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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How long will it take for the Lib Dems to recover?

SystemSystem Posts: 12,008
edited July 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How long will it take for the Lib Dems to recover?

This summer Nick Clegg said he wants his party to become a “fully-fledged party of government”. Despite that his party faces wipeout in 2014 and 2015 on top of the electoral hammer blows it’s received since it formed a Coalition with the Conservatives.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,674
    Brutal!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,482
    So they should put Henry down as "undecided"?

    I think they'll pick up a bit as the election approaches and they pick up some of the "Cameron and Miliband are both shit" vote.

    They don't get their council base back until next time they're in opposition, at which point they'll obviously get a new leader.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Latest YouGov/The Sun results 25th July - Con 32%, Lab 38%, LD 11%, UKIP 11%; APP -27
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited July 2013
    This triumph seems to have been forgotten.

    Youth unemployment contract

    Conceived by Nick Clegg, this scheme saw £1bn set aside for wage incentives to get employers to take on long-term unemployed young people. It was in effect imposed on the DWP by Clegg's staff, who briefed at the time of its announcement that persuading the Tories to back it had been like trying to "persuade vegetarians to eat kebabs"......

    .....The aim had been over three years to find jobs for 160,000 18- to 24-year-olds unemployed for six months or more – about 53,000 a year. Employers had been offered a maximum of £2,275 for retaining someone for more than six months, yet after a year only 4,690 young people had benefited from the payment, and only 2,070 had received subsidy covering the full six months.......

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jul/25/welfare-revolution-poor-results

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,482
    The related question coming out of Henry's post is what achievements the LibDems will run on in 2015. I would suggest:
    - Taking people out of tax helping the poor.
    - Expansion of renewable energy - I assume there's been some given the technological improvements in renewables.
    - Keeping a grip on spending and getting the economy on track without letting the Tories bite too many tramps.

    They should also come up with a new policy to differentiate themselves, like legalizing weed.

    I think this will be more than enough for a campaign.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The bias on some of Henry's threads is getting utterly ridiculous. I see nothing about getting the tax free allowance up to £10k (a Lib Dem manifesto commitment) or many other successes, while lowering Labour's deficit.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,958
    Brutal but of course also totally one sided.

    The higher tax threshold in particular is a major success, and the Lib Dems can certainly point to Osborne and say how much worse it could have been. In fact, although the Euros will probably be bad ( as usual) the Eastleigh by election shows that the party is pretty resilient in areas where it has resources. In fact, I think the clever money is not on whether the party faces wipe out, it clearly does not, but how much it can hold its own. In opposition their support mid term is often in the low teens, and then they usually climb to the low twenties. This time it will likely be lower, but 18% could still see the majority of held seats staying in the yellow column, and even has the possibility of gains. In the next 18 months much can improve for Clegg.

    After All, Ed Miliband is hardly setting the heather alight is he?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,452
    The LibDems have always had a substantial "none of the above" vote, which they're largely forfeiting in Government. Parties in decline sometimes become more loyal, though - a feature of Labour in the latter Government years is that the left had largely departed, leaving superloyalists in control. The same thing seems to be happening with the LibDems - the zealots are still there, distributing every-more thousands of Focuses by hand, and everyone else is quietly calling it a day. The zealots deserve credit for it - some of them are really amazing. But they should be aware that the people around them are quietly slipping away.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited July 2013
    I remember the shock and disbelief when the Lib Dems failed to hold Eastleigh.......

    Meanwhile, today's YouGov:

    Among VI:

    Led by people of real ability:
    Con: 60
    Lab: 42
    Lib D: 28

    Leaders prepared to take tough & unpopular decisions:
    Con: 83
    Lab: 31
    Lib D: 23
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    I think they'll pick up a bit as the election approaches and they pick up some of the "Cameron and Miliband are both shit" vote.

    Good thing Clegg soars above both with his enviable popularity ratings then isn't it?

    It's about the raw numbers. The lib dem base has been getting hammered since 2010 and there's absolutely no sign of it stopping now. One electoral cycle after 2015 may not be enough to recover since trust and tactical voting messages like "vote lib dem to keep the tories out" have been shattered and will likely take just a bit more than a new leader to restore.

    Everyone knows why the lib dems are in the position they are. They have very, very few options to possibly mitigate what awaits them in 2015. You can be certain that all those lib dem MPs who could lose their seats know exactly what those options are as 2015 gets closer and their jobs look ever more insecure.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,674
    edited July 2013
    Clegg made the mistake of believing that coalition with the Tories meant becoming a Tory. His erstwhile supporters have watched open mouthed as he embraced Torydom as if to the manner born.

    Voters accepted the electoral arithmetic and genuinely wished him and the project well but he blew it big time.

    Short of draping himself over Thatcher's coffin while singing Land of Hope and Glory it's difficult to think what more he could have done to repel his 2010 voters.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Amusing squirrel thread from dyed in the wool Labour man.

    When talking about most pitiful records has he forgotten the reign of PM Brown ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    "What non-VI think of you"

    "It seems to chop and change all the time: you can never be quite sure what it stands for"

    Here, both Con & Lib Dem think this applies to Labour (54 & 51 respectively) while UKIP think this applies to Con (40). Labour think this applies equally to Con (39) and Lib Dem (40).

    There is a clear " winner" for "Its leaders are prepared to take tough and unpopular decisions" - Con

    Among VI, of Con: (of own party)
    Con: 83 (83)
    Lab: 33 (31)
    LibD: 45 (23)
    UKIP: 33 (n/a)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Amusing squirrel thread from dyed in the wool Labour man.

    When talking about most pitiful records has he forgotten the reign of PM Brown ?



    "Squirrel thread"

    Another PB Tory who hasn't worked out that the next election will be decided by what the 2010 Lib Dems do in 2015 and how it varies regionally.
    Tim - no one is happier with Labour complacency, lack of self analysis and lack of policy than me.

    Carry on squirreling.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,674
    edited July 2013
    @Carlotta

    "Led by people of real ability:
    Con: 60
    Lab: 42
    Lib D: 28"

    Yet still they trail Labour by 6 points. The Tories are probably a better example than Ratners of the difficulty of recovery for a brand that's been trashed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,111
    Roger said:

    Clegg made the mistake of believing that coalition with the Tories meant becoming a Tory. His erstwhile supporters have watched open mouthed as he embraced Torydom as if to the manner born.

    Voters accepted the electoral arithmetic and genuinely wished him and the project well but he blew it big time.

    Short of draping himself over Thatcher's coffin while singing Land of Hope and Glory it's difficult to think what more he could have done to repel his 2010 voters.

    Only if 'being a Tory' meant facing up to hard decisions.

    The idea that the Lib Dems have been some form of Tory-lite whilst in government is laughable.

    The problem is that some Lib Dem supporters think that the Lib Dems should have all the power in government, despite being very much a junior partner. This shows a certain immaturity on the part of the supporters, who wanted Lib Dems to be in power (initially via coalition, thus the support for AV) for so long and yet throw a strop when they get that power with the 'wrong' party.

    You have to make difficult decisions in government; the Lib Dem supporters are not used to that concept. It is about time some of them did. They have got their wish and don't like it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @Roger - the internals do not support the Tories as a "brand that has been trashed" - the Lib Dems have the most to worry about - and Labour should be concerned too about its "ability" and "decisive" numbers - on the latter they rate Con ahead of their own party.....

    We have just under two years to go to the GE - the first half of which Labour will be indulging itself in an internal fight - and all over a "non-story" too!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sadly Henry's piece is nothing more than an anti yellow peril partisan rant. We expect better of PB.

    How about a thread on Philip of Spain and his influence on the Weybridge South by-election ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    JackW said:

    Sadly Henry's piece is nothing more than an anti yellow peril partisan rant. We expect better of PB.

    How about a thread on Philip of Spain and his influence on the Weybridge South by-election ?

    Henry should stick to his "Ed is brilliant" threads - I expect we've got one on "Tories eating babies" first though..
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Indie on the "non-story"

    "The ruling by Scottish Police was a setback to Ed Miliband, who referred the controversy over selecting Labour’s parliamentary candidate to them earlier this month. "

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-will-discipline-two-falkirk-union-voteriggers-despite-lack-of-evidence-as-unite-calls-for-reinstatement-8732601.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Golly Henry - did you take one of your eyes out when penning this?

    You missed out the 23m who now pay no or less tax and the pupil premium for starters.

    This piece reads like a laundry list of LD failures you used on the doorstep last week. Your insights into Labour and the unions right now would be a great deal more valuable than LD bashing - and God knows I'm not their biggest fan at times.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Times has a new angle on the "non-story"

    "Ed Miliband and his biggest trade union backer are being investigated by Britain’s privacy watchdog over claims of malpractice in a key Westminster selection.
    The office of the Information Commissioner announced that it was looking into the scandal-hit Labour contest in the safe seat of Falkirk."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3825708.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2013_07_25
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    If you take Henry's last paragraph and replace the word Lib Dem with Labour and Nick Clegg with Gordon Brown it makes much more sense .
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    The Times has a new angle on the "non-story"

    "Ed Miliband and his biggest trade union backer are being investigated by Britain’s privacy watchdog over claims of malpractice in a key Westminster selection.
    The office of the Information Commissioner announced that it was looking into the scandal-hit Labour contest in the safe seat of Falkirk."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3825708.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2013_07_25

    The Info Commissioner is a pretty robust chappy who takes no nonsense - I look forward to seeing what happens.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,344
    edited July 2013
    Great to have some focus on the Lib Dems. They have escaped a lot of scrutiny recently. Agree that the LDs have a lot of questions to answer and are in the worst state of all the parties.

    They do have achievements though, but they are totally obscured by their political mistakes. They can't make progress with Clegg. Until they bite the bullet, they are a zombie party.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dyed in the wool Labour supporter does not support LibDems in coalition shock!

    Sure the LibDems have lost some left leaning supporters to Labour. This indeed accounts for nearly all the rise in the Labour polling. There are it seems very few switchers from elsewhere despite one of the most difficult periods in modern economic history.

    I expect to see a Miliband govt in 2015, and an equally abrupt departure of these supporters as they see the Labour govt continue much the same policies.

    As spending on debt interest rises, doubling over the lifetime of the parliament, it will put a £35 billion pound permanent squeeze on spending. Money spent on debt intrrest is money that cannot be spent on the NHS or anything else.

    The self restruction of the Labour party when they reach power and see how bare the cupboard is will make the LibDems loss of activists seem quite mild.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    If you take Henry's last paragraph and replace the word Lib Dem with Labour and Nick Clegg with Gordon Brown it makes much more sense .

    Indeed - displacement theory.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Credit to the Lib Dems, at least they don't preach high spend, zero tax (for ourselves) like the Labour Party...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Tuition fees may be a larger problem than is made out. First, a lot of 2015 voters will be looking at their graduate debts, whether or not they have jobs. Second, in his apology for breaking a clear manifesto pledge, Nick Clegg, in almost as many words, said you can never believe LibDem campaign promises as they can always be negotiated away in coalitions. I dare say Conservative and Labour campaign managers will have that speech filed away for 2015.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Excellent to note the PB member for Hersham did its job .... although I understand there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the maidens of Weybridge South that the by-election is over !!
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    So people not paying income tax is no big deal. Guess that must apply to Corporation Tax too...

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Rexel56 said:

    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    So people not paying income tax is no big deal. Guess that must apply to Corporation Tax too...

    Its flip flop week - tax, gdp etc...
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Reading that list Henry, it seems as though you had a "10 things I hate most about the Government" list and just branded it all LibDem failure. Would you be so quick to list the failings of the most inept and incompetent government the country has seen since Anthony Eden, that of James Gordon "no more boom and bust" Brown which you supported?

    Perhaps the biggest problem for the LibDems as a national party is simply that for a great many voters, they were always the easy option. Few people understood what they stood for. Even fewer cared. They were simply the party which wasn't Tory in the shires or Labour in the cities. People could vote for them knowing it wouldn't mean much (unless of course they were Liberal diehards who had always supported the party).

    In Government the party has had to "grow up" and take the difficult decisions. As a Tory, I have to say I have admired the way the LibDems in government have got on with doing the right, but for them, correct thing. Obviously in Tory-LibDem battlegrounds I hope in 2015 that most of the yellow seats will return to the blue camp where they tended to reside safely until 1987. There are however a number of LibDem ministers I would really like to see survive at the GE because they have impressed me in government. If a way could be found for them to stand as Tory Coalition candidates then that would be brilliant. Sadly I cant see it happening.

    I don't know where the LibDems will sit in the polls in early 2015. I suspect they will stage some level of recovery but not enough to hold on to many of their seats. If it means the Tories regain formerly safe seats, especially in outer London, the south-west of England and rural Scotland I will be delighted. If it means that the LibDems lose enough votes to Labour to cost the Tories marginal seats in the Midlands and North of England, I will be disappointed. I do wonder if beyond the activist range, disenchanted 2010 LibDem voters will either vote Green or simply not bother to vote, the way many 1992 Tories stayed at home in 1997.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Some departments at Wales' biggest hospital are "dangerous" with patients "dying regularly" while waiting for heart operations, surgeons claim.

    The findings are made in a report on Cardiff's University Hospital of Wales by the Royal College of Surgeons (RCS).

    Hospital chiefs say they accept pressures earlier in the year were "unacceptable" and are being addressed.

    An action plan has been agreed with the health board and will be reviewed by surgeons in the autumn.

    The report by the RCS followed a visit to surgical departments by its Public Affairs Board for Wales (PAB) in April this year.

    The report said there was "universal consensus" amongst the clinicians that services at the hospital were "dangerous" and of "poor quality".

    It said "urgent attention" by Cardiff and Vale University Health Board (CVUHB) was needed to address the issues.

    The visit highlighted several examples of what the report called "serious service problems" which represented a "severe risk to patients".

    Surgeons said concerns included:

    Cardiac patients "regularly dying on waiting lists" with "other patients' hearts ... deteriorating while waiting" making subsequent treatment more difficult
    Children regularly being fitted with hearing aids because of a lack of surgical time and resources to insert grommets to treat ear infections
    Patients "suffering complications" because of delays in treating kidney stones
    A&E and intensive care units being "frequently grid-locked" with patients "often stacked up in corridors and ambulances"

    The single most common complaint from the hospital's surgeons was the inability to admit patients for scheduled, or elective, surgery.

    They reported that more than 2,000 operations were either not scheduled due to a lack of beds or cancelled in the first three months of this year.

    "I think our colleagues were telling us that they believed there was significant risk as a consequence of their inability to get patients in to have their operations in a timely way," said Colin Ferguson, director of Public Affairs for the RCS in Wales.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23454922
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Can anyone point me to a league table of local by-elections and their results since May?

    We have a weekly round-up of results but its hard to get a feel of the overall picture
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Plato said:

    Golly Henry - did you take one of your eyes out when penning this?

    Crikey! As a self-proclaimed "serial labour voter" (and not a hilariously inept tory spinner) you must have been appalled. ;^ )

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited July 2013

    The idea that the Lib Dems have been some form of Tory-lite whilst in government is laughable.

    As laughable as the notion that the lib dem base is getting smashed because they're not Tory enough? That would certainly explain their remarkable performances in scotland of late.

  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    income inequality has reduced?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23253092

    which labour didn't manage in all their time in power- it might be a good argument for winning back left leaning 2010 lib dems (assuming they're win-backable)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,674
    edited July 2013
    @MarkSenior

    "If you take Henry's last paragraph and replace the word Lib Dem with Labour and Nick Clegg with Gordon Brown it makes much more sense ."

    Surely you can't be happy with the way things are going for the Lib Dems? It's quite obvious that the only voters who'd give them the time of day are Tories and they've already got a party so what's the point of them and don't you agree with Henry that Clegg has been completely inept?

    Their USP which was priceless was that they weren't Tories and now they are.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    tim said:

    Rexel56 said:

    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    So people not paying income tax is no big deal. Guess that must apply to Corporation Tax too...


    The income tax changes have been done by introducing a concertinaed tax system, so at £10k you jump to 20%, while the 40% limit has been brought down so one in six pay it as opposed to the one in 20 when it was introduced.
    Then of course theres a 50-70% band inserted at £50-60k if you have children.

    Far better to have 10p, 20p, 30p 40p 50p tax bands without the big incentive killing leaps.
    Thought one Gordon Brown destroyed the 10p band! Not sure if the HMRC IT system could cope with such complexity.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The US Inland revenue manages multiple small bands of income tax. It is refreshing for tim to realise that high taxes are a disincentive to earning more.
    Financier said:

    tim said:

    Rexel56 said:

    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    So people not paying income tax is no big deal. Guess that must apply to Corporation Tax too...


    The income tax changes have been done by introducing a concertinaed tax system, so at £10k you jump to 20%, while the 40% limit has been brought down so one in six pay it as opposed to the one in 20 when it was introduced.
    Then of course theres a 50-70% band inserted at £50-60k if you have children.

    Far better to have 10p, 20p, 30p 40p 50p tax bands without the big incentive killing leaps.
    Thought one Gordon Brown destroyed the 10p band! Not sure if the HMRC IT system could cope with such complexity.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited July 2013
    YouGov/Sun 25th July : Con 32%, Lab 38%, LD 11%, UKIP 11%; APP -27

    When Clegg said he and the lib dems were "back in the saddle", after yet another dire set of locals in May, was it some kind of euphemism?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    O/T Another whopping 6 point lead for Labour, they are just rocketing away, just wait until they produce some Policies....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Predatory tax dodgers:

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/36244/

    Labour paid no corporation tax in 2012
    Labour paid no corporation tax at all last year despite receiving £33m in income, accounts released yesterday reveal.

    The party reduced its potential tax liability of £561,000 by offsetting expenses and tax losses carried over from 2011, according to the Times.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    What are the LibDems for is a very reasonable question and one that they will have to answer shortly.

    I would summarise it as: sound finances for the country, a tax and benefits structure that reduces inequalities and encourages the working poor, environmental awareness and a positive attitude to our neighbours in europe. This is all clear from their time in govt, which a significant part of the parliamentary party has enjoyed after a ninety year gap. It is far more clear and coherent than Milibands blank sheet of paper and Ed Balls borrow and spend policies.

    If there is another hung parliament with the LDs in the Kingmaker role then I would want to see some of these ministers carry on under Milliband, particularly Danny Alexander with the finances.

    Roger said:

    @MarkSenior

    "If you take Henry's last paragraph and replace the word Lib Dem with Labour and Nick Clegg with Gordon Brown it makes much more sense ."

    Surely you can't be happy with the way things are going for the Lib Dems? It's quite obvious that the only voters who'd give them the time of day are Tories and they've already got a party so what's the point of them and don't you agree with Henry that Clegg has been completely inept?

    Their USP which was priceless was that they weren't Tories and now they are.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013



    In Government the party has had to "grow up" and take the difficult decisions. As a Tory, I have to say I have admired the way the LibDems in government have got on with doing the right, but for them, correct thing. Obviously in Tory-LibDem battlegrounds I hope in 2015 that most of the yellow seats will return to the blue camp where they tended to reside safely until 1987. There are however a number of LibDem ministers I would really like to see survive at the GE because they have impressed me in government. If a way could be found for them to stand as Tory Coalition candidates then that would be brilliant. Sadly I cant see it happening.

    I don't know where the LibDems will sit in the polls in early 2015. I suspect they will stage some level of recovery but not enough to hold on to many of their seats. If it means the Tories regain formerly safe seats, especially in outer London, the south-west of England and rural Scotland I will be delighted. If it means that the LibDems lose enough votes to Labour to cost the Tories marginal seats in the Midlands and North of England, I will be disappointed. I do wonder if beyond the activist range, disenchanted 2010 LibDem voters will either vote Green or simply not bother to vote, the way many 1992 Tories stayed at home in 1997.

    A coupon election in 2015 would be interesting although Peter Bone would probably spontaneously combust.

    A point of note of the 1918 coupon election was that both Liberal parties racked up seats with a small % of the vote. 707 HoC seats including all Ireland :

    Party .. Stood .. Seats .. % Vote

    Coalition Conservative .. 362 .. 332 .. 47%
    Coalition Liberals .. 145 .. 127 .. 8.1%
    Coalition Labour .. 5 .. 4 .. 0.1%
    Liberal .. 276 .. 36 .. 5.1%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1918
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,318
    edited July 2013
    My prediction is that at the 2015 GE, the LDs will win more seats than they did in 1992 while the Cons will have fewer than they did in 1992. Some people just have too short-term a perspective.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Predatory tax dodgers:

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/36244/

    Labour paid no corporation tax in 2012
    Labour paid no corporation tax at all last year despite receiving £33m in income, accounts released yesterday reveal.

    The party reduced its potential tax liability of £561,000 by offsetting expenses and tax losses carried over from 2011, according to the Times.

    I wish there was a PMQs next week ;^ ) Still, I'm sure this little story will keep popping up whenever Labour try it on.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2013
    tim said:


    The mistake of this govts reforms (following on from Browns idiotic abolishing of the 10p rate) is that you jump from 0 to 20% at 10k

    They're marginal tax rates. I fail to see the particular advantage of shifting the 20% marginal tax rate slightly further up the earnings distribution.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I too would favour more taxes on property and less on income. It would encourage housing market mobility and encourage those under occupying properties to move to smaller ones. This would free up larger properties for growing families. From each according to their means, to each according to their needs.

    I may call it the Bedroom tax.
    tim said:

    The US Inland revenue manages multiple small bands of income tax. It is refreshing for tim to realise that high taxes are a disincentive to earning more.

    Financier said:

    tim said:

    Rexel56 said:

    tim said:

    The people paying no or less income tax are paying more overall in tax, just different taxes.
    What's the big deal about moving it from one to another?

    So people not paying income tax is no big deal. Guess that must apply to Corporation Tax too...


    The income tax changes have been done by introducing a concertinaed tax system, so at £10k you jump to 20%, while the 40% limit has been brought down so one in six pay it as opposed to the one in 20 when it was introduced.
    Then of course theres a 50-70% band inserted at £50-60k if you have children.

    Far better to have 10p, 20p, 30p 40p 50p tax bands without the big incentive killing leaps.
    Thought one Gordon Brown destroyed the 10p band! Not sure if the HMRC IT system could cope with such complexity.


    I'd move to more property tax and less on income, with the jumps in income tax being limited to 10%.
    The mistake of this govts reforms (following on from Browns idiotic abolishing of the 10p rate) is that you jump from 0 to 20% at 10k, and can then go from 20% to 60% by earning an extra £10 if you move from £40,500 to £50,500 and have kids.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Given ABCWelby is in the news - this was a little amusing. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3825591.ece

    How should one first greet the Archbishop of Canterbury? Pope Francis did it rather bluntly when Justin Welby came to Rome last month, telling him: “I’m senior to you.” The AB of C, having expected a benediction rather than a boast, could only stammer: “Yes, I know, Your Holiness.” But it was a joke. “Ha!” replied the Pope, who had been elected in the same week. “By two days!” I hope he clapped his hands and said “boom-tish”.

    People say “Ha!” a lot to Welby, it turns out. He tells Total Politics that Lambeth Palace has “an element of Hogwarts about it” and not just because Rowan Williams resembled Dumbledore. “Every corridor is lined with portraits of dead archbishops,” Welby says. “You hear them muttering: ‘Ha! Don’t think much of this one’.”
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Henry, thank you.

    You have written from a producer's viewpoint and not the consumer's viewpoint and that is usually what the LDs and Labour do. It is no good giving the marketplace nails if what they want is screws!

    Most private sector businesses would be bankrupt very quickly if they took that approach, but we know from events in the public sector, e.g in the fields of education and health, the producer approach has gained dominance (to the degradation of those services).

    The LDs were naive in not expecting the protest vote to leave them when they joined the coalition - so at the moment that is parked with Labour, Greens and UKIP.

    However, LDs have failed to take the opportunity to show that they are a party fit for government as they prioritised the LD's political reforms instead of focusing on what the public wanted: improved economy, jobs, education, good health service and economic energy. The one good policy that has been carried through is raising the personal tax allowance to £10k.

    However, they have become publicly sulky and petulant after the electorate rejected AV and have lost direction. They persist in supporting the EU (which to the public is the same as the ECHR) and keeping 'green' energy taxes just to meet a EU target- not very clever when world energy prices have increased so much.

    Now they want to resist fracking when the world sees US energy costs dropping due to fracking. The LDs have become the NIMBY party as they do not present coherent arguments to the electorate. I doubt whether their autumn conference will improve matters.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2013
    A comment piece written by a Labourite who can't forgive the Lib Dems for forming a mature and harmonious coalition with a right of centre party.

    I happen to think this government will be seen as a success and will probably be viewed by history as quite remarkable. A coalition between a centre right and centre left party during times of extreme economic difficulty, and one which has seen less bitterness and infighting at the top than we saw within the Labour party when it governed on its own.

    It would be interesting to assess (I'm sure someone more politically astute than me can do it) what this government has achieved in one term in comparison to what the Blair government achived during it's first term (1997-2001). It's possible the Lib Dems have put together more policies that have helped the working poor than that government did.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Does anyone clever have a link on PB threads to Budget day 2007 the day Brown abolished the 10p tax rate ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013
    Not that one would want to sow ferment in HM's Loyal Opposition, deary me no .... but in a idle moment or two one might cogitate on who potential Coalition Labour MP's might be :

    I'll throw in Frank Field ...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A peculiar intv on R4 with Welby

    Jason Groves @JasonGroves1
    Archbishop Justin Welby: 'Just for the record, I am not in favour of sin.' Glad we cleared that up
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2013
    tim said:


    You wouldn't have a 20% marginal rate anywhere in the system with 10% bands.

    Yes you would, tim, that's what a marginal tax rate is.

    Your system doesnt only have marginal rates of 10%, it has marginal rates of 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% and 50%.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Roger said:

    @MarkSenior

    "If you take Henry's last paragraph and replace the word Lib Dem with Labour and Nick Clegg with Gordon Brown it makes much more sense ."

    Surely you can't be happy with the way things are going for the Lib Dems? It's quite obvious that the only voters who'd give them the time of day are Tories and they've already got a party so what's the point of them and don't you agree with Henry that Clegg has been completely inept?

    Their USP which was priceless was that they weren't Tories and now they are.

    Of course I am not 100% happy with the way things are going for the Lib Dems , I want to see them win every single election but I am a realist .
    The USP that we are not Tories still remains , read any thread on Conservativehome or most posts from pbtories and you will see that your view is from a biased perspective .

  • IIRC They were all wiped when moving to Vanilla.

    Does anyone clever have a link on PB threads to Budget day 2007 the day Brown abolished the 10p tax rate ?

  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    tim said:



    Reduced growth generally reduces income inequality, it happened in the early 90's too

    we have to throw away growth as a measure of success, eventually anyway..

    not sure whether the bbc thing i linked is talking about gini or something else, and I don't have time to check- why was gini coefficient so up and down under blair?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    IIRC They were all wiped when moving to Vanilla.

    Does anyone clever have a link on PB threads to Budget day 2007 the day Brown abolished the 10p tax rate ?

    @Andy_JS has found some 2007 comments/threads using Wayback Machine.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    IIRC They were all wiped when moving to Vanilla.

    Does anyone clever have a link on PB threads to Budget day 2007 the day Brown abolished the 10p tax rate ?

    @Andy_JS has found some 2007 comments/threads using Wayback Machine.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Financier said:


    Now they want to resist fracking when the world sees US energy costs dropping due to fracking. The LDs have become the NIMBY party as they do not present coherent arguments to the electorate. I doubt whether their autumn conference will improve matters.

    unless its going to reduce greenhouse emissions, then resisting fracking would be coherent wouldn't it?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2013
    tim said:


    Bingo, sorted.

    What's sorted? Your understanding of "marginal tax rate"? As I said I fail to see the particular advantage of lots of different marginal tax rates with random redistributive effects (what do people earning 7k and 40k and 160k all have in common that you would seek to make them worse off?).

  • Good stuff, I used to enjoy dipping back into threads of yesteryear and reading with the benefit of hindsight.
    Plato said:

    IIRC They were all wiped when moving to Vanilla.

    Does anyone clever have a link on PB threads to Budget day 2007 the day Brown abolished the 10p tax rate ?

    @Andy_JS has found some 2007 comments/threads using Wayback Machine.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23454922

    NHS being run brilliantly in Wales!

    To be fair - and I'm not making a political point here - Wales needs another mega-hospital and we haven't got the money for it. There are going to be some tragic stories in the coming years. It's a mess.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    I thought we were talking about income tax rates here

    We were. Do you not accept that your proposal for lots of income tax bands would have random redistributive effects all over the earnings distribution?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Fenster said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23454922

    NHS being run brilliantly in Wales!

    To be fair - and I'm not making a political point here - Wales needs another mega-hospital and we haven't got the money for it. There are going to be some tragic stories in the coming years. It's a mess.

    What impact do you think the NHS record will have on Labour in Wales? I keep tripping across stories of terrible problems with A&E, 999, measles, hospitals on red alert etc, mismanagement - for a pretty small place - it seems quite disproportionate.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:


    Now they want to resist fracking when the world sees US energy costs dropping due to fracking. The LDs have become the NIMBY party as they do not present coherent arguments to the electorate. I doubt whether their autumn conference will improve matters.

    unless its going to reduce greenhouse emissions, then resisting fracking would be coherent wouldn't it?
    Currently we import (by sea) a lot of LNG (methane) from Qatar and so our energy supply is vulnerable to natural and political events.

    If we can get some of it from under our feet then we are reducing in the short term our energy supply vulnerability and improving our balance of payments. The world is unlikely to reduce emissions of CO2 in the near future as the BRIC countries continue their growth.

    We have to put as much effort into increasing energy use efficiency as developing economic renewable energy. The objective has to be being self-sufficient in energy at a globally competitive cost.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,462
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty if your tyres are loose after a pit stop:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23454803

    Bit sleepy so maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall Red Bull getting that penalty for Webber's dangerous pit stop.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757
    Is this fantasy tax time with tim this morning?

    What fun..
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    Of course, but not as bad as a jump from 0 to 20

    You seem to be labouring under the misconception that your system eliminates marginal tax rates of 20% (or higher). It doesnt.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Financier said:

    Financier said:


    Now they want to resist fracking when the world sees US energy costs dropping due to fracking. The LDs have become the NIMBY party as they do not present coherent arguments to the electorate. I doubt whether their autumn conference will improve matters.

    unless its going to reduce greenhouse emissions, then resisting fracking would be coherent wouldn't it?
    Currently we import (by sea) a lot of LNG (methane) from Qatar and so our energy supply is vulnerable to natural and political events.

    If we can get some of it from under our feet then we are reducing in the short term our energy supply vulnerability and improving our balance of payments. The world is unlikely to reduce emissions of CO2 in the near future as the BRIC countries continue their growth.

    We have to put as much effort into increasing energy use efficiency as developing economic renewable energy. The objective has to be being self-sufficient in energy at a globally competitive cost.

    all sounds sensible, but i still think the lib dems could make a coherent case against it without being purely NIMBY (It might have to be rather a pro-nuclear case tho!)

    fracking is only ever going to be short term though, isn't it?

    (Is china fracking too?)
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    Fenster said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23454922

    NHS being run brilliantly in Wales!

    To be fair - and I'm not making a political point here - Wales needs another mega-hospital and we haven't got the money for it. There are going to be some tragic stories in the coming years. It's a mess.

    What impact do you think the NHS record will have on Labour in Wales? I keep tripping across stories of terrible problems with A&E, 999, measles, hospitals on red alert etc, mismanagement - for a pretty small place - it seems quite disproportionate.
    @Plato

    The NHS has another problem in parts of Wales - recruiting staff especially surgeons and consultants. My Local GP wants an extra doctor and cannot get one.

    It is the same reason I get from UK recruitment consultants - nobody wants to come to work in Wales - it has gained a bad reputation internationally that is getting worse.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    The related question coming out of Henry's post is what achievements the LibDems will run on in 2015. I would suggest:
    - Taking people out of tax helping the poor.
    - Expansion of renewable energy - I assume there's been some given the technological improvements in renewables.
    - Keeping a grip on spending and getting the economy on track without letting the Tories bite too many tramps.

    They should also come up with a new policy to differentiate themselves, like legalizing weed.

    I think this will be more than enough for a campaign.

    They should campaign to legalise ecstasy. The fact young people are dying (10 this past fortnight) from contaminated pills which evil f*ckers put the lethal PMA in, is disgusting. The government should do something for the 2-million or so people who taken ecstasy. To make it safe.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    The new Archbishop is going some way to restoring the reputational damage Cameron and Letwin have done to Eton

    Well I suppose Eton has taken a hit from some in the Cheshire farming community but I'll offer up the view it'll survive the blow.

  • Energy independence for the UK could be a massive boon to our economy. In the short to medium term shale can help significantly.

    But in the longer term it's much less clear. Conventional oil will eventually become cost uncompetitive. Gas and shale oils may last alot longer - but not forever. We'll hit peak coal at some point too (earlier in China than elsewhere).

    The end state (I'm talking a century or more) for mankind will be nuclear. Possibly Thorium based fission. Possibly deuterium based fusion. Once either of these is cracked at a commercial scale then we're good to go for centuries. Renewables will make some contribution but will never predominate as they are just too diffuse - you'd have to cover the planet in windfarms and solar panels.

    Governments with an eye to future stability and independence should commit proper R&D funding to new nuclear.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty if your tyres are loose after a pit stop:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23454803

    Bit sleepy so maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall Red Bull getting that penalty for Webber's dangerous pit stop.

    Morris_Dancer.

    Though it is a new reg that has been introduced in light so many pit lane near misses recently. Also haven't they reduced pit lane speed?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,525
    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    Fenster said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23454922

    NHS being run brilliantly in Wales!

    To be fair - and I'm not making a political point here - Wales needs another mega-hospital and we haven't got the money for it. There are going to be some tragic stories in the coming years. It's a mess.

    What impact do you think the NHS record will have on Labour in Wales? I keep tripping across stories of terrible problems with A&E, 999, measles, hospitals on red alert etc, mismanagement - for a pretty small place - it seems quite disproportionate.
    @Plato

    The NHS has another problem in parts of Wales - recruiting staff especially surgeons and consultants. My Local GP wants an extra doctor and cannot get one.

    It is the same reason I get from UK recruitment consultants - nobody wants to come to work in Wales - it has gained a bad reputation internationally that is getting worse.
    That's very sad Financier. I don't know what can be done but it doesn't bode well for the future.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Is this fantasy tax time with tim this morning?

    What fun..

    "How much tax has the unborn son of toff X saved....."



  • A bad reputation for what?
  • Anti-Welsh xenophobia?
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    tim said:

    Neil said:

    tim said:


    The mistake of this govts reforms (following on from Browns idiotic abolishing of the 10p rate) is that you jump from 0 to 20% at 10k

    They're marginal tax rates. I fail to see the particular advantage of shifting the 20% marginal tax rate slightly further up the earnings distribution.
    You wouldn't have a 20% marginal rate anywhere in the system with 10% bands.
    We've got a 20% jump at £10k and a 32% jump between £40,500 and £50,500 for those with children.
    Not sensible.

    Gosh another tim howler. Used to be very rare, but not any more.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    A few anecdotes on LBC re the Go Home billboards - they're getting the thumbs up and from lapsed Tories/Kippers.

    If you haven't seen it - there's a good article from John McTernan re Lynton Crosby - John was right in the thick of it in Australia with Gillard. And was Tony's political secretary...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10202559/Lynton-Crosby-is-a-master-strategist-with-the-common-touch.html

    " So, Labour’s attacks on Crosby are not about his ethics, his politics or his client list. They are about his effectiveness. Consider the thread that connects the revival in Tory fortunes. It’s not better policy, or a stronger economy. It’s sharper messaging, a strong narrative and message discipline. Why is Labour on the back foot on welfare? Not because Universal Credit is a masterful reform, or because the benefits cap is a success. No, it’s because when Mick Philpott killed six of his 17 children in a house fire, George Osborne condemned a lifestyle that had been sustained by welfare. Labour was exasperated at the Tories exploiting a tragedy, but the Chancellor knew he was channelling the outrage of mainstream Middle England. Classic Crosby, a values wedge: Labour defending the feckless, the Government standing for decency.

    This is Crosby’s genius. Picking a tender spot that forces Labour to defend the indefensible because embracing the middle ground would be too painful. That’s the point of the benefits cap. And the trashing of the NHS brand, too. The pre-positioning of the Keogh report on hospital deaths bore all the hallmarks of Crosby. A potentially devastating attack on the current management of the NHS was pivoted into an assault on Labour’s stewardship. In politics, great strategists don’t go round a problem, they go through it. The Government forced Labour to defend failure.

    Again and again, the pattern is the same: Government weakness turned to strength; language crafted with precision; Labour forced to choose between purity and popularity..."
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,525
    On Henry's article it's safe to say I agree with him and that camoes from someone who voted Lib Dem in 2010. Clegg just seems to be creating a vacuum. It's all very well repeating this line about being a party of government not a party of protest but what do they stand for? Simply being in government isn't an answer. They can go on about the environment, Europe, civil liberties as much as they want, but it's the economy stupid. That's what people largely determine their vote on. And what's their economic philosophy? Do they even have one? If anything Clegg seems to believe in free market theory despite it having been comprehensively shown to disappoint over the last 20 years. So a broadly Keynesian party has decided to embrace neliberalism in the wake of the worst private sector collapse in a lifetime? A pretty perverse direction to go in if you ask me.

    Does Clegg understand the economy? He shows little sign of it and has had little of relevance to say. No wonder the voters have lost patience with him.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Plato said:

    A few anecdotes on LBC re the Go Home billboards - they're getting the thumbs up and from lapsed Tories/Kippers.

    If you haven't seen it - there's a good article from John McTernan re Lynton Crosby - John was right in the thick of it in Australia.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10202559/Lynton-Crosby-is-a-master-strategist-with-the-common-touch.html

    " So, Labour’s attacks on Crosby are not about his ethics, his politics or his client list. They are about his effectiveness. Consider the thread that connects the revival in Tory fortunes. It’s not better policy, or a stronger economy. It’s sharper messaging, a strong narrative and message discipline. Why is Labour on the back foot on welfare? Not because Universal Credit is a masterful reform, or because the benefits cap is a success. No, it’s because when Mick Philpott killed six of his 17 children in a house fire, George Osborne condemned a lifestyle that had been sustained by welfare. Labour was exasperated at the Tories exploiting a tragedy, but the Chancellor knew he was channelling the outrage of mainstream Middle England. Classic Crosby, a values wedge: Labour defending the feckless, the Government standing for decency.

    This is Crosby’s genius. Picking a tender spot that forces Labour to defend the indefensible because embracing the middle ground would be too painful. That’s the point of the benefits cap. And the trashing of the NHS brand, too. The pre-positioning of the Keogh report on hospital deaths bore all the hallmarks of Crosby. A potentially devastating attack on the current management of the NHS was pivoted into an assault on Labour’s stewardship. In politics, great strategists don’t go round a problem, they go through it. The Government forced Labour to defend failure.

    Again and again, the pattern is the same: Government weakness turned to strength; language crafted with precision; Labour forced to choose between purity and popularity..."

    As I said: Labour fear him.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,757
    tim said:

    @FrankBooth

    Too many District General hospitals is the root cause of this.
    You need to move specialised doctors into regional specialist hospitals, out into the community and close a lot of District Generals.

    Camerons pledge to keep them all open was the most expensive of all his stupid pledges.

    And I'm sure closing district hospitals would have hugely popular with the electorate, unions and Labour of course...

    Whether its right or wrong is another matter, but you can't blame a politican for thinking about what's popular or not.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    @FrankBooth

    "So a broadly Keynesian party has decided to embrace neliberalism in the wake of the worst private sector collapse in a lifetime?"

    Pardon? There are over 1m extra jobs in the economy in the last 3yrs. Or were you talking about the 7.3% drop in GDP we experienced thanks to Gordon?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,462
    Not sure, Mr. Financier, about pit speed.

    P1 underway.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    O/T Another whopping 6 point lead for Labour, they are just rocketing away, just wait until they produce some Policies....

    It wasn't that long ago when a 6 per cent lead was newsworthy ...
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited July 2013
    Patrick said:

    A bad reputation for what?

    @Patrick

    The recruitment people tell me that Wales is a no-no. Reasons given are: bad education system (including poor in foreign languages), bad health system, no jobs for partners (esp outside of Cardiff), and inward thinking culture. Also it is too far from London and continental connections.

    OTOH, Bristol is fine.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,525
    Crosby may be helping the Tories to gain some votes but they're still struggling to get to an overall majority position. Surely it's a win or bust strategy? Won't this just drive the Lib Dems into the arms of Labour?

    As for his approach, it makes me despair. It's just not cricket. Of course the Australians are sometimes known to play by a different set of values.
  • Sounds like Wales is turning into Detroit. Who's in charge?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @PBModerator - are we allowed to discuss Operation Millipede?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    Ah - I see. A quick look at Wiki tells me that lefties and chippy nats hold all but 14 of the 60 seats in the Welsh assembly. Well, you get what you vote for.
This discussion has been closed.