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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The robots are coming

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited November 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The robots are coming

In her Mansion House speech, May said this about those who viewed the forces of globalization (“this agenda as the answer to all our ills””) in a different light to those who promoted it – “These people – often those on modest to low incomes living in rich countries like our own – see their jobs being outsourced and wages undercut.”  She went on: “When you refuse to accept that globalization in its current form has left too many people behind, you‘re not sowing the seeds for its growth but for its ruin.” 

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  • Options
    First ..... again!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    They can't hold a candle to Ed Balls.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,320
    Third, like Big Sam.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,320
    edited November 2016
    Didn't listen to the whole speech. I think it's disgusting that that fine upstanding communist Jeremy Corbyn plus other assorted lefties aren't fans of the huge increase in wealth of the citizens of the People's Republic of China. And India. And Vietnam. And...

    As for Tezza, as always when she speaks, no one is the wiser vs before she started as to what she wants or means or believes.

    was that anywhere near on topic?
  • Options
    Ladbrokes have today finally settled winning bets on their Republicans to Win 21 - 30 States.

    The words "stone", "blood"and "squeezing" spring to mind.
  • Options
    Another excellent piece by Miss Cyclefree.

    The choice of video atop this thread was entirely down to me.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,972

    First ..... again!

    Argh! Beaten again.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,972

    Another excellent piece by Miss Cyclefree.

    The choice of video atop this thread was entirely down to me.

    Not in any way influenced by recent events, I trust? :D
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,447
    An interesting thesis.

    During the 1980's this was supposed to happen - but IT didn't live up to the promises, and it was cheaper to outsource/import labour.

    The area of work that is growing, not shrinking is allegedly blue-collar - but with high skills. For example, a young chap (son of a friend) flunked out of the path to a degree. Now he is a hi-tech welder, and is moving into high end CNC work - path tuning etc. In these roles, automation helps - as it improves it drives productivity up, enabling workers to do more, faster rather than eliminating roles.

    Pure white collar work is much more vulnerable. Block chain, for example, may make possible total automation of wide areas of accounting. Lawyers will block automation of the law, of course.

    I have a feeling that the first to go will be the swathes of middle managers - better automated processes will strip out layers of jobs, which often consist of little more than aggregating data from the layer of the business below.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Another excellent piece by Miss Cyclefree.

    The choice of video atop this thread was entirely down to me.

    Awesome video - congratulations for that!
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    In some areas robotics, computers and algorithms make headway but still fail.

    A recent example was Hillary Clinton's campaign which was managed by "Ada", another was Lehman Bros.
    Humans are still far better decision makers than A.I.

    Robots, computers and programs should be used as tools only, instead of supplanting humans.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    To support your point, there is Brexit talk bot that could replace many of the contributors on this blog.

    http://wtfisbrexit.com/
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215

    Another excellent piece by Miss Cyclefree.

    The choice of video atop this thread was entirely down to me.

    What a cool video! Take that, Ed Balls!

    I feel I should retire now. What could possibly top that?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,447
    GeoffM said:

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
    The first role for robots in medicine will be in minders/helpers for elderly people. That's what the Japanese are pushing for. Imagine an eternally patient, kind helper who will stay with each patient 24/7, just to make sure they don't wander off, hurt themselves and have enough water to drink.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    GeoffM said:

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
    fine by me, I will be retired to tbe sun.

    But actually Doctors, Lawyers and Financiers are all very adept at inventing new ways to keep tbemselves gainfully employed :-)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Ladbrokes have today finally settled winning bets on their Republicans to Win 21 - 30 States.

    The words "stone", "blood"and "squeezing" spring to mind.

    Clinton 0-5%
    (Winning Vote Share Margin)

    Popular vote winner loses in Electoral College
    (US Election Specials)
    7/1
    2016 Presidential Election Winner

    Still to come
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    TOPPING said:

    Didn't listen to the whole speech. I think it's disgusting that that fine upstanding communist Jeremy Corbyn plus other assorted lefties aren't fans of the huge increase in wealth of the citizens of the People's Republic of China. And India. And Vietnam. And...

    As for Tezza, as always when she speaks, no one is the wiser vs before she started as to what she wants or means or believes.

    was that anywhere near on topic?

    You break my heart, Mr Topping. I wrote this for you. And you spurn me thus...... :)

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    The pressure on lawyers (whether external or in-house) to make the necessary cost savings will force lawyers to adapt. And not just them: all professionals will be asked what value do they add to what can be provided by non-human providers.

    I and hundreds of others were told the other day by the powers that be in our part of the world that such automisation would not mean huge numbers would be let go as surplus to requirements (not in those words, obviously). I didn't believe a word of it. I'm certain a robot could do my job soon, and the idea a local authority wold find something for hundreds or thousands to so if there was no need for them is barmy.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    If the robots are better than us will we have any choice?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,736
    I think globalisation has a while to run yet. Which means engaging with it in smart ways gives you more success than rejecting it. While I sympathise with those left behind and am angry on their behalf with those that abandoned them, the best and only way really you can help them is to equip them to deal better with globalisation.

    In as much as Brexit is a rejection of globalisation, it does a great disservice to those that supposedly were the motivation for it.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,320
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Didn't listen to the whole speech. I think it's disgusting that that fine upstanding communist Jeremy Corbyn plus other assorted lefties aren't fans of the huge increase in wealth of the citizens of the People's Republic of China. And India. And Vietnam. And...

    As for Tezza, as always when she speaks, no one is the wiser vs before she started as to what she wants or means or believes.

    was that anywhere near on topic?

    You break my heart, Mr Topping. I wrote this for you. And you spurn me thus...... :)

    Reading now....
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,447

    GeoffM said:

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
    fine by me, I will be retired to tbe sun.

    But actually Doctors, Lawyers and Financiers are all very adept at inventing new ways to keep tbemselves gainfully employed :-)
    What will happen, at least at first, is that the robotic helpers will massively increase productivity - if done right.

    Consider a future hospital - instant testing (a drop of blood or saliva on a sensor on a hand held device), medicines manufactured by a machine in the corner of the ward to spec for the patients genetic makeup. Basic patient minding - are they fed, watered, alive - automated.

    All quite possible, Plenty of need for doctors - if done right this just means that all the non-doctoring stuff can be off-loaded to machines.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    I wish to exist. I don't care whether I deserve to exist.
  • Options
    The automation point is a very good one and one that makes me (as a Conservative) uncomfortable. The robots are coming for many more jobs than we currently expect.

    I was on an interview panel earlier this year when my organisation was hiring some accountants. I'm not an accountant myself, but our rules require a non-specialist on interview panels. After four days of listening to junior-to-mid-level accountants talk about their skills and experiences, I asked the panel chair (our deputy finance director) "Why are we hiring for these jobs? This work sounds like something a computer could do."

    His answer? "The software's not quite good enough yet. Give it two years." A few weeks later, Walmart did a mass lay-off of accountants.
  • Options
    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Globalisation is no different to the Industrial Revolution. Populations adapted to mass, factory based manufacturing, we changed from a rural to an urban based society (which is what is happening in India and China, with massive movements of people), and we managed then, indeed positively flourished, despite the wailing and screaming of Luddites.

    Whatever changes come, we will, in the words of Clint Eastwood, 'improvise, adapt, and overcome'.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    What does 'deserving' have anything to do with it? Many things deserve better or worse than they get. Viz a Viz robots, well, many will find themselves with nothing of worth to contribute as machines do things better than us. Presumably either we reduce massively in numbers, or eventually we will have to get rid of some machines.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,736
    The more likely probability is that the drudge legal work will be done by reasonably well educated but cheap labour in the Philippines or India, pretty much as programming and typesetting is offshored today
  • Options
    Overall wealth can only be increased by increased productivity.

    Robots should enable increased productivity and maybe shorter working hours.

    When I started work as a production engineer in a factory in the 1960s I worked 44 hours per week.

    When I finsihed as Head of Strategy for one of the big banks in the 2000s I was working far longer hours despite the vast increase in productivity in the meantime.

    In the last ten years, productivity growth in the Uk has come to a halt. If we are to increase overall wealth we ned to increase productivity. Bring on the robots.



  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Interesting piece Miss Cyclefree. What about demechanization? The number of jobs in the East of England has grown enormously, I can't believe those jobs have come out of thin air.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Rogueywon said:

    The automation point is a very good one and one that makes me (as a Conservative) uncomfortable. The robots are coming for many more jobs than we currently expect.

    I was on an interview panel earlier this year when my organisation was hiring some accountants. I'm not an accountant myself, but our rules require a non-specialist on interview panels. After four days of listening to junior-to-mid-level accountants talk about their skills and experiences, I asked the panel chair (our deputy finance director) "Why are we hiring for these jobs? This work sounds like something a computer could do."

    His answer? "The software's not quite good enough yet. Give it two years." A few weeks later, Walmart did a mass lay-off of accountants.

    I wonder if software can do creative accounting or tax dodging.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,987

    First ..... again!

    Don't worry a bot will soon take over the task
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ftpt
    GeoffM said:

    Alistair said:

    GeoffM said:

    Alistair said:

    Cyclefree said:


    It is utterly revolting. And quite genuinely shocking. (And I'm not easily shocked.)

    Michelle Obama has been the epitome of a classy, dignified and beautiful First Lady. As far as I know she appears not to have put a foot wrong. But even if she weren't any of those things, one simply does not talk about people in such a way.

    One of the fringe conspiracy theories out there is that Obama is gay and Michelle Obama is a man. The Obama children are, of course, kidnapped.

    I say fringe but it's been pedalled by Alex Jones so I suppose that's now main stream orthodox on the right.
    That's quite .... novel ... as a theory. I'm not quite sure how to put it into a search engine and verify it exists or ifyou just made it up without potentially unintended consequences side-effects.
    You type in "Michelle Obama is a man" into Google. You get thr Joan Rivers bit but you also get the wackos who have done a whole thing including indepth YouTube video series about it.
    Wow. Ummmm. Thanks Alistair. I genuinely mean that, too. Cheers muchly.
    You've opened my eyes on a whole new vista of nuttiness.
    My advice would be only ever skim the surface, never go to deep into racist conspiracy foxholes otherwise you'll end up thoroughly depressed.

    And NEVER read the YouTube comments!
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited November 2016
    So the Terminator rears it's grinning head again, but instead of a quick demise, this one will exact a slow and inexorable death if we don't change our ways. It will be the beginning one hopes, of humanities contraction from overrunning the world with it's billions of hungry mouths; as work contracts and disappears people will either except the robot revolution or go to war, not against the robots but against themselves.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    FF43 said:

    In as much as Brexit is a rejection of globalisation, it does a great disservice to those that supposedly were the motivation for it.

    I don't think people are rejecting globalisation per se, they simply want a variant of it that doesn't make them personally poorer. Expecting people to support something the sees their job abolished or move overseas, or that sees their earnings suppressed or lowered, well that's a non-starter. You would have to be incredibly committed to seeing the lives of Chinese and Indian people improve to be willing to become poorer yourself as a consequence.

    If — huge fantastic great IF — we can figure out a way of looking after our own and promoting trade we will all be a lot happier. Maybe we can't do that, but we sure as hell ought to at least try.

  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2016
    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    GeoffM said:

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
    fine by me, I will be retired to tbe sun.

    But actually Doctors, Lawyers and Financiers are all very adept at inventing new ways to keep tbemselves gainfully employed :-)
    Yes. We will. Rich people will always want to be healthy, protect their wealth and increase it!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    If Fillon makes it through to the run off then he has a better chance of beating Juppé than Sarkozy.
  • Options
    When employment is at record levels in Britain, it is quirky to worry about machines destroying jobs and wealth in the short term. Technology will free up humans to do more of hitherto unappreciated but newly valued activities. Different skills will be required so some will be losers (including many lawyers) but there will be other winners.

    Much greater and cheaper computerisation will make it easier for all of us to convert our ideas into reality. That would lead to a huge upsurge in creativity and innovation. Britain's skills base is well suited to exploit such a world.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Speedy said:

    Rogueywon said:

    The automation point is a very good one and one that makes me (as a Conservative) uncomfortable. The robots are coming for many more jobs than we currently expect.

    I was on an interview panel earlier this year when my organisation was hiring some accountants. I'm not an accountant myself, but our rules require a non-specialist on interview panels. After four days of listening to junior-to-mid-level accountants talk about their skills and experiences, I asked the panel chair (our deputy finance director) "Why are we hiring for these jobs? This work sounds like something a computer could do."

    His answer? "The software's not quite good enough yet. Give it two years." A few weeks later, Walmart did a mass lay-off of accountants.

    I wonder if software can do creative accounting or tax dodging.
    Or to follow from your earlier point, Bill Clinton had a better grasp of what needed to be done than Ada did.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    GeoffM said:

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    Robots will be cheaper too, and work at weekends.
    fine by me, I will be retired to tbe sun.

    But actually Doctors, Lawyers and Financiers are all very adept at inventing new ways to keep tbemselves gainfully employed :-)
    What will happen, at least at first, is that the robotic helpers will massively increase productivity - if done right.

    Consider a future hospital - instant testing (a drop of blood or saliva on a sensor on a hand held device), medicines manufactured by a machine in the corner of the ward to spec for the patients genetic makeup. Basic patient minding - are they fed, watered, alive - automated.

    All quite possible, Plenty of need for doctors - if done right this just means that all the non-doctoring stuff can be off-loaded to machines.
    Companies like IBM are ploughing huge resources into medical diagnosis, especially in GP or triage situations where patient throughput is important. At the other end of the scale, it's also collecting reports and papers arising from very specialist cases, which should aid specialists and alert them to what is being seen elsewhere in the world.

    Way more important than teaching it to play Jeopardy, which was Watson's first (and very successful) challenge.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    One job that should be a priority for automation is politicians.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    Pulpstar said:

    Ladbrokes have today finally settled winning bets on their Republicans to Win 21 - 30 States.

    The words "stone", "blood"and "squeezing" spring to mind.

    Clinton 0-5%
    (Winning Vote Share Margin)

    Popular vote winner loses in Electoral College
    (US Election Specials)
    7/1
    2016 Presidential Election Winner

    Still to come
    The 0-5% band is annoying me, there's no chance it will be overturned. Come on Shadsy, you owe me £90!
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2016
    He polled strongly at the weekend (+9, if I recall) at the expense of Juppe.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    What does 'deserving' have anything to do with it? Many things deserve better or worse than they get. Viz a Viz robots, well, many will find themselves with nothing of worth to contribute as machines do things better than us. Presumably either we reduce massively in numbers, or eventually we will have to get rid of some machines.
    Many machines are better than us - aeroplanes at flying, JCBs at digging, robots at building cars. That's why our numbers continue to increase - the machines support us. The problems come when the machines get bolshy like my PC that is currently insisting it is going to install updates to Window 10 whether I like it or not.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2016
    ..
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.
    Anyone who uses computers will know that.
  • Options
    Thanks Cyclefree for the article.

    We have seen the trend in this country where the tax base is shrinking to the point where the top 1% of income tax payers provide circa 25% of all income tax. The mobility of companies and highly skilled labour, puts caps on tax rates and with automisation the ceiling for tax rates is just going down. Therefore there is only one direction for government share of the GDP and that is down. What can Govt cut back on? Initially its employees will be largely replaced, probably 90% reductions in a 20+ year period. But, how to fund welfare and how to fund the NHS?

    I agree with Malmesbury about skilled labour, will we ever see an end to the need for plasterers and plumbers inside 50 years?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,320
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Didn't listen to the whole speech. I think it's disgusting that that fine upstanding communist Jeremy Corbyn plus other assorted lefties aren't fans of the huge increase in wealth of the citizens of the People's Republic of China. And India. And Vietnam. And...

    As for Tezza, as always when she speaks, no one is the wiser vs before she started as to what she wants or means or believes.

    was that anywhere near on topic?

    You break my heart, Mr Topping. I wrote this for you. And you spurn me thus...... :)

    OK read it. Very good piece, as ever.

    I tend to side with @Jason that we will adapt and utilise rather than be sidelined. Of course there will come a time when the emerging economies, and eventually also the LDCs will be up there battling with us, but not only is that some time away (the "long run" about which I care little), but we will then also I hope be further along the curve.

    If junior lawyers' jobs are being automated, then they can move on to more value added roles. Meanwhile, listening both to the case of the guy about to be extradited to the US, and also the refusal of appeals following the change in joint enterprise law, and the associated controversies ("they got it wrong" from both sides) leads me to believe that no lawyer is going to be roboticised any time soon.

    Finally, the piece could be read (could be) as the middle classes trying to empathise with the working classes to mitigate some of the anger of the latter. The line "don't worry, as a lawyer, I will suffer also" might not be the most convincing for low skilled workers.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.
    Computers do what they're programmed to do. Ask today's NHS IT worker in receipt of her shiny new P45!*

    *I'm assuming they fired her anyway, for crashing the whole NHS email server for a day.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,736
    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    In as much as Brexit is a rejection of globalisation, it does a great disservice to those that supposedly were the motivation for it.

    I don't think people are rejecting globalisation per se, they simply want a variant of it that doesn't make them personally poorer. Expecting people to support something the sees their job abolished or move overseas, or that sees their earnings suppressed or lowered, well that's a non-starter. You would have to be incredibly committed to seeing the lives of Chinese and Indian people improve to be willing to become poorer yourself as a consequence.

    If — huge fantastic great IF — we can figure out a way of looking after our own and promoting trade we will all be a lot happier. Maybe we can't do that, but we sure as hell ought to at least try.

    Of course. But you don't get a choice. The lives of Chinese and Indian people will improve anyway. The question is whether you want to be part of that process and keep some prosperity or reject it and have nothing. I don't mean to be cruel, but that's the world we live in. I think it's crueller to maintain the deception.

    FWIW I have Chinese relatives - ordinary working class people - who have seen their lives transformed in the past twenty years
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,972
    Sandpit said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.
    Computers do what they're programmed to do. Ask today's NHS IT worker in receipt of her shiny new P45!*

    *I'm assuming they fired her anyway, for crashing the whole NHS email server for a day.
    Whoever thought having a nhs_all email list that *anyone* could email was a good idea?
  • Options
    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.
  • Options

    Robot is Czech for worker as I recall.

    My job may well become roboticin terms of the technical skill required. Probably a good thing too considering how buggered medical education is!

    I thought it meant 'slave', but Google thinks
    "It was the brainchild of a brilliant Czech playwright, novelist and journalist named Karel Čapek (1880-1938) who introduced it in his 1920 hit play, R.U.R., or Rossum's Universal Robots. Robot is drawn from an old Church Slavonic word, robota, for “servitude,” “forced labor” or “drudgery.”
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
  • Options
    Of course the move towards the £9 minimum wage level in this country, will bring in automation faster here than in most countries. Fast food and Care Homes for example.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,972
    edited November 2016

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    Do you remember about ten or so years ago, maybe more than that, some stores back then had the scanners you took around with you to scan as you put in your trolley. Then you simply returned the handset and paid the bill. Was very nice, and better than the self-checkouts we have now.

    Of course, these are all superseded by the RFID arch we will soon be going through, which will determine what we bought (by scanning the contents of our trolley), and will immediately bill us based on the RFID chip in our credit card!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2016
    There is a lot of misunderstanding about the state of what machine learning & computer vision can and can not do.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,972
    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
    That can't be true, surely? The code itself doesn't get re-written by the computer.. or does it? :o
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    There must have been times when you want to smash the things, though, when they keep bleating "unexpected item in bagging area."
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    On today's biggest story, can we safely assume that the Times will run its clarification on P1 tomorrow, followed by the BBC and Sky leading the 8am bulletins with it..?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Speedy said:
    Yes, it's all been agreed.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Didn't listen to the whole speech. I think it's disgusting that that fine upstanding communist Jeremy Corbyn plus other assorted lefties aren't fans of the huge increase in wealth of the citizens of the People's Republic of China. And India. And Vietnam. And...

    As for Tezza, as always when she speaks, no one is the wiser vs before she started as to what she wants or means or believes.

    was that anywhere near on topic?

    You break my heart, Mr Topping. I wrote this for you. And you spurn me thus...... :)

    OK read it. Very good piece, as ever.

    I tend to side with @Jason that we will adapt and utilise rather than be sidelined. Of course there will come a time when the emerging economies, and eventually also the LDCs will be up there battling with us, but not only is that some time away (the "long run" about which I care little), but we will then also I hope be further along the curve.

    If junior lawyers' jobs are being automated, then they can move on to more value added roles. Meanwhile, listening both to the case of the guy about to be extradited to the US, and also the refusal of appeals following the change in joint enterprise law, and the associated controversies ("they got it wrong" from both sides) leads me to believe that no lawyer is going to be roboticised any time soon.

    Finally, the piece could be read (could be) as the middle classes trying to empathise with the working classes to mitigate some of the anger of the latter. The line "don't worry, as a lawyer, I will suffer also" might not be the most convincing for low skilled workers.
    That last paragraph was not my intention.

    Automation will free up junior lawyers, true. But I suspect that it will also mean fewer lawyers. Employers don't buy automation for the joy of it. They do so because they think, whether rightly or wrongly, that it will make them more efficient and reduce costs.

    As in law so elsewhere.
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    RobD said:

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    Do you remember about ten or so years ago, maybe more than that, some stores had the scanners you took around with you to scan as you put in your trolley. Then you simply returned the handset and paid the bill. Was very nice, and better than the self-checkouts we have now.

    Of course, these are all superseded by the RFID arch we will soon be going through, which will determine what we bought (by scanning the contents of our trolley), and will immediately bill us based on the RFID chip in our credit card!
    There is talk of using RFID to help keep track of the couple of hundred bits of kit on a fire engine. You drive through the arch and the scanner tells you what's missing or what you have extra. I already have a keyfob that tells SkyNet what pump I'm on, what BA set I'm wearing and what doors I've accessed in Service buildings. I'm waiting for a chip to be inserted where the sun don't shine.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2016
    Sandpit said:

    On today's biggest story, can we safely assume that the Times will run its clarification on P1 tomorrow, followed by the BBC and Sky leading the 8am bulletins with it..?

    They want to be careful otherwise they will get the ban hammer under the great internet censorship of "fake news" that appears to be the new obsession by the establishment.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.
    Computers do what they're programmed to do. Ask today's NHS IT worker in receipt of her shiny new P45!*

    *I'm assuming they fired her anyway, for crashing the whole NHS email server for a day.
    Whoever thought having a nhs_all email list that *anyone* could email was a good idea?
    I'm amazed that they have every email user in the whole NHS on one server (or server cluster), and yes obviously without enough security to restrict creating and sending to large lists in the first place.

    Have been trying to find out some more details on it today (I do IT consultancy and it's a great case study!). Hopefully more details will come out in the next few days.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    edited November 2016
    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
    That can't be true, surely? The code itself doesn't get re-written by the computer.. or does it? :o
    Yes it does. The computer generates a random set of say 1000 programs to solve a particular problem. The first batch is terrible at solving the problem. The best 10% are kept then randomly mutated to generate another 1000 programs and this goes on for thousands of generations until a program evolves that best solves the problem. It is analogous to genetic evolution - hence its name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
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    chestnut said:

    He polled strongly at the weekend (+9, if I recall) at the expense of Juppe.
    Yes, but Sarkozy is the one more at risk of missing the runoff, and his price has barely budged.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Overall wealth can only be increased by increased productivity.

    Robots should enable increased productivity and maybe shorter working hours.

    When I started work as a production engineer in a factory in the 1960s I worked 44 hours per week.

    When I finsihed as Head of Strategy for one of the big banks in the 2000s I was working far longer hours despite the vast increase in productivity in the meantime.

    In the last ten years, productivity growth in the Uk has come to a halt. If we are to increase overall wealth we ned to increase productivity. Bring on the robots.



    That is something of a conundrum, productivity has stalled even with modern IT and robots.

    I suspect we spend too much time on the internet.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    edited November 2016

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    I was in a Waitrose last week, and thought their hand scanner was rubbish - kept hangings ringing up twice or not at all and in serious need of better UI design - and of course, like all these things, tied to the loyalty card so your efforts also help with their data mining.

    In the US, McDonalds are now developing automated order takers and robotic order assemblers, in part spurred on by California's raising of the minimum wage to $15/hr.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    chestnut said:

    He polled strongly at the weekend (+9, if I recall) at the expense of Juppe.
    Yes, but Sarkozy is the one more at risk of missing the runoff, and his price has barely budged.
    There is a problem.

    Polls of French primaries are very difficult to be accurate, no one knows who exactly will participate.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2016
    OT: the real grumbling will come when automation finally makes it's way into the public sector (education/NHS), some of which seems stuck in the last century with it's processes, diagnostics etc.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
    That can't be true, surely? The code itself doesn't get re-written by the computer.. or does it? :o
    Yes it does. The computer generates a random set of say 1000 programs to solve a particular problem. The first batch is terrible at solving the problem. The best 10% are kept then randomly mutated to generate another 1000 programs and this goes on for thousands of generations until a program evolves that best solves the problem. It is analogous to genetic evolution - hence its name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
    You can also use genetic algorithms to optimise neural network architectures to best perform specific pattern recognition tasks (eg face recognition or gait recognition). It isn't like programming in Basic or Fortran or c#. It is revolutionary and will eventually take humans out of the loop.
  • Options
    chestnut said:

    OT: the real grumbling will come when automation finally makes it's way into the public sector (education/NHS), some of which seems stuck in the last century with it's processes, diagnostics etc.

    I'm hoping for some sort of exoskeleton, so I can keep working past my retirement date. Should help me make light work of a bin fire.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
    That can't be true, surely? The code itself doesn't get re-written by the computer.. or does it? :o
    Yes. As I understand it, genetic algorithms (see JH Holland) simply evolve to best fit. Neural networks randomly generate pathways that are then pruned against historical data.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    RobD said:

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    Do you remember about ten or so years ago, maybe more than that, some stores had the scanners you took around with you to scan as you put in your trolley. Then you simply returned the handset and paid the bill. Was very nice, and better than the self-checkouts we have now.

    Of course, these are all superseded by the RFID arch we will soon be going through, which will determine what we bought (by scanning the contents of our trolley), and will immediately bill us based on the RFID chip in our credit card!
    There is talk of using RFID to help keep track of the couple of hundred bits of kit on a fire engine. You drive through the arch and the scanner tells you what's missing or what you have extra. I already have a keyfob that tells SkyNet what pump I'm on, what BA set I'm wearing and what doors I've accessed in Service buildings. I'm waiting for a chip to be inserted where the sun don't shine.
    Do you work for the Kent Fire Service ?
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    surbiton said:

    RobD said:

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    Do you remember about ten or so years ago, maybe more than that, some stores had the scanners you took around with you to scan as you put in your trolley. Then you simply returned the handset and paid the bill. Was very nice, and better than the self-checkouts we have now.

    Of course, these are all superseded by the RFID arch we will soon be going through, which will determine what we bought (by scanning the contents of our trolley), and will immediately bill us based on the RFID chip in our credit card!
    There is talk of using RFID to help keep track of the couple of hundred bits of kit on a fire engine. You drive through the arch and the scanner tells you what's missing or what you have extra. I already have a keyfob that tells SkyNet what pump I'm on, what BA set I'm wearing and what doors I've accessed in Service buildings. I'm waiting for a chip to be inserted where the sun don't shine.
    Do you work for the Kent Fire Service ?
    Fortunately not!
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    Barnesian said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    If Robots are making humanity redundant, then destroy them.

    If robots are better than us, do we deserve to exist?
    No creation is as perfect as it's creator.
    There will always be something overlooked or missing.
    Genetic algorithms fill the cracks.
    Yeah, in every disaster in the last 10-15 years algorithms have been behind them.

    It certainly proves computers can screw up as much as humans.

    The algorithms are designed by humans.
    Genetic algorithms evolve themselves. Neural networks eg that recognise speech are not programmed but are trained. Many software processes that we depend on are not understood in detail by any human.
    That can't be true, surely? The code itself doesn't get re-written by the computer.. or does it? :o
    Yes it does. The computer generates a random set of say 1000 programs to solve a particular problem. The first batch is terrible at solving the problem. The best 10% are kept then randomly mutated to generate another 1000 programs and this goes on for thousands of generations until a program evolves that best solves the problem. It is analogous to genetic evolution - hence its name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
    Garbage in garbage out.

    No wonder when algorithms fail they fail spectacularly.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Company meeting regarding "Workie" tommorow.

    We're all on the pension scheme (16.7% , 7.5 / 7.5) anyway.

    Will try and work out my XIRR tonight on it ;)
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    Very good header Cyclefree.

    Change is coming ever more quickly. But politicians are not good at dealing with change.

    Political pressure groups always tend to favour the status quo ( e.g. Hospitals, jobs). Coping with change and uncertainty is not easy (remember the Chinese curse?)

    What we need is brave (in the yes minister sense) politicians able to go out on a limb and be creative.

    Does anyone spring to mind?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    edited November 2016

    RobD said:

    Whilst it's hardly SkyNet, I'd take self scanning in supermarkets as a prime example. When the first scanners appeared in my local Tesco, I made a point of ignoring them. I took the moral high ground about keeping people in jobs and interacting with actual humans.
    Now, I breeze past, flash my phone at the console, pick up a scanner and do my shopping without ever having to talk to another human being, unless I've bought some booze or razor blades.
    At Waitrose, it's even easier, just use my phone. It is a bit annoying having to ask someone behind the desk for a cup so I can abuse the free coffee, though.

    Do you remember about ten or so years ago, maybe more than that, some stores had the scanners you took around with you to scan as you put in your trolley. Then you simply returned the handset and paid the bill. Was very nice, and better than the self-checkouts we have now.

    Of course, these are all superseded by the RFID arch we will soon be going through, which will determine what we bought (by scanning the contents of our trolley), and will immediately bill us based on the RFID chip in our credit card!
    There is talk of using RFID to help keep track of the couple of hundred bits of kit on a fire engine. You drive through the arch and the scanner tells you what's missing or what you have extra. I already have a keyfob that tells SkyNet what pump I'm on, what BA set I'm wearing and what doors I've accessed in Service buildings. I'm waiting for a chip to be inserted where the sun don't shine.
    That's a bloody good idea, acts as a good check that everything's in place before the call comes, and to catch errors in the processes. Not sure you'd want it to replace the BA Board entirely for a while though!
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215

    When employment is at record levels in Britain, it is quirky to worry about machines destroying jobs and wealth in the short term. Technology will free up humans to do more of hitherto unappreciated but newly valued activities. Different skills will be required so some will be losers (including many lawyers) but there will be other winners.

    Much greater and cheaper computerisation will make it easier for all of us to convert our ideas into reality. That would lead to a huge upsurge in creativity and innovation. Britain's skills base is well suited to exploit such a world.

    I wasn't thinking of the short-term. I can see the opportunities. But any change is necessarily disruptive and I wonder whether those who have, on the whole, benefited from the economic order of the last few decades are quite as prepared for how it will impact them.

    Lawyers, for instance, have a tendency to overstate the mysteries and difficulties of the law and why only people with their special skills can possibly understand it. But if you can have a programme which can assess - based on the name of the judge, the particular court and various other factors - the chances of winning a patent action (and I've heard of but not tested it), how many patent disputes lawyers do you need rather than claims adjusters?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,447
    glw said:

    FF43 said:

    In as much as Brexit is a rejection of globalisation, it does a great disservice to those that supposedly were the motivation for it.

    I don't think people are rejecting globalisation per se, they simply want a variant of it that doesn't make them personally poorer. Expecting people to support something the sees their job abolished or move overseas, or that sees their earnings suppressed or lowered, well that's a non-starter. You would have to be incredibly committed to seeing the lives of Chinese and Indian people improve to be willing to become poorer yourself as a consequence.

    If — huge fantastic great IF — we can figure out a way of looking after our own and promoting trade we will all be a lot happier. Maybe we can't do that, but we sure as hell ought to at least try.

    I have friends who have have their gross pay has collapsed over the last decade. Working class is a stereotype, but I suppose that is what they are. One guy has changed industries 3 times, re-training and starting again. He is on minimum wage plus a pound or 2. In each case, the industry in question is now stereotypically (ha!) immigrant staffed.

    The most remarkable thing, to me, is that he is socially liberal and not angry.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    chestnut said:

    OT: the real grumbling will come when automation finally makes it's way into the public sector (education/NHS), some of which seems stuck in the last century with it's processes, diagnostics etc.

    Those will be the last to go automated. aspects of physical and psychological care are hardest to get right.

    I have a cousin who works in artificial intelligence for a major bank, and in his circles there is real discussion of the pointof lift off, when the machines become self evolving. They have seen the movie and know where it is leading.

    We will probably become extinct first, having lost interest in each other screwing sex robots in virtual reality in preference.

  • Options

    When employment is at record levels in Britain, it is quirky to worry about machines destroying jobs and wealth in the short term. Technology will free up humans to do more of hitherto unappreciated but newly valued activities. Different skills will be required so some will be losers (including many lawyers) but there will be other winners.

    Much greater and cheaper computerisation will make it easier for all of us to convert our ideas into reality. That would lead to a huge upsurge in creativity and innovation. Britain's skills base is well suited to exploit such a world.

    Yes, I'd largely agree with you. The same basic argument about machines making humans superfluous has been repeated over and again since the days of the Luddites, and yet here we are, with close to full employment. Nevertheless, I'd suggest that a couple of social shifts in direction are warranted.

    Firstly, the moral insistence that everybody must work to support themselves is becoming antiquated. There is simply no need for it when so much can be automated. So let's get on and introduce a Citizens' Income.

    Secondly, taxation needs to be shifted away from labour and towards raw materials and emissions in order to mitigate environmental degradation and resource depletion. These, rather than unemployment, will be the main problems facing our children.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    edited November 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    When employment is at record levels in Britain, it is quirky to worry about machines destroying jobs and wealth in the short term. Technology will free up humans to do more of hitherto unappreciated but newly valued activities. Different skills will be required so some will be losers (including many lawyers) but there will be other winners.

    Much greater and cheaper computerisation will make it easier for all of us to convert our ideas into reality. That would lead to a huge upsurge in creativity and innovation. Britain's skills base is well suited to exploit such a world.

    I wasn't thinking of the short-term. I can see the opportunities. But any change is necessarily disruptive and I wonder whether those who have, on the whole, benefited from the economic order of the last few decades are quite as prepared for how it will impact them.

    Lawyers, for instance, have a tendency to overstate the mysteries and difficulties of the law and why only people with their special skills can possibly understand it. But if you can have a programme which can assess - based on the name of the judge, the particular court and various other factors - the chances of winning a patent action (and I've heard of but not tested it), how many patent disputes lawyers do you need rather than claims adjusters?
    Patent lawyers talk in their own language of weird words, phrases and meanings, that I'm sure only exist to keep outsiders away from the process and the fees coming in!

    Great article by the way, makes a happy change from Brexit and Trump :)
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    The most remarkable thing, to me, is that he is socially liberal and not angry.

    He might get angry when he can't change industry again.
  • Options

    chestnut said:

    OT: the real grumbling will come when automation finally makes it's way into the public sector (education/NHS), some of which seems stuck in the last century with it's processes, diagnostics etc.

    Those will be the last to go automated. aspects of physical and psychological care are hardest to get right.

    I have a cousin who works in artificial intelligence for a major bank, and in his circles there is real discussion of the pointof lift off, when the machines become self evolving. They have seen the movie and know where it is leading.

    We will probably become extinct first, having lost interest in each other screwing sex robots in virtual reality in preference.

    I wonder what a weekend pass for West World will actually cost? I'd like Viking World better, though
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    Speedy said:

    Overall wealth can only be increased by increased productivity.

    Robots should enable increased productivity and maybe shorter working hours.

    When I started work as a production engineer in a factory in the 1960s I worked 44 hours per week.

    When I finsihed as Head of Strategy for one of the big banks in the 2000s I was working far longer hours despite the vast increase in productivity in the meantime.

    In the last ten years, productivity growth in the Uk has come to a halt. If we are to increase overall wealth we ned to increase productivity. Bring on the robots.



    That is something of a conundrum, productivity has stalled even with modern IT and robots.

    I suspect we spend too much time on the internet.
    I think stalled average productivity is a changing mix effect caused by a shift from high value activities (manufacturing) to low value activities (call centres, shelf filling).

    Take a population of 100 workers.
    80 workers produce 10 units of value.
    20 workers produce only 5 units of value.
    So average productivity is 9.0 units per worker.

    Increase productivity of both sets of workers by 20% but change the mix to 50/50.
    50 workers produce 12 units of value.
    50 workers produce 6 units of value.
    So average productivity is now still 9.0 units per worker, even though the productivity of both sectors have increased by 20%.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    I have found out that there is always a weakness in such systems, we give them 100% trust even when they are not 100% perfect and can never be 100% perfect.

    You can always exploit the bugs for your own advantage.
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