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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain remains totally split on BREXIT: 44% think it was righ

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain remains totally split on BREXIT: 44% think it was right and 44% think it was wrong

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    Fun times ahead
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,548
    2nd, like Labour in Copeland.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    Fascinating

    Just 20% tell YouGov that the government is doing at negotiating Britain's exit from the EU. 53% say badly.

    And my favourite

    5% of GE2015 UKIP voters say it was wrong to vote to leave the EU - YouGov
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Corbyn unable to convince voters of all ages that he can remove crown tops from bottles.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    edited January 2017
    Mr. Eagles, becoming more incredible that Corbyn could be there in 2020.

    But a part of me hopes he is, simply to see what the electoral impact is. He'd define the floor for Labour.

    Edited extra bit: should stress that it'd be far better for the country if we had a Leader of the Opposition who was more effective than a shield made of cheese.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    rottenborough said:

    2nd, like Labour in Copeland.

    Doubt it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    fpt bleedin' typical
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    "Whether we are successful outside the EU will have very little to do with negotiations with the EU. This is the biggest lie around."

    Abjecstates.

    Yes. arts.
    Excess househnot a fantastically sensible or pragmatic or successful political philosophy.
    I think that a strong economy must rest on a strong society, and that involves a high degree of democratic participation, and strongly-enforced laws that the people are invested in - the EU and its direction of travel is inimical to those aims.

    Concurrently, if we want a strong economy, I believe we're going to have to compete strongly, on tax and regulation. Again, that's totally against the EU's direction of travel. The whole point of the EU (with the exception of Germany, which seems to be gaming the system very well) is, and must be, massive wealth transfer between its richer and poorer parts.

    Being out of the EU does not sheild us from failure (nor does being in it), but it is an opportunity to succeed.

    Apart from Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohorts I really am not sure that the EU has figured in anyone's upper consciousness save for the odd straight banana story in the Daily Mail. More likely, as we have seen countless times, it has been something for UK politicians to blame when something has gone wrong, or where they have failed policy-wise. Do you think that the opportunity to blame the EU will increase or decrease once we leave? If they blame it when all is supposedly working in harmony (!), how much more do you think it will be blamed once there is any degree of discord, which there is bound to be with Brexit?

    You are saying that we should kick away the crutch of the EU and that in any case it is heading in a different direction to us. Fair enough; it was (I won't mention D***'s D**l).

    Nor do I think a strong society is incompatible with membership of the EU. Perhaps we all feel european as well as British. No different from our respective feelings during, say, the Six Nations. We all know where there have been problems with a cohesive, strong society over the past few years and that has had nothing to do with the EU.

    In short, as has been rehearsed very often and not just on here, I believe the EU vote was an attempt to wrest control back from an increasingly complex and unpredictable and unfair world, the catalyst being the GFC. I really do not see Brexit as addressing any of these factors which are, sadly perhaps, a part of life in the world today.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    @TSE

    20% predict doing well
    53% predict doing badly - as we haven't begun.

    Is this perverse good news - as when we begin to negotiate the govt. can highlight success, or just plain bad news as it will be perceived a failure regardless of content?

    It is odd how many people don't realise that negotiations are yet to commence, but have formed an opinion of the talks already.

    Nowt as strange as folk.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    rottenborough said:

    2nd, like Labour in Copeland.

    Labour will win Copeland regardless of Corbyn.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    SNP 51
    Con 25
    Lab 12 (!!)
    LD 6
    UKIP 4
    Grn 3

    Scottish local elections in May.

    12% could well see Scottish Labour lose two-thirds or more of their councillors, depending on how the STV played out. It's dangerously close to the cliff-edge threshold.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    On topic, and especially for those who bemoan our constant banging on about it here, it seems clear that Brexit is going nowhere as a national issue and I doubt it will for years.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    SNP 51
    Con 25
    Lab 12 (!!)
    LD 6
    UKIP 4
    Grn 3

    Scottish local elections in May.

    12% could well see Scottish Labour lose two-thirds or more of their councillors, depending on how the STV played out. It's dangerously close to the cliff-edge threshold.

    Well at least Labour can only lose Edinburgh South in Scotland.

    I assume even though it is tricky the Tories would have a real tilt at the seat if that was the polling come GE2020.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    The headline figures are almost exactly the same as the last YouGov before the referendum

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    SNP 51
    Con 25
    Lab 12 (!!)
    LD 6
    UKIP 4
    Grn 3

    Scottish local elections in May.

    12% could well see Scottish Labour lose two-thirds or more of their councillors, depending on how the STV played out. It's dangerously close to the cliff-edge threshold.

    I was chatting to someone over Christmas who proposed standing as a Tory in a "no hope" Labour ward, just to frighten them.

    I had to caution against it, just in case they got elected...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,251
    TOPPING said:



    Apart from Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohorts I really am not sure that the EU has figured in anyone's upper consciousness save for the odd straight banana story in the Daily Mail. More likely, as we have seen countless times, it has been something for UK politicians to blame when something has gone wrong, or where they have failed policy-wise. Do you think that the opportunity to blame the EU will increase or decrease once we leave? If they blame it when all is supposedly working in harmony (!), how much more do you think it will be blamed once there is any degree of discord, which there is bound to be with Brexit?

    You are saying that we should kick away the crutch of the EU and that in any case it is heading in a different direction to us. Fair enough; it was (I won't mention D***'s D**l).

    Nor do I think a strong society is incompatible with membership of the EU. Perhaps we all feel european as well as British. No different from our respective feelings during, say, the Six Nations. We all know where there have been problems with a cohesive, strong society over the past few years and that has had nothing to do with the EU.

    In short, as has been rehearsed very often and not just on here, I believe the EU vote was an attempt to wrest control back from an increasingly complex and unpredictable and unfair world, the catalyst being the GFC. I really do not see Brexit as addressing any of these factors which are, sadly perhaps, a part of life in the world today.

    It will obviously decrease - though actually I totally disagree with you about politician's tendency to blame the EU. Conversely, I believe that much (in most cases bad) legislation was passed on topics as wide-ranging as reservoirs and rail, based upon European directives, with as little reference as possible made about its EU origin. It is therefore hardly surprising that the EU hasn't loomed large in people's consciousness, but a large and growing cohort nevertheless grew to resent its usurpation of our country's sovereignty.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,761
    surbiton said:

    rottenborough said:

    2nd, like Labour in Copeland.

    Labour will win Copeland regardless of Corbyn.
    Agreed. That's where my money is.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TOPPING said:



    Apart from Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohorts I really am not sure that the EU has figured in anyone's upper consciousness save for the odd straight banana story in the Daily Mail. More likely, as we have seen countless times, it has been something for UK politicians to blame when something has gone wrong, or where they have failed policy-wise. Do you think that the opportunity to blame the EU will increase or decrease once we leave? If they blame it when all is supposedly working in harmony (!), how much more do you think it will be blamed once there is any degree of discord, which there is bound to be with Brexit?

    You are saying that we should kick away the crutch of the EU and that in any case it is heading in a different direction to us. Fair enough; it was (I won't mention D***'s D**l).

    Nor do I think a strong society is incompatible with membership of the EU. Perhaps we all feel european as well as British. No different from our respective feelings during, say, the Six Nations. We all know where there have been problems with a cohesive, strong society over the past few years and that has had nothing to do with the EU.

    In short, as has been rehearsed very often and not just on here, I believe the EU vote was an attempt to wrest control back from an increasingly complex and unpredictable and unfair world, the catalyst being the GFC. I really do not see Brexit as addressing any of these factors which are, sadly perhaps, a part of life in the world today.

    It will obviously decrease - though actually I totally disagree with you about politician's tendency to blame the EU. Conversely, I believe that much (in most cases bad) legislation was passed on topics as wide-ranging as reservoirs and rail, based upon European directives, with as little reference as possible made about its EU origin. It is therefore hardly surprising that the EU hasn't loomed large in people's consciousness, but a large and growing cohort nevertheless grew to resent its usurpation of our country's sovereignty.
    Not (only) because I am a geek like that, I would like you to point me to an EU directive which is bad and which conforms to the description you give. There is of course a lot of urban myth about EU legislation and I am always interested in concrete examples. Not trying to be smarty-pants, genuinely interested.

    (As a for instance, the whole VAT on home energy supplies history is an interesting one.)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "I was an avid supporter of the European Union from its inception. I regarded it as the embodiment of the idea of an open society: an association of democratic states willing to sacrifice part of their sovereignty for the common good.

    But then something went woefully wrong. After the Crash of 2008, a voluntary association of equals was transformed into a relationship between creditors and debtors, where the debtors had difficulties in meeting their obligations and the creditors set the conditions the debtors had to obey. That relationship has been neither voluntary nor equal.

    With economic growth lagging and the refugee crisis out of control, the EU is on the verge of breakdown and is set to undergo an experience similar to that of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. "

    https://www.georgesoros.com/essays/open-society-needs-defending/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,888
    TOPPING said:

    On topic, and especially for those who bemoan our constant banging on about it here, it seems clear that Brexit is going nowhere as a national issue and I doubt it will for years.

    Brexit has mobilised the people who actually care about the EU, and over time will force those who could previously ignore the myth busting to listen. It's inevitable that this will be the dominant debate in politics for years to come.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Predictions for Mike:

    [Tory / Labour] delete as appropriate party splits.

    After Article 50 is triggered the mechanism used is declared illegal by courts causing a constitutional crisis.

    Local elections in May see Labour poll an amazing 10% above their opinion poll level at the time - saving JC from any leadership challenge.

    Putin is not seen for 5 months, but illness is denied.

    Germany impose border controls along Southern and Eastern borders.

    EU refuses any compromise on free movement of people with the intention of this leading to a hard Brexit.

    Europe (location irrelevant) has its worst terrorist atrocity during the German election campaign.

    Paul Nutall resigns as UKIP leader.

    During Article 50 negotiations Poland threatens to hold an in out referendum, causing the EU to harden the position they hold to discourage others following our lead.

    There is no cabinet reshuffle during the year - only direct replacements for ministers who resign / are sacked.

    Prince Harry gets engaged

    PB.com gets it quote button back
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    edited January 2017
    isam said:

    "I was an avid supporter of the European Union from its inception. I regarded it as the embodiment of the idea of an open society: an association of democratic states willing to sacrifice part of their sovereignty for the common good.

    But then something went woefully wrong. After the Crash of 2008, a voluntary association of equals was transformed into a relationship between creditors and debtors, where the debtors had difficulties in meeting their obligations and the creditors set the conditions the debtors had to obey. That relationship has been neither voluntary nor equal.

    With economic growth lagging and the refugee crisis out of control, the EU is on the verge of breakdown and is set to undergo an experience similar to that of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. "

    https://www.georgesoros.com/essays/open-society-needs-defending/

    QED my earlier post.

    People blame the EU for (in this instance the aftermath of) the GFC.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    williamglenn said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic, and especially for those who bemoan our constant banging on about it here, it seems clear that Brexit is going nowhere as a national issue and I doubt it will for years.

    Brexit has mobilised the people who actually care about the EU, and over time will force those who could previously ignore the myth busting to listen. It's inevitable that this will be the dominant debate in politics for years to come.
    Well I think the debate has moved on from straight bananas to the value of free trade deals and customs unions and related matters, and that is surely a good thing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Copeland odds

    1.91 Tories
    2.71 Labour
    10.5 UKIP

    Extraordinary !
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    FPT I can't bear more Brexit - the dog that found the stolen WCup just before 1966 event

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r8k5DmDkNQ
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,888
    edited January 2017
    TOPPING said:

    williamglenn said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic, and especially for those who bemoan our constant banging on about it here, it seems clear that Brexit is going nowhere as a national issue and I doubt it will for years.

    Brexit has mobilised the people who actually care about the EU, and over time will force those who could previously ignore the myth busting to listen. It's inevitable that this will be the dominant debate in politics for years to come.
    Well I think the debate has moved on from straight bananas to the value of free trade deals and customs unions and related matters, and that is surely a good thing.
    Yes, I think that by necessity we will now have to examine some really big questions in a much more searching way than we have done for a couple of decades. In this respect I think the outcome of the referendum should end up being much more satisfactory we would have had following a narrow Remain win which would have given carte blanche to the wreckers and complainers.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    PlatoSaid said:

    FPT I can't bear more Brexit

    A Brexiteer speaks...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former head of strategy and a leave supporter during the EU referendum, has accused Theresa May of adopting a closed, “mean-spirited” approach to Brexit. Speaking on the Word at One, he said that he and others in the Vote Leave campaign called for an “open Brexit”. But the government has taken the opposite approach, he claimed, citing as an example the Conservative conference proposals (since abandoned) for firms to have to record the number of foreigners they employ. Hilton said:

    What I worry about is that the tone that Theresa May has set so far is exactly the opposite of that [“open Brexit”], exactly what we don’t need; a kind of closed Brexit, a mean-spirited, narrow version of what leaving the EU should have been all about ...

    What Theresa May is doing, certainly again in the tone that she and her ministers have struck, is to give the impression that the UK is pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being open to the world, being closed to people. That is bad for our economy and our society.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/03/corbyn-labour-fabian-society-report-saying-labour-needs-pact-with-other-parties-to-win-election-politics-live?page=with:block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f#block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    The leading article is a bit misleading, in that the poll is of 2015 Labour voters, a chunk of whom have stopped being Labour voters because they don't like Corbyn. It's double counting to say that they are Labour voters who don't rate him, and I doubt if the figures for current Labour voters are the same.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    Totally unbelievable prediction.
    ("PB.com gets it quote button back")
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former head of strategy and a leave supporter during the EU referendum, has accused Theresa May of adopting a closed, “mean-spirited” approach to Brexit. Speaking on the Word at One, he said that he and others in the Vote Leave campaign called for an “open Brexit”. But the government has taken the opposite approach, he claimed, citing as an example the Conservative conference proposals (since abandoned) for firms to have to record the number of foreigners they employ. Hilton said:

    What I worry about is that the tone that Theresa May has set so far is exactly the opposite of that [“open Brexit”], exactly what we don’t need; a kind of closed Brexit, a mean-spirited, narrow version of what leaving the EU should have been all about ...

    What Theresa May is doing, certainly again in the tone that she and her ministers have struck, is to give the impression that the UK is pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being open to the world, being closed to people. That is bad for our economy and our society.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/03/corbyn-labour-fabian-society-report-saying-labour-needs-pact-with-other-parties-to-win-election-politics-live?page=with:block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f#block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f

    The stupidity of these people is staggering.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    "I was an avid supporter of the European Union from its inception. I regarded it as the embodiment of the idea of an open society: an association of democratic states willing to sacrifice part of their sovereignty for the common good.

    But then something went woefully wrong. After the Crash of 2008, a voluntary association of equals was transformed into a relationship between creditors and debtors, where the debtors had difficulties in meeting their obligations and the creditors set the conditions the debtors had to obey. That relationship has been neither voluntary nor equal.

    With economic growth lagging and the refugee crisis out of control, the EU is on the verge of breakdown and is set to undergo an experience similar to that of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. "

    https://www.georgesoros.com/essays/open-society-needs-defending/

    QED my earlier post.

    People blame the EU for (in this instance the aftermath of) the GFC.
    Not just the EU, but any political leader who denies the possibility of something for nothing.

  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    Seven of those show leads for right, one shows a lead for wrong, the last is a tie. So not totally split.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    JonathanD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former head of strategy and a leave supporter during the EU referendum, has accused Theresa May of adopting a closed, “mean-spirited” approach to Brexit. Speaking on the Word at One, he said that he and others in the Vote Leave campaign called for an “open Brexit”. But the government has taken the opposite approach, he claimed, citing as an example the Conservative conference proposals (since abandoned) for firms to have to record the number of foreigners they employ. Hilton said:

    What I worry about is that the tone that Theresa May has set so far is exactly the opposite of that [“open Brexit”], exactly what we don’t need; a kind of closed Brexit, a mean-spirited, narrow version of what leaving the EU should have been all about ...

    What Theresa May is doing, certainly again in the tone that she and her ministers have struck, is to give the impression that the UK is pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being open to the world, being closed to people. That is bad for our economy and our society.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/03/corbyn-labour-fabian-society-report-saying-labour-needs-pact-with-other-parties-to-win-election-politics-live?page=with:block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f#block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f

    The stupidity of these people is staggering.
    The likes of Hilton and Hannan complaining about the mean spirited Brexit plan whilst oblivious to the fact that the Vote Leave campaign was mean spirited and obsessive about immigration would be amusing if the results weren't so serious.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    JonathanD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former head of strategy and a leave supporter during the EU referendum, has accused Theresa May of adopting a closed, “mean-spirited” approach to Brexit. Speaking on the Word at One, he said that he and others in the Vote Leave campaign called for an “open Brexit”. But the government has taken the opposite approach, he claimed, citing as an example the Conservative conference proposals (since abandoned) for firms to have to record the number of foreigners they employ. Hilton said:

    What I worry about is that the tone that Theresa May has set so far is exactly the opposite of that [“open Brexit”], exactly what we don’t need; a kind of closed Brexit, a mean-spirited, narrow version of what leaving the EU should have been all about ...

    What Theresa May is doing, certainly again in the tone that she and her ministers have struck, is to give the impression that the UK is pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being open to the world, being closed to people. That is bad for our economy and our society.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/03/corbyn-labour-fabian-society-report-saying-labour-needs-pact-with-other-parties-to-win-election-politics-live?page=with:block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f#block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f

    The stupidity of these people is staggering.
    Hilton is living in La-la land.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    NickPalmer said:

    The leading article is a bit misleading, in that the poll is of 2015 Labour voters, a chunk of whom have stopped being Labour voters because they don't like Corbyn. It's double counting to say that they are Labour voters who don't rate him, and I doubt if the figures for current Labour voters are the same.

    Congratulations on finding a straw you could clutch.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/03/no-pessimistic-mandarins-like-sir-ivan-rogers-send-brexit-dynamo/

    "Sir Ivan’s departure should be a cause for celebration rather than grief. The Government now has the opportunity to appoint someone who actually believes in the cause of Brexit. Sir Ivan was exactly the wrong man to lead the negotiations for our withdrawal from the EU.
    "
    A true Europhile, he has never shown the slightest understanding of the British people’s scepticism towards the EU. Much of his civil service career has been spent in league with the Brussels bureaucracy or its advocates in Britain."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,251
    TOPPING said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TOPPING said:



    Apart from Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohorts I really am not sure that the EU has figured in anyone's upper consciousness save for the odd straight banana story in the Daily Mail. More likely, as we have seen countless times, it has been something for UK politicians to blame when something has gone wrong, or where they have failed policy-wise. Do you think that the opportunity to blame the EU will increase or decrease once we leave? If they blame it when all is supposedly working in harmony (!), how much more do you think it will be blamed once there is any degree of discord, which there is bound to be with Brexit?

    You are saying that we should kick away the crutch of the EU and that in any case it is heading in a different direction to us. Fair enough; it was (I won't mention D***'s D**l).

    Nor do I think a strong society is incompatible with membership of the EU. Perhaps we all feel european as well as British. No different from our respective feelings during, say, the Six Nations. We all know where there have been problems with a cohesive, strong society over the past few years and that has had nothing to do with the EU.

    In short, as has been rehearsed very often and not just on here, I believe the EU vote was an attempt to wrest control back from an increasingly complex and unpredictable and unfair world, the catalyst being the GFC. I really do not see Brexit as addressing any of these factors which are, sadly perhaps, a part of life in the world today.

    It will obviously decrease - though actually I totally disagree with you about politician's tendency to blame the EU. Conversely, I believe that much (in most cases bad) legislation was passed on topics as wide-ranging as reservoirs and rail, based upon European directives, with as little reference as possible made about its EU origin. It is therefore hardly surprising that the EU hasn't loomed large in people's consciousness, but a large and growing cohort nevertheless grew to resent its usurpation of our country's sovereignty.
    Not (only) because I am a geek like that, I would like you to point me to an EU directive which is bad and which conforms to the description you give. There is of course a lot of urban myth about EU legislation and I am always interested in concrete examples. Not trying to be smarty-pants, genuinely interested.

    (As a for instance, the whole VAT on home energy supplies history is an interesting one.)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9261122/Keeping-the-country-short-of-water-is-now-government-and-EU-policy.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    La-la-land? Surely California?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TOPPING said:



    Apart from Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cohorts I really am not sure that the EU has figured in anyone's upper consciousness save for the odd straight banana story in the Daily Mail. More likely, as we have seen countless times, it has been something for UK politicians to blame when something has gone wrong, or where they have failed policy-wise. Do you think that the opportunity to blame the EU will increase or decrease once we leave? If they blame it when all is supposedly working in harmony (!), how much more do you think it will be blamed once there is any degree of discord, which there is bound to be with Brexit?

    You are saying that we should kick away the crutch of the EU and that in any case it is heading in a different direction to us. Fair enough; it was (I won't mention D***'s D**l).

    Nor do I think a strong society is incompatible with membership of the EU. Perhaps we all feel european as well as British. No different from our respective feelings during, say, the Six Nations. We all know where there have been problems with a cohesive, strong society over the past few years and that has had nothing to do with the EU.

    In short, as has been rehearsed very often and not just on here, I believe the EU vote was an attempt to wrest control back from an increasingly complex and unpredictable and unfair world, the catalyst being the GFC. I really do not see Brexit as addressing any of these factors which are, sadly perhaps, a part of life in the world today.

    It will obviously decrease - though actually I totally disagree with you about politician's tendency to blame the EU. Conversely, I believe that much (in most cases bad) legislation was passed on topics as wide-ranging as reservoirs and rail, based upon European directives, with as little reference as possible made about its EU origin. It is therefore hardly surprising that the EU hasn't loomed large in people's consciousness, but a large and growing cohort nevertheless grew to resent its usurpation of our country's sovereignty.
    Not (only) because I am a geek like that, I would like you to point me to an EU directive which is bad and which conforms to the description you give. There is of course a lot of urban myth about EU legislation and I am always interested in concrete examples. Not trying to be smarty-pants, genuinely interested.

    (As a for instance, the whole VAT on home energy supplies history is an interesting one.)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9261122/Keeping-the-country-short-of-water-is-now-government-and-EU-policy.html
    Excellent thanks. I will take a look. Am off now for a bit but I'll be sure to get back to you!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    @Morris_Dancer He is even further removed from the average Brexit voter than Osborne was...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s former head of strategy and a leave supporter during the EU referendum, has accused Theresa May of adopting a closed, “mean-spirited” approach to Brexit. Speaking on the Word at One, he said that he and others in the Vote Leave campaign called for an “open Brexit”. But the government has taken the opposite approach, he claimed, citing as an example the Conservative conference proposals (since abandoned) for firms to have to record the number of foreigners they employ. Hilton said:

    What I worry about is that the tone that Theresa May has set so far is exactly the opposite of that [“open Brexit”], exactly what we don’t need; a kind of closed Brexit, a mean-spirited, narrow version of what leaving the EU should have been all about ...

    What Theresa May is doing, certainly again in the tone that she and her ministers have struck, is to give the impression that the UK is pulling up the drawbridge, and instead of being open to the world, being closed to people. That is bad for our economy and our society.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/03/corbyn-labour-fabian-society-report-saying-labour-needs-pact-with-other-parties-to-win-election-politics-live?page=with:block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f#block-586bcffbe4b0a43edaa20d9f

    The stupidity of these people is staggering.
    Hilton is living in La-la land.
    Don't be silly, Steve Hilton proposed developing cloud bursting technology to ensure the UK had more sunshine, nobody who could come up with such a brilliant idea can be accused of living in La-La Land
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    SNP 51
    Con 25
    Lab 12 (!!)
    LD 6
    UKIP 4
    Grn 3

    Scottish local elections in May.

    12% could well see Scottish Labour lose two-thirds or more of their councillors, depending on how the STV played out. It's dangerously close to the cliff-edge threshold.

    It will be up and over the cliff in vast tracts of the country, even if they hold on with minority representation in some of the post industrial west. This is what happened to the Tories the last time. STV is very definitely not PR in practice. Is there a market for the Tories having twice as many councillors as Labour in Scotland?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    @Morris_Dancer Posts: 30,942
    5:29PM
    La-la-land? Surely California?


    Is that Calalalifornia?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    Scott_P said:

    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    SNP 51
    Con 25
    Lab 12 (!!)
    LD 6
    UKIP 4
    Grn 3

    Scottish local elections in May.

    12% could well see Scottish Labour lose two-thirds or more of their councillors, depending on how the STV played out. It's dangerously close to the cliff-edge threshold.

    I was chatting to someone over Christmas who proposed standing as a Tory in a "no hope" Labour ward, just to frighten them.

    I had to caution against it, just in case they got elected...
    I understand that some of the last batch of "paper candidates" are now busy in Holyrood. The extent of Labour's collapse up here is truly astonishing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,888
    edited January 2017
    philiph said:

    @Morris_Dancer Posts: 30,942
    5:29PM
    La-la-land? Surely California?

    Is that Calalalifornia?

    I presume Hilton is backing Calexit? - http://www.yescalifornia.org/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    NickPalmer said:

    The leading article is a bit misleading, in that the poll is of 2015 Labour voters, a chunk of whom have stopped being Labour voters because they don't like Corbyn. It's double counting to say that they are Labour voters who don't rate him, and I doubt if the figures for current Labour voters are the same.

    Congratulations on finding a straw you could clutch.
    He has a point there though, although 100% of nothing is nothing
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    I suspect that 90% would probably like to reply, "fuck off and stop asking us about Brexit".

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    isam said:

    He has a point there though, although 100% of nothing is nothing

    It's certainly an important point for anyone thinking of betting on a Corbyn defenestration.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    isam said:

    He has a point there though, although 100% of nothing is nothing

    It's certainly an important point for anyone thinking of betting on a Corbyn defenestration.
    Yes I think it's a good spot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    MI, PA, WI, IA and MN could all fall to the GOP on a long term basis if Trump is successful, even with his less than liberal social policies.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited January 2017
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    It is the Democrat's greatest fear; that Trump will do what they always promised but never really wanted to deliver.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    BBC News - Civil servant leaves early. Surrender now!

    I'm grateful that I'm normally at work at this time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Incidentally, Milo's book won't be published by S&S in the UK. I'm intrigued by the outrage of Milo Yiannopoulous' book, but not that of the multi-coloured bullshit fountain Camila Batmanghelidjh.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    Farage for EU ambassador? :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    TSE That would be the same Steve Hilton Cameron disinvited from his birthday party, given he was part of a Leave campaign which played so heavily over fears on immigration what exactly did he expect would happen after Leave won?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,265
    chestnut said:

    I suspect that 90% would probably like to reply, "fuck off and stop asking us about Brexit".

    1 person in a 100 going "OK, if it'll make you happy, yes, I'll change my vote to Remain. Now please - just STFU about Brexit!"

    It's about as relevent as polling asking "Do you regret your O level choices?"

    What they really ought to ask is "If Brexit goes ahead, will you join an armed insurrection to give power back to Brussels?"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    MaxPB Arizona and Texas are now closer targets for the Democrats than Iowa. While the Michigan jobs news is a boost for Trump you need to see what he had promised in return while I doubt his deregulation of Wall Street will go down so well with blue collar workers if they do not see their wages rise as well
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    Hillary got 2 million more votes and somehow the Republicans have a structural disadvantage?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB Arizona and Texas are now closer targets for the Democrats than Iowa. While the Michigan jobs news is a boost for Trump you need to see what he had promised in return while I doubt his deregulation of Wall Street will go down so well with blue collar workers if they do not see their wages rise as well

    Let's see how that changes when Trump forces through voter ID laws.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,265
    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    Which, surely, is everybody here?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    MarqueeMark said:

    david_herdson said:

    For those watching Scottish subsamples,

    Which, surely, is everybody here?
    Second only to watching out for AV threads.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    MI, PA, WI, IA and MN could all fall to the GOP on a long term basis if Trump is successful, even with his less than liberal social policies.
    Ultimately: who knows?

    The big issue, though, is that even if manufacturing remains in those places, it won't employ many people. There will be a few rich engineers who tend the machines, and the same levels of blue collar unemployment. Fort Dearborn will never employ 110,000 people again. It's at 6,000 today, and it's going to under 4,000.

    Maintaining production levels and maintaining employment levels are two very different things. I think Trump might help with the first, but he'll struggle with the second.

    It is worth remembering that, since the US joined NAFTA, it is one of only two G7 countries to increase its auto production. It's not been Mexico that's been hammering Detroit, it's competition from plants that aren't around the Great Lakes.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    MI, PA, WI, IA and MN could all fall to the GOP on a long term basis if Trump is successful, even with his less than liberal social policies.
    Ultimately: who knows?

    The big issue, though, is that even if manufacturing remains in those places, it won't employ many people. There will be a few rich engineers who tend the machines, and the same levels of blue collar unemployment. Fort Dearborn will never employ 110,000 people again. It's at 6,000 today, and it's going to under 4,000.

    Maintaining production levels and maintaining employment levels are two very different things. I think Trump might help with the first, but he'll struggle with the second.

    It is worth remembering that, since the US joined NAFTA, it is one of only two G7 countries to increase its auto production. It's not been Mexico that's been hammering Detroit, it's competition from plants that aren't around the Great Lakes.
    Absolutely correct. I know one or two things about auto plants as I sell sensors and networking solutions for automation.

    What has greatly reduced employment in [ and indeed help survive ] auto plants in developed countries are not immigrants but automation and robotics. Even second tier countries like Brazil, Malaysia etc. use it hugely as do countries like India.

    RCS is correct that jobs that have been lost in MI have been to SC, AL etc. and not so many to Mexico but robots and automation has been the main reason.

    Otherwise, today they would all be shut.
  • partypoliticalorphanpartypoliticalorphan Posts: 374
    Interesting to see two victories for the power of Trump's bully pulpit aka Twitter account today. Ford's announcement on car production in Michigan rather than Mexico and the rapid reversal of Republican congress plans on ethics watchdog.

    I don't like this style of doing business but in early signs it seems to be effective.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    partypoliticalorphan said:

    Interesting to see two victories for the power of Trump's bully pulpit aka Twitter account today. Ford's announcement on car production in Michigan rather than Mexico and the rapid reversal of Republican congress plans on ethics watchdog.

    I don't like this style of doing business but in early signs it seems to be effective.

    For sure he is going to shake things up, will be some serious butt kicking during his time in office, and some golden opportunities for his pals.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited January 2017
    surbiton said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    MI, PA, WI, IA and MN could all fall to the GOP on a long term basis if Trump is successful, even with his less than liberal social policies.
    Ultimately: who knows?

    The big issue, though, is that even if manufacturing remains in those places, it won't employ many people. There will be a few rich engineers who tend the machines, and the same levels of blue collar unemployment. Fort Dearborn will never employ 110,000 people again. It's at 6,000 today, and it's going to under 4,000.

    Maintaining production levels and maintaining employment levels are two very different things. I think Trump might help with the first, but he'll struggle with the second.

    It is worth remembering that, since the US joined NAFTA, it is one of only two G7 countries to increase its auto production. It's not been Mexico that's been hammering Detroit, it's competition from plants that aren't around the Great Lakes.
    Absolutely correct. I know one or two things about auto plants as I sell sensors and networking solutions for automation.

    What has greatly reduced employment in [ and indeed help survive ] auto plants in developed countries are not immigrants but automation and robotics. Even second tier countries like Brazil, Malaysia etc. use it hugely as do countries like India.

    RCS is correct that jobs that have been lost in MI have been to SC, AL etc. and not so many to Mexico but robots and automation has been the main reason.

    Otherwise, today they would all be shut.
    Yep. I read this a few weeks ago on Trump's carrier deal: http://uk.businessinsider.com/united-tech-ceo-says-trump-deal-will-lead-to-more-automation-fewer-jobs-2016-12

    Also, this: https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,548
    Day One of 2017 Politics and things are brewing and fomenting nicely:

    http://reaction.life/civil-service-revolting-will-sir-jeremy-heywood-next/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    RFID, I guess?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    I don't know how it will work in practice, RFID scanning is a given, but authorisation will be the problem. Maybe iris scanning attached to an NFC authorisation tag? The concept they showed looked very interesting, but not practical for real life.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    RFID, I guess?
    It's a combination of RFID and a few other sensors. Currently their only store is open to Amazon employees in Seattle, but apparently it works pretty flawlessly.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    Sounds like a bit like Tesco's 'scan as you shop'

    http://www.tesco.com/scan-as-you-shop/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    RFID, I guess?
    It's a combination of RFID and a few other sensors. Currently their only store is open to Amazon employees in Seattle, but apparently it works pretty flawlessly.
    Everything works flawlessly until it doesn't ;)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/03/ford-canceling-plans-for-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-investing-700-million-in-michigan-expansion-instead.html

    The Trump effect in action. Mexico already paying for the wall.

    That decision alone must have Obama chewing the carpet with frustration.
    A liberal forum I saw the news on were chewing on bees. Much like remainers here they want their country to fail rather than for Trump to succeed in reshoring jobs.
    Is Michigan going to be winnable for a Democrat next time around? Its a serious problem for them if its not. Trump has the capacity to reshape the Presidential map and remove the structural disadvantage republicans seemed to have in recent times.
    MI, PA, WI, IA and MN could all fall to the GOP on a long term basis if Trump is successful, even with his less than liberal social policies.
    Ultimately: who knows?

    The big issue, though, is that even if manufacturing remains in those places, it won't employ many people. There will be a few rich engineers who tend the machines, and the same levels of blue collar unemployment. Fort Dearborn will never employ 110,000 people again. It's at 6,000 today, and it's going to under 4,000.

    Maintaining production levels and maintaining employment levels are two very different things. I think Trump might help with the first, but he'll struggle with the second.

    It is worth remembering that, since the US joined NAFTA, it is one of only two G7 countries to increase its auto production. It's not been Mexico that's been hammering Detroit, it's competition from plants that aren't around the Great Lakes.
    I don't disagree, but the optics of Ford, a company that Trump singled out in the election, cancelling investment in Mexico and investing in Michigan is going to win him a lot of support. Especially within the GOP who have been sceptical of his mid-western strategy from the start.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    Sounds like a bit like Tesco's 'scan as you shop'

    http://www.tesco.com/scan-as-you-shop/
    No, there's no scanning. It's all entirely automated. You simply put products in the bag you brought.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,377
    rcs1000 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    Sounds like a bit like Tesco's 'scan as you shop'

    http://www.tesco.com/scan-as-you-shop/
    No, there's no scanning. It's all entirely automated. You simply put products in the bag you brought.
    Sounds like witchcraft to me.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    Amazon Go

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmMk1Myrxc
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,912
    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    All of us, no matter what our political persuasion*, hope that Donald Trump is a success, because a world where America is failing is not a happy place.

    * There are exceptions, obviously.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    RFID, I guess?
    It's a combination of RFID and a few other sensors. Currently their only store is open to Amazon employees in Seattle, but apparently it works pretty flawlessly.
    Everything works flawlessly until it doesn't ;)
    Unexpected item in trolley area?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    Like I said, I don't see it. Saying that, the volume of anti-Trump posting has gone down significantly post Nov 8th (our dear 619), so maybe that has muddied the waters a bit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    MaxPB It was not just Hispanics (whose share of the population will continue to grow wall or no wall), a number of Western voters who voted for Romney in 2012 voted for Hillary or voted Libertarian in 2016
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    edited January 2017
    matt said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, has anyone been following the "Amazon Go" concept? It's a grocery store which uses advanced sensors so you literally just back your trolley (or your bag), and you automatically get billed. Because labour is 35-40% of grocery stores non-product costs this has the fantastic ability to (a) increase Amazon's profits, (b) lower the cost of (and time required to) grocery shop, and (c) eliminate millions of low wage jobs.

    It will be interesting to see how Trump responds to this. (He is not a big Amazon fan generally.)

    RFID, I guess?
    It's a combination of RFID and a few other sensors. Currently their only store is open to Amazon employees in Seattle, but apparently it works pretty flawlessly.
    Everything works flawlessly until it doesn't ;)
    Unexpected item in trolley area?
    Or if the tag on the trolley fails, unexpected trolley in item area. :D
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    edited January 2017
    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    As always your simpleton nature mistakes interest for support. It's very interesting to see how Trump is bullying US companies into staying in the US, whether or not it will prove to be a sustainable strategy remains to be seen. It has implications for the UK as well which is home to several US banks which carry out significant amounts of Eurodollar trade, Trump may look to bully them into coming home as well, especially if Brexit makes trading conditions here less favourable in the short term.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    rcs1000 said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    All of us, no matter what our political persuasion*, hope that Donald Trump is a success, because a world where America is failing is not a happy place.

    * There are exceptions, obviously.
    I'm sure lots of Democrats in America hope that he isn't a total disaster as well, but that doesn't mean they are cheering him on like the hardcore Trumpsters.

    Then there's what 'success' looks like to Trump/GOP and what others may see as success. I'm sure overturning Rode v Wade is something that Trump and the GOP will see as a success, but I wouldn't agree as someone who is pro-choice, for example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    Surbion Longer term it is ideas like a universal basic income and retraining that are the answer to automation
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    HYUFD said:

    Surbion Longer term it is ideas like a universal basic income and retraining that are the answer to automation

    I'm slowly being convinced by a universal basic income. The administrative savings alone probably make it worthwhile!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    rcs1000 said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    All of us, no matter what our political persuasion*, hope that Donald Trump is a success, because a world where America is failing is not a happy place.

    * There are exceptions, obviously.
    In addition a lot of people, left and right, are waiting to see if Trump can indeed revive US heavy industry in the face of Chinese subsidies undercutting US corporations. I think China loses a lot more in the short term if Trump takes action, a super producer needs a super consumer. Americans will be just as happy buying crap TVs made in Vietnam or Cambodia as they are buying crap TVs made in China right now. China won't be happy to see the jobs move elsewhere.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    MaxPB said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    As always your simpleton nature mistakes interest for support. It's very interesting to see how Trump is bullying US companies into staying in the US, whether or not it will prove to be a sustainable strategy remains to be seen. It has implications for the UK as well which is home to several US banks which carry out significant amounts of Eurodollar trade, Trump may look to bully them into coming home as well, especially if Brexit makes trading conditions here less favourable in the short term.
    You've no business to be talking about anyone having a simpleton nature given that you've made the leap that production = jobs in regard to Trump's deals.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,321
    The_Apocalypse said:

    MaxPB said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    RobD said:

    The_Apocalypse said:

    Odd how so many PB Tories - especially the ones that used to love Cameron (TSE excepted) have turned into Trump's biggest supporters since November 8th.

    Of course Trump is being discussed, he's about to become President. In terms of support, I haven't seen the same huge shift in opinion since the election.
    I'm not complaining about Trump being discussed - he's the leader of the free world after all. I'm observing how many PBers have done a 'Paul Ryan' and gone from being critical of Trump during the campaign, to very supportive post November 8th.
    As always your simpleton nature mistakes interest for support. It's very interesting to see how Trump is bullying US companies into staying in the US, whether or not it will prove to be a sustainable strategy remains to be seen. It has implications for the UK as well which is home to several US banks which carry out significant amounts of Eurodollar trade, Trump may look to bully them into coming home as well, especially if Brexit makes trading conditions here less favourable in the short term.
    You've no business to be talking about anyone having a simpleton nature given that you've made the leap that production = jobs in regard to Trump's deals.
    In the short term it will mean jobs, and for Trump the short term is really all that matters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    edited January 2017
    RobD Yes, despite generally being centre right in persuasion I think a universal basic income may be inevitable and beneficial, both saving in welfare costs and dealing with potentially more flexible working hours if automation continues to expand
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,694
    edited January 2017
    MaxPB Maybe but Chinese investors can look elsewhere too, perhaps even to London
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Britain has a consensus about something: Britain has got unhappier, more divided and more racist over the last year.

    ‪ http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-britain-sky-data-poll-reveals-a-nation-divided-10713985‬
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Why ARE the 'winners' such a bunch of whining babies?

    https://twitter.com/mrharrycole/status/816360705351942145
This discussion has been closed.