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  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Last week the PB lefties told us that pay rises were a bad thing.

    Or did that only apply only to agricultural workers ?

    Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    It is a troubling case but if she is writing to MPs, plural, surely at least all but one of them will reply by directing her to her own MP? Isn't that how the system works?
    Nick might know more, but I've read stories in the past where an MP will get involved even if the complainant isn't in his/her constituency, especially when they are campaigning on an issue. I suppose it'd be polite to tell the constituent's MP you're getting involved, though.

    It just shows the woman's desperation to get justice.
    It's possible for other MPs to get involved if they wish to (I once helped a constiuent of George Galloway when he ignored her request for advice and she wrote to me as I was chair of a relevant all-party medical group) but because of workload the default is to say sorry, you need to go to your MP.
    Thanks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    It is a troubling case but if she is writing to MPs, plural, surely at least all but one of them will reply by directing her to her own MP? Isn't that how the system works?
    It is also slightly puzzling that doctors appear not to have corrected what sounds like a botched circumcision (which itself sounds like it should be barely harder than cutting toenails, so was the operation actually done by a doctor in the first place?).
    "barely harder than cutting toenails"

    Are you serious? IMO male circumcision for religious reasons is child abuse.
    Leaving that question aside, my comment was that it does not seem (to this non-expert) a technically difficult procedure. If separating conjoined twins is at one end of the scale of surgical complexity, and cutting toenails is at the other, then surely male circumcision is close to the latter end. Yet from the description in the story, it sounds like something went wrong.
    I don't know if you're circumcised or not, but if you are not, I would submit you'd be much more concerned about getting a circumcision that you would having your toenails cut.

    And things often go wrong with circumcisions.

    As a Jewish friend of mine at Uni said to me: "What the hell gave my parents the right to do that to me?"
    You are talking about whether it is desirable or is even abuse. I am not. Putting all moral, religious and aesthetic issues to one side, and even the legal ones about parental consent, it still sounds from the story that this comparatively simple operation was botched (and did not seem to have been corrected afterwards).
    So you're ignoring all the glaring, major issues with this case?

    Okkkay ...

    You made the comparison with cutting toenails. That argument is just so patently ridiculous I'm amazed you're not ashamed to write it.
    Cutting toenails is easy. So is circumcision. For centuries the operation has been carried out by laymen....
    As has FGM. That doesn't make it either safe or acceptable.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    I think she'll hang on as Jeremy and co turn a potential victory into a complete shambles. The man is hopeless. He's 'Chance the Gardener'. Funny like Eddie the Eagle was funny.

    ......But the facts haven't changed.......

    He's got the weakest shadow cabinet Labour has ever had. He has a party who largely think he's a clown. He has a henchman who is seen as dangerous. He needs the complete support of at least three other parties to even make a dent.

    Though it would be funny to have Corbyn government it's not going to happen. This is their high water mark and if I had to guess I'd say Labour will fall apart before May's government does. The best that progressives can hope for is that Brexit falls apart which is quite likely
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And what about government statisticians? Won't somebody think of the stattos?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    BJO. Astroturfing here makes no sense. You're not going to change anyone's mind or shame anyone.

    As an aside, I keep seeing these sanctimonious 'Tories voted against nice fluffy things thus they must be NASTY NASTY NASTY'. Doesn't it insult the intelligence of the intended audience, and miss the point that to win an election they need to get Tory switchers...

    It's precisely because the vast majority of Tories are good, decent people (just like the vast majority of Labour supporters) that posters such as that one are going to work.

    Shame on those who reduce confidence motions (for that is what amendments on the QS basically are) to an excuse for virtue signalling.

    Seriously, I expected better of you.

    I admire the virtues you are signalling - you are tough, pragmatic and prepared to make the hard calls. Such virtues. I wish I could be as virtuous as you.
    Nah. I just understand parliamentary procedure.
    But apparently not politics.

    The cheering, in the circumstances, might be understandable, but is politically self defeating - and makes the emotive case against the pay freeze stronger.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    Nigelb said:

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    It is a troubling case but if she is writing to MPs, plural, surely at least all but one of them will reply by directing her to her own MP? Isn't that how the system works?
    It is also slightly puzzling that doctors appear not to have corrected what sounds like a botched circumcision (which itself sounds like it should be barely harder than cutting toenails, so was the operation actually done by a doctor in the first place?).
    "barely harder than cutting toenails"

    Are you serious? IMO male circumcision for religious reasons is child abuse.
    Leaving that question aside, my comment was that it does not seem (to this non-expert) a technically difficult procedure. If separating conjoined twins is at one end of the scale of surgical complexity, and cutting toenails is at the other, then surely male circumcision is close to the latter end. Yet from the description in the story, it sounds like something went wrong.
    I don't know if you're circumcised or not, but if you are not, I would submit you'd be much more concerned about getting a circumcision that you would having your toenails cut.

    And things often go wrong with circumcisions.

    As a Jewish friend of mine at Uni said to me: "What the hell gave my parents the right to do that to me?"
    You are talking about whether it is desirable or is even abuse. I am not. Putting all moral, religious and aesthetic issues to one side, and even the legal ones about parental consent, it still sounds from the story that this comparatively simple operation was botched (and did not seem to have been corrected afterwards).
    So you're ignoring all the glaring, major issues with this case?

    Okkkay ...

    You made the comparison with cutting toenails. That argument is just so patently ridiculous I'm amazed you're not ashamed to write it.
    Cutting toenails is easy. So is circumcision. For centuries the operation has been carried out by laymen....
    As has FGM. That doesn't make it either safe or acceptable.
    DecrepitJohnL's position is so nonsensical I fear he is trolling.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971

    GeoffM said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is a nonsense article. Precisely how it will work will not be known until the deal is agreed with the EU. It's not in Davis' power to decide on his own.
    The "Institute for Government" is a lefty David Sainsbury funded front group, so this is safe to file away as partisan.

    Yep - file away under stuff I do not like so will ignore. That does seem to be the David Davis approach. Problem is, the stuff does not go away.

    David Handwaving Davis.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And if you don't like it, the way to respond is with reasoned argument.
    Cheering in the commons for a pay freeze is just imbecilic.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,885
    edited June 2017

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is a nonsense article. Precisely how it will work will not be known until the deal is agreed with the EU. It's not in Davis' power to decide on his own.

    The issue is he does not know how it works now. He is winging it.

    Everyone I’ve come across who has some idea of how ‘their’ industtry has developed over the last 45 or so years, plus how it now works is worried.

    ‘It’ll be all right on the night’ often works in entertainment but I know of very few occasions when something ‘industrial' worked perfectly first time. Tommy Flowers and the Colossus at Blecthley Park provides one of the few examples.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    I do agree though that the Tories cheering is risible, they really are a dreadful group of people who only have themselves to blame for bringing such disdain upon themselves.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Leaving aside the political aspect for a moment, I do urge people to hear the interview. Really remarkable. I hope he gets an appropriate medal.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Last week the PB lefties told us that pay rises were a bad thing.

    Or did that only apply only to agricultural workers ?

    Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Could you stop posting in such an offensive manner
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    edited June 2017
    tlg86 said:

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And what about government statisticians? Won't somebody think of the stattos?
    It would be nice to have lists of which professions are deserving and which are undeserving.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Male circumcision is one of those cultural and religious mores like others before it that will be further challenged and probably become socially unacceptable and likely banned in due course.

    The shocking cases of FGM has certainly weakened the case for male circumcision or MGM as it probably should be termed. But for religious sensitivities it's impossible to justify carrying out unnecessary medical procedures on infants by unqualified practitioners that too often leads to further treatment being required and on rare occasions death.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Leaving aside the political aspect for a moment, I do urge people to hear the interview. Really remarkable. I hope he gets an appropriate medal.
    I agree, it is remarkable. An incredibly brave man.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    Well put Sir, every day public sector workers do remarkable things, to use each remarkable thing to justify a pay rise is crazy.

    Unfortunately the Tory response simply fans the flames, and once again they scratch their heads and wonder why they are so reviled in certain areas.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    My uncle was shot and killed receiving a QPM for his service back in the late 70s. Now my mum was clearly was out campaigning for the Conservatives so the police can be denied pay increases.
    The Tories have said they'll look at it, and Labour's amendment was a confidence issue to the Queens speech
    The Conservatives could have pulled the same trick had Jez got 25 more seats, he'd have voted down a police pay rise too..................

    We can have a go at the Tories for alot of things, voting down this bill isn't one of them. Jesus.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    A man went into a shop on Stamford hill and asked for a bag of potatoes

    'I'm sorry but I don't sell potatoes. I'm a mohel'

    'Well why the hell have you got potatoes in your window?'

    'Well what do want me to put in my window?'
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    Or it could be left ... as a tip :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited June 2017

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    Personally I would give public sector workers an inflation linked pay rise for a year or two after years of just 1% rises or pay caps but no more, given average wage rises have fallen to 1.7% slightly below inflation at 2.9% a bigger increase would be too much
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0f9d3b98-50e1-11e7-bfb8-997009366969
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Last week the PB lefties told us that pay rises were a bad thing.

    Or did that only apply only to agricultural workers ?

    Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Could you stop posting in such an offensive manner
    Mike

    Is it possible that you could put the donate button back on the site - I feel I should make a small donation from my election winnings.

    I hope that's not too offensive :wink:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    I can't argue with that.
    Have you thought of applying to join the Tory front bench, Mr.D ? The capacity to make sensible cases to the public for their policies seems to be beyond many of the current lot.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    Nigelb said:

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And if you don't like it, the way to respond is with reasoned argument.
    Cheering in the commons for a pay freeze is just imbecilic.
    Indeed, and then politicians wonder why they're viewed with such contempt.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,497
    DavidL said:

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Leaving aside the political aspect for a moment, I do urge people to hear the interview. Really remarkable. I hope he gets an appropriate medal.
    I agree, it is remarkable. An incredibly brave man.
    That was my reaction. He was incredibly impressive.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,355
    DavidL said:

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Leaving aside the political aspect for a moment, I do urge people to hear the interview. Really remarkable. I hope he gets an appropriate medal.
    I agree, it is remarkable. An incredibly brave man.
    I do wonder about his training. A side-handled baton should be a lethal weapon, if used the the right way. But an incredibly brave man and he deserves a GC or something.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.

    What the government needs is some sort of positive vision for the future.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Spreadsheet Phil is the only sane person on that list. Sad times for the Tory party and this country.

    Not a fun of Davidson? :p
    There's something of the attention seeker about her. I can see the gaffes and contradictions coming thick and fast if she ever gets some real power.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    edited June 2017
    Mr. B, ha. I'm in want of work. If a political party should like to hire me, I'm available.

    Edited extra bit: and thank you for the kind words, and to Mr. Choose likewise.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Roger said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    A man went into a shop on Stamford hill and asked for a bag of potatoes

    'I'm sorry but I don't sell potatoes. I'm a mohel'

    'Well why the hell have you got potatoes in your window?'

    'Well what do want me to put in my window?'
    My Jewish wife sometimes says that she loves me because she can't resist anything that's got 10% off/
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    BJO. Astroturfing here makes no sense. You're not going to change anyone's mind or shame anyone.

    As an aside, I keep seeing these sanctimonious 'Tories voted against nice fluffy things thus they must be NASTY NASTY NASTY'. Doesn't it insult the intelligence of the intended audience, and miss the point that to win an election they need to get Tory switchers...

    It's precisely because the vast majority of Tories are good, decent people (just like the vast majority of Labour supporters) that posters such as that one are going to work.

    Shame on those who reduce confidence motions (for that is what amendments on the QS basically are) to an excuse for virtue signalling.

    Seriously, I expected better of you.

    I admire the virtues you are signalling - you are tough, pragmatic and prepared to make the hard calls. Such virtues. I wish I could be as virtuous as you.
    For some, the degree of pb Toryness is itself an exercise in virtue signalling isn't it?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.

    What the government needs is some sort of positive vision for the future.
    Yes. They need to find something hopeful, and not cheer about keeping people's wage increases below inflation as if the public sector were asking for a kick in the nuts.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    My uncle was shot and killed receiving a QPM for his service back in the late 70s. .....

    I'm sure you didn't mean to imply the Queen took out a revolver at the investiture and did the wicked deed !!

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    Nigelb said:

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And if you don't like it, the way to respond is with reasoned argument.
    Cheering in the commons for a pay freeze is just imbecilic.
    Indeed, and then politicians wonder why they're viewed with such contempt.

    Yes - this was precisely the point. Do it with regret, if you have to do it; but do not cheer it from the rafters.

  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    Pulpstar said:

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    My uncle was shot and killed receiving a QPM for his service back in the late 70s. Now my mum was clearly was out campaigning for the Conservatives so the police can be denied pay increases.
    The Tories have said they'll look at it, and Labour's amendment was a confidence issue to the Queens speech
    The Conservatives could have pulled the same trick had Jez got 25 more seats, he'd have voted down a police pay rise too..................

    We can have a go at the Tories for alot of things, voting down this bill isn't one of them. Jesus.
    Yes, it was a confidence issue so of course the Tories were right to vote against it. The cheering doesn't help their case however, they have fallen into Labour's trap. Everyone cheers and boos in the house of commons but it just makes them look like arseholes to the outside world. It is very easy now for Labour to portray this as "Tories cheering as they reject Labour's save the world amendment".

    I have no doubt that the Tories would have snuck in a "commitment to responsible public spending" amendment if it was Corbyn going for the QS so no sympathy with them.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    edited June 2017

    Scott_P said:

    Davis is totally winging it ...

    So far he is not up to the task. An ambassador from a senior member state, who has been briefed on how Davis is viewed by the EU now, has a crushing verdict: “He is part of the problem. He doesn’t know the dossiers well. His style is arrogant, he is full of bluster.” A European insider says Davis appears to have an inflated, jingoistic faith in Britain’s influence which is not going to play out well. “He’s going to be humiliated again and again by the EU, as he was in the first week. How will someone as vain as Davis explain that?.” Even a senior Tory peer and Brexiteer is worried by his performance so far: “I am, frankly, scared. I’d be surprised if it all went right now.”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/davis-is-a-dangerous-driver-of-the-brexit-bus-xshs7h7rj

    AA Gill was a seer...

    Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

    Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”


    http://dndlaw.com/aa-gill-on-brexit/

    Davis is winging it. He has a religious faith in Brexit and believes nothing else is necessary. On 29th March 2019 the Lord will come down and deliver a promised land, so why bother looking at documents and understanding how things work now?

    Brilliant, the hard Brexiters in a sentence. Throw of the shackles of Human Rights and all will be milk and honey. Let's not bother with the detail. Brexit is Lord Flash from Blackadder, no more no less.





  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

    You appear addicted to emotive virtue signalling.

    Everybody agrees the emergency services are brave and indispensible, as are nurses and teachers, but somebody sometime has to cost and fund their pay structure. What we have now is tribal fools on one side making emotive noises and tribal fools on the other side cheering.

    Grow up the lot of you.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    It really is a bad look to be voting against giving people like this hero a pay rise. Cheering when you do it is bonkers ...
    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880122717495861256

    Leaving aside the political aspect for a moment, I do urge people to hear the interview. Really remarkable. I hope he gets an appropriate medal.
    I think there's a fuller interview which is even better.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.

    What the government needs is some sort of positive vision for the future.
    Yep that is what was completely missing from the election campaign which is why May didn't get a majority. I fear, however, that her vision is one where the paperwork is done just that bit more efficiently than it is at the moment. Useful, certainly, but somewhat short of inspiration.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    Morning all :)

    The issue of pay for "blue light" workers has been a problem for some time. It's not a question of whether they are "deserving" but a simpler question of recruitment and retention. If there are levels of Police, Fire and Ambulance that are deemed to be required, these must be adequately resourced.

    Of course, you can start from the basis that you can have as many policemen, fire and rescue personnel and paramedics as you want or are willing to pay for and there are huge debates over appropriate levels of "cover" and how that should be manifested in terms of public visibility but that's an operational issue.

    It's not always but pay either - providing suitable accommodation is perhaps the bigger issue. Apart from site accommodation such as Police Section houses or watch accommodation at fire stations, there needs to be a recognition that you are employing both the person and their family unit and perhaps we need to improve the provision of affordable housing for key public sector workers.

    One initiative has been the use of property guardians and it's no surprise a large proportion of those seeking accommodation through guardian companies are NHS workers. I know of a couple of larger councils who have used property guardians at sites no longer required or suitable for operational use.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GeoffM said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    Or it could be left ... as a tip :)
    :smiley:

    As a tip it would have to be accurately measured to ensure it was 10% of the original. Would Sean Fear be happy dropping his pants in a public bar ?!? ..... again ..... :sunglasses:

    OTOH if the next PB meet was in Soho he might attract some admiring glances, especially as Sean is a lawyer and therefore would only be undertaking some soliciting !!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

    You appear addicted to emotive virtue signalling.

    Everybody agrees the emergency services are brave and indispensible, as are nurses and teachers, but somebody sometime has to cost and fund their pay structure. What we have now is tribal fools on one side making emotive noises and tribal fools on the other side cheering.

    Grow up the lot of you.

    I see that you are signalling your virtue is to be grown-up and to be able to ignore emotion in order to make the tough calls. Thanks for sharing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,885
    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    A man went into a shop on Stamford hill and asked for a bag of potatoes

    'I'm sorry but I don't sell potatoes. I'm a mohel'

    'Well why the hell have you got potatoes in your window?'

    'Well what do want me to put in my window?'
    My Jewish wife sometimes says that she loves me because she can't resist anything that's got 10% off/
    I’ve come across some boastful men, but 10% off!!!!!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Nigelb said:

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And if you don't like it, the way to respond is with reasoned argument.
    Cheering in the commons for a pay freeze is just imbecilic.
    Indeed, and then politicians wonder why they're viewed with such contempt.

    Yes - this was precisely the point. Do it with regret, if you have to do it; but do not cheer it from the rafters.

    Sounds like my take on killing animals when people discuss the jolly nice day out that is fox hunting
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

    You appear addicted to emotive virtue signalling.

    Everybody agrees the emergency services are brave and indispensible, as are nurses and teachers, but somebody sometime has to cost and fund their pay structure. What we have now is tribal fools on one side making emotive noises and tribal fools on the other side cheering.

    Grow up the lot of you.

    I see that you are signalling your virtue is to be grown-up and to be able to ignore emotion in order to make the tough calls. Thanks for sharing.
    No problem at all, facebook is for emotion, parliament is about making difficult decisions that not everybody agrees with.

    We know how much you care, you tell us every day, leave the decision making to those who who don't resort to yah boo and cheering, unfortunately they're thin on the ground.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

    You appear addicted to emotive virtue signalling.

    Everybody agrees the emergency services are brave and indispensible, as are nurses and teachers, but somebody sometime has to cost and fund their pay structure. What we have now is tribal fools on one side making emotive noises and tribal fools on the other side cheering.

    Grow up the lot of you.
    Market forces are affecting recruitment and retention adversely across pretty much all grades in the NHS, where there has been a 1% cap for a decade or so already. With inflation picking up that 1% cap becomes even more untenable.

    Around 5-10% of nursing or medical posts are unfilled at present, depending on speciality. Money is not the only issue of course, conditions, rotas, workload and attitudes like yours all add to the reason people vote with their feet by leaving. Market forces similarly affect other public services. They have been running on empty for too long already.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Here's a thought, perhaps we should transfer Parliament to Glastonbury, after all the two seem to be merging into one another.

    We'll put Jon Snow in charge.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    Nigelb said:

    "Altogether now with the PB lefties:

    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers
    Higher pay for public sector workers, lower pay for private sector workers"

    And all the while they forget that the latter fund the former.

    The poster about firemen and cheering is everything wrong with politics today, no substance, figures or reasoning, just emotive aimed at the hard of thinking. What about nurses, teachers, ambulancemen etc, how much should they get?

    And if you don't like it, the way to respond is with reasoned argument.
    Cheering in the commons for a pay freeze is just imbecilic.
    Indeed, and then politicians wonder why they're viewed with such contempt.

    Yes - this was precisely the point. Do it with regret, if you have to do it; but do not cheer it from the rafters.

    Conservative politicians seem to have learnt little from the last month.

    Its rather depressing and does not bode well for the fundamental issues which need to be addressed.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    GeoffM said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    Or it could be left ... as a tip :)
    Or donated to this place?
    http://phallus.is/en/

    (Perhaps NSFW)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Good Morning To All Complete Pricks Of PB Worldwide :

    'My son was circumcised without my consent'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511

    This should make for an interesting and potentially useful case.

    "I wrote to MPs and they basically shoved me off. Everybody you speak to it's like speaking to a brick wall."

    She should name and shame the MPs.

    Is it bad of me to find this story funny?
    Yes.

    You're a very bad man and should cleave off your todger in an appropriate mea culpa and send the offending member to the next PB drinks where it will served as a tasty morsel to the assembled court of public opinion.
    A man went into a shop on Stamford hill and asked for a bag of potatoes

    'I'm sorry but I don't sell potatoes. I'm a mohel'

    'Well why the hell have you got potatoes in your window?'

    'Well what do want me to put in my window?'
    My Jewish wife sometimes says that she loves me because she can't resist anything that's got 10% off/
    Hopefully your wife is better able to resist buy one get one free or worse still 50% off !!!!!!!!!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mr. Observer, that policeman is clearly a hero, and deserves to be recognised in the honours list.

    Using one man to dictate the approach to millions, however, is demented. By that logic, we'd look at the London bridge attacks and ban Muslims. Or look at Harold Shipman, and ban doctors.

    He was doing what we would expect all policemen to do in such circumstances. Just as we would expect firefighters to run to a fire and ambulance staff to drive into a catastrophe. We strike a bargain: members of the emergency services agree to put themselves on the line when the time comes, we agree to ensure they enjoy a decent standard of living that does not drop.

    You appear addicted to emotive virtue signalling.

    Everybody agrees the emergency services are brave and indispensible, as are nurses and teachers, but somebody sometime has to cost and fund their pay structure. What we have now is tribal fools on one side making emotive noises and tribal fools on the other side cheering.

    Grow up the lot of you.
    Market forces are affecting recruitment and retention adversely across pretty much all grades in the NHS, where there has been a 1% cap for a decade or so already. With inflation picking up that 1% cap becomes even more untenable.

    Around 5-10% of nursing or medical posts are unfilled at present, depending on speciality. Money is not the only issue of course, conditions, rotas, workload and attitudes like yours all add to the reason people vote with their feet by leaving. Market forces similarly affect other public services. They have been running on empty for too long already.
    Attitudes like mine?

    I want politicians to stop cheering, therefore I'm responsible for unfilled vacancies in NHS. You talk more bollox every day.

    Your point about people voting with their feet is the only sane one you make, you can NEVER buck the market, despite what you tell me all the time. Its why you're planning on emigrating and abandoning the lifeboat you care so much about.

    "Pay me more money or I'll leave" is your motto, what a humble Liberal Democrat you are.

  • Last night might have been the moment the Tories finally lost the next election. They really need to start moving in the right direction soon if they are to avoid this.

    I think they were fully right not to allow the QS to be amended by a badge-wearing stunt. But the optics of the glee in which they held down the pay of millions of their own voters was awful.

    They also showed just how this current front bench cannot get ANYTHING right.

    It also meant that when the cap is lifted, they will get no credit. Indeed, it will be reported on as a defeat for the Government.

    May is just a simply terrible leader of a rather poor team.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    DavidL said:

    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
    Would you like me to list all the times David Davis viewed ID cards as the spawn of Satan?

    Remember that by election ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited June 2017
    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will prewhesent.

    John Major won in 1992 against the odds and despite a recession after 13 years of the Tories in power when Kinnock expected to win on his second attempt, much as Corbyn does now, Major won 41.9% and held almost all the 42% who voted for Thatcher in 1987, given 42% voted for May in 2017 the Tories in 2022 need to do the same
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited June 2017

    David Davis is such a hypocrite too as well as an inept.

    twitter.com/alantravis40/status/880334138833858560
    twitter.com/alantravis40/status/880123582961131525

    Do not worry Mr Eagles - it is not like he has been given an important job in govt.

    :D:D:D:D
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    DavidL said:

    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
    I've still never really understood why people are so against ID cards at all in the UK. As you say, most other countries in Europe manage with them, without turning into totalitarian surveillance states. The government should really just bring them in for everyone. It's also a big part of why so many Calais migrants try to get in to the UK - no ID checks once you are inside.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    AA GIll said:


    Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty.

    A perfect summary IMO. :)

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    DavidL said:

    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.

    What the government needs is some sort of positive vision for the future.
    Yep that is what was completely missing from the election campaign which is why May didn't get a majority. I fear, however, that her vision is one where the paperwork is done just that bit more efficiently than it is at the moment. Useful, certainly, but somewhat short of inspiration.
    Better management would suffice as long as people think things are on the right path and that the good things are going to arrive at some point.

    But there's too many people ** who think things are on the wrong path and want change not better management. They need to be offered a positive vision and hope for the future. May seems incapable of that.

    ** young people especially and rightly so.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Give politicians a break. Have you ever seen a government vote of this magnitude that isn't cheered by the winners?

    I'd have thought here if all places would be immune to such guffery as criticising politicians for parliamentary convention.

    Those who criticise the standard of parliamentarians should take a look at themselves - the standard of echo chambered discourse outside of it is far, far worse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
    Would you like me to list all the times David Davis viewed ID cards as the spawn of Satan?

    Remember that by election ?
    Yes, he's an arse and the party dodged a bullet when he was comprehensively defeated by Cameron. Hopefully his time has passed. But the idea that the EU are going to get their knickers in a twist about this is pretty far fetched.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    BJO. Astroturfing here makes no sense. You're not going to change anyone's mind or shame anyone.

    As an aside, I keep seeing these sanctimonious 'Tories voted against nice fluffy things thus they must be NASTY NASTY NASTY'. Doesn't it insult the intelligence of the intended audience, and miss the point that to win an election they need to get Tory switchers...

    It's precisely because the vast majority of Tories are good, decent people (just like the vast majority of Labour supporters) that posters such as that one are going to work.

    Shame on those who reduce confidence motions (for that is what amendments on the QS basically are) to an excuse for virtue signalling.

    Seriously, I expected better of you.
    Oh it was definitely an amendment that was doomed to fail because of how and when it was presented. If Labour had truly wanted to lobby for a lift of the cap a few quiet words might have worked in the good of the people they represent. I'm sure the DUP and a lot of Tories have sympathy for the lifting of the cap given inflation.

    But they wanted a political stunt. And as that, it worked thanks to the front bench glee.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Fletcher, indeed. From reports (didn't see it live), there's an alarming lack of intelligence on display.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Re ID cards

    Does anyone with a driving licence ever not go out without it in their wallets or purses?

    Its an ID card already
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    HYUFD said:


    John Major won in 1992 against the odds and despite a recession after 13 years of the Tories in power when Kinnock expected to win on his second attempt, much as Corbyn does now, Major won 41% and held almost all the 42% who voted for Thatcher in 1987 given 42% voted for May in 2017 the Tories in 2022 need to do the same

    I expected one of the Conservative members and supporters to come back on this and I wasn't disappointed.

    There is the key difference that Margaret Thatcher was deposed by her own backbenchers in November 1990. What the Conservatives therefore need to do is overthrow May in 2019 or 2020 and hope a new person will recapture the vote. The problem is May isn't Thatcher in 1987 - May is already a busted flush, you know that, I know that, most of the Conservative Party knows it.

    There are other reasons why the 87-92 parallel doesn't work - in 1987 the Conservatives had a majority of 101. That was reduced to 21 (or so) in 1992 so if we take a similar 40-seat loss to Labour next time that doesn't end so well.

    Relying on vote share only gets you so far - the Conservatives polled 42% and were hammered by Labour in 1966 while Labour won more votes but still lost in 1951. Yes, the Conservatives could go up a tiny amount and get a majority - they could go down a small amount and not be able to form a government.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Incidentally, last night's BBC news had a worthy segment on domestic violence, but one would've imagined it was a crime committed solely by men and of which victims are exclusively female.

    I hope some balance is introduced into the coverage. It'd be interesting to know how many of the nearly 300 refuge shelters accept men, for example.

    On a similar note, the Disrespect Nobody [think that's the name] TV ad campaign has re-emerged, in which only women must be asked for consent, and in which coercion or abuse is a thing done by men to women.

    Imagine if articles on suicide only ever covered the male perspective. People would rightly cry foul, even though there's a greater proportion of male suicide than there is female victimhood in domestic violence.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    stodge said:


    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    There are High Streets with 12-14 bookies on them ???

    One thing which has surprised me is that the number of betting shops has increased - I would have thought that with internet betting they would have fallen.

    Though, personally, I would be quite happy to see fewer betting shops and likewise fewer coffee shops, pound shops and general cheap tat shops. With the property thus freed up redeveloped for residential use.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
    I've still never really understood why people are so against ID cards at all in the UK. As you say, most other countries in Europe manage with them, without turning into totalitarian surveillance states. The government should really just bring them in for everyone. It's also a big part of why so many Calais migrants try to get in to the UK - no ID checks once you are inside.
    The reality for most adults is that the photo ID driving licence serves the same function. I think there is also an underlying principle that you are not accountable to functionaries of the state and required to produce your papers but I find it hard to get excited about it personally.

    I carry a Court pass which allows me through security in Courts without my bags being searched and into prisons (and more importantly out again). Would I have fewer rights if I had to carry an ID card? Struggle to see it.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    saddo said:

    Re ID cards

    Does anyone with a driving licence ever not go out without it in their wallets or purses?

    Its an ID card already

    Yes, I never carry my driving licence or passport. If you are stopped and asked to show your licence you can take it to a police station within a few days.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    Morning all. I'm off to have blood extracted from me by a nurse in a bit. I'll probably not mention pay restraint to her before she sucks me dry.
    The point of course has now been made. The opposition can run the government close on key issues. The government and their honourable friends have to actively turn up and oppose such amendments. That is to say they have to justify not doing what would be popular and, one might argue, right. The election result is worse for them than a narrow defeat long term.

    What the government needs is some sort of positive vision for the future.
    Yep that is what was completely missing from the election campaign which is why May didn't get a majority. I fear, however, that her vision is one where the paperwork is done just that bit more efficiently than it is at the moment. Useful, certainly, but somewhat short of inspiration.
    Better management would suffice as long as people think things are on the right path and that the good things are going to arrive at some point.

    But there's too many people ** who think things are on the wrong path and want change not better management. They need to be offered a positive vision and hope for the future. May seems incapable of that.

    ** young people especially and rightly so.
    Richard, for once we are in complete agreement.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Indeed.

    Though isn't the National Lottery effectively a FOBT with the proceeds used for government benefit.
  • DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Agree. Some High Streets in poor areas resemble a shite Las Vegas.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    David Davis has the great advantage with his potential electorate of being a Brexit true believer who hasn't yet crashed and burned. He looks the part: like Kitchener, he might not be a great man but he's a great poster.

    Other than that, it's hard to find much to commend him. But that might be enough.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    JackW said:

    Male circumcision is one of those cultural and religious mores like others before it that will be further challenged and probably become socially unacceptable and likely banned in due course.

    The shocking cases of FGM has certainly weakened the case for male circumcision or MGM as it probably should be termed. But for religious sensitivities it's impossible to justify carrying out unnecessary medical procedures on infants by unqualified practitioners that too often leads to further treatment being required and on rare occasions death.

    Circumcision is abuse.

    If believers think it is necessary then let them have it done to themselves at 16 or 18 or whatever age the law sets as legally competent. They have no right to inflict it on someone else and that includes their offspring.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056

    There are High Streets with 12-14 bookies on them ???

    One thing which has surprised me is that the number of betting shops has increased - I would have thought that with internet betting they would have fallen.

    Though, personally, I would be quite happy to see fewer betting shops and likewise fewer coffee shops, pound shops and general cheap tat shops. With the property thus freed up redeveloped for residential use.

    You really ought to get out a little more, my friend ?

    East Ham High Street has 14 bookies - many others have double figures in London.

    I suppose the equivalent in provincial England is the charity book shop - Bexhill has 23 apparently.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Indeed.

    Though isn't the National Lottery effectively a FOBT with the proceeds used for government benefit.
    My late father in law always said he was too much of a gambler to play the lottery. FOBTs and the lottery are a tax on the stupid in large part and objectionable for that reason alone.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited June 2017
    If I remember correctly the objection to Blair's Id card proposal was not that you got a card with your photo on but that there was going to a huge database of all your personal / biometric data with a massive number and wide ranging state agencies would have access to.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    Scott_P said:

    Davis is totally winging it ...

    So far he is not up to the task. An ambassador from a senior member state, who has been briefed on how Davis is viewed by the EU now, has a crushing verdict: “He is part of the problem. He doesn’t know the dossiers well. His style is arrogant, he is full of bluster.” A European insider says Davis appears to have an inflated, jingoistic faith in Britain’s influence which is not going to play out well. “He’s going to be humiliated again and again by the EU, as he was in the first week. How will someone as vain as Davis explain that?.” Even a senior Tory peer and Brexiteer is worried by his performance so far: “I am, frankly, scared. I’d be surprised if it all went right now.”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/davis-is-a-dangerous-driver-of-the-brexit-bus-xshs7h7rj

    AA Gill was a seer...

    Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

    Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”


    http://dndlaw.com/aa-gill-on-brexit/
    AA Gill detested his own country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited June 2017
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    John Major won in 1992 against the odds and despite a recession after 13 years of the Tories in power when Kinnock expected to win on his second attempt, much as Corbyn does now, Major won 41% and held almost all the 42% who voted for Thatcher in 1987 given 42% voted for May in 2017 the Tories in 2022 need to do the same

    I expected one of the Conservative members and supporters to come back on this and I wasn't disappointed.

    There is the key difference that Margaret Thatcher was deposed by her own backbenchers in November 1990. What the Conservatives therefore need to do is overthrow May in 2019 or 2020 and hope a new person will recapture the vote. The problem is May isn't Thatcher in 1987 - May is already a busted flush, you know that, I know that, most of the Conservative Party knows it.

    There are other reasons why the 87-92 parallel doesn't work - in 1987 the Conservatives had a majority of 101. That was reduced to 21 (or so) in 1992 so if we take a similar 40-seat loss to Labour next time that doesn't end so well.

    Relying on vote share only gets you so far - the Conservatives polled 42% and were hammered by Labour in 1966 while Labour won more votes but still lost in 1951. Yes, the Conservatives could go up a tiny amount and get a majority - they could go down a small amount and not be able to form a government.

    In 1990 Thatcher's problem was the poll tax which was entirely associated with her and Major replaced with the council tax. May's problem was the dementia tax, which she has already dumped and arguably hard Brexit which someone like Hammond if he were Tory leader could soften

    Your seat argument also does not hold as from 1987 to 1992 Kinnock squeezed about 4% from the SDP/LDs and Corbyn has already squeezed the LDs as much as he can

    So on voteshare provided the Tories avoid any further significant movement to Labour they could remain largest party at the next general election or even get a very small majority
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    Anyway, I have to go to my son's prize giving to see him get a prize. He's pretty chuffed and rightly so.

    Laters.
  • stodge said:


    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    There are High Streets with 12-14 bookies on them ???

    One thing which has surprised me is that the number of betting shops has increased - I would have thought that with internet betting they would have fallen.

    Though, personally, I would be quite happy to see fewer betting shops and likewise fewer coffee shops, pound shops and general cheap tat shops. With the property thus freed up redeveloped for residential use.
    Again, that seems sensible. Wembley had a rather interesting building stuck up near the Central station which was flats and some decent shops. If some of the bookies were closed and allowed for redevelopment it would make the street look much better even if they were purely residential units (which would be very valuable). While I accept High Streets denuded of shops are not ideal, where there are only bookies, coffee shops, pound shops and charity shops they are not worth a damn as High Streets anyway.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405
    RoyalBlue said:

    This is a nonsense article. Precisely how it will work will not be known until the deal is agreed with the EU. It's not in Davis' power to decide on his own.
    Business knows that the uncertainty means they can't plan and that the eventual outcome will be worse than what they had, even if they don't know how much worse and in what ways. David Davis going, "There, there. Don't worry your small heads about it." isn't helpful.

    The inevitable conclusion is to reduce your exposure to Britain. They would be irresponsible to their firms not to do so. I fear David Davis and his type of Brexiteer fail to understand how markets and investment works.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. L, congrats to your son.

    Mr. Urquhart, indeed. The ID card scheme was horrendous.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    DavidL said:


    The reality for most adults is that the photo ID driving licence serves the same function. I think there is also an underlying principle that you are not accountable to functionaries of the state and required to produce your papers but I find it hard to get excited about it personally.

    I carry a Court pass which allows me through security in Courts without my bags being searched and into prisons (and more importantly out again). Would I have fewer rights if I had to carry an ID card? Struggle to see it.

    That isn't the point. Yes people carry documentation to prove their identity but the notion of having to carry an ID card at all times and having to present it on demand to a Police Officer or whomsoever else in authority just smacks as totalitarian.

    Yes we have to prove we live where we say we do sometimes and we have to prove we are who we say we are sometimes as part of the warp and weft of daily life so what would a compulsory Government ID card bring to the party except another layer of bureaucracy and a huge profit for the card maker ?

    It's not necessary, it's not wanted (I would argue) and I'm surprised Conservatives, who used to be in favour of less Government not more support it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    What's Mike on about? The QS hasn't passed yet. It will, but they vote on it today. She's flying back from the g20 to vote.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    FF43 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Davis is totally winging it ...
    twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/880312768842407936

    This is a nonsense article. Precisely how it will work will not be known until the deal is agreed with the EU. It's not in Davis' power to decide on his own.
    Business knows that the uncertainty means they can't plan and that the eventual outcome will be worse than what they had, even if they don't know how much worse and in what ways. David Davis going, "There, there. Don't worry your small heads about it." isn't helpful.

    The inevitable conclusion is to reduce your exposure to Britain. They would be irresponsible to their firms not to do so. I fear David Davis and his type of Brexiteer fail to understand how markets and investment works.
    Exactly. You say "The inevitable conclusion is to reduce your exposure to Britain..." which is exactly what will happen and it is even driving what I am doing because although I am further down the industry food chain, what happens to the big companies feeds down to my level quite quickly.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Indeed.

    Though isn't the National Lottery effectively a FOBT with the proceeds used for government benefit.
    My late father in law always said he was too much of a gambler to play the lottery. FOBTs and the lottery are a tax on the stupid in large part and objectionable for that reason alone.
    I agree about FOBTs and lottery scratchcards. I disagree about the lottery itself. Most people who participate in the lottery know that the odds are rubbish. They're not betting to make a shrewd investment. They're buying a dream. At £2, it's cheap.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    stodge said:


    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    There are High Streets with 12-14 bookies on them ???

    One thing which has surprised me is that the number of betting shops has increased - I would have thought that with internet betting they would have fallen.

    Though, personally, I would be quite happy to see fewer betting shops and likewise fewer coffee shops, pound shops and general cheap tat shops. With the property thus freed up redeveloped for residential use.
    Again, that seems sensible. Wembley had a rather interesting building stuck up near the Central station which was flats and some decent shops. If some of the bookies were closed and allowed for redevelopment it would make the street look much better even if they were purely residential units (which would be very valuable). While I accept High Streets denuded of shops are not ideal, where there are only bookies, coffee shops, pound shops and charity shops they are not worth a damn as High Streets anyway.
    This does baffle me somewhat.

    Some of the grotty cheap shops in town centres or near railway stations surely can't be making much of a profit.

    Yet as property for residential redevelopment would be extremely valuable.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Obviously it is an ID card. It is an ID card for people who are not British but are being welcomed here and given the use of our NHS, benefits system and other public services free of charge.

    Of course we are doing this because the vast majority of these people are contributors to our society not because we are nice but even so we still need to distinguish between those entitled and those not. Is there something wrong with that? Are Europeans, who pretty much all have such documents in their own countries really going to get wound up about this?

    The EU position seems to be that EU citizens should have identical rights in the UK after the UK has left the EU. It is a somewhat odd proposition if you think about it.
    I've still never really understood why people are so against ID cards at all in the UK. As you say, most other countries in Europe manage with them, without turning into totalitarian surveillance states. The government should really just bring them in for everyone. It's also a big part of why so many Calais migrants try to get in to the UK - no ID checks once you are inside.
    The reality for most adults is that the photo ID driving licence serves the same function. I think there is also an underlying principle that you are not accountable to functionaries of the state and required to produce your papers but I find it hard to get excited about it personally.

    I carry a Court pass which allows me through security in Courts without my bags being searched and into prisons (and more importantly out again). Would I have fewer rights if I had to carry an ID card? Struggle to see it.
    I guess as years go by more and more people have the photo driving license, so yes it has probably made the card a bit redundant - but a lot of people still don't have the photo ones. My mother only just got a photo one after years of us mocking her papyrus elder scroll version.

    It seems like one of those issues people treat as "the thin end of the wedge", when in reality it wouldn't change much at all.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Indeed.

    Though isn't the National Lottery effectively a FOBT with the proceeds used for government benefit.
    My late father in law always said he was too much of a gambler to play the lottery. FOBTs and the lottery are a tax on the stupid in large part and objectionable for that reason alone.
    I view the lottery scratchcards and FOBTs, and the normal lottery to a lesser extent, as a tax on poor people.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    As for the politics, the Conservative-DUP deal is pretty much as might have been expected. One area that does interest me is the implementation of the Gambling Commission Review relating to the amounts that can be played on FOBTs in betting shops.

    The DUP has actually supported Labour, LDs, SNP and others in wanting the stake reduced to £2 while the Conservatives have supported the betting industry and want to keep the status quo. I think if the question went to the floor of the Commons it's entirely possible the Government would lose.

    That would have consequences as a number of betting shop providers have made it clear without the FOBTs, their High Street operations would be unviable. If in a High Street of 12-14 shops , half went suddenly it would be obvious.

    Otherwise, after the febrile excitement of recent times, I suspect a quieter period may be approaching. I do think in the longer term the Conservatives are done and you can put a fork in them now. By 2022, they will have been in office for 12 years and that's approaching "time for a change" territory. Corbyn's toxicity was over done as well but if I were Labour (and the LDs as well), I'd be thinking now about the kind of Britain the 2020s and the departure from the EU will present.

    Personally, I think that this is a recommendation that should be implemented. The damage done by FOBTs is horrendous and if the price paid is slightly fewer betting shops in the High Street that is a price worth paying. Its like arguing Boots would have more branches if only they could sell crack.

    I would be surprised and disappointed if there were not a number of Tory MPs who did not feel the same.
    Indeed.

    Though isn't the National Lottery effectively a FOBT with the proceeds used for government benefit.
    My late father in law always said he was too much of a gambler to play the lottery. FOBTs and the lottery are a tax on the stupid in large part and objectionable for that reason alone.
    I agree about FOBTs and lottery scratchcards. I disagree about the lottery itself. Most people who participate in the lottery know that the odds are rubbish. They're not betting to make a shrewd investment. They're buying a dream. At £2, it's cheap.
    The lottery and FOBTs have a little-discussed effect of sucking money out of the local economy. As such, they add to austerity and are bad for the government's electoral chances (whoever is in office).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    edited June 2017
    Off topic, on PB I keep on getting adverts for 'Adults only hotels.'

    Should I click the link to find out what exactly they are?

    (And yes I know how ad targeting works)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, taxes aren't voluntary.

    Mr. Stodge, I share your dislike of ID cards.
This discussion has been closed.