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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield: How retiring MPs could add to Lib Dem woes

SystemSystem Posts: 12,250
edited August 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield: How retiring MPs could add to Lib Dem woes

With recent polls putting the Liberal Democrats at 10% of the national vote (in a virtual tie with UKIP and half their general election vote in 2010), it is safe to say that most Liberal Democrat activists are starting to get just a little on the edgy side about the next election (now less than 21 months away, assuming there isn’t a vote of no confidence as in Germany a few years ago).

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Bah.

    The Lib Dems were doomed the moment I backed them to have 51plus seats at the next General Election
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Bah.

    The Lib Dems were doomed the moment I backed them to have 51plus seats at the next General Election

    An excellent use of your curse, and money well spent.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    FPT @currystar

    currystar said:
    As I said this morning there would be no way that executors would pay money from a will to someone who was not entitled to it. No matter the Mail, OGH, and many politicians from all sides fell for it. People may think its amazing that someone would want to leave their entire fortune to a political party, but if it is that persons wish then so be it. They should not give the money to the state, this lady wanted them to have it and her wishes should be met, not those of the sniveling jealous losers who somehow thought that two political parties had managed to interfere with the executors of a will and got them to pay them money inappropriately. It simply could not happen.

    "People may think its amazing that someone would want to leave their entire fortune to a political party"

    But she didn't leave it to a specific political party. That's what is completely bizarre.

    We'll probably never know what her motivation was when she wrote her will, but the probability that she decided to bet part of her estate on a game of electoral cycle roulette has to be pretty low - whatever the solicitors say.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2013
    Interesting article, Harry. In fact, I think the loss-of-incumbency effect in Berwick-upon-Tweed in particular might be even bigger than that, given Sir Alan Beith's popularity and personal reputation, built up over many years.

    One thing puzzles me, though - the first bar-chart seems to indicate that Labour is actively disadvantaged by incumbency - is that right?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    BuzzFeed UK ‏@BuzzFeedUK 2m
    9 ways Ed Miliband and Wallace from “Wallace And Gromit” are basically the same person http://bit.ly/15wCcCL

    You just know there's no hope for Ed, don't you...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    UKIP does not have sitting MPs

    tim said:

    No calculations for UKIP, are we to assume they poll the same in Dorset as last time?

  • Since the 1997 general election (in seats where the Lib Dem incumbent stands down) Labour (on average) see their vote in that constituency do 4% better than nationally. So for instance the national polls suggest Labour are up about 8% on the last election, this means that in this example Labour's vote would increase by 12% in a Lib Dem retiring seat. (The projections are based purely on a uniform national swing of 3% from Lib Dem to Con ignoring any Labour increase)
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OGH..You have gone and spoiled it now....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interesting article Harry - it's noteworthy that of the 9 Lib Dem MPs older than Dorset's Annette Brooks, only Beith has announced his retirement. Who else will retire? Quite possibly Vince & Ming will soldier on - but I'd be surprised if Hancock stood again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Liberal_Democrat_MPs_(2010–)
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Does the non-incumbency effect apply to by-elections?

    It didn't seem to in Eastleigh.

    Perhaps the Lib Dems would be better persuading their 'seniors' to continue standing as MPs, wheeling them into the House of Commons on hospital trolleys if necessary, and fighting by elections when they finally give up the ghost?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Interesting article Harry - it's noteworthy that of the 9 Lib Dem MPs older than Dorset's Annette Brooks, only Beith has announced his retirement. Who else will retire? Quite possibly Vince & Ming will soldier on - but I'd be surprised if Hancock stood again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Liberal_Democrat_MPs_(2010–)

    Do you think Hancock would carry an incumbency bonus considering, well, you know what?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Informative as ever - Cheers Mr Hayfield.

    “Whenever an MP stands down, the Liberal Democrat vote collapses compared to the national average”

    There has been much talk of the incumbency factor wrt the Lib Dems – Is it entirely down to the quality & general high regard with which the LD MP is held, or are there other factors at play here?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    Since the 1997 general election (in seats where the Lib Dem incumbent stands down) Labour (on average) see their vote in that constituency do 4% better than nationally. So for instance the national polls suggest Labour are up about 8% on the last election, this means that in this example Labour's vote would increase by 12% in a Lib Dem retiring seat. (The projections are based purely on a uniform national swing of 3% from Lib Dem to Con ignoring any Labour increase)

    Ah, OK, that wasn't clear in the article. It makes sense.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    One thing puzzles me, though - the first bar-chart seems to indicate that Labour is actively disadvantaged by incumbency - is that right?

    The graph could do with a label, but it must mean that Labour are disadvantaged by the incumbency of the LibDem in seats the LibDems hold.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2013

    Informative as ever - Cheers Mr Hayfield.

    “Whenever an MP stands down, the Liberal Democrat vote collapses compared to the national average”

    There has been much talk of the incumbency factor wrt the Lib Dems – Is it entirely down to the quality & general high regard with which the LD MP is held, or are there other factors at play here?

    One of the main elements is that party orgnanisation in LD Westminster seats is, as you'd expect, much stronger than the norm. We see in local council elections that the party is doing reasonably well where it has sitting MPs.

    There are a few other places where they are in a position to challenge the Tory incumbent and I expect one or two gains. One in particular will be a great bet if a particular candidate is persuaded to stand.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    More data which suggest that Labour should not be favourites in Cambridge.

    Huppert could be in for a generation..
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2013

    One thing puzzles me, though - the first bar-chart seems to indicate that Labour is actively disadvantaged by incumbency - is that right?

    The graph could do with a label, but it must mean that Labour are disadvantaged by the incumbency of the LibDem in seats the LibDems hold.
    Right, or, to put it another way, when the incumbent retires, the LibDem vote falls substantially (compared with any rise/fall in other constituencies), with Labour benefitting more than the Conservatives in vote-share terms. Of course, that may still have the effect that the Conservatives win the seat if it's a Con/LD marginal.

    Interesting to note that in 2010 'Others' (presumably the Greens) seem to have gained the most.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."

    I freely admit to not knowing the price of an egg, despite buying some this morning. Does this make me rich or just senile?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,090
    edited August 2013
    I'm trying to think of an instance of a LD MP retiring and the successor candidate increasing the LD share of the vote...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."

    I freely admit to not knowing the price of an egg, despite buying some this morning. Does this make me rich or just senile?
    Merely coddled.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    One thing puzzles me, though - the first bar-chart seems to indicate that Labour is actively disadvantaged by incumbency - is that right?


    The graph could do with a label, but it must mean that Labour are disadvantaged by the incumbency of the LibDem in seats the LibDems hold.
    I've amended the chart to make clear is that it shows changes in LD seats when a non incumbent tries to defend it.

    To see the revised chart right click and choose the "re-load frame" option

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,090
    Andrea reported last week that Hazel Grove MP Andrew Stunell is almost certainly standing down, although it hasn't been officially announced yet.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I like this from Nick Boles

    Photofit of Ed Miliband egging suspect released... pic.twitter.com/DkTUADAKXW
  • Any footage of Ed Miliband getting egged?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    AveryLP said:

    Does the non-incumbency effect apply to by-elections?

    It didn't seem to in Eastleigh.

    Perhaps the Lib Dems would be better persuading their 'seniors' to continue standing as MPs, wheeling them into the House of Commons on hospital trolleys if necessary, and fighting by elections when they finally give up the ghost?

    I think they'll prefer the alternative approach, which is to get them caught up in scandals right away and have the by-election early so they have a new incumbent in place for the general.
  • Could I be the first to say Egg Miliband?

    See what I did there?

    Apparently as the eggs started flying everyone was scrambling to get out of the way. Obviously somebody egged the guy on and tempers just boiled over, but we should give people the benedict of the doubt.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    AveryLP said:

    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."

    I freely admit to not knowing the price of an egg, despite buying some this morning. Does this make me rich or just senile?
    Merely coddled.

    Addled, surely.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited August 2013
    An interesting article about former SNP leader Wilson's hate-filled diatribe against " the southern cancer " ;

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thecolumnists/2013/08/henry-hill-former-snp-leader-demands-nationalists-attack-southern-cancer.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    AveryLP said:

    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."

    I freely admit to not knowing the price of an egg, despite buying some this morning. Does this make me rich or just senile?
    Merely coddled.

    I love coddled eggs. Although throwing one (in coddler) might lead to a charge of GBH or worse.

    Mrs J doesn't like them - she thinks the hassle of using a bain-marie is a little eggcessive.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Any footage of Ed Miliband getting egged?

    I feel sorry for the egg. I mean, what a waste. ;-)

    It's obvious that eggstreme measures are called for. The hens are being scrambled ready to fry. We're not sure how it'll pan out, but we shell get to the bottom of it.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Which came first, the chicken or the Ed?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Andy_JS said:

    I'm trying to think of an instance of a LD MP retiring and the successor candidate increasing the LD share of the vote...

    Cheadle
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Ah - the Red Arrows in formation. The sight and roaring sound of an Exeter summer to gladden the heart.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited August 2013
    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire carton. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    How can tim, the Cheshire Farmer/offie worker, call anyone else a Fake
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    David Skelton ‏@DJSkelton 10m
    When Harold Wilson was hit by an egg in '70, he responded,"if the Tories get in, in five years no-one will be able to afford to buy an egg."

    I freely admit to not knowing the price of an egg, despite buying some this morning. Does this make me rich or just senile?
    I'm very price sensitive and know 15 eggs are cheap - or should that be cheep - it depends on what you're buying Tesco can get them for about 10p each.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited August 2013

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?
    Privatised policeman?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire carton. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    The entire cartoon? What an epic typo! Perfect!
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?
    To be honest I’m not entirely sure – Salisbury where I live, has a twice weekly market in the town square which I believe has council employed chaps on hand to help set up, organise and generally assist the stall holders – However they don’t wear florescent vests and act as security guards AFAIK.

    Must be a rough London neighbourhood thing…!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Matt Chorley @MattChorley
    Top question from @KayBurley "Do you want to see pictures of Prince William or do you want to see pictures of Ed Miliband being egged?"
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Josias. FPT:
    As far as I can tell the solicitor mucked up and left it unclear, as was discussed below. However, I would think they had a bit of a better idea of the lady's wishes than you.

    Unless you knew her or are a necrophiliac clairvoyant?
    The point of written wills, and the rule of law, etc, is so that we have formal ways of establishing truth, and intent, rather than relying on more easily corrupted informal methods.

    If her intention was to leave her money to the party that formed the government of the day, then her solicitors gravely failed her by failing to make that plain in her will - which after all would not have been difficult to do.

    As it is, we are left with the letter of her will - that she signed - the word of her solicitors and a mess for all concerned.

    I do not claim to know the will of the deceased in this case, but I think the starting point for an independent third party in this instance has to be the letter of the will that she signed. And that provides little support for the actions of the executors of her will.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?

    Sky - video of the egging – it looks as though the perp, Dean Porter, emptied the entire cartoon. And the smile on his face throughout is priceless…!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128517/ed-miliband-is-egged-on-campaign-visit

    Watching that video, what is a "market officer"?
    To be honest I’m not entirely sure – Salisbury where I live, has a twice weekly market in the town square which I believe has council employed chaps on hand to help set up, organise and generally assist the stall holders – However they don’t wear florescent vests and act as security guards AFAIK.

    Must be a rough London neighbourhood thing…!
    Or a creeping way of grabbing powers. Private Eye used to go on about one borough (perhaps Newham) where some minor officials were sometimes confused with an official police force. Or perhaps I misremember.

    (some google-fu).

    Ah yes, Newham Community Constabulary.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newham_Community_Constabulary
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FPT and off topic, but this story on the BBC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538

    has a striking resemblance to this page on wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_fixed_crossing
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Josias. FPT:

    As far as I can tell the solicitor mucked up and left it unclear, as was discussed below. However, I would think they had a bit of a better idea of the lady's wishes than you.

    Unless you knew her or are a necrophiliac clairvoyant?
    The point of written wills, and the rule of law, etc, is so that we have formal ways of establishing truth, and intent, rather than relying on more easily corrupted informal methods.

    If her intention was to leave her money to the party that formed the government of the day, then her solicitors gravely failed her by failing to make that plain in her will - which after all would not have been difficult to do.

    As it is, we are left with the letter of her will - that she signed - the word of her solicitors and a mess for all concerned.

    I do not claim to know the will of the deceased in this case, but I think the starting point for an independent third party in this instance has to be the letter of the will that she signed. And that provides little support for the actions of the executors of her will.

    IANAL, but in my inexpert way I disagree about the wording of the will - it seems to me to be unclear either way. Is there a standard wording for cases where people want to bequeath their money to the state, or was the text what you would expect in that case?

    As I said, IANAL, so those are probably either stupid or irrelevant questions ...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    antifrank said:

    FPT and off topic, but this story on the BBC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538

    has a striking resemblance to this page on wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_fixed_crossing

    Ryanair would love that tunnel - lol.


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @TGOHF Last night I was quoted over £300 to fly a return to Londonderry this weekend by Ryanair. Right now I'd dig the tunnel myself.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    Unravelling Cameron's attacks on the disabled must be a priority for a civilised govt

    That's a bit rich coming from the guy who wanted to cut disabled people's benefits by more.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Josias. FPT:

    As far as I can tell the solicitor mucked up and left it unclear, as was discussed below. However, I would think they had a bit of a better idea of the lady's wishes than you.

    Unless you knew her or are a necrophiliac clairvoyant?
    The point of written wills, and the rule of law, etc, is so that we have formal ways of establishing truth, and intent, rather than relying on more easily corrupted informal methods.

    If her intention was to leave her money to the party that formed the government of the day, then her solicitors gravely failed her by failing to make that plain in her will - which after all would not have been difficult to do.

    As it is, we are left with the letter of her will - that she signed - the word of her solicitors and a mess for all concerned.

    I do not claim to know the will of the deceased in this case, but I think the starting point for an independent third party in this instance has to be the letter of the will that she signed. And that provides little support for the actions of the executors of her will.
    IANAL, but in my inexpert way I disagree about the wording of the will - it seems to me to be unclear either way. Is there a standard wording for cases where people want to bequeath their money to the state, or was the text what you would expect in that case?

    As I said, IANAL, so those are probably either stupid or irrelevant questions ...

    There is a very clear statement from her lawyers. Now, I suppose they may be lying, but there is no evidence to suggest that is the case.

    If we take a step back: this lady wanted to bequest her money in the way she decided. That decision is being ignored. That doesn't seem right to me.

    In a statement on Wednesday Davis Wood, the solicitors handling Miss Edwards's estate, said that when the will was drafted in 2001, they had checked with her "the unusual nature of her proposed bequest".

    "It was confirmed by Miss Edwards at the time of her instructions that her estate was to be left to whichever political party formed the government at the date of her death," they said.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23691209
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    From a retweeted tweet:

    Tory cuts so far, 20,000 Army, 5,000 Navy, 5,000 RAF, 60,000 NHS, 16,000 Police, 730,000 Public Sector,1,700 Remploy, 2 Bankers
    #votetory

    LOL =)
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited August 2013
    will the bedroom tax be scrapped for the private sector too....it is truly amazing that in Labour world everyone who has a spare room must be disabled...
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Neil said:

    tim said:


    Unravelling Cameron's attacks on the disabled must be a priority for a civilised govt

    That's a bit rich coming from the guy who wanted to cut disabled people's benefits by more.
    Not much to choose between your lot, is there Neil and tim?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    MikeK said:

    Neil said:

    tim said:


    Unravelling Cameron's attacks on the disabled must be a priority for a civilised govt

    That's a bit rich coming from the guy who wanted to cut disabled people's benefits by more.
    Not much to choose between your lot, is there Neil and tim?
    My lot is very different from tim's lot. Though tim did vote for my lot in 2009 but I think he regrets it now.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So under Labour I will have to pay more tax so that benefit junkies can have a spare room ?

    #votewinner !
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Of course tha Header for the Independent is total nonsense..try reading it..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    Charles said:



    IANAL, but in my inexpert way I disagree about the wording of the will - it seems to me to be unclear either way. Is there a standard wording for cases where people want to bequeath their money to the state, or was the text what you would expect in that case?

    As I said, IANAL, so those are probably either stupid or irrelevant questions ...

    There is a very clear statement from her lawyers. Now, I suppose they may be lying, but there is no evidence to suggest that is the case.

    If we take a step back: this lady wanted to bequest her money in the way she decided. That decision is being ignored. That doesn't seem right to me.

    In a statement on Wednesday Davis Wood, the solicitors handling Miss Edwards's estate, said that when the will was drafted in 2001, they had checked with her "the unusual nature of her proposed bequest".

    "It was confirmed by Miss Edwards at the time of her instructions that her estate was to be left to whichever political party formed the government at the date of her death," they said.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23691209
    I'm minded to agree - see end of last thread. However the legalities of the situation are way beyond me.

    I used to think software and hardware specifications were hard to understand fully. Then I had to read and understand patents, and realised specifications were simple. Then I had to read legal documents, and went to sit on Trinity Backs with a bottle of wine. ;-0
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    So under Labour I will have to pay more tax so that benefit junkies can have a spare room ?

    #votewinner !

    You think it'll save money?

    And As Father couldn't even be arsed to understand it


    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-wrong-again-on-bedroom-tax-detail
    I'm sure Labour will not save money on anything ever.

    Voters don't like to see those on benefits living in bigger houses than they need whilst they have to graft just to afford a smaller place.

    Smarter Labourites have grasped this.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    I used to think software and hardware specifications were hard to understand fully. Then I had to read and understand patents, and realised specifications were simple. Then I had to read legal documents, and went to sit on Trinity Backs with a bottle of wine. ;-0

    Try registration dossiers...

    (although the most dense document I have read recently was a legal paper on whether supplementary protection should be granted to a patent. It turned on whether a strain or group of strains was an innovation...)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 1m

    Graham Stringer tells @bbc5live: "I'm even more worried now [about Labour] than I was on Sunday when I did the interview with the BBC."

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    From that Independent article Tim quoted/

    "Yet more than 19 out of 20 families hit by the bedroom tax are trapped in their larger homes because there is nowhere smaller within the local social housing stock to take them."

    Either pay up or move out to an area where there is suitable accommodation.

    That's what people who are struggling in the private sector who don;t qualify for welfare do all the time.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:

    There is a very clear statement from her lawyers. Now, I suppose they may be lying, but there is no evidence to suggest that is the case.

    If we take a step back: this lady wanted to bequest her money in the way she decided. That decision is being ignored. That doesn't seem right to me.

    In a statement on Wednesday Davis Wood, the solicitors handling Miss Edwards's estate, said that when the will was drafted in 2001, they had checked with her "the unusual nature of her proposed bequest".

    "It was confirmed by Miss Edwards at the time of her instructions that her estate was to be left to whichever political party formed the government at the date of her death," they said.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23691209

    What does not seem right to me is that the lawyers can make a very clear statement now, but they took money from this lady for drafting and executing her will, and failed completely to make her wishes clear in that will.

    There's a very clear difference between the "government" and the "party of government, and it is rank incompetence on the part of the solicitors when drafting her will.

    Given the fees that solicitors charge it's not too much to expect that they get something that simple right.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:
    I'm sure people will get the hang of paying up their fare share eventually - once the court summons drops through the letter box.


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    So under Labour I will have to pay more tax so that benefit junkies can have a spare room ?

    #votewinner !

    You think it'll save money?

    And As Father couldn't even be arsed to understand it


    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-wrong-again-on-bedroom-tax-detail
    I'm sure Labour will not save money on anything ever.

    Voters don't like to see those on benefits living in bigger houses than they need whilst they have to graft just to afford a smaller place.

    Smarter Labourites have grasped this.

    You realise the Tories are spending more on benefits than Labour,as they always do

    Not for the workshy.


  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Let's see what the Mail does with the story tomorrow.

    If the intent was to give it to political parties then the bequest was drafted very badly.

    Let's hope that none of the solicitors involved is a CON OR LD activist.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So thats the big comeback - reintroduce a spare room subsidy for the workshy ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What does not seem right to me is that the lawyers can make a very clear statement now, but they took money from this lady for drafting and executing her will, and failed completely to make her wishes clear in that will.

    There's a very clear difference between the "government" and the "party of government, and it is rank incompetence on the part of the solicitors when drafting her will.

    Given the fees that solicitors charge it's not too much to expect that they get something that simple right.

    It's not the clearest wording, but I would argue that there is a distinction between "the Government" and "whichever government is in office".

    "The Government" implies the state.

    "Whichever government is in office" is clearly distinct from the state. Especially since the solicitors spoke to them and clarified her intent.

    The Daily Mail is a confection of objectionable self-righteous arses.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I'm minded to agree - see end of last thread. However the legalities of the situation are way beyond me.

    I used to think software and hardware specifications were hard to understand fully. Then I had to read and understand patents, and realised specifications were simple. Then I had to read legal documents, and went to sit on Trinity Backs with a bottle of wine. ;-0

    My opinion on this has changed several times in the course of the day, as different bits of evidence have been revealed.

    It certainly does not encourage me to seek the assistance of a solicitor in drawing up a will.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Tim,
    I don;t see how you can simultaneously claim the government is spending more on the vulnerable and at the same time say what the government is doing is cruel and heartless.

    There's an essential lack of logic in what the left are saying. A bit like the undernourished children/fat children debate.

    One the one hand there are millions of rickety barefoot six year olds being used as chimney sweeps in Britain, but here's also an army of obese kids being exploited by uncaring multinationals.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Sky News Cameraman Killed In Egypt whilst reporting on Cairo violence.

    Holiday destination re-think would be a wise idea imho.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1128530/sky-news-cameraman-killed-in-egypt
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Why the sudden change hitting people who need a spare room to care for a disabled relative rather than paying someone else or relying on the state to do it?

    The disabled are being used as pawn by the much larger number of people who have extra space who aren't in this situation. Or rather by the people who purport to represent them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    Charles said:


    I used to think software and hardware specifications were hard to understand fully. Then I had to read and understand patents, and realised specifications were simple. Then I had to read legal documents, and went to sit on Trinity Backs with a bottle of wine. ;-0

    Try registration dossiers...

    (although the most dense document I have read recently was a legal paper on whether supplementary protection should be granted to a patent. It turned on whether a strain or group of strains was an innovation...)
    If you want real complexity, you should try what Mrs J does. Analogue RF is chip design with the few certainties of the digital domain removed. Basically, it's as near to magic as technology gets.

    Which gives me another opportunity to post the brilliant Britney Spears' Guide to Semiconductor Physics. (barely safe for work, either for the pictures of Ms Spears, or the hardcore equations within)
    http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm

    I can particularly recommend the page on my favourite topic, photolithography:
    http://britneyspears.ac/physics/fabrication/photolithography.htm
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    taffys said:

    Tim,
    I don;t see how you can simultaneously claim the government is spending more on the vulnerable and at the same time say what the government is doing is cruel and heartless.

    There's an essential lack of logic in what the left are saying. A bit like the undernourished children/fat children debate.

    Tim's been caught in a tidal wave on Bryant's 'Rivers of Blunder'.

    Just another sign of the headless chickens clucking and flapping as the Economy improves.

    They're disconnected and desperate.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    So under Labour I will have to pay more tax so that benefit junkies can have a spare room ?

    #votewinner !

    You think it'll save money?

    And As Father couldn't even be arsed to understand it


    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-wrong-again-on-bedroom-tax-detail
    I'm sure Labour will not save money on anything ever.

    Voters don't like to see those on benefits living in bigger houses than they need whilst they have to graft just to afford a smaller place.

    Smarter Labourites have grasped this.

    You realise the Tories are spending more on benefits than Labour,as they always do

    Not for the workshy.


    What your definition of the work shy is god only knows but we know Thatcher trebled benefit dependency and it peaked again under Major and Cameron.

    Housing benefit bill is up by how much since 2010?
    Wait - so reintroducing a subsidy for spare rooms will cut the HB bill ?

    Why didn't Labour support the benefit cap ? Will they reverse that ?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Just another sign of the headless chickens clucking and flapping as the Economy improves.

    They're disconnected and desperate.

    @hopisen
    If our strategy is to hold off on policy news until Leader's speech to maximise impact, why is someone briefing @georgeeaton on them now?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited August 2013
    Charles said:

    What does not seem right to me is that the lawyers can make a very clear statement now, but they took money from this lady for drafting and executing her will, and failed completely to make her wishes clear in that will.

    There's a very clear difference between the "government" and the "party of government, and it is rank incompetence on the part of the solicitors when drafting her will.

    Given the fees that solicitors charge it's not too much to expect that they get something that simple right.

    It's not the clearest wording, but I would argue that there is a distinction between "the Government" and "whichever government is in office".

    "The Government" implies the state.

    "Whichever government is in office" is clearly distinct from the state. Especially since the solicitors spoke to them and clarified her intent.
    I see the words "is in office" as being superfluous. There are not two or more governments, with one in office, and others in opposition, or exile.

    Since the will does not specify the beneficiary as being the party of government, then one could just as easily interpret it as intending to benefit the individuals who are members of the government, and divide the bequest between government ministers.

    After all, constitutionally, it is the individuals who are in office as part of the government, rather than the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, as such.

    This is why I attached so much importance to the question of whether the word "party" had been used in the will, when I made my first comment on this matter this morning.
  • Presumably there is a written record of the exchanges that took place between the solicitors and the lady back in 2001. Given it happened 12 years ago it's quite possible the relevant lawyers are no longer with the firm and/or have misremembered. But whatever else it is extraordinary that the will was not drafted more carefully so that there was absolutely no room for doubt.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 30m
    Ed Miliband's "cost of living crisis" sound bite undermined by demonstration that eggs are cheap
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Presumably there is a written record of the exchanges that took place between the solicitors and the lady back in 2001. Given it happened 12 years ago it's quite possible the relevant lawyers are no longer with the firm and/or have misremembered. But whatever else it is extraordinary that the will was not drafted more carefully so that there was absolutely no room for doubt.

    You really are desperate to give this legs, aren't you?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed has swiftly and decisively put Andy Burnham back in his box

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10242691/Ed-Miliband-rejects-Burnham-warning-Labour-must-shout-louder.html

    So Andy will just keep quiet now, right?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Good day for Ed Omelettiband
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Ed has swiftly and decisively put Andy Burnham back in his box

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10242691/Ed-Miliband-rejects-Burnham-warning-Labour-must-shout-louder.html

    So Andy will just keep quiet now, right?

    "The Labour leader insisted he and his colleagues had been talking about the "fundamental issues" that affect people's lives, such high rail fares and energy bills."

    "If you just take this area of the cost of living crisis. Have Labour got answers? Absolutely we've got answers - on rail fares, on energy prices, on payday lenders, on a fairer tax system.

    "That's what we are going to be talking about in the coming months," he said."


    Hmm - so they are secret - once the Buddha awakes from his trantric meditation it will all become clear.

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:


    Hmm - so they are secret - once the Buddha awakes from his trantric meditation it will all become clear.

    Yes, they are secret.

    Apart from the subsidy for spare rooms for the workshy. That's a definite winner.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    OT. Talking to people in Edinburgh I'd say the referendum vote is far from won. I haven't yet met anyone who thinks it won't be close. The two overriding factors seem to be Salmond's popularity and a dislike of Tory governments at Westminster. I reckon even money maybe even better than that if Cameron looks set for victory.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    The Osborne fans on here care to explain this?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/


    Bubble policy sending UK debt financing up, now way above France

    Short selling by squirrels ?

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    OT. Talking to people in Edinburgh I'd say the referendum vote is far from won. I haven't yet met anyone who thinks it won't be close. The two overriding factors seem to be Salmond's popularity and a dislike of Tory governments at Westminster. I reckon even money maybe even better than that if Cameron looks set for victory.

    I presume you'll take the 9/2 then?

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics-and-election/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Since there is always a "government in office", the "whichever" in the will must imply whichever party is in office.

    determiner & pronoun

    used to emphasize a lack of restriction in selecting one of a definite set of alternatives: [as determiner]:choose whichever brand you prefer

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/whichever
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    taffys said:

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something

    They were extortionate before 2010 and Labour did flock all about it.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    Having had a good 2012 Miliband appears to be struggling with 2013
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @JJ

    Definately
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,191
    edited August 2013
    tim said:

    The Osborne fans on here care to explain this?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/


    Bubble policy sending UK debt financing up, now way above France

    The obvious explanation is that the market expects base rates to increase in the UK more rapidly than they will in France. This will be because the UK is exepcted to outperform the EZ over the next year or so allowing, indeed requiring, the gradual return to more normal levels of interest rates to control inflation.

    Because they think that base rates will increase they need a higher rate of return on their gilts to avoid a capital loss. Think of it as a vote of confidence in the UK recovery.

    The EZ in contrast, still has a much poorer outlook despite this morning's figures so their rates will likely remain unchanged for longer. Hopefully their figures will also pick up soon at which point their gilt rates will pick up as well.

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Presumably there is a written record of the exchanges that took place between the solicitors and the lady back in 2001. Given it happened 12 years ago it's quite possible the relevant lawyers are no longer with the firm and/or have misremembered. But whatever else it is extraordinary that the will was not drafted more carefully so that there was absolutely no room for doubt.


    Not extraordinary, there are lots of crap lawyers out there.

    It is very very difficult to get the court to consider extrinsic evidence when construing a document like a will.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,191
    taffys said:

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something

    The pricing structure for railway tickets is a national disgrace. It is ridiculously over complicated and must inhibit the use of rail. Those who turn up at short notice are simply fleeced.

    My latest grump was returning from the cricket on Sunday. To go on an earlier train than the one I had booked was going to cost me more than the original ticket. Hopefully that is my last use of the railways this year.

    The more general uplift in the world economy is likely to cause a further uplift in energy prices. Further delays in fracking are simply not acceptable and will result in some poor, old people dying of the cold.

  • Presumably there is a written record of the exchanges that took place between the solicitors and the lady back in 2001. Given it happened 12 years ago it's quite possible the relevant lawyers are no longer with the firm and/or have misremembered. But whatever else it is extraordinary that the will was not drafted more carefully so that there was absolutely no room for doubt.

    You really are desperate to give this legs, aren't you?

    Obviously that is what you would like to believe. But you may wish to refer back to my postings on the matter in the previous thread in which I said that any reasonable person would conclude that the Tories and the LDs took the money in good faith.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    taffys said:

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something

    Government action is a contributory factor in utility price increases.

  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited August 2013
    Regarding the comments below and on previous thread about the quality of Wills being written the following came from a Legal Services Board investigation in 2011 "Understanding the consumer experience of will-writing services."

    "Approximately one-quarter of all wills collected failed the assessment, primarily because they were deemed to be of insufficient quality (that is, they failed to meet the needs and circumstances of the client) and less frequently because they were deemed not to be legally valid. There was little difference between solicitors and specialist will-writers in terms of the proportion of wills that failed, while the proportion of fails among self-completion wills was considerably higher."
    Lessons:
    1. Get someone competent in Will Writing and not a generalist lawyer.
    2. Do not do it yourself.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    taffys said:

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something

    Government action is a contributory factor in utility price increases.

    Indeed - now who has been running the Dept of Energy and so called "climate change" ?



  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    TGOHF said:

    taffys said:

    Rail fares, threatening illegal gas bill caps and wagging fingers at wonga - hardly a revolution ?

    NO, but labour has a point here. Rail fares are absolutely extortionate and utility prices are soaring.

    The government will have to do something

    Government action is a contributory factor in utility price increases.

    Indeed - now who has been running the Dept of Energy and so called "climate change" ?



    You having a go at crooked Huhne or Ed Miliband?

This discussion has been closed.