What was notable about Paris was because of our history with the IRA we are much better than our continental counterparts at tracking the purchase and distribution of bomb making materials, like bleach and fertiliser. Obviously we learnt that the hard way.
The French have had plenty of experience as well, though, from dealing with the Algerian-linked terror groups in the 90s.
Am about to fly from Gatwick to Belfast. Just before getting on the Tube, I had a phone call from the NI flight booker checking I was OK following the terrorist incident in London.
How times change.
Notwithstanding the seriousness of what has happened today that's a cheerful note. A huge amount of progress has been made in Northern Ireland, and I hope that it continues to remain broadly peaceful, and that the politicians there get back to business as soon as possible.
Good security and politics can beat the extremists.
Different type of extremist.
For sure, but I do believe that they are beatable, and it won't be due to upending our way of life, or giving in to them. We are strong (militarily, politically, culturally), and they are weak, which is why they are resorting to using vehicles as weapons, and are armed with knives. If we can beat the IRA, who were much better organised and armed, we can sure as hell beat these idiots.
There is very little that can be said 2 hours from the start of the incident.
I would much prefer they say what is absolutely necessary and certain only later giving a full picture.
hmmm
it does however leave the rumour mill free to mill, I'd have thought gaining control of the news agenda might work better
In a world of 24 hour news channels and social media, there is nothing that the Met can do to control the news agenda. All they can do is give out what is necessary and correct.
Blimey, I was just mulling over whether to go into London to get the train down to Brighton.. don't think I will bother
What horrendous news.
For perspective, Martin McGuinness was the man behind attacks like these 30 years ago, and yesterday Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell seemed close to tears at his death, while Norman Tebbit was outed as a Jimmy Saville apologist for not forgiving him.
I disagree. I was working on a newsdesk when ISIS beheading videos came in. Worst thing I've ever had to see. I would have preferred that we had not shown any footage from any of them, rather than even the edited versions we did show. These people WANT their death-cult propaganda. I say f*** 'em. Put up stills as tributes to their victims but don't give them the terrorist coverage they crave.
Pfft - there's no comparison with beheading videos and seeing run over people with pixelated faces.
I agree with Lucian - our general media tendency to get maximum drama out of everything is catnip for terrorists. Clearly when people have been killed and injured it's very serious and people will want to know all the facts. But screaming headlines, gory pictures, etc.? No thanks. Let's soberly congratulate the police on what sounds like an excellent job, commiserate with the victims, make a statement on any lessons for security, and move on.
As for plato and notme trying to use it to score political points, a little bit of restraint for 24 hours or so might be good, from any political viewpoint whatever. There's a time for political jibes, and a time to have a short pause.
There is very little that can be said 2 hours from the start of the incident.
I would much prefer they say what is absolutely necessary and certain only later giving a full picture.
hmmm
it does however leave the rumour mill free to mill, I'd have thought gaining control of the news agenda might work better
In a world of 24 hour news channels and social media, there is nothing that the Met can do to control the news agenda. All they can do is give out what is necessary and correct.
by saying zit they are leaving the journos free to go feral
they could give an official statement on the number of dead and injured instead junior doctors are now the main source
Sad day, but maybe while we remember the dead and offer our condolences to their families we should not obsess on the attack and its 'success' but celebrate the efficacy of Parliament as it stands unsullied and protected from the terrorist insurgent(s).
We should celebrate and trumpet the bravery and success of the security forces and relentlessly tell the terrorists that they have failed. The target, Parliament is left without even having the outer ring of protection breached.
There are two things that will dispirit the likes of ISIS, failure and ridicule. Destroy them with humour as well as good security and watch them fail and tell them they failed.
"Tobias Ellwood, the foreign minister, attempted to save the life of the policeman who was stabbed just inside the gates of the parliamentary estate.
The Tory MP attempted to give the officer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and stemmed the blood flow by applying pressure to the wounds.
Mr Elwood – himself a former soldier – remained with the injured officer awaiting the for the air ambulance to arrive, which landed off in Parliament Square.
He was later seen with bloodied hands talking to officers close to the incident before returning to the Foreign Office.
I'm with Reuters here - the time for wrapping adult viewers in cotton wool has long passed. Sanitising horrors is counter-productive. If we don't see it - we can't respond to what the perpetrators have done to us.
I consider it appeasement to do so. Pixel out faces - but everything else should be shown.
I totally disagree. Showing horrors is counter productive. It helps the terrorists terrorise.
Bollocks - that's like claiming attacking ISIS makes them stronger.
If we aren't seeing what they've done - we're operating on a false premise. Next someone will claim fighting back will cause Islamophobia. FFS.
Perhaps road safety campaigns should show mangled bodies too, to encourage us to slow down.
Bloke on Sky says there was a body face down in the water under the bridge, and Sky unfortunately showed a picture of a casualty lying at the bottom of some steps with a lot of blood and legs at unnatural angles. Very disturbing.
I'm with Reuters here - the time for wrapping adult viewers in cotton wool has long passed. Sanitising horrors is counter-productive. If we don't see it - we can't respond to what the perpetrators have done to us.
I consider it appeasement to do so. Pixel out faces - but everything else should be shown.
I totally disagree. Showing horrors is counter productive. It helps the terrorists terrorise.
Bollocks - that's like claiming attacking ISIS makes them stronger.
If we aren't seeing what they've done - we're operating on a false premise. Next someone will claim fighting back will cause Islamophobia. FFS.
Perhaps road safety campaigns should show the mangled bodies of toddlers, to encourage us to slow down. If we're not seeing what speeding directly leads to - we're operating on a false premise.
The Taiwanese did exactly that in the 90's when I lived there. Utterly gruesome images on giant display boards in the busy streets exhorting folk to drive more carefully. Randomly grab drivers without helmets and force them to watch film of injured and dead bodies. No regard for the feelings of children or squeamish passers by such as me. I feel the attitude is cultural. They would not dream of a nipple in a national newspaper.
Is there any evidence that it has helped reduce road accidents in Taiwan?
Helmets are worn now. Mother Father and 3 kids under five on a scooter is less common too. The causal effect I don't know.
"Tobias Ellwood, the foreign minister, attempted to save the life of the policeman who was stabbed just inside the gates of the parliamentary estate.
The Tory MP attempted to give the officer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and stemmed the blood flow by applying pressure to the wounds.
Mr Elwood – himself a former soldier – remained with the injured officer awaiting the for the air ambulance to arrive, which landed off in Parliament Square.
He was later seen with bloodied hands talking to officers close to the incident before returning to the Foreign Office.
There's an article in the latest Rail magazine that seems pertinent to a discussion on when, and how, information is released.
The Grayrigg crash was ten years ago last month. Network Rail's press officer knew that the SNLA had made a threat the previous week to derail an express train to Scotland unless the UK government granted Scotland immediate independence. He decided not to publicise that threat - this was before they knew the cause of the crash.
In the end he was right not to. But if it had been the SNLA, and he had 'withheld' the information, he'd probably have paid for it with his job. In ten years the situation's got even worse, with people demanding immediate information.
As the article says: "In that situation, there is not a great deal you can do to make things better, but there is a lot you can do to make things worse. And spreading gossip definitely makes things worse."
Andy HughesVerified account @SkyAndyHughes 4m4 minutes ago More Sky sources: Up to three police officers injured in Westminster terror attack. #BREAKING
Sad to hear of the news from Westminster but glad to hear the security services now have it under control. Am supposed to be doing some calls for Andy Street in an hour if I get there that is
A woman has been pulled ALIVE from the River Thames
Apparently she deliberately dived in, off the bridge, to escape the car
That's a miraculous escape. The fall alone should kill you.
Would it ? ~ Is the Thames very shallow there ?
ISTR an MP once claimed it was possible to walk across the Thames opposite parliament, and tried on a low ?Spring? tide. He failed - it was thought that the building of the Embankments had narrowed the river, causing it to be deeper.
As for the depth: much would depend on the state of the tide. If it as reported, a very lucky woman.
A woman has been pulled ALIVE from the River Thames
Apparently she deliberately dived in, off the bridge, to escape the car
That's a miraculous escape. The fall alone should kill you.
Bridge jumping is apparently one of the nastiest ways to go - your legs are busted and pushed into your torso. Hopefully, the lady isn't terribly injured.
Sad to hear of the news from Westminster but glad to hear the security services now have it under control. Am supposed to be doing some calls for Andy Street in an hour if I get there that is
Best of luck, if I had a vote in that (I don't) I'd be going
1) Nielsen 2) Street.
I think he's a far superior candidate to Simon to be perfectly honest.
I can't see how one person could injure three armed police officers.
Read Ben Ando's excellent book "Beyond the call of duty", about police bravery. There are several stories of how one assailant could take on - and seriously injure - multiple officers armed with tasers and gas. ISTR one assailant was high on drugs. Albeit from memory the cases were in much more enclosed spaces.
A woman has been pulled ALIVE from the River Thames
Apparently she deliberately dived in, off the bridge, to escape the car
That's a miraculous escape. The fall alone should kill you.
Bridge jumping is apparently one of the nastiest ways to go - your legs are busted and pushed into your torso. Hopefully, the lady isn't terribly injured.
We once had a speaker at my Rotary Club who was a parachutist whose chute didn't open, yet he lived to tell the tale.
He was asked what was the last thing that went through his mind. I immediately piped up "His feet!"
Sad to hear of the news from Westminster but glad to hear the security services now have it under control. Am supposed to be doing some calls for Andy Street in an hour if I get there that is
Best of luck, if I had a vote in that (I don't) I'd be going
1) Nielsen 2) Street.
I think he's a far superior candidate to Simon to be perfectly honest.
Indeed am just about to get on the tube at Oxford Circus to St James so will try and get through that first
Have you not learned anything from the Monroe v Hopkins example ?
Oh ye - our libel laws. Its ashame my comment asking @Plato if that wasn't just right wing drivel she was linking to got deleted though. But I do understand that technically myself, @Plato and Mike might be in breach of the law though
I disagree. I was working on a newsdesk when ISIS beheading videos came in. Worst thing I've ever had to see. I would have preferred that we had not shown any footage from any of them, rather than even the edited versions we did show. These people WANT their death-cult propaganda. I say f*** 'em. Put up stills as tributes to their victims but don't give them the terrorist coverage they crave.
Pfft - there's no comparison with beheading videos and seeing run over people with pixelated faces.
I agree with Lucian - our general media tendency to get maximum drama out of everything is catnip for terrorists. Clearly when people have been killed and injured it's very serious and people will want to know all the facts. But screaming headlines, gory pictures, etc.? No thanks. Let's soberly congratulate the police on what sounds like an excellent job, commiserate with the victims, make a statement on any lessons for security, and move on.
As for plato and notme trying to use it to score political points, a little bit of restraint for 24 hours or so might be good, from any political viewpoint whatever. There's a time for political jibes, and a time to have a short pause.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP is on BBC saying his staff saw exactly what happened and it was one man in a 4x4, mowing down pedestrians then jumping out and attacking a police officer w a knife before being shot
Have you not learned anything from the Monroe v Hopkins example ?
Oh ye - our libel laws. Its ashame my comment asking @Plato if that wasn't just right wing drivel she was linking to got deleted though. But I do understand that technically myself, @Plato and Mike might be in breach of the law though
In libel actions there's only one sure thing, the legal profession gets enriched.
'kin hell... you would have though that places has enough police on duty it would be impossible to lose someone who doesn't have an ID badge!
Having been to the Palace of Westminster a few times, it's massive, you feel like you've crossed a couple of time zones walking from one end to the other.
I disagree. I was working on a newsdesk when ISIS beheading videos came in. Worst thing I've ever had to see. I would have preferred that we had not shown any footage from any of them, rather than even the edited versions we did show. These people WANT their death-cult propaganda. I say f*** 'em. Put up stills as tributes to their victims but don't give them the terrorist coverage they crave.
Pfft - there's no comparison with beheading videos and seeing run over people with pixelated faces.
I agree with Lucian - our general media tendency to get maximum drama out of everything is catnip for terrorists. Clearly when people have been killed and injured it's very serious and people will want to know all the facts. But screaming headlines, gory pictures, etc.? No thanks. Let's soberly congratulate the police on what sounds like an excellent job, commiserate with the victims, make a statement on any lessons for security, and move on.
As for plato and notme trying to use it to score political points, a little bit of restraint for 24 hours or so might be good, from any political viewpoint whatever. There's a time for political jibes, and a time to have a short pause.
Fair point.
Though Ken Livingstone is on LBC now blaming Boris for winding down community policing. Which he helpfully pointed out he introduced and Khan is reintroducing.
I disagree. I was working on a newsdesk when ISIS beheading videos came in. Worst thing I've ever had to see. I would have preferred that we had not shown any footage from any of them, rather than even the edited versions we did show. These people WANT their death-cult propaganda. I say f*** 'em. Put up stills as tributes to their victims but don't give them the terrorist coverage they crave.
Pfft - there's no comparison with beheading videos and seeing run over people with pixelated faces.
I agree with Lucian - our general media tendency to get maximum drama out of everything is catnip for terrorists. Clearly when people have been killed and injured it's very serious and people will want to know all the facts. But screaming headlines, gory pictures, etc.? No thanks. Let's soberly congratulate the police on what sounds like an excellent job, commiserate with the victims, make a statement on any lessons for security, and move on.
As for plato and notme trying to use it to score political points, a little bit of restraint for 24 hours or so might be good, from any political viewpoint whatever. There's a time for political jibes, and a time to have a short pause.
Fair point.
Though Ken Livingstone is on LBC now blaming Boris for winding down community policing. Which he helpfully pointed out he introduced and Khan is reintroducing.
Oh FFS. Now if only the media could agree not to let KL have a platform for his addled views - the world would be a better place.
A woman has been pulled ALIVE from the River Thames
Apparently she deliberately dived in, off the bridge, to escape the car
That's a miraculous escape. The fall alone should kill you.
Bridge jumping is apparently one of the nastiest ways to go - your legs are busted and pushed into your torso. Hopefully, the lady isn't terribly injured.
We once had a speaker at my Rotary Club who was a parachutist whose chute didn't open, yet he lived to tell the tale.
He was asked what was the last thing that went through his mind. I immediately piped up "His feet!"
I saw a docu with someone who'd jumped - they totally busted their legs on impact, had hips pushed up and couldn't do anything to save themselves once they realised they weren't dead.
Ended up washed onto river bank - said hitting the water was like meeting freezing cold concrete.
Have you not learned anything from the Monroe v Hopkins example ?
Oh ye - our libel laws. Its ashame my comment asking @Plato if that wasn't just right wing drivel she was linking to got deleted though. But I do understand that technically myself, @Plato and Mike might be in breach of the law though
In libel actions there's only one sure thing, the legal profession gets enriched.
yes but only financially
their black souls just burn that hotter in hell :-)
Since Nice I've been amazed that incidents like this don't happen more often.
It would just so easy to get into a car or van and floor the accelerator down a busy footpath or pedestrian area. And there's absolutely no way of legislating against it.
Comments
We have been lucky and we have reasonably proficient security services.
They need to go back and redesign the format and content.
I would much prefer they say what is absolutely necessary and certain only later giving a full picture.
As MD has mentioned not all have been picked up by the media.
it does however leave the rumour mill free to mill, I'd have thought gaining control of the news agenda might work better
What horrendous news.
For perspective, Martin McGuinness was the man behind attacks like these 30 years ago, and yesterday Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell seemed close to tears at his death, while Norman Tebbit was outed as a Jimmy Saville apologist for not forgiving him.
As for plato and notme trying to use it to score political points, a little bit of restraint for 24 hours or so might be good, from any political viewpoint whatever. There's a time for political jibes, and a time to have a short pause.
How awful!
they could give an official statement on the number of dead and injured instead junior doctors are now the main source
Anyone fancy Essex for that PB drink next week?
We should celebrate and trumpet the bravery and success of the security forces and relentlessly tell the terrorists that they have failed. The target, Parliament is left without even having the outer ring of protection breached.
There are two things that will dispirit the likes of ISIS, failure and ridicule. Destroy them with humour as well as good security and watch them fail and tell them they failed.
'Man ran past me and plunged knife into police officer' https://t.co/DLZ3P1hNd6
(I might have a personal stake in the answer to this question.)
The Tory MP attempted to give the officer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and stemmed the blood flow by applying pressure to the wounds.
Mr Elwood – himself a former soldier – remained with the injured officer awaiting the for the air ambulance to arrive, which landed off in Parliament Square.
He was later seen with bloodied hands talking to officers close to the incident before returning to the Foreign Office.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/hero-mp-parliament-terror-attack-tobias-ellwood-battled-save/
~
Is the Thames very shallow there ?
Do stay safe (and likewise to other PBers).
BREAKING: Woman pulled alive from River Thames after London attack, has serious injuries - Port of London Authority. https://t.co/umSaZ9X7ry https://t.co/e5YyhN28uG
Wishing her and all the other victims a full recovery.
Sky reporting that three officers have been injured.
Was a bearded man confirmed as driver. Who/why was the woman in the river?
The Grayrigg crash was ten years ago last month. Network Rail's press officer knew that the SNLA had made a threat the previous week to derail an express train to Scotland unless the UK government granted Scotland immediate independence. He decided not to publicise that threat - this was before they knew the cause of the crash.
In the end he was right not to. But if it had been the SNLA, and he had 'withheld' the information, he'd probably have paid for it with his job. In ten years the situation's got even worse, with people demanding immediate information.
As the article says: "In that situation, there is not a great deal you can do to make things better, but there is a lot you can do to make things worse. And spreading gossip definitely makes things worse."
Source (Rail 822, page 34)
More
Sky sources: Up to three police officers injured in Westminster terror attack. #BREAKING
Sky sources: Up to three police officers injured in Westminster terror attack. #BREAKING
https://twitter.com/gillian__glen/status/844596014334005249
As for the depth: much would depend on the state of the tide. If it as reported, a very lucky woman.
Play the game this evening with some friends with a rolled up piece of paper and some flour and see how many casualties you can inflict.
1) Nielsen
2) Street.
I think he's a far superior candidate to Simon to be perfectly honest.
Given where it is, it will be covered in CCTV, so you would think the plod / media would know by now.
Jesus there are some real scumbags on twitter! #Westminster https://t.co/ZvLIBdQBCc
Even if they were, with a vehicle you could easily injure or kill, before armed police were able to respond.
Eyewitness Rick Longley describes man with a big knife "plunging it into the policeman" in Westminster attack https://t.co/amXyyzMzUD
He was asked what was the last thing that went through his mind. I immediately piped up "His feet!"
MPs never get enough positive coverage. This is @Tobias_Ellwood giving the wounded police officer CPR. Hero. #Westminster https://t.co/DfSCGLvCa5
Have you not learned anything from the Monroe v Hopkins example ?
But I do understand that technically myself, @Plato and Mike might be in breach of the law though
"Quentin Letts @thequentinletts 3h3 hours ago
Just saw Parliamentary security men shoot a man who had attacked a policeman. Impressive reaction times by police."
Ended up washed onto river bank - said hitting the water was like meeting freezing cold concrete.
their black souls just burn that hotter in hell :-)
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking
Police officer stabbed in UK Parliament attack died at scene, says minister who gave mouth-to-mouth resuscitation
British PM Theresa May to chair government emergency committee meeting following London attack http://aje.io/naz6"
Policeman has died.
It would just so easy to get into a car or van and floor the accelerator down a busy footpath or pedestrian area. And there's absolutely no way of legislating against it.