and Shapps, and I don't remember seeing much enthusiasm for Feldman.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    She's a fuckwit. Dump her

    The new, mellow, doesn't care about politics SeanT...
    I'm here for a nostalgic chat. Not caring about politics has been the BEST thing I ever did, since discovering (deleted for explicit content)
    I saw on your Twitter you was having blood texts (in a hospital department that most definitely was NOT in any "crisis" whatsoever)

    Everything OK I hope?
    All OK, but thankyou. I'm just genuinely bored and jaundiced with politics. And also social media.

    Nice to hear. :)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    Thnificant chance we won't Brexit at all. I may lose my bet with williamglenn

    Even more likely is the soft-shit Brexit to EEA. I just don't see how the Hard Brexiteers can force through anything else.

    It's arguably the worst Brexit. Many of the rules, no influence. But there we are. It would suit me and I have argued for it before, but now I think it is probable, not just desirable.

    Is your Brexit-related slump why you've stopped posting?
    lol. No. I just stopped giving a fuck. Too much politics. Ugh.

    I have a very alluring new girlfriend. I have kids I love that need my attention. I have a job I love (thriller-writing, travel-writing). I am 53. I suddenly realised that I was LITERALLY wasting my precious time - precious seconds - arguing about shit that means shit, with shits and non-shits, about which I should not and cannot give a shit.

    I'm too old. I will be dead soon. And yet I feel youthful. I'm done with this boring bollocks. I have maybe one more decade of truly active inquiring travelling life and I want to spend it seeing the world, writing stuff, and fucking. And bringing up my kids.

    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.
    So, why give the shit to write here - again ! Or, even lurk ?
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 323
    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    Thnificant chance we won't Brexit at all. I may lose my bet with williamglenn

    Even more likely is the soft-shit Brexit to EEA. I just don't see how the Hard Brexiteers can force through anything else.

    It's arguably the worst Brexit. Many of the rules, no influence. But there we are. It would suit me and I have argued for it before, but now I think it is probable, not just desirable.

    Is your Brexit-related slump why you've stopped posting?
    lol. No. I just stopped giving a fuck. Too much politics. Ugh.

    I have a very alluring new girlfriend. I have kids I love that need my attention. I have a job I love (thriller-writing, travel-writing). I am 53. I suddenly realised that I was LITERALLY wasting my precious time - precious seconds - arguing about shit that means shit, with shits and non-shits, about which I should not and cannot give a shit.

    I'm too old. I will be dead soon. And yet I feel youthful. I'm done with this boring bollocks. I have maybe one more decade of truly active inquiring travelling life and I want to spend it seeing the world, writing stuff, and fucking. And bringing up my kids.

    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.
    So, why give the shit to write here - again ! Or, even lurk ?
    Oh shush.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories should give proper inflation pay increases to the public sector.

    And move the public sector to DC pensions whilst they're at it

    And put taxes up by how much? Or cut other budgets by how much?

    Public sector jobs (however valuable, and many are very valuable indeed) are done at the expense of the private sector - the only sector that provides growth. Putting taxes up will hurt the public sector.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    Freggles said:

    Freggles said:

    Can anyone explain why we wouldn't go for EFTA for 5-10 years while we negotiated trade deals, then hard brexit if people are still mad about immigration?

    Because we're the supplicants in this deal.

    We need the support of the EU27.
    Even to join EFTA?
    Why would EFTA wat the UK on a temporary basis?
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Going to say something a lot of PBers won't like (again) but I'm liking Craig Oliver and Caroline Lucas tonight.

  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories should give proper inflation pay increases to the public sector.

    And move the public sector to DC pensions whilst they're at it

    And reduce teachers holidays to five weeks and make them provide additional one on one teaching during the school holidays
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Going to say something a lot of PBers won't like (again) but I'm liking Craig Oliver and Caroline Lucas tonight.

    Have he and JRM had their heated exchange yet?
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    RoyalBlue said:

    Going to say something a lot of PBers won't like (again) but I'm liking Craig Oliver and Caroline Lucas tonight.

    Have he and JRM had their heated exchange yet?
    I think it's coming up now....
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    He's too otherworldly; but his answers are much more cogent than most politicians. JRM Vs Corbyn would be incredible.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories should give proper inflation pay increases to the public sector.

    And move the public sector to DC pensions whilst they're at it

    And put taxes up by how much? Or cut other budgets by how much?

    Public sector jobs (however valuable, and many are very valuable indeed) are done at the expense of the private sector - the only sector that provides growth. Putting taxes up will hurt the public sector.
    Taxes could afford to go up - particularly to fund inflation linked pay rises for public sector workers. Pretty much all the extra spending for these pay rises will get pumped stright back into the economy in the form of consumer spending, wihich will drive private sector growth.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    50/1 next PM, 28/1 next party leader, with Wm Hill. Not tempted at those prices.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP would also no longer have a majority of Scottish seats on that poll, at least the Jezza surge combined with the Davidson gains has killed off indyref2, perhaps for a generation
    Actually with Labour numbers like that, it will win far more seats in Scotland alone. THe Labour majority will be close to 20.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    houndtang said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    He's too otherworldly; but his answers are much more cogent than most politicians. JRM Vs Corbyn would be incredible.
    Dya know, his voice is more similar to Major than for example Douglas Home. Is he that otherwordly?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    SeanT said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    Thnificant chance we won't Brexit at all. I may lose my bet with williamglenn

    Even more likely is the soft-shit Brexit to EEA. I just don't see how the Hard Brexiteers can force through anything else.

    It's arguably the worst Brexit. Many of the rules, no influence. But there we are. It would suit me and I have argued for it before, but now I think it is probable, not just desirable.

    Is your Brexit-related slump why you've stopped posting?
    lol. No. I just stopped giving a fuck. Too much politics. Ugh.

    I have a very alluring new girlfriend. I have kids I love that need my attention. I have a job I love (thriller-writing, travel-writing). I am 53. I suddenly realised that I was LITERALLY wasting my precious time - precious seconds - arguing about shit that means shit, with shits and non-shits, about which I should not and cannot give a shit.

    I'm too old. I will be dead soon. And yet I feel youthful. I'm done with this boring bollocks. I have maybe one more decade of truly active inquiring travelling life and I want to spend it seeing the world, writing stuff, and fucking. And bringing up my kids.

    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.
    Interesting points but Vince Cable is 20 years your senior and about to be LD leader, Corbyn and Trump are both almost 70 and Berlusconi could well be elected PM of Italy again next year at the age of 80 (and that hasn't stopped his love life or living the dolce vita)
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    As expected, Craig Oliver came off worse from that encounter.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    Thnificant chance we won't Brexit at all. I may lose my bet with williamglenn

    Even more likely is the soft-shit Brexit to EEA. I just don't see how the Hard Brexiteers can force through anything else.

    It's arguably the worst Brexit. Many of the rules, no influence. But there we are. It would suit me and I have argued for it before, but now I think it is probable, not just desirable.

    Is your Brexit-related slump why you've stopped posting?
    lol. No. I just stopped giving a fuck. Too much politics. Ugh.

    I have a very alluring new girlfriend. I have kids I love that need my attention. I have a job I love (thriller-writing, travel-writing). I am 53. I suddenly realised that I was LITERALLY wasting my precious time - precious seconds - arguing about shit that means shit, with shits and non-shits, about which I should not and cannot give a shit.

    I'm too old. I will be dead soon. And yet I feel youthful. I'm done with this boring bollocks. I have maybe one more decade of truly active inquiring travelling life and I want to spend it seeing the world, writing stuff, and fucking. And bringing up my kids.

    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.
    Interesting points but Vince Cable is 20 years your senior and about to be LD leader, Corbyn and Trump are both almost 70 and Berlusconi could well be elected PM of Italy again next year at the age of 80 (and that hasn't stopped his love life or living the dolce vita)
    +1

    80 is the new 60. Man-up for goodness sake!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Susie Boniface sums it up.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    He's too otherworldly; but his answers are much more cogent than most politicians. JRM Vs Corbyn would be incredible.
    Dya know, his voice is more similar to Major than for example Douglas Home. Is he that otherwordly?
    He's just called his kid Sixtus ffs!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Labour DESERVE to get laughed at on this question.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    QT audience not treating him as a twat, and they are mauling Richard Burgon, so clearly have sound judgment.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Benpointer

    But Salmond is surely correct. From just about all of the Scottish media we were treated to a full week of "Scottish economy on brink of recession" and "indy ref to blame" only to find that GDP was actually growing FOUR times as fast as England in run up to Nicola's referendum 2.

    Did the BBC et al then admit their embarrassing mistake. Not a bit of it. They stuck it down their news bulletin and pretended they hadn't been cheerleading for their non existant recession.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories should give proper inflation pay increases to the public sector.

    And move the public sector to DC pensions whilst they're at it

    And put taxes up by how much? Or cut other budgets by how much?

    Public sector jobs (however valuable, and many are very valuable indeed) are done at the expense of the private sector - the only sector that provides growth. Putting taxes up will hurt the public sector.
    Time to sort this lot out

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/3534233/Public-sector-pensions-Just-how-generous-are-they.html

    The nurses need the cash now, not when they're 65+...

    I think what I'm proposing could be done on a net neutral basis or close enough.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    He's too otherworldly; but his answers are much more cogent than most politicians. JRM Vs Corbyn would be incredible.
    Dya know, his voice is more similar to Major than for example Douglas Home. Is he that otherwordly?
    He's just called his kid Sixtus ffs!
    LOL, exactly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    Thnificant chance we won't Brexit at all. I may lose my bet with williamglenn

    Even more likely is the soft-shit Brexit to EEA. I just don't see how the Hard Brexiteers can force through anything else.

    It's arguably the worst Brexit. Many of the rules, no influence. But there we are. It would suit me and I have argued for it before, but now I think it is probable, not just desirable.

    Is your Brexit-related slump why you've stopped posting?
    lol. No. I just stopped giving a fuck. Too much politics. Ugh.

    I have a very alluring new girlfriend. I have kids I love that need my attention. I have a job I love (thriller-writing, travel-writing). I am 53. I suddenly realised that I was LITERALLY wasting my precious time - precious seconds - arguing about shit that means shit, with shits and non-shits, about which I should not and cannot give a shit.

    I'm too old. I will be dead soon. And yet I feel youthful. I'm done with this boring bollocks. I have maybe one more decade of truly active inquiring travelling life and I want to spend it seeing the world, writing stuff, and fucking. And bringing up my kids.

    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.
    Interesting points but Vince Cable is 20 years your senior and about to be LD leader, Corbyn and Trump are both almost 70 and Berlusconi could well be elected PM of Italy again next year at the age of 80 (and that hasn't stopped his love life or living the dolce vita)
    +1

    80 is the new 60. Man-up for goodness sake!
    Yes we are all living longer and generally healthier lives than we used to, in fact if the next presidential election is Trump v Sanders both would be in their 70s
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Nive to see SeanT back, in mellow depoliticised mood and enjoying life. For most of us, including me at the omnt, politics is a hobby and in no way a duty.

    The Tories only have two sensible choices: replace May now or wait till Brexit negotiations are complete - for the party to change the PM in the middle of negotiations would be ridiculous and would really damage British interests as rival successors postured to the gallery while the EU twiddled its thumbs.

    Keeping her on has the merit that she'll get the blame for the probably tumultuous ride that Brexit is going to be, and anyone (except Boris) will then look like a steadying hand on thwe tiller. The problem is that this only really works if everyone loyally supports her for the next two years, which almost nobody seems inclined to do. Two years of people spinning off in all directions doesn't sound like a formula for success - Corbyn will increasingly seem the only adult in the room.

    So maybe they should take the plunge. But I don't think they will.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    The SNP would also no longer have a majority of Scottish seats on that poll, at least the Jezza surge combined with the Davidson gains has killed off indyref2, perhaps for a generation
    Actually with Labour numbers like that, it will win far more seats in Scotland alone. THe Labour majority will be close to 20.
    If Labour do win I at least want them to win a majority, not have to govern with the SNP
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    edited July 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    QT audience not treating him as a twat, and they are mauling Richard Burgon, so clearly have sound judgment.
    Like I say I was wrong on Trump; I reserve my right to be wrong on Jacob Cream-Crackers...

    But an Eton educated, ex-city banker, against same-sex marriage... I am not sure he's going to make big inroads into the youth vote that the Tories will need to capture more of.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    There may be trouble ahead,
    But while there's moonlight and music and love and romance,
    Let's face the music and dance the Brexit away !
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    QT audience not treating him as a twat, and they are mauling Richard Burgon, so clearly have sound judgment.
    Richard Burgon deserves to be criticised - I agree with the audience on that one.
    But QT audiences aren't necessarily an insight into the views of most people.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Totally agree with Craig Oliver there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    Nive to see SeanT back, in mellow depoliticised mood and enjoying life. For most of us, including me at the omnt, politics is a hobby and in no way a duty.

    The Tories only have two sensible choices: replace May now or wait till Brexit negotiations are complete - for the party to change the PM in the middle of negotiations would be ridiculous and would really damage British interests as rival successors postured to the gallery while the EU twiddled its thumbs.

    Keeping her on has the merit that she'll get the blame for the probably tumultuous ride that Brexit is going to be, and anyone (except Boris) will then look like a steadying hand on thwe tiller. The problem is that this only really works if everyone loyally supports her for the next two years, which almost nobody seems inclined to do. Two years of people spinning off in all directions doesn't sound like a formula for success - Corbyn will increasingly seem the only adult in the room.

    So maybe they should take the plunge. But I don't think they will.

    May should stay until the Brexit deal is done, or be replaced by Davis. Boris could be the leader at the next general election, he is already taking a more populist line on public sector pay, is the only senior Tory with real charisma and there is a poetic justice in his having to lead the country post Brexit having done so much to bring it about. If he wins the country is saved from Corbyn, if he loses the party can start to move on with the next generation in opposition and put Brexit behind them
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited July 2017
    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    Quincel said:

    The 13/8 at a couple of bookies on no election before 2020 is very generous. It's in only one party's interest to have a quick election: and Labour can't do it on their own. Maybe things change and the government have a post-Brexit election, but I don't think it's desperately likely.

    I really don't think it IS in Labour's interests to have an election any time soon. They would probably win it, but the huge downside is that they would have the hot potato of Brexit land in their lap.

    We are heading for a Brexit which is not looking good at the moment and possibly even a second referendum. Labour need the Tories to totally own Brexit or the betrayal felt by Leavers if they call a second referendum.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Labour DESERVE to get laughed at on this question.

    I am out of the UK so cannot see QT. But Labour can afford to be laughed at with 46% in the polls. They will take it.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    I think Susie Boniface has a point here, University fees are long term a transfer from the taxpayer to universities...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    houndtang said:



    He's too otherworldly; but his answers are much more cogent than most politicians. JRM Vs Corbyn would be incredible.

    It would be the politest election in British history. Neither likes to criticise anyone personally. Might do us all good.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    I can see JRM as leader. He is the coherent, albeit eccentric, voice of Brexit.

    Well worth a punt.

    Will lose the election, but leader is quite possible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854

    I can see JRM as leader. He is the coherent, albeit eccentric, voice of Brexit.

    The best thing about the rise of JRM is that he will corner the market in Brexit broadcasting so Farage will find it much more difficult to get airtime.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    He'll always come across as a posh twat to the majority of the population - there's more chance of the Donald becoming POTUS than JRM becoming PM. (Oh... shit!)
    QT audience not treating him as a twat, and they are mauling Richard Burgon, so clearly have sound judgment.
    Richard Burgon deserves to be criticised - I agree with the audience on that one.
    But QT audiences aren't necessarily an insight into the views of most people.
    Well no, but what was remarkable was that he gracefully conceded that he can afford private schools for 6 children, and is rich enough never to have claimed a penny MP expenses, and was was heard in respectful silence, and it was Burgon not jrm who was accused of living in a bubble.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited July 2017

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum and never lost a parliamentary seat he has fought either, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Err Boris lost Clywd South in 1997
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Decent QT.

    Oliver, Lucas, and Boniface were all great. Also, loved the girl in the audience echoing the thoughts of many young people in this country.

    The reply from the older guy in the audience in regard to tuition fees sums up an aspect of the LEAVE vote - turning back the clock and travelling back to the past. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/how-brexiteers-appealed-to-voters-nostalgia/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/08/things-were-better-in-the-past-brexit-and-the-westminster-fallacy-of-democratic-nostalgia/

    We also saw the growing divide and tension between the young and the old - a divide which could contribute to us ending up with a Corbyn government.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    GIN1138 said:

    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?

    Yup
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    I can see JRM as leader. He is the coherent, albeit eccentric, voice of Brexit.

    Well worth a punt.

    Will lose the election, but leader is quite possible.
    I agree that he expresses himself well. But I don't think he would make inroads with the groups the Tories need to win over.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum and never lost a parliamentary seat he has fought either, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Err Boris lost Clywd South in 1997
    OK but no Tory has won Clwyd South since its creation
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    edited July 2017



    We also saw the growing divide and tension between the young and the old - a divide which could contribute to us ending up with a Corbyn government.

    Who would be the oldest PM since....? ;)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    GIN1138 said:

    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?

    Yup
    Really?

    That's a bit of an OTT reaction.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439

    GIN1138 said:

    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?

    Yup
    Really?

    That's a bit of an OTT reaction.
    He knew it was all over for him and Cam....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345

    GIN1138 said:

    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?

    Yup
    Really?

    That's a bit of an OTT reaction.
    Was a mixture of feeling of letting Dave down, and knowing what was to come.

    No 10 was a very emotional place in the early hours of June 24th.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854
    AndyJS said:

    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.

    An English-speaking foreign bogeyman would be manna from heaven for Trump. He'd paint us as the new red threat, and he may even have a point.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849
    SeanT said:



    I don't care any more. Not caring is intensely liberating. I recommend it.

    See you tomorrow.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2017

    AndyJS said:

    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.

    An English-speaking foreign bogeyman would be manna from heaven for Trump. He'd paint us as the new red threat, and he may even have a point.
    The Tories must be hoping this Corbyn surge dissipates within 6 months or so. If it doesn't they're in serious trouble.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533
    AndyJS said:

    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.

    Not entirely sure that these eventualities will overlap.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533

    GIN1138 said:

    Is Craig Oliver the one that threw up in the Downing St. rose garden after the referendum?

    Yup
    Who came blame him?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635

    Decent QT.

    Oliver, Lucas, and Boniface were all great. Also, loved the girl in the audience echoing the thoughts of many young people in this country.

    The reply from the older guy in the audience in regard to tuition fees sums up an aspect of the LEAVE vote - turning back the clock and travelling back to the past. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/how-brexiteers-appealed-to-voters-nostalgia/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/08/things-were-better-in-the-past-brexit-and-the-westminster-fallacy-of-democratic-nostalgia/

    We also saw the growing divide and tension between the young and the old - a divide which could contribute to us ending up with a Corbyn government.

    The one who said getting to university ought to be academically hard and financially easy ?

    I thought that was a fair point to be honest..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited July 2017
    AndyJS said:

    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.

    May well be Sanders and Corbyn, Sanders leads Trump by 10% in the latest PPP 2020 poll, more than Corbyn leads May by even in this yougov poll
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Pulpstar said:

    Decent QT.

    Oliver, Lucas, and Boniface were all great. Also, loved the girl in the audience echoing the thoughts of many young people in this country.

    The reply from the older guy in the audience in regard to tuition fees sums up an aspect of the LEAVE vote - turning back the clock and travelling back to the past. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/how-brexiteers-appealed-to-voters-nostalgia/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/08/things-were-better-in-the-past-brexit-and-the-westminster-fallacy-of-democratic-nostalgia/

    We also saw the growing divide and tension between the young and the old - a divide which could contribute to us ending up with a Corbyn government.

    The one who said getting to university ought to be academically hard and financially easy ?

    I thought that was a fair point to be honest..
    If that was the case, we could give free tuition to all those at uni, because 50% of 18 year olds wouldn't be going (certainly not full time). But then I don't think they would like to hear that.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yougov have got both the last 2 general elections completely wrong in their main poll so why should we bother listening to them now? If Survation starts showing similar figures then she can be a bit more concerned

    ...

    She may be right on the public sector pay cap but it is just bad politics. The deal with the DUP opens Theresa to attack when it probably was not necessary. Grenfell media coverage has been wall to wall pain and suffering and traumatised residents being politicised, and of course Brexit going pear shape day by day.

    I have no idea how long Theresa will survive but I expect the polls to continue to reflect the mood of the Country and things could get worse and the only light at the end of the tunnel for the conservative party is that they do have time and they need to use it wisely

    And I say that on the day I received my renewed membership card
    I don't agree with all your posts Big G but this is an excellent summary.

    Wtf is she thinking with her stance on public sector pay for example?
    I got the impression she decided that if she gave way Labour would get all the credit, and the pressure would simply move along to the next item on the spending list.
    Mmmm, maybe but the optics are just terrible, and it's hardly an issue that's going to fade away; rather, it will just get worse as inflation ticks up and more years of effective pay-cuts are added to the public sector workers.
    My guess is that selective increases will be above 1% when the review bodies report. If they are for popular groups it will be good politics whist holding firm in other areas. Simply abandoning the cap would have looked terrible for a government - it has to be replaced by another justifiable policy.
    I think they could make a case for abandoning that ran something like: post-2008, private sector incomes reflected the economic situation (i.e. fell in real-terms) whereas public sector incomes increased in real-terms. The recent cap has corrected that situation, so relative public vs. private sector incomes are back in balance... ergo now is the right time to ease the cap.

    (And to pay for it we're going to freeze income tax allowances, or find some other tax to increase, because we still want to see the defecit removed and public debt start to come down.)
    The reality of it is the increased tax allowance has raised take home pay without raising pay above 1%.

    It really isn't rocket science.
    The tax allowance changes since 2010 are worth a pitiful amount - about £800 a year.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854
    Scott_P said:
    Stewart Jackson vs Martin Selmayr wouldn't exactly be a meeting of minds.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
    Farage did the groundwork, Boris had enough appeal to a broader electorate to get Leave over 50%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    AndyJS said:

    Trump and Corbyn in charge of the US and the UK. What a combination that would be.

    An English-speaking foreign bogeyman would be manna from heaven for Trump. He'd paint us as the new red threat, and he may even have a point.
    It is actually more likely the US elects Sanders first
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
    Farage did the groundwork, Boris had enough appeal to a broader electorate to get Leave over 50%
    Given Boris' unpopularity now, I doubt it was his appeal which got Leave over 50%.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited July 2017
    This is all a bit yawn. Tezza will still be in place this time next year.

    I'd vote for Mogg. He's basically the Tories' Corbyn, in a way. A throwback who wins people over through possessing a personality. He's political Teflon, like Corbyn and Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited July 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
    Farage did the groundwork, Boris had enough appeal to a broader electorate to get Leave over 50%
    Given Boris' unpopularity now, I doubt it was his appeal which got Leave over 50%.
    Where is this evidence Boris is so unpopular? He is certainly more popular than Farage and it was Boris who was the figurehead of Vote Leave. He did not twice win Labour London without knowing how to win an election and his backing for ending the public sector pay cap this week shows he still has his finger on the pulse
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would garner a lot of hostility proved very wrong. He put in a typically stellar performance and had the audience reluctantly admiring his contributions by the end of the programme. I have been a fan ever since, even if I don't agree with all his views. If you can get a Glasgow audience to warm to you at a time when your party was still toxic, then you definitely have a talent for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
    Farage did the groundwork, Boris had enough appeal to a broader electorate to get Leave over 50%
    Given Boris' unpopularity now, I doubt it was his appeal which got Leave over 50%.
    Where is this evidence Boris is so unpopular? He is certainly far more popular than Farage and it was Boris who was the figurehead of Vote Leave. He did not twice win Labour London without knowing how to win an election and his backing for ending the public sector pay cap this week shows he still has his finger on the pulse
    See the previous independent link.

    Goodnight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    fitalass said:

    franklyn said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg on QT, pure class.
    Therein lies the future of the Conservative party. Put your money on now

    Whisper it quietly, but there is a steadily growing Jacob Rees Mogg fan club that at some point is going to over take Boris in the popularity stakes. Both highly intelligent maverick politicians, but Mogg can articulate his views in a far more Statesman like way and comes without the baggage of colourful private life. I await the Jacob vs Boris meme, you were the future once.

    I still remember groaning when I realised that Jacob Rees Mogg was going to be the 'Conservative MP' on the BBC QuestionTime panel from Glasgow years ago, and at a time when the party representative would be greeted with a stoney silence. Well my view that he would t for articulating and selling your message.
    Are you referring to this in the context of the Conservative party? Because Boris is hardly popular in the country overall....
    Boris has won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, that is a better electoral record than any other politician in Westminster today
    Boris did well to win in London, I agree.

    That said, you think Boris won it for LEAVE - really? I'd give Nigel Farage more credit than I ever would Boris for laying the groundwork for the LEAVE vote.

    Boris' popularity has taken a downturn since the LEAVE vote last year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-boris-johnson-michael-gove-nigel-farage-poll-hated-british-public-char-yougov-a7805466.html
    Farage did the groundwork, Boris had enough appeal to a broader electorate to get Leave over 50%
    Given Boris' unpopularity now, I doubt it was his appeal which got Leave over 50%.
    Where is this evidence Boris is so unpopular? He is certainly far more popular than Farage and it was Boris who was the figurehead of Vote Leave. He did not twice win Labour London without knowing how to win an election and his backing for ending the public sector pay cap this week shows he still has his finger on the pulse
    See the previous independent link.

    Goodnight.
    Corbyn had far higher negatives than that only weeks ago, in the current volatile mood of the electorate that means nothing
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,381
    Whistle while you work
    Corbyn is a twerp
    He's half barmy
    So's his army
    Whistle while you work
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,381



    The reply from the older guy in the audience in regard to tuition fees sums up an aspect of the LEAVE vote - turning back the clock and travelling back to the past.

    Soeaking of turning back the clock:

    The Treaty of Rome (which set up the EU in its original form) dates way back to 1957!

    The EU is a 1950s throwback!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,381

    IanB2 said:

    Fourth. Now fifth! I didn't think you could change position after a second refresh!

    Because the tactic of co-ordinated resignations worked so well for Labour MPs?

    Toxic is unfair. She isn't poisonous, just uninspiring and hopeless.

    She made a net loss of seats against Corbyn's Labour, that's the epitome of toxic.
    OTOH she gained 12 seats in Scotland.
    Cameron won only one in 2010 and 2015
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    As a regular watcher of BBC QuestionTime, its really interesting to note the divergence from unremmitingly negative media coverage of May, Corbynmania and the turn around in the polls in recent weeks. It just doesn't match the media narrative that the Conservatives are broadly suddenly toxic, or that Corbyn's crew are universally winning the political arguments in the way the media are reporting.

    Last week Liam Fox was supposedly sitting in the hot seat as the Government representative, but he had such an easy ride that I don't think he even got asked to respond to the last question of the programme. In fact, last week it was Stella Creasy who ended up with the tougher gig as she was left defending the Leadership of her party, and you could not help but notice the hint of amnimosity between Richard Burgon and the Mirror columnist Susie Boniface this week.

    I find it interesting that while the media are totally obsessed with Cabinet Ministers going off piste on policy while No10 was missing a director of Communications, and every political journalist is uncovering Brexit splits and an ever more ludicrous plots to remove May. Yet the Labour party under Corbyn and his team remain hopelessly split on everything from Brexit to Trident while the Leadership seem to spend more time at Music Festivals and protest marches than doing their day job. Add in the unhealthy devolopment whereby Momentum are taking control of local party associations and now threatening local MPs with deselection if they don't tow the line, and I suspect that the media are missing the wider point on the position of both main party Leaders right now.

    Both main party Leaders are safe in the short term despite May being deemed in a weaker position as PM while Corbyn is deemed to be in stronger position having lost the GE, go figure. Bottom line, there is no appetite to remove either Leader in the short term for much the same reasons. Neither the PCP or PLP backbenchers want or expect another GE anytime soon, and as a result, they don't expect either May or Corbyn to lead them into the next GE if the current Government survives after a Brexit deal is agreed and delivered 2/3 years from now.

    I am no fan of May, but she has in fact put in a far better performance as PM over the last couple of weeks than the media would have you believe. Who knew that removing her very controlling long time advisors Fiona Hill and Nick Timothy would unleash a far better performing politician. Not only that, but the Corbyn and Mcdonnell method of doing politics is looking more unattractive by the minute. A word of warning to the Labour party, the SNP saw a huge increase in membership following the Indy Ref in 2014. But that newly founded Yes movement also then invaded and tried to take control of many local SNP associations and brought about damaging infighting that ultimately undermined and damaged the formely strong grass roots activist base on the doorsteps where it mattered.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    edited July 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Where is this evidence Boris is so unpopular?

    HYUFD said:

    ...it was Boris who was the figurehead of Vote Leave.

    Lmao
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited July 2017

    Decent QT.

    Oliver, Lucas, and Boniface were all great. Also, loved the girl in the audience echoing the thoughts of many young people in this country.

    The reply from the older guy in the audience in regard to tuition fees sums up an aspect of the LEAVE vote - turning back the clock and travelling back to the past. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/how-brexiteers-appealed-to-voters-nostalgia/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/08/things-were-better-in-the-past-brexit-and-the-westminster-fallacy-of-democratic-nostalgia/

    We also saw the growing divide and tension between the young and the old - a divide which could contribute to us ending up with a Corbyn government.

    Freggles said:

    Can anyone explain why we wouldn't go for EFTA for 5-10 years while we negotiated trade deals, then hard brexit if people are still mad about immigration?

    Because we're the supplicants in this deal.

    We need the support of the EU27.
    I was a very strong and passionate Remain voter back in the day when we voted to leave the EU. I still remember posting a very simple message on here expressing how gutted I was at the result, but yet accepting that democracy had spoken.

    But now, I have gone from a Remain voter to being a very fed up new Brexit voter who is tired of all the media negativity about the position of the UK in a very negative and failing EU. Yes, I love my holidays in France and Italy, but no, I hate the way the EU are behaving right now when in fact they are in a weaker position than the UK following the global economic crisis nearly a decade ago. The way the UK media are behaving, and with the very predictable bullying reaction of the EU in trying to threaten us, you would think the UK are in the weaker position?! But how can losing one of the few NET contributing countries to the EU and NATO who DOES pay their way be negative for the UK and make the EU the stronger partner in the negociations when 27 countries, most of whom don't have a say?!

    I was shocked to discover that Germany, the richest economic powerhouse in the EU, and it doesn't pay its full way in NATO! No other country has benefitted more from NATO than Germany over the last few decades, not only did the UK and US Nato security forces in particular provide vital security within Germany throughout the Cold War, but their many bases also contributed to the local communities there as well! And now we have far smaller countries in the EU that bit closer to Russia thinking they can call the military shots on the UK. Where the hell is Spain, Portugal, Germany etc in these discussions?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited July 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    I think Susie Boniface has a point here, University fees are long term a transfer from the taxpayer to universities...

    Best QuestionTime ever for putting the case for tuition fees down South as opposed to having free tuition fees up here Scotland. Seriously, those supposed 'unfair tuition fees' charged in Scotland from English, Welsh and Nothern Irish students have been keeping Scottish Univeristies afloat while places for Scottish students have continued to shrink and become like hens teeth.

    And the Scottish Government have allowed EU students the same supposed free tuition perks that Scottish students have with none of the investment in return! The figures speak for themselves, students from poorer backgrounds are far more likely to reach University in the rest of the UK than in Scotland. And as a parent of three lads who have recently gone through the Scottish University system, the youngest is still at University and its a bloody scandal! Basically, if you are a parent and can afford to pay the living costs of your child meets the ever more stringent academic requirementsfor Uni up here they then qualify for a place they can accept, but don't even bother applying to any other Uni in the UK unless your child is exceptional bright and you afford to pay the tuition fees on top of their living costs. Its no accident that I count on one hand the friends of my kids who currently attending Uni in the rest of the UK!

    The SNP myth about 'free tuition fees' delivering a progressive further education policy up here is the biggest myth in politics in the politics in the UK. Its a big fat lie, free tuition fees up here has lead to a huge lack of investment in further education that is really hurting both students, colleges and Universities up here. Don't listen to Corbyn and his crew and make the same mistakes we did.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited July 2017
    fitalass said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think Susie Boniface has a point here, University fees are long term a transfer from the taxpayer to universities...

    Best QuestionTime ever for putting the case for tuition fees down South as opposed to having free tuition fees up here Scotland. Seriously, those supposed 'unfair tuition fees' charged in Scotland from English, Welsh and Nothern Irish students have been keeping Scottish Univeristies afloat while places for Scottish students have continued to shrink and become like hens teeth.

    And the Scottish Government have allowed EU students the same supposed free tuition perks that Scottish students have with none of the investment in return! The figures speak for themselves, students from poorer backgrounds are far more likely to reach University in the rest of the UK than in Scotland. And as a parent of three lads who have recently gone through the Scottish University system, the youngest is still at University and its a bloody scandal! Basically, if you are a parent and can afford to pay the living costs of your child meets the ever more stringent academic requirementsfor Uni up here they then qualify for a place they can accept, but don't even bother applying to any other Uni in the UK unless your child is exceptional bright and you afford to pay the tuition fees on top of their living costs. Its no accident that I count on one hand the friends of my kids who currently attending Uni in the rest of the UK!

    The SNP myth about 'free tuition fees' delivering a progressive further education policy up here is the biggest myth in politics in the politics in the UK. Its a big fat lie, free tuition fees up here has lead to a huge lack of investment in further education that is really hurting both students, colleges and Universities up here. Don't listen to Corbyn and his crew and make the same mistakes we did.
    The principle of students making a contribution to their education is sound. However, basing maintenance grants on family income is flawed (people from rich backgrounds may go into a lower paying career, and vice verse) and most would agree that at £9000 p.a. and RPI+3% interest rates the contribution expected from the individual was too high.

    The 2005-2010 system of £3500 fees and RPI+0% interest rates seemed much more reasonable.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    Mortimer said:

    houndtang said:

    Rees Mogg for leader. For the lolz.

    I'd say 'bring it on' but then I remember I was keen to see Trump win the GOP nomination as it would make the Dems a shoo-in... and look how that ended!
    He is charming, funny and clever. He is unashamedly Tory. He'd do well.
    But he seems to be a cartoon Tory.
    What they need is a One Nation leader, I don't know anything about his likely policies would he fit the bill?
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