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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How long will it take for the Lib Dems to recover?

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  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Crosby may be helping the Tories to gain some votes but they're still struggling to get to an overall majority position. Surely it's a win or bust strategy? Won't this just drive the Lib Dems into the arms of Labour?

    As for his approach, it makes me despair. It's just not cricket. Of course the Australians are sometimes known to play by a different set of values.

    Given Mr McTernan did the same sort of job for Tony here and Julia in Oz - what's your point? That only Labour is allowed to play this game?
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596


    As for his approach, it makes me despair. It's just not cricket. Of course the Australians are sometimes known to play by a different set of values.

    would it be libellous if labour made a billboard saying "just look at this c____. just look at him. the tories want to take advice from this w___"

    i suppose it might be defamatory


  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757
    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    Plato - by in the wake I am of course referring to the collapse in 2008. It's true that unemployment hasn't been too bad but it can't be repeated often enough. This is the slowest economic recovery from a recession since the 1870s. The coalition has to accept part of the blame for that due to its bungling on the economy.
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 662
    Plato said:

    @PBModerator - are we allowed to discuss Operation Millipede?

    You may by all means post a link to the story from a reputable news agency, but no comments on it are being accepted at this time.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757

    Crosby may be helping the Tories to gain some votes but they're still struggling to get to an overall majority position. Surely it's a win or bust strategy? Won't this just drive the Lib Dems into the arms of Labour?

    As for his approach, it makes me despair. It's just not cricket. Of course the Australians are sometimes known to play by a different set of values.

    Campbell, McBride.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,497
    Absolutely bloody brilliant post, Mr. Slackbladder.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.
    It'd be interesting to see how well or badly constituencies/councils have faired after say 15yrs or more of a one party state.
  • @Slackbladder

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.

    Undoutedly true for the lefty, spendy, 'run out of other peoples' money', identity politics, chippy, PC sort. Detroit is the end point of lefty politics - it's just not always clear over what timeframe you get there.

    But has a centre-right, sound money, conservative (with a small 'c') government anywhere ever reduced itself to penury? I can't think of an example. No doubt tim will do some research and let us know!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Plato said:

    @PBModerator - are we allowed to discuss Operation Millipede?

    You may by all means post a link to the story from a reputable news agency, but no comments on it are being accepted at this time.

    Operation Millipede - Oh .... I thought it was a naughty story about Ed that had legs ....

    I'll get my cape ....

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    @PBModerator - are we allowed to discuss Operation Millipede?

    You may by all means post a link to the story from a reputable news agency, but no comments on it are being accepted at this time.

    So this is okay > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2378412/20-law-firms-paid-rogue-detectives-steal-personal-data-MPs-think-scandal-worse-phone-hacking-Press.html?ico=news^headlines
  • @tim

    So Wales was fine while it was under Tory control but fell off a cliff after it came under lefty self-control.

    Hmm....no similarities with 13 years of new Labour and our national finances, educational performance, etc ad nauseam I'm sure....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Patrick said:

    @Slackbladder

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.

    Undoutedly true for the lefty, spendy, 'run out of other peoples' money', identity politics, chippy, PC sort. Detroit is the end point of lefty politics - it's just not always clear over what timeframe you get there.

    But has a centre-right, sound money, conservative (with a small 'c') government anywhere ever reduced itself to penury? I can't think of an example. No doubt tim will do some research and let us know!

    I always felt with Detroit and to a lesser extent Newark [which fell apart within a decade or so] were the victims of extreme Lefties mixed with extreme Righties in the Mob/corruption which is just capitalism on steroids.

    It's a truism that the moment a place becomes more *equal* the more aspiring sorts resort to bribery/extortion to get their advantage. Just like Zil lanes and dachas whilst the prols lived in hutches and waited 20yrs to buy a Trabant.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,897
    Patrick said:

    Energy independence for the UK could be a massive boon to our economy. In the short to medium term shale can help significantly.

    But in the longer term it's much less clear. Conventional oil will eventually become cost uncompetitive. Gas and shale oils may last alot longer - but not forever. We'll hit peak coal at some point too (earlier in China than elsewhere).

    The end state (I'm talking a century or more) for mankind will be nuclear. Possibly Thorium based fission. Possibly deuterium based fusion. Once either of these is cracked at a commercial scale then we're good to go for centuries. Renewables will make some contribution but will never predominate as they are just too diffuse - you'd have to cover the planet in windfarms and solar panels.

    Governments with an eye to future stability and independence should commit proper R&D funding to new nuclear.

    Is that the almost worthless oil that is running out and will be sure to make Scotland almost bankrupt and unable to survive.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.

    Wales had direct rule with a Tory Welsh secretary for 18 years, and since then the most votes Labour have gained in a Welsh Assembly election is 40%

    So Labour in charge of Wales directly or devolved for the 16 years from 1997 doesn't count ....

    Hhhmmm ....

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757
    JackW said:

    tim said:

    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.

    Wales had direct rule with a Tory Welsh secretary for 18 years, and since then the most votes Labour have gained in a Welsh Assembly election is 40%

    So Labour in charge of Wales directly or devolved for the 16 years from 1997 doesn't count ....

    Hhhmmm ....

    Not to mention local government etc...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10202902/Smoking-drinking-and-drug-use-fall-dramatically-among-children.html

    "Just 43 per cent of children aged 11 to 15 had ever drunk alcohol last year compared with 61 per cent in 2002, according to a survey of 7,590 school pupils by the Health and Social Care Information Centre.

    The number who had tried smoking dropped from 42 per cent to 23 per cent over the same period, and the number who had ever used drugs fell from 27 per cent to 17 per cent.

    Health experts have long claimed that alcohol, tobacco and drug use is declining among teenagers but the new figures reveal for the first time the scale of change over a decade of public health initiatives. The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said.

    The survey also revealed a wide variation in the behaviour of children across the country, with just over half of pupils in the North East having drunk alcohol compared with less than a third in London. The North East also had the highest proportion of smokers, with 30 per cent of pupils having tried cigarettes in contrast to 22 per cent in London, and the East and West Midlands.

    But drug use was more common in the south, with 20 per cent of children in London admitting to having used drugs compared with a low of 15 per cent in Yorkshire and Humber and the North West. " >>
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:



    So Labour in charge of Wales directly or devolved for the 16 years from 1997 doesn't count ....

    Hhhmmm ....

    I'm not sure when Year Zero started here - was it 1979 but ended in 1997?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    No, he has continued the Labour government's policy on plain packaging.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    'The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said."

    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    Really TIm?
    Could you point out when Cameron reversed these measures?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757
    tim said:

    'The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said."

    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    Is Cameron re-introducing tobacco advertising now? Must have missed that press-release.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    'The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said."

    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    As A Farmer "tim" chose the same old route.

    A Lie.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:


    The survey also revealed a wide variation in the behaviour of children across the country, with just over half of pupils in the North East having drunk alcohol compared with less than a third in London.

    Are those figures adjusted for religion?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'll leave Henry G Manson's avowedly partisan approach to the question to one side.

    The Lib Dems for as long as I have been following politics have defined themselves by what they are against. They are against cuts. They are against the war in Iraq. They are against dogshit and potholes.

    What the Lib Dems have not done at any stage is define themselves by what they are for. Since they are now in government, that's rather a major problem. It means they get no credit for positive things done by the government and get lots of blame for the unpopular things (even the unpopular things that they haven't been the prime movers for).

    So the Lib Dems will only fully recover after an extended spell in opposition, when once again they can define themselves satisfyingly by being against things that the public don't approve of. The alternative - that the Lib Dems will start to define themselves positively - is too fantastical to contemplate.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    tim said:

    'The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said."

    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    correlation doth not equal causation, on the other hand.

    the drop in the number of children smoking can be put down to the drop in the number of their parents smoking.

    - anyone (even a non expert) can make a casual evidence-free assertion

    not that i particularly care about tobacco advertising
  • @MalcolmG

    Is that the almost worthless oil that is running out and will be sure to make Scotland almost bankrupt and unable to survive.

    I'm not entirely sure I understand what your point is with this comment. Scotland will enjoy a period of continuing but declining revenue from oil. The future for gas production in the UK (conventional offshore in the southern North Sea and shale) looks alot brighter - but is predominantly in England.

    The receipts into a national exchequer (be that full UK or newly independent Scotland) from oil will decline in line with production. Scotland could survive and indeed thrive without it. Hell, Japan has no oil or gas at all and seem to have done well enough (apart from the continuing lost decade). But to thrive Scotland will need to pursue policies of international competitiveness.

    (And a hint: It's not the competition to see who can look most like Detroit the quickest!)
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    @Plato

    Wales has 22 councils: 10Labour controlled (all S.Wales & the Valleys) , 2 Independent (Powys & Pembrokeshire) and 10NOC.

    There is a strong move to revert to says 7-8 larger councils to save costs.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    As a father - Ed Miliband didn't find time to sign his own child's birth certificate...

    We can play this game all day but it adds precisely nothing but pixels.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Financier said:

    @Plato

    Wales has 22 councils: 10Labour controlled (all S.Wales & the Valleys) , 2 Independent (Powys & Pembrokeshire) and 10NOC.

    There is a strong move to revert to says 7-8 larger councils to save costs.

    That's interesting - Wales has so much going for it but as you note - Bristol which is a long way from London just as Cardiff is doesn't have the same baggage. I'm rather fond of Bristol and love the accent.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Plato said:

    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.
    It'd be interesting to see how well or badly constituencies/councils have faired after say 15yrs or more of a one party state.
    How about ... hmmmmmmmmm ... Rotherham?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Has anyone seen Hunchman? I'm waiting for this stock market crash that was meant to begin yesterday.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Another mess inherited from New Labour:

    "Mr Vaz is also planning to write to former Home Secretaries Jacqui Smith and Alan Johnson, as well as Theresa May, the current Home Secretary, to ask what they knew of and did about plans to regulate private investigators.
    The three all had access to a Soca report on the illegal activities of a rogue element in the investigation industry.
    A report on an operation called Project Riverside was written to bolster the case for regulating the sector and sent to the Home Office in January 2008. Ms Smith carried out a consultation and plans were laid for the Security Industry Authority to license private detectives. But since she left office in 2009 there has been no progress."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3825705.ece

    I wonder why the Guardian is not pursuing this with zeal?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Patrick said:

    Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?

    Detriot: decades of democrats in charge without competition
    Wales: decades of Labour in charge without competition

    This isn't a party political comment, but any area (this applies to tories etc as well) which tribally vote for one party time in, time out, is causing potential long term problem for themselves.
    It'd be interesting to see how well or badly constituencies/councils have faired after say 15yrs or more of a one party state.
    How about ... hmmmmmmmmm ... Rotherham?
    I'm trying very hard to be neutral but there are some places that do shriek out...
  • JonCJonC Posts: 67
    House of Lords reform as proposed by Clegg was about the worst idea I have heard for some years. 15 years single fixed terms? riiiiight

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Another mess inherited from New Labour:

    "Mr Vaz is also planning to write to former Home Secretaries Jacqui Smith and Alan Johnson, as well as Theresa May, the current Home Secretary, to ask what they knew of and did about plans to regulate private investigators.
    The three all had access to a Soca report on the illegal activities of a rogue element in the investigation industry.
    A report on an operation called Project Riverside was written to bolster the case for regulating the sector and sent to the Home Office in January 2008. Ms Smith carried out a consultation and plans were laid for the Security Industry Authority to license private detectives. But since she left office in 2009 there has been no progress."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3825705.ece

    I wonder why the Guardian is not pursuing this with zeal?

    The links between that and Operation Millipede are very clear. I hope Mr Vaz pursues them with vigour. There is a lot of very murky stuff in there if reports are accurate. That the police failed to follow through is just another disappointment.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Incidentally, isn't it heartening to see the deep-rooted commitment of doctors to the concept of an NHS free at the point of use?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/25-to-see-your-gp-majority-of-doctors-want-to-charge-patients-for-routine-appointments-8732498.html

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Regional GDP per capita values only seem to go back to 1989, when Wales was at 84.3% of the UK average. By 1997 it was at 80.3% and by 2010 it was at 74% of UK average. At 25% it also has the second highest percentage of public sector workers after N Ireland.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    JonC said:

    House of Lords reform as proposed by Clegg was about the worst idea I have heard for some years. 15 years single fixed terms? riiiiight

    You think it's worse than a single fixed term appointment for life?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    JonC said:

    House of Lords reform as proposed by Clegg was about the worst idea I have heard for some years. 15 years single fixed terms? riiiiight

    Not the brightest cookie in the political universe.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tim said:

    tim said:

    'The drop in the number of children smoking, in particular, can be put down to measures like a ban on the advertising of tobacco a decade ago, and the smoke-free laws introduced in 2007, experts said."

    As A Father David Cameron chose a different route.

    Is Cameron re-introducing tobacco advertising now? Must have missed that press-release.
    Cameron has reversed his own govt's health policy on plain packaging.
    A lie.

    The government has said it will delay implementation until it sees the results from Australia - and possibly Scotkand. It has not said it will not implement it - which is what a reversal would be.

    You do know that New Labour were the second last government to implement the smoking ban in the British Isles, don't you?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tim said:

    Another mess inherited from New Labour:

    "Mr Vaz is also planning to write to former Home Secretaries Jacqui Smith and Alan Johnson, as well as Theresa May, the current Home Secretary, to ask what they knew of and did about plans to regulate private investigators.
    The three all had access to a Soca report on the illegal activities of a rogue element in the investigation industry.
    A report on an operation called Project Riverside was written to bolster the case for regulating the sector and sent to the Home Office in January 2008. Ms Smith carried out a consultation and plans were laid for the Security Industry Authority to license private detectives. But since she left office in 2009 there has been no progress."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3825705.ece

    I wonder why the Guardian is not pursuing this with zeal?

    I wonder why Cameron limited the remit of Leveson?
    I wonder why New Labour did nothing with Operation Nigeria, Operation Motorman or Operation Glade?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Another mess inherited from New Labour:

    "Mr Vaz is also planning to write to former Home Secretaries Jacqui Smith and Alan Johnson, as well as Theresa May, the current Home Secretary, to ask what they knew of and did about plans to regulate private investigators.
    The three all had access to a Soca report on the illegal activities of a rogue element in the investigation industry.
    A report on an operation called Project Riverside was written to bolster the case for regulating the sector and sent to the Home Office in January 2008. Ms Smith carried out a consultation and plans were laid for the Security Industry Authority to license private detectives. But since she left office in 2009 there has been no progress."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3825705.ece

    I wonder why the Guardian is not pursuing this with zeal?

    Or C4 - whilst I have a fairly dim view of their bias, C4 does do some cracking investigative work as well. Their stuff on Plebgate was very solid and surprising given it was about a Tory - I assume on the scale of Who We Hate Least, a Tory on a bicycle is better than a copper.
  • Fenster said:

    A comment piece written by a Labourite who can't forgive the Lib Dems for forming a mature and harmonious coalition with a right of centre party.....

    I agree. It began with a reasonable state of play assessment into the Lib Dems and then drifted into a partisan rant by Mr Manson. We can read stuff like "The NHS is being fragmented and privatised through the Health and Social Care Act. Record numbers of people are being fed by food banks, civil liberties are being eroded..." many times a day by the PB Labour spin merchant tim. Today we start out with this tripe.

    Much better if partisan pieces are written about their own party and not items of attack dog politicking.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JonathanD said:

    Regional GDP per capita values only seem to go back to 1989, when Wales was at 84.3% of the UK average. By 1997 it was at 80.3% and by 2010 it was at 74% of UK average. At 25% it also has the second highest percentage of public sector workers after N Ireland.

    Thanks - that's a huge drop in Wales.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Patrick said:

    Detroit is the end point of lefty politics

    Detroit probably has more to do with the decline of employment in car manufacturing than with any sort of politics. When a one-industry town loses its major source of employment, be it industry or coal-mining, the rest of the local economy dies too.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Neil said:

    JonC said:

    House of Lords reform as proposed by Clegg was about the worst idea I have heard for some years. 15 years single fixed terms? riiiiight

    You think it's worse than a single fixed term appointment for life?
    No but at least with the Lords they know they're not legitimate. Grant someone a 15 year term and although they'd have been elected before even 9/11 they'll be so-called "legitimate".
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    House building boom on the way.

    "A total of 67,422 new homes were registered in the first half of this year with the National House Building Council (NHBC), the sector’s non-profit insurance and standards body. That was the highest such figure since 2008.

    Taking the second quarter of 2013 alone, there was a 38pc increase seen on a year earlier to 35,683 starts."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/10203032/Number-of-new-homes-hits-5-year-high-says-industry.html


    Balls should stay hiding in the US for a bit longer. Did he release a Gordon Brown style Youtube video at all yesterday?
  • JonCJonC Posts: 67
    I hope future generations have an answer to the problems caused by today's youth deciding to be healthier and living to an average age even higher than now!

    NHS is already struggling with the ageing population.
    Pensions will be even less valuable than now
    Given Osborne's stupid measures to pump up house prices first time buyers will be waiting until their 50s or 60s to buy, when they can inherit deposits from their nonegenarian parents...

    So what do we do? Charge for healthcare? Encourage smoking instead? Logan's run style approach..?!
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:



    If you haven't seen it - there's a good article from John McTernan re Lynton Crosby - John was right in the thick of it in Australia with Gillard. And was Tony's political secretary.

    Hahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!

    You've moved seamlessly from the comedy stylings of Dan Hodges to John"no-brainer" McTernan.

    Unspoofable indeed. ;^ )

    McTernan was a SLAB joke even before he went out and made a complete tit of himself with Gillard. Or did you somehow forget that part?



  • Q: How long will it take for the Lib Dems to recover?
    A: Probably take at least 18 months starting from when the Coalition ends. First they have to start the clock by separating themselves from the Coalition. So if they ended the coalition this year, they might go into GE2015 on the up. The risk is that there is an early GE caused by the early end of the coalition.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    JonathanD - So 3 years too late the government has finally embraced Keynesian intervention. Hardly a victory for free marketeers is it?

    That said Balls is a big disappointment as shadow chancellor. Miliband should really think about replacing him but there isn't an obvious alternative at the moment. I think there is some promise in the younger generation in Labour (Reeves, Umunna, Creasy, Leslie, Hunt) but they aren't ready yet.
  • JonCJonC Posts: 67
    Neil said:

    JonC said:

    House of Lords reform as proposed by Clegg was about the worst idea I have heard for some years. 15 years single fixed terms? riiiiight

    You think it's worse than a single fixed term appointment for life?
    Yes. Any kind of election leads to party placemen. A massive strength currently is crossbenchers, and also the degree of autonomy of those who take the party whip. Plus appointees come from all walks of life, not just failed MPs and councillors, other politicians and no-mark greasy pole climbers who have never had a proper job.

    HoL not being elected works well. HoC has primacy, rightly.turning the 2nd chamber into a 2nd rate HoC would lose all the advantages of the current system for precious little discernible gain.
  • @DecrepitJohnL

    Have you ever heard of the UAW? Have you ever wondered why 'Detroit' (that is to say a certain model of car production) in the USA became so horribly uncompetitive?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JonathanD said:

    House building boom on the way.

    "A total of 67,422 new homes were registered in the first half of this year with the National House Building Council (NHBC), the sector’s non-profit insurance and standards body. That was the highest such figure since 2008.

    Taking the second quarter of 2013 alone, there was a 38pc increase seen on a year earlier to 35,683 starts."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/10203032/Number-of-new-homes-hits-5-year-high-says-industry.html


    Balls should stay hiding in the US for a bit longer. Did he release a Gordon Brown style Youtube video at all yesterday?

    I can't help feeling that Labour's navel gazing for THREE YEARS is coming back to bite them on the bum. Refounding Labour is dead, Blue/Purple/Black Labour and whatever else they called it stuff from Peter Hain's massive consultation went nowhere. It's still a blank sheet of paper - not a hint of what's on offer.

    Now things are generally picking up on jobs, house sales, GDP etc - they've nothing positive to say. Just carping which is very unattractive. Tony made the same mistake in 1995ish when he bitched constantly about good news and it really put me off. That I still recall thinking *Shut up and what are you going to do about it* almost 20yrs later is a cautionary tale.

    My mother had an expression which Labour would do well to chew on 'Telling someone they're fat, doesn't make you thin'.

    Well Labour needs to find something positive to say, rather than define themselves by what they aren't - I can't recall a speech EdM has given where he hasn't talked in aspirational apple pie wonk bollox or what he's against.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,559
    Just one point on an article which is too partisan for proper discussion. The idea that the Lib Dems are good at being against stuff but not at saying what they are for is blown out of the water by the number of Lib Dem administrations at council level who have provided clear and stable leadership, focussing on the environment, public transport, inward investment etc.

    If there's a party who are defined purely by what they're against, it's surely UKIP?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Sorry can you explain what the issue was? What experiences have you had??
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Mick_Pork said:

    Plato said:



    If you haven't seen it - there's a good article from John McTernan re Lynton Crosby - John was right in the thick of it in Australia with Gillard. And was Tony's political secretary.

    Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!!

    You've moved seamlessly from the comedy stylings of Dan Hodges to John"no-brainer" McTernan.

    Unspoofable indeed. ;^ )

    McTernan was a SLAB joke even before he went out and made a complete tit of himself with Gillard. Or did you somehow forget that part?



    Ah, John McTernan, there's a blast from the past!

    Here was his advice to Iain Gray shortly before Salmond gained his overall parliamentary majority via the polling stations:
    'MUGGERS. Sex offenders. Burglars. Vote SNP." That would be one side of my campaign leaflet if I was running Scottish Labour's campaign. On the other would be a mock-up of a "Get Out of Jail Free" card with the strapline: "The SNP want to free 8,000 prisoners." Negative? Oh yes. A mighty row? Yep. Effective? Without a doubt.

    There are a lot of myths about political campaigning. Top of these is the idea that negative campaigning never works.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/john-mcternan-playing-nasty-card-might-get-results-1-1607494

    If you want to study the decline and fall of the once-mighty Scottish Labour Party, study the astonishing career of John McTernan. What a dud.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Coming down the M4 and taking our jobs?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    More memorable John McTernan moments:

    'A Tory revival would be good for Scotland'

    http://www.labourhame.com/archives/1843

    "Police are quizzing everyone involved in last year's peerage appointments, and yesterday it emerged that one of Mr McConnell's election campaign chiefs, John McTernan, was interviewed for a second time recently by police under caution. Police may quiz him and No10 chief of staff Jonathan Powell again following the arrest of Prime Minister Tony Blair's aide Ruth Turner on Friday."

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/HAPPY+JACK;+But+SNP's+MacNeil+says+Labour+in+crisis.-a0158189890
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD - So 3 years too late the government has finally embraced Keynesian intervention. Hardly a victory for free marketeers is it?

    I think Keynesian intervention only works if you build up a surplus in the good years and yet Labour were running deficits at the height of the boom.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    FB..On one project the Producer, who was obliged to have me on board, and who never said a word to me over an 8 week period, would walk on the set every day and announce in a loud voice "I can smell dog sh*t, there must be an Englishman on the set" the crew always applauded his devastating wit.
    The mainly Welsh crew on that shoot took delight in jumping on the Union Jack flag at the end of one scene, they also spat on it, there were also numerous other insults,all day and every day.The Exec Prod asked me not to walk away, so I stayed ..just to pee them off..Nice folk
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,211
    tpfkar said:

    Just one point on an article which is too partisan for proper discussion. The idea that the Lib Dems are good at being against stuff but not at saying what they are for is blown out of the water by the number of Lib Dem administrations at council level who have provided clear and stable leadership, focussing on the environment, public transport, inward investment etc.

    If there's a party who are defined purely by what they're against, it's surely UKIP?

    A very good point. Lib Dems in local government have proved themselves just as capable as the Conservatives or Labour.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Coming down the M4 and taking our jobs?
    No they are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages and of Owain Glyndwr. They blame the English for Wales' misfortunes and many insist that Wales could sustain itself independently.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD - So 3 years too late the government has finally embraced Keynesian intervention. Hardly a victory for free marketeers is it?

    I think Keynesian intervention only works if you build up a surplus in the good years and yet Labour were running deficits at the height of the boom.

    Labour supporters like the idea of Keynes because he advocated State intervention during times of economic distress. But the bit they forget is that this was to be paid for using the profits saved during times of plenty.

    All very biblical - and perfectly rational. But you can't only play the spendy card as there's no grain left in the barn. And borrowing money to buy it is expensive because everyone is short in a famine.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,088
    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Coming down the M4 and taking our jobs?
    No they are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages and of Owain Glyndwr. They blame the English for Wales' misfortunes and many insist that Wales could sustain itself independently.
    if 25 % of the population emigrated they probably could.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    FB..On one project the Producer, who was obliged to have me on board, and who never said a word to me over an 8 week period, would walk on the set every day and announce in a loud voice "I can smell dog sh*t, there must be an Englishman on the set" the crew always applauded his devastating wit.
    The mainly Welsh crew on that shoot took delight in jumping on the Union Jack flag at the end of one scene, they also spat on it, there were also numerous other insults,all day and every day.The Exec Prod asked me not to walk away, so I stayed ..just to pee them off..Nice folk

    I once knew a guy who bought a run down hotel in the highlands. He thought that everyone hated him because he was English. However, the real reason that everyone hated him was because he was a nasty, arrogant, vindictive, bullying thug.

    There were plenty of well-loved and respected English people in that village, but that fact seemed to have escaped the hotel owner's attention.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Coming down the M4 and taking our jobs?
    No they are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages and of Owain Glyndwr. They blame the English for Wales' misfortunes and many insist that Wales could sustain itself independently.
    This chippiness is very strange and very unattractive. Honey catches more bees than vinegar, but nationalists play the It's All Their Fault card a lot. Making yourself a victim doesn't strike me as very constructive or a good auger for future relationships 'My wife doesn't understand me...'
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    No one has stated that Casualty is suffering from a lack of personnel. A lot of crew just cant be bothered with the hassle..but then being an expert on just about everything on the planet you would know all about that

    And nowt as strange as a Cheshire Farmer who has a Manor house and works in an off licence in Liverpool
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    tim said:

    FB..On one project the Producer, who was obliged to have me on board, and who never said a word to me over an 8 week period, would walk on the set every day and announce in a loud voice "I can smell dog sh*t, there must be an Englishman on the set" the crew always applauded his devastating wit.
    The mainly Welsh crew on that shoot took delight in jumping on the Union Jack flag at the end of one scene, they also spat on it, there were also numerous other insults,all day and every day.The Exec Prod asked me not to walk away, so I stayed ..just to pee them off..Nice folk

    I once knew a guy who bought a run down hotel in the highlands. He thought that everyone hated him because he was English. However, the real reason that everyone hated him was because he was a nasty, arrogant, vindictive, bullying thug.

    There were plenty of well-loved and respected English people in that village, but that fact seemed to have escaped the hotel owner's attention.

    I wonder if the PB Tories will spot the subtle point you're making there.
    The odds are long. Very long.
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 662
    edited July 2013
    NO MORE DISCUSSION OR COMMENT ON ANY ONGOING POLICE INVESTIGATION PLEASE>
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,088

    FB..On one project the Producer, who was obliged to have me on board, and who never said a word to me over an 8 week period, would walk on the set every day and announce in a loud voice "I can smell dog sh*t, there must be an Englishman on the set" the crew always applauded his devastating wit.
    The mainly Welsh crew on that shoot took delight in jumping on the Union Jack flag at the end of one scene, they also spat on it, there were also numerous other insults,all day and every day.The Exec Prod asked me not to walk away, so I stayed ..just to pee them off..Nice folk

    I once knew a guy who bought a run down hotel in the highlands. He thought that everyone hated him because he was English. However, the real reason that everyone hated him was because he was a nasty, arrogant, vindictive, bullying thug.

    There were plenty of well-loved and respected English people in that village, but that fact seemed to have escaped the hotel owner's attention.
    everyone hated him was because he was a nasty, arrogant, vindictive, bullying thug.

    I had a scottish boss just the same, but he knew it and rejoiced in it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,376
    I'll be honest I'm struggling to see how a plain pack or otherwise can influence anyone to smoke or otherwise. Are people just particularly weak-minded ?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    Wales..I have had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot some TV programmes in Wales .Scotland is now very Anti English but Wales is miles ahead in the hate game.It is so bad that I turned down THE major TV series because it was set in Cardiff. and now Casualty is a total no go area for a lot of people....mega chips on small shoulders.

    Coming down the M4 and taking our jobs?
    No they are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages and of Owain Glyndwr. They blame the English for Wales' misfortunes and many insist that Wales could sustain itself independently.
    Support for Welsh independence remains weak, with 7% backing it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-17212309

    This is like the anecdote X Factor final.

    richard dodd vs Anecdotier.

    Bring it on, tell us about your journey.

    I think you'll find that what we need is the scholarly perspective of noted historian, relationship expert and TV obsessive, Philomena Cunk.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXZpoeGqoe4

    Golly. ;^ )


  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    Ideally governments should run surpluses when the economy is booming. Ed Miliband has made a big mistake in not stating that labour got it wrong on fiscal policy before 2008 (though he could also point out that Osborne pledged to match Labour spending as well).

    However the national debt was relatively low in historic terms in 2010 as were the borrowing costs for the government and the interest payments on government debt. There was no need for radical fiscal austerity and any sensible government would have realised that the economy needed some government intervention to help it get back on its feet again. However this was ideologically acceptable to the man who cried at Thatcher's funeral. Belatedly he has embraced Keynesian intervention and the economy is growing again, although I'm not convinced housing is the right sector to be supporting.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    I did of course mean ideologically unacceptable in the previous post.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Tim , some people have a life and some just watch and sell cans of Special brew..and lie about their farm
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll be honest I'm struggling to see how a plain pack or otherwise can influence anyone to smoke or otherwise. Are people just particularly weak-minded ?

    Neither can I - when could I possibly be influenced by packaging to take it up?

    Erm... well I can't see in any magazine or newspaper or cinema advert or on the telly or on a racing car or watching any sport or a bus-stop or a shop display or awning for a newsagent or in fact anywhere bar stood outside a pub or office when a colleague who already smoked lit up.

    Or at home.

    If you want to smoke - you will. Packets are smothered in pictures of tumours and warnings it'll make you impotent. I can't see how removing a brand name really makes any difference except to the counterfeiters.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Just think: if Ed Miliband becomes PM, Henry will be writing an article almost exactly like this about Labour in 2017.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    Richard Dodd - what hassle can't people be bothered with? Having to move from filming in one city to another. I suppose the cost of the Severn Bridge doesn't help. Or have they got a problem with the locals in Cardiff?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Given that we know the Daily Mail is the most read paper of Unite members - the comments under this story show that the Home Offices mobile billboards are quite popular - either a good idea, or Tories snatching UKIP stuff.

    UKIP is all huffy about it as another party parks tanks on their lawn.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2377600/Tory-posters-telling-illegal-immigrants-Go-Home-branded-nasty-UKIPs-Nigel-Farage.html
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    FB In my case it is not being able to fly in and Cardiff is not a very attractice City to spend a lot of time in... Hassle..lots of crew members have told me they are simply not interested in the job, slightly remote for crew to travel home at weekends etc.. it is costly to live there and absolutely no expenses. Why bother when it is easier to get a job in Manchester or London and see your family more often.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I see my countrymen are coming in for criticism this morning.

    As a keen student of Labour's appalling record in government in the principality, is there any new news that's sparked this off??
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:

    is there any new news that's sparked this off??

    Having done everything else I think it was just Wales' turn.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Another lie from the Cheshire Farmer/offie worker..he seems to hav an endless supply of them
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    Cheshire Farmer.. you are much funnier when you just tell straight lies, why dont you clean out a barn or dust one of your special offer shelves.
    It must be depressing to see life sliding by, sitting behind that counter waiting for the ping of the shop door bell, such excitement.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,527
    SeanT said:

    Put it like that, Henry, and I'm tempted to vote for this government.




    A comment that really should make Lib Dems think what on earth they are doing in this government.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    SeanT said:



    Race is also a factor. Detroit is one of the extreme examples of white flight (which apparently doesn't exist, according to lefties):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marilyn-salenger-white-flight-and-detroits-decline/2013/07/21/7903e888-f24a-11e2-bdae-0d1f78989e8a_story.html

    The whole tale of Detroit is appalling - it ticks every box from overweening influence by unions, complacent management re design, violence on an extraordinary scale and a collapse in the aspirational population who decamped en masse.

    I keep mentioning Newark - it suffered experienced a mini-Detroit and is just getting back on its feet.

    "Poverty remains a consistent problem in Newark, despite its revitalization in recent years. As of 2010, roughly one-third of the city's population is impoverished.[58] The 1967 riots resulted in White flight, a significant population loss of the city's middle class, many of them Jews, which continued from the 1970s through to the 1990s.[59] The city lost about 130,000 residents between 1960 and 1990. The city's formerly most populous ethnic group, Non-Hispanic White,[60] declined from 82.8% in 1950 to 11.6% by 2010.[61]

    Newark has been marred with episodes of political corruption throughout the years. Five of the previous seven Mayors of Newark have been indicted on criminal charges, including the previous three Mayors: Hugh Addonizio, Kenneth Gibson, and Sharpe James. As reported by Newsweek: "... every mayor since 1962 (except the current one, Cory Booker) has been indicted for crimes committed while in office".[106]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark,_New_Jersey

    In 1996, Time magazine ranked Newark "The Most Dangerous City in the Nation."[110] By 2007, however, the city recorded a total of 99 homicides for the year, representing a significant drop from the record of 161 murders set in 1981.[111][112][113][114] The number of murders in 2008 dropped to 65, a decline of 30% from the previous year and the lowest in the city since 2002 when there were also 65 murders.[115]

    In 2011, Newark recorded 90 homicides, after experiencing 86 homicides in 2010.[116] Overall, there was a 6% increase in crime numbers over the previous year, including a rise in carjackings for the third straight year.[117] Along with the increase in crime, the Newark Police Department increased its recovery of illegally owned guns in 2011 to 696, up from 278 in 2010.[116]
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I see the Cheshire Farmer missed the Guido piece on Labours odd tax arrangements..I wonder why.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SeanT said:

    Put it like that, Henry, and I'm tempted to vote for this government.


    Patrick said:

    Detroit is the end point of lefty politics

    Detroit probably has more to do with the decline of employment in car manufacturing than with any sort of politics. When a one-industry town loses its major source of employment, be it industry or coal-mining, the rest of the local economy dies too.
    Race is also a factor. Detroit is one of the extreme examples of white flight (which apparently doesn't exist, according to lefties):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marilyn-salenger-white-flight-and-detroits-decline/2013/07/21/7903e888-f24a-11e2-bdae-0d1f78989e8a_story.html
    White flight; race riots; the doughnut effect; decline of manufacturing employment in a one-industry town; healthcare costs. Doubtless all these things played a part with complex interactions between them. But what seems to be a new pb meme of "decades of one-party rule" is juvenile sloganising.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    SeanT said:

    Put it like that, Henry, and I'm tempted to vote for this government.


    Patrick said:

    Detroit is the end point of lefty politics

    Detroit probably has more to do with the decline of employment in car manufacturing than with any sort of politics. When a one-industry town loses its major source of employment, be it industry or coal-mining, the rest of the local economy dies too.
    Race is also a factor. Detroit is one of the extreme examples of white flight (which apparently doesn't exist, according to lefties):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marilyn-salenger-white-flight-and-detroits-decline/2013/07/21/7903e888-f24a-11e2-bdae-0d1f78989e8a_story.html
    White flight; race riots; the doughnut effect; decline of manufacturing employment in a one-industry town; healthcare costs. Doubtless all these things played a part with complex interactions between them. But what seems to be a new pb meme of "decades of one-party rule" is juvenile sloganising.
    Dear John, a simple point I asked earlier was for a comparison of decline/improvement in areas controlled by a single party over many years - I suggested 15yrs as a minimum.

    Rather than bitch about examples given by those run by your preferred end of politics [Labour and Democrats] - perhaps you'd like to find horror stories in ones run by Tories, GOPers or LDs to counter them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,511
    OT, we talked a bit before about how UKIP might soften up their brand a bit to widen their support base. This is an interesting move by Farage coming after the government to the left on the "go home" vans. Since he has a much more convincing story to tell the right on actual policy, he might have a bit of room to cultivate a cuddlier, more tolerant image. I wonder where else he might do it.

    Farage:
    "I think the actual tone of the billboards is nasty, unpleasant, Big Brother."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/25/coalition-row-adverts-illegal-immigrants?CMP=twt_gu
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Graeme Archer does excellent stuff and a very worthy Orwell Prize winner

    "...Persecuted, prosecuted, and found guilty (and sentenced to five years in a "corrective labour colony") on charges of stealing wood (if I'd time, I'd think of some homoerotic joke to insert about Putin's toplessness here), the charismatic blogger faced being disbarred from the mayoral election in Moscow this year.

    And then he was freed. Only on bail, but free. And you wonder: why would they do that?

    Part 1, Chapter 4 of George Orwell’s 1984. Winston is pondering how to deal with references to an unperson, Withers, whom he understands to be dead:

    You could not invariably assume this to be the case when people were arrested. Sometimes they were released and allowed to remain at liberty for as much as a year or two years before being executed. Very occasionally some person whom you had believed dead long since would make a ghostly reappearance at some public trial where he would implicate hundreds of others by his testimony before vanishing, this time for ever." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/graemearcher/100228096/why-alexei-navalnys-release-like-the-rest-of-his-trial-comes-straight-out-of-orwells-1984/

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited July 2013

    SeanT said:

    Put it like that, Henry, and I'm tempted to vote for this government.


    Patrick said:

    Detroit is the end point of lefty politics

    Detroit probably has more to do with the decline of employment in car manufacturing than with any sort of politics. When a one-industry town loses its major source of employment, be it industry or coal-mining, the rest of the local economy dies too.
    Race is also a factor. Detroit is one of the extreme examples of white flight (which apparently doesn't exist, according to lefties):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marilyn-salenger-white-flight-and-detroits-decline/2013/07/21/7903e888-f24a-11e2-bdae-0d1f78989e8a_story.html
    White flight; race riots; the doughnut effect; decline of manufacturing employment in a one-industry town; healthcare costs. Doubtless all these things played a part with complex interactions between them. But what seems to be a new pb meme of "decades of one-party rule" is juvenile sloganising.
    The problem is decades of Labour misrule.Once an area starts voting Labour it's dead set on its journey to dereliction and squalor.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:

    the GOP run deep south has particular problems

    Could be legacy issues from when the deep south was a one party state run by the Democrats.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    OT, we talked a bit before about how UKIP might soften up their brand a bit to widen their support base. This is an interesting move by Farage coming after the government to the left on the "go home" vans. Since he has a much more convincing story to tell the right on actual policy, he might have a bit of room to cultivate a cuddlier, more tolerant image. I wonder where else he might do it.

    Farage:

    "I think the actual tone of the billboards is nasty, unpleasant, Big Brother."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/25/coalition-row-adverts-illegal-immigrants?CMP=twt_gu


    Sorry EiT but no, he's just very narked that the HO did it first. As is the prerogative of HMG - they steal the ideas of others and implement them.

    If Farage thought he could get away with it, he'd have been there like a rat up a drainpipe. I'm amazed the HO did it - but its winning thumbs up from locals who aren't happy.

    Remember - this is aimed at ILLEGAL residents who've no right to be here at all. What is Japan's attitude to those who ignore the rules?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,446
    Jet-lagged in Chicago, but having a bit of a laugh at Guido and his retweeters who believe it is damaging to Labour that the party paid no corporation tax last year. Wonderful, spell-binding ignorance. In other shocking revelations, Labour paid no tax on extracting oil from the North Sea either.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Plato said:


    If Farage thought he could get away with it, he'd have been there like a rat up a drainpipe.

    I dunno, he has his flaws but he doesnt strike me as being that thick.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The whole tale of Detroit is appalling..

    Detroit is fascinating because of the precedent it may set. If the City has said 50 years ago that it wasn't in the business of pension provision and municipal workers would have to make their own arrangements there would be no bankruptcy.

    As it is, the concept of 'bankrupting' public pension schemes and telling workers they will have to accept less is now coming into being. And it could spread.

    It could prove very popular, because private sector workers will always vastly outnumber public sector ones - and private sector people are the real bankrollers.

    Under the current system, private sector workers have to look after their own pensions and pay for entitlements they could only dream of.

    I reckon if a political party brought in a public sector pensions payment cap, under which it paid no public sector workers more than a ceiling amount (no matter how much they earned) it might prove popular.

    I read a certain senior police office retired at fifty on sixty six grand a year. I don't see any votes being lost if the ceiling was set at say, fifty grand.
  • tim said:

    Neil said:

    tim said:

    the GOP run deep south has particular problems

    Could be legacy issues from when the deep south was a one party state run by the Democrats.

    I'm sure thats part of it.
    It's probably more complex than "decades of one party rule" as the list of the ten poorest US states would confirm

    Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee, West Virginia, Louisiana, Montana, South Carolina, Kentucky, Alabama, and North Carolina.

    How many of them are Democrat states in Presidential elections?
    None.
    You'll find some Democrat elected officials of course but the idea that is being perpetuated on here by the usual suspects that the poorest areas are somehow addicted to Democrat voting and taxpayer subsidies looks somewhat amiss.

    In fact most of those states look GOP and addicted to agricultural subsidies if you wanted to make a more informed political point
    How many of those states were run by Democrat controlled legislatures for most of the last 100 years? South Carolina had 100+ years of Democrat rule until the 1990s. Maybe not the best example.
This discussion has been closed.