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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    What is most amusing is that @OwenJones84 blocks everyone who dissents from his view. As does Eoin Clarke - it's a very comfy echo chamber of the far left hugging each other over there.
    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    I mean, honestly, seriously, I just can't believe this - is he 14?


    Owen Jones‏@OwenJones842m
    Well done everyone: #iloveournhs right at the top of UK trends. A slap in the face for all who want to destroy it.

    Twitter campaigns have their uses, trust me.

    However, I think this person is an idiot.
    I think the phrase is "circle jerk"
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Plato said:

    ...excellent services cost less than bad ones because they do not have to pay for treating avoidable complications.

    Does that mean there are fewer jobs for Unite members?

    Ah.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @RobD

    I gather he's called Sir Nutalot - here are others - quite brilliant Photoshopping.

    http://www.92pixels.com/29-awesome-armored-animals-manipulations/
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    Mike OGH Off Topic. How about a week over the summer recess devoted to Scottish politics?
    Topics such as
    1. Forecast for the outcome of the Y/N referendum.
    2. What will happen to the Labour MPs if Scotland votes Yes?
    3. What will happen to the Labour MPs if Scotland votes No?
    4. The forecasts for the Lib Dems at the next GE in Scotland (inc retirements) if Scotland votes No?
    5. The forecasts for the Conservatives at the next GE in Scotland if Scotland votes No?
    6. Forecast outcome of the MEP and % vote share in Scotland at the EC elections.

    Maybe have all the articles written by our SNP PB people, coming from their view of the future?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    "Ronald Macdonald, Adam Smith Professor of Political Economy at Glasgow University, said the comparison with the Isle of Man indicated that the Scottish Government had “rather lost the plot in terms of the currency debate”.

    He added: “The Isle of Man is clearly a much smaller and differently structured economy than that of Scotland and to suggest that just because sterlingisation works well there means it would work well in Scotland is without empirical foundation.”"

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/415308/Alex-Salmond-loses-plot-with-Manx-economy-plan

    "Without empirical foundation". Trans "daft".

    Another dumpling spouting bollox. If he bothered to look it was a comparison with many things and he specifically stated he was not advocating that SCotland would have currency similar to IoM. He used the IoM to point out that the unionists were talking bollox , given the IoM used the pound and had AAA rating. Getting a tame unionist to come out and say its wrong does not help their cause in any way. Just as suggesting it would not work without empirical foundation is a load of unionist bollox as are barbed wire at the borders , family being foreigners, higher roaming charges , not being allowed to travel over or through England , and on and on and on.................
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    Faisal Islam tweets : "Chote: North Sea Oil receipts to fall from 0.4% of GDP to 0.03% by 2040. One for Alex Salmond?"

    UK bankrupt by 2020, cannot afford to pay benefits bill, one for Cameron

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Mike OGH Off Topic. How about a week over the summer recess devoted to Scottish politics?
    Topics such as
    1. Forecast for the outcome of the Y/N referendum.
    2. What will happen to the Labour MPs if Scotland votes Yes?
    3. What will happen to the Labour MPs if Scotland votes No?
    4. The forecasts for the Lib Dems at the next GE in Scotland (inc retirements) if Scotland votes No?
    5. The forecasts for the Conservatives at the next GE in Scotland if Scotland votes No?
    6. Forecast outcome of the MEP and % vote share in Scotland at the EC elections.

    Maybe have all the articles written by our SNP PB people, coming from their view of the future?

    We'd need to get our Nats back on line and away from collecting red cards, self imposed bans, sulking and saying they want to be alone. On PB you don't actually have to argue to get the Nats taken off line bizarrely they do it for you and call the resulting silence building the case for independence.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    ConHome has great shots of the Mail's inside pages re the NHS

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2013/07/the-daily-mail.html
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    MG..You have obviously missed a lot..Got any policies you want to debate or are you happy just to sling insults in a Southerly direction..Hey ho, nothing changes

    Why would I debate policies, you got any UK government policies that you can show are beneficial for Scotland, I will not hold my breath whilst waiting

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Financier

    'Are we getting to the hard core of "unemployed and unemployable" due to their lack of skill sets and lack of education? '

    Any data on job vacancies in Toxteth for redundant Cheshire farmers?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Heathrow's proposal in full:

    http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1613&SizeId=-1

    The likes of antifrank, myself and SeanT are giddy right now guys...
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    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    One wonders whether the term "political football" was used when crafting the "24 hours to save the NHS" slogan...
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Jim Reed is in panic mode here - I'm not sure even the choir will quite agree with him. Still Dr Eoin Clarke approves wholeheartedly with him. http://labourlist.org/2013/07/the-anatomy-of-a-lie-camerons-nhs-smear-campaign-exposed/

    "Sadly for les incompetents in the Tory briefing machine, the week prior to the publication of the Keogh Review proved to be rather uncomfortable. First, a shame-faced Secretary of State shook at the dispatch box as he tried to sneak out ward closures, including the A&E at Trafford General Hospital – the birthplace of the NHS – without telling any of the local MPs affected. The ineffective Jeremy Hunt was giving a ‘doing’ as his mendacity was exposed.

    No sooner had the sound of barnacle scraping stopped before, on the following day, a U-turn was announced to the Commons on the government’s proposed plain cigarette packaging proposals. In a series of tweets, popular Tory MP Sarah Wollaston wrote: ‘What a tragic waste of an opportunity. ‘Barnacles scraped off the boat’ AKA more lives ruined for political expediency…R.I.P. Public Health. A day of shame for this government; the only big winners big tobacco, big alcohol and big undertakers.’ Quite the tawdry mess..."
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    I'm sitting here waiting for the Mori poll to see if their reputation is about to be shot at too......

    My laying Labour on Betfair is coming along nicely. Stand up for Yvette!
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    I would actually like to read the opinions of the SNP folk about Scottish political elections.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:

    Jim Reed is in panic mode here - I'm not sure even the choir will quite agree with him. Still Dr Eoin Clarke approves wholeheartedly with him. http://labourlist.org/2013/07/the-anatomy-of-a-lie-camerons-nhs-smear-campaign-exposed/

    "Sadly for les incompetents in the Tory briefing machine, the week prior to the publication of the Keogh Review proved to be rather uncomfortable. First, a shame-faced Secretary of State shook at the dispatch box as he tried to sneak out ward closures, including the A&E at Trafford General Hospital – the birthplace of the NHS – without telling any of the local MPs affected. The ineffective Jeremy Hunt was giving a ‘doing’ as his mendacity was exposed.

    No sooner had the sound of barnacle scraping stopped before, on the following day, a U-turn was announced to the Commons on the government’s proposed plain cigarette packaging proposals. In a series of tweets, popular Tory MP Sarah Wollaston wrote: ‘What a tragic waste of an opportunity. ‘Barnacles scraped off the boat’ AKA more lives ruined for political expediency…R.I.P. Public Health. A day of shame for this government; the only big winners big tobacco, big alcohol and big undertakers.’ Quite the tawdry mess..."

    An article written up using the same crib sheets that tim is sent.

    All the "Bingo!' phrases are in there.

    Hardly a surprise.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Rexel56 said:

    One wonders whether the term "political football" was used when crafting the "24 hours to save the NHS" slogan...

    and this pithy tweet summed it up for me.

    Dominic McDonough @torydom
    So the NHS helped you when you were sick? And? That's it's job. It also killed and injured many thousands, that's the problem #IloveourNHS
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Contempt.

    Burnham, Labour and NHS.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Speaking of Uncle Bernie

    Rob Harris @RobHarris
    Breaking: F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone tells me he's been indicted by German prosecutors for alleged bribery. Details on @AP_Sports
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    The TL;DR version of the report is:

    Three options, first option is a smaller runway to the north, cheapest but has the highest number of homes destroyed. The second option (and preferred I believe) is to the north west, full length runway fewer homes destroyed, low environmental impact, reduction of people in 57db noise envelope and a medium complexity build. The third option is the most expensive and complex and it is the most environmentally damaging, seems like a time wasting option.

    The second option would be completed by 2026(!) and cost £17bn, of which they would expect the taxpayer to stump £4-6bn and additional loan guarantees as well. Pretty cheap IMO. What's more is that the NW solution has the ability to add a fourth runway for little to no environmental, monetary and noise pollution cost. If NW isn't the preferred option then I really don't know why they would pick a different one. Economically it makes the most sense and it delivers long term expandability without too much additional fuss since it is a dual runway solution like we have atm.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On the question of independent thinking/speaking of MPs: many people seem to take it for granted that open primaries would lead to (a) more diversity and (b) more independently-minded MPs. However, although this is often said, is there really any evidence for it? Is it not equally possible that you'd end up with rather vacuous MPs selected on populist local issues such as wanting to keep open the local A & E, opposing a local road, or promising pork-barrel local projects?

    I don't know the answer to this question, but I do think we haven't got enough experience of open primaries to form a sensible view on this. One Sarah Wollaston doesn't make a statistically-valid sample; on the other side of the coin, you could argue that some of the most independently-minded MPs can afford to be independently-minded precisely because they are effectively impregnable in very safe seats: think Dennis Skinner, Frank Field, Peter Bone, Ken Clarke, David Davis, etc.

    I suspect you will end up with a lot of GPs and not many lawyers.

    Fundamentally, I think the need is to break the executive's control of the legislature. Force MPs to resign their seats to take up a government position.

    Holding the executive to account should be a job in its own right.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,094
    MaxPB said:

    Heathrow's proposal in full:

    http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1613&SizeId=-1

    The likes of antifrank, myself and SeanT are giddy right now guys...

    When they claim the Boeing 787's noise footprint is 60% less than today's similarly-sized aircraft, does that include the passengers' screams as it catches fire, or the fire engines' emergency sirens?

    :-)

    An interesting document, but as ever the source should be noted. I am particularly sceptical about the noise footprint figures, but will dissect it more when I get a chance. It's certainly seems reasonably thorough.

    None of the options are particularly palatable for locals - bye-bye Harmondsworth, Sipson or Harlington!

    Also note the options for a four-runway airport at the end of the document ...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    tim said:

    Fenster said:

    tim said:

    @Carlotta

    Keogh pointed to low nursing : patient ratios not Labour

    I realise you are going to spin that the govt shouldn't accept this though

    You can spin back and forth with everyone as much as you want Tim, and you may be right. But damage is being done.

    Did you see the front pages of this morming's Times, Telegraph and Mail? All fingers ponting at Labour.

    Voters don't read PB, but they will see the papers. And they will see broadcast news of Burnham trying - wide-eyed - to defend himself.

    The NHS is going to get progressively worse because costs and ages are rising and we can't afford to make it progressively better. Even the money Labour pumped-in had led to dissatisfaction and needless deaths and I'd guess the NHS requires a lot more money than that.

    I expect most politicians know the state can't afford the wonderful service we all want, but neither party will go for huge reform, because they are all too gutless.

    Lets see, the PB Tories thought ramping up immigration fears would help them rather than UKIP earlier this year.

    As Keogh said

    "‘Between 2000 and 2008, the NHS was rightly focused on rebuilding capacity and improving access after decades of neglect. The key issue was not whether people were dying in our hospitals avoidably, but that they were dying whilst waiting for treatment.’"

    The public know who deliberately under invested in health capacity in this country

    However much one spends on healthcare (and the Conservatives increased expenditure markedly from 1979-97), keeping pace with demand will always be difficult. No British government will ever again be able to afford to increase spending at the rate of 2000-8, so the issue is to how to cut our coat accordingly.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    antifrank said:

    @isam My father retired just before his 65th birthday after working just shy of 50 years as a printer. Three weeks later he de-retired into a delivery job with almost zero responsibility and the opportunity to spend all day talking with new people, and smoking secret cigarettes without having to pretend to my mother that he's "going for a walk".

    If he were to retire again in the near future, I think he would drive my mother mad.

    My Dad went down to a 2 day a week job when he was 60... he's now 70 and spending 4 days a week at the office and 6 days a week working if you include his various official functions and charity work...
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MrJones said:

    FPT

    JackW said:

    MrJones said:

    FPT

    JackW said:

    Met chief Hogan-Howe refuses to release the names of the dead children used by undercover police to the children's family.

    The Home Secretary should instruct him to do so within 24 hrs or dismiss him forthwith.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23324783

    Not all of them would have been smoking dope and shagging Greens. Some of them would have been doing dangerous stuff.
    And ???

    It's another example, as if we needed further examples, of an organization putting itself and its reputation above the interests of those they serve.

    Can the reputation of the Met sink any lower. One hopes not but I fear so.

    "And ???" so if you're talking about demanding a list of names in 24 hours without any filtering then i'd have thought you'd be talking about potentially getting people killed.
    Nonsense. Are these undercover officers still using the children's names, we are told not. Accordingly they have reverted to their real name and indentity.

    Rather it is the families of the children who are at risk. One unknowing family has already been discovered and approached by a political activist.

    The use of dead children by the Met is revolting. If Commanders lack the wit to organise a back story for their undercover officers without it then they should make way for those that can.

    IMO if the Met chief does not change his position then he is unfit for office and should be sacked by the Home Secretary.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Calling all CyberNats!

    Google erases Jura:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23331456
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    tim said:

    Socked, I'm shocked I tell you.

    Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 5m
    Cameron unlikely to seek unilateral repatriation of powers from EU http://thetim.es/1bHNhI6

    After the European Arrest Warrant I doubt even the Cameron loyalists on here believe what Iron Dave says about Europe.

    I think that nothing would be worse, from Cameron's point of view, than actually having to deliver on an EU referendum in 2017.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    Plato said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. G, aren't all those countries outside of the eurozone or any other monetary union?

    It's also worth mentioning that whilst I'm sure there'll be an earnest debate about specific numbers a theoretically independent Scotland would have a fairly large debt and deficit as it takes its share from the UK upon separation.

    Finland, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and Luxembourg are all AAA and in the Euro.
    Is UK AA with all credit rating agencies?
    With S&P we're AAA; with Fitch and Moody's we're AA+
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    MaxPB said:

    Heathrow's proposal in full:

    http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1613&SizeId=-1

    The likes of antifrank, myself and SeanT are giddy right now guys...

    None of the options are particularly palatable for locals - bye-bye Harmondsworth, Sipson or Harlington!

    One of the options leaves Harmondsworth untouched, but slap bang at the end of a shorter runway. Might as well send the bulldozers in on Day 1, since they'll be killing the village anyway. I guess that's the idea.

    I wonder what could be done to improve other airports using the sums of money mentioned in the report?

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Plato said:

    Speaking of Uncle Bernie

    Rob Harris @RobHarris
    Breaking: F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone tells me he's been indicted by German prosecutors for alleged bribery. Details on @AP_Sports

    Surely he's 'a pretty straight kinda guy'?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23344423#TWEET824508
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Convergence is finally here.

    Richard Frediani @FredianiITV
    The FA confirm @BBC and @BTSport are to share the rights to broadcast the FA Cup under a new four-year deal which kicks off in 2014.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Times Diary

    Wages of Spin

    Only a few days after Ed Miliband called for transparency in politics, Labour has slipped back into its old ways of censorship. The makers of a play satirising the last Prime Minister have been told that they will not be allowed to advertise it at the Labour conference in Brighton.

    Kevin Toolis, the writer and director of The Confessions of Gordon Brown, which will be on in Edinburgh before going to Brighton, was told he could buy an eighth-page advertisement in the conference magazine for £600 but overnight the deal was cancelled.

    Toolis says: “The only slot they offered cost £6,000 but we can’t afford that. We’re a small theatre company — not Unite. This smacks of Brezhnev-era thought control.”

    The Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee is to hold an inquiry into unsolicited telephone calls, it announced last week . . . in an unsolicited e-mail to everyone on the Parliament database.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Anyway before we all get carried away the OBR is predicting 99% Debt \GDP ratio by 2019 ( up from 91% ) and £19bn of tax rises or spending cuts needed.

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Ishmael_X said:

    "It is often said that NHS is the nearest thing we have to a religion in the UK."

    But what you don't see is a warning not to rely on the white card at all because Johnny Foreigner's system is not fit to lick the boots of the dear old NHS back in Blightie. Why not?

    Do you want to know the real dirty little secret of the NHS? It's cheap. The NHS costs less than foreign healthcare systems. So if you value the pound in your pocket, be careful what you wish for.
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    MikeSoleMikeSole Posts: 19
    Off Topic: HM Revenue & Custom have been in a battle with Kent County Council - travel expenses from home to county hall that were previously tax free expenses will now be subject to tax & NI. I thought it might be interesting to ask any councillors from other local authorities how their travel allowances are dealt with. (incidentally Kent Councillors will now be voting on whether to increase their mileage allowance from 45p to 67p a mile to cover the tax and NI!)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631


    One of the options leaves Harmondsworth untouched, but slap bang at the end of a shorter runway. Might as well send the bulldozers in on Day 1, since they'll be killing the village anyway. I guess that's the idea.

    I wonder what could be done to improve other airports using the sums of money mentioned in the report?

    £14-18bn doesn't buy a lot of airport and infrastructure. That's why on a cost/benefit analysis a third (and fourth) runway at Heathrow is so far ahead of every other option, it already has the transport links and the 17 mile rail extension proposed is an interesting idea. The NW solution is the clear winner, least homes destroyed, middling environmental impact and expandability to 4 runways without too much fuss.

    But that's the problem really, in the UK £14-18bn buys basically nothing in terms of large scale infrastructure, but at Heathrow it will buy 20 years worth of air capacity, and with the government only being asked for ~£5bn and a few loan guarantees it is almost free for them given the rise in APD they will see in the proceeding years.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    MG..This might come as a shock to you but it is up to the Scots to produce policies for Scotland that will convince fellow Scots to vote for independence..phew ,nary a one in sight ..now, when is your referendum?..
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT This is lovely - an Indian restaurant sponsors kids footie team.

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02619/POTD-Curryhouse_2619615k.jpg
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:


    Toolis says: “The only slot they offered cost £6,000 but we can’t afford that. We’re a small theatre company — not Unite. This smacks of Brezhnev-era thought control.”

    The law is open to everyone, and so is the Ritz Hotel. And advertising.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    I see the Tories are jumping all over the employment figures today. It's true that employment has been something of a bright spot amid the depression, but when you realise that people are working shorter hours for low pay the picture isn't that great. It does amuse me that having for years prioritised low inflation over unemployment the Tories are now going on about employment all the time - presumably because it's pretty much the only metric that looks good right now. Of course the deficit won't be very affected because low pay means many people are still claiming benefits and a lot of the new jobs are lower skilled than the ones before re poor productivity performance.

    I see the politically non-aligned antifrank is delighted that employment amongst the over 65s is increasing presumably due to them not wanting to retire. What an out of touch privileged middles class viewpoint! They're working because they can't afford to reitre. If you think that's good news it just goes to show how right wing people like antifrank actually are.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,094

    MaxPB said:

    Heathrow's proposal in full:

    http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1613&SizeId=-1

    The likes of antifrank, myself and SeanT are giddy right now guys...

    None of the options are particularly palatable for locals - bye-bye Harmondsworth, Sipson or Harlington!

    One of the options leaves Harmondsworth untouched, but slap bang at the end of a shorter runway. Might as well send the bulldozers in on Day 1, since they'll be killing the village anyway. I guess that's the idea.

    I wonder what could be done to improve other airports using the sums of money mentioned in the report?
    As people on here will know, I'm very sceptical about a Heathrow expansion, and find it curious they've added fourth-runway options despite claiming the planned third runway meets capacity until at least 2040. Methinks they think it won't.

    There are many options: upgrading Gatwick and/or Stansted, or building a new hub. All will be massively costly and have advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the Davies Report will address all feasible options and cost them by the same standards.

    Putting my think-of-the-children alarmist cap on: Hounslow had a lucky escape with BA flight 38 a few years ago.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeSole said:

    Off Topic: HM Revenue & Custom have been in a battle with Kent County Council - travel expenses from home to county hall that were previously tax free expenses will now be subject to tax & NI. I thought it might be interesting to ask any councillors from other local authorities how their travel allowances are dealt with. (incidentally Kent Councillors will now be voting on whether to increase their mileage allowance from 45p to 67p a mile to cover the tax and NI!)

    Travel from home to a habitual place of work has been taxable for many years in the private sector. Why should be any different for the public sector?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    Calling all CyberNats!

    Google erases Jura:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23331456

    Typical tax avoiding incompetent unionists , could not run a bath. It will be a dastardly Westminster plot so that they can move trident to Jura and no-one will know.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Plato said:


    Toolis says: “The only slot they offered cost £6,000 but we can’t afford that. We’re a small theatre company — not Unite. This smacks of Brezhnev-era thought control.”

    The law is open to everyone, and so is the Ritz Hotel. And advertising.
    But they are getting free advertising from their complaint!

    Don't tell Roger... ;-)
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Ishmael_X said:

    "It is often said that NHS is the nearest thing we have to a religion in the UK."

    But what you don't see is a warning not to rely on the white card at all because Johnny Foreigner's system is not fit to lick the boots of the dear old NHS back in Blightie. Why not?

    Do you want to know the real dirty little secret of the NHS? It's cheap. The NHS costs less than foreign healthcare systems. So if you value the pound in your pocket, be careful what you wish for.
    I don't have a problem paying more for a disproportionally better healthcare system.

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    MaxPB said:

    Heathrow's proposal in full:

    http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1613&SizeId=-1

    The likes of antifrank, myself and SeanT are giddy right now guys...

    None of the options are particularly palatable for locals - bye-bye Harmondsworth, Sipson or Harlington!

    One of the options leaves Harmondsworth untouched, but slap bang at the end of a shorter runway. Might as well send the bulldozers in on Day 1, since they'll be killing the village anyway. I guess that's the idea.

    I wonder what could be done to improve other airports using the sums of money mentioned in the report?

    The money must be spent in London , why else would all us mugs go via London when we want to travel anywhere.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cam has done his homework this week.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    F1: Miss Vance, you beat me to it!

    It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Regardless of the legal action, Ecclestone won't be the kingpin of F1 forever.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    For once, Cameron has done his homework on Nursing numbers better than Miliband - now quoting Burnham back at Miliband on plain packaging......
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @FrankBooth You misunderstood my point. I fully appreciate that some people would rather retire if they could. It's a shame that they can't. But would you rather they spent their old age without a new source of income? It would be better if they had better pensions in their old age, but they don't. So it's good news that they have the opportunity to find work.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631



    As people on here will know, I'm very sceptical about a Heathrow expansion, and find it curious they've added fourth-runway options despite claiming the planned third runway meets capacity until at least 2040. Methinks they think it won't.

    There are many options: upgrading Gatwick and/or Stansted, or building a new hub. All will be massively costly and have advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the Davies Report will address all feasible options and cost them by the same standards.

    Putting my think-of-the-children alarmist cap on: Hounslow had a lucky escape with BA flight 38 a few years ago.

    The capacity from the third runway would be exhausted fairly quickly. A sensible option would be to give them the go ahead for the NW option and planning permission for both runways, but only allow the second of the two to be built after say 2035 and only if the airport is running at full capacity.

    Like I said, there is no other project in Britain where spending £14-18bn (of which only ~£5bn comes from the taxpayer) will bring this kind of economic benefit. Whatever is said about Heathrow being in the wrong place is true, but it is there and we don't have the luxury of time and money any longer. The time for building a new hub ended ten years ago, if they had approved it then, building would commence now and it would be ready in 2025. Britain can't wait until 2033 for Boris Island to be ready and then another 5 years as it ramps up and Heathrow closes down. What's worse is that BI would have absolutely awful transport links, Heathrow is connected to the M4 and M25, it can be reached from almost any city in Britain via those two roads. The 17 mile rail extension also looks like a very interesting prospect as it will allow rail travel to Heathrow directly from many more cities.

    Nowhere else in Britain can so little be spent for so much gain.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    For once, Cameron has done his homework on Nursing numbers better than Miliband - now quoting Burnham back at Miliband on plain packaging......

    EdM is thrashing about the NHS and now Crosby. He's getting UNITE back in spades re lobbying. EdM very weak here.

    CRIPES - EdM is now using Coulson?! HAHAHHAHAHAH
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Surely a clear win for Ed this week ?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Ed on the canvas .... not a pretty sight !!
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Bercow lets Cameron get away with a lot of not answering the question. Not sure what the tory beef about him is (except that he is an oik, obviously).
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    I think Cameron won that one quite easily, role reversal, Cameron on the facts, Ed flailing.....
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    SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    Ed "Did you ever have a conversation with Lyndon Crosby about plain packaging on cigarette packages" I'm sure that's the question on the lips of the man in the street
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Clear victory for Dave this week.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    I haven't watched PMQs for years. Brown never answered the questions and now Cameron doesn't either. It's a complete waste of everyone's time.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    MaxPB said:



    As people on here will know, I'm very sceptical about a Heathrow expansion, and find it curious they've added fourth-runway options despite claiming the planned third runway meets capacity until at least 2040. Methinks they think it won't.

    There are many options: upgrading Gatwick and/or Stansted, or building a new hub. All will be massively costly and have advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the Davies Report will address all feasible options and cost them by the same standards.

    Putting my think-of-the-children alarmist cap on: Hounslow had a lucky escape with BA flight 38 a few years ago.

    What's worse is that BI would have absolutely awful transport links, Heathrow is connected to the M4 and M25, it can be reached from almost any city in Britain via those two roads.
    Both those motorways are frequently clogged up and working to capacity.

    Heathrow has diabolical transport links.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mike on the edge of the sofa - Bercow up twice so far.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Bit of a damp squib this one. They've all packed their bags and the taxis are waiting.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Bercow up thrice - Mike wins.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MaxPB said:



    As people on here will know, I'm very sceptical about a Heathrow expansion, and find it curious they've added fourth-runway options despite claiming the planned third runway meets capacity until at least 2040. Methinks they think it won't.

    There are many options: upgrading Gatwick and/or Stansted, or building a new hub. All will be massively costly and have advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the Davies Report will address all feasible options and cost them by the same standards.

    Putting my think-of-the-children alarmist cap on: Hounslow had a lucky escape with BA flight 38 a few years ago.

    What's worse is that BI would have absolutely awful transport links, Heathrow is connected to the M4 and M25, it can be reached from almost any city in Britain via those two roads.
    Both those motorways are frequently clogged up and working to capacity.

    Heathrow has diabolical transport links.

    25 minutes from London to Heathrow in the morning by car. the Express to Paddington is fearsomely expensive but quick and reliable as well.

    Plumbing Heathrow directly into the rail network would probably be helpful, but the road connections really aren't too bad.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Pavilion clock in serious danger from Cam treatment of Emma Reynolds
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Cameron on form and enjoying himself.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Bit of a damp squib this one. They've all packed their bags and the taxis are waiting.

    Labour MPs leaving with a spring in their step ?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Cameron just cemented Balls & Burnham in place by calling for their removal....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Clear victory for Dave this week.

    Isabel Oakeshott
    @IsabelOakeshott
    I've rarely seen the PM perform better at #pmqs than he has today
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    Clear victory for Dave this week.

    Hear hear sir
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Bit of a damp squib this one. They've all packed their bags and the taxis are waiting.

    Labour MPs leaving with a spring in their step ?
    Dunno. Hope they're smiling. Wish I had a such a long break.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    edited July 2013



    Both those motorways are frequently clogged up and working to capacity.

    Heathrow has diabolical transport links.

    Compared to what Boris proposed those transport links look like stairways to heaven. I'm all for big engineering projects, I support Thorium nuclear power for example, and the £60m grant for the new SABRE engines is music to my ears, but when it comes to air capacity, the question is not where can we put the capacity, but how quickly will it be up and running. I think 2026 is a conservative estimate, if the government got its arse in gear and Eric Pickles just waved it through and blocked any court cases it could be ready earlier than that.

    Like JJ's opinion on nuclear power (we need something that works now, not an untested technology) mine is the same for airports, we need what works now. Heathrow works, it is an incredibly efficient operation, the way they have managed to squeeze out every last drop of capacity is truly amazing. There are no guarantees that expanding Gatwick or Stansted would yield the same results in capacity increases like Heathrow would surely manage.
    Charles said:



    25 minutes from London to Heathrow in the morning by car. the Express to Paddington is fearsomely expensive but quick and reliable as well.

    Plumbing Heathrow directly into the rail network would probably be helpful, but the road connections really aren't too bad.

    There's also the Piccadilly line to consider, no other London airport is served on the underground network. Only London City is on the transport network but that is the DLR which doesn't have the same capacity.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:



    As people on here will know, I'm very sceptical about a Heathrow expansion, and find it curious they've added fourth-runway options despite claiming the planned third runway meets capacity until at least 2040. Methinks they think it won't.

    There are many options: upgrading Gatwick and/or Stansted, or building a new hub. All will be massively costly and have advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the Davies Report will address all feasible options and cost them by the same standards.

    Putting my think-of-the-children alarmist cap on: Hounslow had a lucky escape with BA flight 38 a few years ago.

    What's worse is that BI would have absolutely awful transport links, Heathrow is connected to the M4 and M25, it can be reached from almost any city in Britain via those two roads.
    Both those motorways are frequently clogged up and working to capacity.

    Heathrow has diabolical transport links.

    25 minutes from London to Heathrow in the morning by car. the Express to Paddington is fearsomely expensive but quick and reliable as well.

    Plumbing Heathrow directly into the rail network would probably be helpful, but the road connections really aren't too bad.
    Try driving the other way at 9am on a weekday.

    The best part of an hour by Underground is hardly a pleasure.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    "Lynton Crosby is there to
    Schards said:

    Ed "Did you ever have a conversation with Lyndon Crosby about plain packaging on cigarette packages" I'm sure that's the question on the lips of the man in the street

    And he followed up with another corker - great stuff from Cameron re Unite lobbying. Labour walked straight into that one.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Cameron "The LotO hasn't asked a full set of questions about the economy since February..."

    Indeed.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Janan Ganesh tweets: 'PM had his Weetabix today'.....
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Interesting question from Andrew George.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Cameron "I was elected by OMOV, he was elected by a union stitch up"...
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    Oh dear - very bad day for Labour - all over the shop today, their hearts don't seem to be in it.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    We now go over to Westminster where David Cameron has just hit one of Ed Milliband's balls out of the ground.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    scampi said:

    Oh dear - very bad day for Labour - all over the shop today, their hearts don't seem to be in it.

    ICM Effect.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Unite Ed.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Plato said:

    Cameron "The LotO hasn't asked a full set of questions about the economy since February..."

    Indeed.

    To be fair, the PM hasn't answered a full set of questions on any subject.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    Opposition obsessions: Lynton Crosby, Andy Coulson, 'millionaire donors', Adrian Beecroft, Petropak, 'Benson and Hedge funds' (ha ha).

    I can't quite decide if they are actually mad enough to believe any of this garbage, or if they cynically think that throwing around smears about donors actually has some resonance with ordinary voters. I have a horrible feeling that it might be the former.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013
    Labour must be praying there's not too much fergie-time !!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997

    I see the Tories are jumping all over the employment figures today. It's true that employment has been something of a bright spot amid the depression, but when you realise that people are working shorter hours for low pay the picture isn't that great. It does amuse me that having for years prioritised low inflation over unemployment the Tories are now going on about employment all the time - presumably because it's pretty much the only metric that looks good right now. Of course the deficit won't be very affected because low pay means many people are still claiming benefits and a lot of the new jobs are lower skilled than the ones before re poor productivity performance.

    I see the politically non-aligned antifrank is delighted that employment amongst the over 65s is increasing presumably due to them not wanting to retire. What an out of touch privileged middles class viewpoint! They're working because they can't afford to reitre. If you think that's good news it just goes to show how right wing people like antifrank actually are.

    Average hours worked are increasing, as is full-time employment. Inflation is at a fairly low level.

    WRT older people working longer, there's a bit of both. As people live longer, so they must work longer, to maintain their standard of living. Equally, lots of people don't want to completely retire, but would prefer to keep their hand in.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    There's an aggression about David Cameron today that is slightly chilling. He's taken some very punchy lines on quite a few different questions that have been effective but not particularly Prime Ministerial.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Cameron in reply to a claim of something or other "We're not embarrassed by enterprise - I'll take [some company] to everywhere"

    This pugnacious line is spot on - stop apologising for what you believe in.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Wow, Cameron just smacked down that Labour woman.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    Opposition obsessions: Lynton Crosby, Andy Coulson, 'millionaire donors', Adrian Beecroft, Petropak, 'Benson and Hedge funds' (ha ha).

    I can't quite decide if they are actually mad enough to believe any of this garbage, or if they cynically think that throwing around smears about donors actually has some resonance with ordinary voters. I have a horrible feeling that it might be the former.

    They missed off Lord Ashcroft. Its risible stuff.

    Cameron "When Lynton Crosby gives the Tories advice we pay for it, when the Honorable Lady got £32k from Unite she got money"
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Plato said:

    They missed off Lord Ashcroft. Its risible stuff.

    Good point, they're not on form.
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    SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    Good god, it's just own goal after own goal from Labour. I have never seen a party shoot itself in the foot so relentlessly at a PMQ's ever
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Labour really are flailing today. I suspect they think they can re-run Coulson, but things are different now. Then the economy was down the pan and people wanted to kick HMG now the good news is pushing the political issues to the sidelines, nobody cares.

    Most relevant questions today were asked by the LDs.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Plato said:

    They missed off Lord Ashcroft. Its risible stuff.

    Good point, they're not on form.
    Every time they ask a Crosby question, they've given him a clear goal to shoot the ball back into - can none of these sheep think on their feet?

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    BTW, I thought questions about party matters weren't supposed to be allowed at PMQs. So why is Bercow allowing these silly questions about Crosby, who is working for the Conservative Party, not the government? (Not that Cammo will mind being bowled such easy balls, of course).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2013
    Crosby certainly seems to have given some fighting spirit to the Tories.

    Not answering questions though, but PMQ has been pantomime rather than a serious Q and A session for years.
    antifrank said:

    There's an aggression about David Cameron today that is slightly chilling. He's taken some very punchy lines on quite a few different questions that have been effective but not particularly Prime Ministerial.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    MT @Tony_McNulty: v bad session for Lab - pre-recess #pmqs shd have been all about our issues - NHS, economy, jobs, schools, cost of living
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Another back of the net performance from Deadwood Miliband.

    http://order-order.com/2013/07/17/milibands-marlboro-man/#comment-1786643

    Back of the wrong net.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If I was a Tory MP - I'd be bouncing out of the HoC today and with ICM behind me.

    Let's see when the reshuffle appears.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Oh Gawd, Chuka wheels out the perennial dirtiest campaign ever chestnut.

    Numpty.
This discussion has been closed.