Just want to clarify something - Labour has said it will not support the final Brexit deal if the six tests aren't met - doesn't that mean that there will then be no deal and we leave on WTO rules?
May will just have to hope the whipping operation is as good as the one Richard Ryder ran for John Major over Maastricht.
LONDON — Labour’s Shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer will today set out six impossible conditions for backing Theresa May’s final Brexit deal.
At a speech at Chatham House on Monday morning, Starmer will insist that Labour will only vote in favour of May’s deal if it passes “six tests”.
The tests are:
1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? 2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union? 3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities? 4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom? 5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime? 6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
There is no way that May can pass all of these tests.There is simply no deal available outside of the Single Market and the Customs Union which will deliver the “exact same benefits” as being inside of the Single Market and the Customs Union.
Finally, finally. Labour is doing something and not sitting on their collective arses. We have to ensure that those Leavers who promised us the single market carries out what they promised.
Very few Leavers promised the single market. Don't make us show you that DP clip again.
the SNP is now turning towards rubbishing the only available economic statistics that reveal the truth.
Last week a number of senior SNP politicians sought in articles and on social media to rubbish the information provided by GERS, the annual publication of Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland. What is astonishing about this behaviour is that GERS is published by the SNP Government; it is an official publication overseen by impartial public servants in Scotland using statistics validated as conforming to recognised standards by international institutions. Indeed its past reports provided the basis for independence itself and formed the foundation for the SNP Government’s White Paper of November 2013.
Those UK governments estimates and guesses of how they split , read the Uk statement and see how many times it says estimated. Since the UK cannot provide ( more like will not ) real data that shows split of the UK revenues etc , who knows what reality is but Scottish government can only use what is made available given they do not have access to the data which is closely guarded by UK goons.
These are Scottish Government statistics - are you saying Scottish statisticians are not up to the job?
they are using UK government ESTIMATES, there are no actual statistics that split the revenues, ie they are just made up and could be miles out especially given the UK will always try to show themselves in a good light at the expense of Scotland.
So you're saying you don't actually know your arse from elbow, Malcolm?
There are virtual armies of civil servants counting all this stuff all the time.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Labour need to have justification to vote against any deal May recommends to parliament. Starmer has provided that justification. If May can't get it through when a majority of MPs are from her party, then tough luck - time to resign, and we leave with No Deal.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Mr. Rentool, it's not a justification. Writing a list to which "magic beans" and "free owls" may as well be added is a pretext, not a reason, to vote against something.
LONDON — Labour’s Shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer will today set out six impossible conditions for backing Theresa May’s final Brexit deal.
At a speech at Chatham House on Monday morning, Starmer will insist that Labour will only vote in favour of May’s deal if it passes “six tests”.
The tests are:
1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? 2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union? 3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities? 4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom? 5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime? 6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
There is no way that May can pass all of these tests.There is simply no deal available outside of the Single Market and the Customs Union which will deliver the “exact same benefits” as being inside of the Single Market and the Customs Union.
Obviously those are absolute positions prior to the commencement of negotiations
Surely these are 'outcomes' - not 'starting points'?
Both, they are absolute positions on required outcomes, taken prior to the commencement of negotiations. So they are measures, and the question will be how far any deal goes towards meeting each of them. If it goes a substantive way, it's possible to argue that the test has been by and large satisfied.
What is interesting to me is that Starmer appears to be pushing back against Corbyn's disasterous attempt back in early January to wriggle out of a commitment by Labour to manage EU migration. The detail of Starmer's speech could be revealing.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
It would be very beneficial for the 27 EU states to remain in the EU if, collectively, it allowed them the continued unfettered ability to sell goods in a significant external market where there is a trade imbalance in their favour of the order of 2:1. The barriers to such a deal are the political ambitions of the Eurocrats in Brussels, not the economic interests of EU member states.
LONDON — Labour’s Shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer will today set out six impossible conditions for backing Theresa May’s final Brexit deal.
At a speech at Chatham House on Monday morning, Starmer will insist that Labour will only vote in favour of May’s deal if it passes “six tests”.
The tests are:
1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? 2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union? 3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities? 4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom? 5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime? 6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
There is no way that May can pass all of these tests.There is simply no deal available outside of the Single Market and the Customs Union which will deliver the “exact same benefits” as being inside of the Single Market and the Customs Union.
Obviously those are absolute positions prior to the commencement of negotiations
Surely these are 'outcomes' - not 'starting points'?
Both, they are absolute positions on required outcomes, taken prior to the commencement of negotiations. So they are measures, and the question will be how far any deal goes towards meeting each of them. If it goes a substantive way, it's possible to argue that the test has been by and large satisfied.
What is interesting to me is that Starmer appears to be pushing back against Corbyn's disasterous attempt back in early January to wriggle out of a commitment by Labour to manage EU migration. The detail of Starmer's speech could be revealing.
Starmer and co. are trying to outflank Corbyn by being a little more nuts than he is now?
they are using UK government ESTIMATES, there are no actual statistics that split the revenues, ie they are just made up and could be miles out especially given the UK will always try to show themselves in a good light at the expense of Scotland.
All Statistics use estimates - even the Vicar of Bath approves of GERS:
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Scotland has a public sector workforce that is 20% of its total. UK average is 17% Scotland has a £12bn deficit which is nearly a quarter of the UK total.
Of course, Scotland could abandon any financial commitments it might be pressed to make to be part of NATO, the EU, EFTA or in overseas aid to address these money matters.
If it doesn't though, there's a whole lotta cuttin' goin' on.
Only a numpty would buy the 150 bucks a barrel schtick again.
Only a numpty would quote those bollox statistics, all UK government sponsored "estimates". I could easily attribute most of my deficit to Santander and say I am not skint just as UK does.
Agreed. Hosie, Wishart, McAlpine, Swinney, Robertson et al are a prize shower of numpties.
They have unleashed the reserves as things get desperate and their lies exposed
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
That's as maybe, but Labour's position now seems to be 'Voters were foolish enough to believe those lies, and therefore out of petulance we're going to to vote against any deal which might mitigate the damage - oh, and by the way, we are completely confused on freedom of movement'.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
That's as maybe, but Labour's position now seems to be 'Voters were foolish enough to believe those lies, and therefore our of petulance we're going to to vote against any deal which might mitigate the damage - oh, and by the way, we are completely confused on freedom of movement'.
Labour's position does not have to be to carry out the wishes of a Tory Brexit government. You have your majority - you do it. It is not our responsibility. You guys are fucking up this country by engineering a car crash - you cannot ask us to drive the car !
Your position seems to be like Trump's on the ACA. It was apparently the Democrats fault that the Republicans couldn't get their hideous bill through even though they have a majority in both houses and have a twit in the White House.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
the SNP is now turning towards rubbishing the only available economic statistics that reveal the truth.
Last week a number of senior SNP politicians sought in articles and on social media to rubbish the information provided by GERS, the annual publication of Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland. What is astonishing about this behaviour is that GERS is published by the SNP Government; it is an official publication overseen by impartial public servants in Scotland using statistics validated as conforming to recognised standards by international institutions. Indeed its past reports provided the basis for independence itself and formed the foundation for the SNP Government’s White Paper of November 2013.
Those UK governments estimates and guesses of how they split , read the Uk statement and see how many times it says estimated. Since the UK cannot provide ( more like will not ) real data that shows split of the UK revenues etc , who knows what reality is but Scottish government can only use what is made available given they do not have access to the data which is closely guarded by UK goons.
These are Scottish Government statistics - are you saying Scottish statisticians are not up to the job?
they are using UK government ESTIMATES, there are no actual statistics that split the revenues, ie they are just made up and could be miles out especially given the UK will always try to show themselves in a good light at the expense of Scotland.
So you're saying you don't actually know your arse from elbow, Malcolm?
There are virtual armies of civil servants counting all this stuff all the time.
What I am saying is they don't know their arses from their elbows despite there being hordes of them they cannot disseminate the data by country. they just take a top number for UK and make up imaginary splits. The UK is run by fools and charlatans who will tell any lie that suits them. If Scotland is such a basket case why do these money gerasping heartless Tories want to hang on to us, they would ditch their granny for much less.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
The working class generally regard the EU as the epitome of the race to the bottom since it's expansion. It's future plans for incorporating Albania, Macedonia, Serbia etc do nothing to dispel that.
Starmer has Davies on a hook. It seems highly improbably we will end up with the same benefits as we have with single market and customs union.
So Starmer is effectively committing Labour to leaving free movement to the UK uncontrolled and unfettered as now and paying the €50 billion Barnier is asking for, which is the only way we remain members of the single market. I am sure that will go down well in the majority of working class Labour seats which voted Leave!
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Mr. City, he's Mayor of London material. Considering what I've read of him here, he sounds like a wretched man of dubious judgement (to be kind).
He also wouldn't resolve Labour's problem of trying to hold onto both metropolitan liberals (amongst which Starmer's legalistic political correctness and EU-philia would do well) and the working class.
"Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down."
I often wonder why relatively sensible posters really believe what they write sometimes. To summarise, we'll agree to let you leave as long as you don't actually leave. Which basically is what Starmer is saying too. Does he really believe that the EU will ever agree to a situation where we get all possible benefits with none of the obligations?
Do you?
Then why try and pretend that you're not trying to frustrate democracy? Of course, May will dare you to do it.
Go on then, cut off your nose to spite your face, and then pretend you have the high moral ground. But make sure you're both back for bedtime. Mammy and Daddy will be worried about you..
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Ironically, Carlotta is quoting us this which must have her approval:
"Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
I thought one T May [ her heroine ] said "no deal is better than a bad deal". So according to Carlotta's quote, Theresa May then would be bringing upon us "the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
"Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
Yes, Carlotta, that is exactly so. But who can complain? It is what a majority voted for - an exit without conditions.
Welcome back Peter, long time no see.
Thank you, Malcolm.
I was encouraged by the reappearance of one of my all-time favorite posters, Augustus Carp. Who knows, in due course, Tabman and the great Benedict White may yet resurface.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
Infantile. But understandable, as I am sure you are exhausted from your marching efforts on Saturday.
I voted Remain, but the slimy dishonesty of the Remain campaign pushed me very, very close to the other side. Obama back of the queue, Cameron pretending his concessions meant anything, Osborne lying about punishment budgets. But the worst thing was this: bbc r4 pm did a"true or false" spot every day about a specific claim made by one side or the other, and one question was "are Leave correct in claiming we will have more access to our own sea fishing?" And the answer was - yes in theory, but not in practice because we don't have enough fishermen, or fishing vessels, to take advantage of this theoretical right. Or in other words - yes, and it's even better than it sounds because it will boost not one but two industries - fishing and boat building.
So enough of the PANTS ON FIRE stuff. Lying about the NHS is a fine old British political tradition which makes this country what it is.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
Absolutely. I can now see he was playing a slightly longer game.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Mr. Rentool, the Americans have a saying: any noun can be verbed.
...and vice versa unfortunately... My current bete noir is people saying 'that's a big ask'. Shudders....
Isn't this one of the good things about English? It's flexibility.
Those upset by the changing English language presumably excoriate Shakespeare, who not only invented a great many words and re-purposed others but landed the language with any number of cliches too.
The reason Shakespeare was able to be so innovative with his use of language was because he had talent, knowledge, and the benefits of a rudimentary education in the Classics and foreign languages. It is impossible to be "creative" without either knowledge or skill - a point which I would like to make with increasing force to a number of contemporary "artists" and others in the "creative" occupations. Personally, I would rather be regarded as "competent" than "creative".
Fair comment (though I wasn't being entirely serious in my criticism).
Just as Trump is blaming Democrats in congress when he can't persuade Republicans to back his proposals, some Tory PBers are already blaming Labour in anticipation of May not being able to win a vote in the Commons on her Brexit deal.
No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
The Unionists won that referendum anyway.The SNP have been kowtowed to for too long, they do not represent most Scots who most polls show do not want to consider any indyref2 until the Brexit deal is done, legally and constitutionally it is May who must sign off on a referendum and she will rightly refuse to do so until she has completed the Brexit process
What I am saying is they don't know their arses from their elbows despite there being hordes of them they cannot disseminate the data by country. they just take a top number for UK and make up imaginary splits. The UK is run by fools and charlatans who will tell any lie that suits them. If Scotland is such a basket case why do these money gerasping heartless Tories want to hang on to us, they would ditch their granny for much less.
Perhaps they genuinely feel that we have worked well together for a great many years?
I understand your antipathy towards stats but I can certainly say that they do know down to postcode level what money is being spent where on certain things.
As I've said before, any one of us that voted Leave can completely understand the emotional pull of Yes for people like yourself and TUD.
Brexit isn't a reason for Scotland to go. If Scots want to go it should be purely be about yourselves rather then Brussels or Berlin or something.
If you want out, go the whole hog not half in half out.
I really think post 2021 in a North Atlantic Free Trade Area would be optimal for iScotland.
"Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down."
I often wonder why relatively sensible posters really believe what they write sometimes. To summarise, we'll agree to let you leave as long as you don't actually leave. Which basically is what Starmer is saying too. Does he really believe that the EU will ever agree to a situation where we get all possible benefits with none of the obligations?
Do you?
Then why try and pretend that you're not trying to frustrate democracy? Of course, May will dare you to do it.
Go on then, cut off your nose to spite your face, and then pretend you have the high moral ground. But make sure you're both back for bedtime. Mammy and Daddy will be worried about you..
Labour's supporters (and potential supporters) want different things.
Mr. Rentool, there's a substantial difference between a purely domestic policy, and a negotiation between the UK and the EU, the premise of which has been explicitly backed by the electorate in a referendum.
There's a risk Labour will look more concerned with the EU than the UK, and a larger risk they'll delight their metropolitan liberal supporters and further alienate the working class.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
No, at best he is a poor man's Kinnock and that is being generous! He has also just thrown back the votes of millions of Labour Leave voters in their faces
But the worst thing was this: bbc r4 pm did a"true or false" spot every day about a specific claim made by one side or the other, and one question was "are Leave correct in claiming we will have more access to our own sea fishing?" And the answer was - yes in theory, but not in practice because we don't have enough fishermen, or fishing vessels, to take advantage of this theoretical right. Or in other words - yes, and it's even better than it sounds because it will boost not one but two industries - fishing and boat building.
I seem to remember hearing a similar thing about renewable energy adoption and climate change commitments being worse off outside of the EU, but as far as I could tell this argument rested on the UK doing essentially nothing to exploit new opportunities or deal with any of the issues created by us leaving the EU. So basically it was "things will be worse outside of the EU, if we just sit there and take it". A laughable argument I'm sure you would agree.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
That's as maybe, but Labour's position now seems to be 'Voters were foolish enough to believe those lies, and therefore out of petulance we're going to to vote against any deal which might mitigate the damage - oh, and by the way, we are completely confused on freedom of movement'.
Labour's "position" is a complete and utter waste of time - They still haven't reconciled the dilemma that if you want Brexit you vote Conservative and if you want to remain you vote Lib-Dem.
Labour is still stuck in half-way house if neither supporting Brexit or outright opposing it.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
Q. When do you know when a politician is lying?
A. When they open their mouth.
Both sides lied, David.
An honest campaign might have looked something like this:
REMAINERS - Yes, the EU is a political as well as economic project. One day we hope to see Europe united as a Federal State, with a single Government, currency and economic and political stance which is uniquely european and different from the USA, Russia, China, and Asia. This will involve the member States giving up a good deal of their historic independence and sovereignity but we hope the rewards in terms of prosperity, peace, security and influence in the world will justify the sacrifice. We cannot guarantee it will, but it is a hope and a goal.
LEAVERS - We don't believe the EU project will succeed and suspect it is impossible for it to do so. We do not wish to give up our historic sovereignity and independence for an ambition which is unlikely to be realised, and even if it is, we feel that the sacrifice would not be worth the gain. We appreciate that exiting the EU is bound to incur economic cost, but believe it will be tolerable and in any case would be worth it to preserve our national independence.
Had either side put it thus, they would now have the moral high ground, but they would almost certaainly have won fewer votes. Voters do not, on the whole, like to be told unpalatable truths.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
Nah, Starmer is seeking to replay the Miliband-Syria or Boris-Brexit gambit. Which is to say, they want to be able to say that that they opposed the decision but they don't want to actually block it. Obviously, it went wrong for Miliband and Boris when they won their vote. As you say, Labour won' actually want to win it.
The PM’s foray northwards is for show but it is not trivial. It’s all part of Theresa May’s resolve to be infuriatingly reasonable towards the Scottish Nationalists. Grievances are the carbohydrates of nationalism; eliminate them and the body grinds to a halt.
Mrs May will meet Nicola Sturgeon, brief her on the UK Government’s next moves in the Brexit process, be updated on the latest complaint from Bute House (‘And how come they’ve never made Irn-Bru tablet on the Bake Off?’), and smile politely, even when she’s served lukewarm tea in a chipped mug and a lonely finger of Tesco’s extra value shortbread.
Mrs May will go through this risible ritual, returning girn with grace and provocation with resolve, in the knowledge that the slightest slip will be seized for kindling on the SNP’s eternal bonfire of petulance.
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
Q. When do you know when a politician is lying?
A. When they open their mouth.
Both sides lied, David.
An honest campaign might have looked something like this:
REMAINERS - Yes, the EU is a political as well as economic project. One day we hope to see Europe united as a Federal State, with a single Government, currency and economic and political stance which is uniquely european and different from the USA, Russia, China, and Asia. This will involve the member States giving up a good deal of their historic independence and sovereignity but we hope the rewards in terms of prosperity, peace, security and influence in the world will justify the sacrifice. We cannot guarantee it will, but it is a hope and a goal.
LEAVERS - We don't believe the EU project will succeed and suspect it is impossible for it to do so. We do not wish to give up our historic sovereignity and independence for an ambition which is unlikely to be realised, and even if it is, we feel that the sacrifice would not be worth the gain. We appreciate that exiting the EU is bound to incur economic cost, but believe it will be tolerable and in any case would be worth it to preserve our national independence.
Had either side put it thus, they would now have the moral high ground, but they would almost certaainly have won fewer votes. Voters do not, on the whole, like to be told unpalatable truths.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
If the remaining 27 EU states were to offer us such continued unfettered access, without the obligations of being part of the Single Market, then it would defeat one of the central reasons for the continued existence of the EU. You cannot leave a club and then expect to be able to use all the club facilities you used before. It is simply not going to happen.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
"Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
Yes, Carlotta, that is exactly so. But who can complain? It is what a majority voted for - an exit without conditions.
Welcome back Peter, long time no see.
Thank you, Malcolm.
I was encouraged by the reappearance of one of my all-time favorite posters, Augustus Carp. Who knows, in due course, Tabman and the great Benedict White may yet resurface.
Too kind, all of you. I am now a full-time student, and thus able to mess about on the internet all day instead of doing a proper job of work.
Written by Charles Grant, but it is interesting as reflection of the EU27 position in the upcoming negotiations. However I think even from their point of view it is rather sanguine and does not take into account the considered skepticism of people like Hans-Werner Sinn's report which someone here referred to a few days ago. He says the Germany needs e.g. continuing good access to the City of London, whereas Grant asserts that
"that is not how it looks to a lot of top EU politicians and officials. They do not want to give the City special treatment. Indeed, some of them laugh when they hear the argument that hurting the City could rebound on the 27."
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
Q. When do you know when a politician is lying?
A. When they open their mouth.
Both sides lied, David.
An honest campaign might have looked something like this:
REMAINERS - Yes, the EU is a political as well as economic project. One day we hope to see Europe united as a Federal State, with a single Government, currency and economic and political stance which is uniquely european and different from the USA, Russia, China, and Asia. This will involve the member States giving up a good deal of their historic independence and sovereignity but we hope the rewards in terms of prosperity, peace, security and influence in the world will justify the sacrifice. We cannot guarantee it will, but it is a hope and a goal.
LEAVERS - We don't believe the EU project will succeed and suspect it is impossible for it to do so. We do not wish to give up our historic sovereignity and independence for an ambition which is unlikely to be realised, and even if it is, we feel that the sacrifice would not be worth the gain. We appreciate that exiting the EU is bound to incur economic cost, but believe it will be tolerable and in any case would be worth it to preserve our national independence.
Had either side put it thus, they would now have the moral high ground, but they would almost certaainly have won fewer votes. Voters do not, on the whole, like to be told unpalatable truths.
Very very true. We punish those who tell us such things.
Mr. City, he's Mayor of London material. Considering what I've read of him here, he sounds like a wretched man of dubious judgement (to be kind).
He also wouldn't resolve Labour's problem of trying to hold onto both metropolitan liberals (amongst which Starmer's legalistic political correctness and EU-philia would do well) and the working class.
Morris many Tories on here say they require an opposition to make our system work.However whenever there might be someone who could provide it they are dissed.So I would not always believe the true blues .
The Leavers chose to get out of the EU on lies. They cannot blame others for reminding them what lies they spoke to get their votes.
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
This is just cringe. Embarrassing that a grown adult (I presume), spends his days frothing on internet forums and can't even see the clear hypocrisy in his playground argument.
Just want to clarify something - Labour has said it will not support the final Brexit deal if the six tests aren't met - doesn't that mean that there will then be no deal and we leave on WTO rules?
Yes it's as illogical as wanting a vote on the negotiations. Or a referendum. All they would be doing is giving themselves the right to force WTO rules on us, overriding whatever deal had been negotiated.
Remember that the EU will be publishing their negotiating guidelines. It's very unlikely that remaining as we are will not explicitly be on the table from day one.
Can I ask if there's anyone on here, with a pulse, who believes that the EU would ever agree to the demands the Labour Party are making?
Anyone at all?
So it's all bluff, and more accurately ... all mouth and trousers. The gob and the trappings of grown-ups without the maturity.
It think it is a dud move because the tests are so clearly undeliverable.
People who don't pay attention to the detail of politics (disproportionately working class leavers, and natural Labour voters) will simply see them blocking no matter what reason they come up with.
People who do pay attention to the detail will see the obviously contrived nature of the tests and think Labour are performing an obvious, unprincipled stunt.
"Populism is the result of economic failure. The 10 years since the financial crisis have shown that the system of economic governance which has held sway for the past four decades is broken. Some call this approach neoliberalism. Perhaps a better description would be unpopulism.
Unpopulism meant tilting the balance of power in the workplace in favour of management and treating people like wage slaves. Unpopulism was rigged to ensure that the fruits of growth went to the few not to the many. Unpopulism decreed that those responsible for the global financial crisis got away with it while those who were innocent bore the brunt of austerity."
What I am saying is they don't know their arses from their elbows despite there being hordes of them they cannot disseminate the data by country. they just take a top number for UK and make up imaginary splits. The UK is run by fools and charlatans who will tell any lie that suits them. If Scotland is such a basket case why do these money gerasping heartless Tories want to hang on to us, they would ditch their granny for much less.
Perhaps they genuinely feel that we have worked well together for a great many years?
I understand your antipathy towards stats but I can certainly say that they do know down to postcode level what money is being spent where on certain things.
As I've said before, any one of us that voted Leave can completely understand the emotional pull of Yes for people like yourself and TUD.
Brexit isn't a reason for Scotland to go. If Scots want to go it should be purely be about yourselves rather then Brussels or Berlin or something.
If you want out, go the whole hog not half in half out.
I really think post 2021 in a North Atlantic Free Trade Area would be optimal for iScotland.
Yes , it is a step in the dark no matter which way we go. Just a pity the UK is so badly run that they cannot produce proper data to show people what the reality is rather than just make up numbers and throw brickbats around. UK has been downhill for the last 30 year sin many ways and current dire politicians will surely mean the end of it. Whether that is good for any of us is debatable, but I would rather Scotland was making decisions for itself good or bad than the current useless tools in Westminster. Partnerships cannot survive when the bigger one is just a bully.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
No, at best he is a poor man's Kinnock and that is being generous! He has also just thrown back the votes of millions of Labour Leave voters in their faces
He is not Kinnock who could speak with passion and move the faithfull .He looks a serious manager in turbulent times and could reassure people with an open mind to consider Labour.
Can I ask if there's anyone on here, with a pulse, who believes that the EU would ever agree to the demands the Labour Party are making?
Anyone at all?
So it's all bluff, and more accurately ... all mouth and trousers. The gob and the trappings of grown-ups without the maturity.
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
No, at best he is a poor man's Kinnock and that is being generous! He has also just thrown back the votes of millions of Labour Leave voters in their faces
He is not Kinnock who could speak with passion and move the faithfull .He looks a serious manager in turbulent times and could reassure people with an open mind to consider Labour.
Mr. City, that's a bit like a man wishing he had a girlfriend, then not being pleased with a friend who set him up with an obnoxious mountain of lard. He's entitled not to be thrilled with his friend's 'assistance'.
Can I ask if there's anyone on here, with a pulse, who believes that the EU would ever agree to the demands the Labour Party are making?
Anyone at all?
So it's all bluff, and more accurately ... all mouth and trousers. The gob and the trappings of grown-ups without the maturity.
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
It looks as if Starmer has followed the red Queen but confused Brexit for breakfast.
1) Legal test: Parliament must “resume its supremacy over lawmaking with no impediments, qualifications or restrictions”; “Britain must wholly remove itself from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice”; no undertakings that would mean Britain was an “ongoing member of the European Court of Human Rights”.
2) Migration: “Full control of its immigration and asylum policies and border controls... We must not be bound by any freedom of movement obligation.”
3) Maritime test: Reversing the “betrayal of our coastal communities” by getting “full control” over its maritime exclusion zone, stretching 200 miles off the coasts of the UK.
4) Trade test: Retaking the seat on the World Trade Organisation, leaving the single market and customs union.
5) Money test: “No final settlement payment to the European Union and no ongoing payments to the EU budget after we have left”; an effort to “reclaim” the UK’s assets from EU institutions.
6) Time test: Brexit must be completed “well before the next general election, no “open-ended transition” period; “Brexit must be done and dusted before the end of 2019.”
The PM’s foray northwards is for show but it is not trivial. It’s all part of Theresa May’s resolve to be infuriatingly reasonable towards the Scottish Nationalists. Grievances are the carbohydrates of nationalism; eliminate them and the body grinds to a halt.
Mrs May will meet Nicola Sturgeon, brief her on the UK Government’s next moves in the Brexit process, be updated on the latest complaint from Bute House (‘And how come they’ve never made Irn-Bru tablet on the Bake Off?’), and smile politely, even when she’s served lukewarm tea in a chipped mug and a lonely finger of Tesco’s extra value shortbread.
Mrs May will go through this risible ritual, returning girn with grace and provocation with resolve, in the knowledge that the slightest slip will be seized for kindling on the SNP’s eternal bonfire of petulance.
Mayor of Toytown, with Noddy and Big Ears as councillors.
That Robin Hood trial will come back to haunt him. It's perhaps the most prominent example of PC Gone Mad this country has seen in the last 10 years, and all at the taxpayers expense. It cannot help Starmer's fingerprints are all over it.
He is a credible figure by current Labour standards, but as experienced and ready to govern as Theresa May appears? I doubt it.
Just as Trump is blaming Democrats in congress when he can't persuade Republicans to back his proposals, some Tory PBers are already blaming Labour in anticipation of May not being able to win a vote in the Commons on her Brexit deal.
No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal.
This is true. But they will back it, just as they backed the 'clean' A50 legislation. On a subject of that importance, it'd be a whip-losing event to vote against their own government.
Just as Trump is blaming Democrats in congress when he can't persuade Republicans to back his proposals, some Tory PBers are already blaming Labour in anticipation of May not being able to win a vote in the Commons on her Brexit deal.
No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal.
This is true. But they will back it, just as they backed the 'clean' A50 legislation. On a subject of that importance, it'd be a whip-losing event to vote against their own government.
Or even seat losing given that this will in effect be a vote of no confidence with a general election to follow afterwards if the vote is lost.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
No, at best he is a poor man's Kinnock and that is being generous! He has also just thrown back the votes of millions of Labour Leave voters in their faces
He is not Kinnock who could speak with passion and move the faithfull .He looks a serious manager in turbulent times and could reassure people with an open mind to consider Labour.
Mr. Surbiton, Starmer wants the Moon on a stick. Labour seem to have flipped from between being right behind the Government to wanting to frustrate the result of the referendum.
Bollocks.
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Totally agree Sir Keir Starmer looks PM material .He has the gravitas Labour need .
No, at best he is a poor man's Kinnock and that is being generous! He has also just thrown back the votes of millions of Labour Leave voters in their faces
He is not Kinnock who could speak with passion and move the faithfull .He looks a serious manager in turbulent times and could reassure people with an open mind to consider Labour.
Starmer will not reassure Momentum supporters.
Momentum supporters believe in La La Land, and nothing will reassure them that does not lead them there.
Just as Trump is blaming Democrats in congress when he can't persuade Republicans to back his proposals, some Tory PBers are already blaming Labour in anticipation of May not being able to win a vote in the Commons on her Brexit deal.
No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal.
This is true. But they will back it, just as they backed the 'clean' A50 legislation. On a subject of that importance, it'd be a whip-losing event to vote against their own government.
The way you write that, there are shades of the Supreme Soviet rubberstamping the Politburo's dictats
Or do you mean that Tories like being whipped? Oooo-err...
"Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
Yes, Carlotta, that is exactly so. But who can complain? It is what a majority voted for - an exit without conditions.
Welcome back Peter, long time no see.
Thank you, Malcolm.
I was encouraged by the reappearance of one of my all-time favorite posters, Augustus Carp. Who knows, in due course, Tabman and the great Benedict White may yet resurface.
Too kind, all of you. I am now a full-time student, and thus able to mess about on the internet all day instead of doing a proper job of work.
I was also delighted to see you back, augustus. I remember you showing me the snooker room in the Liberal Club and telling me they somehow used to film Pot Black there, in an impossibly tiny space. You were also vocal in your applause for one of my better groan-inducing pun*s here!
(*when it first emerged that a Tory MP was trying to get a new home for his quackers on expenses, I suggested that was not going to go down well with the public and could hurt the Tories with the line "that will not be a duck-billed party-plus....)
The PM’s foray northwards is for show but it is not trivial. It’s all part of Theresa May’s resolve to be infuriatingly reasonable towards the Scottish Nationalists. Grievances are the carbohydrates of nationalism; eliminate them and the body grinds to a halt.
Mrs May will meet Nicola Sturgeon, brief her on the UK Government’s next moves in the Brexit process, be updated on the latest complaint from Bute House (‘And how come they’ve never made Irn-Bru tablet on the Bake Off?’), and smile politely, even when she’s served lukewarm tea in a chipped mug and a lonely finger of Tesco’s extra value shortbread.
Mrs May will go through this risible ritual, returning girn with grace and provocation with resolve, in the knowledge that the slightest slip will be seized for kindling on the SNP’s eternal bonfire of petulance.
"Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
Yes, Carlotta, that is exactly so. But who can complain? It is what a majority voted for - an exit without conditions.
Welcome back Peter, long time no see.
Thank you, Malcolm.
I was encouraged by the reappearance of one of my all-time favorite posters, Augustus Carp. Who knows, in due course, Tabman and the great Benedict White may yet resurface.
Too kind, all of you. I am now a full-time student, and thus able to mess about on the internet all day instead of doing a proper job of work.
Comments
There are virtual armies of civil servants counting all this stuff all the time.
In 18 months time, when Theresa May brings back whatever deal she has managed to secure from the EU, Labour will have a simple choice. The choice will be to either vote for or against that deal. Starmer’s intervention today suggests that Labour will do the latter.
Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible.
http://www.businessinsider.co.id/labours-keir-starmer-article-50-brexit-deal-six-tests-wto-2017-3/?r=UK&IR=T#xzyp7FqCsIKwXUkl.97
What is interesting to me is that Starmer appears to be pushing back against Corbyn's disasterous attempt back in early January to wriggle out of a commitment by Labour to manage EU migration. The detail of Starmer's speech could be revealing.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2017/583130/IPOL_IDA(2017)583130_EN.pdf
Liars should be constantly reminded that is what they are - LIARS.
PS: even funnier it is a fake wings site made up by your unionist pals
Labour stood by the A50 trigger because that was the instruction from the people, albeit barely 51.8 - 48.2. However, the people voted for nothing else and therefore Labour have no further "instructions" from the people.
Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down.
Yes, Carlotta, that is exactly so. But who can complain? It is what a majority voted for - an exit without conditions.
Your position seems to be like Trump's on the ACA. It was apparently the Democrats fault that the Republicans couldn't get their hideous bill through even though they have a majority in both houses and have a twit in the White House.
Let's hope Smaygol keeps saying that, over and over again.
Starmer is out of touch if he does not get this.
A. When they open their mouth.
He also wouldn't resolve Labour's problem of trying to hold onto both metropolitan liberals (amongst which Starmer's legalistic political correctness and EU-philia would do well) and the working class.
"Labour must follow what it's own voters want - which to stay in the single market and the customs union, ensure workers rights are not watered down."
I often wonder why relatively sensible posters really believe what they write sometimes. To summarise, we'll agree to let you leave as long as you don't actually leave. Which basically is what Starmer is saying too. Does he really believe that the EU will ever agree to a situation where we get all possible benefits with none of the obligations?
Do you?
Then why try and pretend that you're not trying to frustrate democracy? Of course, May will dare you to do it.
Go on then, cut off your nose to spite your face, and then pretend you have the high moral ground. But make sure you're both back for bedtime. Mammy and Daddy will be worried about you..
"Instead, Britain will crash out of the EU on World Trade Organisation terms with all of the ruinous economic and political consequences that would follow such an outcome. Labour would then immediately be complicit in ensuring the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
I thought one T May [ her heroine ] said "no deal is better than a bad deal". So according to Carlotta's quote, Theresa May then would be bringing upon us "the hardest and most extreme form of Brexit possible."
I was encouraged by the reappearance of one of my all-time favorite posters, Augustus Carp. Who knows, in due course, Tabman and the great Benedict White may yet resurface.
I voted Remain, but the slimy dishonesty of the Remain campaign pushed me very, very close to the other side. Obama back of the queue, Cameron pretending his concessions meant anything, Osborne lying about punishment budgets. But the worst thing was this: bbc r4 pm did a"true or false" spot every day about a specific claim made by one side or the other, and one question was "are Leave correct in claiming we will have more access to our own sea fishing?" And the answer was - yes in theory, but not in practice because we don't have enough fishermen, or fishing vessels, to take advantage of this theoretical right. Or in other words - yes, and it's even better than it sounds because it will boost not one but two industries - fishing and boat building.
So enough of the PANTS ON FIRE stuff. Lying about the NHS is a fine old British political tradition which makes this country what it is.
(You kindly welcomed me back some while ago..)
There’s more than just a left-right divide
... there's willingness (or not) to compromise
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-two-cracks-in-the-republican-party/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/6672231/Alex-Salmond-taunts-Unionists-over-independence-referendum.html
p.s. Good to see you back.
No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal.
https://twitter.com/STVColin/status/846319164889419776
I understand your antipathy towards stats but I can certainly say that they do know down to postcode level what money is being spent where on certain things.
As I've said before, any one of us that voted Leave can completely understand the emotional pull of Yes for people like yourself and TUD.
Brexit isn't a reason for Scotland to go. If Scots want to go it should be purely be about yourselves rather then Brussels or Berlin or something.
If you want out, go the whole hog not half in half out.
I really think post 2021 in a North Atlantic Free Trade Area would be optimal for iScotland.
There's a risk Labour will look more concerned with the EU than the UK, and a larger risk they'll delight their metropolitan liberal supporters and further alienate the working class.
"No. If May loses the vote, it will be due to sufficient Tories failing to back her deal."
True. If enough loons vote for chaos, then chaos is what we'll get. The next set of GE doorstep conversations will be interesting.
"Will you be voting?"
"Why?"
And that will be the polite version.
Labour is still stuck in half-way house if neither supporting Brexit or outright opposing it.
An honest campaign might have looked something like this:
REMAINERS - Yes, the EU is a political as well as economic project. One day we hope to see Europe united as a Federal State, with a single Government, currency and economic and political stance which is uniquely european and different from the USA, Russia, China, and Asia. This will involve the member States giving up a good deal of their historic independence and sovereignity but we hope the rewards in terms of prosperity, peace, security and influence in the world will justify the sacrifice. We cannot guarantee it will, but it is a hope and a goal.
LEAVERS - We don't believe the EU project will succeed and suspect it is impossible for it to do so. We do not wish to give up our historic sovereignity and independence for an ambition which is unlikely to be realised, and even if it is, we feel that the sacrifice would not be worth the gain. We appreciate that exiting the EU is bound to incur economic cost, but believe it will be tolerable and in any case would be worth it to preserve our national independence.
Had either side put it thus, they would now have the moral high ground, but they would almost certaainly have won fewer votes. Voters do not, on the whole, like to be told unpalatable truths.
Mrs May will meet Nicola Sturgeon, brief her on the UK Government’s next moves in the Brexit process, be updated on the latest complaint from Bute House (‘And how come they’ve never made Irn-Bru tablet on the Bake Off?’), and smile politely, even when she’s served lukewarm tea in a chipped mug and a lonely finger of Tesco’s extra value shortbread.
Mrs May will go through this risible ritual, returning girn with grace and provocation with resolve, in the knowledge that the slightest slip will be seized for kindling on the SNP’s eternal bonfire of petulance.
https://stephendaisley.com/2017/03/27/brexit-wont-drive-us-into-the-snps-arms-nor-can-it-fix-the-unions-flaws/
If I'd realised how nicely I would have been welcomed back, I would have left more often. ;-)
Anyone at all?
So it's all bluff, and more accurately ... all mouth and trousers. The gob and the trappings of grown-ups without the maturity.
Double negatives make me dizzy.
People who don't pay attention to the detail of politics (disproportionately working class leavers, and natural Labour voters) will simply see them blocking no matter what reason they come up with.
People who do pay attention to the detail will see the obviously contrived nature of the tests and think Labour are performing an obvious, unprincipled stunt.
Unpopulism meant tilting the balance of power in the workplace in favour of management and treating people like wage slaves. Unpopulism was rigged to ensure that the fruits of growth went to the few not to the many. Unpopulism decreed that those responsible for the global financial crisis got away with it while those who were innocent bore the brunt of austerity."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/26/populism-is-the-result-of-global-economic-failure
Mayor of Toytown, with Noddy and Big Ears as councillors.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/27/watch-live-theresa-may-refuse-nicola-sturgeons-call-second-independence/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
LOL.
His six tests are:
1) Legal test: Parliament must “resume its supremacy over lawmaking with no impediments, qualifications or restrictions”; “Britain must wholly remove itself from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice”; no undertakings that would mean Britain was an “ongoing member of the European Court of Human Rights”.
2) Migration: “Full control of its immigration and asylum policies and border controls... We must not be bound by any freedom of movement obligation.”
3) Maritime test: Reversing the “betrayal of our coastal communities” by getting “full control” over its maritime exclusion zone, stretching 200 miles off the coasts of the UK.
4) Trade test: Retaking the seat on the World Trade Organisation, leaving the single market and customs union.
5) Money test: “No final settlement payment to the European Union and no ongoing payments to the EU budget after we have left”; an effort to “reclaim” the UK’s assets from EU institutions.
6) Time test: Brexit must be completed “well before the next general election, no “open-ended transition” period; “Brexit must be done and dusted before the end of 2019.”
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/uk-independence-party/news/84571/paul-nuttall-insists-ukip-will-not-be
He is a credible figure by current Labour standards, but as experienced and ready to govern as Theresa May appears? I doubt it.
Or do you mean that Tories like being whipped? Oooo-err...
(*when it first emerged that a Tory MP was trying to get a new home for his quackers on expenses, I suggested that was not going to go down well with the public and could hurt the Tories with the line "that will not be a duck-billed party-plus....)