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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Maybe next time the Tories will have to emulate the GE2015 EdS

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  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It seems that Philip Hammond is being undermined by what looks very like at core the old-style headbanger Brexit awkward squad. Given how much Danegeld Theresa May has paid them, Kipling's poem does spring to mind.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,554
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Freggles said:

    isam said:

    It's a bit of a disaster, but a minor one in the overall scheme of things. I don't think a 2% increase for some well-paid people (which is what this is) is really going to be remembered amidst all the Brexit fallout.

    Someknd posted yesterday that Osborne put up NI for some last year. Is this true?
    Yes, public sector workers
    What was it before, and "after" for

    1) A self employed person earning £30k.
    2) An employed (Private sector) person earning £30k.
    3) An employed (Public sector) person earning £30k.
    My pay slips for March 2016 and April 2016:

    March: £2,818.17 - NI: £227.49
    April: £2,818.17 - NI: £257.54
    My understanding is that this change is due to the ending of contracting-out (of the second state pension/SERPS as was) for defined benefit pension schemes.

    The contracted out arrangements facilitated a reduced NIC in return for a smaller state pension, which was supposedly made good by the relevant defined benefit pension scheme.

    In effect it is another way of getting public sector employees to pay more for their pension rights.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    If the 43 percent are all in Tory marginals...
    Only 30% actually and if any do move it will be to UKIP not Labour.The point remains the NHS and social care need more funds and that had to come from somewhere
  • HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,547
    glw said:

    You probably need to insert the word "self-employed" before "commentators".

    Meanwhile Janet Dailey is on the warpath about the digital tax changes and quarterly inputs.

    I somewhat agree with Daley. There's also a bit of a divide between HRMC and the gov.uk people over systems. If we are going to file quarterly returns the systems had better be top notch.
    Not happy myself. Quarterly will be a right royal pain and I don't care how many PBers write in to say, 'oh, but it will be easy, you already have all these numbers to hand" etc etc.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,376
    HYUFD said:

    I hope you're not calling journalists wankers..
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Someone posted yesterday that Osborne put up NI for some last year. Is this true?

    It's not really true. What he did was end the (partial) contracting-out of NI for public sector workers, marginally reducing the massively unfair advantage which public-sector workers have over almost everyone else in their pension arrangements.

    Unsurprisingly, although as you'd expect the unions were indignant about it, it was so obviously not an unfair change that the indignation didn't get much publicity, and it would be hard to argue that it was a breach of the manifesto pledge.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-osborne-national-insurance-wage-cuts-a6956731.html
    I bow to your superior knowledge.

    All I would say, as an impartial observer, is they both seem reasonable and reasonably able to be sold as a non breakage or breakage depending on where you stand.

    It seems Hammond and May (Remain) have hit a section of society that leans Leave... and Remainers are indignant!!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    Nope conducted after the budget and most voters are not self employed but want more spent on the NHS and social care
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    If he doesn't have the numbers to back his proposal (and my reading is that he doesn't), he will need to bend - or crash.

    https://twitter.com/jgforsyth/status/839815653238456322
    What on Earth makes him think that? Nobody is "unsackable" except maybe HMQ...
    Or Arsene Wenger.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Sky News- Resolution Foundation guy saying dividend changes adversely impact management consultants, lawyers etc,...
  • Sky interviewing someone from Resolution Foundation- 96% of changes to NICs will be paid by wealthiest households.

    One of The Resolution Foundation's Directors is Torsten Bell.

    The EdStone was Torsten's idea.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    tlg86 said:

    OmNICshambles, like the LDs tuition fees pledge, will be remembered

    No it won't.

    I didn't even realise there had been such a pledge. And I pay attention to politics! It's certainly nowhere near the iconic status that the LD tuition fees pledge had.
    In other words 'the party I support broke a pledge and I hope that is forgotten quickly'.
    I voted Lib Dem last time. And Labour the time before.

    Sorry, you lose this game. Try again?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736
    One thing this shows is that it's much, much easier to save money by freezing things in cash terms - which can be a huge real terms cut.

    eg Most benefits - ie tax credits etc - all frozen for this entire Parliament - approx a 10% real terms cut - big money for huge number of people - but media says nothing (though Corbyn goes on about it).

    Whereas Mickey Mouse rise in CASH cost of self-employed NI - mass hysteria breaks out.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    It's not relevant that the majority of the public support the NI rise. What IS relevant is how many of those who do not support the rise are currently Tory voters whose votes might be lost.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Scott_P said:

    @smashmorePH: Tory MP Stephen McPartland tells @daily_politics NIC raise is "not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed".

    No wonder this country owes so much money....when even the smallest and progressive of tax rises is seen as the end of the world.
  • BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    It's not relevant that the majority of the public support the NI rise. What IS relevant is how many of those who do not support the rise are currently Tory voters whose votes might be lost.
    Indeed. And how many Tory MPs also oppose it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    It's not relevant that the majority of the public support the NI rise. What IS relevant is how many of those who do not support the rise are currently Tory voters whose votes might be lost.
    Far more would be lost if social care or the NHS cut or a death tax proposed
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    HYUFD said:

    Given the only polling on the subject has voters backing the NI increase, the Lords and Heseltine are yet again putting themselves against public opinion on Brexit and it was Cameron and Osborne's impossible manifesto commitment to hold income tax and NI rates and cut inheritance tax and increase funding for the NHS and social care which meant something had to give to say this is May's worst week in government is absurd

    These on-the-spot polls often shift following a press barrage (not that I think the reaction to the NIC increase is justified, I don't)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    F1: both times today (and yesterday) the Honda problem was electrical.

    Winning races is especially hard without electricity.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    It's not relevant that the majority of the public support the NI rise. What IS relevant is how many of those who do not support the rise are currently Tory voters whose votes might be lost.
    When put up against labours 50p tax rate and 20% wealth tax I think the answer is rather easy.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,554
    MikeL said:

    One thing this shows is that it's much, much easier to save money by freezing things in cash terms - which can be a huge real terms cut.

    eg Most benefits - ie tax credits etc - all frozen for this entire Parliament - approx a 10% real terms cut - big money for huge number of people - but media says nothing (though Corbyn goes on about it).

    Whereas Mickey Mouse rise in CASH cost of self-employed NI - mass hysteria breaks out.

    And that is why it takes so long to bring government spending back in line with tax receipts; most of the hard work is being done by inflation and general growth of the economy.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295
    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:

    @smashmorePH: Tory MP Stephen McPartland tells @daily_politics NIC raise is "not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed".

    No wonder this country owes so much money....when even the smallest and progressive of tax rises is seen as the end of the world.
    When Osborne was confronted by Tory backbenchers upset about the tax credit cuts, he should have asked them how to come up with the required savings through other spending cuts/tax rises. Hammond should do the same here.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    It seems that Philip Hammond is being undermined by what looks very like at core the old-style headbanger Brexit awkward squad. Given how much Danegeld Theresa May has paid them, Kipling's poem does spring to mind.

    Again, Hammond is not May's placeman. Attacking him is not the same kind of "disloyalty" that Heseltine exhibited.

    I do broadly agree about the likely sense of gratitude from the headbangers, though; buying them off is a pretty dubious transaction in any but the extreme short term.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    ‪The UK's top pension expert speaks. ‬

    https://twitter.com/stevewebb1/status/839816522264625152

    No self interest from the smarmy git obviously.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the only polling on the subject has voters backing the NI increase, the Lords and Heseltine are yet again putting themselves against public opinion on Brexit and it was Cameron and Osborne's impossible manifesto commitment to hold income tax and NI rates and cut inheritance tax and increase funding for the NHS and social care which meant something had to give to say this is May's worst week in government is absurd

    These on-the-spot polls often shift following a press barrage (not that I think the reaction to the NIC increase is justified, I don't)
    They won't on this as most are unaffected
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,146
    kle4 said:

    So yes, the breach if upheld will be thrown in the Tories' faces; are we to believe a government has never had to face that before? We all want promises to be kept, where possible (and unworkable promises not to be made in the first place) and they may and should face consequences for that, but how severe should surely depend on how many times they break promises, for what reason, and what is the alternative offering?

    We did not know before, and we do know now, that Mr Cameron & Mr Osborne were 100% confident that the UK would be remaining in the EU.

    Just as they made no contingency plans for a Leave vote once elected, so their earlier manifesto would not have given any thought to what might be necessary. Indeed, compared to Mr Osborne's threats of a punishment budget, Mr Hammond seems to have managed quite well so far.

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2017
    MikeL said:

    One thing this shows is that it's much, much easier to save money by freezing things in cash terms - which can be a huge real terms cut.

    eg Most benefits - ie tax credits etc - all frozen for this entire Parliament - approx a 10% real terms cut - big money for huge number of people - but media says nothing (though Corbyn goes on about it).

    Whereas Mickey Mouse rise in CASH cost of self-employed NI - mass hysteria breaks out.

    Brown was the master of this...We all ended up paying loads more tax but I bet most people only remember the 50p introduction and 10p removal stunts .
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Alistair said:

    I see that the whole Brexit causing a collapse in support for Scottish independence is gathering pace

    https://twitter.com/ReutersJamie/status/839781081964490757


    Yes, despite @SeanT 's line that Brexit would destroy Sindy, I note that Yes is now favourite.

    Those convinced the polling is wrong/will come back to No should snaffle up the even money available with Hills.

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/scotland-to-vote-for-independence-by-end-of-2024
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

    Indeed, the complacency of Cameron in particular was astonishing.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Pulpstar said:

    @Alistair I genuinely hope the SNP can do it in the next couple of years.


    Agreed. Good luck to our Scottish friends – the time has come for them to make their own way – we should be a good neighbour and wish them well.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    Sky interviewing someone from Resolution Foundation- 96% of changes to NICs will be paid by wealthiest households.

    One of The Resolution Foundation's Directors is Torsten Bell.

    The EdStone was Torsten's idea.
    Theresa seems to be trying to pinch some ideas from it. I'm thinking of immigration.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    isam said:

    Freggles said:

    isam said:

    It's a bit of a disaster, but a minor one in the overall scheme of things. I don't think a 2% increase for some well-paid people (which is what this is) is really going to be remembered amidst all the Brexit fallout.

    Someknd posted yesterday that Osborne put up NI for some last year. Is this true?
    Yes, public sector workers
    Ok, so the Tories had already reneged on a, or more to the point, this, manifesto commitment. Why the outrage this year and not last?
    Self employed columnists weren't effected. Infact Darce and Murdoch probably loved the rise on public sector workers.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736
    edited March 2017
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    The press have totally misjudged this because of self enjoyed journos, 57% back the NI rise according to Sky
    One poll, conducted before the full details of the budget were known.

    Let us wait for some more polling.
    It's not relevant that the majority of the public support the NI rise. What IS relevant is how many of those who do not support the rise are currently Tory voters whose votes might be lost.
    And how many of them will think they'll pay less tax under Corbyn?

    Everyone knows this is peanuts compared to what Corbyn will have in store for them.

    Corbyn's tax changes will impact people in a serious way that they'll really notice.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Could the government not mitigate it for low earning self employed people and make up it up by doing something that would also help the environment like levying VAT on newspapers?
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642

    Pulpstar said:

    The government U-turning would be bad news for them. It was after Osborne u-turned on tax credits that back benchers knew they could push him around

    Hammond needs to stand firm, or he WILL pay the price.

    If he doesn't have the numbers to back his proposal (and my reading is that he doesn't), he will need to bend - or crash.
    His problem is that the NIC rise needs a separate bill – something of a self-denonating turd laid by Ozzy that perhaps the Treasury hadn't properly considered before yesterday's announcement.

    Still, as a Remainer I am not comfortable with Hammond being bullied by the Tory Right – someone, somehow needs to push them back into their box.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,376
    edited March 2017
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    nunu said:

    isam said:

    Freggles said:

    isam said:

    It's a bit of a disaster, but a minor one in the overall scheme of things. I don't think a 2% increase for some well-paid people (which is what this is) is really going to be remembered amidst all the Brexit fallout.

    Someknd posted yesterday that Osborne put up NI for some last year. Is this true?
    Yes, public sector workers
    Ok, so the Tories had already reneged on a, or more to the point, this, manifesto commitment. Why the outrage this year and not last?
    Self employed columnists weren't effected. Infact Darce and Murdoch probably loved the rise on public sector workers.
    I consider myself a student of the tax system and yet I must admit surprise to read here that public and private sector workers paid/pay different rates of NI.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726

    Bojabob said:

    Good post from @Richard_Tyndall OPT. As is often the case with Richard, I don't agree with all of it but his views are always very cogently argued.

    The key point I do agree with is this idea – that has been allowed to fester – that welfare should be a 'pay in, get out' regime. That's simply bonkers. My household income is very high compared to the average and, therefore, I pay a lot of tax, compared to the average. Do I think I should get all that back in services? No. Clearly I pay that as a mixture of a safety net and a general view that all civilised nations have a floor beneath which no citizen should be allowed to fall. Tax and welfare is a cost of running a country and an economy, not some sort of Christmas Savings Club run by HMRC.

    Yep - totally agree. As Marx nearly said about welfare and services: "From each according to his ability to pay, to each according to his needs." Of course, the key debating point is what constitutes "needs".



    Indeed. One point I think we can all hopefully agree on though is that, at the extreme, someone living on £100K a year - whether employed or retired - should not be getting any form of Government handout. If that basic principle is accepted then the question then becomes one of where should the cut off point or taper be set.

    Obviously I am of the opinion that no one earning more than the average wage should be getting handouts. Others of course will disagree but the important point first will be to establish the basic principles and educate people about the new paradigm.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I'm sure Hammond has nothing to worry about. May seems the type that will laugh it off and forgive and forget.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the only polling on the subject has voters backing the NI increase, the Lords and Heseltine are yet again putting themselves against public opinion on Brexit and it was Cameron and Osborne's impossible manifesto commitment to hold income tax and NI rates and cut inheritance tax and increase funding for the NHS and social care which meant something had to give to say this is May's worst week in government is absurd

    These on-the-spot polls often shift following a press barrage (not that I think the reaction to the NIC increase is justified, I don't)
    They won't on this as most are unaffected

    We'll see.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Bojabob said:

    nunu said:

    isam said:

    Freggles said:

    isam said:

    It's a bit of a disaster, but a minor one in the overall scheme of things. I don't think a 2% increase for some well-paid people (which is what this is) is really going to be remembered amidst all the Brexit fallout.

    Someknd posted yesterday that Osborne put up NI for some last year. Is this true?
    Yes, public sector workers
    Ok, so the Tories had already reneged on a, or more to the point, this, manifesto commitment. Why the outrage this year and not last?
    Self employed columnists weren't effected. Infact Darce and Murdoch probably loved the rise on public sector workers.
    I consider myself a student of the tax system and yet I must admit surprise to read here that public and private sector workers paid/pay different rates of NI.
    Was quite shocked about that one. The tax code is mad.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    Bojabob said:

    Still, as a Remainer I am not comfortable with Hammond being bullied by the Tory Right – someone, somehow needs to push them back into their box.

    This is the wrong strategy to defeat them. Pushing them back into their box will just give them more potential to spring back on more important matters. Only through their own victories going sour can they be neutered.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:

    @smashmorePH: Tory MP Stephen McPartland tells @daily_politics NIC raise is "not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed".

    No wonder this country owes so much money....when even the smallest and progressive of tax rises is seen as the end of the world.
    When Osborne was confronted by Tory backbenchers upset about the tax credit cuts, he should have asked them how to come up with the required savings through other spending cuts/tax rises. Hammond should do the same here.
    Well, quite. Somebody will always be hit by a tax rise. If it is unfair but we really want to spend the additional money, somebody come up with something else (cue '0.7% on foreign aid'), or decide that not raising it should be prioritised over whatever it was to be spent on.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:

    @smashmorePH: Tory MP Stephen McPartland tells @daily_politics NIC raise is "not acceptable, it cannot be allowed to proceed".

    No wonder this country owes so much money....when even the smallest and progressive of tax rises is seen as the end of the world.
    When Osborne was confronted by Tory backbenchers upset about the tax credit cuts, he should have asked them how to come up with the required savings through other spending cuts/tax rises. Hammond should do the same here.
    "fiscal conservatives" LOL.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Bojabob said:

    Good post from @Richard_Tyndall OPT. As is often the case with Richard, I don't agree with all of it but his views are always very cogently argued.

    The key point I do agree with is this idea – that has been allowed to fester – that welfare should be a 'pay in, get out' regime. That's simply bonkers. My household income is very high compared to the average and, therefore, I pay a lot of tax, compared to the average. Do I think I should get all that back in services? No. Clearly I pay that as a mixture of a safety net and a general view that all civilised nations have a floor beneath which no citizen should be allowed to fall. Tax and welfare is a cost of running a country and an economy, not some sort of Christmas Savings Club run by HMRC.

    Yep - totally agree. As Marx nearly said about welfare and services: "From each according to his ability to pay, to each according to his needs." Of course, the key debating point is what constitutes "needs".



    Indeed. One point I think we can all hopefully agree on though is that, at the extreme, someone living on £100K a year - whether employed or retired - should not be getting any form of Government handout. If that basic principle is accepted then the question then becomes one of where should the cut off point or taper be set.

    Obviously I am of the opinion that no one earning more than the average wage should be getting handouts. Others of course will disagree but the important point first will be to establish the basic principles and educate people about the new paradigm.
    Against the Finland style universal payment?
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    Scott_P said:
    The start of the metamorphosis of Mrs May into Gordon Brown..another unelected, inert, micromanaging PM. Hammond can ask Darling for tips on being left to deal with messes.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642

    Bojabob said:

    Still, as a Remainer I am not comfortable with Hammond being bullied by the Tory Right – someone, somehow needs to push them back into their box.

    This is the wrong strategy to defeat them. Pushing them back into their box will just give them more potential to spring back on more important matters. Only through their own victories going sour can they be neutered.
    Perhaps you are right.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Sky interviewing someone from Resolution Foundation- 96% of changes to NICs will be paid by wealthiest households.

    One of The Resolution Foundation's Directors is Torsten Bell.

    The EdStone was Torsten's idea.
    Theresa seems to be trying to pinch some ideas from it. I'm thinking of immigration.
    The problem with the EdStone was that five and a half of the six pledges were things that nobody on any side of the House disagreed with...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the only polling on the subject has voters backing the NI increase, the Lords and Heseltine are yet again putting themselves against public opinion on Brexit and it was Cameron and Osborne's impossible manifesto commitment to hold income tax and NI rates and cut inheritance tax and increase funding for the NHS and social care which meant something had to give to say this is May's worst week in government is absurd

    These on-the-spot polls often shift following a press barrage (not that I think the reaction to the NIC increase is justified, I don't)
    They won't on this as most are unaffected
    Maybe. It depends if, even if they are unaffected, people think it is unfair. A sustained enough barrage saying it is could sway opinion, but it just doesn't feel as inherently awful a proposal to justify that reaction to me, hence more focus from some on the fact it is a broken pledge than whether, in the circumstances, it was right to break that pledge.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Paul Goodman (@PaulGoodmanCH)

    Told Treasury/No Ten didn't adequately check NIC plan against Tory Manifesto or what Ministers said in run-up to last election.
    March 9, 2017

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Elsewhere almost half (48%) of voters said that, in the event of Scotland becoming independent, it should be a full member of the EU, while 27% favour an independent Scotland having full single market access outside formal membership and 17% thinking that an independent Scotland should be out of the EU altogether.

    This is why Sturgeon has been hammering on about single market access I would imagine.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Alistair said:

    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.

    I fail to see a path for the SNP to overturn the ~400,000 votes they lost the last referendum by if both sides are so set in their ways.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2017
    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Alistair said:

    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.

    The separatists need to get into the 7s to win. That's a big ask, all else being equal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    midwinter said:

    Scott_P said:
    The start of the metamorphosis of Mrs May into Gordon Brown..another unelected, inert, micromanaging PM. Hammond can ask Darling for tips on being left to deal with messes.
    It is micromanaging for the PM to leave the Chancellor to sort out the budget?

    Run that by me again please.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    The political ramifications will be minimal I think, but this is certainly the day that the Brexit Right lost its innocence. Until then every grievance was easily outsourced to the EU, the ruling classes or the media. (Indeed, some defenders of the NI hike have gone all Trump and claimed that it's just fake news promulgated by peeved freelance journalists.) It is slowly dawning on the Brexit Right that the seat of power can be a lonely and unforgiving place.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Alistair said:

    Elsewhere almost half (48%) of voters said that, in the event of Scotland becoming independent, it should be a full member of the EU, while 27% favour an independent Scotland having full single market access outside formal membership and 17% thinking that an independent Scotland should be out of the EU altogether.

    This is why Sturgeon has been hammering on about single market access I would imagine.

    EEA/EFTA Scotland is the sweet spot.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642

    Alistair said:

    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.

    The separatists need to get into the 7s to win. That's a big ask, all else being equal.
    What do you mean, 'get into the 7s'?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736

    Could the government not mitigate it for low earning self employed people and make up it up by doing something that would also help the environment like levying VAT on newspapers?

    It's not costing self-employed up to £16k anything anyway (!)

    They gain more from Class 2 NIC abolition than they lose from Class 4 NIC rise.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    edited March 2017
    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Alistair I genuinely hope the SNP can do it in the next couple of years.


    Agreed. Good luck to our Scottish friends – the time has come for them to make their own way – we should be a good neighbour and wish them well.
    We will inevitably be imposing border controls and customs duties at Berwick if the Scots choose independence given we are leaving the single market to control immigration
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The political ramifications will be minimal I think, but this is certainly the day that the Brexit Right lost its innocence. Until then every grievance was easily outsourced to the EU, the ruling classes or the media. (Indeed, some defenders of the NI hike have gone all Trump and claimed that it's just fake news promulgated by peeved freelance journalists.) It is slowly dawning on the Brexit Right that the seat of power can be a lonely and unforgiving place.

    Since when were Phil Hammond and Theresa May "the Brexit Right"?

    If Michael Gove were Boris Johnson's Chancellor you might have a semblance of a point.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    edited March 2017
    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295

    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578

    Blimey.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    Scott_P said:
    I wonder if IDS sees May and Hammond as a pair of cuckoos in the Brexit nest. I think they've been quite 'hard Brexit' myself, but perhaps they don't meet IDS's exacting standards. Will IDS decide to install some new, more suitable candidates?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    isam said:

    Bojabob said:

    Good post from @Richard_Tyndall OPT. As is often the case with Richard, I don't agree with all of it but his views are always very cogently argued.

    The key point I do agree with is this idea – that has been allowed to fester – that welfare should be a 'pay in, get out' regime. That's simply bonkers. My household income is very high compared to the average and, therefore, I pay a lot of tax, compared to the average. Do I think I should get all that back in services? No. Clearly I pay that as a mixture of a safety net and a general view that all civilised nations have a floor beneath which no citizen should be allowed to fall. Tax and welfare is a cost of running a country and an economy, not some sort of Christmas Savings Club run by HMRC.

    Yep - totally agree. As Marx nearly said about welfare and services: "From each according to his ability to pay, to each according to his needs." Of course, the key debating point is what constitutes "needs".



    Indeed. One point I think we can all hopefully agree on though is that, at the extreme, someone living on £100K a year - whether employed or retired - should not be getting any form of Government handout. If that basic principle is accepted then the question then becomes one of where should the cut off point or taper be set.

    Obviously I am of the opinion that no one earning more than the average wage should be getting handouts. Others of course will disagree but the important point first will be to establish the basic principles and educate people about the new paradigm.
    Against the Finland style universal payment?
    That depends on job losses through automation
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    MikeL said:

    Could the government not mitigate it for low earning self employed people and make up it up by doing something that would also help the environment like levying VAT on newspapers?

    It's not costing self-employed up to £16k anything anyway (!)

    They gain more from Class 2 NIC abolition than they lose from Class 4 NIC rise.
    I was trying to be flippant.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Alistair I genuinely hope the SNP can do it in the next couple of years.


    Agreed. Good luck to our Scottish friends – the time has come for them to make their own way – we should be a good neighbour and wish them well.
    We will inevitably be imposing border controls and customs duties at Berwick if the Scots choose independence given we are leaving the single market to control immigration
    So similar to what the deranged Brexit fundamentalists are planning on the River Foyle then?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736
    If they back down, they obviously find some of money by cancelling the abolition of Class 2 NI.

    But that only finds some of the money.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    edited March 2017
    I have not been a great fan of May's style since she became PM, but if she holds firm on this issue I will gain more appreciation of her - the outrage simply doesn't seem to match the crime here, for all, yes, it breaks a manifesto promise, and backing down seems unwarranted.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    Scott_P said:
    I wonder if IDS sees May and Hammond as a pair of cuckoos in the Brexit nest. I think they've been quite 'hard Brexit' myself, but perhaps they don't meet IDS's exacting standards. Will IDS decide to install some new, more suitable candidates?
    I suspect their ire is more with Hammond than May.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the only polling on the subject has voters backing the NI increase, the Lords and Heseltine are yet again putting themselves against public opinion on Brexit and it was Cameron and Osborne's impossible manifesto commitment to hold income tax and NI rates and cut inheritance tax and increase funding for the NHS and social care which meant something had to give to say this is May's worst week in government is absurd

    These on-the-spot polls often shift following a press barrage (not that I think the reaction to the NIC increase is justified, I don't)
    They won't on this as most are unaffected
    Maybe. It depends if, even if they are unaffected, people think it is unfair. A sustained enough barrage saying it is could sway opinion, but it just doesn't feel as inherently awful a proposal to justify that reaction to me, hence more focus from some on the fact it is a broken pledge than whether, in the circumstances, it was right to break that pledge.
    If I was Hammond I would say I will scrap the hike and keep all Cameron and Osborne commitments against tax rises, then say he will also slash spending on the NHS and social care and make backbench NIC rebels the key spokesmen for the Tories on the new cuts
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734
    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    MikeL said:

    Could the government not mitigate it for low earning self employed people and make up it up by doing something that would also help the environment like levying VAT on newspapers?

    It's not costing self-employed up to £16k anything anyway (!)

    They gain more from Class 2 NIC abolition than they lose from Class 4 NIC rise.
    That's what is so stupid about the moaning. Most self employed people will be better off.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734
    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    glw said:

    MikeL said:

    Could the government not mitigate it for low earning self employed people and make up it up by doing something that would also help the environment like levying VAT on newspapers?

    It's not costing self-employed up to £16k anything anyway (!)

    They gain more from Class 2 NIC abolition than they lose from Class 4 NIC rise.
    That's what is so stupid about the moaning. Most self employed people will be better off.
    Yeah, but not journos, lawyers, management consultants and their ilk.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    Sean_F said:

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
    A very standard Conservative government implementing a key part of Michael Foot's manifesto?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Bojabob said:

    Alistair said:

    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.

    The separatists need to get into the 7s to win. That's a big ask, all else being equal.
    What do you mean, 'get into the 7s'?
    On the scale 50% of voters are at 7 or above.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    tlg86 said:

    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578

    Blimey.
    How can two polls published on the same day be so different?

    Opinionway has it 62-38 and Ipsos 55-45

    The 7 point change can be explained because their previous head to head poll took place on 20th January, before the Filon scandal hit.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    Scott_P said:
    I wonder if IDS sees May and Hammond as a pair of cuckoos in the Brexit nest. I think they've been quite 'hard Brexit' myself, but perhaps they don't meet IDS's exacting standards. Will IDS decide to install some new, more suitable candidates?
    I suspect their ire is more with Hammond than May.
    Indeed she's still happily driving the Tory party up an ideological dead end road with IDS in the passenger seat exhorting her to greater speed. Going to be an almighty crash at some point.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734

    Sean_F said:

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
    A very standard Conservative government implementing a key part of Michael Foot's manifesto?
    Back in the day, the Conservative Party supported rationing. Times, and political circumstances, change.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
    A very standard Conservative government implementing a key part of Michael Foot's manifesto?
    Back in the day, the Conservative Party supported rationing. Times, and political circumstances, change.
    Rationing was a temporary policy. As I'm sure withdrawal from the EU is a temporary policy to appease a confused party and a fatigued electorate...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    BudG said:

    tlg86 said:

    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578

    Blimey.
    How can two polls published on the same day be so different?

    Opinionway has it 62-38 and Ipsos 55-45

    The 7 point change can be explained because their previous head to head poll took place on 20th January, before the Filon scandal hit.
    If Fillon is only 55-45 ahead of Le Pen heading into round 2, well he doesn't make it into round 2.

    BOTH Macron & Fillon need to implode for Le Pen to have a chance. This offers some protection of value when laying her out.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    edited March 2017
    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Disagree. She might be in touch with the members in a way Cameron wasn't. Tory inclined floating voters not so much. They'll stick with the Tories currently because there's no viable alternative and because of the perception of competence. That could change very quickly.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sean_F said:

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
    A very standard Conservative government implementing a key part of Michael Foot's manifesto?
    Michael Foot preceded Delors.

    As a great mind is said to have once said "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
  • One thing’s for sure Cameron/Osborne would not have made this mistake.

    Really?
    The title 'Omnishambles' budget comes from the first of Osborne's two disastrous budgets.
    So bad I think it gave Ed Miliband quite a lift.
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Alistair said:

    Bojabob said:

    Alistair said:

    Key infographic is this one I think

    image

    Prior to the last referendum I had estimated the Indy till I die tendancy and the Unionist to the core supporter at about 25% and 35% respectively. That still seems to be roughly the case.

    The separatists need to get into the 7s to win. That's a big ask, all else being equal.
    What do you mean, 'get into the 7s'?
    On the scale 50% of voters are at 7 or above.
    7-10 are unionist divisions. Do you/he mean 1-4?
  • Pulpstar said:

    BudG said:

    tlg86 said:

    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578

    Blimey.
    How can two polls published on the same day be so different?

    Opinionway has it 62-38 and Ipsos 55-45

    The 7 point change can be explained because their previous head to head poll took place on 20th January, before the Filon scandal hit.
    If Fillon is only 55-45 ahead of Le Pen heading into round 2, well he doesn't make it into round 2.

    BOTH Macron & Fillon need to implode for Le Pen to have a chance. This offers some protection of value when laying her out.
    What if you're laying her in instead of out?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654

    One thing’s for sure Cameron/Osborne would not have made this mistake.

    Mike is wrong here,

    TAX CREDITS.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238

    One thing’s for sure Cameron/Osborne would not have made this mistake.

    Really?
    The title 'Omnishambles' budget comes from the first of Osborne's two disastrous budgets.
    So bad I think it gave Ed Miliband quite a lift.

    They only lost a referendum.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    Sean_F said:

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    midwinter said:

    isam said:

    The mad thing for me, when I hear Tory Remainers complaining, is how much worse it could have been! We have two people from Cameron's cabinet, both Remainers, in charge... yet Leavers are ok with it and Remainers want them out!

    It's not all about Remain and Leave tbh. More that Tessie seems to want to play with the headbangers.

    And some may remember her lack of support and carefully orchestrated interventions during the Referendum of course.
    The "headbangers" are the ordinary Conservative voters. Theresa May is in touch with them in a way that her predecessor wasn't.
    Ordinary Tory voters are headbangers?
    Hence, the inverted commas. This is a very standard Conservative government, not a hard-right government.
    Hmmm. I always associate "headbangers" with an identifiable subsection of the Tory parliamentary party. In another age, they would be the "b*stards".
  • One thing’s for sure Cameron/Osborne would not have made this mistake.

    Really?
    The title 'Omnishambles' budget comes from the first of Osborne's two disastrous budgets.
    So bad I think it gave Ed Miliband quite a lift.

    They only lost a referendum.
    But sealed their place in history
  • Nigel Farage Just Visited The Ecuadorian Embassy In London


    Asked by BuzzFeed News if he'd been visiting Julian Assange, the former UKIP leader said he couldn't remember what he'd been doing in the building.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/wait-what?utm_term=.ns2VB7Oa7#.oqYxgRanR
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    edited March 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    BudG said:

    tlg86 said:

    No evidence of Fillon stabilising here.

    https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/839816824275480578

    Blimey.
    How can two polls published on the same day be so different?

    Opinionway has it 62-38 and Ipsos 55-45

    The 7 point change can be explained because their previous head to head poll took place on 20th January, before the Filon scandal hit.
    If Fillon is only 55-45 ahead of Le Pen heading into round 2, well he doesn't make it into round 2.

    BOTH Macron & Fillon need to implode for Le Pen to have a chance. This offers some protection of value when laying her out.
    The first round figures from this Ipsos poll are, according to this article linked below are:


    Le Pen 27
    Macron 23 (down 2)
    Fillon 19.5 (up 2)

    http://www.lepoint.fr/politique/emmanuel-berretta/ipsos-fillon-reprend-du-poil-de-la-bete-09-03-2017-2110489_1897.php
  • BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    midwinter said:

    Scott_P said:
    I wonder if IDS sees May and Hammond as a pair of cuckoos in the Brexit nest. I think they've been quite 'hard Brexit' myself, but perhaps they don't meet IDS's exacting standards. Will IDS decide to install some new, more suitable candidates?
    I suspect their ire is more with Hammond than May.
    Indeed she's still happily driving the Tory party up an ideological dead end road with IDS in the passenger seat exhorting her to greater speed. Going to be an almighty crash at some point.
    How bizarre that every one of the PM, Loto and Chancellor shares either a surname or a given name with a member of the former Top Gear trio.
This discussion has been closed.