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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Electing a leader from Scotland could give the LDs a huge boos

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  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,544

    @Daniel_Sugarman

    Here follows a quick thread on the proposal that some of the empty homes in Kensington should be seized to house the homeless from the fire

    (1) This idea is catnip to some people. It sounds so good. "How can any1 decent oppose the rehousing of those affected? The houses r empty!"

    2) To the people who say it's against the law, others bring up the concept of Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPOs), which are used by councils

    3) Except that these are among the most expensive properties in Britain. Even at CPO rates, we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds

    4) Oh, & owners (wherever they are) must be notified, & there's a notice period (by law) of a few weeks in which they can make objections

    5) That's the law. You can talk about changing that law, sure. But in the meantime, that's the law.

    6) "But what about all the cases where poor people are taken advantage of by councils via CPO b/c they don't have access to legal counsel?"

    7) Yes, that is DESPICABLE. But that's the point. You're talking about taking houses from people who have very, very good lawyers

    8) And when all this has died down, & Corbyn, Lammy, Harman etc go away, the lawyers are still there. And they'll sue the council. And win

    9) The council will lose millions in civil suits, and who will suffer then? Not the rich, but the poor who need council services desperately

    10) It would cost the council a million times less to house all those affected in a Hotel & pay for it, than it would to take those houses

    11) There's no way Corbyn et al don't know all this. Notice, they aren't suggesting brand new legislation to change these laws

    13) And given that the government has already committed to rehousing all those affected by the fire, what we actually have is Corbyn et al

    14) Using this tragedy & very real distress of those affected to try & suggest something which makes them look good & opponents heartless...

    15) But which, further down the line, would further devastate the lives of those they claim to care about so deeply.

    Honestly, I don't think Corbyn and co think things through that clearly.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    @Daniel_Sugarman

    Here follows a quick thread on the proposal that some of the empty homes in Kensington should be seized to house the homeless from the fire

    (1) This idea is catnip to some people. It sounds so good. "How can any1 decent oppose the rehousing of those affected? The houses r empty!"

    2) To the people who say it's against the law, others bring up the concept of Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPOs), which are used by councils

    3) Except that these are among the most expensive properties in Britain. Even at CPO rates, we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds

    4) Oh, & owners (wherever they are) must be notified, & there's a notice period (by law) of a few weeks in which they can make objections

    5) That's the law. You can talk about changing that law, sure. But in the meantime, that's the law.

    6) "But what about all the cases where poor people are taken advantage of by councils via CPO b/c they don't have access to legal counsel?"

    7) Yes, that is DESPICABLE. But that's the point. You're talking about taking houses from people who have very, very good lawyers

    8) And when all this has died down, & Corbyn, Lammy, Harman etc go away, the lawyers are still there. And they'll sue the council. And win

    9) The council will lose millions in civil suits, and who will suffer then? Not the rich, but the poor who need council services desperately

    10) It would cost the council a million times less to house all those affected in a Hotel & pay for it, than it would to take those houses

    11) There's no way Corbyn et al don't know all this. Notice, they aren't suggesting brand new legislation to change these laws

    13) And given that the government has already committed to rehousing all those affected by the fire, what we actually have is Corbyn et al

    14) Using this tragedy & very real distress of those affected to try & suggest something which makes them look good & opponents heartless...

    15) But which, further down the line, would further devastate the lives of those they claim to care about so deeply.

    Everything is black and white, everything is easy.


    Until you try to do it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046

    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.
    Agreed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046

    'Twas on the podcast.
    Ah. Perhaps a written thread would be good too.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I think there have been 20 post-war GEs, so on that metric Corbyn would be 14th out of 20. Above 1955, 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992 and 2015.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    edited June 2017
    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    Someone in QT got it right last night. She is a PM for a past era. Certainly for a pre social media era and I'd add she is wholly unsuited for both a new parliamentary and Brexit reality where she needs to cooperate.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,750

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    There does seem to be evidence that the micro targeting using big data that was so effective in 2015 was a total disaster this time.


    Campaigning, targeted or not, works when you have something you can really hope to sell and in 2017 the Tories just didn't. There was a residual fear of Corbyn that held their lead (just) but nothing positive at all.

    That's right.

    Actually, the target voter information was very good, in my experience. The people we were contacting *were* the swing voters (and Con-identifiers to shore up). The problem was that in the last fortnight of the campaign, those swing voters were swinging to Labour.
    They were swing voters in the sense of being non-Tories who *might* swing Tory, but in the event didn't.

    The swing voters you needed to be contacting were those who were Tories, but might swing away.
    We needed to contact both. We lost by 2100 votes, despite adding some 6000 votes on to our 2015 total, when we lost by 2600.

    But the people I was contacting on that election eve were people who *had* previously been identified as Tory. Ironically, on election day itself, when I was contacting the model-generated swing voters (plus pledges), it felt a little better - hence my revision in prediction to 'a small majority' (though that was only about as far out as my original Wednesday post of 'Con 300').
    If the model was directing you toward people that were ex-Tories, that suggests you were probably in the right place (if still on to lose)? If the people running the model were expecting a 120+ seat landslide, you'd have been sent to people who had never been Tory before, such as these mythical Lab-UKIP-Tory switchers.
    The thing is, those people *did* exist. It's one reason why I felt so conflicted as to what was going on late on in the campaign. Votes were going in a lot of directions, both from May 2015 and from April 2017. For example, the Con vote in Wakefield:

    1997 - 14373
    2001 - 12638
    2005 - 13648
    2010 - 15841
    2015 - 14688
    2017 - 20811

    or in Hemsworth

    1997 - 8096
    2001 - 7400
    2005 - 8149
    2010 - 10662
    2015 - 9694
    2017 - 15566

    We *did* get out a lot of new people to back the Tories. But two months before the election, even more would have done so.
    The electorate and turnout growth would have generated about 1000 extra Tory votes in a typical constituency, with the rise in Tory support nationally adding another 2500 won from the minor parties. Anything beyond that points to local/regional factors, and will be balanced by other seats where the gain in vote was correspondingly less than 3500.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    edited June 2017
    TOPPING said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Has Andrea Leadsom given herself a shot at replacing Theresa May this morning?

    You know things are bad for the Tory Party when people are considering Leadsom as likely a better leader and PM than Tezza.
    Well yes, things are as bad as they can get for the Tories and the country.

    We've got a Zombie-like PM who is so out of touch and unable to reach out to the people she seeks to govern that she can't even spend a few minutes with the victims of a national disaster.

    That's how bad things are...

    Or put another way, even IDS would preferable to Mrs May at this point!!!! ;)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
    I had far more sympathy for HMQ's reaction to the death of Diana, than that of the self-centred and indulgent public.

    I thought it was disgusting they made William and Harry come down to help them with their grief by marching behind their mother's coffin.

    Thoroughly un-British. And I still don't understand it to this day.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,783
    Anger is not only understandable, it is inevitable, and indeed a vital part of psychological recovery. Someone needs to step up, take the hit for the authorities, and front up. I suggest 2 people. The utterly inadequate leader of RBK+C Nick Pagett-Brown, and the ex-Housing Minister Gavin Barwell. They need to meet with the survivors, and get shouted at, in a controlled environment.They also need to have up-to-date information as to what is the plan.
    Otherwise, we could get something worse.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
    Very true also was not there a reaction to the 1992 Windsor castle fire? I seem to remember the Royal family offered to pay for some of the repairs.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046
    If the Queen's speech doesn't pass with a majority of the House next week, or the negotiations break-down straight away on Monday, then May is toast. But this fire may finish her off over the weekend.

    I think the EU will run rings around her.

    Can I write a letter to Graham Brady as an ordinary party member?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.

    My initial reaction, on the day after the election, was that she should go. Over the next couple of days I began to think that she could remain leader for a while, but the mis-steps have continued, and seem to be getting worse. To be a senior politician, particularly in difficult circumstances, you need a lot of self-belief, but she wouldn't be human if she hadn't had the stuffing knocked out of her by the events of the last 8 days.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,669

    FF43 said:

    I was reading up on Anthony Eden and was struck with some parallels between him and Theresa May. Both antisocial. Both anxious to have the appearance of being tough. Both seen as cautious safe pairs of hands who became impulsive and took reckless gambles with disastrous consequences.

    And, of course, they were the two worst British Prime Ministers since the Second World War.

    Muffled cheer from Gordon Brown's hoose.
    LOL
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,069
    The absolute swing to Corbyn is no surprise. It is a surprise compared to the expectations. The "level of surprise" (ie difference between the expected and actual results) are on a paar with 1992 and 1997.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,104
    PeterC said:

    nunuone said:



    The narrative has changed against the government. There is little they can do. They can change leader, give freebies etc etc but Corbyn is looking more like a leader everyday as much as it pains me to say it.

    We should all prepare ourselves for PM Corbyn mentally now, so the shock is less when/if it happens.

    From a purely tactical point of view, that is one very good reason to let Corbyn have a go now. The choice is not Lab or not Lab. The choice is Lab now or Lab later. Lab now - with an unviable coalition in parliament and a Con majority capable of blocking a new election and any legislation that would have permanently damaging effects, and able to bring Lab down at a time of its choosing - is the better option for the country.

    Give him a year, let him fail and then go back to the country.
    Where are the numbers for Labour's coalition?
    They wouldn't last long as a minority government.
    They're not there. But Corbyn is willing to give it a go because Corbyn can't count (or doesn't understand the relevance of being able to count.

    They can last precisely as long as the Tory leader wants them to last. And in the meantime, the Tories can get on with choosing a new leader.
    Quite nice in a breathtakingly partisan and cynical way.
    It's not just partisan. I think the May government has run out of steam but will continue, zombie-like, to stumble onwards unless checked - to no-one's great benefit. That deadlock will be broken one way or another and the likelihood is that a Labour majority results at the end of it. Preventing that outcome is in the national interest.
    So, would the Tories stand by and let Corbyn do whatever he wants to do with Brexit (admittedly we don't rally know what that would be - and whether his MPs would let him)?
    You'd have to. But a new election in May next year would still leave the final settlement to whatever government came out of that poll.

    Seeing Corbyn on the international stage will be a necessary educative process for the public.
    Unless he is overtaken by vanity would Corbyn not see the trap and refuse to walk into it?
    No. If he saw the trap, he wouldn't have already offered to jump into it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JoeMurphyLondon: Breaking - Man tasered at Commos
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,104
    rcs1000 said:

    From a purely tactical point of view, that is one very good reason to let Corbyn have a go now. The choice is not Lab or not Lab. The choice is Lab now or Lab later. Lab now - with an unviable coalition in parliament and a Con majority capable of blocking a new election and any legislation that would have permanently damaging effects, and able to bring Lab down at a time of its choosing - is the better option for the country.

    Give him a year, let him fail and then go back to the country.

    Would the public not be quite critical of such game-playing from the Conservatives?

    If you put Corbyn in office, but then block him from enacting the policies in his manifesto and stop him from calling an election to secure a mandate from the electorate, you would look like a cat toying with a mouse.
    I agree that he'd have to have the chance to enact his major policies, particularly the tax-and-spend ones. The Tories would have to abstain, precisely on the grounds that 'Labour needs to be given a chance to prove itself'. Only policies that could only be undone with extreme difficulty, if at all, need be blocked.

    Ideally, the move should already have been made, but a breakdown in the DUP deal would serve as excuse. "We have failed to reach a position where we can be confident of the support of a majority in parliament for our programme. As such, we believe it is better to go into opposition than have our policies and legislation voted down piece by piece".
    Have you read Mr Balfour's Poodle? It starts with a wonderful description of how the Conservatives allowed Asquith to become PM in 1905 (while the Conservatives were the majority party in the Commons), in what what was considered at the time a tactical masterstroke.

    Of course, the next year the Liberals managed one of the greatest landslides in British political history.
    Failing to get rid of Balfour didn't help the Tories. But the Liberal front bench of the day was absolutely formidable; one of the best of the century. Labour's today, to put it kindly, isn't.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JoeMurphyLondon: There were shouts of "knife knife knife" and man was brought down with a Taser

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Incident at Westminster, police on scene
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    How is the Bigot Beanfest going?

    No surrender to the DUP???
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,429
    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Breaking - Man tasered at Commos

    Corbyn?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,999
    Blue_rog said:

    @Daniel_Sugarman

    Here follows a quick thread on the proposal that some of the empty homes in Kensington should be seized to house the homeless from the fire

    (1) This idea is catnip to some people. It sounds so good. "How can any1 decent oppose the rehousing of those affected? The houses r empty!"

    2) To the people who say it's against the law, others bring up the concept of Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPOs), which are used by councils

    3) Except that these are among the most expensive properties in Britain. Even at CPO rates, we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds

    4) Oh, & owners (wherever they are) must be notified, & there's a notice period (by law) of a few weeks in which they can make objections

    5) That's the law. You can talk about changing that law, sure. But in the meantime, that's the law.

    6) "But what about all the cases where poor people are taken advantage of by councils via CPO b/c they don't have access to legal counsel?"

    7) Yes, that is DESPICABLE. But that's the point. You're talking about taking houses from people who have very, very good lawyers

    8) And when all this has died down, & Corbyn, Lammy, Harman etc go away, the lawyers are still there. And they'll sue the council. And win

    9) The council will lose millions in civil suits, and who will suffer then? Not the rich, but the poor who need council services desperately

    10) It would cost the council a million times less to house all those affected in a Hotel & pay for it, than it would to take those houses

    11) There's no way Corbyn et al don't know all this. Notice, they aren't suggesting brand new legislation to change these laws

    13) And given that the government has already committed to rehousing all those affected by the fire, what we actually have is Corbyn et al

    14) Using this tragedy & very real distress of those affected to try & suggest something which makes them look good & opponents heartless...

    15) But which, further down the line, would further devastate the lives of those they claim to care about so deeply.

    Everything is black and white, everything is easy.


    Until you try to do it.
    Like get the DUP to back you?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.
    I think you are correct Alistair .It seems cruel in a way to see someone hang on in such circumstances.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    rcs1000 said:

    Some interesting thoughts from Goodwin on Labour's message:

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/875623361019170817

    Will we see some capital flight once/if it becomes clear Corbyn will win next time?

    If interest rates do go up that is going to hurt an awful lot of homeowners who are currently just about managing. Throw in a Brexit downturn on top and it will start to get very difficult indeed for the Tories.

    If you're only just managing to pay the mortgage when interest rates are 0.25%, then perhaps you shouldn't have borrowed so much money.

    I am not sure that is a message that would resonate.

    Many people on this site a pretty wealthy/comfortable and can't really understand what it is like for your average person.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scott_P said:

    @JoeMurphyLondon: Breaking - Man tasered at Commos

    Corbyn?
    Only chance of a bright spark emanating from him..
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    rcs1000 said:

    Some interesting thoughts from Goodwin on Labour's message:

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/875623361019170817

    Will we see some capital flight once/if it becomes clear Corbyn will win next time?

    If interest rates do go up that is going to hurt an awful lot of homeowners who are currently just about managing. Throw in a Brexit downturn on top and it will start to get very difficult indeed for the Tories.

    If you're only just managing to pay the mortgage when interest rates are 0.25%, then perhaps you shouldn't have borrowed so much money.

    I am not sure that is a message that would resonate.

    Many people on this site a pretty wealthy/comfortable and can't really understand what it is like for your average person.
    You do also have people on here surviving on benefits.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    FF43 said:

    I was reading up on Anthony Eden and was struck with some parallels between him and Theresa May. Both antisocial. Both anxious to have the appearance of being tough. Both seen as cautious safe pairs of hands who became impulsive and took reckless gambles with disastrous consequences.

    And, of course, they were the two worst British Prime Ministers since the Second World War.

    Tories will be hoping Mrs May's replacement is like Super Mac! :D
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,999
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.
    I think you are correct Alistair .It seems cruel in a way to see someone hang on in such circumstances.
    There are people more worthy of our kindness than a Prime Minister who called an unnecessary General Election.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Incident at Westminster, police on scene

    Judging by pictures on twitter the man arrested isn't Swedish...
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,272
    Like others have said Her Maj is VERY in tune with the public and there were several moments over her reign where she has learnt from mistakes.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185

    @Daniel_Sugarman

    Here follows a quick thread on the proposal that some of the empty homes in Kensington should be seized to house the homeless from the fire

    (1) This idea is catnip to some people. It sounds so good. "How can any1 decent oppose the rehousing of those affected? The houses r empty!"

    2) To the people who say it's against the law, others bring up the concept of Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPOs), which are used by councils

    3) Except that these are among the most expensive properties in Britain. Even at CPO rates, we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds

    4) Oh, & owners (wherever they are) must be notified, & there's a notice period (by law) of a few weeks in which they can make objections

    5) That's the law. You can talk about changing that law, sure. But in the meantime, that's the law.

    6) "But what about all the cases where poor people are taken advantage of by councils via CPO b/c they don't have access to legal counsel?"

    7) Yes, that is DESPICABLE. But that's the point. You're talking about taking houses from people who have very, very good lawyers

    8) And when all this has died down, & Corbyn, Lammy, Harman etc go away, the lawyers are still there. And they'll sue the council. And win

    9) The council will lose millions in civil suits, and who will suffer then? Not the rich, but the poor who need council services desperately

    10) It would cost the council a million times less to house all those affected in a Hotel & pay for it, than it would to take those houses

    11) There's no way Corbyn et al don't know all this. Notice, they aren't suggesting brand new legislation to change these laws

    13) And given that the government has already committed to rehousing all those affected by the fire, what we actually have is Corbyn et al

    14) Using this tragedy & very real distress of those affected to try & suggest something which makes them look good & opponents heartless...

    15) But which, further down the line, would further devastate the lives of those they claim to care about so deeply.

    Honestly, I don't think Corbyn and co think things through that clearly.
    They know full well, they just don't care.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,967

    Blue_rog said:

    @Daniel_Sugarman

    Here follows a quick thread on the proposal that some of the empty homes in Kensington should be seized to house the homeless from the fire

    (1) This idea is catnip to some people. It sounds so good. "How can any1 decent oppose the rehousing of those affected? The houses r empty!"

    2) To the people who say it's against the law, others bring up the concept of Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPOs), which are used by councils

    3) Except that these are among the most expensive properties in Britain. Even at CPO rates, we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds

    4) Oh, & owners (wherever they are) must be notified, & there's a notice period (by law) of a few weeks in which they can make objections

    5) That's the law. You can talk about changing that law, sure. But in the meantime, that's the law.

    6) "But what about all the cases where poor people are taken advantage of by councils via CPO b/c they don't have access to legal counsel?"

    7) Yes, that is DESPICABLE. But that's the point. You're talking about taking houses from people who have very, very good lawyers

    8) And when all this has died down, & Corbyn, Lammy, Harman etc go away, the lawyers are still there. And they'll sue the council. And win

    9) The council will lose millions in civil suits, and who will suffer then? Not the rich, but the poor who need council services desperately

    10) It would cost the council a million times less to house all those affected in a Hotel & pay for it, than it would to take those houses

    11) There's no way Corbyn et al don't know all this. Notice, they aren't suggesting brand new legislation to change these laws

    13) And given that the government has already committed to rehousing all those affected by the fire, what we actually have is Corbyn et al

    14) Using this tragedy & very real distress of those affected to try & suggest something which makes them look good & opponents heartless...

    15) But which, further down the line, would further devastate the lives of those they claim to care about so deeply.

    Everything is black and white, everything is easy.


    Until you try to do it.
    Like get the DUP to back you?
    THose houses are in part worth so much due to the confidence foreign investors have with the British rule of law. Now if Corbyn...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
    I had far more sympathy for HMQ's reaction to the death of Diana, than that of the self-centred and indulgent public.

    I thought it was disgusting they made William and Harry come down to help them with their grief by marching behind their mother's coffin.

    Thoroughly un-British. And I still don't understand it to this day.
    The reaction to Diana's death was quite predicable. What ever her failings the public felt that she had been treated shabbily by the royal family - she was. Additionally Diana took up unpopular causes and had the rarest of qualities in public life - a complete inability to fake sincerity and empathy.

    As for William and Harry, Prince Philip encouraged the boys to walk behind the coffin, Prince Charles wasn't sure and Earl Spencer was against. The Duke won.

    It's also worth noting when discussing these matters that the princes are very much their mother's sons and have shown themselves more in her image. I shall not see it but I would expect King William to restore his mothers royal status.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    calum said:
    I'd be interested to know how they are calculating those seat totals. UNS is useless now afterall....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,972
    GIN1138 said:

    FF43 said:

    I was reading up on Anthony Eden and was struck with some parallels between him and Theresa May. Both antisocial. Both anxious to have the appearance of being tough. Both seen as cautious safe pairs of hands who became impulsive and took reckless gambles with disastrous consequences.

    And, of course, they were the two worst British Prime Ministers since the Second World War.

    Tories will be hoping Mrs May's replacement is like Super Mac! :D
    A committed Europhile? That would make the historical parallel with Eden even more striking.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,749
    calum said:
    On UNS, the LDs would gain Richmond Park and St Ives from the Conservatives. (And I suspect tactical voting would see them pick up Fife NE from the SNP.)

    What are the two seats Survation forecast them to lose?
  • TypoTypo Posts: 195
    TGOHF said:

    Incident at Westminster, police on scene

    Judging by pictures on twitter the man arrested isn't Swedish...
    But don't worry, it isn't terror related according to the BBC.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    edited June 2017

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
    I had far more sympathy for HMQ's reaction to the death of Diana, than that of the self-centred and indulgent public.

    I thought it was disgusting they made William and Harry come down to help them with their grief by marching behind their mother's coffin.

    Thoroughly un-British. And I still don't understand it to this day.
    The reaction to Diana's death was quite predicable. What ever her failings the public felt that she had been treated shabbily by the royal family - she was. Additionally Diana took up unpopular causes and had the rarest of qualities in public life - a complete inability to fake sincerity and empathy.

    As for William and Harry, Prince Philip encouraged the boys to walk behind the coffin, Prince Charles wasn't sure and Earl Spencer was against. The Duke won.

    It's also worth noting when discussing these matters that the princes are very much their mother's sons and have shown themselves more in her image. I shall not see it but I would expect King William to restore his mothers royal status.
    She was treated shabbily by Charles, and it was an unhappy marriage.

    But, there are two sides to the Royal Family story. Another is HMQ and Philip tried repeatedly with Diana, who disengaged and made it clear she wasn't interested.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    edited June 2017

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen and Duke of Cambridge at the Grenfell Towers area.

    when even the Queen is more in touch with the common people than the PM, the PM has issues.
    As was mentioned on the BBC the Queen was badly scared by the failures of the royal family to the Aberfan disaster. HM has over the decades attuned herself extremely well to the mood of the nation, although the death of Diana was a notable exception.
    I had far more sympathy for HMQ's reaction to the death of Diana, than that of the self-centred and indulgent public.

    I thought it was disgusting they made William and Harry come down to help them with their grief by marching behind their mother's coffin.

    Thoroughly un-British. And I still don't understand it to this day.
    The reaction to Diana's death was quite predicable. What ever her failings the public felt that she had been treated shabbily by the royal family - she was. Additionally Diana took up unpopular causes and had the rarest of qualities in public life - a complete inability to fake sincerity and empathy.

    As for William and Harry, Prince Philip encouraged the boys to walk behind the coffin, Prince Charles wasn't sure and Earl Spencer was against. The Duke won.

    It's also worth noting when discussing these matters that the princes are very much their mother's sons and have shown themselves more in her image. I shall not see it but I would expect King William to restore his mothers royal status.
    She was treated shabbily by Charles, and it was an unhappy marriage.

    But, there are two sides to the Royal Family story. Another is HMQ and Philip tried repeatedly with Diana, who disengaged and made it clear she wasn't interested.
    The mother-in-law daugher-in-law relationship is always tricky. They should have gone to Costa or - if they wanted to push the boat out - a nice half day at spa with Prosecco.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,276
    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    edited June 2017

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    rcs1000 said:

    calum said:
    On UNS, the LDs would gain Richmond Park and St Ives from the Conservatives. (And I suspect tactical voting would see them pick up Fife NE from the SNP.)

    What are the two seats Survation forecast them to lose?
    Not broken down yet - suffice to say SNP are not dead yet - with 27% SLAB GE2017 voters in yesterdays Survation being pro-Indy !!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,967
    rcs1000 said:

    calum said:
    On UNS, the LDs would gain Richmond Park and St Ives from the Conservatives. (And I suspect tactical voting would see them pick up Fife NE from the SNP.)

    What are the two seats Survation forecast them to lose?
    Edi West, Caithness, Sutherland to the SNP.

    Stirling, Gordon, Ayr, Ochil also to the SNP

    I think that won't happen mind.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
    We'll see...
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited June 2017

    PeterC said:

    nunuone said:



    The narrative has changed against the government. There is little they can do. They can change leader, give freebies etc etc but Corbyn is looking more like a leader everyday as much as it pains me to say it.

    We should all prepare ourselves for PM Corbyn mentally now, so the shock is less when/if it happens.

    From a purely tactical point of view, that is one very good reason to let Corbyn have a go now. The choice is not Lab or not Lab. The choice is Lab now or Lab later. Lab now - with an unviable le to bring Lab down at a time of its choosing - is the better option for the country.

    Give him a year, let him fail and then go back to the country.
    Where are the numbers for Labour's coalition?
    They wouldn't last long as a minority government.
    They're not there. But Corbyn is willing to give it a go because Corbyn can't count (or doesn't understand the relevance of being able to count.

    They can last precisely as long as the Tory leader wants them to last. And in the meantime, the Tories can get on with choosing a new leader.
    Quite nice in a breathtakingly partisan and cynical way.
    It's not just partisan. I think the May government has run out of steam but will continue, zombie-like, to stumble onwards unless checked - to no-one's great benefit. That deadlock will be broken one way or another and the likelihood is that a Labour majority results at the end of it. Preventing that outcome is in the national interest.
    So, would the Tories stand by and let Corbyn do whatever he wants to do with Brexit (admittedly we don't rally know what that would be - and whether his MPs would let him)?
    You'd have to. But a new election in May next year would still leave the final settlement to whatever government came out of that poll.

    Seeing Corbyn on the international stage will be a necessary educative process for the public.
    Unless he is overtaken by vanity would Corbyn not see the trap and refuse to walk into it?
    No. If he saw the trap, he wouldn't have already offered to jump into it.
    Perhaps. But I take Corbyn's statements so far as rhetoric. On mature consideration he would surely see that he would be leading his party into an impossible position and back away from it. But you could be right - it would certainly be terra incognita.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,669

    The Group in the best position to analyse what went wrong at Grenfell tower and most motivated to ensure the same thing does not happen again are the Fire Brigade.

    They will not be waiting for a public inquiry.

    Expect action from the Fire Brigade in the next few weeks.

    The courage shown by their members in the face of this crisis was truly remarkable. I can barely imagine how many H&S rules were ignored going through falling burning debris under a riot shield up a structurally imperilled building to get people out.

    Heroes but you are right, they won't want this to become a regular thing.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,972

    I think the EU will run rings around her.

    That would be true of any UK PM. The UK is trying to execute something beyond its strategic capacity and the EU just needs to confront us with patience while we exhaust our options.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    The idea that the media failed to scrutinize Jezza is risible. Were you in a political coma for the campaign?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
    We'll see...
    We don't need to see. It's a fact. If anything your campaign helped make Corbyn.

    Seriously, it's top advice. If you start taking Corbyn seriously and engage with him (rather than your caricature of him), you might do a bit better. Hell, you can't do much worse than losing 20 pts in a campaign.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,538
    Fucking amazing pictures at Westminster; they are cuffing the perp against the fence and he is standing upright.

    And all the police are there weapons down at their sides; no one covering him at all.

    Can't actually believe what I'm seeing they still haven't learned.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,132

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    But but I was assured the EU would be the supplicants in the Brexit talks, because BMW and Mercedes would force Frau Merkel to give us what we want.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    And they won't be doing so for quite a while yet. The narrative has completely reversed. Corbyn is now Lady Di with a beard.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,972

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    It's telling that UK based coverage of the sequencing of negotiations almost always forgets to mention Ireland as one of the first items on the agenda.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,797
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
    Most of the time, the bile was accurate.

    Corbyn is spectacularly unsuitable to be PM. Whilst May may be a poor PM, Corbyn and his friends would be disastrous for the UK.

    Hyperbole? I don't think so.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
    Only in the print media, which clearly has no influence at all now.

    In the broadcast media (which is what counts) Corbyn wasn't really put under any scrutiny at all.

    Not until the final week where he appeared on Question Time - And interestingly if it wasn't for the last week when I think there was small swing back to Con, Corbyn would probably have come away with the greatest number of seats.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,922

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    Who's responsible for this capitulation? Is it DD? It was always rumoured that he was a secret europhile (whip during Maastricht, mates with Alistair Campbell) so this is surely borne out by this genuflection before the EU elite!
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited June 2017
    Looks like the EU will publish details of UK's position !
    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/875666108375814145
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    calum said:
    On UNS, the LDs would gain Richmond Park and St Ives from the Conservatives. (And I suspect tactical voting would see them pick up Fife NE from the SNP.)

    What are the two seats Survation forecast them to lose?
    Those 2 people in Fife NE are the SNP fire wall. Fanatasising that either of them will switch is a waste of intellectual effort.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    I have some sympathy for May from over adulation to over the top derision.She and virtually everyone thought she would get an increased majority.Cynical definitely to call the election for party political advantage but those who supported this cause of action never question their parochial motives.

    I initially thought that the Conservatives should keep her, for want of a superior option. But the stuffing has evidently been knocked out of her so badly that she has to be replaced. It will be an act of kindness.
    I think you are correct Alistair .It seems cruel in a way to see someone hang on in such circumstances.
    There are people more worthy of our kindness than a Prime Minister who called an unnecessary General Election.
    Totally agree it was her call and responsibility whatever the advice given.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046

    I think the EU will run rings around her.

    That would be true of any UK PM. The UK is trying to execute something beyond its strategic capacity and the EU just needs to confront us with patience while we exhaust our options.
    Oh, fuck off, William. I'm tired of your constant ultra-europhile bullshit.

    It's tedious and boring. Go and work for Verhofstadht if you want to spout this day in, day out.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    edited June 2017
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
    The 'bile' was all true, though. Corbyn did do and say all those things he was accused of. Tory supporters here accept May is a dud - but you have been seduced by Corbyn's appararent easy manner and his loony economics. You're an apologist.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited June 2017

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    Well, they were hardly going to say anything else, were they? What matters is what they actually discuss, not what they tweet.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,783

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    It is the Conservatives job though, to hold Corbyn to account. When you won't answer questions or appear in debates, you forfeit that right. I heard Corbyn interviewed by the media, I heard him questioned by the public. I did not hear him questioned by Conservative politicians (except by Rudd, and that was only because Corbyn chose to turn up).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,429
    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
    Only in the print media, which clearly has no influence at all now.

    In the broadcast media (which is what counts) Corbyn wasn't really put under any scrutiny at all.

    Not until the final week where he appeared on Question Time - And interestingly if it wasn't for the last week when I think there was small swing back to Con, Corbyn would probably have come away with the greatest number of seats.
    Laura Kuenssberg has made a career of derailing Corbyn! An observation not a complaint!
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    rcs1000 said:

    Some interesting thoughts from Goodwin on Labour's message:

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/875623361019170817

    Will we see some capital flight once/if it becomes clear Corbyn will win next time?

    If interest rates do go up that is going to hurt an awful lot of homeowners who are currently just about managing. Throw in a Brexit downturn on top and it will start to get very difficult indeed for the Tories.

    If you're only just managing to pay the mortgage when interest rates are 0.25%, then perhaps you shouldn't have borrowed so much money.

    I am not sure that is a message that would resonate.

    Many people on this site a pretty wealthy/comfortable and can't really understand what it is like for your average person.
    Yes that mortgage quote said it all.When the SVR rate is over 4% and an average credit card over 15%.What has the official base rate got to do for people struggling.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    calum said:
    On UNS, the LDs would gain Richmond Park and St Ives from the Conservatives. (And I suspect tactical voting would see them pick up Fife NE from the SNP.)

    What are the two seats Survation forecast them to lose?
    Edi West, Caithness, Sutherland to the SNP.

    Stirling, Gordon, Ayr, Ochil also to the SNP

    I think that won't happen mind.
    Agreed. Scotland is a different place. SINDY 2 is the only game in town presently.

    I would consider an early election would see Richmond Park, St Ives and Fife NE fall easily. There is also a small group of other seats in danger to a small uptick for the yellow peril, fall in Con fortunes and tactical voting :

    Lewes .. North Cornwall .. Devon North .. Cheltenham .. Cheadle .. Hazel Grove.

    God forbid the yellow peril might even get dangerously close to me .... St Albans !! .... :cry:

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,633
    edited June 2017
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
    We'll see...
    We don't need to see. It's a fact. If anything your campaign helped make Corbyn.

    Seriously, it's top advice. If you start taking Corbyn seriously and engage with him (rather than your caricature of him), you might do a bit better. Hell, you can't do much worse than losing 20 pts in a campaign.
    Oh, I'm taking him very seriously (and by the way I'm NOT and never have been a Con member so it wasn't *MY* campaign)

    The truth is I find myself flirting with the possibility of voting for Jezza on a daily basis... But equally on a regular basis he does something that scares the hell out of me.

    You say I'm caricaturing him but then you have McDonnell demanding one million people take to the streets to force out the government and jezza talking about house confiscating... So am I caricaturing him or are you in a state of total denial about him?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,538
    calum said:

    Looks like the EU will publish details of UK's position !
    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/875666108375814145

    Does this constitute a running commentary?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,046
    The Queen today is showing just why we have a monarchy, and why it's better than a republic led by elected politicians.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,967

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    Well, they were hardly going to say anything else, were they? What matters is what they actually discuss, not what they tweet.
    They have us over a barrel, and the barrel was made even larger by the failure of the UK public to give the Tories a working majority.
    The barrel was created by the leave vote.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    JackW said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    The idea that the media failed to scrutinize Jezza is risible. Were you in a political coma for the campaign?
    Indeed. Risible is the word. The deeply irritating Laura K spent much of the campaign passing off her own opinion of Corbyn as fact - her Trident analysis being a new low for supposed BBC impartiality. But there are none so blind as those who cannot see.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    TOPPING said:

    calum said:

    Looks like the EU will publish details of UK's position !
    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/875666108375814145

    Does this constitute a running commentary?
    Might as well televise the meetings !
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,703
    Physiatrist on Sky saying that those in distress and the bereaved should not be interogated about how they feel and about their grief as this makes the truama worse. Sky and the BBC have been wholly unacceptable in the way they have presented the tragedy and good to see someone telling them so to their face
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    It's telling that UK based coverage of the sequencing of negotiations almost always forgets to mention Ireland as one of the first items on the agenda.

    Actually that's not true. One of the points DD and others have made is that it is completely impossible to discuss the Irish border question without at least some idea of what the border arrangements will have to be, i.e. discussing the trade deal.

    The stated EU position is so competely irrational that one can only assume that it is window-dressing. And, to be fair, their published negotiating guideliness do allow plenty of wriggle room.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Jason said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    That's because it was open-season on Theresa.

    If gets out of the way and someone at least partly likable take's over the focus may well shift back to Corbyn, especially if things get as out of control this Summer as I think they might.
    Er hello. That's bonkers. Some in the press noticed that Theresa was a bit useless, but any criticism she received was not close to the bile spewed continuously about Corbyn.
    The 'bile' was all true, though. Corbyn did do and say all those things he was accused of. Tory supporters here accept May is a dud - but you have been seduced by Corbyn's appararent easy manner and his loony economics. You're an apologist.
    I have been seduced by no-one. You need to wake up. The way you and your ilk are framing Corbyn does not work. And your so-called 'facts' have either been priced in or rejected by the voters as propaganda.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,967
    I think that was somewhat accurate actually.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,922
    To think, if Theresa hadn't put any faith in opinion polling then none of this awful mess would have happened. I think an iron rule for politicians should be: don't do anything that you wouldn't do if the polling situation was reversed.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    Who's responsible for this capitulation? Is it DD? It was always rumoured that he was a secret europhile (whip during Maastricht, mates with Alistair Campbell) so this is surely borne out by this genuflection before the EU elite!
    David Davis is mates with Alastair Campbell?
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    JackW said:

    Mr. Gin, maybe. The media hardly held Corbyn to account during the campaign.

    The idea that the media failed to scrutinize Jezza is risible. Were you in a political coma for the campaign?
    Indeed. Risible is the word. The deeply irritating Laura K spent much of the campaign passing off her own opinion of Corbyn as fact - her Trident analysis being a new low for supposed BBC impartiality. But there are none so blind as those who cannot see.
    Strange that. My elderly parents are convinced LK is a raging red. I guess you see what you want to see.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,276
    Mr. Dean, I agree, partly. The Conservatives failed utterly. But the media should not have. I recall Peston asking Corbyn if he'd give up his allotment, not on billions of pounds of extra spending an borrowing.

    Mr. Eagles, do you regret Osborne's anti-Conservative line, pouring endless manure upon May until the final day?

    You might revel in her failure, but it belongs to your party too.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
    We'll see...
    We don't need to see. It's a fact. If anything your campaign helped make Corbyn.

    Seriously, it's top advice. If you start taking Corbyn seriously and engage with him (rather than your caricature of him), you might do a bit better. Hell, you can't do much worse than losing 20 pts in a campaign.
    Oh, I'm taking him very seriously (and by the way I'm NOT and never have been a Con member so it wasn't *MY* campaign)

    The truth is I find myself flirting with the possibility of voting for Jezza on a daily basis... But equally on a regular basis he does something that scares the hell out of me.

    You say I'm caricaturing him but then you have McDonnell demanding one million people take to the streets to force out the government and jezza talking about house confiscating... So am I caricaturing him or are you in a state of total denial about him?
    +1

    Jezza = Lenin

    MacD = Stalin
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,922

    Leavers, take sedatives before reading this tweet:

    https://twitter.com/dngbbc/status/875663441171763202

    Who's responsible for this capitulation? Is it DD? It was always rumoured that he was a secret europhile (whip during Maastricht, mates with Alistair Campbell) so this is surely borne out by this genuflection before the EU elite!
    David Davis is mates with Alastair Campbell?
    So rumour has it - some shared business interests.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,538

    I think the EU will run rings around her.

    That would be true of any UK PM. The UK is trying to execute something beyond its strategic capacity and the EU just needs to confront us with patience while we exhaust our options.
    Oh, fuck off, William. I'm tired of your constant ultra-europhile bullshit.

    It's tedious and boring. Go and work for Verhofstadht if you want to spout this day in, day out.
    It's what this site is all about. Back and forth about likely machinations and conclusions and consequences of Brexit.

    And each of us has our own particular rhetorical devices.
  • TypoTypo Posts: 195

    Physiatrist on Sky saying that those in distress and the bereaved should not be interogated about how they feel and about their grief as this makes the truama worse. Sky and the BBC have been wholly unacceptable in the way they have presented the tragedy and good to see someone telling them so to their face

    Totally agreed. Sky in particular. All they want is a spectacle.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,132

    Mr. Dean, I agree, partly. The Conservatives failed utterly. But the media should not have. I recall Peston asking Corbyn if he'd give up his allotment, not on billions of pounds of extra spending an borrowing.

    Mr. Eagles, do you regret Osborne's anti-Conservative line, pouring endless manure upon May until the final day?

    You might revel in her failure, but it belongs to your party too.

    I don't agree with your observations.

    For example read Osborne's editorial urging people to vote Tory and reject Corbyn.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    One thing that won't help Labour regain office is if they start to whip up riots and civil disorder on the streets.

    They already straws in the wind of this.

    I have a feeling that's what's going to happen.

    Corbyn's popularity is starting to feel like a "bubble" and like all bubbles I suspect it'll burst...

    At some point this Summer I think we'll have a serious inner city riot (probably in London) and the Labour Party will be directly implicated in inciting it... We've already seen from Theresa May that opinion and likability can turn on a sixpence...

    The Labour Party is playing a dangerous game and it may well blow up in their face.
    Goodness me.

    Who knows what events might bring, but the Tory party would be far better off finding an approach to Corbyn which accepts he is popular (and might remain so), has said things that people like and might not be baby eater after all.

    At present, nothing you say resonates. It's all hyperbole.
    We'll see...
    We don't need to see. It's a fact. If anything your campaign helped make Corbyn.

    Seriously, it's top advice. If you start taking Corbyn seriously and engage with him (rather than your caricature of him), you might do a bit better. Hell, you can't do much worse than losing 20 pts in a campaign.
    Oh, I'm taking him very seriously (and by the way I'm NOT and never have been a Con member so it wasn't *MY* campaign)

    The truth is I find myself flirting with the possibility of voting for Jezza on a daily basis... But equally on a regular basis he does something that scares the hell out of me.

    You say I'm caricaturing him but then you have McDonnell demanding one million people take to the streets to force out the government and jezza talking about house confiscating... So am I caricaturing him or are you in a state of total denial about him?
    Gin, you are a centre-left guy who votes Tory. Clearly Jezza needs to be reaching out to people like you not scaring you!
This discussion has been closed.