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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542

    Mr. Eagles, cheers (although I did know it was due next year!).

    Well I'm writing a thread about the Scottish Independence referendum as we speak that should go up tomorrow afternoon.

    It will delight PBers of all persuasions.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:

    Dave to go As a Fathertastic.

    "As a father Dave" against "like any parent Ed" - whoever wins, we all lose.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Eagles, whilst interesting I'm afraid it pales in comparison to the delights of differential front end grip.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542

    Mr. Eagles, whilst interesting I'm afraid it pales in comparison to the delights of differential front end grip.

    Wait until you read it.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    Sex Scandal involving Len McCluskey and union jobs

    Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis 2m

    MAIL ON SUNDAY: Mother of union boss love child fixes MPs for Labour #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers

    pic.twitter.com/kAax6KsJKv
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Eagles, don't be silly. Next you'll be claiming it's more thrilling than fixed gear ratios.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @TSE

    "Fixes MPs for Labour" seems to mean "appointed political director of Unite" in Mail on Sunday speak. Has the silly season arrived early?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:

    Neil said:

    tim said:

    Dave to go As a Fathertastic.

    "As a father Dave" against "like any parent Ed" - whoever wins, we all lose.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html
    All politicians should have electrodes fitted to their genitalia and receive electric shocks of increasing voltage every time they go on about their children.
    So should you when you go on about Cameron doing it for the millionth time (while ignoring every Labour politician who has ever done it)!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    Neil said:

    @TSE

    "Fixes MPs for Labour" seems to mean "appointed political director of Unite" in Mail on Sunday speak. Has the silly season arrived early?

    I think the silly season arrived when people suggested that Australia might win the Ashes earlier on this summer
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @TSE

    I see SO has been exiled to Hong Kong for that particular crime.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    Neil said:

    @TSE

    I see SO has been exiled to Hong Kong for that particular crime.

    DavidL and Grandiose are in self exile at conhome for putting the mockers on England in the first for praising England's batting and then we lost two wickets straight away

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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    ... "If independence is rejected, however, there is is a real danger that politicians at Westminster and officials in Whitehall may think they can put away the files and not worry about Scotland anymore.

    "Proposals for increased devolution might then be shelved. That is quite a likely outcome but it would be a huge mistake.

    "It would probably mean the next time there was a big surge in support for independence in Scotland maybe, in 10 or 20 years time, it would carry the day."
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/gavin-mccrone-indy-would-be-costlybut-no-vote-will-mean-no-more-devo.1374326058
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    tim said:

    tim said:

    RodCrosby said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rod - Except for Chuka, who is now the true 'heir to Blair' apparently!
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b2e9e3a6-ef46-11e2-bb27-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ZYhZXKkZ

    Yes, more of the same, please! A rabble of chancers and narcissists scrabbling for the top job ten minutes after becoming an MP.

    Labour - not fit to manage a bus stop...

    Looks like Labour has lost the William Joyce vote then
    Did Churchill really say "we've slaughtered the wrong pig" in 1945 (as claimed by Rod C on last night's PB NightHawks)?

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=179239

    http://viennanet.info/polemics/churchill

    I was shocked to find that it's a phrase used by Third Reich revisionists, shocked.
    So they read it in a document published by the Mises Institute, like I and countless others did... Anyone can use the internet, I believe...

    It also appears in at least one scholarly work.
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zJDo96sHGa8C&pg=PA22&dq=churchill+wrong++pig&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qPnqUY_1DMTo7Aad_YDgAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pig&f=false

    You will never catch me out by using the methods of Goebbels, tim.
    Or at all...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    ... "If independence is rejected, however, there is is a real danger that politicians at Westminster and officials in Whitehall may think they can put away the files and not worry about Scotland anymore.

    "Proposals for increased devolution might then be shelved. That is quite a likely outcome but it would be a huge mistake.

    "It would probably mean the next time there was a big surge in support for independence in Scotland maybe, in 10 or 20 years time, it would carry the day."
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/gavin-mccrone-indy-would-be-costlybut-no-vote-will-mean-no-more-devo.1374326058


    If there is a No vote, I'm hoping for some form of constitutional settlement for all the countries in the UK.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    RodCrosby said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rod - Except for Chuka, who is now the true 'heir to Blair' apparently!
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b2e9e3a6-ef46-11e2-bb27-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ZYhZXKkZ

    Yes, more of the same, please! A rabble of chancers and narcissists scrabbling for the top job ten minutes after becoming an MP.

    Labour - not fit to manage a bus stop...

    Looks like Labour has lost the William Joyce vote then
    Did Churchill really say "we've slaughtered the wrong pig" in 1945 (as claimed by Rod C on last night's PB NightHawks)?

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=179239

    http://viennanet.info/polemics/churchill

    I was shocked to find that it's a phrase used by Third Reich revisionists, shocked.
    So they read it in a document published by the Mises Institute, like I and countless others did... Anyone can use the internet, I believe...

    It also appears in at least one scholarly work.
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zJDo96sHGa8C&pg=PA22&dq=churchill+wrong++pig&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qPnqUY_1DMTo7Aad_YDgAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pig&f=false

    You will never catch me out by using the methods of Goebbels, tim.
    Or at all...
    Irony in mentioning the name Goebbels, Rod?
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    RodCrosby said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rod - Except for Chuka, who is now the true 'heir to Blair' apparently!
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b2e9e3a6-ef46-11e2-bb27-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ZYhZXKkZ

    Yes, more of the same, please! A rabble of chancers and narcissists scrabbling for the top job ten minutes after becoming an MP.

    Labour - not fit to manage a bus stop...

    Looks like Labour has lost the William Joyce vote then
    Did Churchill really say "we've slaughtered the wrong pig" in 1945 (as claimed by Rod C on last night's PB NightHawks)?

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=179239

    http://viennanet.info/polemics/churchill

    I was shocked to find that it's a phrase used by Third Reich revisionists, shocked.
    So they read it in a document published by the Mises Institute, like I and countless others did... Anyone can use the internet, I believe...

    It also appears in at least one scholarly work.
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zJDo96sHGa8C&pg=PA22&dq=churchill+wrong++pig&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qPnqUY_1DMTo7Aad_YDgAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pig&f=false

    You will never catch me out by using the methods of Goebbels, tim.
    Or at all...
    Irony in mentioning the name Goebbels, Rod?
    Irony? He was one of my best students!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    RodCrosby said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rod - Except for Chuka, who is now the true 'heir to Blair' apparently!
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b2e9e3a6-ef46-11e2-bb27-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ZYhZXKkZ

    Yes, more of the same, please! A rabble of chancers and narcissists scrabbling for the top job ten minutes after becoming an MP.

    Labour - not fit to manage a bus stop...

    Looks like Labour has lost the William Joyce vote then
    Did Churchill really say "we've slaughtered the wrong pig" in 1945 (as claimed by Rod C on last night's PB NightHawks)?

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=179239

    http://viennanet.info/polemics/churchill

    I was shocked to find that it's a phrase used by Third Reich revisionists, shocked.
    So they read it in a document published by the Mises Institute, like I and countless others did... Anyone can use the internet, I believe...

    It also appears in at least one scholarly work.
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zJDo96sHGa8C&pg=PA22&dq=churchill+wrong++pig&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qPnqUY_1DMTo7Aad_YDgAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pig&f=false

    You will never catch me out by using the methods of Goebbels, tim.
    Or at all...
    Irony in mentioning the name Goebbels, Rod?
    Irony? He was one of my best students!
    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2013



    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381

    Ah well, you'd better write a scholarly rebuttal to that Professor of History in Montana then...

    Wait a minute... Churchill by Himself ??

    Now who said "History will be kind to me... for I intend to write it..."?
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited July 2013
    While I would like to be in self-exile, I have in fact been at work experience in London all week at a large law firm. (We won though, didn't we?!)

    Anyway, NickP etc, the problem lies for most people in accurately characterising the error in the first place - most significantly, the difference between ensuring the sample is representative of the population and turning their responses into a nowcast. [Edit: and a nowcast won't give you a forecast, that's another thing that can be confused.]
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:



    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381

    Ah well, you'd better write a scholarly rebuttal to that Professor of History in Montana then...
    Montana? LOL!

    And what was his source?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    The Churchill Centre responded to a question:

    "We searched our research database but have not found either "we slaughtered the wrong pig" or "we
    fought the wrong enemy." However, "slaughtered the wrong pig" is a possible Churchill expression, since he
    often used animal analogies. Yet, since he was very favorably disposed to pigs, he might not have compared his ene- mies to them. (He said, "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you; give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.")
    Churchill never had any doubt, from the rise of Hitler to 1945, that the Nazis not the Bolsheviks were the main enemy. He did begin to think, once the war seemed won, that they had conquered one mortal foe, only to be faced by another."

    http://www.winstonchurchill.org/images/finesthour/Vol.01 No.130.pdf

    There is also (similarly sourced) the calumny that when Churchill visited Lusitania at Liverpool (no such visit recorded) that he described her as "20,000 tons of live bait " - later using her as a trap to drag the Americans into WWI - when at the time it was in Britain's national interest that the Americns stay out of the war so their factories could carry on supplying Britain - not stockpiling munitions for themselves - as happened when they eventually entered the war...
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:



    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381

    Ah well, you'd better write a scholarly rebuttal to that Professor of History in Montana then...
    Montana? LOL!

    And what was his source?
    Yes, you know Montana, it borders Canada to the north, Wyoming to the south.

    here's his address
    http://www.montana.edu/wwwhi/2010/FacultyWebPages/History/Large.html
    His students seem to like him
    http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=390597
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    RodCrosby said:



    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381

    Ah well, you'd better write a scholarly rebuttal to that Professor of History in Montana then...
    Montana? LOL!

    And what was his source?
    Indeed - some claim Churchill said it in the HoC on 2 Nov 1946 - but since that was a Saturday that may be unlikely....
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Rod

    I'm amazed that someone who is willing to stand up to the consensus of the most eminent historians and lawyers on certain issues of major debate is willing to hang his hat so firmly on the word of a professor from Montana on something so irrelevant.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    The Churchill Centre responded to a question:

    "We searched our research database but have not found either "we slaughtered the wrong pig" or "we
    fought the wrong enemy." However, "slaughtered the wrong pig" is a possible Churchill expression, since he
    often used animal analogies. Yet, since he was very favorably disposed to pigs, he might not have compared his ene- mies to them. (He said, "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you; give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.")
    Churchill never had any doubt, from the rise of Hitler to 1945, that the Nazis not the Bolsheviks were the main enemy. He did begin to think, once the war seemed won, that they had conquered one mortal foe, only to be faced by another."
    .

    Not exactly a rebuttal then. Anyhow, the point is I offered it in good faith from sources other than alleged "revisionist" websites.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    RodCrosby said:

    The Churchill Centre responded to a question:

    "We searched our research database but have not found either "we slaughtered the wrong pig" or "we
    fought the wrong enemy." However, "slaughtered the wrong pig" is a possible Churchill expression, since he
    often used animal analogies. Yet, since he was very favorably disposed to pigs, he might not have compared his ene- mies to them. (He said, "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you; give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.")
    Churchill never had any doubt, from the rise of Hitler to 1945, that the Nazis not the Bolsheviks were the main enemy. He did begin to think, once the war seemed won, that they had conquered one mortal foe, only to be faced by another."
    .

    Not exactly a rebuttal then. Anyhow, the point is I offered it in good faith from sources other than alleged "revisionist" websites.
    Unfortunately the google book does not list the primary source for his quote - and since some of the other sources cite a Saturday sitting in the HoC as the source, you'll understand why I remain sceptical.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    RIP Mel Smith.

    I knew him very well at Oxford, when he was President of OUDS and I was Technical Director.

    It was obvious even then that he was an extraordinary talent.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Conspiracy theory?

    No, valid historical question. And Churchill did make it clear what his objective was, whether or not the Lusy was actually his handiwork...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    edited July 2013
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:



    The only historically accurate Churchill quote mentioning a pig is the following:

    Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig! He looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal.
    As cited in Churchill by Himself (2008), ed. Langworth, PublicAffairs, p. 535 ISBN 1586486381

    Ah well, you'd better write a scholarly rebuttal to that Professor of History in Montana then...
    Montana? LOL!

    And what was his source?
    Yes, you know Montana, it borders Canada to the north, Wyoming to the south.

    here's his address
    http://www.montana.edu/wwwhi/2010/FacultyWebPages/History/Large.html
    His students seem to like him
    http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=390597
    What were his primary source(s) for the alleged quote?

    You do realise we're treading on apocryphal MacMillan "Events, dear boy! Events!" territory here?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:

    Conspiracy theory?

    No, valid historical question. And Churchill did make it clear what his objective was, whether or not the Lusy was actually his handiwork...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

    Lusitania came to grief two whole years before the US entered WW1...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    RodCrosby said:

    Conspiracy theory?

    No, valid historical question. And Churchill did make it clear what his objective was, whether or not the Lusy was actually his handiwork...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

    You're safer in Montana - it was known at the time that the Remington bullets were onboard - and the idea that they "exploded" and sank the ship in 18 minutes is farcical - much more likely was a catastrophic failure of her high pressure steam system - further, the idea that Churchill (then up to hi neck in Galipoli) was micromanaging the western approaches to put the worlds second fastest liner in harms way is, frankly, deluded.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Conspiracy theory?

    No, valid historical question. And Churchill did make it clear what his objective was, whether or not the Lusy was actually his handiwork...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

    You're safer in Montana - it was known at the time that the Remington bullets were onboard - and the idea that they "exploded" and sank the ship in 18 minutes is farcical - much more likely was a catastrophic failure of her high pressure steam system - further, the idea that Churchill (then up to hi neck in Galipoli) was micromanaging the western approaches to put the worlds second fastest liner in harms way is, frankly, deluded.
    My my. Quite an expert on the Lusitania, aren't you?

    Riddle me this. Who was it who withdrew the cruiser escort that was supposed to be waiting for the Lusy off Queenstown? Who was it who lied that the Germans fired two or three torpedoes, when they knew within hours (from code intercepts) that they had only fired one? Who was it who tried to frame Captain Turner for responsibility for the sinking? What was in the 3800 "boxes of cheese" aboard Lusy that were destined for the Naval Research Station at Shoeburyness?

    This scholarly webpage may add to your knowledge.
    http://www.lusitania.net/deadlycargo.htm
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Conspiracy theory?

    No, valid historical question. And Churchill did make it clear what his objective was, whether or not the Lusy was actually his handiwork...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

    You're safer in Montana - it was known at the time that the Remington bullets were onboard - and the idea that they "exploded" and sank the ship in 18 minutes is farcical - much more likely was a catastrophic failure of her high pressure steam system - further, the idea that Churchill (then up to hi neck in Galipoli) was micromanaging the western approaches to put the worlds second fastest liner in harms way is, frankly, deluded.
    My my. Quite an expert on the Lusitania, aren't you?
    More than you, evidently. The website of a book that cites discredited or innaccurate sources is hardly provides much confidence. If you are interested, I suggest you read Diana Preston's "Wilful Murder" - for a detailed analysis of many of the conspiracy theories.

  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    tim said:

    @fitalass

    @gdnpoliticswire: NHS chief says sorry to Andy Burnham for Tory 'smear' campaign http://t.co/HW6aO8YTCx


    The Tories didn't smear, they were disgusted that Labour intentionally ignored complaints about poor hospital care, in order to avoid negative publicity. Labour were and are all about spin. The Tories told the truth.

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Lusitania conspiracy

    ,BROADER ASPECTS OF THE CONSPIRACY THESIS

    Beyond the direct evidence contradicting the conspiracy thesis is the extremely dubious logic of any such plot, resting as it would on the assumption that the liner and the U-boat could be steered into each other and that the sinking of a British liner would result inevitably in a U.S. declaration of war on Germany. Winston Churchill would have been extremely naive about both the temperament of Woodrow Wilson and the state of U.S. military preparedness to have any such notion. Not only did the United States not come close to war with Germany in the aftermath of the disaster, but it would be difficult even to demonstrate that LUSITANIA set in motion an inexorable slide toward war; U.S. relations with the Allies and the Central Powers did not follow a linear course after May 1915, and in fact in late 1916 Washington's relations with the Allies were worse than they had been at any time since the start of the war."

    http://www.gwpda.org/naval/lusika04.htm
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    @Perdix, that link isn't working, but well worth reading the article. Truly a classic of the genre. :)
    Guardian - NHS chief says sorry to Andy Burnham for Tory 'smear' campaign
    perdix said:

    tim said:

    @fitalass

    @gdnpoliticswire: NHS chief says sorry to Andy Burnham for Tory 'smear' campaign http://t.co/HW6aO8YTCx


    The Tories didn't smear, they were disgusted that Labour intentionally ignored complaints about poor hospital care, in order to avoid negative publicity. Labour were and are all about spin. The Tories told the truth.

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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    fitalass said:
    ‘I mentioned patients 19 times, Burnham mentioned them twice. That sums up the difference between us

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited July 2013
    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...

    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    Your term, not mine. Why would the Lusitania benefit by being escorted by a slower destroyer that would also rob her of her mercantile status?
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Despite the many media appearances Burnham under took last week, it was quite striking how little he focussed on the patients who had been let down by the NHS.

    fitalass said:
    ‘I mentioned patients 19 times, Burnham mentioned them twice. That sums up the difference between us

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    There's no VI in the Sunday Times, all they've published so far is some polling on Crosby, and it pretty bad for Dave and the Tories

    60% of respondents feel the government has been leant on by tobacco companies

    Should Lynton Crosby be allowed to work for the Tories while also being employed by Commercial clients.

    Yes 18%

    No 64%

    Don't know 18%

    and

    Do you support plain packaging for cigarettes

    Yes 58%

    No 26%

    DK 16%
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @fitalass

    'Daily Mail - How Shadow Health Secretary's staff have been editing Wikipedia to remove 'negative references' to his role in NHS scandal'

    Shows how toxic Burnham has become,yet another reminder of the Brown cover-ups & incompetents.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    I've just come up with one of my own:

    "Someone who will rely on the writings of a professor from Montana without checking them when they suit their world view but will forever question mainstream consensus opinion when it doesnt coincide with their prejudices."
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:

    There's no VI in the Sunday Times, all they've published so far is some polling on Crosby, and it pretty bad for Dave and the Tories

    60% of respondents feel the government has been leant on by tobacco companies

    Should Lynton Crosby be allowed to work for the Tories while also being employed by Commercial clients.

    Yes 18%

    No 64%

    Don't know 18%

    and

    Do you support plain packaging for cigarettes

    Yes 58%

    No 26%

    DK 16%

    The public seem to have sussed Dave don't they.
    Sweaty and evasive TV performances haven't helped
    Dont be so modest - it's mainly down to your posts here.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    Only 25% of the public believes the government when it says it wants more evidence on plain packaging.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    Depending on which Sunday Times article you read Labour's lead has

    a) Increased

    b) Decreased

    But no sodding figures
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    tim said:

    There's no VI in the Sunday Times, all they've published so far is some polling on Crosby, and it pretty bad for Dave and the Tories

    60% of respondents feel the government has been leant on by tobacco companies

    Should Lynton Crosby be allowed to work for the Tories while also being employed by Commercial clients.

    Yes 18%

    No 64%

    Don't know 18%

    and

    Do you support plain packaging for cigarettes

    Yes 58%

    No 26%

    DK 16%

    The public seem to have sussed Dave don't they.
    Sweaty and evasive TV performances haven't helped
    Nah, the public are looking for the Factor 50 cream or Calamine lotion....

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Neil said:

    tim said:

    There's no VI in the Sunday Times, all they've published so far is some polling on Crosby, and it pretty bad for Dave and the Tories

    60% of respondents feel the government has been leant on by tobacco companies

    Should Lynton Crosby be allowed to work for the Tories while also being employed by Commercial clients.

    Yes 18%

    No 64%

    Don't know 18%

    and

    Do you support plain packaging for cigarettes

    Yes 58%

    No 26%

    DK 16%

    The public seem to have sussed Dave don't they.
    Sweaty and evasive TV performances haven't helped
    Dont be so modest - it's mainly down to your posts here.
    Entirely, I'd have said.....
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    tim said:

    There's no VI in the Sunday Times, all they've published so far is some polling on Crosby, and it pretty bad for Dave and the Tories

    60% of respondents feel the government has been leant on by tobacco companies

    Should Lynton Crosby be allowed to work for the Tories while also being employed by Commercial clients.

    Yes 18%

    No 64%

    Don't know 18%

    and

    Do you support plain packaging for cigarettes

    Yes 58%

    No 26%

    DK 16%

    The public seem to have sussed Dave don't they.
    Sweaty and evasive TV performances haven't helped
    Nah, this is just knee-jerk anti-politician sentiment. You'd get it if you asked about any industry influencing government and so on. People generally don't trust lobbyists, political advisers and politicians themselves, but this stuff doesn't stick that much to individual sides and cases. If you put a poll in the field asking about Adam Werrity you'd find no-one remembers who he is. Crosby's negatives will blow over and voters will return to the 'plague on all your houses' position long before the next election.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited July 2013
    'Hunt says he has seen for himself how the NHS can fail the elderly.
    ‘I was at an A&E unit doing a shift with the staff, helping with odd jobs, when they admitted a woman with dementia in her 90s. She had come from a care home, yet they didn’t know a thing about her.'

    If only Burnham had got off his lazy backside he might have had a clue what was going on.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    Depending on which Sunday Times article you read Labour's lead has

    a) Increased

    b) Decreased

    But no sodding figures

    it could quite easily be up vs Friday's 5 but down vs last Sunday's 11..

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    rodwarnerrodwarner Posts: 8
    Len McClusky has marginally gone up in my estimation - a notch beyond boring...
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Eagles, they are just teasing you as they know you stay up on a Saturday waiting for these poll numbers for PB. :)

    Depending on which Sunday Times article you read Labour's lead has

    a) Increased

    b) Decreased

    But no sodding figures

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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,792
    Ed Miliband reveals that he was at Headingley in 1977 as a seven year old when Geoff Boycott scored his hundredth hundred:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01d1zx0
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    edited July 2013
    fitalass said:

    Eagles, they are just teasing you as they know you stay up on a Saturday waiting for these poll numbers for PB. :)

    Depending on which Sunday Times article you read Labour's lead has

    a) Increased

    b) Decreased

    But no sodding figures

    It is the second weekend in a row that they've not published the VI figures.

    It is so frustrating.

    Only marginally less frustrating than when they spread their VI figures and supplementaries across ten different articles as they did a few months ago.

    They should really be aware of how important their poll is to OGH and pbers.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @AndyJS

    Ed's Jackie Milburn moment.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,792
    edited July 2013
    I'm impressed by Ed being a cricket fan at the age of seven. I didn't take any interest in the game until I was eleven.
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Sounds a bit like the polling equivalent of a dance of the seven veils. :)

    fitalass said:

    Eagles, they are just teasing you as they know you stay up on a Saturday waiting for these poll numbers for PB. :)

    Depending on which Sunday Times article you read Labour's lead has

    a) Increased

    b) Decreased

    But no sodding figures

    It is the second weekend in a row that they've not published the VI figures.

    It is so frustrating.

    Only marginally less frustrating than when they spread their VI figures and supplementaries across ten different articles as they did a few months ago.

    They should really be aware of how important their poll is to OGH and pbers.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,542
    edited July 2013
    john_zims said:

    @AndyJS

    Ed's Jackie Milburn moment.

    Blair saying he saw Wor Jackie play is a myth

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7749778.stm
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    Guardian - Real IRA bomb plotter Larry Keane found murdered in Ireland

    "His death came in the same week that another Real IRA bomber, Seamus McKenna, was buried in his native Co Louth near the border. McKenna had been named in a civil action taken by families of the Omagh victims who accused him of transporting the Real IRA bomb to the Co Tyrone market town in August 1998. He died from injuries after falling from the roof of a school in Dundalk last week but was kept alive on a life support machine until his organs could be donated."
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Andy_JS said:

    Japan tells Britain to stay in the EU:

    Really. The Japanese. That's nice. Cheers for that, guys.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    Like Carlotta I suspect YG is somewhere between 5 and 11 - the 5 looked dodgy as it was accompanied by several sudden shifts in secondaries for no obvious reason, and the 11 looked out of line for the same reason. Polls that shift VI while leaving secondaries fairly stable are credible, as are polls which have secondary movements that make sense - say a shift on health either way following all the health debates. But when most of the secondaries suddenly shift together it's probably a dud sample.

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    GeoffM said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japan tells Britain to stay in the EU:

    Really. The Japanese. That's nice. Cheers for that, guys.

    If I'm reading it right the Foreign Office asked foreign governments what they thought. Most governments seem to have treated it as a bit of internal politics and declined to comment, but you can't blame the Japanese for answering...

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    john_zims said:

    'Hunt says he has seen for himself how the NHS can fail the elderly.
    ‘I was at an A&E unit doing a shift with the staff, helping with odd jobs, when they admitted a woman with dementia in her 90s. She had come from a care home, yet they didn’t know a thing about her.'

    If only Burnham had got off his lazy backside he might have had a clue what was going on.

    Forget Burnham for a minute. Look at what Hunt is saying. Do you detect his wistful longing for a national database of personal health records, with shared access for (non-NHS) care homes? Can you say "failed IT project" that was scrapped (or was it?) by Lansley?
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2013
    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    I've just come up with one of my own:

    "Someone who will rely on the writings of a professor from Montana without checking them when they suit their world view but will forever question mainstream consensus opinion when it doesnt coincide with their prejudices."
    So you "checked" him, did you, and proved him wrong? Sorry, but that little nugget must be lost somewhere amongst the verbiage... Btw, what have you got against Montana? Ever been there? If not, why are you prejudiced against this man?

    Better tell this long-serving liberal German foreign minister that he's wrong, also. And prejudiced. And a conspiracy theorist.
    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/public/International Affairs/2012/88_6/88_6Interview.pdf

    And of course, these guys are prejudiced, non-mainstream, revisionists and conspiracy theorists.
    http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/1/74.short

    Roll on the glorious 12th. I fancy some grouse shooting. I'm getting bored with blasting the turkeys of PB...
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    @edmundintokyo That's how I read it as well - or rather as a general request for comments from foreigners. That struck me as a particularly limp-wristed (and therefore typically FCO) way of doing things. In the good old days we'd have just got on with doing what we decided was best by ourselves.

    I suppose given our own habit of telling other countries how to run their internal affairs we shouldn't be too surprised when someone returns the 'favour'.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    GeoffM said:

    @edmundintokyo That's how I read it as well - or rather as a general request for comments from foreigners. That struck me as a particularly limp-wristed (and therefore typically FCO) way of doing things. In the good old days we'd have just got on with doing what we decided was best by ourselves.

    I don't think it's particularly the FCO. The whole review is a displacement activity to make the the sceptics think something's happening without actually committing to anything.
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    Don't know what all the fuss is about, the US has already indicated that they would like us to stay in the EU, and now the Japanese have now followed suit. Its the UK media summer season. :)

    GeoffM said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japan tells Britain to stay in the EU:

    Really. The Japanese. That's nice. Cheers for that, guys.

    If I'm reading it right the Foreign Office asked foreign governments what they thought. Most governments seem to have treated it as a bit of internal politics and declined to comment, but you can't blame the Japanese for answering...

  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    I've just come up with one of my own:

    "Someone who will rely on the writings of a professor from Montana without checking them when they suit their world view but will forever question mainstream consensus opinion when it doesnt coincide with their prejudices."
    So you "checked" him, did you, and proved him wrong? Sorry, but that little nugget must be lost somewhere amongst the verbiage... Btw, what have you got against Montana? Ever been there? If not, why are you prejudiced against this man?

    Better tell this long-serving liberal German foreign minister that he's wrong, also. And prejudiced. And a conspiracy theorist.
    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/public/International Affairs/2012/88_6/88_6Interview.pdf

    And of course, these guys are prejudiced, non-mainstream, revisionists and conspiracy theorists.
    http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/1/74.short

    Roll on the glorious 12th. I fancy some grouse shooting. I'm getting bored with blasting the turkeys of PB...
    The Montana guy doesn't provide a primary source for the alleged Churchill quote in the Google Book snippet you quoted...
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2013



    Your term, not mine. Why would the Lusitania benefit by being escorted by a slower destroyer that would also rob her of her mercantile status?

    Look up the underwater speed of a WW1 U-boat and tell me again that HMS Juno (she was a cruiser, not a destroyer) was "slow".

    Sub-clause this or that of the Hague convention don't have much practical application "in the field." Juno could have escorted Lusy without technically 'escorting' her...

    Remember: Britannia waives the rules! ;-)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    fitalass said:

    Don't know what all the fuss is about, the US has already indicated that they would like us to stay in the EU, and now the Japanese have now followed suit. Its the UK media summer season. :)

    GeoffM said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japan tells Britain to stay in the EU:

    Really. The Japanese. That's nice. Cheers for that, guys.

    If I'm reading it right the Foreign Office asked foreign governments what they thought. Most governments seem to have treated it as a bit of internal politics and declined to comment, but you can't blame the Japanese for answering...

    I'm sure the US would love us telling them they were wrong to break away in 1776?

    :)
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
    RodCrosby said:



    Your term, not mine. Why would the Lusitania benefit by being escorted by a slower destroyer that would also rob her of her mercantile status?

    Look up the underwater speed of of a WW1 U-boat and tell me again that HMS Juno (she was a cruiser, not a destroyer) was "slow".

    Sub-clause this or that of the Hague convention don't have much practical application "in the field." Juno could have escorted Lusy without technically 'escorting' her...

    Remember: Britannia waives the rules! ;-)
    Juno's top speed was 18.5 kt. Lusitania 22 kt, even with only three of four boiler rooms in use at the time of her loss.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RodCrosby said:

    Look up the underwater speed of of a WW1 U-boat and tell me again that HMS Juno (she was a cruiser, not a destroyer) was "slow".

    The reference to speed was the Lusitania relative to the (protected) cruiser, not the cruiser relative to the submarine.
    RodCrosby said:

    Juno could have escorted Lusy without technically 'escorting' her...

    What, sort of lurk in the shadows with her collar turned up? Avoid the streetlights? Hide behind the dustbins?


  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    Sunil, got to love the Americans. They fought for Independence, and yet they now avidly follow our Royal family to the extent that they are mobbed when they visit the USA.
    In the Loop - Malcolm Tucker visits the White House
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLIP0ZtoiO4

    fitalass said:

    Don't know what all the fuss is about, the US has already indicated that they would like us to stay in the EU, and now the Japanese have now followed suit. Its the UK media summer season. :)

    GeoffM said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japan tells Britain to stay in the EU:

    Really. The Japanese. That's nice. Cheers for that, guys.

    If I'm reading it right the Foreign Office asked foreign governments what they thought. Most governments seem to have treated it as a bit of internal politics and declined to comment, but you can't blame the Japanese for answering...

    I'm sure the US would love us telling them they were wrong to break away in 1776?

    :)
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    I've just come up with one of my own:

    "Someone who will rely on the writings of a professor from Montana without checking them when they suit their world view but will forever question mainstream consensus opinion when it doesnt coincide with their prejudices."
    So you "checked" him, did you, and proved him wrong? Sorry, but that little nugget must be lost somewhere amongst the verbiage... Btw, what have you got against Montana? Ever been there? If not, why are you prejudiced against this man?

    Better tell this long-serving liberal German foreign minister that he's wrong, also. And prejudiced. And a conspiracy theorist.
    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/public/International Affairs/2012/88_6/88_6Interview.pdf

    And of course, these guys are prejudiced, non-mainstream, revisionists and conspiracy theorists.
    http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/1/74.short

    Roll on the glorious 12th. I fancy some grouse shooting. I'm getting bored with blasting the turkeys of PB...
    The Montana guy doesn't provide a primary source for the alleged Churchill quote in the Google Book snippet you quoted...
    He does. But just assume he got it from Stormfront, if it gives you an orgasm...
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    I'm done chasing phantoms and the terminally obtuse for tonight...

    Ciao. Something vaguely interesting is stirring in the room next door. I must go and pay her some attention...
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    @old_labour

    Oh, for the Like button ;)
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (From Previous Thread)

    I got 55% on the "Are you Muslim?" questionnaire. But, as is common with a lot of such questionnaires, there is a fairly badly-hidden hidden-agenda - as is obvious from the badly-worded questions, leading questions, and questions with an assumed premise. I was unhappy with at least half of the questions and was not satisfied that any of the answer options was an accurate one for my views.

    It reminds me of an "Are you liberal?" questionnaire I did once, where the first question asked me if there should be a flat-rate of income tax. I said "no". Even without waiting until the end of the questionnaire, and before going to question 2, it lectured me on the illiberality of stealing money from people's incomes, and effectively accused me of being illiberal on the basis of an answer I did not give to a question which I was not asked.

    But anyway, today is what would have been Bill Pertwee's 87th birthday. I remember this fact because today is my father's 87th birthday.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Andy_JS said:

    I'm impressed by Ed being a cricket fan at the age of seven. I didn't take any interest in the game until I was eleven.

    I have vague memories of the 1961 Ashes, I was only 5. Another 2 years on... I used to calculate averages the old fashioned way. I now realise my parents secretly encouraged me.

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    I have some great photos of my ancestors when they worked on the Highland railways many years ago. :) I just finally caught up with Three Men Go to Scotland series this week, it was excellent. Especially the Isle of Jura visit, its a shame that they missed a trip to Islay.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Let me look up this infantile phrase "conspiracy theorist" in my Devil's Dictionary...


    Oh yes, here we are:

    Conspiracy theorist: term of abuse; meaning "someone who is better informed than I am."

    I've just come up with one of my own:

    "Someone who will rely on the writings of a professor from Montana without checking them when they suit their world view but will forever question mainstream consensus opinion when it doesnt coincide with their prejudices."
    So you "checked" him, did you, and proved him wrong? Sorry, but that little nugget must be lost somewhere amongst the verbiage... Btw, what have you got against Montana? Ever been there? If not, why are you prejudiced against this man?

    Better tell this long-serving liberal German foreign minister that he's wrong, also. And prejudiced. And a conspiracy theorist.
    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/public/International Affairs/2012/88_6/88_6Interview.pdf

    And of course, these guys are prejudiced, non-mainstream, revisionists and conspiracy theorists.
    http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/1/74.short

    Roll on the glorious 12th. I fancy some grouse shooting. I'm getting bored with blasting the turkeys of PB...
    The Montana guy doesn't provide a primary source for the alleged Churchill quote in the Google Book snippet you quoted...
    He does. But just assume he got it from Stormfront, if it gives you an orgasm...
    What is it? The Sàturday sitting of the House of Commons?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    @RodCrosby:

    "Stürmer: He is supposed to have said.
    Genscher: Supposed? In all probability he did."

    Neither what you'd call primary sources, nor ringing endorsements.....
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Latest YouGov/The Sunday Times results 19th July - Con 32%, Lab 39%, LD 10%, UKIP 11%; APP -33
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov

    Leaders:well/badly{
    DC: -18 (+6)
    EdM: -35(0)
    NC: -51(+2)
    Coalition:-33(+4)
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Poor question from YouGov on cigarettes, asking whether people support "banning brightly coloured branding and packaging for cigarettes". Apart from the fact no packaging currently does have bright colours...
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Ouch! The public seem to have sussed Ed Miliband and decided Cameron is still the PM for them. Tricky for Labour after picking Brown last time, you need a heart of stone etc......
    Financier said:

    YouGov

    Leaders:well/badly{
    DC: -18 (+6)
    EdM: -35(0)
    NC: -51(+2)
    Coalition:-33(+4)

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    So Labour lead Cons on NHS by 29-19 (hardly an endorsement of either) and 31-21 on improving standards but 0nly 27-23 on sound finances/good value.

    From the high number of plague-on-both houses, I would tentatively suggest that is a modest plus for the blues (depending on what previous polling has found).
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,368
This discussion has been closed.