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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In “normal times” concern about the NHS reaching a 15 year hig

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    As amusing as the SNP demanding Scotland leave one Union in order to remain in another?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985

    Mr. Pulpstar, my Betfair account's anaemic, which limits my room to manoeuvre. I may give it an infusion from the winnings, though.

    Do others not regard their bank account(s), Ladbrokes and Betfair accounts as completely interchangeable ?

    I know I do.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506



    When I was concerned with these things the working, statistically based, hypothesis was that someone over 65 had 10 times the number of prescriptions as someone in their 40’s.

    I don't know about over 65s but chatting to my local pharmacist he reckons between 50 and 60% of the population of Hurstpierpoint over the age of 55 are on regular medication. That seems an incredible proportion to me but I have to assume he knows his business. I think it raises two questions:

    1. How much over prescribing is going on? Do people really need the medicines they take or is there an element of doctors giving patients a tablet to shut them up and make them go away? From the other side of the seven different medicines I am prescribed and take daily there are two which were prescribed years ago for conditions which I haven't had for years but which the GP says I should keep taking, just in case.

    2. Payment. Until I was sixty I paid about £100 a year for a "season ticket" as my direct contribution to the cost of my medication. The moment I turned sixty I no longer had to pay anything even though my financial position remained exactly the same. That to me is crackers. Free prescriptions should be for those who cannot afford to pay not because one has reached some arbitrary age. If all the over sixties who can afford £100 per annum (i.e. most of us) were required to cough up there would be a lot more dosh sloshing around in the NHS drugs fund.
    My other half is entitled to free prescriptions because, as part of the initial assessment made of him when he had his accident, they decided that he was diabetic. This seems ludicrous to me on two fronts:

    1) we can afford to pay the prescription.
    2) given everything else he's been through, diabetes is the least of his worries.

    When I mentioned this incredulously in Northern Ireland, I was told that no one there pays for prescriptions.

    The age for free prescriptions and bus passes should be increased from aged 60 to the retirment age of 68.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    As amusing as the SNP demanding Scotland leave one Union in order to remain in another?

    Almost

    I view all petty Nationalists with equal disdain, and Scottish separation is at least as stupid as Brexit, but the Brexiteers wailing that economics will override Indy are hilarious
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    Not at all. I would hold the door open for them if only to stem the stream of bitching on this forum ;) but it would be courageous under the circumstances.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    My Dad is on statins, and that is... I think about it for my entire immediate blood family.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mr Dancer, thank you. Clear scans for 3 years now, so if it weren't hubristic I would be toying with the "cured" word.

    I hope it’s better for you Mr Z than it was for me. 5 years clear test results, discharged, then a different one appeared!
    Went to a talk on cancer from a researcher at our local Uni the other day and he remarked that 50% of us will get cancer of some sort. Somebody near me remarked that neither he nor his wife had, so I told him I must have his share!
    OMG I mam sorry. One just has to keep on keeping on and hope for the best. And I must say that, without having anything as silly as a bucket list, I have got round to going to see a few places I have always meant to but not got round to.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117

    The Scots will never have a better moment to go for independence than now, if that is what they want to do.

    The shrill cries of Leavers who are determined to insist that their peculiar view of the appropriate governance arrangements for these islands is the only conceivable view convince only themselves.

    They will lose an independence referendum on current polling, there is no point having another referendum until Brexit terms are known and independence now most likely means border controls at Berwick and customs duties
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Scottish pitch for EU membership... Quite extraordinary.

    https://twitter.com/johnferry18/status/837451033110523904
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    edited March 2017
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,058
    edited March 2017
    Embarassing for Mr Malloch

    https://www.ft.com/content/d1b0453a-fde0-11e6-8d8e-a5e3738f9ae4


    Ted Malloch, a professor at Henley Business School who wants to become Donald Trump’s ambassador to the EU, made false statements to deceive two US banks into giving him multimillion-dollar loans, according to court documents.

    Legal papers obtained by the Financial Times reveal Mr Malloch and his wife Beth filed for bankruptcy in 2013, and list debts including credit cards, cable television bills and parking fines.

    But two US banks refused to let outstanding debts of $5.9m be written off, arguing that the couple had falsely represented their assets when applying for loans.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852



    When I was concerned with these things the working, statistically based, hypothesis was that someone over 65 had 10 times the number of prescriptions as someone in their 40’s.

    I don't know about over 65s but chatting to my local pharmacist he reckons between 50 and 60% of the population of Hurstpierpoint over the age of 55 are on regular medication. That seems an incredible proportion to me but I have to assume he knows his business. I think it raises two questions:

    1. How much over prescribing is going on? Do people really need the medicines they take or is there an element of doctors giving patients a tablet to shut them up and make them go away? From the other side of the seven different medicines I am prescribed and take daily there are two which were prescribed years ago for conditions which I haven't had for years but which the GP says I should keep taking, just in case.

    2. Payment. Until I was sixty I paid about £100 a year for a "season ticket" as my direct contribution to the cost of my medication. The moment I turned sixty I no longer had to pay anything even though my financial position remained exactly the same. That to me is crackers. Free prescriptions should be for those who cannot afford to pay not because one has reached some arbitrary age. If all the over sixties who can afford £100 per annum (i.e. most of us) were required to cough up there would be a lot more dosh sloshing around in the NHS drugs fund.
    My other half is entitled to free prescriptions because, as part of the initial assessment made of him when he had his accident, they decided that he was diabetic. This seems ludicrous to me on two fronts:

    1) we can afford to pay the prescription.
    2) given everything else he's been through, diabetes is the least of his worries.

    When I mentioned this incredulously in Northern Ireland, I was told that no one there pays for prescriptions.

    The age for free prescriptions and bus passes should be increased from aged 60 to the retirment age of 68.
    Cue Labour politicians waving shrouds of people aged in their early 60s with unfortunate conditions. Of course those sort of people exist in their late 50's as well, but wont be mentioned because it spoils the argument.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    The Scots will never have a better moment to go for independence than now

    Actually they did. Two years ago.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    Juppe drifting.

    4.3 backers trying to parlay their Rubio winnings.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Actually they did. Two years ago.

    No.

    Two years ago they needed to win an economic argument and failed.

    Now they don't have to do that.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    I note Lucian's tips (THat I followed) are on UUP (4), SDLP (3) and SF (2).

    So broadly laying the DUP.
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    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Pretty much in line with what we were discussing last night
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    The Scots will never have a better moment to go for independence than now, if that is what they want to do.

    The shrill cries of Leavers who are determined to insist that their peculiar view of the appropriate governance arrangements for these islands is the only conceivable view convince only themselves.

    They will lose an independence referendum on current polling, there is no point having another referendum until Brexit terms are known and independence now most likely means border controls at Berwick and customs duties
    It's just a proxy argument for EU remainers.

    If they seriously can't discern a difference between, for example, the pension commitments involved for a few thousand eurocrats as compared to tens of millions of Britons, it isn't hard to see why they lost.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    King Cole, hope you get well soon.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I try not to faff around with such stuff often. With money tight, but that in my accounts purely winnings, I tend to just leave it in there and maybe withdraw a little if I have a good season.
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    Is it legally possible for elected representatives in France to withdraw or change their nominations before 17 March? Seems to me that if Juppé is going to stab Fillon he had better be pretty damned fast.

    The published list of nominations - which will be updated today and on the 7, 10, 14 and 18 - is here.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Pretty much in line with what we were discussing last night
    Indeed but likely more polls this afternoon
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Cyan, according to someone here (maybe Mr. Nabavi) the other day, it is, but only before the 17th. And Fillon has to choose to step down.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
    Juppe leads this new poll
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Scots will never have a better moment to go for independence than now, if that is what they want to do.

    The shrill cries of Leavers who are determined to insist that their peculiar view of the appropriate governance arrangements for these islands is the only conceivable view convince only themselves.

    They will lose an independence referendum on current polling, there is no point having another referendum until Brexit terms are known and independence now most likely means border controls at Berwick and customs duties
    It's just a proxy argument for EU remainers.

    If they seriously can't discern a difference between, for example, the pension commitments involved for a few thousand eurocrats as compared to tens of millions of Britons, it isn't hard to see why they lost.
    True
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. P, think that's a strange thing, given it'd overlap with negotiations to leave the EU (ie Scots wouldn't know what they'd be voting on, for either side of the equation).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    There seems to be a common theme amongst all the recent England, Wales and Scotland election results.
    Labour doing badly wherever you look !
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Anyway, I really must get some work done. Juppe's drifted a smidgen, but still layable at 5.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Scots wouldn't know what they'd be voting on, for either side of the equation

    Neither did Brexit
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
    Juppe leads this new poll
    Rubio lead polls like that too.

    In my opinion this could be good for Fillon - I reckon he has a good numbr of shy "Les Republicans" that will vote for him when push comes to shove. He may well win the first round.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,683
    Pulpstar said:

    There seems to be a common theme amongst all the recent England, Wales and Scotland election results.
    Labour doing badly wherever you look !

    Can't be true.

    Corbyn is about to being 100% of the uncommitted voters out to support him.

    It is 100% going to happen tomorrow.
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    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    HYUFD said:

    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Pretty much in line with what we were discussing last night
    Indeed but likely more polls this afternoon
    Opinionway daily tracker poll this morning adds more oil to burning troubled waters for Fillon. Down two points to 19, Le Pen up two points to 27

    http://presicote.factoviz.com/index/more/id/qoo_lew_1
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. P, but we didn't hold the referendum during a comparable separate negotiation.

    Also, the upheaval would be far more from splitting a country than from leaving a supra-national body with aspirations of nationhood.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    .
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
    Juppe leads this new poll
    It has a nice synchronicity doesn't it ? Juppe is Chirac's protege and has an record of convictions for corruption. We are likely to get a second round run off of Chirac's bag carrier vs JMLP's bag carrier in a re-run of "Do you want the crook or the fascist".
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    RestharrowRestharrow Posts: 233
    The reason the NHS has been "de-weaponised" is because most users are older, most patients are receiving good treatment, and most older people tend to vote Conservative anyway. The BBC's unflagging campaign to spread alarm and discontent has clearly failed. Younger people may be slightly concerned by the headlines but they rarely need NHS treatment and have other things to worry about.
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    Scott_P said:

    Actually they did. Two years ago.

    No.

    Two years ago they needed to win an economic argument and failed.

    Now they don't have to do that.
    It's just that there's a different economic argument now. But their main "logic" - that if Britain leaves the EU Scotland needs to be independent so it can join - may not convince many voters once people realise that Scotland would have to obey EU rules, allow as many Romanians in as want to come, not have a free market, customs union or freedom of movement with their only land neighbour and main export market, etc. Everyone without poo for brains in Scotland will want to keep British citizenship, so they'll be able to travel south, but things won't be so easy for those without Scottish passports who want to travel north.

    As for the old economic argument, what currency would they want to use?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
    Juppe leads this new poll
    Rubio lead polls like that too.

    In my opinion this could be good for Fillon - I reckon he has a good numbr of shy "Les Republicans" that will vote for him when push comes to shove. He may well win the first round.
    Not when he is now 7% behind Le Pen and 5% behind Macron in round 1 and if Juppe topples him it will be in the next week or two
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    Straw in the wind for a good Sinn Fein and/or SDLP vote ?

    Breaking Mid-Ulster turn-out 72.38% huge rise from 58% last time
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Pretty much in line with what we were discussing last night
    Indeed but likely more polls this afternoon
    Opinionway daily tracker poll this morning adds more oil to burning troubled waters for Fillon. Down two points to 19, Le Pen up two points to 27

    http://presicote.factoviz.com/index/more/id/qoo_lew_1
    He needs to hold steady but is drifting down it seems
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Mr. P, but we didn't hold the referendum during a comparable separate negotiation.

    Also, the upheaval would be far more from splitting a country than from leaving a supra-national body with aspirations of nationhood.

    Once again the scale of the challenge that Brexit brings is underestimated.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,117

    .

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Marco Rubio & John Kasich both did splendidly in general election polling too.
    They were stopped in the primary by Trump, Juppe would be imposed as LR candidate by bigwigs
    You do seem to love piss poor centre right candidates :)
    Juppe leads this new poll
    It has a nice synchronicity doesn't it ? Juppe is Chirac's protege and has an record of convictions for corruption. We are likely to get a second round run off of Chirac's bag carrier vs JMLP's bag carrier in a re-run of "Do you want the crook or the fascist".
    Perhaps but Macron is not out of it yet either
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyan said:

    As for the old economic argument, what currency would they want to use?

    Not relevant to the next vote
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,242
    HYUFD said:

    The Scots will never have a better moment to go for independence than now, if that is what they want to do.

    The shrill cries of Leavers who are determined to insist that their peculiar view of the appropriate governance arrangements for these islands is the only conceivable view convince only themselves.

    They will lose an independence referendum on current polling, there is no point having another referendum until Brexit terms are known and independence now most likely means border controls at Berwick and customs duties
    On 2015 polling Brexit was behind in 65 out of 74 polls, but stay complacent by all means.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Alain Juppé announces that he won't stab Fillon in the back, but were Fillon to withdraw of his own accord....

    Looks to me like Fillon is toast, TBH.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,774

    Alain Juppé announces that he won't stab Fillon in the back, but were Fillon to withdraw of his own accord....

    Looks to me like Fillon is toast, TBH.

    Why stab in the back when you can stab in the front?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, but we didn't hold the referendum during a comparable separate negotiation.

    Also, the upheaval would be far more from splitting a country than from leaving a supra-national body with aspirations of nationhood.

    Once again the scale of the challenge that Brexit brings is underestimated.
    No it's overestimated constantly. Scotland is an integrated part of a single nation and has been for 300 years, the EU is a glorified trade body with overegged aspirations.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2017
    FF43 said:

    Alain Juppé announces that he won't stab Fillon in the back, but were Fillon to withdraw of his own accord....

    Looks to me like Fillon is toast, TBH.

    Why stab in the back when you can stab in the front?
    Or, to quote from the definitive guide to politics: "While he does not seek the office, he has pledged himself to the service of his country, and .. should his colleagues persuade him that that is the best way he can serve, he might reluctantly have to accept the responsibility, whatever his personal wishes might be."
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    Good to see the return of vote early, vote often....
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    According to tallies, it's 3 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance in Strangford, and 2 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance, 1 Green in North Down. Both constituencies apparently have high turnouts.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,046
    Pulpstar said:

    Straw in the wind for a good Sinn Fein and/or SDLP vote ?

    Breaking Mid-Ulster turn-out 72.38% huge rise from 58% last time

    According to the BBC they’re all up by at least 9 points.
    SF First Minister?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,774
    edited March 2017
    Theresa May in Scotland:

    I can't help but feel that the SNP has a tunnel vision about independence. Actually I think what people want is for the SNP government to get on with dealing with the issues they want to see addressed on a day-to-day basis. Issues like the state of the economy, reforming schools - education used to be such a great flagship for Scotland, but sadly in recent years we have seen that deteriorating. ...

    For too long a feeble and incompetent Scottish Labour opposition did nothing to scrutinise the SNP for their failures. An SNP government interested only in stoking-up endless constitutional grievance and furthering their obsession with independence, at the expense of Scottish public services like the NHS and education, was given a free pass by Labour.


    You could substitute Conservatives for SNP and Brexit for Independence and that speech would still mostly make sense. Which is why I think Mrs May won't have a lot of credibility amongst Scots who support both unions. Those that support independence and those that support both Brexit and the United Kingdom will vote as they were always going to. There are many more people in the first category.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985

    Pulpstar said:

    Straw in the wind for a good Sinn Fein and/or SDLP vote ?

    Breaking Mid-Ulster turn-out 72.38% huge rise from 58% last time

    According to the BBC they’re all up by at least 9 points.
    SF First Minister?
    No. The DUP will win, but I think they might lose a few seats.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    Sean_F said:

    According to tallies, it's 3 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance in Strangford, and 2 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance, 1 Green in North Down. Both constituencies apparently have high turnouts.

    Lucid Talk expect the DUP to win about 26%, so they should still be the largest party, unless support for SDLP collapses to Sinn Fein.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    FF43 said:

    You could substitute Conservatives for SNP and Brexit for Independence and that speech would still mostly make sense.

    Duh...
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Sean_F said:

    According to tallies, it's 3 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance in Strangford, and 2 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance, 1 Green in North Down. Both constituencies apparently have high turnouts.

    What is your source? I'd like to follow too.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited March 2017

    FF43 said:

    Alain Juppé announces that he won't stab Fillon in the back, but were Fillon to withdraw of his own accord....

    Looks to me like Fillon is toast, TBH.

    Why stab in the back when you can stab in the front?
    Or, to quote from the definitive guide to politics: "While he does not seek the office, he has pledged himself to the service of his country, and .. should his colleagues persuade him that that is the best way he can serve, he might reluctantly have to accept the responsibility, whatever his personal wishes might be."
    <<La balle doit-elle sortir de la mêlée? .... >> ?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913

    Pulpstar said:

    Straw in the wind for a good Sinn Fein and/or SDLP vote ?

    Breaking Mid-Ulster turn-out 72.38% huge rise from 58% last time

    According to the BBC they’re all up by at least 9 points.
    SF First Minister?
    That kind of turnout is not unusual in the West, and is probably neutral in its impact.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,955
    RoyalBlue said:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2992027/peer-warns-up-to-30-tory-mps-could-join-a-commons-rebellion-and-force-theresa-may-to-guarantee-rights-of-eu-citizens-post-brexit-after-lords-victory-last-night/amp/

    Why would
    i) a cross-bench peer have any idea how many Tory MPs are likely to revolt
    ii) any Tory MP who has previously voted against unilateral guarantees for EU migrants switch their vote?

    Sounds like Soubry is coming out with fantasy numbers to try to get enough backbenchers on her side.

    I) They could have been told by MPs. Those MPs might well be overselling it.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,955
    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    There are risks to breaking up any union. But not all unions are of equal value.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2992027/peer-warns-up-to-30-tory-mps-could-join-a-commons-rebellion-and-force-theresa-may-to-guarantee-rights-of-eu-citizens-post-brexit-after-lords-victory-last-night/amp/

    Why would
    i) a cross-bench peer have any idea how many Tory MPs are likely to revolt
    ii) any Tory MP who has previously voted against unilateral guarantees for EU migrants switch their vote?

    Sounds like Soubry is coming out with fantasy numbers to try to get enough backbenchers on her side.

    I) They could have been told by MPs. Those MPs might well be overselling it.
    Some will be pawns of the whips trying to get a handle on the number of rebels, "I am thinking about voting against the bill, what do you think ?"
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    According to tallies, it's 3 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance in Strangford, and 2 DUP, 1 UUP, 1 Alliance, 1 Green in North Down. Both constituencies apparently have high turnouts.

    What is your source? I'd like to follow too.
    Nicholas Whyte on twitter. He is very reliable.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited March 2017
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    There are risks to breaking up any union. But not all unions are of equal value.

    With the right deal, the EU union would have carried on with the UK in it.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,985
    No Northern Ireland thread :( ?

    Afraid I don't have enough local knowledge to put one together.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    There are risks to breaking up any union. But not all unions are of equal value.
    Exactly the UK is a country not a mere union.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,774
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Juppe becomes new favourite if he runs but tight between top 3
    Juppé would be the same old, same old. The other two are fresh faces. Personally I vastly prefer Macron to Le Pen, of course
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,955
    Looking very good for Macron, right?
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Slice it however you want. You can't simultaneously argue the UK can flourish outside of the EU, but Scotland can't flourish outside the UK.

    It's far easier to achieve a painless divorce from someone who you have no children with whilst renting a flat after one year of marriage, than it is to divorce someone after thirty years who you have a family and property with.

    The UK union is much more heavily embedded that the european one.
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Slice it however you want. You can't simultaneously argue the UK can flourish outside of the EU, but Scotland can't flourish outside the UK.

    It's far easier to achieve a painless divorce from someone who you have no children with whilst renting a flat after one year of marriage, than it is to divorce someone after thirty years who you have a family and property with.

    The UK union is much more heavily embedded that the european one.
    So what? If it isnt fit for purpose then logievity alone isnt a reason to save it.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Theresa May has signalled a far tougher line on Scottish demands for greater devolution after Brexit, laying down a clear challenge to Nicola Sturgeon to call another independence vote.

    The prime minister told the Scottish Conservative party she would fight against any further decentralisation of power which meant the UK became “a looser and weaker union”. “We cannot allow our United Kingdom to drift apart,” she said.

    In a marked escalation of her attacks on the first minister’s demand for far greater autonomy for the Scottish parliament after Brexit, May warned there would be a strict limit to any extra powers and spending.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/03/theresa-may-lays-down-independence-vote-challenge-to-sturgeon?CMP=share_btn_tw
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,046
    edited March 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Straw in the wind for a good Sinn Fein and/or SDLP vote ?

    Breaking Mid-Ulster turn-out 72.38% huge rise from 58% last time

    According to the BBC they’re all up by at least 9 points.
    SF First Minister?
    That kind of turnout is not unusual in the West, and is probably neutral in its impact.
    True. And if the report from Strangford is right the projection of 'as you were' seems about right.

    One feature not factored in is the effect of any migrant vote. Do they vote in NI Assembly elections?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,955

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    I am much amused by the parade of Brexiteers lining up to declaim the perils of breaking up unions...

    There are risks to breaking up any union. But not all unions are of equal value.

    With the right deal, the EU/UK union would have carried on.

    Yes it could have. That would have been my preference, frankly, but I lost faith that a suitable deal could be made - there was no wish for it from the EU, and it is an irony that it is possible they might become more like one I could have accepted, only because of the shock of us leaving (but whether they can change enough is still up in the air, as is if they want to for th benefit of their remaining members)
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    1 each for the DUP, UUP, and Alliance in East Belfast seems nailed on. The other two seats are up for grabs.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Good vs Bad Ideas
    Morality binds and blinds. @JonHaidt
    A wise-man can play the fool. A fool can only be a fool
    https://t.co/UUCStiPhtk #Regressiveleft https://t.co/ua1aDc46KB
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,909



    When I was concerned with these things the working, statistically based, hypothesis was that someone over 65 had 10 times the number of prescriptions as someone in their 40’s.

    I don't know about over 65s but chatting to my local pharmacist he reckons between 50 and 60% of the population of Hurstpierpoint over the age of 55 are on regular medication. That seems an incredible proportion to me but I have to assume he knows his business. I think it raises two questions:

    1. How much over prescribing is going on? Do people really need the medicines they take or is there an element of doctors giving patients a tablet to shut them up and make them go away? From the other side of the seven different medicines I am prescribed and take daily there are two which were prescribed years ago for conditions which I haven't had for years but which the GP says I should keep taking, just in case.

    2. Payment. Until I was sixty I paid about £100 a year for a "season ticket" as my direct contribution to the cost of my medication. The moment I turned sixty I no longer had to pay anything even though my financial position remained exactly the same. That to me is crackers. Free prescriptions should be for those who cannot afford to pay not because one has reached some arbitrary age. If all the over sixties who can afford £100 per annum (i.e. most of us) were required to cough up there would be a lot more dosh sloshing around in the NHS drugs fund.
    15m people aged 60 and above in UK.
    Assume 50% would pay your £100 a year season ticket.
    You've raised £750m a year. About 0.65% of NHS budget.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't help - but it's really not going to make that much difference.
    I can understand why politicians don't want to go there and think it's not worth the political cost.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    dr_spyn said:
    This is interesting. I had a meeting with senior Tories about what will happen vote wise in the next 2 years.

    I paraphrase completely, because I can't talk like a knob, and DYOR...

    if 2017 and 2018 local elections were to happen tomorrow, Tories would make gains universally...country, towns, cities.

    They believe that Lib Dem surge will be by-elctions only.

    UKIP - piss up and brewery comes to mind.

    SNP - mildly down.

    Labour under Corbym - down everywhere.

    Labour under AN Other will come back just as strong as before and we are ready.

    I said Corbyn strong in big cities and we won't win them...they just ignored me.

    They will tell you that we are working hard and take nothing for granted, which is true. But deep down, they are cock-sure! One of the reasons I suppose Mrs May is being gung-ho about Brexit with Commons and Lords.

    As I say, the above could be blarney, bravado, not strategy. Just sayin'
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. P, sounds like a lot of Macron supporters will go attend the rally :p
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    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    kle4 said:

    Looking very good for Macron, right?

    Macron will have a tougher fight on his hands against Juppe than against Fillon. So would not say it is looking good for him.

    But, Fillon is a stubborn git who appears to care more about hanging in there to try and save his skin by getting the immunity that the Presidency would bring. He has the required nominations, he COULD threaten resign from the Party and go it alone as an Independent against Juppe. Unlikely, but is a possibility and of course that would be excellent for Macron.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,774
    chestnut said:


    It's far easier to achieve a painless divorce from someone who you have no children with whilst renting a flat after one year of marriage, than it is to divorce someone after thirty years who you have a family and property with.

    The UK union is much more heavily embedded that the european one.

    Of course it is. If you do one stupid thing there is no logical argument for doing a similar and even more stupid thing. There's a credibility problem however for those that have already rejected the first when those that support breaking the EU relationship say it's stupid to break the UK one.

    Incidentally,it will be a far from painless divorce with the EU. Just a less painful one than Scotland breaking up the United Kingdom.

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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    rcs1000 said:

    Embarassing for Mr Malloch

    https://www.ft.com/content/d1b0453a-fde0-11e6-8d8e-a5e3738f9ae4


    Ted Malloch, a professor at Henley Business School who wants to become Donald Trump’s ambassador to the EU, made false statements to deceive two US banks into giving him multimillion-dollar loans, according to court documents.

    Legal papers obtained by the Financial Times reveal Mr Malloch and his wife Beth filed for bankruptcy in 2013, and list debts including credit cards, cable television bills and parking fines.

    But two US banks refused to let outstanding debts of $5.9m be written off, arguing that the couple had falsely represented their assets when applying for loans.


    If Malloch becomes US ambassador to the EU he will be able to avoid paying future parking fines. Shows his motivation for the job.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    nielh said:

    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Slice it however you want. You can't simultaneously argue the UK can flourish outside of the EU, but Scotland can't flourish outside the UK.

    It's far easier to achieve a painless divorce from someone who you have no children with whilst renting a flat after one year of marriage, than it is to divorce someone after thirty years who you have a family and property with.

    The UK union is much more heavily embedded that the european one.
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Slice it however you want. You can't simultaneously argue the UK can flourish outside of the EU, but Scotland can't flourish outside the UK.

    It's far easier to achieve a painless divorce from someone who you have no children with whilst renting a flat after one year of marriage, than it is to divorce someone after thirty years who you have a family and property with.

    The UK union is much more heavily embedded that the european one.
    So what? If it isnt fit for purpose then logievity alone isnt a reason to save it.
    Longevity isn't the key point; entanglement/entwinement is.

    The more entwined you are, the harder and more painful it is to uncouple.

    I would also say that the longer you have been together, the more likely you are to find reasons to stay though.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    FF43 said:

    Incidentally,it will be a far from painless divorce with the EU. Just a less painful one than Scotland breaking up the United Kingdom.

    I am not entirely convinced of the factual basis for that claim.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,242
    Dixie said:

    dr_spyn said:
    This is interesting. I had a meeting with senior Tories about what will happen vote wise in the next 2 years.

    I paraphrase completely, because I can't talk like a knob, and DYOR...

    if 2017 and 2018 local elections were to happen tomorrow, Tories would make gains universally...country, towns, cities.

    They believe that Lib Dem surge will be by-elctions only.

    UKIP - piss up and brewery comes to mind.

    SNP - mildly down.

    Labour under Corbym - down everywhere.

    Labour under AN Other will come back just as strong as before and we are ready.

    I said Corbyn strong in big cities and we won't win them...they just ignored me.

    They will tell you that we are working hard and take nothing for granted, which is true. But deep down, they are cock-sure! One of the reasons I suppose Mrs May is being gung-ho about Brexit with Commons and Lords.

    As I say, the above could be blarney, bravado, not strategy. Just sayin'
    'Senior Tories' believe the SNP vote will go down in May's council elections?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    Turnout in Strangford was up 61%, and in North Down 60%, which is up 11% and 10% respectively on last year. Overall, both Unionist and Nationalist seats seem to be averaging about a 10% increase on last year, albeit turnout is usually a bit higher in Nationalist seats.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    chestnut said:

    Longevity isn't the key point; entanglement/entwinement is.

    The more entwined you are, the harder and more painful it is to uncouple.

    Therein lies the rub for the Brexiteers...

    Disentangling the Scottish legal system from the UK legal system (for example) will be far easier than disentangling car factories in England from their pan-European supply chains

    To claim that Brexit is much easier than Indy is at best, wishful thinking
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2017
    Ulster Elections Coverage :

    Apart from 24 hour news channels and social media full coverage is available :

    BBC NI - From 1:30pm
    BBC Parliament - From 2:15pm
    Radio Ulster and Radio Foyle - From 3:00pm
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, but we didn't hold the referendum during a comparable separate negotiation.

    Also, the upheaval would be far more from splitting a country than from leaving a supra-national body with aspirations of nationhood.

    Once again the scale of the challenge that Brexit brings is underestimated.
    No it's overestimated constantly. Scotland is an integrated part of a single nation and has been for 300 years, the EU is a glorified trade body with overegged aspirations.
    The European mainland increasingly functions as a borderless country, no matter what 'peripheral northerners' think. One silly driver set a satnav wrongly in Belgium and ended up in Zagreb.

    Countries like the UK and Denmark are entitled to say they want borders for ever but can't stop the continental countries which began the EU and the ones which willingly joined, e.g. Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic from joining together without borders.

    Scotland had a tradition of being closer to France than England. It may still feel that way. I don't know.

    Neither Scotland nor Ireland seem remotely as prosperous as other northern member states, i.e. Denmark or Sweden. Ireland sold its soul to US corporations in order to stay afloat financially. Would an independent Scotland do that?
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Dixie said:

    dr_spyn said:
    This is interesting. I had a meeting with senior Tories about what will happen vote wise in the next 2 years.

    I paraphrase completely, because I can't talk like a knob, and DYOR...

    if 2017 and 2018 local elections were to happen tomorrow, Tories would make gains universally...country, towns, cities.

    They believe that Lib Dem surge will be by-elctions only.

    UKIP - piss up and brewery comes to mind.

    SNP - mildly down.

    Labour under Corbym - down everywhere.

    Labour under AN Other will come back just as strong as before and we are ready.

    I said Corbyn strong in big cities and we won't win them...they just ignored me.

    They will tell you that we are working hard and take nothing for granted, which is true. But deep down, they are cock-sure! One of the reasons I suppose Mrs May is being gung-ho about Brexit with Commons and Lords.

    As I say, the above could be blarney, bravado, not strategy. Just sayin'
    'Senior Tories' believe the SNP vote will go down in May's council elections?
    share of vote versus most recent elections. Not versus 4 years ago. Post SINDY. Anyway, take with pinch of salt, forecasts are not actuals. Just passing on.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited March 2017

    Countries like the UK and Denmark are entitled to say they want borders for ever but can't stop the continental countries which began the EU and the ones which willingly joined, e.g. Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic from joining together without borders.

    I notice you glossed over Hungary there.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,913
    Scott_P said:

    chestnut said:

    Longevity isn't the key point; entanglement/entwinement is.

    The more entwined you are, the harder and more painful it is to uncouple.

    Therein lies the rub for the Brexiteers...

    Disentangling the Scottish legal system from the UK legal system (for example) will be far easier than disentangling car factories in England from their pan-European supply chains

    To claim that Brexit is much easier than Indy is at best, wishful thinking
    Far more people are committed to the Union at an emotional level in Scotland, than are committed to the EU at an emotional level in the UK. That's the key difference, rather than dry arguments about economics.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,242
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    dr_spyn said:
    This is interesting. I had a meeting with senior Tories about what will happen vote wise in the next 2 years.

    I paraphrase completely, because I can't talk like a knob, and DYOR...

    if 2017 and 2018 local elections were to happen tomorrow, Tories would make gains universally...country, towns, cities.

    They believe that Lib Dem surge will be by-elctions only.

    UKIP - piss up and brewery comes to mind.

    SNP - mildly down.

    Labour under Corbym - down everywhere.

    Labour under AN Other will come back just as strong as before and we are ready.

    I said Corbyn strong in big cities and we won't win them...they just ignored me.

    They will tell you that we are working hard and take nothing for granted, which is true. But deep down, they are cock-sure! One of the reasons I suppose Mrs May is being gung-ho about Brexit with Commons and Lords.

    As I say, the above could be blarney, bravado, not strategy. Just sayin'
    'Senior Tories' believe the SNP vote will go down in May's council elections?
    share of vote versus most recent elections. Not versus 4 years ago. Post SINDY. Anyway, take with pinch of salt, forecasts are not actuals. Just passing on.
    Hmm, the last poll on Scottish council elections had the SNP marginally up on the Holyrood election. Still, I'm sure Tessie's masterplan to turn the locals into a straw poll on another referendum is bound to bear fruit.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,683
    edited March 2017
    Scott_P said:
    Are they talking about a binding Referendum with Government authority, or an SNP vanity poll?

    (To put it non-controversially. Ahem.)
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Scott_P said:

    chestnut said:

    Longevity isn't the key point; entanglement/entwinement is.

    The more entwined you are, the harder and more painful it is to uncouple.

    Therein lies the rub for the Brexiteers...

    Disentangling the Scottish legal system from the UK legal system (for example) will be far easier than disentangling car factories in England from their pan-European supply chains

    To claim that Brexit is much easier than Indy is at best, wishful thinking
    The idea that you think there are no supply chains between England and Scotland is rather quaint.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Regarding Scotland and England can either countries government just legally withdraw from the Act of Union ?
This discussion has been closed.