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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Author & ex-political journalist, Robert Harris, suggests TMay

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Author & ex-political journalist, Robert Harris, suggests TMay might be making Heath’s 1974 mistake

May reminiscent of Heath in 74. Called an opportunistic election when far ahead in polls & then campaign unravelled under scrutiny

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047
    Good point by Robert but there's one thing. Corbyn is not Harold Wilson.

    I found this very interesting:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/29/harrow-west-labour-leaning-focus-group-may-not-be-all-it-seems
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Still happy with 50 maj if we get that....
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    edited May 2017
    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/869470975917686784

    She should publicise that more and do more of them. It actually reveals her personality - something she is often accused of lacking.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    You mean she's going to take Middlesbrough out of Yorkshire.

    Hurrah.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    As relaxed and easy going as a crab putting on a condom.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited May 2017

    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.

    This Tory campaign hasn't been very good.

    They've displayed all the arrogance and hubris of Emperor Palpatine when he allowed the Rebel Alliance to know the location of the second Death Star.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Hmm - From what I can work out May seems to be about on a par with Ted Heath, whereas Corbyn is definitely sub Wilson though.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Eagles, indeed, and instead of having the shield generator/manifesto protected by Darth Vader/Lynton Crosby, it's been wrecked by ewoks/Nick Timothy.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    What I am left wondering about is what happens if Corbyn wins? The EU is all set for negotiating with Mrs May and both she and her ministers have been preparing for this for some time.

    But Corbyn and Team Labour?

    If they are prepared for the EU negotiations I would be astounded.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited May 2017

    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.

    This Tory campaign hasn't been very good.

    They've displayed all the arrogance and hubris of Emperor Palpatine when he allowed the Rebel Alliance to know the location of the second Death Star.
    Corbyn will find May's weapon is quite operational
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    You mean she's going to take Middlesbrough out of Yorkshire.

    Hurrah.

    Or become a gay boat owner?

    Trying to make parallels with Heath ... this is thin gruel to say the least.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mrs C, I believe the procedure is for Four Horsemen to appear on the horizon.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    edited May 2017
    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.

    Corbyn is having a blinding campaign and winning it hands down. If I was a dispassionate and objective neutral I'd vote Labour. No question. I really fear for the outcome next week, i increasingly feel a loss of Tory majority given they will clearly lose some seats to Labour and the Lib Dems and particularly as folk are already voting. Our postal ballots arrived yesterday. At best we'll get a two-day of the 2015 outcome with a majority around 10. Is May actually going to do anything in the next week to make sure she properly wins this? I'm really not sure what the Tories have in the tank. Anyone would think the Tories were sprung into an election they didn't expect whilst Labour had a campaign plan ready just in case. Perhaps that is the reality.

    I remain depressed.

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    FPT:
    IanB2 said:



    Doesn't change the fact that any annual tax you put on property owners will land on the back of tenants not property owners. By definition the have nots of our society.

    Ian: another problem with this proposal is that while it initially seems fair, first of all your stats are way out of date; people move on average between every 12 and 28 years (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-3091272/Homeowners-waiting-28-years-house-moves-housing-shortage-pushes-prices-up.html). People are moving less often exactly I suspect because the tax in doing so is so punitive.

    Stamp duty is a constructive transaction tax levied at up to 5 or 600 per cent. If you move sideways from a £1 million flat in Highgate to a £1 million house in Edgware (neither of which are lavish levels of housing in London), the transaction costs are going to be £20k or so, but the tax on top will be over twice that. At £1.5 million even more so it will be 4x the transaction cost. This is assuming sideways movement with no new money added, extracted or otherwise painlessly available to be handed over.

    The tax on changing your house is thus similar to what is levied on cigarettes and far higher than what is levied on drink and petrol. Presumably we are not meant to do it.

    A remarkable further farce is that if you buy a £15 million oligarch property in London, the stamp duty will be over £1.7 million. If instead you buy ten £1.5 million properties, the stamp duty, even including the 3% second property penalty on nine of them, will be half a million less. Someone buying these as a store of value has every incentive to buy 10 flats to be left empty rather than one.

    If you convert stamp duty into an annual tax, you are effectively turning everybody into a leaseholder. You would never really own your home because the government might tax you out of it.

    I don't know what the solution is but it is clear that this problem is having a profound effect on the urban landscape. When it costs £100k to move sideways, a lot of people spend that on a hideous extension instead, with Golders Green as a result.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    The difference is the opponent. Jeremy Corbyn is not Harold Wilson.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/869470975917686784

    That's actually a really human interview. Unforced and uncontrived. Not trying to force talking points into it. Quite nice, really.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    As relaxed and easy going as a crab putting on a condom.
    After they raised the Mary Rose from the seabed, archeologists were amazed to find a surviving sailor who vhad taken refuge in a sails locker. On emerging from his watery prison, the sailors first words were ;Is Chris Tavare off his mark yet?'
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The Tories are dangerously close to recycling Hillary Clintons campaign. It can't be long before someone official calls Corbyn supporters the 'deplorables' (or equivalent).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Sykes, not long to go. Chin up.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    Tbf to crabs, their attempts at foreplay must often be misconstrued.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Blue_rog said:

    As relaxed and easy going as a crab putting on a condom.
    After they raised the Mary Rose from the seabed, archeologists were amazed to find a surviving sailor who vhad taken refuge in a sails locker. On emerging from his watery prison, the sailors first words were ;Is Chris Tavare off his mark yet?'
    If you had one cricket ball in one hand and another cricket ball in your other hand, what would you have?

    A bloody big cricket.
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    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.

    This Tory campaign hasn't been very good.

    They've displayed all the arrogance and hubris of Emperor Palpatine when he allowed the Rebel Alliance to know the location of the second Death Star.
    I remember that being said in 1987, 1992 and I think 2015.

    That the Tory campaign was no good, I mean. Not where the second Death Star was.

    The Death Star was in fact a gross waste of imperial taxpayers' money. It was better than the NHS IT project, in that it worked. But if you want a weapon that will wipe out everyone on a planet you are much better off with Sir Ridley's alien, which helpfully dies as soon as it's killed everybody.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Mrs C, I believe the procedure is for Four Horsemen to appear on the horizon.

    I shall keep an eye out for them.... ;)

    Election night TV is going to be interesting.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.

    This Tory campaign hasn't been very good.

    They've displayed all the arrogance and hubris of Emperor Palpatine when he allowed the Rebel Alliance to know the location of the second Death Star.
    I remember that being said in 1987, 1992 and I think 2015.

    That the Tory campaign was no good, I mean. Not where the second Death Star was.

    The Death Star was in fact a gross waste of imperial taxpayers' money. It was better than the NHS IT project, in that it worked. But if you want a weapon that will wipe out everyone on a planet you are much better off with Sir Ridley's alien, which helpfully dies as soon as it's killed everybody.
    I knew the Tory campaign of 2015 was brilliant because I was out campaigning.

    Obviously you've not seen Sir Ridley's Alien: Covenant, which sucked more than a hooker that swallowed a Dyson.
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    If I was a dispassionate and objective neutral I'd vote Labour.

    Unless said neutral reflected on the likely result of doing so.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Talking of crabs....

    twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/869198997033975808

    I never did like oysters, now I really do not like oysters.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Biggest difference from 1974 to now.

    Farron vs Thorpe.
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    Why did TM choose a six-week campaign? If her message was 'Strong & Stable' plus 'Corbyn is a wrong 'un' which it essentially is then surely a short, sharp four-week campaign was the sensible call?
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    edited May 2017
    Also, I was canvassed by Labour yesterday (Bury South, Labour held and in theory a Tory target). I said I'd vote Tory, they made no attempt to argue with me and just trudged off gloomily before I had an opportunity for some debate about Corbyn etc. That said they looked a well disciplined organised group of about a dozen activists targeting each house all well marshalled by the local councillor. The Tories have so far just leafleted and sent me a letter in the post from Theresa. Perhaps it's not really a target or they think our street is in the bag for them. Interestingly we never saw any Labour canvassers at all in 2015 (we didn't live here in 2010) and the activist who spoke to me didn't even mention Labour he said "will I be voting to re elect Ivan Lewis next week?".
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    The Tories are dangerously close to recycling Hillary Clintons campaign. It can't be long before someone official calls Corbyn supporters the 'deplorables' (or equivalent).

    Ah Jonathan's daily May = Hilary post.

    Now we all have to have our daily scratch of heads at the comparison - that Hilary coat tailled into power on the back of her charismatic husband whilst May got their on her own seems to pass supporters of the party never to have had a woman leader by..
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Mr. Eagles, indeed, and instead of having the shield generator/manifesto protected by Darth Vader/Lynton Crosby, it's been wrecked by ewoks/Nick Timothy.

    Nick Timothy has ruined the betting position of so many punters.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    Morning Sexy PB'ers,

    The British people generally don't like being sent to the polls needlessly...
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Why did TM choose a six-week campaign? If her message was 'Strong & Stable' plus 'Corbyn is a wrong 'un' which it essentially is then surely a short, sharp four-week campaign was the sensible call?

    She had no choice without calling it on half term week which the Tories wouldn't want.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    Why did TM choose a six-week campaign? If her message was 'Strong & Stable' plus 'Corbyn is a wrong 'un' which it essentially is then surely a short, sharp four-week campaign was the sensible call?

    No doubt she thought the campaign would reduce Labour support, and the longer it went on the greater the reduction would be. Rather than the precise opposite.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Why did TM choose a six-week campaign? If her message was 'Strong & Stable' plus 'Corbyn is a wrong 'un' which it essentially is then surely a short, sharp four-week campaign was the sensible call?

    She had to factor in an extra fortnight if Labour didn't agree to an early election, and she had to no confidence herself, as per the provisions of the FTPA
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Eagles, I do sympathise (it's not unlike Button's stupid move in Monaco ruining a good 6.5 bet). I'm mostly ok because most of my bets were on Conservatives in Scotland or for the Lib Dems to do poorly overall.

    How's your spread betting position?

    King of Langley, I believe it was necessary for the timetable, in case Labour hadn't voted for it.

    Mrs C, but election night on PB will be much better :D
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Also, I was canvassed by Labour yesterday (Bury South, Labour held and in theory a Tory target). I said I'd vote Tory, they made no attempt to argue with me and just trudged off gloomily before I had an opportunity for some debate about Corbyn etc.

    Why would they debate with you? You are clearly impure of thought and mind, but they have your name and address now and when Comrade Corbyn wins the election your place in the Gulag is assured :D

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    Morning Sexy PB'ers,

    The British people generally don't like being sent to the polls needlessly...

    Lab GAIN Maidenhead ?!?

    Perhaps not ....
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822

    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.


    She wasn't *THAT* bad! I scored it Jezza 6 and Tezza 5.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    What should be plainly transparent to all those ignorant voters who think that Jeremy Corbyn is a "very nice man" is, that, he is clearly not. He is the "smiley face" for a team of very dangerous people behind him, who have no love for this country, and want to destroy it from within.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Mr. Eagles, I do sympathise (it's not unlike Button's stupid move in Monaco ruining a good 6.5 bet). I'm mostly ok because most of my bets were on Conservatives in Scotland or for the Lib Dems to do poorly overall.

    How's your spread betting position?

    King of Langley, I believe it was necessary for the timetable, in case Labour hadn't voted for it.

    Mrs C, but election night on PB will be much better :D

    I bought the Cons at 378, closed out at 396.

    Still have an open position on my Lib Dem sell at 24ish.

    So I'll be ok.

    Just frustrating that instead of looking at a mahoosive three figure majority, we've got Tory candidates complaining about that fecking dementia tax.

    The policy principle is fine, just so poorly expressed.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Morning Sexy PB'ers,

    The British people generally don't like being sent to the polls needlessly...

    Lab GAIN Maidenhead ?!?

    Perhaps not ....
    Morning Mr Jack.

    Do you think it all feels rather like 1987?
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Some interesting snippets from last night's programme, is Seamus Milne coming on at half-time and took Jeremy Corbyn off "for a chat". The PM apparently stayed on set and chatted to some of the audience.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2017
    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams, Anthony Crosland, Tony Benn

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.
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    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461

    What should be plainly transparent to all those ignorant voters who think that Jeremy Corbyn is a "very nice man" is, that, he is clearly not. He is the "smiley face" for a team of very dangerous people behind him, who have no love for this country, and want to destroy it from within.

    Lady Bucket. Are you perchance related to the Maidenhead Glumbuckets?
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited May 2017

    Mr. Eagles, I do sympathise (it's not unlike Button's stupid move in Monaco ruining a good 6.5 bet). I'm mostly ok because most of my bets were on Conservatives in Scotland or for the Lib Dems to do poorly overall.

    How's your spread betting position?

    King of Langley, I believe it was necessary for the timetable, in case Labour hadn't voted for it.

    Mrs C, but election night on PB will be much better :D

    I bought the Cons at 378, closed out at 396.

    Still have an open position on my Lib Dem sell at 24ish.

    So I'll be ok.

    Just frustrating that instead of looking at a mahoosive three figure majority, we've got Tory candidates complaining about that fecking dementia tax.

    The policy principle is fine, just so poorly expressed.
    And so, how would you express it?

    Care is expensive. We’re not paying enough in tax to fund social care. The future is worse than the present.

    It is difficult to spin or sugar-coat that any other way.

    Cameron simply legislated that a magic wand will appear in 2020 (Dilmot) when he had already stated he would step down before then.

    Cameron left a steaming pile for his successor, and his successor has to clear up the mess.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    What I am left wondering about is what happens if Corbyn wins? The EU is all set for negotiating with Mrs May and both she and her ministers have been preparing for this for some time.

    But Corbyn and Team Labour?

    If they are prepared for the EU negotiations I would be astounded.

    Very true. They would have a very steep learning curve.
    On the plus side - they are more realistic on immigration and are probably 'closer' to the EU negotiating position than the Tories.

    And to be fair - they had almost no time or warning to prepare a manifesto - and they seem to have done a much better job of that.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176

    Mr. Eagles, I do sympathise (it's not unlike Button's stupid move in Monaco ruining a good 6.5 bet). I'm mostly ok because most of my bets were on Conservatives in Scotland or for the Lib Dems to do poorly overall.

    How's your spread betting position?

    King of Langley, I believe it was necessary for the timetable, in case Labour hadn't voted for it.

    Mrs C, but election night on PB will be much better :D

    I bought the Cons at 378, closed out at 396.

    Still have an open position on my Lib Dem sell at 24ish.

    So I'll be ok.

    Just frustrating that instead of looking at a mahoosive three figure majority, we've got Tory candidates complaining about that fecking dementia tax.

    The policy principle is fine, just so poorly expressed.
    She did sort of tell the old buffer in the audience that under current policy they'd lose their home if they needed residential care but it was lost in waffle and bluster, beads of sweat on her forehead, and wasn't the opening point it should have been. As with the manifesto launch and immediate response.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Eagles, think you'll be fine on the Lib Dems.

    I'm just going to back them a little at over 11.5 seats (simply to square up some of my other positions), at 1.83 with Ladbrokes.

    Morley & Outwood - had a couple of pieces of literature from Dawson (Lab candidate). Still 5 on Betfair Sportsbook to take the seat. May be worth a look. I think Jenkyns [Con] will retain it, but it's closer than those odds imply, I feel.

    Only 3 parties standing here, (those two and Lib Dems).
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003
    GeoffM said:

    Blue_rog said:

    As relaxed and easy going as a crab putting on a condom.
    After they raised the Mary Rose from the seabed, archeologists were amazed to find a surviving sailor who vhad taken refuge in a sails locker. On emerging from his watery prison, the sailors first words were ;Is Chris Tavare off his mark yet?'
    If you had one cricket ball in one hand and another cricket ball in your other hand, what would you have?

    A bloody big cricket.
    Louis CK: Why does it take 5 days? Do you have to catch the ball in your asshole?
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Mrs C, but election night on PB will be much better :D

    As I recall from the last one, posts were building up so quick that PB was "scrolling" faster than the subtitles on the BBC.

    I would like to think that the Exit Poll result declared at 22:01 will be sufficient and I can go to bed, but I know I will probably be cracking out a bottle of wine and some munchies. Of course if the Exit Poll says "Tories to win 125 seats" then I may stay up to pack my suitcase a bit quicker....
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams, Anthony Crosland, Tony Benn

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Same thing applies to the Tories, of course. The difference being that May has been picking from a full team; while Corbyn has not.

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Pulpstar said:

    Biggest difference from 1974 to now.

    Farron vs Thorpe.

    What's the difference?

    Thorpe was a closet homosexual constantly fearing exposure and Farron definitely definitely definitely doesn't like it up the bottom. Oh no siree, definitely not a fan of that sort of thing. No.

    Ah yes, there's the difference.
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    Interesting quote from 1974. The dog that hasn't barked at all in this election is unions.

    Why have the tories not made more of Labour's plans to restore many union powers? I haven't heard anything AT ALL from them on this. Very odd.

    This Tory campaign hasn't been very good.

    They've displayed all the arrogance and hubris of Emperor Palpatine when he allowed the Rebel Alliance to know the location of the second Death Star.
    I remember that being said in 1987, 1992 and I think 2015.

    That the Tory campaign was no good, I mean. Not where the second Death Star was.

    The Death Star was in fact a gross waste of imperial taxpayers' money. It was better than the NHS IT project, in that it worked. But if you want a weapon that will wipe out everyone on a planet you are much better off with Sir Ridley's alien, which helpfully dies as soon as it's killed everybody.
    I knew the Tory campaign of 2015 was brilliant because I was out campaigning.

    Obviously you've not seen Sir Ridley's Alien: Covenant, which sucked more than a hooker that swallowed a Dyson.
    I've seen all of them, the first two probably 40 to 50 times and the rest less right down to AvP and Covenant once because that was all they deserved.

    I am convinced Sir Diddley Squat is a sort of Flashman of film. Everything looks good but there's nothing behind any of it apart from fluke. His Director's Cut of Blade Runner showed conclusively - by removing all the ambiguity - he didn't understand his own film and Prometheus showed that he didn't realise in 1978 that 'alien' was an adjective as well as a noun (effectively he made its title inaccurate ex post).
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    Paul Waugh:

    Some commentators suggest that May’s ‘done a Ted Heath’, when he called a general election in 1974, asking ‘who runs Britain?’ only to get the answer ‘not you’. But in fact 2017 may more resemble 1987. That’s when the last sitting female Tory PM increased her majority despite a dire campaign, not because of it. And the underlying reason would be support from working class Leave voters, Labour, UKIP and Tory alike.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/05/30/waugh-zone-special-may-v-_n_16876504.html?1496134715
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    What I am left wondering about is what happens if Corbyn wins? The EU is all set for negotiating with Mrs May and both she and her ministers have been preparing for this for some time.

    But Corbyn and Team Labour?

    If they are prepared for the EU negotiations I would be astounded.

    Very true. They would have a very steep learning curve.
    On the plus side - they are more realistic on immigration and are probably 'closer' to the EU negotiating position than the Tories.

    And to be fair - they had almost no time or warning to prepare a manifesto - and they seem to have done a much better job of that.
    If by "much better job" you mean they threw together a wishlist of pleasant things to do if the government had an infinite supply of money and no deficit in order to bribe voters then yes they did a much better job.

    If you mean a "much better job" in that it is a plausible alternative program of government that can be implemented realistically ... then I would beg to disagree.

    Governance isn't about telling everyone what they want to hear.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Paul Waugh:

    Some commentators suggest that May’s ‘done a Ted Heath’, when he called a general election in 1974, asking ‘who runs Britain?’ only to get the answer ‘not you’. But in fact 2017 may more resemble 1987. That’s when the last sitting female Tory PM increased her majority despite a dire campaign, not because of it. And the underlying reason would be support from working class Leave voters, Labour, UKIP and Tory alike.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/05/30/waugh-zone-special-may-v-_n_16876504.html?1496134715

    Mrs Thatcher didn't increase her majority in 1987.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    GIN1138 said:

    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.


    She wasn't *THAT* bad! I scored it Jezza 6 and Tezza 5.

    If I remember correctly, Bob was exactly the same before the least GE.

    May was fine last night. Did all she needed to do. Corbyn was a lot better than expected, but his answers on security generally and the Falklands specifically would not have convinced anyone who was not already going to vote Labour.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    GeoffM said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biggest difference from 1974 to now.

    Farron vs Thorpe.

    What's the difference?

    Thorpe was a closet homosexual constantly fearing exposure and Farron definitely definitely definitely doesn't like it up the bottom. Oh no siree, definitely not a fan of that sort of thing. No.

    Ah yes, there's the difference.
    If Farron had found himself in Thorpe's position, he'd have been eaten alive.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    Pretty much - Whitelaw, Carrington, Hailsham, Macleod, Home, and of course big Mags fae Grantham.
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    New Facebook Tory advert about Brexit

    "Brexit negotiations with the EU look set to begin on 19th June – just 11 days after the General Election.

    Your vote will decide: Theresa May negotiating the best deal for Britain - or a Brexit shambles with Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott."

    I see they are now using the recognisably useless Diane Abbott.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    What I am left wondering about is what happens if Corbyn wins? The EU is all set for negotiating with Mrs May and both she and her ministers have been preparing for this for some time.

    But Corbyn and Team Labour?

    If they are prepared for the EU negotiations I would be astounded.

    A lot of the preparation will have been done by the civil servants rather than ministers and some of the technical details will still be relevant, but as Labour's priorities in negotiations are likely to be different to the Tories it will cause a bit of a problem.

    It was deeply irresponsible for May to call an election after triggering Article 50, after starting the two-year countdown. Holding an election was itself not a bad idea - the elected government will have a mandate for conducting negotiations on the basis it has set out in its manifesto - but the timing is awful.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Hammond looks to be superior to Barber to me, looking back "Pound won't fall *cough*"- I wasn't there at the time though !
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Remarkable how well they're polling then, if you think there's no problem with the Tory alternative.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    On topic: one lesson we can certainly draw from February 1974 (and May 2015, and for that matter last November) is that vote share doesn't equate to seat numbers. If it is the case that Labour are still piling up votes in London and the inner cities generally and the Tories are picking them up in marginal constituencies in the West Midlands, the North and Scotland, then that will be Mrs May's salvation.
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    Chris said:

    GeoffM said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biggest difference from 1974 to now.

    Farron vs Thorpe.

    What's the difference?

    Thorpe was a closet homosexual constantly fearing exposure and Farron definitely definitely definitely doesn't like it up the bottom. Oh no siree, definitely not a fan of that sort of thing. No.

    Ah yes, there's the difference.
    If Farron had found himself in Thorpe's position, he'd have been eaten alive.
    Could be worse though. Mark Oaten could so nearly have been LD leader by now. I guess after polls close he'd go and get shitfaced.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176

    GIN1138 said:

    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.


    She wasn't *THAT* bad! I scored it Jezza 6 and Tezza 5.

    If I remember correctly, Bob was exactly the same before the least GE.

    May was fine last night. Did all she needed to do. Corbyn was a lot better than expected, but his answers on security generally and the Falklands specifically would not have convinced anyone who was not already going to vote Labour.

    To be fair Cameron was rubbish in 2015 and should have romped home against Miliband, whom history will clearly judge as more unpopular and unelectable than Corbyn (whom lest we forget is edging closer and closer to No 10). The Tories are crap. But I believe in free markets and capitalism and living within our means. I've no option but to support them.....
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003
    Chris said:



    If Farron had found himself in Thorpe's position, he'd have been eaten alive.

    On Clapham Common in the middle of the night? You're probably right.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited May 2017
    The IRA and Falklands etc are feeding in to a narrative of unpatriotic behaviour by Corbyn. Some of the electorate will be swayed by the comments on him blaming Britain for the terror attack being tied to a general impression of hating Britain or disliking the British. By which I mean the WWC, the red kippers, the JAMs. It's a very specific faultline peculiarly dangerous to the Labour Party as currently commanded.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Chris said:

    GeoffM said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biggest difference from 1974 to now.

    Farron vs Thorpe.

    What's the difference?

    Thorpe was a closet homosexual constantly fearing exposure and Farron definitely definitely definitely doesn't like it up the bottom. Oh no siree, definitely not a fan of that sort of thing. No.

    Ah yes, there's the difference.
    If Farron had found himself in Thorpe's position, he'd have been eaten alive.
    Disappointed that you eschewed the colloquialism that would have more fittingly concluded that sentence, rather than your chosen two words, albeit at the cost of verging into mild homophobia.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Remarkable how well they're polling then, if you think there's no problem with the Tory alternative.
    It is remarkable that perhaps a third of voters, maybe even more, are seriously contemplating voting for what is undoubtedly the most disastrous team ever to present itself for government of the UK since modern democracy began.. All the same, you don't need to invent things about what I said.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    dr_spyn said:
    A jump of the 18-24 to 80%+ seems extremely likely then :D

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    GIN1138 said:

    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.


    She wasn't *THAT* bad! I scored it Jezza 6 and Tezza 5.

    If I remember correctly, Bob was exactly the same before the least GE.

    May was fine last night. Did all she needed to do. Corbyn was a lot better than expected, but his answers on security generally and the Falklands specifically would not have convinced anyone who was not already going to vote Labour.

    Falklands "Tory Plot" - surely even some 83 Labour voters would draw the line at that ?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    EU referendum

    The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    Martin Lewis‏Verified account
    @MartinSLewis


    Who do you think came out best in the Corbyn v May battle tonight?


    55%Corbyn (I'm labour)
    30%Corbyn (& I'm not labour)
    08%May (I'm a Tory)
    07%May (& I'm not Tory)
  • Options
    RobCRobC Posts: 398
    An unnecessary election is a charge that is gaining traction and needs to be answered. The Tories had a large enough majority with potential DUP support if eventually needed, which looking at the Copeland by-election it may not have been, to get them through to 2020.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Hammond looks to be superior to Barber to me, looking back "Pound won't fall *cough*"- I wasn't there at the time though !
    Yes, Barber wasn't great, although to be fair it was a bloody difficult gig trying to run the UK economy in the disastrous conditions which applied in the 70s.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    It is remarkable that perhaps a third of voters, maybe even more, are seriously contemplating voting for what is undoubtedly the most disastrous team ever to present itself for government of the UK since modern democracy began.. All the same, you don't need to invent things about what I said.

    That is your opinion. I felt the same way about "Leave". That was my opinion.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176

    New Facebook Tory advert about Brexit

    "Brexit negotiations with the EU look set to begin on 19th June – just 11 days after the General Election.

    Your vote will decide: Theresa May negotiating the best deal for Britain - or a Brexit shambles with Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott."

    I see they are now using the recognisably useless Diane Abbott.

    Could backfire. May called this unnecessary election. Implying it was risky and irresponsible may not resonate well
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,983

    Martin Lewis‏Verified account
    @MartinSLewis


    Who do you think came out best in the Corbyn v May battle tonight?


    55%Corbyn (I'm labour)
    30%Corbyn (& I'm not labour)
    08%May (I'm a Tory)
    07%May (& I'm not Tory)

    I suspect that is a very biased poll...
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Remarkable how well they're polling then, if you think there's no problem with the Tory alternative.
    It is remarkable that perhaps a third of voters, maybe even more, are seriously contemplating voting for what is undoubtedly the most disastrous team ever to present itself for government of the UK since modern democracy began.. All the same, you don't need to invent things about what I said.
    Invent? I'm just trying to make sense of it.

    Maybe you think 38% or something of the electorate have been hoodwinked into supporting Corbyn by his press coverage or something?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited May 2017

    New Facebook Tory advert about Brexit

    "Brexit negotiations with the EU look set to begin on 19th June – just 11 days after the General Election.

    Your vote will decide: Theresa May negotiating the best deal for Britain - or a Brexit shambles with Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott."

    I see they are now using the recognisably useless Diane Abbott.

    Could backfire. May called this unnecessary election. Implying it was risky and irresponsible may not resonate well
    Mentioning Abbott will backfire for the Cons ?

    It's a view.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    eek said:

    Martin Lewis‏Verified account
    @MartinSLewis


    Who do you think came out best in the Corbyn v May battle tonight?


    55%Corbyn (I'm labour)
    30%Corbyn (& I'm not labour)
    08%May (I'm a Tory)
    07%May (& I'm not Tory)

    I suspect that is a very biased poll...
    50K respondents would have thought MSE followers were mainly of a mature age
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Remarkable how well they're polling then, if you think there's no problem with the Tory alternative.
    It is remarkable that perhaps a third of voters, maybe even more, are seriously contemplating voting for what is undoubtedly the most disastrous team ever to present itself for government of the UK since modern democracy began.. All the same, you don't need to invent things about what I said.
    Invent? I'm just trying to make sense of it.

    Maybe you think 38% or something of the electorate have been hoodwinked into supporting Corbyn by his press coverage or something?
    Nobody sane believes Corbyn will achieve 38% on election day.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2017
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    The Labour team, 1974:

    Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, James Callaghan, Roy Jenkins, Roy Mason, Barbara Castle, Shirley Williams

    Look at that list, compare it with the Labour team today, and weep.

    Can't the same thing be said of the Tories, though? And the Libs/Lib Dems?
    No, not at all. The Corbyn team is completely off the scale, in a toxic combination of extremism and incompetence which is beyond anything ever seen before in a major party in modern times.
    Remarkable how well they're polling then, if you think there's no problem with the Tory alternative.
    It is remarkable that perhaps a third of voters, maybe even more, are seriously contemplating voting for what is undoubtedly the most disastrous team ever to present itself for government of the UK since modern democracy began.. All the same, you don't need to invent things about what I said.
    Invent? I'm just trying to make sense of it.

    Maybe you think 38% or something of the electorate have been hoodwinked into supporting Corbyn by his press coverage or something?
    You said that I saw no problem with the Tory alternative. That was your invention.

    I think the main reason why Labour are not being totally marmellised as they deserve is that there has been almost zero scrutiny of their policies. The reason for that is very simple, no-one took them seriously. When Theresa May made a blunder on one policy, it was major news, because people expect the policy actually to be enacted.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    rkrkrk said:

    What I am left wondering about is what happens if Corbyn wins? The EU is all set for negotiating with Mrs May and both she and her ministers have been preparing for this for some time.

    But Corbyn and Team Labour?

    If they are prepared for the EU negotiations I would be astounded.

    Very true. They would have a very steep learning curve.
    On the plus side - they are more realistic on immigration and are probably 'closer' to the EU negotiating position than the Tories.

    And to be fair - they had almost no time or warning to prepare a manifesto - and they seem to have done a much better job of that.
    The thing is, I can see Mrs May & Co taking us into a hard Brexit and I can see Corbyn & Co being completely bewildered and utterly incoherent in the Brexit negotiations.

    What I cannot see, either way, is a good outcome.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Corbyn sinking on woman's hour
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    I was part of the 38% in 2005 and the 52% in 2010.
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    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    edited May 2017
    Odds question:

    Why are the blues 4/6 to overcome a lab lead of 274 in Ealing central and Acton. But 2/7 to take Harrow west where the lead was 2208? If they're not adjacent they almost are.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Just watched May v Corbyn. Probably won't change anything, but it further reinforced the view that May is simply hopeless under interrogation, clearly hates it, and lacks the quick wit and polish any other front line politician would have. Corbyn has got so much better at appearing competent and statesmanlike and not some bearded left wing loon. The format didn't allow any real scrutiny of Labour's policies so he just got free airtime to sell his jam for everyone mad populism whilst May was under scrutiny on her policy and record and had no killer rebuttals. There were good responses available to her to everything she was under pressure on but she failed to hit the target. Nor did she demolish Labour policies. What a wasted opportunity. She is frankly hopeless.


    She wasn't *THAT* bad! I scored it Jezza 6 and Tezza 5.

    If I remember correctly, Bob was exactly the same before the least GE.

    May was fine last night. Did all she needed to do. Corbyn was a lot better than expected, but his answers on security generally and the Falklands specifically would not have convinced anyone who was not already going to vote Labour.

    Falklands "Tory Plot" - surely even some 83 Labour voters would draw the line at that ?
    Do you have a hearing problem

    JP Do you think Falklands was a Tory plot

    JC No
This discussion has been closed.