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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour continues to lose the economy blame game: EdM needs

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  • Bell End.

    Ian Bell out
  • We have had a series of corporations slagged off by politicians. Tesco and Next could inhibit future attacks through an action against Bryant. They would certainly put themselves into an "untouchable" group through a successful action.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Populus
    @PopulusPolls
    New Populus VI figures: Lab 39 (↑1); Cons 33 (↑1); LD 12 (↔); UKIP 10 (↑1); Oth 7 (↓2) Table popu.lu/s_vi120813
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    LAB lead moves up to 6% with latest almost no change Populus online poll
    LAB 38 (↔)
    CON 32 (↓1)
    LD 12 (↔)
    UKIP 9 (↔)

    Populus has different figures.

    Populus ‏@PopulusPolls 1m
    New Populus VI figures: Lab 39 (↑1); Cons 33 (↑1); LD 12 (↔); UKIP 10 (↑1); Oth 7 (↓2) Table http://popu.lu/s_vi120813
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2013

    There are plenty of lessons for all UK political parties to learn from the private sector; just not necessarily from the British one, which tends to be far too short-term.

    This is often said, but I really don't think it stands up. Just look through the FTSE 100: are you really going to claim that Rolls Royce, Diageo, GlaxoSmithKline, Vodafone, Reckitt Benkiser, Tesco, ARM, BAe, BG, Compass, Capita, National Grid, easyJet, Hargreaves Lansdown, Standard Chartered, HSBC, or WPP are companies which take a short-term view? They seem to me to be a bunch of world-class companies which have invested over decades in their brands, skill and businesses, improving quality against tough competition whilst doggedly bearing down on costs.

    There are some great UK companies, but nowhere near enough for a country of our size.

    So, I expect that the vast majority of people which work for them are in the higher levels of education (and intelligence). There's only so much of that skilled labour which a country can provide, due to simple genetics and demographics of populations.

    Which raises the main issue...what do you do with the other 60%-80% (or however much) of the population which simply can't learn the skills to let them compete. In the past we had manufacturing and manual labour, the industries of which don't exist now.
    @Slackbladder:

    You are absolutely right. Technology has eliminated the typing pool, secretaries (except for a few), all types of clerks, telephonists, many production line workers etc. So what are we going to do with the people who do not have the right skill sets and with our education system are thus uneducated, unemployed and unemployable? We cannot afford to pay benefits for the rest of their working lives.

    Are we reverting to a two class society - "lords" and peasants?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Should the tories be a bit frustrated that they aren;t making real inroads into labour's lead?

    Labour's dismal run might not continue, after all.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Financier said:

    There are plenty of lessons for all UK political parties to learn from the private sector; just not necessarily from the British one, which tends to be far too short-term.

    This is often said, but I really don't think it stands up. Just look through the FTSE 100: are you really going to claim that Rolls Royce, Diageo, GlaxoSmithKline, Vodafone, Reckitt Benkiser, Tesco, ARM, BAe, BG, Compass, Capita, National Grid, easyJet, Hargreaves Lansdown, Standard Chartered, HSBC, or WPP are companies which take a short-term view? They seem to me to be a bunch of world-class companies which have invested over decades in their brands, skill and businesses, improving quality against tough competition whilst doggedly bearing down on costs.

    There are some great UK companies, but nowhere near enough for a country of our size.

    So, I expect that the vast majority of people which work for them are in the higher levels of education (and intelligence). There's only so much of that skilled labour which a country can provide, due to simple genetics and demographics of populations.

    Which raises the main issue...what do you do with the other 60%-80% (or however much) of the population which simply can't learn the skills to let them compete. In the past we had manufacturing and manual labour, the industries of which don't exist now.
    @Slackbladder:

    You are absolutely right. Technology has eliminated the typing pool, secretaries (except for a few), all types of clerks, telephonists, many production line workers etc. So what are we going to do with the people who do not have the right skill sets and with our education system are thus uneducated, unemployed and unemployable? We cannot afford to pay benefits for the rest of their working lives.

    Are we reverting to a two class society - "lords" and peasants?
    Indeed, technology has removed a lot of 'middle skilled' jobs, not just manual jobs.

    This is the point where Tomorrows Would would have us all living in tin foil clothes and luxury, not having to work much at all, with much more leisure time...whilst robots and computers do all the work.

    Doesn't seem to have worked out that way.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT

    RT @Birdyword: Joint 259th most popular names for boys in 2012 were 'Aston' and 'Martin'. Not a joke < Brilliant #AstonMartin
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Yep...this is continuing to go well for Byrant:

    Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 3m
    Tesco and Next to hold joint PR meeting later today to tackle Bryant issue http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/1194697/tesco-next-comms-teams-tackle-labour-foreign-worker-claims/

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    Financier said:

    There are plenty of lessons for all UK political parties to learn from the private sector; just not necessarily from the British one, which tends to be far too short-term.


    There are some great UK companies, but nowhere near enough for a country of our size.

    So, I expect that the vast majority of people which work for them are in the higher levels of education (and intelligence). There's only so much of that skilled labour which a country can provide, due to simple genetics and demographics of populations.

    Which raises the main issue...what do you do with the other 60%-80% (or however much) of the population which simply can't learn the skills to let them compete. In the past we had manufacturing and manual labour, the industries of which don't exist now.
    @Slackbladder:

    You are absolutely right. Technology has eliminated the typing pool secretaries (except for a few), all types of clerks, telephonists, many production line workers etc. So what are we going to do with the people who do not have the right skill sets and with our education system are thus uneducated, unemployed and unemployable? We cannot afford to pay benefits for the rest of their working lives.

    Are we reverting to a two class society - "lords" and peasants?
    As I have said passim (to varying amounts of disagreement): there are not really any unskilled jobs nowadays. Low-skilled, yet. Unskilled, no.

    Virtually every job, from road sweeping to school crossing keeper, requires training and common sense.

    And as I have also said passim, a massive problem we are dealing with nowadays was schools in industrial areas throwing away the least-able children, not bothering to teach them beyond the basics as they would just go into the foundry or down the pit. I know some people who were subjected to this, and it made the decline of those industries all the harder.

    Hopefully that has now changed, but that generation is still with us.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I remember fondly the Labour posters on here telling us how Ed was gonig to wipe the floor with George.

    Well, that went well then didn't it.

    So thats Balls, Burnham and Bryant that need to be chopped for starters.

    Not forgetting the other Ed of course...

    Omnishambles.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Actually, Labour's general strategy from here should be fairly straightforward to draw up. They need to move from the nebulous (predistribution, predators/producers) to the very very concrete. The language should be consciously workmanlike, lacking in poetry but grounded in everyday concerns, and improving the daily life of middle Britain. This will be a challenge for Labour's current leadership, which is far too fond of abstract debates.

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    antifrank said:

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.

    You forgot 'more motherhood, more apple pie, better sex and longer holidays'.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    antifrank said:

    Actually, Labour's general strategy from here should be fairly straightforward to draw up. They need to move from the nebulous (predistribution, predators/producers) to the very very concrete. The language should be consciously workmanlike, lacking in poetry but grounded in everyday concerns, and improving the daily life of middle Britain. This will be a challenge for Labour's current leadership, which is far too fond of abstract debates.

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.

    Which can be countered with, 'how, how and how?'
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.

    You forgot 'more motherhood, more apple pie, better sex and longer holidays'.
    I'm not saying that they would deliver, I'm identifying what they should campaign on.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    antifrank said:

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.

    You forgot 'more motherhood, more apple pie, better sex and longer holidays'.
    'free beer and tabs...'
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    There are plenty of lessons for all UK political parties to learn from the private sector; just not necessarily from the British one, which tends to be far too short-term.

    @Slackbladder:

    You are absolutely right. Technology has eliminated the typing pool secretaries (except for a few), all types of clerks, telephonists, many production line workers etc. So what are we going to do with the people who do not have the right skill sets and with our education system are thus uneducated, unemployed and unemployable? We cannot afford to pay benefits for the rest of their working lives.

    Are we reverting to a two class society - "lords" and peasants?
    As I have said passim (to varying amounts of disagreement): there are not really any unskilled jobs nowadays. Low-skilled, yet. Unskilled, no.

    Virtually every job, from road sweeping to school crossing keeper, requires training and common sense.

    And as I have also said passim, a massive problem we are dealing with nowadays was schools in industrial areas throwing away the least-able children, not bothering to teach them beyond the basics as they would just go into the foundry or down the pit. I know some people who were subjected to this, and it made the decline of those industries all the harder.

    Hopefully that has now changed, but that generation is still with us.
    @JosiasJessop

    I am not so sure that it has not got worse. At least those children used to emerge from school both literate and numerate. Today many leave school (after spending a longer time there) with neither of those qualities.
  • The Times say Downing Street says the UK Government set to sue Spain over the Gibraltar border checks farrago.

    Damnit, I wanted a war.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    "...

    If Labour is confused then it is partly because it cannot reconcile its past and present. On the one hand, there is a visceral loyalty to the ethos of the Brown years: spend, spend, spend and deny that anything went wrong. On the other hand, there is a reluctant recognition that most voters support austerity. Whenever Labour does shuffle towards the centre ground, its rhetoric begs comparison with what they actually did in office. Today, Chris Bryant, the shadow immigration minister, will give a speech attacking companies that employ cheap immigrant workers. He will say: “The biggest complaint I have heard, from migrants and settled communities alike, is about the negative effects migration can have on the UK labour market. And I agree.”

    Mr Bryant has a short memory. It was under Labour that it became much easier to gain a work permit, exit controls from the country were ended, visa offices were overwhelmed and human rights law made it almost impossible to deport illegal immigrants. In 2004, the government announced that Britain’s labour market would be opened to people from Eastern Europe. Voters were told that only about 13,000 would come. The real figure turned out to be around one million. If companies are indeed overlooking British workers in favour of foreign-born ones, it was Mr Miliband’s party that helped to make this possible..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/10236577/A-new-term-for-Ed-but-its-the-same-old-Labour.html
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Bryant was savaged on Sky News..He really looked like he did not want to be there.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    antifrank said:

    If Labour went into the next election under a slogan like "more jobs, more houses, higher wages", they wouldn't be too far adrift of the mark.

    You forgot 'more motherhood, more apple pie, better sex and longer holidays'.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    edited August 2013
    Financier said:



    @JosiasJessop

    I am not so sure that it has not got worse. At least those children used to emerge from school both literate and numerate. Today many leave school (after spending a longer time there) with neither of those qualities.

    "At least those children used to emerge from school both literate and numerate."

    I'm not sure they did.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I don't usually expect much from John Craig - but he monstered him.

    Bryant was savaged on Sky News..He really looked like he did not want to be there.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    The Times say Downing Street says the UK Government set to sue Spain over the Gibraltar border checks farrago.

    Damnit, I wanted a war.

    I don't understand this dispute at all, why don't Gibraltar join Schengen?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited August 2013

    The Times say Downing Street says the UK Government set to sue Spain over the Gibraltar border checks farrago.

    Damnit, I wanted a war.

    I don't understand this dispute at all, why don't Gibraltar join Schengen?
    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.
  • Michael Vaughan ‏@MichaelVaughan 4m

    Yorkshire back in control of the Ashes after a small sabbatical ..
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited August 2013

    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government needs a distraction from local political difficulties?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @edmundintokyo You seem to think that the British government finds a dispute with Spain over Gibraltar in some way uncongenial. I'm not sure where you get that idea from.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107

    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government gets into political difficulties?
    With all due respect, but I think it's rather more likely that if they did they would have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK, what with us not being in Schengen, and they'd rather have control free access to britain than Spain, what with them being British and all:-/
  • That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government needs a distraction from local political difficulties?
    I think this is more the Spain doing their usual silly beggars routine

    Gibraltar: Spain considers joint diplomatic offensive with Argentina over Falkland Islands

    Spain is considering forging an anti-British alliance with Argentina, adopting its strategy over the Falklands Islands, as the diplomatic row over Gibraltar intensifies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10235937/Gibraltar-Spain-considers-joint-diplomatic-offensive-with-Argentina-over-Falkland-Islands.html
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Still going well:
    Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 8m
    Chris Bryant says this recruitment website is used by Next and may be illegal http://www.flamejobs.pl/ Dear Next - will you now sue?

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    taffys said:

    What strikes me about Bryantgate is it is an illustration of the sheer indolence of labour's opposition. Bryant didn't even bother to research the matter he was speaking about at all. What a lazy g*t.

    Conservative MP Robert Halfon makes a very similar accusation, while praising USDAW. It may be that Mr Bryant was given a USDAW puff piece to include in his speech.

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/08/from-halfon4harlowmp-labour-messed-up-migration-but-theres-nothing-unconservative-in-criticising-tes.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    edited August 2013
    Mr. Eagles, I read that the other day.

    It's rather depressing. One expects anti-freedom, anti-democratic bullshit from the likes of Argentina, but Spain's meant to be civilised.

    Edited extra bit: still, maybe it's a sign of consistency. Having copied Argentina's economic approach the Spaniards are now aping their campaign against self-determination.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Has he dug down as far as Australia yet?

    Still going well:
    Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 8m
    Chris Bryant says this recruitment website is used by Next and may be illegal http://www.flamejobs.pl/ Dear Next - will you now sue?

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    taffys said:

    What strikes me about Bryantgate is it is an illustration of the sheer indolence of labour's opposition. Bryant didn't even bother to research the matter he was speaking about at all. What a lazy g*t.

    Conservative MP Robert Halfon makes a very similar accusation, while praising USDAW. It may be that Mr Bryant was given a USDAW puff piece to include in his speech.

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/08/from-halfon4harlowmp-labour-messed-up-migration-but-theres-nothing-unconservative-in-criticising-tes.html
    labour MP just being the voice-piece of the unions? surely not....
  • Mr. Eagles, I read that the other day.

    It's rather depressing. One expects anti-freedom, anti-democratic bullshit from the likes of Argentina, but Spain's meant to be civilised.

    I think we should take this as an opportunity to review the whole of the Treaty of Utrecht
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    Random said:

    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government gets into political difficulties?
    With all due respect, but I think it's rather more likely that if they did they would have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK, what with us not being in Schengen, and they'd rather have control free access to britain than Spain, what with them being British and all:-/
    If it was me I'd rather have border-control-free access to the large land-mass right next door, not to mention having them implemented by a country that wanted to be helpful nor one that wanted to screw me around.
  • O/T - My mind is boggled

    Katy Perry leaves message for Geoffrey Boycott: 'I love your style'

    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/news/a505847/katy-perry-leaves-message-for-geoffrey-boycott-i-love-your-style.html#ixzz2bkib4PVP
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato .. If he keeps on digging at this rate he will be meeting up with that other tower of Labour strength.. Watson
  • Actually can we also review the Treaty of Troyes.

    Time for Royaume-Uni to take control of the French.
  • It's no surprise the right-wing Partido Popular is taking this approach with Gibraltar. It's an avowedly Spanish nationalist party that was created by Franco apparatchiks. What's more, it has collapsed in the polls and is mired in a corruption scandal that has engulfed everyone up to the PM.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    More video footage emerges of Bryant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9desZZG_VWk
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So much for Carney devaluing the £ - its been dragging itself back vs the Euro.

    http://uk.reuters.com/business/currencies/quote?destAmt&destCurr=EUR&srcAmt=1&srcCurr=GBP

  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    Mr. Eagles, I read that the other day.

    It's rather depressing. One expects anti-freedom, anti-democratic bullshit from the likes of Argentina, but Spain's meant to be civilised.

    I think we should take this as an opportunity to review the whole of the Treaty of Utrecht
    And let's not forget... Argentina/Falklands is outside the scope of the NATO treaty, Spain/Gibraltar isn't... should either party threaten force they would be obliged to retaliate against themselves...
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    It's an avowedly Spanish nationalist party that was created by Franco apparatchiks.

    They're still taking the EU's money though, right?

    Planning to secede from the EU are they?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Mr. Eagles, I read that the other day.

    It's rather depressing. One expects anti-freedom, anti-democratic bullshit from the likes of Argentina, but Spain's meant to be civilised.

    Edited extra bit: still, maybe it's a sign of consistency. Having copied Argentina's economic approach the Spaniards are now aping their campaign against self-determination.

    It's easy for people of my generation to forget that Spain only became democratic in 1978, after decades of Francoist rule.

    If Cameron wanted to be unpolitic, he should just say: "I'm sorry Mr Rajoy is embroiled in a massive political scandal, and is in charge of a country whose economy is performing very poorly and suffers from high unemployment. But at such times, it is best to reach out for help from countries who are performing well, rather than playing to his own galleries and alienating those countries."

    It should not be forgotten that the reason this situation has sprung up is all to do with internal Spanish politics, not the citizens of Gibraltar.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I think today is proof that OGH and tim were right to suggest it was madness for Labour to announce any policies.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    "As we’ve seen, Bryant was scheduled to begin by implying Tesco and Next aren’t paying the minimum wage. In fact the companies have confirmed that they are paying above the minimum wage. He was also going to claim the companies are using Polish workers to avoid Agency Workers Regulations. Except the companies have pointed out that their employees are not in any way exempt from those regulations. He also planned to say Tesco had moved one of its distribution centres to Kent, enabling it to employ workers predominantly from “the Eastern Bloc”. Until Tesco pointed out that they don’t even have a distribution centre in Kent. They might have added the “Eastern Bloc” doesn’t exist any more either."

    ..."Chris Bryant is that sap. Ed Miliband wants the voters to think he’s peddling a tough line on immigration. But Ed Miliband is also nervous of his party realising that he wants the voters to think he’s peddling a tough line on immigration. So he’s insisted that the whole thing be dressed up as an anti-capitalist line instead. Say that the foreigners are coming over here taking our jobs and the Left howls. Say that the foreigners are being exploited by nasty corporates and the Left nods sagely. The result is that all the public see is an incoherent mess, as Labour launches an abortive class war against the people who sell them their bananas.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100230711/the-issue-with-chris-bryants-slow-motion-immigration-car-crash-isnt-the-incoherence-its-the-hypocrisy/
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100230593/the-innocence-that-makes-young-girls-so-vulnerable/


    "The age at which girls (and boys) reach puberty nowadays arrives almost two years earlier than it did for most baby-boomers. Girls who start menstruating at 11 are no longer unusual; boys’ choirs throughout Europe are having difficulty retaining members, because the choristers’ voices are breaking earlier than ever.

    The mixture of immature intellect and mature body, innocence and precociousness, confuses."

    I think the drop in the average age of puberty is part of the reason behind the tidal wave of rape and sexual assault in and around schools and the youth gang culture that the BBC and the political class won't talk about.
  • Gibraltar row: UK considering 'unprecedented' legal action

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23668589
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Well, misery likes company:

    Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby 11m
    Oh dear, this coming in from Madrid: Spain considers teaming up with Argentina 2 launch joint diplomatic offensive against the UK #gibraltar

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Gibraltar row: UK considering 'unprecedented' legal action

    Dave's falklands factor? is he turning into a lucky general?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    At the core of Chris Bryant's travails, there's a genuinely important point: in a world of mass immigration, to what extent is it legitimate for employers to take advantage of the increased supply of labour to keep wage costs down?


    Why would they do anything else?

    Someone with a long-term investment in a country/county/city may turn out to be a better long/term bet as a productive employee than one who is mobile and willing to move around. So even if they cost more in the short term you get more from them in the long term.

    Sounds like something from a UKIP leaflet, I like it!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Top rated comment under that article

    Roy Hattersley MP wrote in the Guardian in 2009 -

    'For most of my thirty three years in Westminster I was able to resist Sparsbrooks (his constituency) demands about the great issues of national policy - otherwise my first decade would have been spent opposing all Commonwealth immigration and my last calling for withdrawl from the European Union. That will not be a problem anymore, for as of 2009 Sparsbrook was 79.3 per cent non-white and at council level was represented by Respect, a predominantly Muslim party that campaigns on a platform of opposition to the Iraq war and support for the Palestinian
    people.'

    In keeping with the usual hypocrisy of our liberal leftist masters Hatersley has retired to the multi-culti epicentre that is rural Derbyshire."
  • England all out.

    Aussies need 299 to win
  • UKIP MEP shortlists are out. Members have now to rank candidates.

    Patrick O'Flynn is standing in East. Diane James is in SE shortlist. Middlesbrough and South Shields candidate standing in East. Roger Helmer is standing again. Barnsley Central and Rotherham woman standing in Yorkshire.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Has Spain forgiven Argentina for that Repsol business then? I thought there were multi-billion dollar lawsuits outstanding over that.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    UKIP MEP shortlists are out. Members have now to rank candidates.

    Patrick O'Flynn is standing in East. Diane James is in SE shortlist. Middlesbrough and South Shields candidate standing in East. Roger Helmer is standing again. Barnsley Central and Rotherham woman standing in Yorkshire.

    Is Diane James not going to be the Eastleigh candidate in 2015?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Has Spain forgiven Argentina for that Repsol business then?

    The Spaniards have taken leave of their senses. Goodness knows what the rest of the EU is thinking.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited August 2013
    UKIP Euro shortlists

    South East

    Nigel Farage MEP
    Janice Atkinson
    Ray Finch
    Diane James
    Nigel Jones
    Simon Strutt
    Patricia Culligan
    Alan Stevens
    Donna Edmunds
    Barry Cooper

    South West

    Gawain Towler
    Julia Reid
    Tony McIntyre
    William Dartmouth MEP
    Keith Crawford
    Robert Smith

    London

    Paul Oakley
    Gerard Batten MEP
    Andrew McNeilis
    Anthony Brown
    Elizabeth Jones
    Lawrence Webb
    Alastair McFarlane
    Peter Whittle

    East

    Patrick O'Flynn
    Stuart Agnew MEP
    Tim Aker
    Andrew Smith
    Michael Heaver
    Andy Monk
    Mick McGough


    West Midlands

    Jill Seymour
    Phil Henrick
    Bill Etheridge
    James Carver
    Michael Wrench
    Michael Green
    Lyndon Jones

    East Midlands

    Roger Helmer MEP
    Margot Parker
    Jonathan Bullock
    Barry Mahoney
    Nigel Wickens

    Yorkshire

    Godfrey Bloom MEP
    Jane Collins
    Jason Smith
    Amjad Bashir
    Mike Hookem
    Gary Shores

    North East

    Jonathan Arnott
    John Tennant
    Richard Elvin


    North West

    Paul Nuttall MEP
    Michael McManus
    Louise Bours
    Shneur Odze
    Steven Woolfe
    Lee Slaughter
    Peter Harper
    Simon Noble

    Scotland

    David Coburn
    Mike Scott-Hayward
    Christopher Monckton
    Otto Inglis
    Paul Henke
    Malcolm Macaskill
    Ross Durance
    Steven McKeane
    Kevin Newton





  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    taffys said:

    Has Spain forgiven Argentina for that Repsol business then?

    The Spaniards have taken leave of their senses. Goodness knows what the rest of the EU is thinking.

    Bizarre that they would choose to do it in the height of holiday season - how long before we see a Sun front page suggesting we don't buy their sangria..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Indeed, Mr. Flashman (deceased). If this continues then very few Britons will be going on holiday to Spain or its territories.

  • Hmm - The Times are reporting that Channel 4 have a tesco whistleblower re the Bryant allegations
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Bizarre that they would choose to do it in the height of holiday season - how long before we see a Sun front page suggesting we don't buy their sangria....''

    Maybe the UK is treading carefully because of the huge number of expats who are resident in Spain (or on holiday there) . If so, that's very sensible.

    Turns out all that sun and cheap property wasn't such a good deal after all....???
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107

    Random said:

    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government gets into political difficulties?
    With all due respect, but I think it's rather more likely that if they did they would have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK, what with us not being in Schengen, and they'd rather have control free access to britain than Spain, what with them being British and all:-/
    If it was me I'd rather have border-control-free access to the large land-mass right next door, not to mention having them implemented by a country that wanted to be helpful nor one that wanted to screw me around.
    Ignoring for the moment your obvious disdain for the Gibraltarians right to choose their own identity (being British is worth less than not having to flash your passport to get to La Linea? Really?) what evidence do you have that "country that wanted to be helpful" has ever been an accurate description of Spain's attitude to Gibraltar? Or indeed would ever be so?
  • Last but not least...Wales


    Nathan Gill
    James Cole
    Gareth Dunn
    David Rowlands
    Caroline Jones
    Martyn Ford
    Brian Morris
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    We can't accuse Mr Bryant of not adding to the gaiety of the nation:

    "Chris Bryant.....belted into the driver's seat of a rhetorical red mini metro, he careered through the political media, ploughing into bollards, oncoming traffic, tourists and both mounted cavalrymen outside Horseguards.

    Just to ensure the job was done properly, he brought his political road-trip to a halt by effecting a head-on collision with an Alan Partridge-style joke about how easy it is to mistakenly think obese women are pregnant. The metaphorical car is definitely a write-off."

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/leftwatch/2013/08/chris-bryants-immigration-speech-isnt-just-a-car-crash-its-a-full-on-bollard-smashing-rampage.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF said:

    I think today is proof that OGH and tim were right to suggest it was madness for Labour to announce any policies.

    Ahem...

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2010/11/24/sam-asks-should-it-be-really-cool-hand-ed/
  • Bufton (Wales), Clark (East Midlands) and Colman (South West) are retiring. Natrassh (West Midlands) first said he was retiring and then he changed his mind and now it seems he has been deselected.

    Roger Helmer was retiring when he was in the Conservatives. Now he's standing again as UKIP.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    I think today is proof that OGH and tim were right to suggest it was madness for Labour to announce any policies.

    Ahem...

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2010/11/24/sam-asks-should-it-be-really-cool-hand-ed/
    Sam - I am suggesting that nevermind the "no policies until just before the election" strategy - after today it should be no policies ever - even in government.

    Its the only way Labour can win.
  • Recent by-elections candidates in UKIP shortlists:

    Diane James (Eastleigh)
    Richard Elvin (Middlesbrough and South Shields)
    Jane Collins (Rotherham and Barnsley Central)
    Margot Parker (Corby)

    Otto Inglis (Aberdeen Donside)
    Nathan Gill (Ynys Mon)
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Indeed, Mr. Flashman (deceased). If this continues then very few Britons will be going on holiday to Spain or its territories.

    There are already 400,000 (?) Britons living in Spain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10142162/Retiring-Britons-fall-out-of-love-with-Spain-and-France.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Dave, living and holidays are different things.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    UKIP Euro shortlists

    West Midlands

    Jill Seymour
    Phil Henrick
    Bill Etheridge
    James Carver
    Michael Wrench
    Michael Green
    Lyndon Jones

    Set irony meters to 'stun' folks
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Plato said:

    Top rated comment under that article

    Roy Hattersley MP wrote in the Guardian in 2009 -

    'For most of my thirty three years in Westminster I was able to resist Sparsbrooks (his constituency) demands about the great issues of national policy - otherwise my first decade would have been spent opposing all Commonwealth immigration and my last calling for withdrawl from the European Union. That will not be a problem anymore, for as of 2009 Sparsbrook was 79.3 per cent non-white and at council level was represented by Respect, a predominantly Muslim party that campaigns on a platform of opposition to the Iraq war and support for the Palestinian
    people.'

    In keeping with the usual hypocrisy of our liberal leftist masters Hatersley has retired to the multi-culti epicentre that is rural Derbyshire."

    If he was talking about a tribe somewhere up the Amazon that would be genocide.
  • @tpfkar

    there's a Michael Green also in East of England LD list IIRC.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,826
    For spain to moan about Gibralter is a bit rich given they have two enclaves in Morocco -Ceuta and Melilia that are in a simalar situation to Gibralter
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited August 2013
    "Hmm - The Times are reporting that Channel 4 have a tesco whistleblower re the Bryant allegations"

    http://blogs.channel4.com/siobhan-kennedy/worker-blows-whistle-tescos-recruitment-tactics/

    Less of a whistleblower and more the Union Rep for the site (doesn't mean his claims aren't true).

    Also not exactly an exclusive...

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm130510/debtext/130510-0003.htm

    Just repeating what he already told the local MP several months ago.

    Another than that its a massive scoop for C4
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited August 2013
    Random said:

    Random said:

    That would open all sorts of cans of Eurosceptic worms.

    There must be pills for that, surely it's better than letting the Spanish dick them around with border controls and things whenever their government gets into political difficulties?
    With all due respect, but I think it's rather more likely that if they did they would have to introduce border controls with the rest of the UK, what with us not being in Schengen, and they'd rather have control free access to britain than Spain, what with them being British and all:-/
    If it was me I'd rather have border-control-free access to the large land-mass right next door, not to mention having them implemented by a country that wanted to be helpful nor one that wanted to screw me around.
    Ignoring for the moment your obvious disdain for the Gibraltarians right to choose their own identity (being British is worth less than not having to flash your passport to get to La Linea? Really?) what evidence do you have that "country that wanted to be helpful" has ever been an accurate description of Spain's attitude to Gibraltar? Or indeed would ever be so?
    I didn't say anything affecting their right to choose their own identity either way. My point is that since the Spanish are trying to make customs controls as painful as possible, whereas the British would presumably want them to be relatively painless, it would make more sense to join Schengen so that the Spanish weren't allowed to run any custom controls, let alone painful ones, and they had to deal with British customs instead, which presumably wouldn't be designed to make things difficult for them.
  • Not sure that Gibraltar is part of EU territory, so Schengen may well be a no-no. If Gib were part of EU Spanish folk could move in freely and, in quite short time, there'd be a majority for unification with Spain.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,826
    Don't Gibralter people vote in Euro elections (part of the sputh east England seat )? Suggests it is part of EU?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If this gib thing isn;t resolved locally, it will be fascinating to see which way the EU jumps on it.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Not sure that Gibraltar is part of EU territory, so Schengen may well be a no-no. If Gib were part of EU Spanish folk could move in freely and, in quite short time, there'd be a majority for unification with Spain.

    It is part of theEU..
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited August 2013

    Not sure that Gibraltar is part of EU territory, so Schengen may well be a no-no. If Gib were part of EU Spanish folk could move in freely and, in quite short time, there'd be a majority for unification with Spain.

    Apparently it is part of the EU, but they have some opt-outs, including the CAP.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Gibraltar

    Which gives us a solution to all kinds of constitutional problems including British EU renegotiation: Scotland becomes independent, and becomes the successor state to the United Kingdom. At the same time the rest of the UK declares itself to be part of Gibraltar, and inherits its opt-out from the CAP.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107
    edited August 2013

    For spain to moan about Gibralter is a bit rich given they have two enclaves in Morocco -Ceuta and Melilia that are in a simalar situation to Gibralter

    The even more brazen piece of hypocrisy is the Portuguese town of Olivenza which the Spanish have held on to in flagrant defiance of international law since 1815 - they acquired it about a decade earlier in alliance with Napoleon and agreed to give it back at the Congress of Vienna. Needless to say they have not done so, so and have effectively ethnically cleansed the Portuguese population of the area and replaced them with native Spaniards.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    The Defence Secretary has previously told Parliament that the first of the new carriers will commence sea trials in 2017, but rumours from Marham reach me that suggest sea trials may begin in 2014.

    I know there are a couple of people on here who have more knowledge of these matters than I - this became clear when the government had to announce it was giving up on the catapults - so is anyone willing to confirm the date one way or the other?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,573
    SeanT said:

    Did a blog on fracking and Scotland. Now all the Kippers hate me coz I made a tiny little gag about dogging.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100230698/will-fracking-halve-the-price-of-oil-and-destroy-the-economic-case-for-an-independent-scotland/

    Sigh. The perils of blogging. OGH has my comradely sympathy.

    Bufo the UKIP bullfrog seems to have taken exception to your article.
  • Not sure that Gibraltar is part of EU territory, so Schengen may well be a no-no. If Gib were part of EU Spanish folk could move in freely and, in quite short time, there'd be a majority for unification with Spain.

    It is part of theEU..

    Yup, it is - but with special status.

  • RandomRandom Posts: 107


    I didn't say anything affecting their right to choose their own identity either way. My point is that since the Spanish are trying to make customs controls as painful as possible, whereas the British would presumably want them to be relatively painless, it would make more sense to join Schengen so that the Spanish weren't allowed to run any custom controls, let alone painful ones, and they had to deal with British customs instead, which presumably wouldn't be designed to make things difficult for them.

    Yes, you did. Saying people should put convenience commercial considerations ahead of their national identity is being pretty clear about how little you think the latter is worth, even if you don't realise it.

    As for the Schengen Agreement preventing the Spaniards from doing what they're doing now - evidence, please? The British government pretty clearly feels that what the Spaniards are doing is already illegal, otherwise Cameron wouldn't be threatening to sue. If they're prepared to let politics trump law now, why would it be any different if gibraltar was in Schengen?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Surely Alistair Darling's career as CoE is one of reasons Labour has a bad reputation for economic competence.

    But what about his economic forcasts, they were ...........

    Oh

    I see what you mean.
  • Pulpstar said:

    SeanT said:

    Did a blog on fracking and Scotland. Now all the Kippers hate me coz I made a tiny little gag about dogging.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100230698/will-fracking-halve-the-price-of-oil-and-destroy-the-economic-case-for-an-independent-scotland/

    Sigh. The perils of blogging. OGH has my comradely sympathy.

    Bufo the UKIP bullfrog seems to have taken exception to your article.
    SEAN THOMAS - I CHALLENGE YOU EITHER TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF OR APOLOGISE

    "Dogging" is engaging in sexual acts in a public place or watching others do so.
    This is an offensive and gratuitous insult and has no relevance to the article.
    As a DT blogger you have a responsibility to observe certain standards.
    If you do not retract I intend to take the matter further.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    Random said:


    I didn't say anything affecting their right to choose their own identity either way. My point is that since the Spanish are trying to make customs controls as painful as possible, whereas the British would presumably want them to be relatively painless, it would make more sense to join Schengen so that the Spanish weren't allowed to run any custom controls, let alone painful ones, and they had to deal with British customs instead, which presumably wouldn't be designed to make things difficult for them.

    Yes, you did. Saying people should put convenience commercial considerations ahead of their national identity is being pretty clear about how little you think the latter is worth, even if you don't realise it.

    As for the Schengen Agreement preventing the Spaniards from doing what they're doing now - evidence, please? The British government pretty clearly feels that what the Spaniards are doing is already illegal, otherwise Cameron wouldn't be threatening to sue. If they're prepared to let politics trump law now, why would it be any different if gibraltar was in Schengen?
    I didn't say they should put convenience commercial considerations ahead of their national identity, their national identity is nothing to do with whether they're in Schengen or not.

    It's not really clear what kind of case Cameron thinks he has now - the reporting's a bit vague. It's not obvious that the Spanish are in violation of anything even if they're holding people up on purpose, and even if they are they'd presumably be able to tweak their checks to preserve plausible deniability. If Gibraltar was in Schengen the checks wouldn't be allowed, so they'd have a slam-dunk legal case, which the Commission would certainly be interested in pursuing.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Plato , " If I worked for Tesco/Next and been described 'unscrupulous' I'd be livid. "

    I'm sure that the NHS employs more Eastern Europeans than either Tesco or Next. I await Bryant's attack on the recruitment policies of the NHS with barely bated breath.

    Funny you should mention that....

    Not Eastern Europeans but Southern Europeans

    Here is a blog post from my local MP that I read the other day and which stuck in my mind.

    http://bobrussell.org.uk/en/article/2013/711868/sir-bob-s-diary-saturday-3rd-august

    "One of the staff I met was a Spanish male nurse, one of 70 nurses from Spain which the Colchester Hospital University Trust has recruited in the past few weeks as part of a major drive to boost nursing numbers - there is a shortage of trained British nurses "

    I have heard some very good things about Sir Bob and will be meeting him in a couple of weeks time.
  • SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    SeanT said:

    Did a blog on fracking and Scotland. Now all the Kippers hate me coz I made a tiny little gag about dogging.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100230698/will-fracking-halve-the-price-of-oil-and-destroy-the-economic-case-for-an-independent-scotland/

    Sigh. The perils of blogging. OGH has my comradely sympathy.

    Bufo the UKIP bullfrog seems to have taken exception to your article.
    lol, yes. He seems a bit over-sensitive on the issue. Perhaps dogging IS a little-known Kipper hobby, and I touched a nerve.
    Perhaps he went to a dogging meeting, and no one wanted to make the beast with two backs with him?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, your last two comments seem to have a very different feel to them. Are both by you, or did someone accidentally post one under your name?
  • Mr. Eagles, your last two comments seem to have a very different feel to them. Are both by you, or did someone accidentally post one under your name?

    The comment asking SeanT to explain himself was a comment from the telegraph blogs, by a poster enraged by Mr T's article.
  • @Pong

    The Day Today/Chris Morris would have had so much fun with today's politicians
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Ah, right. Sorry. I thought you'd gone mad.
This discussion has been closed.