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  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited March 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting but pointless thread header. Every political party is formed in order to gain power and influence society (in fact it is something that the LDs could teach Lab). That is what happened in 2010; political power was on offer and the LDs took it. Imagine if they had said that, as no party sufficiently reflected their political aims, they would sit this one out and work towards an overall majority in 2014/5. They would, rightly, have been flayed alive by LD supporters and others.

    Yes, then the LDs rolled over in front of the Tory juggernaut. Did they have to agree to the Tuition Fee increase ? £1bn ? Have the Tories balanced the budget even today, 7 years in power.

    The LDs forgot one simple fact, maybe didn't even realise it. No matter their parliamentary strength , they were equal partners. The Tories could do nothing without them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    edited March 2017
    Patrick said:

    I think the two big lessons of the coalition were:
    1. The junior partner should have whole ministries for itself rather than being subsumed into a larger whole. They then become distinct and accountable in their own areas. And they don't become quite so politically attached to their senior partner.
    2. Don't badmouth your own government or seek to be an opposition in power. Maybe 1 above solves this too.

    Except wrt 1. the LDs had a set of specific demands across several policy areas which any coalition partner would have to meet before they said they would consider forming a coalition. Brown thought he didn't have to address them; Dave addressed them one by one.
  • Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    More or fewer than HMRC employees in a dependent Scotland?

    'East Kilbride tax offices will face future job losses and leave the town in next decade

    HMRC will close most of its existing offices in Scotland, including the Plaza Tower, which has 1000 staff, by 2020-21, with the Centre 1 building closing by 2026.

    Uncertainty remains over the number of job losses, but with a 3000-strong workforce in East Kilbride, Bob Farmer, PCS union president for East Kilbride Revenue and Customs branch, said there is "no question" redundancies are ahead.
    He told the News: "There is a combination of relief among staff in the short term as there wasn't the nuclear option of the building closing right away, but certainly lots of questions remain for staff.
    "Our local concerns are about the long term future of jobs.
    "The impact of the town losing 3000 jobs will be huge."'

    http://tinyurl.com/mzeqcf4
    HMRC nationally is moving from over 150 offices to 13 big regional centres plus a few specialist sites. This will save alot of money for taxpayers. Scotland will have 2 of the 13 centres (Glasgow and Edinburgh) and will have about 12% of HMRC's workforce (vs 8% of population). You talk about some of the offices that will close but not, strangely, about the major new offices to be opened.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2017

    Roger said:

    Another date on the sellout Smaygol 'Preshuss, preshuss Union' tour - Good morning East Kilbride!

    'A triumph!' - all PB Brexityoons.
    What's all this sticking flags up behind them all about? Something a bit too American and not quite wholesome for my taste.
    Ms Sturgeon's taste in flags has varied - often its the Saltire with the visitor's home flag:

    http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/Edinburgh-688294.jpg

    - or the Saltire with the EU flag:

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/resources/images/5209264.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery

    (Though that's gone out of fashion a bit) - there was some commentary at the time that for May's visit Sturgeon didn't have the Union flag.....it all seems a little childish - lets see what today brings.....
    NO UNION FLAG??? That has to be a straightforward LIE.
    If Ms Sturgeon tries that again.. Mrs May can take one with her and refuse to sit and be photographed without it.
  • surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting but pointless thread header. Every political party is formed in order to gain power and influence society (in fact it is something that the LDs could teach Lab). That is what happened in 2010; political power was on offer and the LDs took it. Imagine if they had said that, as no party sufficiently reflected their political aims, they would sit this one out and work towards an overall majority in 2014/5. They would, rightly, have been flayed alive by LD supporters and others.

    Have the Tories balanced the budget even today, 7 years in power.
    The coalition inherited a £160bn deficit. How rapidly were you thinking that should move into surplus? 5 years? So cuts of £30bn+ every year compounding across the whole parliament?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826
    edited March 2017
    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting but pointless thread header. Every political party is formed in order to gain power and influence society (in fact it is something that the LDs could teach Lab). That is what happened in 2010; political power was on offer and the LDs took it. Imagine if they had said that, as no party sufficiently reflected their political aims, they would sit this one out and work towards an overall majority in 2014/5. They would, rightly, have been flayed alive by LD supporters and others.

    Yes, then the LDs rolled over in front of the Tory juggernaut. Did they have to agree to the Tuition Fee increase ? £1bn ? Have the Tories balanced the budget even today, 7 years in power.

    The LDs forgot one simple fact, maybe didn't even realise it. No matter their parliamentary strength , they were equal partners. The Tories could do nothing without them.
    That is also a fair point, and is the way it is often played in local government.

    I think the Westminster system of government - where parliament is in effect subordinated to ministerial/civil servant governance on a day-to-day basis, makes things more difficult. If every single decision ended up having to carry in parliament, or if parliament had an effective day-to-day brake on the executive other than the nuclear one of sacking the lot of them and the government falling, things might be different.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    stodge said:

    timmo said:


    Because in places such as Manchester and Liverpool the Tories are even more toxic than the LDs thats why.
    In other parts of the country that is not the case.

    To provide a more serious answer to your previous slightly cheap jibe, I can assure you that where LD activists are in Labour areas such as East London, they are very keen to take the fight to the party which dominates local politics.

    The truth is geographically and perhaps historically, there are more Conservative areas and that has tended to be where the areas of LD activity have been and where therefore the Party, in times of recovery, has started to make progress. There's also the not unreasonable premise that as there are more Conservative voters than Labour ones, there is a potentially larger pool of disillusioned Conservative voters when that party is in Government.

    You may find this hard to believe as a Conservative activist but not everybody likes or supports a Conservative Government and some of those who did at the preceding GE come to have doubts about their choice once they see the Government in action. The pool of the disillusioned and discontent may also be larger at local level (where protesting against the Government is seen not to have a wider impact) than at national level.

    You have just proved my point.. thanks
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Ww
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,213
    Jonathan said:

    The coalition is the greatest misstep in British politics.

    Brough Tories off life support, trashed LD brand, destroyed 30 years of ld gains and made Brexit possible.

    And that's a bad thing?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Will the Prime Minister tell the First Minister today that she will not invoke article 50 until she has an "agreed UK position backed by Scotland"

    - or was the commitment from last July on her first visit something she no longer wants to talk about?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826
    edited March 2017
    stodge said:

    timmo said:


    Because in places such as Manchester and Liverpool the Tories are even more toxic than the LDs thats why.
    In other parts of the country that is not the case.

    To provide a more serious answer to your previous slightly cheap jibe, I can assure you that where LD activists are in Labour areas such as East London, they are very keen to take the fight to the party which dominates local politics.

    The truth is geographically and perhaps historically, there are more Conservative areas and that has tended to be where the areas of LD activity have been and where therefore the Party, in times of recovery, has started to make progress. There's also the not unreasonable premise that as there are more Conservative voters than Labour ones, there is a potentially larger pool of disillusioned Conservative voters when that party is in Government.

    You may find this hard to believe as a Conservative activist but not everybody likes or supports a Conservative Government and some of those who did at the preceding GE come to have doubts about their choice once they see the Government in action. The pool of the disillusioned and discontent may also be larger at local level (where protesting against the Government is seen not to have a wider impact) than at national level.

    That's definitely right. The other contributory factors to the balance of LibDem prospects is that their traditional demographic was based amongst the middle class (look back through history and their core demographic, outside the Celtic fringe, was always what we would now call soft Tories) and that having the time, money and propensity for political activity tends to be a middle class thing, hence there are more activists and more money to fund the sort of relentless political activity that gets the LDs noticed in more middle-class areas.

    Nevertheless where you can get a strong local team going the LibDems can be very effective and hugely motivated in an urban area (there are plenty of pre-2015 examples such as Bermondsey).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361
    stodge said:

    timmo said:

    I have said it on this forum a few times and i will say it again. The LibDems have a real priblem when attempting to fight labour held seats. Their heart isnt really in it. Their supporters are massively up for tge fight vs the Tories but not vs Labour. Combine that with the brand toxicity that the coslition wrought upon them and you can see why a topple labour strategy doesnt work for them. This is a real problem for the LDs and they need to get their heads around it quickly to turn the situation around.

    So why aren't the Conservatives, who are now apparently the Party of the working man and woman (and indeed the Party for almost anyone and everyone else) mounting a challenge ?

    Once again, the talk is all about the LDs - where are the Conservatives ? Having won Copeland and polled well in Stoke, why aren't the Conservatives challenging hard in Gorton or haven't they yet "turned up the volume" there ?
    I don't know. But could it be that
    -Realistically there is zero chance of the Tories winning
    - there is at least a potential (non-tory) threat to a Labour hold
    - any effort they put in weakens the overall threat to a Labour hold by further splitting the non-labour vote ?
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    And how many Foreign Office jobs are there in Scotland? I think Robin Cook had a driver here when he was in post.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,374
    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    I think the two big lessons of the coalition were:
    1. The junior partner should have whole ministries for itself rather than being subsumed into a larger whole. They then become distinct and accountable in their own areas. And they don't become quite so politically attached to their senior partner.
    2. Don't badmouth your own government or seek to be an opposition in power. Maybe 1 above solves this too.

    Except wrt 1. the LDs had a set of specific demands across several policy areas which any coalition partner would have to meet before they said they would consider forming a coalition. Brown thought he didn't have to address them; Dave addressed them one by one.
    One big mistake that Clegg made was to take the job of DPM, as opposed to a traditional Great Office. Sure, Dave had made promises to Osborne and Hague, but AFAIR he hadn’t particularly to May, and anyway, they weren’t in the manifesto!

    Yes, of course I realise that that horse has bolted, and there’s no point in going over what policies were right and what wrong, but there are lessons to be learned for whichever Coalition is formed in future ..... and one shoud never say never. I think one can question whether Dave addressed them honestly and openly, but he’s gone now, and good riddance.
    Otherewise I agree with Mr B2
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    Scotland has 10% of the UK's civil servants. I doubt there will be a great hiring spree in the event of SINDY.....

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/civilservicestatistics/2015-10-08
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    scotslass said:

    Will the Prime Minister tell the First Minister today that she will not invoke article 50 until she has an "agreed UK position backed by Scotland"

    - or was the commitment from last July on her first visit something she no longer wants to talk about?

    Wasn't the Scottish Government's position effectively 'Don't leave the EU'?

    We know Sturgeon doesn't believe in the results of referendums.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826
    edited March 2017

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    I think the two big lessons of the coalition were:
    1. The junior partner should have whole ministries for itself rather than being subsumed into a larger whole. They then become distinct and accountable in their own areas. And they don't become quite so politically attached to their senior partner.
    2. Don't badmouth your own government or seek to be an opposition in power. Maybe 1 above solves this too.

    Except wrt 1. the LDs had a set of specific demands across several policy areas which any coalition partner would have to meet before they said they would consider forming a coalition. Brown thought he didn't have to address them; Dave addressed them one by one.
    One big mistake that Clegg made was to take the job of DPM, as opposed to a traditional Great Office. Sure, Dave had made promises to Osborne and Hague, but AFAIR he hadn’t particularly to May, and anyway, they weren’t in the manifesto!

    Yes, of course I realise that that horse has bolted, and there’s no point in going over what policies were right and what wrong, but there are lessons to be learned for whichever Coalition is formed in future ..... and one shoud never say never. I think one can question whether Dave addressed them honestly and openly, but he’s gone now, and good riddance.
    Otherewise I agree with Mr B2
    The LibDem plan was to use the DPM, the Quad, and the spread of Junior ministers to have an input (and a brake) on the Tories across the whole range of government activity. Actually, if you study the detail (and talk to LD ex-ministers as I have), they were actually very successful in getting the Tories to drop a whole raft of potentially dumb and/or unpopular things at an early stage. The trouble is, of course, that it's the things the government actually does that influences the zeitgeist - there is rarely credit in killing a bad idea at birth. Indeed the LibDems probably did the Tories multiple favours in choking off some of their more rabid ideas before they saw the light of day (an EU referendum being one of them).

    The question is whether avoiding the DPM/Quad model and going for, say, Education and/or Environment and opting out of the rest, allows you to reduce the blame you get for everything else the government does. Overseas precedent suggests it doesn't, really, since you have to vote for it anyway and haven't had much input into it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    More or fewer than HMRC employees in a dependent Scotland?

    'East Kilbride tax offices will face future job losses and leave the town in next decade

    HMRC will close most of its existing offices in Scotland, including the Plaza Tower, which has 1000 staff, by 2020-21, with the Centre 1 building closing by 2026.

    Uncertainty remains over the number of job losses, but with a 3000-strong workforce in East Kilbride, Bob Farmer, PCS union president for East Kilbride Revenue and Customs branch, said there is "no question" redundancies are ahead.
    He told the News: "There is a combination of relief among staff in the short term as there wasn't the nuclear option of the building closing right away, but certainly lots of questions remain for staff.
    "Our local concerns are about the long term future of jobs.
    "The impact of the town losing 3000 jobs will be huge."'

    http://tinyurl.com/mzeqcf4
    Curiously enough, you missed a bit:

    The final restructuring will see around 12 per cent of the HMRC staff total based in Scotland.
    Lin Homer, HMRC’s chief executive, said: “The new regional centres in Glasgow and Edinburgh will bring our staff together in more modern and cost-effective buildings in areas with lower rents


    And how many jobs would they have in Sindy?
    What does it matter to a Tory in the Channel Islands where they do not need them as people evade paying UK taxes. There will be as many as needed.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,136
    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    Calling SeanT: saying you're a socialist gets you more sex (in America anyway):

    https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/698734970215493633?ncid=newsletter-uk
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    edited March 2017
    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,136

    Greetings from Hong Kong. There are more young French people here than ever. They seem to be coming over in droves. One positive result of this is that the number of good coffee and sandwich places has grown very rapidly.

    The new chief executive was elected yesterday: Carrie Lam. She was the Beijing candidate, so it's no surprise she came out on top. The electorate was restricted to an electoral college of just under 1,200 people made up of legislators and individuals representing companies, organisations, industry sectors etc. Madam Lam got 777 votes.

    It's not a popular result, to say the least. The results were carried live on the TV and I saw small groups assembling in front of sets that had been set up in restaurants, bars etc. As Madam Lam's vote moved towards the wining point, there were a lot of angry faces and much guttural Cantonese was being spat out.

    Seven is a very inauspicious number in Hong Kong, so getting it three times is not a brilliant start. Madam Lam has a hell of a job on her side, not only to win over the ordinary Hong Kong people, but also to persuade investors and institutions that the independence of the judiciary is still a reality.

    On the surface, Hong Kong continues to bustle and wheel and deal, but a lot of people are not happy with things. I am not sure Beijing has yet managed to put a lid on how this will manifest itself and would not be surprised if there are further large scale demos in the not too distant future.

    Lots of French? In Hong Kong?

    Interesting.

    London aside, Hong Kong is home to the world's largest French ex-pat community:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/08/05/the-hottest-spot-for-french-expats-these-days-is-hong-kong/

    Thanks. Interesting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    Patrick said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    More or fewer than HMRC employees in a dependent Scotland?

    'East Kilbride tax offices will face future job losses and leave the town in next decade

    HMRC will close most of its existing offices in Scotland, including the Plaza Tower, which has 1000 staff, by 2020-21, with the Centre 1 building closing by 2026.

    Uncertainty remains over the number of job losses, but with a 3000-strong workforce in East Kilbride, Bob Farmer, PCS union president for East Kilbride Revenue and Customs branch, said there is "no question" redundancies are ahead.
    He told the News: "There is a combination of relief among staff in the short term as there wasn't the nuclear option of the building closing right away, but certainly lots of questions remain for staff.
    "Our local concerns are about the long term future of jobs.
    "The impact of the town losing 3000 jobs will be huge."'

    http://tinyurl.com/mzeqcf4
    HMRC nationally is moving from over 150 offices to 13 big regional centres plus a few specialist sites. This will save alot of money for taxpayers. Scotland will have 2 of the 13 centres (Glasgow and Edinburgh) and will have about 12% of HMRC's workforce (vs 8% of population). You talk about some of the offices that will close but not, strangely, about the major new offices to be opened.
    Only a Tory can turn the loss of thousands of jobs into being a bonus. Can you read Patrick.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34798266

    HMRC jobs in Scotland
    What's going to change?

    8,300

    approximate number of jobs

    2,000

    approximate number to be cut
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited March 2017
    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting but pointless thread header. Every political party is formed in order to gain power and influence society (in fact it is something that the LDs could teach Lab). That is what happened in 2010; political power was on offer and the LDs took it. Imagine if they had said that, as no party sufficiently reflected their political aims, they would sit this one out and work towards an overall majority in 2014/5. They would, rightly, have been flayed alive by LD supporters and others.

    Yes, then the LDs rolled over in front of the Tory juggernaut. Did they have to agree to the Tuition Fee increase ? £1bn ? Have the Tories balanced the budget even today, 7 years in power.

    The LDs forgot one simple fact, maybe didn't even realise it. No matter their parliamentary strength , they were equal partners. The Tories could do nothing without them.
    That is also a fair point, and is the way it is often played in local government.

    I think the Westminster system of government - where parliament is in effect subordinated to ministerial/civil servant governance on a day-to-day basis, makes things more difficult. If every single decision ended up having to carry in parliament, or if parliament had an effective day-to-day brake on the executive other than the nuclear one of sacking the lot of them and the government falling, things might be different.
    That is why Clegg's decision to have at least a minister in each department was correct. However, some got caught in the headlights of government and let the Tories roll them over. They believed in the coalition a bit too much - cultivated "relationship" rather than being a hard-nosed party in government.

    They may have cultivated relationship, the Tories had no such intent. First AV and then the GE, the Tories ruthlessly went after the LDs. Ironically better than they did against Labour.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,136
    stodge said:

    timmo said:

    I have said it on this forum a few times and i will say it again. The LibDems have a real priblem when attempting to fight labour held seats. Their heart isnt really in it. Their supporters are massively up for tge fight vs the Tories but not vs Labour. Combine that with the brand toxicity that the coslition wrought upon them and you can see why a topple labour strategy doesnt work for them. This is a real problem for the LDs and they need to get their heads around it quickly to turn the situation around.

    So why aren't the Conservatives, who are now apparently the Party of the working man and woman (and indeed the Party for almost anyone and everyone else) mounting a challenge ?

    Once again, the talk is all about the LDs - where are the Conservatives ? Having won Copeland and polled well in Stoke, why aren't the Conservatives challenging hard in Gorton or haven't they yet "turned up the volume" there ?
    The demographic and psephological profile of Manchester Gorton is awful for the Conservatives.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509

    I can't comprehend why anybody would ever vote for Galloway

    Same sort of reason as some Trump voters. If you hate the Establishment and traditional politics, Galloway is a plausible stuff-you vote. But I think he's a busted flush and will struggle to save his deposit.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    Despite being a Scot, Carlotta is very anti Scottish. Maybe living in a tax free environment does it to you.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    More or fewer than HMRC employees in a dependent Scotland?

    'East Kilbride tax offices will face future job losses and leave the town in next decade

    HMRC will close most of its existing offices in Scotland, including the Plaza Tower, which has 1000 staff, by 2020-21, with the Centre 1 building closing by 2026.

    Uncertainty remains over the number of job losses, but with a 3000-strong workforce in East Kilbride, Bob Farmer, PCS union president for East Kilbride Revenue and Customs branch, said there is "no question" redundancies are ahead.
    He told the News: "There is a combination of relief among staff in the short term as there wasn't the nuclear option of the building closing right away, but certainly lots of questions remain for staff.
    "Our local concerns are about the long term future of jobs.
    "The impact of the town losing 3000 jobs will be huge."'

    http://tinyurl.com/mzeqcf4
    HMRC nationally is moving from over 150 offices to 13 big regional centres plus a few specialist sites. This will save alot of money for taxpayers. Scotland will have 2 of the 13 centres (Glasgow and Edinburgh) and will have about 12% of HMRC's workforce (vs 8% of population). You talk about some of the offices that will close but not, strangely, about the major new offices to be opened.
    Only a Tory can turn the loss of thousands of jobs into being a bonus. Can you read Patrick.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34798266

    HMRC jobs in Scotland
    What's going to change?

    8,300

    approximate number of jobs

    2,000

    approximate number to be cut
    There were 43,623 Civil Service employees in Scotland,[10% total] 30,801 in Wales and 3,664 in Northern Ireland on 31 March 2015....

    There were increases in the number of civil servants in London, Yorkshire and the Humber, West Midlands and overseas. All other regions showed decreases.....The regions with the largest percentage decreases in Civil Service employment between 31 March 2014 and 31 March 2015 were Northern Ireland (7.7%) and the South West (1.7%).


    So, Scotland has more civil servants than population share and hasn't been cut as much as Northern Ireland or the South West......I can't imagine where anyone gets this notion of the ungrateful whinging Scot from....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,374
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    I think the two big lessons of the coalition were:
    1. The junior partner should have whole ministries for itself rather than being subsumed into a larger whole. They then become distinct and accountable in their own areas. And they don't become quite so politically attached to their senior partner.
    2. Don't badmouth your own government or seek to be an opposition in power. Maybe 1 above solves this too.

    Except wrt 1. the LDs had a set of specific demands across several policy areas which any coalition partner would have to meet before they said they would consider forming a coalition. Brown thought he didn't have to address them; Dave addressed them one by one.
    One big mistake that Clegg made was to take the job of DPM, as opposed to a traditional Great Office. Sure, Dave had made promises to Osborne and Hague, but AFAIR he hadn’t particularly to May, and anyway, they weren’t in the manifesto!

    Yes, of course I realise that that horse has bolted, and there’s no point in going over what policies were right and what wrong, but there are lessons to be learned for whichever Coalition is formed in future ..... and one shoud never say never. I think one can question whether Dave addressed them honestly and openly, but he’s gone now, and good riddance.
    Otherewise I agree with Mr B2
    The LibDem plan was to use the DPM, the Quad, and the spread of Junior ministers to have an input (and a brake) on the Tories across the whole range of government activity. Actually, if you study the detail (and talk to LD ex-ministers as I have), they were actually very successful in getting the Tories to drop a whole raft of potentially dumb and/or unpopular things at an early stage. The trouble is, of course, that it's the things the government actually does that influences the zeitgeist - there is rarely credit in killing a bad idea at birth. Indeed the LibDems probably did the Tories multiple favours in choking off some of their more rabid ideas before they saw the light of day (an EU referendum being one of them).

    The question is whether avoiding the DPM/Quad model and going for, say, Education and/or Environment and opting out of the rest, allows you to reduce the blame you get for everything else the government does. Overseas precedent suggests it doesn't, really, since you have to vote for it anyway and haven't had much input into it.
    Thanks for the info. As an ordinary LibDem voter...... one time activist, but those days are long gone ..... I don’t and didn’t have such info, but, TBH, I can see the rationale. I still think, though, that the office of DPM was widely seen, fairly quickly, as partly at least, window dressing.
    And Vince and Ed had big jobs.
  • malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    Wasn't that what the Chinese thought we would ask for and were stunned when we said they could have the whole lot back?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,374

    stodge said:

    timmo said:

    I have said it on this forum a few times and i will say it again. The LibDems have a real priblem when attempting to fight labour held seats. Their heart isnt really in it. Their supporters are massively up for tge fight vs the Tories but not vs Labour. Combine that with the brand toxicity that the coslition wrought upon them and you can see why a topple labour strategy doesnt work for them. This is a real problem for the LDs and they need to get their heads around it quickly to turn the situation around.

    So why aren't the Conservatives, who are now apparently the Party of the working man and woman (and indeed the Party for almost anyone and everyone else) mounting a challenge ?

    Once again, the talk is all about the LDs - where are the Conservatives ? Having won Copeland and polled well in Stoke, why aren't the Conservatives challenging hard in Gorton or haven't they yet "turned up the volume" there ?
    The demographic and psephological profile of Manchester Gorton is awful for the Conservatives.
    Many who were students in the immediate aftermath of 2010 have now moved on, and AIUI, many who became students last year are by no means as hostile as their predecessors were. Then of course there’s the EU!
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    just one thing about the Coalition. All this stuff about the Lib Dems should have gone for a referendum on STV, the Lib Dems should have had several complete ministeries etc etc. Takes two to tango. Tories had the upper hand. They would not have wanted to help the Lib Dems out, now would they?

    Anyway, it's done now. And I agree with Mr Herdson, any other course of action would have been bad for the Lib Dems too. And probably worse for the country.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    timmo said:


    You have just proved my point.. thanks

    If your point is, when the Conservatives are in Government, it's easier to get motivated to fight against the Government, er, yes. I'm not sure what other point you have apart from complaining when other parties have the temerity to argue against the Conservatives.

    That isn't just a Conservative thing - it happens when Labour are in Government too. Look at Brent East, sorry, probably shouldn't mention that Conservative fiasco which did for the quiet man ?

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]

    But he still will not set up a plant here because he does not want to pay the wages.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,138

    I can't comprehend why anybody would ever vote for Galloway

    Same sort of reason as some Trump voters. If you hate the Establishment and traditional politics, Galloway is a plausible stuff-you vote. But I think he's a busted flush and will struggle to save his deposit.
    That's a bold prediction!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,136
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    There's nothing moronic about it. I conceded that the realpolitik forced the UK to do otherwise. I just disagree with your Beijing worship.

    What you are referring to is the 99-year lease running out on the New Territories. Ideally, this should have been renewed for a further 50 years (as Thatcher originally wished to do, which is why we have a 50 year UK-Sino transition deal) or treatised permanently via a new treaty.

    There's nothing to say that Hong Kong/Kowloon couldn't have become a city state like Singapore, which also depends on mainland Malaysia. Except that China wanted it back (badly) and there's nothing we could do to stop them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    Scotland has 10% of the UK's civil servants. I doubt there will be a great hiring spree in the event of SINDY.....

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/civilservicestatistics/2015-10-08
    There will not be a mass exodus either, just your usual bile about Scotland , trying to cover up teh fact that your pal May will be up to enforce Westminster's rule today. She will be told to think again.
    We know how big liar's the Tories are , unfortunately we have had lots of their benefits bestowed upon us.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837


    The demographic and psephological profile of Manchester Gorton is awful for the Conservatives.

    Strange you're the third or fourth Conservative or right-wing contributor who feels the need to remind me that Gorton is very bad for the Conservatives.

    The Prime Minister seems to think the Conservative Party is for everyone so by definition there should be no "no go areas" for the Party. I appreciate Gorton isn't the most obvious but it seems the Conservatives only want to fight where it suits them.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
    The Scottish Government's White Paper - no, don't laugh - said:

    The Scottish Government plans to create a new, streamlined Scottish Motor Services Agency, which will bring together the functions of DVLA, DSA, VOSA, and VCA. By the end of the first term of an independent parliament, we will have completed the design and development work, with a view to the Agency going live early in the second Parliament.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    I broadly agree with @david_herdson. Pre 2010 Lib Dem supporters were against a lot of things, notably Iraq of course, but they were a lot less clear of what they were for. It was inevitable that when their votes ultimately counted a lot of their erstwhile supporters were going to be disappointed. The MPs themselves didn't really see it that way. Some of them at least (not Farron interestingly) came into politics to actually do things and this was their chance.

    And they did do things, many of them good. And then they screwed themselves by bad mouthing the government that they had been a part of in a desperate and forlorn attempt to recover their NOTA mojo. But if they had not joined the Coalition they would have been exposed for the waste of space that NOTA almost always is. And they would have been hammered anyway. Life's a bitch sometimes.

    LibDem public support had imploded by about 6 months into the coalition. Their Support at the Scottish election halved between 2007 and 2011 and I don't think it was their record in opposition in Holyrood that did that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    Wasn't that what the Chinese thought we would ask for and were stunned when we said they could have the whole lot back?
    No
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,213
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    I doubt if the locals are amused?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IanB2 said:

    Essexit said:

    On the LDs, they could've got away with being in Coalition if they hadn't u-turned on their flagship policy within months and had negotiated for something better than a referendum on a voting system they didn't want.

    Easy to say. Early in the coalition the LibDems did invest a bit of time looking around the world for lessons from junior coalition situations that had turned out well. The problem is that there really aren't any.
    Maybe they should have looked to a little country called Scotland where a parry not unlike the Lib Dems called the Lib Dems, as junior coalition partners, increased their vote share in successive elections.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]

    Another of the 'we must reconnect to the Commonwealth' Anglospherists. Also a patriot, according to himself.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2017

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
    The Scottish Government's White Paper - no, don't laugh - said:

    The Scottish Government plans to create a new, streamlined Scottish Motor Services Agency, which will bring together the functions of DVLA, DSA, VOSA, and VCA. By the end of the first term of an independent parliament, we will have completed the design and development work, with a view to the Agency going live early in the second Parliament.
    So even by their own view they'd be dependent on the goodwill of the rUK to process the machinery of their government for them for about two parliaments. And to be busy massively investing in their own new systems and processes whilst running a 15% deficit before they begin. A low risk strategy!
    Scottish weather report: 'Rainy with the chance of clusterfuck'.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,988
    tlg86 said:

    Stagecoach has lost the South West Trains Franchise:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39403162

    Another chance to renationalise wasted.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    More or fewer than HMRC employees in a dependent Scotland?

    'East Kilbride tax offices will face future job losses and leave the town in next decade

    HMRC will close most of its existing offices in Scotland, including the Plaza Tower, which has 1000 staff, by 2020-21, with the Centre 1 building closing by 2026.

    Uncertainty remains over the number of job losses, but with a 3000-strong workforce in East Kilbride, Bob Farmer, PCS union president for East Kilbride Revenue and Customs branch, said there is "no question" redundancies are ahead.
    He told the News: "There is a combination of relief among staff in the short term as there wasn't the nuclear option of the building closing right away, but certainly lots of questions remain for staff.
    "Our local concerns are about the long term future of jobs.
    "The impact of the town losing 3000 jobs will be huge."'

    http://tinyurl.com/mzeqcf4
    HMRC nationally is moving from over 150 offices to 13 big regional centres plus a few specialist sites. This will save alot of money for taxpayers. Scotland will have 2 of the 13 centres (Glasgow and Edinburgh) and will have about 12% of HMRC's workforce (vs 8% of population). You talk about some of the offices that will close but not, strangely, about the major new offices to be opened.
    Only a Tory can turn the loss of thousands of jobs into being a bonus. Can you read Patrick.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34798266

    HMRC jobs in Scotland
    What's going to change?

    8,300

    approximate number of jobs

    2,000

    approximate number to be cut
    .

    So, Scotland has more civil servants than population share and hasn't been cut as much as Northern Ireland or the South West......I can't imagine where anyone gets this notion of the ungrateful whinging Scot from....
    I note you have included all the Scottish Government employess in your numbers now, how very Tory, not happy with your 10% which at least had som etruthin it you hav eto find bigger whoppers to show how poor Scotland cannot survive. Amazing such interest in taxpayer employment from a UK tax avoider. Nothing to report on how beneficial tax is on Channel Islands and why we should all avoid paying tax to fund all those Scottish jobs.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited March 2017

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    There's nothing moronic about it. I conceded that the realpolitik forced the UK to do otherwise. I just disagree with your Beijing worship.

    What you are referring to is the 99-year lease running out on the New Territories. Ideally, this should have been renewed for a further 50 years (as Thatcher originally wished to do, which is why we have a 50 year UK-Sino transition deal) or treatised permanently via a new treaty.

    There's nothing to say that Hong Kong/Kowloon couldn't have become a city state like Singapore, which also depends on mainland Malaysia. Except that China wanted it back (badly) and there's nothing we could do to stop them.
    I agree with you on most things, but political arguments divorced from realpolitik are a total waste of time. Imagine if Taiwan had fought a war with Britain in 1842 to force the sale of heroin to Brits, and had picked up the Isle of Wight (permanently) and Southampton on a 99-year lease.

    Would we have remotely considered the possibility of renewing the lease? No.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
    Patrick , I agree it would take 10 to 20 years minimum to sort it out, if they even bothered to try.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    Poor old Theresa, called a fearty before she's even popped out any of the equivocating, non-committal, 'preshuss Union' bromides that are undoubtedly on the way.

    'Theresa May ‘Fears’ Nicola Sturgeon Will Trigger Scottish Independence Referendum During Brexit'

    http://tinyurl.com/kxtggff
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854

    Calling SeanT: saying you're a socialist gets you more sex (in America anyway):

    https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/698734970215493633?ncid=newsletter-uk

    Hasn't that always been the case? Isn't that why right wingers have nothing to do but spend endless days posting on politics websites!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    edited March 2017
    Deleted
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    IanB2 said:


    The LibDem plan was to use the DPM, the Quad, and the spread of Junior ministers to have an input (and a brake) on the Tories across the whole range of government activity. Actually, if you study the detail (and talk to LD ex-ministers as I have), they were actually very successful in getting the Tories to drop a whole raft of potentially dumb and/or unpopular things at an early stage. The trouble is, of course, that it's the things the government actually does that influences the zeitgeist - there is rarely credit in killing a bad idea at birth. Indeed the LibDems probably did the Tories multiple favours in choking off some of their more rabid ideas before they saw the light of day (an EU referendum being one of them).

    The question is whether avoiding the DPM/Quad model and going for, say, Education and/or Environment and opting out of the rest, allows you to reduce the blame you get for everything else the government does. Overseas precedent suggests it doesn't, really, since you have to vote for it anyway and haven't had much input into it.

    Had we not gone into Coalition or made some sort of "deal" with Cameron, we'd have been excoriated for not being "serious" about power and getting things done. Had we stood in opposition and voted down Conservative proposals we didn't like (assuming we'd have got the other opposition parties on side and that's a big if), Cameron would eventually have gone to the country and said "I want to govern but the LDs won't let me" and he'd have won his majority any way.

    The trouble with Coalition is it's not for the adversarial-minded who form the bulk of political activists. The LDs had to vote through measures they didn't like but so too did the Conservatives - that's the true meaning of coalition - compromise. The pressure to form a Government after the 2010 GE prevented a more detailed understanding of how the new arrangement would work in legislation terms.

    2015 was partly the result of those ex-LD voters who couldn't stomach us working with the Conservatives but it was also the very real fear (magnified far beyond reality) of a Labour-SNP Government coming into office combined with Cameron being able to convince that in essence the Coalition could continue even if there were no LD presence. We couldn't promise to continue the Coalition because in 2010 Clegg had said we couldn't.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    Wasn't that what the Chinese thought we would ask for and were stunned when we said they could have the whole lot back?
    No
    Mis-remembered. I suppose the overall point was that China did not recognise any of the treaties as valid.

    To maintain investor confidence, Britain wanted to continue administering Hong Kong after 1997 under Chinese sovereignty. Thatcher said: "Confidence in Hong Kong, and thus its continued prosperity, depend on British administration."

    Unsurprisingly, China rejected this. Zhao is recorded in the British minutes of the meeting as responding: "China would not let others administer Hong Kong.


    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1297462/hard-fought-sino-british-negotiations-over-hong-kong-negotiations
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    Despite being a Scot, Carlotta is very anti Scottish. Maybe living in a tax free environment does it to you.
    She does claim to be Scottish , but certainly does not sound like one , she hates Scotland with a vengence and cannot wait to tell any untruth to denigrate it. All the while from a tax haven that she never mentions. Sounds like a Tory plant to me.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,374
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    I broadly agree with @david_herdson. Pre 2010 Lib Dem supporters were against a lot of things, notably Iraq of course, but they were a lot less clear of what they were for. It was inevitable that when their votes ultimately counted a lot of their erstwhile supporters were going to be disappointed. The MPs themselves didn't really see it that way. Some of them at least (not Farron interestingly) came into politics to actually do things and this was their chance.

    And they did do things, many of them good. And then they screwed themselves by bad mouthing the government that they had been a part of in a desperate and forlorn attempt to recover their NOTA mojo. But if they had not joined the Coalition they would have been exposed for the waste of space that NOTA almost always is. And they would have been hammered anyway. Life's a bitch sometimes.

    LibDem public support had imploded by about 6 months into the coalition. Their Support at the Scottish election halved between 2007 and 2011 and I don't think it was their record in opposition in Holyrood that did that.
    Agree but wasn’t the policy reversal (almost) on tuition fees, IMHO. It was the way it was handled. That and the AV fiasco. Two spectacular own goals in a few weeks.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Interesting thread.

    I found myself pondering where Scotland would be from 2011 if the LDs had not entered a coalition across the UK in 2010.

    No SNP majority? No referendum? No 2015 SNP landslide for Westminster?

    No all those things would have happened even with a Lab LD coalition or a Tory minority government
    Maybe, though the Liberal Democrat collapse has run one parliamentary cycle prior to the Labour.

    They lost 12 seats at Holyrood. Four were direct movers to the SNP, while there is probably an indirect effect in other SNP gains.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Poor old Theresa, called a fearty before she's even popped out any of the equivocating, non-committal, 'preshuss Union' bromides that are undoubtedly on the way.

    'Theresa May ‘Fears’ Nicola Sturgeon Will Trigger Scottish Independence Referendum During Brexit'

    http://tinyurl.com/kxtggff

    Dated 27 February.....Yesterday's News Tomorrow......
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    It is moronic for precisely the reason you state in your last paragraph. There was nothing we could do to stop it.

    I am no more worshipping Beijing for its actions as I worship parking meters for accepting money from people who want to park.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    Despite being a Scot, Carlotta is very anti Scottish. Maybe living in a tax free environment does it to you.
    She does claim to be Scottish , but certainly does not sound like one , she hates Scotland with a vengence and cannot wait to tell any untruth to denigrate it. All the while from a tax haven that she never mentions. Sounds like a Tory plant to me.
    Ah the old No True Scot refuge of the fool who has lost the argument.....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Deleted duplicate
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Having a shocker here posting from my phone.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    chestnut said:

    Interesting thread.

    I found myself pondering where Scotland would be from 2011 if the LDs had not entered a coalition across the UK in 2010.

    No SNP majority? No referendum? No 2015 SNP landslide for Westminster?

    No Brexit?

    It's the Lib Dems that have divided the country not Leavers!
  • malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
    Patrick , I agree it would take 10 to 20 years minimum to sort it out, if they even bothered to try.
    Erm - they'd have to try. Without the goodwill of the rUK Scotland will be actually, practically, physically incapable of becoming truly independent for well over a decade and not capable of administering itself. So....playing nice with London seems a necessary thing to me if the Nats wish Scotland's birth not to be also it's death.
    All the posturing on eg 'we won't take our share of the UK debt if the Bank of England is not our lender of last resort' is crazy talk. London could simply say 'well raise your own VAT then arseholes' and that'd be it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Essexit said:

    On the LDs, they could've got away with being in Coalition if they hadn't u-turned on their flagship policy within months and had negotiated for something better than a referendum on a voting system they didn't want.

    Easy to say. Early in the coalition the LibDems did invest a bit of time looking around the world for lessons from junior coalition situations that had turned out well. The problem is that there really aren't any.
    Maybe they should have looked to a little country called Scotland where a parry not unlike the Lib Dems called the Lib Dems, as junior coalition partners, increased their vote share in successive elections.
    But the LDs in Scotland were genuine coalition partners - not making up the numbers. The Orange Bookers were, are Tory-lite.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837

    tlg86 said:

    Stagecoach has lost the South West Trains Franchise:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39403162

    Another chance to renationalise wasted.
    I'm a regular traveller on South West Trains and they don't do a bad job. The network covers a huge area and is vulnerable especially to weather-related issues and (regrettably) to people choosing to end their lives at places like Woking, Surbiton and Wimbledon but that's hardly SWT's fault.

    Yes, the trains are often busy but show me a line into London that isn't busy between 7 and 9 on a weekday morning. I fear the new owners will seek to make more "efficiencies" and pick a fight with the staff leading to Southern-style disruption.

    One of the things that holds this country back and will continue to do so in Global Britain is our terrible management - whether in the public or private sectors, I've met far too many managers who are simply not up to the job and are more interested in their own personal advancement.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    "Gorton was 72% for remain at the referendum and we do know that those opposed to leaving the EU are probably more motivated than those who aren’t at the moment"

    The Long March fiasco on Saturday suggests otherwise. Allegations of BBC pro brexit bias at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bbc-bias-pro-remain-pro-brexit-coverage-lack-of-too-much-unite-for-europe-trigger-article-50-a7651191.html
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    malcolmg said:

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    Despite being a Scot, Carlotta is very anti Scottish. Maybe living in a tax free environment does it to you.
    She does claim to be Scottish , but certainly does not sound like one , she hates Scotland with a vengence and cannot wait to tell any untruth to denigrate it. All the while from a tax haven that she never mentions. Sounds like a Tory plant to me.
    They do not need to plant any Tories on here Mal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    Last week Erdogan was restoring the death penalty iirc. This week he wants to join the EU.

    I think he will find that the two are incompatible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of the meeting with Sturgeon, May will set out her "Plan for Britain" in an address at the Department for International Development (DFID) in East Kilbride.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/may-prepares-hail-union-unstoppable-force-ahead-sturgeon-meeting-1613820

    I wonder how many DFID employees would keep their jobs in an Independent Scotland....

    They would be made up many times over by other government jobs repatriated from London
    Well, there's 50% of the current HMRC jobs in Scotland to go - unless you're suggesting Scotland's HMRC would be less efficient than England's?
    Yes they are going to England if we stay where we are and many more thousands will be taken south by the Tories.
    That's factually incorrect Malc. The HMRC roles are staying in Scotland but concentrating in Glasgow and Edinburgh. If you vote Sindy though then I guess they'd be massively at risk of going south. I'm sure the rUK would not want some of its core tax effort processed in a foreign country.
    Plenty the same for us Patrick , many more times the amount of public jobs are done outside Scotland as well. Usual claptrap from Carlotta who would hav eScotland as a desert to suit her twisted bitter ego. She really must have failed big time in Scotland.
    The massive practical headache would be how to split service that is currently set up as pan-UK effort back into two distinct national ones. How would Scotland do its own DVLA or its own tax processing for example? I imagine there'd have to be an agreement on very lengthy transitional arrangements.
    Patrick , I agree it would take 10 to 20 years minimum to sort it out, if they even bothered to try.
    Erm - they'd have to try. Without the goodwill of the rUK Scotland will be actually, practically, physically incapable of becoming truly independent for well over a decade and not capable of administering itself. So....playing nice with London seems a necessary thing to me if the Nats wish Scotland's birth not to be also it's death.
    All the posturing on eg 'we won't take our share of the UK debt if the Bank of England is not our lender of last resort' is crazy talk. London could simply say 'well raise your own VAT then arseholes' and that'd be it.
    The Scottish Government White Paper reckoned they'd have it sorted in 5 years and that for example on benefits: shared administration will last only until 2018 which many at the time thought was 'ambitious'.....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @SouthamObserver and HK.

    I remember being in Statue Square on June 30 1997. A tremendous experience (of course I was an ex-pat).

    No one then or now should underestimate the feelings of the PRC towards the former colony. It is an inalienable part of China and people ignore that position at their peril.

    Why echo the propaganda of Beijng?

    Hong Kong was perpetually ceded in 1842, and barely had a population of 8,000 fisherman at the time. Its entire development had nothing to do with China.

    Were it not for the realpolitik forcing us to do otherwise, Hong Kong should either have stayed under British administration for as long as its people wished it, or become an independent sovereign city state like Singapore.

    I couldn't give a toss what Beijing feel about it, accompanied by menacing threats. I care what the people of Hong Kong think.
    No offence, but what a moronic comment.

    Hong Kong Island remain under British administration while the rest of Hong Kong returned to the PRC?

    Oh my aching sides.
    Wasn't that what the Chinese thought we would ask for and were stunned when we said they could have the whole lot back?
    No
    Mis-remembered. I suppose the overall point was that China did not recognise any of the treaties as valid.

    To maintain investor confidence, Britain wanted to continue administering Hong Kong after 1997 under Chinese sovereignty. Thatcher said: "Confidence in Hong Kong, and thus its continued prosperity, depend on British administration."

    Unsurprisingly, China rejected this. Zhao is recorded in the British minutes of the meeting as responding: "China would not let others administer Hong Kong.


    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1297462/hard-fought-sino-british-negotiations-over-hong-kong-negotiations
    Hong Kong was and is a matter of huge pride for the PRC. Now, they may ruin it, but, as at the time, they are not about to let practicalities get in the way of their desire to broadcast their sovereignty.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,987

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]

    Another of the 'we must reconnect to the Commonwealth' Anglospherists. Also a patriot, according to himself.
    For humour value, I thought I'd look up Dyson Ltd's annual accounts (available here). In 2014, the company made profits of £103m, and actually received a tax refund of £0.5m, to take prost-tax profits to to £103.5m. In 2015, tax of £1.6m was charged on pre-tax profits of £22.6m. So, over the last two years, Dyson Ltd has paid £1.1m in taxes on profits of £126m.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    Scotland has a public sector workforce that is 20% of its total. UK average is 17%
    Scotland has a £12bn deficit which is nearly a quarter of the UK total.

    Of course, Scotland could abandon any financial commitments it might be pressed to make to be part of NATO, the EU, EFTA or in overseas aid to address these money matters.

    If it doesn't though, there's a whole lotta cuttin' goin' on.

    Only a numpty would buy the 150 bucks a barrel schtick again.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    He [ Erdogan himself ] wants not to join the EU. In fact, current arrangements suit Turkey fine. Since many countries do not want them anyway, everyone is happy !

    Also, Britain does not have to worry about 88m Turks coming here after Brexit.

    The fact that everyone from [ actually 11m more than the current population ] a country in the G20 and with an economy larger than Saudi Arabia will come over here was probably the most racist propaganda unleashed by the Leavers.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    chestnut said:

    Scotland has a public sector workforce that is 20% of its total. UK average is 17%
    Scotland has a £12bn deficit which is nearly a quarter of the UK total.

    Of course, Scotland could abandon any financial commitments it might be pressed to make to be part of NATO, the EU, EFTA or in overseas aid to address these money matters.

    If it doesn't though, there's a whole lotta cuttin' goin' on.

    Only a numpty would buy the 150 bucks a barrel schtick again.

    Scotland could spend the same amount on defence, say, as Ireland.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Ah the old No True Scot refuge of the fool who has lost the argument.....

    Please remember that this is PedantsBetting.com

    It is "No true scotsman" so it only applies 48.5% of the time :D
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]

    Another of the 'we must reconnect to the Commonwealth' Anglospherists. Also a patriot, according to himself.
    For humour value, I thought I'd look up Dyson Ltd's annual accounts (available here). In 2014, the company made profits of £103m, and actually received a tax refund of £0.5m, to take prost-tax profits to to £103.5m. In 2015, tax of £1.6m was charged on pre-tax profits of £22.6m. So, over the last two years, Dyson Ltd has paid £1.1m in taxes on profits of £126m.
    He probably only drinks coffee from Starbucks.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Having a shocker here posting from my phone.

    Bloody awful things aren't they? Autoincorrect.

    One of my ex colleagues who was a regional head in a government department used to have his surname changed to Brothel every time.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    timmo said:

    I have said it on this forum a few times and i will say it again. The LibDems have a real priblem when attempting to fight labour held seats. Their heart isnt really in it. Their supporters are massively up for tge fight vs the Tories but not vs Labour. Combine that with the brand toxicity that the coslition wrought upon them and you can see why a topple labour strategy doesnt work for them. This is a real problem for the LDs and they need to get their heads around it quickly to turn the situation around.

    Totally agree they need Labour voters to forgive and forget the coalition in Lib Dem v Conservative seats .I think that is beginning to happen and will increase through the many Tory years in front of us.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited March 2017
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    He has heard that the EU will soon have a spare slot for a large country with a population in the 65m - 75m category. I wonder if he wants to pay £14bn a year or expects a discount on a secondhand, used membership slot?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited March 2017
    chestnut said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having a shocker here posting from my phone.

    Bloody awful things aren't they? Autoincorrect.
    fones our grate until the speel chucker goes a rye
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,136
    stodge said:


    The demographic and psephological profile of Manchester Gorton is awful for the Conservatives.

    Strange you're the third or fourth Conservative or right-wing contributor who feels the need to remind me that Gorton is very bad for the Conservatives.

    The Prime Minister seems to think the Conservative Party is for everyone so by definition there should be no "no go areas" for the Party. I appreciate Gorton isn't the most obvious but it seems the Conservatives only want to fight where it suits them.

    Stodge, I don't understand why you so easily revert to being snide when discussing the Conservatives, including an almost automatic reflexive partisan response to any poster who responds to your points?

    We have established a friendly and cordial dialogue on virtually every other issue. So, why can't you take my comments at face value?

    Of course there is a gap between the rhetoric and the reality. It is so for every mainstream political party. May would like to win votes everywhere but the Conservatives also have limited resources and clearly they are not going to fight like lions for Gorton, in the same way Labour would not for Surrey Heath.

    I appreciate it's a bit different for the Lib Dems as they could (arguably) challenge in most places in England.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    He [ Erdogan himself ] wants not to join the EU. In fact, current arrangements suit Turkey fine. Since many countries do not want them anyway, everyone is happy !

    Also, Britain does not have to worry about 88m Turks coming here after Brexit.

    The fact that everyone from [ actually 11m more than the current population ] a country in the G20 and with an economy larger than Saudi Arabia will come over here was probably the most racist propaganda unleashed by the Leavers.
    Who ever said 88m were coming here, why would objecting to 88m immigrants all at once be racist, why is their GDP relevant and why is Saudi Arabia an appropriate comparator?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    Scotland has a public sector workforce that is 20% of its total. UK average is 17%
    Scotland has a £12bn deficit which is nearly a quarter of the UK total.

    Of course, Scotland could abandon any financial commitments it might be pressed to make to be part of NATO, the EU, EFTA or in overseas aid to address these money matters.

    If it doesn't though, there's a whole lotta cuttin' goin' on.

    Only a numpty would buy the 150 bucks a barrel schtick again.

    Scotland could spend the same amount on defence, say, as Ireland.
    The amount that most of Europe is keen to freeload on. Good luck with that lasting.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Ishmael_Z said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    He [ Erdogan himself ] wants not to join the EU. In fact, current arrangements suit Turkey fine. Since many countries do not want them anyway, everyone is happy !

    Also, Britain does not have to worry about 88m Turks coming here after Brexit.

    The fact that everyone from [ actually 11m more than the current population ] a country in the G20 and with an economy larger than Saudi Arabia will come over here was probably the most racist propaganda unleashed by the Leavers.
    Who ever said 88m were coming here, why would objecting to 88m immigrants all at once be racist, why is their GDP relevant and why is Saudi Arabia an appropriate comparator?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3566681/EU-wants-open-door-88million-migrants-says-Gove-starkest-warning-open-borders.html

    There you go!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    TOPPING said:

    Having a shocker here posting from my phone.

    Bloody awful things aren't they? Autoincorrect.
    fones our grate until the speel chucker goes a rye
    Officer Crabtree as a piece of technology.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    surbiton said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    Erdogan to hold referendum on Turkish EU accession https://mobile.twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/status/846264480866676739

    Which result has he selected? :smile:
    He [ Erdogan himself ] wants not to join the EU. In fact, current arrangements suit Turkey fine. Since many countries do not want them anyway, everyone is happy !

    Also, Britain does not have to worry about 88m Turks coming here after Brexit.

    The fact that everyone from [ actually 11m more than the current population ] a country in the G20 and with an economy larger than Saudi Arabia will come over here was probably the most racist propaganda unleashed by the Leavers.
    Who ever said 88m were coming here, why would objecting to 88m immigrants all at once be racist, why is their GDP relevant and why is Saudi Arabia an appropriate comparator?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3566681/EU-wants-open-door-88million-migrants-says-Gove-starkest-warning-open-borders.html

    There you go!
    Govey, a Farage for the man with pretensions to having once read a book.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    chestnut said:

    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    Scotland has a public sector workforce that is 20% of its total. UK average is 17%
    Scotland has a £12bn deficit which is nearly a quarter of the UK total.

    Of course, Scotland could abandon any financial commitments it might be pressed to make to be part of NATO, the EU, EFTA or in overseas aid to address these money matters.

    If it doesn't though, there's a whole lotta cuttin' goin' on.

    Only a numpty would buy the 150 bucks a barrel schtick again.

    Scotland could spend the same amount on defence, say, as Ireland.
    The amount that most of Europe is keen to freeload on. Good luck with that lasting.
    What is NATO or anyone else spending on Ireland's defence ? Who told them to spend that money ? It is bloody wasted anyway.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news James Dyson waxing lyrical about our prospects now we are exiting Europe. From memory I remembered that he'd fired a lot of staff and moved to the far east so I looked him up. This from Wikipedia; (not one to be stuck in the trenches with I'd say)

    An editorial published by The Times responded: "Mr Dyson, a manufacturing version of Sir Richard Branson, likes complaining. Yesterday he was complaining that Britain's failure to join the Euro and the resultant strong Pound will force him to move abroad. Last week he blamed the price of land and planning delays in Wiltshire, but never mind. So where will he go? To Portugal, Italy or to an EU candidate such as Poland? No, Mr Dyson threatens to go to the Far East. Like so many entrepreneurs, he wants a cheap currency and low interest rates, but also low inflation, low wages, a flexible labour market and low regulation. He will not find them in the eurozone."[26] Lord Tebbit, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, also questioned Dyson's motives and said: "[W]hat still puzzles me is why such a euro-enthusiast as [Mr] Dyson does not intend to establish his new factory in Europe if he can't have it in Britain."[27]

    In 2014, Dyson said he would now be voting to leave the European Union to avoid being "dominated and bullied by the Germans".[28] In November 2015, Dyson lost his case against EU energy labelling laws in the European Court of Justice.[29] Dyson was one of the most prominent UK business leaders to publicly support Brexit before the referendum in June 2016.[30] Since the EU referendum, Dyson has stated that Britain should leave the EU Single Market and that this would "liberate" the UK economy.[31]

    Another of the 'we must reconnect to the Commonwealth' Anglospherists. Also a patriot, according to himself.
    It appears the Commonwealth has is own ideas...

    JULIE Bishop has encouraged Irish companies to invest in Northern Australia, as the two countries look to strengthen trade relations off the back of the UK’s decision to leave the European Union.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/julie-bishop-says-irish-investment-would-boost-northern-australia-as-the-two-countries-strengthen-ties/news-story/5fdfbaad8ecaa47fc5f230cf0aab1536
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2017
    His opinion is forever evolving

    He thinks referendums shouldn't decide the result of such matters though
This discussion has been closed.