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  • Options
    John Bolton as Secretary of State. Seriously?

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_582a314ee4b02d21bbca46b2?
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.
    Wiki states that:
    In November 1984 Reagan was re-elected, winning 49 of 50 states. The president's overwhelming victory saw Mondale carry only his home state of Minnesota (by 3,800 votes) and the District of Columbia. Reagan won a record 525 electoral votes, the most of any candidate in United States history and received 59% of the popular vote to Mondale's 41%.
    Bush was on the ticket (he was Reagan's VP)
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    Popbitch was saying last week that a song called "we're sorry that we left the EU" is attempting to be the British entry.
    It's high time the UK stopped bankrolling the show.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.
    Wiki states that:
    In November 1984 Reagan was re-elected, winning 49 of 50 states. The president's overwhelming victory saw Mondale carry only his home state of Minnesota (by 3,800 votes) and the District of Columbia. Reagan won a record 525 electoral votes, the most of any candidate in United States history and received 59% of the popular vote to Mondale's 41%.
    VP?


    Is the usual nonsense sophistry.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,954
    edited November 2016
    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    POAWAS.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/ECKP91013

    Might be a while before Hobart gets another Test Match.

    LOL!!! The Saffers let them get 25 more runs first time out than England did last year though, but in their defence we were playing at home!
    I see voges average is down to a measly 61. He's reached 20 matches, so he should retire though, meaning he'll be near the top of the best averages list.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    edited November 2016

    AndyJS said:
    There's gonna be a lot of worried fridge salesmen....
    Jim@washingmachinesalesmen.com wants to meet up with me from that site.
    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    Since I last looked at that spreadsheet, Virginia has moved from being a swing state to being a non-swing state!
    The Democrat counties are incredibly slow at counting there.
  • Options
    Mr. Sandpit, aye. Bit miffed that the forecast I saw was as wrong as wrong could be, so my bets were not very good. A good race to watch in highlights, I suspect.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    Popbitch was saying last week that a song called "we're sorry that we left the EU" is attempting to be the British entry.
    It's high time the UK stopped bankrolling the show.
    Agreed. Or change the way it scores the entries. Base it on actual sales or something.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.
    Wiki states that:
    In November 1984 Reagan was re-elected, winning 49 of 50 states. The president's overwhelming victory saw Mondale carry only his home state of Minnesota (by 3,800 votes) and the District of Columbia. Reagan won a record 525 electoral votes, the most of any candidate in United States history and received 59% of the popular vote to Mondale's 41%.
    And who was his VP?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Off-topic:

    The route for HS2 second phase is more settled. Well, except for a place in Yorkshire where HS2 have mucked up, to put it politely. Apparently Ed Miliband "is not best pleased": is that more than being a trifle annoyed or less than slightly peeved?

    More importantly, £900 million of contracts for the first phase to Birmingham have been handed out to three consortiums.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-route-to-the-east-midlands-leeds-and-manchester-set-out-by-the-government

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37981840

    It's happening.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975

    John Bolton as Secretary of State. Seriously?

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_582a314ee4b02d21bbca46b2?

    Don't go booking a holiday to Tehran any time soon !
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    edited November 2016

    Off-topic:

    The route for HS2 second phase is more settled. Well, except for a place in Yorkshire where HS2 have mucked up, to put it politely. Apparently Ed Miliband "is not best pleased": is that more than being a trifle annoyed or less than slightly peeved?

    More importantly, £900 million of contracts for the first phase to Birmingham have been handed out to three consortiums.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-route-to-the-east-midlands-leeds-and-manchester-set-out-by-the-government

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37981840

    It's happening.

    Is there any 'provisional' route for Yorkshire ?

    It was going to go through the bottom of my village, now it'll go over the top I think.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
    I watched the highlights this morning. A brilliant drive by Hamilton, but an astounding one by Max. If Red Bull produce a better car next year he's in for a shout at the championship.

    However: he was really lucky on Sunday. Really, really lucky on several occasions, and not just his big moment at the ?last? corner. He's doing what Schumacher did early in his career: telling other drivers that you either let him past or he'll have you both off. It wasn't a pleasant trait twenty years ago, and the rules have tightened against it since.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TOPPING said:

    Is it just me who thinks that however much of a shocker his presidency might or might not be, Trump has more genuine international exposure than many recent POTUSs and including HRC.

    Trump certainly likes Eastern Europeans!
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
    Dream on.
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
    The question is - Who has the real power?
    For me it's going to be the member states, and not the commission. The member states will look to avoid economic shocks that will lead to serious Anti EU movements in their own countries from becoming a worse handful. In the end, politics is local, and people who are struggling economically will look to new solutions and blame old structures.
  • Options
    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA
  • Options

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.

    What a great stat!

    Are there any Nixon offspring available for 2020?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357
    The government has no overall Brexit plan and a negotiating strategy may not be agreed by the cabinet for six months, a leaked memo has suggested. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    chestnut said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    But I'd been assured repeatedly that the EU would be desperate to do a deal with Britain.
    Hopefully, what both sides are saying now is pre-negotiation bluster, and when it comes down to actual negotiations - led by the member states rather than the EU bureaucracy - the more pragmatic and conciliatory approach which is in everyone's best interests will prevail.

    But we need to make it clear that we will walk if necessary, the former PM failing to do that before his last negotiations is what led us here in the first place!
    The EU will turn on itself.

    The remainer focus on the repercussions here tends to ignore the repercussions over there.

    The EUrocracy signed up to the Church of Scientology of trade arrangements. Which was fine whilst everybody believed, its recruiters were doing a fine job of finding more and more willing to join and its "churches" were ever-expanding in new countries. That there may have been other religions out there didn't matter, because members' ability to talk to other traders was clamped down on using some basic thuggery. There was only the one true faith. The one true integrated Europe. It would provide for all your needs. The further you climbed up the scale of belief in Europe, the more that its secrets would be opened up to you.

    Then they initiated a currency of Church of Scientology vouchers, at a fixed rate across the EU. Which was fine for Germany and France and a couple of others. A few around the edges refused to use these vouchers, which was annoying but not terminal. They'd be assimilated over time into their currency of belief.

    And the scheme worked fine. For a while. But then, one member stopped believing (if it ever had). And that is when the Church of Scientology shows its true colours... It has a fear, a great fear - that people might start doubting their faith. Might think there are other possible trade arrangements out there.

    That fear is justified.
  • Options

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933
    TonyE said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
    The question is - Who has the real power?
    For me it's going to be the member states, and not the commission. The member states will look to avoid economic shocks that will lead to serious Anti EU movements in their own countries from becoming a worse handful. In the end, politics is local, and people who are struggling economically will look to new solutions and blame old structures.
    Agreed. The Germans especially I can't see being unnecessarily vindictive, they will be under political pressure at home from their key exporters to make a deal work for them. Ditto the French and the Irish. Interesting times ahead.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    edited November 2016

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.

    What a great stat!

    Are there any Nixon offspring available for 2020?
    Not that I can see.

    There is potentially a Kennedy at some point in the future for the Democrats.

    The name should be worth about 10 million votes on its own.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Interesting stuff

    "Last but not least, Donald Trump is set to tackle one of the problems raised by Bernie Sanders — crippling student loans. Trump has proposed capping student loans at 12.5 percent of a student’s income per month, with full debt forgiveness after 15 years.

    The proposed reform has some conservatives up in arms, who point out that forgiveness after 15 years, as opposed to the current system of forgiveness after 20, will reduce the incentive for students to choose their degrees more carefully. But Trump’s team have also hinted that his administration will take student choices – good and bad – into account.

    According to Sam Clovis’ comments to Inside Higher Ed, Trump plans to ensure that colleges have “skin in the game,” sharing a loan’s risk with students and taking a role in the approval process. This will ensure that college administrations think more carefully about letting students take out a six-figure loan for a course in Feminist Dance Therapy. I mean, it’s unlikely they’ll get any of that money back if a student’s most likely career paths are burger-flipping and blogging."

    http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/11/14/donald-trump-save-american-university/
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    On top of that now they have to digest the implications of President Trump.
  • Options
    "3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday."

    To be fair, the third "delusion" got a bit of a boost last week.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Trump has been watching too much game of thrones.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    chestnut said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    But I'd been assured repeatedly that the EU would be desperate to do a deal with Britain.
    Hopefully, what both sides are saying now is pre-negotiation bluster, and when it comes down to actual negotiations - led by the member states rather than the EU bureaucracy - the more pragmatic and conciliatory approach which is in everyone's best interests will prevail.

    But we need to make it clear that we will walk if necessary, the former PM failing to do that before his last negotiations is what led us here in the first place!
    The EU will turn on itself.

    The remainer focus on the repercussions here tends to ignore the repercussions over there.

    The EUrocracy signed up to the Church of Scientology of trade arrangements. Which was fine whilst everybody believed, its recruiters were doing a fine job of finding more and more willing to join and its "churches" were ever-expanding in new countries. That there may have been other religions out there didn't matter, because members' ability to talk to other traders was clamped down on using some basic thuggery. There was only the one true faith. The one true integrated Europe. It would provide for all your needs. The further you climbed up the scale of belief in Europe, the more that its secrets would be opened up to you.

    Then they initiated a currency of Church of Scientology vouchers, at a fixed rate across the EU. Which was fine for Germany and France and a couple of others. A few around the edges refused to use these vouchers, which was annoying but not terminal. They'd be assimilated over time into their currency of belief.

    And the scheme worked fine. For a while. But then, one member stopped believing (if it ever had). And that is when the Church of Scientology shows its true colours... It has a fear, a great fear - that people might start doubting their faith. Might think there are other possible trade arrangements out there.

    That fear is justified.
    :lol:
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Trump has been watching too much game of thrones.
    So have the voters. Hillary got invited to the Red wedding..... In Wisconsin.
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    TonyE said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
    The question is - Who has the real power?
    For me it's going to be the member states, and not the commission. The member states will look to avoid economic shocks that will lead to serious Anti EU movements in their own countries from becoming a worse handful. In the end, politics is local, and people who are struggling economically will look to new solutions and blame old structures.
    The programme interviewed politicians and journalists in the Netherlands, France, Germany and the Czech Republic. In each case, for domestic political reasons, there was no willingness to give the UK a special deal that breaks the four freedoms.

    You may not like it, but 'Brussels' is not the problem here.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    The Reps have not won the popular vote without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket since 1928.

    What a great stat!

    Are there any Nixon offspring available for 2020?
    Not that I can see.

    There is potentially a Kennedy at some point in the future for the Democrats.

    The name should be worth about 10 million votes on its own.
    320 million Americans, but the only people who can be trusted to rule in the modern era are families called Bush, Clinton. Kennedy and Obama. No wonder the poor feckers voted Trump!
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    IanB2 said:

    The government has no overall Brexit plan and a negotiating strategy may not be agreed by the cabinet for six months, a leaked memo has suggested. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

    I would not be taking much notice of this really. We all know that there are people with particular agendas inside both Civil Service and Government, and it wouldn't be entirely unusual for a document to written in a particular way simply because it is intended to leak. The Blair government used that consistently as a tactical tool.

    The way that both the Guardian and BBC have written this up gives the impression that the memo is a deliberate 'Blunt tool'
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Trump has been watching too much game of thrones.
    So have the voters. Hillary got invited to the Red wedding..... In Wisconsin.
    The family business is a concern. There's not even an imp to keep the house of Trump honest.
  • Options

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Private email servers add to the gaiety of the nation, especially as we see the indignation at Hillary from people who couldn't give a damn about Michael Gove doing the same thing. Whatever happened to Gove, btw? No memoirs for Christmas; no newspaper column; no photo-ops with the president-elect. Where is he?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    Usually, though, the ECV goes to the winner of the popular vote.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    So Lord Mayor of London says Brexit = Great Fire of London.

    Kaayyyy.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    Plus he said the UK isn't going to have a deal like everyone else's.

    Ours will be "off the shelf".

    Dear God..
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    So glad I bought shares in "betrayal"

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/798447448049885184
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    Interesting stuff

    "Last but not least, Donald Trump is set to tackle one of the problems raised by Bernie Sanders — crippling student loans. Trump has proposed capping student loans at 12.5 percent of a student’s income per month, with full debt forgiveness after 15 years.

    The proposed reform has some conservatives up in arms, who point out that forgiveness after 15 years, as opposed to the current system of forgiveness after 20, will reduce the incentive for students to choose their degrees more carefully. But Trump’s team have also hinted that his administration will take student choices – good and bad – into account.

    According to Sam Clovis’ comments to Inside Higher Ed, Trump plans to ensure that colleges have “skin in the game,” sharing a loan’s risk with students and taking a role in the approval process. This will ensure that college administrations think more carefully about letting students take out a six-figure loan for a course in Feminist Dance Therapy. I mean, it’s unlikely they’ll get any of that money back if a student’s most likely career paths are burger-flipping and blogging."

    http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/11/14/donald-trump-save-american-university/

    Income-contingent student loan repayments. Sounds like, erm, here. Tbh I've not understood why we do not extend the idea of income-contingent repayments to other things.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    That's remarkable voting efficiency for Trump.

    It looks like the Republicans led in voting for the House by about 3%, so there was some ticket-splitting.
    What I take from that spreadsheet is that the relative value of a vote in California against most of the flyover states is why we have President elect Trump. Clinton won California by over 3m votes. But the rewards were more modest than they should be.
    If all States allocated their EC votes proportionately, my estimate of the result is Trump 266, Clinton 265, Johnson 5, Stein and Mcmullin 1 each.
    Interesting. So Trump's efficiency of vote overcomes Clinton's lead in the popular vote regardless? But why do Americans think it is ok that some votes are worth so much more than others? Its like some of the more bizarre arguments against equal seat sizes here.
    It comes down to every State having at least one Representative, plus equal representation in the Senate.

    Hitherto, it's not been a problem as it hasn't favoured one party over the other. But, it would surely become a problem if the Republicans regularly won despite fewer votes nationwide.

    They have only won the popular vote once since 1988.
    Usually, though, the ECV goes to the winner of the popular vote.
    Only a 60% hit rate this millennium.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
    I watched the highlights this morning. A brilliant drive by Hamilton, but an astounding one by Max. If Red Bull produce a better car next year he's in for a shout at the championship.

    However: he was really lucky on Sunday. Really, really lucky on several occasions, and not just his big moment at the ?last? corner. He's doing what Schumacher did early in his career: telling other drivers that you either let him past or he'll have you both off. It wasn't a pleasant trait twenty years ago, and the rules have tightened against it since.
    I think a wet race is a great leveller of car performance, and brings the best performances out from the best drivers. Yes there's a chance of something happening, but to a large extent the drivers make their own luck and Max came very close to binning it at one point.

    The young lad is a revelation for the sport though, which desperately needs some excitement, overtaking, and maybe even the odd crash. The modern cars are too reliable (although Lewis may disagree!) and too easy to drive, hopefully next year's cars will be more of a handful. With luck and hard work, Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren should all be fighting for race wins in 2017.

    Looking forward to watching the last race live ;)
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    chestnut said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    But I'd been assured repeatedly that the EU would be desperate to do a deal with Britain.
    Hopefully, what both sides are saying now is pre-negotiation bluster, and when it comes down to actual negotiations - led by the member states rather than the EU bureaucracy - the more pragmatic and conciliatory approach which is in everyone's best interests will prevail.

    But we need to make it clear that we will walk if necessary, the former PM failing to do that before his last negotiations is what led us here in the first place!
    The EU will turn on itself.

    The remainer focus on the repercussions here tends to ignore the repercussions over there.

    The EUrocracy signed up to the Church of Scientology of trade arrangements. Which was fine whilst everybody believed, its recruiters were doing a fine job of finding more and more willing to join and its "churches" were ever-expanding in new countries. That there may have been other religions out there didn't matter, because members' ability to talk to other traders was clamped down on using some basic thuggery. There was only the one true faith. The one true integrated Europe. It would provide for all your needs. The further you climbed up the scale of belief in Europe, the more that its secrets would be opened up to you.

    Then they initiated a currency of Church of Scientology vouchers, at a fixed rate across the EU. Which was fine for Germany and France and a couple of others. A few around the edges refused to use these vouchers, which was annoying but not terminal. They'd be assimilated over time into their currency of belief.

    And the scheme worked fine. For a while. But then, one member stopped believing (if it ever had). And that is when the Church of Scientology shows its true colours... It has a fear, a great fear - that people might start doubting their faith. Might think there are other possible trade arrangements out there.

    That fear is justified.
    :lol:
    for god's sake don't set Tom cruise on us
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,776
    Scott_P said:
    The alternate view is that Farage is deliberately undermining HMG's relations with a foreign government.
    Traitor, anyone ?
    :-)
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,870
    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Do you want to explain how you're going to 'Shelve' something that the British public has voted for?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Surrender monkey.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Michael Adler
    Just settled a divorce over visitation of a parrot. Neither may teach it negative phrases about the other. I went to law school for this.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933
    edited November 2016

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Private email servers add to the gaiety of the nation, especially as we see the indignation at Hillary from people who couldn't give a damn about Michael Gove doing the same thing. Whatever happened to Gove, btw? No memoirs for Christmas; no newspaper column; no photo-ops with the president-elect. Where is he?
    What Gove was doing at Education was slightly different, he was using free mail addresses to talk to political staff in his departmen - as the govt system was compromised by the permanent staff. Nothing classified or militarily sensitive though, but still wrong on principle I agree.
    He does seem to have disappeared, but he did what needed to be done and saved the nation from Prime Minister Boris!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,776

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
    I watched the highlights this morning. A brilliant drive by Hamilton, but an astounding one by Max. If Red Bull produce a better car next year he's in for a shout at the championship.

    However: he was really lucky on Sunday. Really, really lucky on several occasions, and not just his big moment at the ?last? corner. He's doing what Schumacher did early in his career: telling other drivers that you either let him past or he'll have you both off. It wasn't a pleasant trait twenty years ago, and the rules have tightened against it since.
    I think that's a little harsh. He was certainly robust, but on this occasion I thought he didn't cross the line of acceptability in the way he has done before. He's definitely not the full Schumacher.
    One also has to take into account that his tyres were around 26 laps fresher than most of those he overtook (a huge advantage interns of grip)... with the exception of his teammate. Ricciardo got a bit of a monstering.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Err, no. The people were consulted directly and gave their answer to the politicians.

    The politicians now have two choices, they either implement the decision of the People, or they stand aside for those who will.
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    You do know that Member States have a veto over the final deal, don't you?
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    The Telegraph: Donald Trump 'exploring giving top secret clearances for his children' as New York police grapple with security concerns. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8M3zuDA

    Is that so they can print off his emails and faxes?
    I wondered why they couldn't just have their own servers? It's clearly no biggie....
    Private email servers add to the gaiety of the nation, especially as we see the indignation at Hillary from people who couldn't give a damn about Michael Gove doing the same thing. Whatever happened to Gove, btw? No memoirs for Christmas; no newspaper column; no photo-ops with the president-elect. Where is he?
    He writes in The Times.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    edited November 2016

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    You do know that Member States have a veto over the final deal, don't you?
    In which case if they block, it goes to WTO terms.

    Is that what you want, Germany? Cuz that's what you'll get....
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    PlatoSaid said:

    Interesting stuff

    "Last but not least, Donald Trump is set to tackle one of the problems raised by Bernie Sanders — crippling student loans. Trump has proposed capping student loans at 12.5 percent of a student’s income per month, with full debt forgiveness after 15 years.

    The proposed reform has some conservatives up in arms, who point out that forgiveness after 15 years, as opposed to the current system of forgiveness after 20, will reduce the incentive for students to choose their degrees more carefully. But Trump’s team have also hinted that his administration will take student choices – good and bad – into account.

    According to Sam Clovis’ comments to Inside Higher Ed, Trump plans to ensure that colleges have “skin in the game,” sharing a loan’s risk with students and taking a role in the approval process. This will ensure that college administrations think more carefully about letting students take out a six-figure loan for a course in Feminist Dance Therapy. I mean, it’s unlikely they’ll get any of that money back if a student’s most likely career paths are burger-flipping and blogging."

    http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/11/14/donald-trump-save-american-university/

    Income-contingent student loan repayments. Sounds like, erm, here. Tbh I've not understood why we do not extend the idea of income-contingent repayments to other things.
    What sort of things are you thinking about?
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    Bad Brexit is better than impotent and inflexible membership of an ever closer federal union with increasingly divergent interests, but with no let up in interest in interfering in our affairs.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357

    TonyE said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    There are three Brexit delusions, not all held by the same people: 1. Brexit won't happen. 2. The EU will give us what we want. 3, the EU doesn't matter because Britain will be part of a new world order.

    The first two delusions are falling away; the third is being clung to for the time being. Rather desperately so, judging by Mrs May's speech yesterday.
    On the second delusion, an interesting Radio 4 Analysis last night. Politics will trump (no pun) economics, there is no appetite in EU member states for giving us a good deal.

    Nul points nailed on in this year's Eurovision.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082fjkh
    If there's genuinely no appetite within the member states for a reasonable deal, then we should just walk away and get out quickly. Let them deal with the €100bn trade deficit and the €12bn EU budget deficit.

    I still think the pragmatists will prevail over the absolutists though, on both sides.
    The question is - Who has the real power?
    For me it's going to be the member states, and not the commission. The member states will look to avoid economic shocks that will lead to serious Anti EU movements in their own countries from becoming a worse handful. In the end, politics is local, and people who are struggling economically will look to new solutions and blame old structures.
    The programme interviewed politicians and journalists in the Netherlands, France, Germany and the Czech Republic. In each case, for domestic political reasons, there was no willingness to give the UK a special deal that breaks the four freedoms.

    You may not like it, but 'Brussels' is not the problem here.
    Exactly right!

    During the referendum, the leavers were falling over themselves to argue that, notwithstanding all the economic arguments to the contrary, leaving the EU was the right thing to do for a mix of political and emotional reasons.

    Since the referendum, the same leavers appear to think that the EU, and EU nations, will decide the Brexit deal on the basis of the mutually most favourable economic outcome, and that political and emotional considerations won't come into it at all.

    Dream on!
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic:

    The route for HS2 second phase is more settled. Well, except for a place in Yorkshire where HS2 have mucked up, to put it politely. Apparently Ed Miliband "is not best pleased": is that more than being a trifle annoyed or less than slightly peeved?

    More importantly, £900 million of contracts for the first phase to Birmingham have been handed out to three consortiums.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-route-to-the-east-midlands-leeds-and-manchester-set-out-by-the-government

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37981840

    It's happening.

    Is there any 'provisional' route for Yorkshire ?

    It was going to go through the bottom of my village, now it'll go over the top I think.
    I think it depends on which part of Yorkshire you're in: if you're anywhere near Sheffield then the chances are they've not decided yet. Which is a bit troubling, to put it mildly. In fact, there are several areas where they're reconsidering changes, although the Sheffield change appears the largest.

    In Nick Palmer's parish, the Toton station's been moved a 150 metres south (which is pretty much an irrelevance) and I think the line's been moved a few metres off line further north.

    And at Crewe, it looks as though they favour a 'Crewe hub' station on the site of the existing station, not one further south (which would have made connections with the south-facing lines from Crewe difficult). But the funding for Crewe hub is apparently outwith HS2's funding.

    All from a quick scan of the document...
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    Bad Brexit is better than impotent and inflexible membership of an ever closer federal union with increasingly divergent interests, but with no let up in interest in interfering in our affairs.
    If you are in a hole - particularly a self imposed one - having some friends is often quite useful.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    Bad Brexit is better than impotent and inflexible membership of an ever closer federal union with increasingly divergent interests, but with no let up in interest in interfering in our affairs.
    You need to put flesh on that argument. How bad is bad?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    You do know that Member States have a veto over the final deal, don't you?
    It doesn't alter the fact that EU membership means ever More Europe. That's not a bug, it's a feature.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818

    AndyJS said:

    Dave Wasserman of the Cook Report is doing a spreadsheet with the latest popular vote totals.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19

    Texas definitely seems to be moving towards battleground status.

    What is the minimum number of states a candidate needs in order to win the presidential election?

    Quite a few states are fairly finely balanced, the EC does make for leveraged results.

    The current Hillary states plus Texas give the Democrats 270 electoral college votes. It could be that within a couple of electoral cycles the rust belt swing states will be taken out of the equation. If Trump messes up, it may be as soon as 2020.

    Not if the Democrats lose Minnesota to the rest of the Rust Belt, and New Hampshire, which is on the edge.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
    I watched the highlights this morning. A brilliant drive by Hamilton, but an astounding one by Max. If Red Bull produce a better car next year he's in for a shout at the championship.

    However: he was really lucky on Sunday. Really, really lucky on several occasions, and not just his big moment at the ?last? corner. He's doing what Schumacher did early in his career: telling other drivers that you either let him past or he'll have you both off. It wasn't a pleasant trait twenty years ago, and the rules have tightened against it since.
    I think a wet race is a great leveller of car performance, and brings the best performances out from the best drivers. Yes there's a chance of something happening, but to a large extent the drivers make their own luck and Max came very close to binning it at one point.

    The young lad is a revelation for the sport though, which desperately needs some excitement, overtaking, and maybe even the odd crash. The modern cars are too reliable (although Lewis may disagree!) and too easy to drive, hopefully next year's cars will be more of a handful. With luck and hard work, Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren should all be fighting for race wins in 2017.

    Looking forward to watching the last race live ;)
    Enjoy the race! I hope it's a good one.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357
    PlatoSaid said:

    Michael Adler
    Just settled a divorce over visitation of a parrot. Neither may teach it negative phrases about the other. I went to law school for this.

    I am sure he walked away with his pieces of eight, nevertheless.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited November 2016

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    It is time to shelve Brexit. But this is a political bomb that needs to be defused properly. It'll blow if we do nothing. The clock is ticking. But it'll also blow if we cut the wrong wire or manhandle the bomb.

    I think public opinion has to shift first on this one. The politicians need to react not lead on a u turn. So far there is no sign of the headline voting is intention figures shifting. Though the fact the " Remain " vote hasn't shrunk is remarkable.

    We also can't go back to " Remain " as was. Cameron's deal has been voided by the Council anyway and it was insufficient at the time. I've no doubt that the proposition that Leave put before the voters is in the penultimate stage of collapse. The opportunity is there. But the psychology means we can't go back to Remain. Remaining members needs presentational finesse.
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    Sandpit said:

    It seems that the EU negotiators don't share the Eurosceptic view that they have a weak hand:

    https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/798383139378917376

    No surprises there. If the EU is determined to act like the vindictive ex-wife happy to all the money go to lawyers, just so you can't keep any yourself, then we are better off out, out hard and out quickly.

    Take the short term hit and be done with it, a brighter future awaits outside.
    But I'd been assured repeatedly that the EU would be desperate to do a deal with Britain.
    Don't worry, you will definitely be told that again, depending on which side of the bed Brexiteers get out of.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,933

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Morning. I was travelling over the weekend so just watched the race this morning. More fun to watch than to drive in, I would have thought, but the result means the title goes down to the last race in a fortnight.

    Also great to see young Max charging through the field with the new tyres at the end. Put money on him being a world champion very soon indeed!
    I watched the highlights this morning. A brilliant drive by Hamilton, but an astounding one by Max. If Red Bull produce a better car next year he's in for a shout at the championship.

    However: he was really lucky on Sunday. Really, really lucky on several occasions, and not just his big moment at the ?last? corner. He's doing what Schumacher did early in his career: telling other drivers that you either let him past or he'll have you both off. It wasn't a pleasant trait twenty years ago, and the rules have tightened against it since.
    I think a wet race is a great leveller of car performance, and brings the best performances out from the best drivers. Yes there's a chance of something happening, but to a large extent the drivers make their own luck and Max came very close to binning it at one point.

    The young lad is a revelation for the sport though, which desperately needs some excitement, overtaking, and maybe even the odd crash. The modern cars are too reliable (although Lewis may disagree!) and too easy to drive, hopefully next year's cars will be more of a handful. With luck and hard work, Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren should all be fighting for race wins in 2017.

    Looking forward to watching the last race live ;)
    Enjoy the race! I hope it's a good one.
    Hope so, doubt it will be a wet one though - although stranger things have happened before!
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    matt said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Interesting stuff

    "Last but not least, Donald Trump is set to tackle one of the problems raised by Bernie Sanders — crippling student loans. Trump has proposed capping student loans at 12.5 percent of a student’s income per month, with full debt forgiveness after 15 years.

    The proposed reform has some conservatives up in arms, who point out that forgiveness after 15 years, as opposed to the current system of forgiveness after 20, will reduce the incentive for students to choose their degrees more carefully. But Trump’s team have also hinted that his administration will take student choices – good and bad – into account.

    According to Sam Clovis’ comments to Inside Higher Ed, Trump plans to ensure that colleges have “skin in the game,” sharing a loan’s risk with students and taking a role in the approval process. This will ensure that college administrations think more carefully about letting students take out a six-figure loan for a course in Feminist Dance Therapy. I mean, it’s unlikely they’ll get any of that money back if a student’s most likely career paths are burger-flipping and blogging."

    http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/11/14/donald-trump-save-american-university/

    Income-contingent student loan repayments. Sounds like, erm, here. Tbh I've not understood why we do not extend the idea of income-contingent repayments to other things.
    What sort of things are you thinking about?
    Any sort of subsidy or grant to industry, for instance. Say for start-ups, prototyping and development or compensation for acts of god. Tbh I've not spent too much time on the details and how to stop firms gaming the system -- once Philip Hammond pipped me to Chancellor, there did not seem much point. But as with student loans, the idea of subsidising good things and requiring repayment if large profits are made seems an attractive one.
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    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    Bad Brexit is better than impotent and inflexible membership of an ever closer federal union with increasingly divergent interests, but with no let up in interest in interfering in our affairs.
    You need to put flesh on that argument. How bad is bad?
    Bad means bad..
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Sean_F said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    If the EU showed any interest whatsoever in returning powers to Member States, you might have a point, but they don't, so the argument for leaving remains the same.
    You do know that Member States have a veto over the final deal, don't you?
    That's hardly an argument to show that the EU is returning power to the states. It's all about federalisation, and ever closer union these days.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited November 2016
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    It is time to shelve Brexit. But this is a political bomb that needs to be defused properly. It'll blow if we do nothing. The clock is ticking. But it'll also blow if we cut the wrong wire or manhandle the bomb.

    I think public opinion has to shift first on this one. The politicians need to react my lead on a u turn. So far there is no sign of the headline voting is intention figures shifting. Though the fact the " Remain " vote hasn't shrunk is remarkable.

    We also can't go back to " Remain " as was. Cameron's deal has been voided by the Council anyway and it was insufficient at the time. I've no doubt that the proposition that Leave put before the voters is in the penultimate stage of collapse. The opportunity is there. But the psychology means we can't go back to Remain. Remaining members needs presentational finesse.
    Trumps popularity with the Brits is what, 13%?
    So the conditions may be there for a reversal of the decision.
    Either way shit is going to happen, my instinct is still that we have to brexit and let the shit be attributed to that, rather than circumventing the EU vote.
    I am shocked by the amount of people cheering on the mob, from the foreign minister right down to commentators here. It rarely works out well.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357
    The BBC report says clearly that the report was produced by a consultant.

    The government has so much work to do on Brexit and is so unprepared that they have inevitably had to employ the major consulting firms to provide a shedload of extra bodies at short notice to do the work.

    A report from an independent consultant may well be more likely to spell out the true state of things than one prepared and edited in the normal way through several layers of civil servants.
  • Options

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Oh dear. Someone is getting emotional. There is not now and never will be a valid reason for the UK to become a part of the U.S.E. Yes, a Leave vote poses challenges. A Remain vote would have been a crossing of the event horizon into the EU black hole. From which we would never have been able to escape.
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    IanB2 said:

    The BBC report says clearly that the report was produced by a consultant.

    The government has so much work to do on Brexit and is so unprepared that they have inevitably had to employ the major consulting firms to provide a shedload of extra bodies at short notice to do the work.

    A report from an independent consultant may well be more likely to spell out the true state of things than one prepared and edited in the normal way through several layers of civil servants.
    IanB2 said:

    The BBC report says clearly that the report was produced by a consultant.

    The government has so much work to do on Brexit and is so unprepared that they have inevitably had to employ the major consulting firms to provide a shedload of extra bodies at short notice to do the work.

    A report from an independent consultant may well be more likely to spell out the true state of things than one prepared and edited in the normal way through several layers of civil servants.

    Better just consult the mob. Anything else is apparently remoaner lies.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357
    Patrick said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Oh dear. Someone is getting emotional. There is not now and never will be a valid reason for the UK to become a part of the U.S.E. Yes, a Leave vote poses challenges. A Remain vote would have been a crossing of the event horizon into the EU black hole. From which we would never have been able to escape.
    A nice touch, using the 'emotional' accusation as cover for a series of statements that certainly arent entirely rational.

    Have you seen the 'Arrival' film yet?
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818

    Thought experiment: suppose the EU elected a president with a similar electoral college system to the US. Which countries would be the "swing states"? I guess the UK would be the equivalent of Texas...

    I did 2015 with counties instead of states. It ended up something like this:

    7th May 2015, from another Timeline.

    "And the final results of the first UK General Election to be held under an Electoral College are now final, with the recounts in Derbyshire and Clwyd being completed.
    As our viewers will be aware, the UK Electoral Systems Act 2014 means that results are given by counties or Unitary Authority areas, with the number of Electoral Votes cast by each being equivalent to their former number of MPs"

    "Yes, David, and while we expect Northern Ireland to continue voting on sectarian lines as it did in the past, their only hope for real influence is if the election gets thrown to the Lords if no Party wins more than the target of 325 EVs. In that case, the Lords will choose between the leaders of the top three parties, which were widely - and correctly - expected to be David Cameron, Ed Milliband and Nicola Sturgeon"

    "Indeed, but we can now say that it won't come to that. With Derbyshire's 11 Electoral Votes and Clwyd's 7 EVs both going to the Conservatives after their recounts, David Cameron now has 337 Electoral Votes, which is enough to put him over the line."

    "Yes, David. Ed Milliband got 236 EVs, with London's 73 Electoral Votes making up nearly a third of his entire count, the SNP swept Scotland with 59 EVs, and Northern Ireland, as expected, split their Electoral votes between the DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Ulster Unionists. There will be no trade-offs before the Electoral College meets as Mr Cameron does not, in the end, require any 'lent' EVs to be sworn in"

    "The Liberal Democrats, UKIP and Green Parties were all disappointed, receiving no Electoral Votes. None of them even came close to winning any county."
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Patrick said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Oh dear. Someone is getting emotional. There is not now and never will be a valid reason for the UK to become a part of the U.S.E. Yes, a Leave vote poses challenges. A Remain vote would have been a crossing of the event horizon into the EU black hole. From which we would never have been able to escape.
    Lol. Drama, much?

    The black hole is the one of uncertainty that is about to engulf us.

    Uncertainty can lead to opportunities; however in most cases it just leads to heartache. I doubt the team we have will be able, given recent events, to make many opportunities out of the uncertainty. Especially as the cabinet is apparently divided about what "Brexit means Brexit" actually means ...

    I admire the hope and optimism of many hardcore Brexiter. Sadly the election of Trump has just made the hope and optimism seem even more misguided.

    We need this sorted ASAP.
  • Options
    nielh said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    It is time to shelve Brexit. But this is a political bomb that needs to be defused properly. It'll blow if we do nothing. The clock is ticking. But it'll also blow if we cut the wrong wire or manhandle the bomb.

    I think public opinion has to shift first on this one. The politicians need to react my lead on a u turn. So far there is no sign of the headline voting is intention figures shifting. Though the fact the " Remain " vote hasn't shrunk is remarkable.

    We also can't go back to " Remain " as was. Cameron's deal has been voided by the Council anyway and it was insufficient at the time. I've no doubt that the proposition that Leave put before the voters is in the penultimate stage of collapse. The opportunity is there. But the psychology means we can't go back to Remain. Remaining members needs presentational finesse.
    Trumps popularity with the Brits is what, 13%?
    So the conditions may be there for a reversal of the decision.
    Either way shit is going to happen, my instinct is still that we have to brexit and let the shit be attributed to that, rather than circumventing the EU vote.
    I am shocked by the amount of people cheering on the mob, from the foreign minister right down to commentators here. It rarely works out well.
    Yes. Brexit isn't an abstract. It's happening. The process is underway. It's also a rocket. It's currently shooting up but it's not achieving escape velocity. You can tell from the arc of ascent it's currently going to crash not achieve orbit. So the question is whether the public notices in time and asks for action. I'm not predicting that. But it's certainly possible looking at the polling.
  • Options

    Thought experiment: suppose the EU elected a president with a similar electoral college system to the US. Which countries would be the "swing states"? I guess the UK would be the equivalent of Texas...

    I did 2015 with counties instead of states. It ended up something like this:

    7th May 2015, from another Timeline.

    "And the final results of the first UK General Election to be held under an Electoral College are now final, with the recounts in Derbyshire and Clwyd being completed.
    As our viewers will be aware, the UK Electoral Systems Act 2014 means that results are given by counties or Unitary Authority areas, with the number of Electoral Votes cast by each being equivalent to their former number of MPs"

    "Yes, David, and while we expect Northern Ireland to continue voting on sectarian lines as it did in the past, their only hope for real influence is if the election gets thrown to the Lords if no Party wins more than the target of 325 EVs. In that case, the Lords will choose between the leaders of the top three parties, which were widely - and correctly - expected to be David Cameron, Ed Milliband and Nicola Sturgeon"

    "Indeed, but we can now say that it won't come to that. With Derbyshire's 11 Electoral Votes and Clwyd's 7 EVs both going to the Conservatives after their recounts, David Cameron now has 337 Electoral Votes, which is enough to put him over the line."

    "Yes, David. Ed Milliband got 236 EVs, with London's 73 Electoral Votes making up nearly a third of his entire count, the SNP swept Scotland with 59 EVs, and Northern Ireland, as expected, split their Electoral votes between the DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Ulster Unionists. There will be no trade-offs before the Electoral College meets as Mr Cameron does not, in the end, require any 'lent' EVs to be sworn in"

    "The Liberal Democrats, UKIP and Green Parties were all disappointed, receiving no Electoral Votes. None of them even came close to winning any county."
    Nice.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SkyNewsBreak: Office for National Statistics says consumer price inflation has fallen to 0.9% in October from 1% in September
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    The alternate view is that Farage is deliberately undermining HMG's relations with a foreign government.
    Traitor, anyone ?
    :-)
    Private diplomacy in the US is highly illegal.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    nielh said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    It is time to shelve Brexit. But this is a political bomb that needs to be defused properly. It'll blow if we do nothing. The clock is ticking. But it'll also blow if we cut the wrong wire or manhandle the bomb.

    I think public opinion has to shift first on this one. The politicians need to react my lead on a u turn. So far there is no sign of the headline voting is intention figures shifting. Though the fact the " Remain " vote hasn't shrunk is remarkable.

    We also can't go back to " Remain " as was. Cameron's deal has been voided by the Council anyway and it was insufficient at the time. I've no doubt that the proposition that Leave put before the voters is in the penultimate stage of collapse. The opportunity is there. But the psychology means we can't go back to Remain. Remaining members needs presentational finesse.
    Trumps popularity with the Brits is what, 13%?
    So the conditions may be there for a reversal of the decision.
    Either way shit is going to happen, my instinct is still that we have to brexit and let the shit be attributed to that, rather than circumventing the EU vote.
    I am shocked by the amount of people cheering on the mob, from the foreign minister right down to commentators here. It rarely works out well.
    Given the horror movie diet the MSM here feed their audience - and the same applies to the US, it really isn't worth an empty crisp packet.

    What is interesting in the US - is that despite the massive media bias against Trump - he still won. Now, one can make a variety of arguments here - is the influence of media waning that much, was their obvious bias self-destroying, would he have done a great deal better with more balanced coverage or whatever.

    The UK political landscape is well to the Left of the US in any case - so again it's apples and oranges.
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    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    The alternate view is that Farage is deliberately undermining HMG's relations with a foreign government.
    Traitor, anyone ?
    :-)
    Private diplomacy in the US is highly illegal.
    Ah yes The Logan Act.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    Who can put Farage back in his box? By undermining HMG he is working against the national interest.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    edited November 2016
    Thought this wasn't supposed to happen again, fall in CPI.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37986365
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,357
    nielh said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    On trade, security, and democracy it is a busted flush. The arguments in favour - academic at best - have been decisively Trumped.

    Our permanent interests as a maritime nation are for the freest trade and for a world of liberal democratic internationalism - from the UN to the World Bank.

    Irony or ironies, the safest vehicle for that today is the EU.

    Sorry Brexiters, you just got Trexited. You're allying yourself with demagoguery, isolationism and kleptocracy. Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    It is time to shelve Brexit. But this is a political bomb that needs to be defused properly. It'll blow if we do nothing. The clock is ticking. But it'll also blow if we cut the wrong wire or manhandle the bomb.

    I think public opinion has to shift first on this one. The politicians need to react my lead on a u turn. So far there is no sign of the headline voting is intention figures shifting. Though the fact the " Remain " vote hasn't shrunk is remarkable.

    We also can't go back to " Remain " as was. Cameron's deal has been voided by the Council anyway and it was insufficient at the time. I've no doubt that the proposition that Leave put before the voters is in the penultimate stage of collapse. The opportunity is there. But the psychology means we can't go back to Remain. Remaining members needs presentational finesse.
    Trumps popularity with the Brits is what, 13%?
    So the conditions may be there for a reversal of the decision.
    Either way shit is going to happen, my instinct is still that we have to brexit and let the shit be attributed to that, rather than circumventing the EU vote.
    I am shocked by the amount of people cheering on the mob, from the foreign minister right down to commentators here. It rarely works out well.
    An undirected mob is a tremendous opportunity for the cynical and power-hungry in the real world, as well as would-be point scorers on PB. After all it has taken Farage from obscurity to supposed mover-and-shaker in the President's entourage, and there are plenty of ambitious people out there eager for a slice of the action.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060

    Thought experiment: suppose the EU elected a president with a similar electoral college system to the US. Which countries would be the "swing states"? I guess the UK would be the equivalent of Texas...

    I did 2015 with counties instead of states. It ended up something like this:

    7th May 2015, from another Timeline.

    "And the final results of the first UK General Election to be held under an Electoral College are now final, with the recounts in Derbyshire and Clwyd being completed.
    As our viewers will be aware, the UK Electoral Systems Act 2014 means that results are given by counties or Unitary Authority areas, with the number of Electoral Votes cast by each being equivalent to their former number of MPs"

    "Yes, David, and while we expect Northern Ireland to continue voting on sectarian lines as it did in the past, their only hope for real influence is if the election gets thrown to the Lords if no Party wins more than the target of 325 EVs. In that case, the Lords will choose between the leaders of the top three parties, which were widely - and correctly - expected to be David Cameron, Ed Milliband and Nicola Sturgeon"

    "Indeed, but we can now say that it won't come to that. With Derbyshire's 11 Electoral Votes and Clwyd's 7 EVs both going to the Conservatives after their recounts, David Cameron now has 337 Electoral Votes, which is enough to put him over the line."

    "Yes, David. Ed Milliband got 236 EVs, with London's 73 Electoral Votes making up nearly a third of his entire count, the SNP swept Scotland with 59 EVs, and Northern Ireland, as expected, split their Electoral votes between the DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Ulster Unionists. There will be no trade-offs before the Electoral College meets as Mr Cameron does not, in the end, require any 'lent' EVs to be sworn in"

    "The Liberal Democrats, UKIP and Green Parties were all disappointed, receiving no Electoral Votes. None of them even came close to winning any county."
    That's excellent, thanks. I wonder at which elections it would have changed things: 2010 would be an odd one due to the coalition? 2005?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Jonathan said:

    Who can put Farage back in his box? By undermining HMG he is working against the national interest.

    Does that argument also apply to the remoaners on here and elsewhere?
    Why Farage and not also, for example. the BBC?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    edited November 2016
    -1459 Minnesota
    2 Hawaii
    71 Nebraska
    82 North Carolina
    753 Louisiana
    1118 South Carolina
    1279 Iowa
    1789 New Mexico
    3056 Georgia
    4456 Texas
    8628 Oregon
    9959 Virginia
    15720 Illinois
    22395 Missouri
    36501 Connecticut
    39293 Colorado
    39609 Maryland
    72262 Washington
    156665 Arizona
    525972 California

    Here are the vote count changes since I last took a snapshot of the PV totals.

    Trump has increased his lead by 7,759 votes in Arizona.

    The net effect of the others are adding to the Democratic PV, the original MN total was probably wrong - it has improved by a net 129 votes to Clinton.
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    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    The alternate view is that Farage is deliberately undermining HMG's relations with a foreign government.
    Traitor, anyone ?
    :-)
    Private diplomacy in the US is highly illegal.
    Ah yes The Logan Act.
    For a brief moment I thought this was a joke, but no there really is a Logan Act. Think it only applies to citizens. So Boris better stay on message.
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    Patrick said:

    Time to shelve Brexit.

    Quit before the mental and moral gymnastics start to affect your health.

    Oh dear. Someone is getting emotional. There is not now and never will be a valid reason for the UK to become a part of the U.S.E. Yes, a Leave vote poses challenges. A Remain vote would have been a crossing of the event horizon into the EU black hole. From which we would never have been able to escape.
    The black hole is the one of uncertainty that is about to engulf us.
    A democracy can be identified by two key attributes:
    1. You can kick the buggers out; and
    2. Thereby change direction or policy.
    The EU is not a democracy - voters can do precisely nothing to divert it from its journey towards becoming a lefty superstate. From your post I deduce that you are worried about uncertainty over trade terms and our economy but relaxed about our potential loss of democracy and identity. I'm the other way round.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818

    Thought experiment: suppose the EU elected a president with a similar electoral college system to the US. Which countries would be the "swing states"? I guess the UK would be the equivalent of Texas...

    I did 2015 with counties instead of states. It ended up something like this:

    7th May 2015, from another Timeline.

    "And the final results of the first UK General Election to be held under an Electoral College are now final, with the recounts in Derbyshire and Clwyd being completed.
    As our viewers will be aware, the UK Electoral Systems Act 2014 means that results are given by counties or Unitary Authority areas, with the number of Electoral Votes cast by each being equivalent to their former number of MPs"

    "Yes, David, and while we expect Northern Ireland to continue voting on sectarian lines as it did in the past, their only hope for real influence is if the election gets thrown to the Lords if no Party wins more than the target of 325 EVs. In that case, the Lords will choose between the leaders of the top three parties, which were widely - and correctly - expected to be David Cameron, Ed Milliband and Nicola Sturgeon"

    "Indeed, but we can now say that it won't come to that. With Derbyshire's 11 Electoral Votes and Clwyd's 7 EVs both going to the Conservatives after their recounts, David Cameron now has 337 Electoral Votes, which is enough to put him over the line."

    "Yes, David. Ed Milliband got 236 EVs, with London's 73 Electoral Votes making up nearly a third of his entire count, the SNP swept Scotland with 59 EVs, and Northern Ireland, as expected, split their Electoral votes between the DUP, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Ulster Unionists. There will be no trade-offs before the Electoral College meets as Mr Cameron does not, in the end, require any 'lent' EVs to be sworn in"

    "The Liberal Democrats, UKIP and Green Parties were all disappointed, receiving no Electoral Votes. None of them even came close to winning any county."
    Nice.
    Thanks :)

    If we then go into the alt-pb.com discussion following that result in the alt-timeline, we find that if the counties had split their votes by PR, we'd have ended up with Con 265, Lab 226, UKIP 72, SNP 37, LD 28, DUP 6, Sinn Fein 4, Alliance 3, UUP 3, Plaid Cymru 3, SDLP 2, Green 1

    (Yes, I enjoy spreadsheets too much sometimes...)
This discussion has been closed.