Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
Sunil will be along soon to say that is nothing to worry about !!!
I visited Birmingham University today and didn't see any immigration officers at University station, New Street or London Euston!
Well let us know when you do get stopped and tell us how you proved you were here legally .
Assuming that story's true of course.
It must be , Avery is spinning like a top trying to justify it and blame it on Labour .
Andy JS - Based on that photo looks like Plaid well ahead, Labour narrowly ahead of UKIP, with the Tories in fourth. Is it just me, or has the LD pile got one vote and I mean LITERALLY one vote, because unlike the other parties I can barely see a ballot paper at all in their column?
Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
Sunil will be along soon to say that is nothing to worry about !!!
I visited Birmingham University today and didn't see any immigration officers at University station, New Street or London Euston!
Well let us know when you do get stopped and tell us how you proved you were here legally .
Assuming that story's true of course.
It must be , Avery is spinning like a top trying to justify it and blame it on Labour .
I am not sure that the SNP will want too see this rather nasty little article making its way into the mainstream, it does their Independence cause no good.
I'm not sure an obsequious cheerleader for the nasty party, who predicted a scottish tory surge and was sure Annabel Goldie was safe hours before she quit, should keep embarrassing themselves by pretending to have a clue about scottish politics or that you have the faintest idea what the scottish public thinks.
A reminder of your scottish tory surge last year. The Scottish Conservatives lost 20 per cent of their councillors, saw their vote fall to 13.31 per cent and local representation cut dramatically or even wiped out in some areas.
Stick to your inept spinning for Cammie since you are comically out of touch anyway.
Andy JS - Based on that photo looks like Plaid well ahead, Labour narrowly ahead of UKIP, with the Tories in fourth. Is it just me, or has the LD pile got one vote and I mean LITERALLY one vote, because unlike the other parties I can barely see a ballot paper at all in their column?
Yes, it does look a bit like that.
The LDs have always had a very low vote in Ynys Mon: in 1987 they had one of the worst showings in the UK IIRC.
Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
...
It's an atmosphere being deliberately built by the Tories. Cameron seems keen to match the rise in disability hate crimes he's presided over.
If you don't like it, put forward an alternative, more effective and acceptable method of reducing the crime of residing in the UK illegally.
Or do you just want to ignore the crime?
I doubt they'll be arresting any more people this year than last, although random checks will make them appear busier to UKIP defectors. What papers are people obliged to carry now to prove their status?
I have lived in Moscow, tim.
The law requires you to carry official identity documents with you on all occasions when in public places.
For a foreigner, that means passport and separate visa document. Driving licence, insurance and car docs if driving.
Foreigners are also required to register their address within 24 hours of arrival (done by hotel on check in but you need to do it yourself if living in an apartment or staying with friends).
Registration applies to all cities in which you reside or visit overnight.
Your visa status is verified and recorded on all entries and exits to the country. Regular sponsored visitors and residents will have multiple entry visas but tourists and irregular business visitors are required to apply for a new visa for each entry into the country.
All standard stuff.
Once you get used to it, it hardly impacts your life at all.
You just put a ten dollar note inside your passport when stopped by the traffic police who single out foreign looking cars and drivers for the purposes of "passport checking".
OK, that last practice, I wouldn't want to see imported to the UK but I have no objections to the rest.
Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
I may be in a minority on this, but if that story is true it makes me genuinely ashamed to be British. I honestly - and obviously naively - thought that was the kind of thing we just did not do. But clearly we do if it helps the Tories attract UKIP voters. Revolting stuff.
Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
Sunil will be along soon to say that is nothing to worry about !!!
I visited Birmingham University today and didn't see any immigration officers at University station, New Street or London Euston!
Well let us know when you do get stopped and tell us how you proved you were here legally .
Assuming that story's true of course.
It must be , Avery is spinning like a top trying to justify it and blame it on Labour .
How diverse is your neck of the woods, Mark?
Worthing is not as diverse as Brighton though it is becoming more so .
Not saying it wouldn't have been nice to have been able to converse in Gaelic with some of my friends from the Islands as a bit of nostalgia, but they were all brought up hearing it spoken at home by their families before they even started school. But they were too many generations too late trying to re-introduce it elsewhere when this was last tried while I was still at school. Kids today are more interested in learning a language skill they will find useful in their lives.
Andy JS - Indeed, based on that photo could they be looking at their lowest ever by-election score? Even in the Bootle by-election in 1990 the SDP got 155 votes before being disbanded
MarkSenior: Can you see any difference between today in this country and the SS stopping people and asking them to prove they are not Jewish
Actually you are right. Although the authorities haven't actually started raping, starving, gassing and conducting genetic experiments on illegal immigrants yet it's only a matter of days. Maybe mere hours.
Already our resident railway expert Gruppenführer Doctor of Death Prasannan is toiling away converting his beloved trains into cattle-trucks, etc etc. Arbeit macht frei, old chap.
Random checks at stations for illegal immigrants? Is that serious? I cannot believe that. It must be made up.
Just the non white commuters according to witnesses. Didnt know we had to carry identity papers in this country, must've missed that going through parliament
...
It's an atmosphere being deliberately built by the Tories. Cameron seems keen to match the rise in disability hate crimes he's presided over.
If you don't like it, put forward an alternative, more effective and acceptable method of reducing the crime of residing in the UK illegally.
Or do you just want to ignore the crime?
I doubt they'll be arresting any more people this year than last, although random checks will make them appear busier to UKIP defectors. What papers are people obliged to carry now to prove their status?
I have lived in Moscow, tim.
The law requires you to carry official identity documents with you on all occasions when in public places.
For a foreigner, that means passport and separate visa document. Driving licence, insurance and car docs if driving.
Foreigners are also required to register their address within 24 hours of arrival (done by hotel on check in but you need to do it yourself if living in an apartment or staying with friends).
Registration applies to all cities in which you reside or visit overnight.
Your visa status is verified and recorded on all entries and exits to the country. Regular sponsored visitors and residents will have multiple entry visas but tourists and irregular business visitors are required to apply for a new visa for each entry into the country.
All standard stuff.
Once you get used to it, it hardly impacts your life at all.
You just put a ten dollar note inside your passport when stopped by the traffic police who single out foreign looking cars and drivers for the purposes of "passport checking".
OK, that last practice, I wouldn't want to see imported to the UK but I have no objections to the rest.
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
But they were too many generations too late trying to re-introduce it elsewhere when this was last tried while I was still at school. Kids today are more interested in learning a language skill they will find useful in their lives.
Despite being taught appallingly badly there is a significant proportion of people able to speak Irish fluently in areas of the country where it died out many generations before. I know from family experience that schools that teach every subject through Irish are the most popular for parents at home.
Though on the other hand arent there significant parts of Scotland that Gaelic never spread to?
The law requires you to carry official identity documents with you on all occasions when in public places.
This is true in Gibraltar too. I carry my ID card in my wallet at all times as required. The libertarian in me doesn't like it but that's the law and therefore I obey it.
Edit to add: And I need that card to get non-emergency health care too.
MarkSenior: Can you see any difference between today in this country and the SS stopping people and asking them to prove they are not Jewish
Actually you are right. Although the authorities haven't actually started raping, starving, gassing and conducting genetic experiments on illegal immigrants yet it's only a matter of days. Maybe mere hours.
Already our resident railway expert Gruppenführer Doctor of Death Prasannan is toiling away converting his beloved trains into cattle-trucks, etc etc. Arbeit macht frei, old chap.
In the last 12 months Tal Michael has lost North Wales PCC election, then he lost Labour selection for Arfon PPC and now he barely beats UKIP for second place (maybe).
I suppose it's the last time for him because....errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
No.
What I said is that as a foreigner living in another country, I did not find it either over burdensome or intrusive to comply with the immigration and residence control requirements listed. It was something you simply did, like putting on shoes before going out in the morning.
Russian nationals are also required to carry identity and residence documents on them at all times, but this does tend to fall under the "the laws in Russia are very harsh but the compensating factor is that it is not compulsory to obey them" rule. A small fine (very small) is a possibility with a 'producer' if involved in an offence, but otherwise it hardly impacts their lives.
For foreigners it just makes sense to avoid the trouble of having to explain in a foreign language why you are not carrying the documents. Obeying the law is simply hassle free.
So I wouldn't object to similar requirements for foreign nationals residing in the UK. I wouldn't support the same rules for nationals, but this is much more on cultural and historical grounds than any objection to the principles or practicalities of the system.
In the last 12 months Tal Michael has lost North Wales PCC election, then he lost Labour selection for Arfon PPC and now he barely beats UKIP for second place (maybe).
I suppose it's the last time for him because....errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
No.
What I said is that as a foreigner living in another country, I did not find it either over burdensome or intrusive to comply with the immigration and residence control requirements listed. It was something you simply did, like putting on shoes before going out in the morning.
Russian nationals are also required to carry identity and residence documents on them at all times, but this does tend to fall under the "the laws in Russia are very harsh but the compensating factor is that it is not compulsory to obey them" rule. A small fine (very small) is a possibility with a 'producer' if involved in an offence, but otherwise it hardly impacts their lives.
For foreigners it just makes sense to avoid the trouble of having to explain in a foreign language why you are not carrying the documents. Obeying the law is simply hassle free.
So I wouldn't object to similar requirements for foreign nationals residing in the UK. I wouldn't support the same rules for nationals, but this is much more on cultural and historical grounds than any objection to the principles or practicalities of the system.
So how in your world does someone who looks foreign prove they are a UK national ?
If you don't like it, put forward an alternative, more effective and acceptable method of reducing the crime of residing in the UK illegally.
Legalise their staying here. The most effective way of reducing this particular crime and you save yourself the cost of filling up the moron vans.
You can only use an amnesty if you have subsequently built a system that will allow effective control of illegal immigration.
Otherwise the amnesty just becomes an incentive to repeat the crime.
If the government put in effective stable doors, I would be happy to consider returning the loose horses to their boxes.
I assume this frenzied activity is at least partly related to the timetable slipping on exit checks being introduced
tim
You know. I know. Mark Senior knows. The current van, stop and search nonsense is partly political.
But it is also a result of successive failures by various governments to implement law enforcement systems and procedures which enable immigration to be properly controlled and related laws enforced.
Law falls into disrepute if it is not enforced. And the disreputable get an opportunity to gain from the fallout.
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
No.
What I said is that as a foreigner living in another country, I did not find it either over burdensome or intrusive to comply with the immigration and residence control requirements listed. It was something you simply did, like putting on shoes before going out in the morning.
Russian nationals are also required to carry identity and residence documents on them at all times, but this does tend to fall under the "the laws in Russia are very harsh but the compensating factor is that it is not compulsory to obey them" rule. A small fine (very small) is a possibility with a 'producer' if involved in an offence, but otherwise it hardly impacts their lives.
For foreigners it just makes sense to avoid the trouble of having to explain in a foreign language why you are not carrying the documents. Obeying the law is simply hassle free.
So I wouldn't object to similar requirements for foreign nationals residing in the UK. I wouldn't support the same rules for nationals, but this is much more on cultural and historical grounds than any objection to the principles or practicalities of the system.
And if you look foreign, but aren't, just accept that you can be stopped and questioned at any time, and that you will have to prove you have the right to live legally in the UK. So, in effect, if you look foreign make sure you carry ID every time you leave your house. And all to harvest a few UKIP votes.
Having done my family history quite extensively, it was certainly far more common to find that my ancestors were Gaelic speakers on the old censuses the further North you went.
My great grandmother from Skye was Free Church and a Gaelic speaker, she and others from the family used to travel from the family croft to the centre belt every summer to work. There she met and married my Irish Gaelic speaking and Catholic great Grandfather who had come over from his family farm in Donegal for the same purpose. Her family totally disowned her and never spoke to her again, but my Dad and his siblings remember their grandparents chattering away to each other in the Gaelic even though no else around them spoke it.
But they were too many generations too late trying to re-introduce it elsewhere when this was last tried while I was still at school. Kids today are more interested in learning a language skill they will find useful in their lives.
Despite being taught appallingly badly there is a significant proportion of people able to speak Irish fluently in areas of the country where it died out many generations before. I know from family experience that schools that teach every subject through Irish are the most popular for parents at home.
Though on the other hand arent there significant parts of Scotland that Gaelic never spread to?
Sunil, if this story is true you're a suspect. So is everyone else in your family. How would that make you feel?
If this story is true, Southam!
Southam - another "diverse" part of the Kingdom
I don't live in Southam Sunil. I live in Leamington, where the Diwali lights go up every year.
I notice you have failed to answer my question. Do you have an answer?
I suspect that Sunil is sitting there hoping the story is not true or at the very least exaggerated .
Let us all hope that is the case. I go back to my original post: surely it can't be true. Not in the UK. In Putin's Russia, yes I can see that; but not in the UK, that's not what we do, is it?
my Dad and his siblings remember their grandparents chattering away to each other in the Gaelic even though no else around them spoke it.
Yes, Donegal Irish and Gaelic often sound to me to be closer to each other than Donegal Irish is to Galway or Kerry Irish. Which is hardly surprising given where Gaelic came from!
But it would have been fascinating to hear two people with such backgrounds talking to each other in whatever mishmash of the two dialects they created for themselves!
Yes, that is exactly what my late Aunt told me, she said it was a real mix that they had developed almost as their own private language so no one understood what they were saying.
my Dad and his siblings remember their grandparents chattering away to each other in the Gaelic even though no else around them spoke it.
Yes, Donegal Irish and Gaelic often sound to me to be closer to each other than Donegal Irish is to Galway or Kerry Irish. Which is hardly surprising given where Gaelic came from!
But it would have been fascinating to hear two people with such backgrounds talking to each other in whatever mishmash of the two dialects they created for themselves!
On the spot-checks of people who look illegal-immigranty: What rights do you have in the UK if you're stopped? Is there any obligation to talk to these people or show ID? Can you be arrested for ignoring them?
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
...
And if you look foreign, but aren't, just accept that you can be stopped and questioned at any time, and that you will have to prove you have the right to live legally in the UK. So, in effect, if you look foreign make sure you carry ID every time you leave your house. And all to harvest a few UKIP votes.
It only partly works like that, SO.
If the system works and the laws are generally enforced then there is little motive or benefit for 'enforcers' to constantly inspect documents.
Apart from the driving scam and entering official buildings, I cannot think of any occasion when I was asked to produce documents even though it would have been obvious I was a foreigner.
That said, I did see, on many occasions, Russian police demanding to see documents from people that "looked a threat": principally Caucasians (Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Chechens etc). And thoiugh the production of docs was routine and expected on both sides, there clearly was a "face control" operation going on. The Russian Police would of course point to the high incidence of crime and illegal residence and the terrorism threat that derived from the Caucasian groups but it was still very heavy handed by British standards.
But the moral of story is that if a country has an effective immigration control system in place then random production of documents and targetting by 'face control' becomes almost unnecessary.
Over recent years we have seen just what misery human trafficking and exploitation of illegal immigrants can bring about in the UK, and we rightly expect the Home Office to do its job in trying to crack down on these criminal activities.
If you don't like it, put forward an alternative, more effective and acceptable method of reducing the crime of residing in the UK illegally.
Legalise their staying here. The most effective way of reducing this particular crime and you save yourself the cost of filling up the moron vans.
You can only use an amnesty if you have subsequently built a system that will allow effective control of illegal immigration.
Otherwise the amnesty just becomes an incentive to repeat the crime.
If the government put in effective stable doors, I would be happy to consider returning the loose horses to their boxes.
I assume this frenzied activity is at least partly related to the timetable slipping on exit checks being introduced
tim
You know. I know. Mark Senior knows. The current van, stop and search nonsense is partly political.
But it is also a result of successive failures by various governments to implement law enforcement systems and procedures which enable immigration to be properly controlled and related laws enforced.
Law falls into disrepute if it is not enforced. And the disreputable get an opportunity to gain from the fallout.
I am not frit of the Tories ordering the police onto the streets to target foreign looking people. I am revolted. If I am in a minority, if that puts Labour and the LDs on the losing side, so be it; I really don't care. If targeting people who look foreign is what wins you elections, then I'd rather not win.
Congratulations, Mark Senior, on the LDs getting a thumping 6th place in Ynys Mon tonight!
*titters*
Yep , we lost half our already miserly vote , the Conservatives lost 70 % of theirs . Don't forget to take some proof of nationality with you if you are going near a train station tomorrow .
So I wouldn't object to similar requirements for foreign nationals residing in the UK.
But how do the authorities know whether you are a foreign national failing to meet the requirements or a national who doesnt have to abide by them?
Continuing to use the Russian example, there are points of entry to the official world where it is necessary to produce identity documents.
For example, booking into a hotel or buying a St Petersburg-Moscow flight or rail ticket. Or applying for a drivers licence. Or entering an official government building. etc.
There will be far more such requirements in Russia than the UK but it would be wrong to conclude that we would have no similar requirements.
Work engagements, benefit claims, hospital and gp surgery admissions, propert rental agreements, driving licence applications etc could all reasonably require production of identity documents.
As long as there are sufficient reasonable requirements for identity documents, e.g. where a benefit is being obtained, then the need for random inspection diminishes.
Agree with the general tone, a good night for Plaid in their heartlands and holding off the Labour threat, but an even better night for UKIP beating the Tories and LDs in Anglesey, which is hardly home counties is it? For the LDs, after the brief respite in Eastleigh and Aberdeen Donside, looks like it is back to by-election threshings with a humiliating 1.4% and their candidate even falling behind Socialist Labour. Night!
Just on the practical effects of spot-checks based on racial profiling: Being put under suspicion on account of race doesn't feel nice, and will cause legal immigrants to distrust the British authorities. This will probably be a net negative even in terms of immigration enforcement, because it will make it harder to get reliable tip-offs and cooperation in following them up, which will be reasonably effective methods of enforcement. Worse, it will interfere with regular policing, which will mean more crime.
On the spot-checks of people who look illegal-immigranty: What rights do you have in the UK if you're stopped? Is there any obligation to talk to these people or show ID? Can you be arrested for ignoring them?
There is no obligation to answer questions or show id. I suspect most arrests probably result from people feeling intimidated by the authorities / situation (and thereby giving the officials grounds to arrest).
Crosby now running the Home Office ,along with the NHS no wonder Labour are so frit.
I am not frit of the Tories ordering the police onto the streets to target foreign looking people. I am revolted. If I am in a minority, if that puts Labour and the LDs on the losing side, so be it; I really don't care. If targeting people who look foreign is what wins you elections, then I'd rather not win.
Same old nasty party with their revolting spinners trying to gloss over this blatant and repugnant dog-whistling.
Just on the practical effects of spot-checks based on racial profiling: Being put under suspicion on account of race doesn't feel nice, and will cause legal immigrants to distrust the British authorities. This will probably be a net negative even in terms of immigration enforcement, because it will make it harder to get reliable tip-offs and cooperation in following them up, which will be reasonably effective methods of enforcement. Worse, it will interfere with regular policing, which will mean more crime.
Congratulations, Mark Senior, on the LDs getting a thumping 6th place in Ynys Mon tonight!
*titters*
Yep , we lost half our already miserly vote , the Conservatives lost 70 % of theirs . Don't forget to take some proof of nationality with you if you are going near a train station tomorrow .
What about my journey today Mark? I wasn't stopped!
Newbury Park? No Tottenham Court Road? No London Euston? No Birmingham New Street? No University (Birmingham)? No
On the spot-checks of people who look illegal-immigranty: What rights do you have in the UK if you're stopped? Is there any obligation to talk to these people or show ID? Can you be arrested for ignoring them?
There is no obligation to answer questions or show id. I suspect most arrests probably result from people feeling intimidated by the authorities / situation (and thereby giving the officials grounds to arrest).
As long as there are sufficient reasonable requirements for identity documents, e.g. where a benefit is being obtained, then the need for random inspection diminishes.
That's all well and good but I'm afraid I remain at a loss as to how your differential requirement for carrying papers for foreigners and UK nationals could work in practice.
And I'm not even throwing in the implications under the GFA in Northern Ireland!
As long as there are sufficient reasonable requirements for identity documents, e.g. where a benefit is being obtained, then the need for random inspection diminishes.
That's all well and good but I'm afraid I remain at a loss as to how your differential requirement for carrying papers for foreigners and UK nationals could work in practice.
And I'm not even throwing in the implications under the GFA in Northern Ireland!
It would be a conditional requirement of granting an entry visa and residence permit.
[I note I missed a question of yours earlier but I think it has been answered in posts to SO and MS]
It would be a conditional requirement of granting an entry visa and residence permit.
But I still cant see how the authorities could differentiate between a foreigner who was failing to comply with the requirement and a UK national who didnt have to.
It would be a conditional requirement of granting an entry visa and residence permit.
But I still cant see how the authorities could differentiate between a foreigner who was failing to comply with the requirement and a UK national who didnt have to.
It depends what prompts the need for ID.
You can't get into a bar to drink if you look under 18 without ID. No one much objects to that except lawbreaking underaged teenagers.
If employers were required to seek ID before engagement, would that be difficult to enforce? Similarly with hospitals and benefit claims etc.
If the employer is strictly liable for a breach then it would be up to them to determine what checks to implement. They could take the risk of penalty if they employed an illegal, check only those applicants for work where they deemed there was a reasonable risk, or demand ID from all applicants.
But you said you wouldnt object to foreigners having to carry papers at all times (as in Russia) but without imposing this condition on UK nationals. I was wondering how you would police that. It seems you wouldnt. Which makes me wonder why bother having the requirement.
But you said you wouldnt object to foreigners having to carry papers at all times (as in Russia) but without imposing this condition on UK nationals. I was wondering how you would police that. It seems you wouldnt. Which makes me wonder why bother having the requirement.
I also said that I can't remember being asked for documents on demand outside a car or any place except where document production is expected.
But I still always carried passport and visa on me.
It simply isn't a burden, Neil.
Foreigners expect to have to comply with local law. Some of which may well be more 'draconian' than in their country of origin. That's life.
The vast majority of East Europeans in the UK will think we are crazy not to have the same ID requirements which apply in their home countries (accepting that EU East Europeans are not the target here).
If employers were required to seek ID before engagement, would that be difficult to enforce? Similarly with hospitals and benefit claims etc.
If the employer is strictly liable for a breach then it would be up to them to determine what checks to implement. They could take the risk of penalty if they employed an illegal, check only those applicants for work where they deemed there was a reasonable risk, or demand ID from all applicants
Again, works perfectly well here. ID number goes on your employment form, is reproduced on your contract, goes on your tax docs, goes on your health registration and entitlement, goes on your lease agreements, goes on the form to get you access to the building I work in ... etc etc.
In practice, very manageable and practical. The theory I don't like but the implementation is simple, effective and useful.
No, I didnt. I was trying to help you to understand how people would feel intimidated as you dont seem clued up on these things. I simply asked you to imagine being in that situation. Go back and read the post to understand where you've gone wrong.
I have to say that while I was expecting a Plaid win I was staggered by the scale of it.. ..
So some messages: Plaid - proves the importance of popular candidates - time to retire some of the dead wood. Labour - Dont piss off the local party by parachuting in outsiders Conservative - Anti-Welsh Anti-devolution policies do not go down well in Wales UKIP - Your policies will secure you the English retiree vote in Wales but that is about that LDs - Why?
No, I didnt. I was trying to help you to understand how people would feel intimidated as you dont seem clued up on these things. I simply asked you to imagine being in that situation. Go back and read the post to understand where you've gone wrong.
Is the whole story of this "stop and search of immigrants" invented? I'm surprised the Beeb don't mention it!
I just dont see the point in having a requirement that will never be policed. In the name of avoiding unnecessary regulations you may as well drop it.
It could be relaxed to similar conditions for production of a driving licence but I don't see the need. If foreign nationals have a requirement to carry ID when in public in their home countries they will see little burden in a similar requirement being applied in the UK.
The UK prefers, culturally, a voluntary system, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if carrying ID at all times wasn't mandatory.
But what happens when an enforcement official has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the person being requested for ID may be here illegally? In such cases some alternative identification may be needed so that the person can be traced if they don't turn up on a producer.
Bank card. driving licence, utilities statement. mobile number, employers identity and verification etc. All this is much more hassle both for the foreign national and enforcement official than simple production of the right document on reasonable and lawful request.
Ah so these operations are separate from the "In the UK llegally?" vans?
The only thing these two operations would appear to have in common is that they've both recently been used by the Tory party in order to generate publicity that might appeal to UKIP waverers.
Yr wyf yn barod am yr ornest nesaf, a chofiwch y dof o gyff ymladdgar! I am ready for the next contest, and remember that I come from fighting stock!
Megan Lloyd George (Liberal) on her defeat by Cledwyn Hughes in 1951.
She would be turning in her grave if she knew that the Lib Dems had got fewer votes than the SLP. Except, of course, that she wouldn't, because it's physically and biologically impossible to do so and because she defected to the Labour Party anyway.
Comments
A reminder of your scottish tory surge last year. The Scottish Conservatives lost 20 per cent of their councillors, saw their vote fall to 13.31 per cent and local representation cut dramatically or even wiped out in some areas.
Stick to your inept spinning for Cammie since you are comically out of touch anyway.
The LDs have always had a very low vote in Ynys Mon: in 1987 they had one of the worst showings in the UK IIRC.
The law requires you to carry official identity documents with you on all occasions when in public places.
For a foreigner, that means passport and separate visa document. Driving licence, insurance and car docs if driving.
Foreigners are also required to register their address within 24 hours of arrival (done by hotel on check in but you need to do it yourself if living in an apartment or staying with friends).
Registration applies to all cities in which you reside or visit overnight.
Your visa status is verified and recorded on all entries and exits to the country. Regular sponsored visitors and residents will have multiple entry visas but tourists and irregular business visitors are required to apply for a new visa for each entry into the country.
All standard stuff.
Once you get used to it, it hardly impacts your life at all.
You just put a ten dollar note inside your passport when stopped by the traffic police who single out foreign looking cars and drivers for the purposes of "passport checking".
OK, that last practice, I wouldn't want to see imported to the UK but I have no objections to the rest.
Scotsman - Plan to teach Gaelic in every Scots primary school
Can you provide any evidence regarding my falling for the 13,000 deaths or are you just making it up as you go along as usual?
Low IQ,try reading your comments over the past two weeks,the worse the Labour polling the more idiotic your comments..
Actually you are right. Although the authorities haven't actually started raping, starving, gassing and conducting genetic experiments on illegal immigrants yet it's only a matter of days. Maybe mere hours.
Already our resident railway expert Gruppenführer Doctor of Death Prasannan is toiling away converting his beloved trains into cattle-trucks, etc etc. Arbeit macht frei, old chap.
Otherwise the amnesty just becomes an incentive to increase the crime.
If the government put in effective stable doors, I would be happy to consider returning the loose horses to their boxes.
He may be doing so well because he used to be a well-known BBC journalist:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/plaid-newcomer-rhun-ap-iorwerth-5100214
Though on the other hand arent there significant parts of Scotland that Gaelic never spread to?
Edit to add: And I need that card to get non-emergency health care too.
Southam - another "diverse" part of the Kingdom!!
I suppose it's the last time for him because....errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum
https://twitter.com/ElliwMai/status/363084554241720322/photo/1
So you want us all to carry ID cards to prove we are not foreign ?
No.
What I said is that as a foreigner living in another country, I did not find it either over burdensome or intrusive to comply with the immigration and residence control requirements listed. It was something you simply did, like putting on shoes before going out in the morning.
Russian nationals are also required to carry identity and residence documents on them at all times, but this does tend to fall under the "the laws in Russia are very harsh but the compensating factor is that it is not compulsory to obey them" rule. A small fine (very small) is a possibility with a 'producer' if involved in an offence, but otherwise it hardly impacts their lives.
For foreigners it just makes sense to avoid the trouble of having to explain in a foreign language why you are not carrying the documents. Obeying the law is simply hassle free.
So I wouldn't object to similar requirements for foreign nationals residing in the UK. I wouldn't support the same rules for nationals, but this is much more on cultural and historical grounds than any objection to the principles or practicalities of the system.
You know. I know. Mark Senior knows. The current van, stop and search nonsense is partly political.
But it is also a result of successive failures by various governments to implement law enforcement systems and procedures which enable immigration to be properly controlled and related laws enforced.
Law falls into disrepute if it is not enforced. And the disreputable get an opportunity to gain from the fallout.
I notice you have failed to answer my question. Do you have an answer?
My great grandmother from Skye was Free Church and a Gaelic speaker, she and others from the family used to travel from the family croft to the centre belt every summer to work. There she met and married my Irish Gaelic speaking and Catholic great Grandfather who had come over from his family farm in Donegal for the same purpose. Her family totally disowned her and never spoke to her again, but my Dad and his siblings remember their grandparents chattering away to each other in the Gaelic even though no else around them spoke it.
But it would have been fascinating to hear two people with such backgrounds talking to each other in whatever mishmash of the two dialects they created for themselves!
"Plaid Cymru take up a second row. Votes nearing the 13,000 mark."
https://twitter.com/ElliwMai/status/363087040683847680
Lab 3435
UKIP 3099
Con 1843
Soc Lab 348
LD 309
Lab 3,435 - 15.8%
UKIP 3,099 _ 14.3%
Con 1,843 - 8.5%
Sociliast 348 - 1.6%
LD 309 - 1.4%
Great result for Plaid and UKIP. Bad for Lab, Con and LD
Lab 15.88%
UKIP 14.32%
Con 8.52%
Soc Lab 1.61%
LD 1.43%
If the system works and the laws are generally enforced then there is little motive or benefit for 'enforcers' to constantly inspect documents.
Apart from the driving scam and entering official buildings, I cannot think of any occasion when I was asked to produce documents even though it would have been obvious I was a foreigner.
That said, I did see, on many occasions, Russian police demanding to see documents from people that "looked a threat": principally Caucasians (Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Chechens etc). And thoiugh the production of docs was routine and expected on both sides, there clearly was a "face control" operation going on. The Russian Police would of course point to the high incidence of crime and illegal residence and the terrorism threat that derived from the Caucasian groups but it was still very heavy handed by British standards.
But the moral of story is that if a country has an effective immigration control system in place then random production of documents and targetting by 'face control' becomes almost unnecessary.
*titters*
Don't forget to take some proof of nationality with you if you are going near a train station tomorrow .
For example, booking into a hotel or buying a St Petersburg-Moscow flight or rail ticket. Or applying for a drivers licence. Or entering an official government building. etc.
There will be far more such requirements in Russia than the UK but it would be wrong to conclude that we would have no similar requirements.
Work engagements, benefit claims, hospital and gp surgery admissions, propert rental agreements, driving licence applications etc could all reasonably require production of identity documents.
As long as there are sufficient reasonable requirements for identity documents, e.g. where a benefit is being obtained, then the need for random inspection diminishes.
But everybody already knows this.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/enforcement/oemsectione/chapter31?view=Binary
There is no obligation to answer questions or show id. I suspect most arrests probably result from people feeling intimidated by the authorities / situation (and thereby giving the officials grounds to arrest).
Tell us what the rules are in Japan.
Newbury Park? No
Tottenham Court Road? No
London Euston? No
Birmingham New Street? No
University (Birmingham)? No
And I'm not even throwing in the implications under the GFA in Northern Ireland!
[I note I missed a question of yours earlier but I think it has been answered in posts to SO and MS]
Try to put yourself in the position of a nervous old lady who may not have a great grasp of English in a situation like that.
You can't get into a bar to drink if you look under 18 without ID. No one much objects to that except lawbreaking underaged teenagers.
If employers were required to seek ID before engagement, would that be difficult to enforce? Similarly with hospitals and benefit claims etc.
If the employer is strictly liable for a breach then it would be up to them to determine what checks to implement. They could take the risk of penalty if they employed an illegal, check only those applicants for work where they deemed there was a reasonable risk, or demand ID from all applicants.
Try opening a bank account without ID!
But you said you wouldnt object to foreigners having to carry papers at all times (as in Russia) but without imposing this condition on UK nationals. I was wondering how you would police that. It seems you wouldnt. Which makes me wonder why bother having the requirement.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england/london/
But I still always carried passport and visa on me.
It simply isn't a burden, Neil.
Foreigners expect to have to comply with local law. Some of which may well be more 'draconian' than in their country of origin. That's life.
The vast majority of East Europeans in the UK will think we are crazy not to have the same ID requirements which apply in their home countries (accepting that EU East Europeans are not the target here).
In practice, very manageable and practical. The theory I don't like but the implementation is simple, effective and useful.
Is what story true?
I just dont see the point in having a requirement that will never be policed. In the name of avoiding unnecessary regulations you may as well drop it.
You seem to have invented that story, Sunil.
http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/89789/#Comment_89789
Lots of big, official-looking men crowding around you in a confined space barking questions at you.
Try to put yourself in the position of a nervous old lady who may not have a great grasp of English in a situation like that.
No, I didnt. I was trying to help you to understand how people would feel intimidated as you dont seem clued up on these things. I simply asked you to imagine being in that situation. Go back and read the post to understand where you've gone wrong.
So some messages:
Plaid - proves the importance of popular candidates - time to retire some of the dead wood.
Labour - Dont piss off the local party by parachuting in outsiders
Conservative - Anti-Welsh Anti-devolution policies do not go down well in Wales
UKIP - Your policies will secure you the English retiree vote in Wales but that is about that
LDs - Why?
The UK prefers, culturally, a voluntary system, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if carrying ID at all times wasn't mandatory.
But what happens when an enforcement official has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the person being requested for ID may be here illegally? In such cases some alternative identification may be needed so that the person can be traced if they don't turn up on a producer.
Bank card. driving licence, utilities statement. mobile number, employers identity and verification etc. All this is much more hassle both for the foreign national and enforcement official than simple production of the right document on reasonable and lawful request.
I am ready for the next contest, and remember that I come from fighting stock!
Megan Lloyd George (Liberal) on her defeat by Cledwyn Hughes in 1951.
She would be turning in her grave if she knew that the Lib Dems had got fewer votes than the SLP. Except, of course, that she wouldn't, because it's physically and biologically impossible to do so and because she defected to the Labour Party anyway.