BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Any normal British person simply goes home if they find themselves confronting the police. You can go out and try again tomorrow.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Laura K also emphasises history of mistrust between Tories and former mining communities over this issue.
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Laura K also emphasises history of mistrust between Tories and former mining communities over this issue.
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
There's no way of "peacefully" trying to shut down businesses and stopping people from working, by means of mass picketing.
Tim Montgomerie ن@montie Last week's Labour message: Tories are only helping the City. This week's Labour message: Tories did too much to help car manufacturer
I'm sure the voters of Sunderland have noticed that Labour would have thrown them to the wolves.....
I suspect that there's a certain cohort of Remain ultras - and not just in Labour - who will have felt very let down by the fact that Nissan didn't pull the plug, on the new models at least if not on the entire plant. Firstly, because they would be pleased to see people in Sunderland punished for having helped to take their previous EU membership card away. Secondly, to be able to crow over an event which might be claimed to have proven them right. And thirdly, because the best of the slim chances they have of reversing the referendum result is to block A50, and that could probably only be achieved by having such an avalanche of economic disasters (that could be pinned on Brexit) strike the country in rapid succession, that a significant number of Tory MPs might be willing to think twice about pushing the button.
Purely on the issue of Labour and Sunderland, there is about as much chance of any of the Sunderland seats giving their Labour MPs the elbow as there is of me discovering the Unified Field Theory and winning the Nobel Prize in Physics. They're the very epitome of red rosette on a pig territory.
They said that in Scotland too.....!
Scotland was a special case. Product of devolution, decades of Labour rottenness and neglect, the independence issue, and a broad-based challenger adopting a centre-left position.
I believe that Labour in England can be ground down in the heartlands, but if it does happen then it's likely to take a very long time.
Tim Montgomerie ن@montie Last week's Labour message: Tories are only helping the City. This week's Labour message: Tories did too much to help car manufacturer
I'm sure the voters of Sunderland have noticed that Labour would have thrown them to the wolves.....
I suspect that there's a certain cohort of Remain ultras - and not just in Labour - who will have felt very let down by the fact that Nissan didn't pull the plug, on the new models at least if not on the entire plant. Firstly, because they would be pleased to see people in Sunderland punished for having helped to take their previous EU membership card away. Secondly, to be able to crow over an event which might be claimed to have proven them right. And thirdly, because the best of the slim chances they have of reversing the referendum result is to block A50, and that could probably only be achieved by having such an avalanche of economic disasters (that could be pinned on Brexit) strike the country in rapid succession, that a significant number of Tory MPs might be willing to think twice about pushing the button.
Purely on the issue of Labour and Sunderland, there is about as much chance of any of the Sunderland seats giving their Labour MPs the elbow as there is of me discovering the Unified Field Theory and winning the Nobel Prize in Physics. They're the very epitome of red rosette on a pig territory.
The sand is trickling through the remainers' fingers. No instant DIY recession, no punishment budget, strong growth on the economic front. They banked a lot on Nissan for the reasons listed but more manufacturers are getting over their flounce and having to get back to business. They realise that doom and gloom and predictions of higher prices and uncertainty don't play well with customers, shareholders and employees and they will increasingly broadcast a message of optimism. The universities seem to have piped down for the same reason.Telling everyone that your courses and funding are going to be cut doesn't pull in the punters, esp the foreign ones with the cash. The remainers' Great White Hope now is the banks. Their idle pipe dream of a deserted City will ome to naught but they can hope against hope.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Laura K also emphasises history of mistrust between Tories and former mining communities over this issue.
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
Andy Burnham "shaking with rage". Same chap who was Parliamentary Private Secretary (PPS) to Home Secretary David Blunkett until 2004 and later after GE2005 election as a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State in the Home Office.
Unless women in Indiana are wired differently, it's reasonable to think that a big swing could be relevant elsewhere.
I wouldn't base any substantive judgement on a poll of 402 !!
24 is the new 'gold standard' "n" 8)
I regret we're going to go through this storm of over-reaction every time an unusual poll or morsel of seemingly insightful information hits twitter et al.
PBers need to keep their focus on reliable state polling, correct early voting data and above all ....
FOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The 538 map for Trump. Neither looks very likely to me:
Re Carney. This morning the FT headlined with "Carney staying for full 8 years" (2021). This evening its just 2 more years to 2019. FT either uninformned or someone cut Carney back?
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Any normal British person simply goes home if they find themselves confronting the police. You can go out and try again tomorrow.
The South Yorkshire Police never abuse their power, give in to vested interests or give false statements. No siree.
1. The Clinton Foundation has clearly been used to buy favour from the Clintons. Hillary can say she (and Bill) has never personally benefitted, but *at best* it's an appalling look for someone who hopes to be President. She ought to have shut it down or placed into a clearly independent trusteeship.
2. She hasn't come up through classic, community or issue-centred political activity. She's come up by gaining control of the DNC and by being Bill's wife. She has no bedrock of support outside the party. Hence she is quite unloved - she's never really had to mobilise political support in the real world.
3. As the wife of a former President, her candidacy perpetuates a grotesque incestuousness in US political circles.
For all that, I've seen nothing to suggest she's done anything illegal. She has administrative experience in both domestic and foreign policy. She would be respected abroad.
She's clearly the "best" candidate.
I'm hoping Trump goes down big time and the Republicans lose everything going. They need a historic defeat to rediscover their principles and their raison d'etre.
I actually think there is only one real problem with Hillary Clinton. She can't fake sincerity and that's a fatal flaw for a politician. In his strange way Donald Trump can. He can at least fool some of the people most of the time.
That's not to say Clinton is kosher by normal non-politician standards. Politicians that have been around as long as Clinton has tend to pick up baggage. The concrete objections against her - the email server and her foundation - are objectively nothing very special compared with what previous presidents have done or are alleged to have done. Compare for example with Ronald Reagan and the iran Contra affair or the allegations of corrupt property deals made against George W Bush. The basic issue with all these affairs is the voracious demands for money - political campaigns in America require hundreds of millions of dollars.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Laura K also emphasises history of mistrust between Tories and former mining communities over this issue.
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
Andy Burnham "shaking with rage". Same chap who was Parliamentary Private Secretary (PPS) to Home Secretary David Blunkett until 2004 and later after GE2005 election as a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State in the Home Office.
There's very little that's less threatening that Burnham shaking with rage. A dandelion looking a bit wind-blown?
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Any normal British person simply goes home if they find themselves confronting the police. You can go out and try again tomorrow.
The South Yorkshire Police never abuse their power, give in to vested interests or give false statements. No siree.
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
BBC News at 6 opening statement. "anger at ... govt decision... into the worst clashes of the miners strike ...." "Govt accused of a ... stitch up" "Images of violence" commentary as police on horses rush forward.
Nothing about the stone and rock throwing at the police.
Laura K also emphasises history of mistrust between Tories and former mining communities over this issue.
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
Andy Burnham "shaking with rage". Same chap who was Parliamentary Private Secretary (PPS) to Home Secretary David Blunkett until 2004 and later after GE2005 election as a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State in the Home Office.
Slightly cynically, I'd suggest that it's a core vote issue which could suggest real concern about where the Labour vote floor really is.
Perhaps Nick Palmer could give a wider context as to its sudden importance to Labour MPs.
Unless women in Indiana are wired differently, it's reasonable to think that a big swing could be relevant elsewhere.
I wouldn't base any substantive judgement on a poll of 402 !!
24 is the new 'gold standard' "n" 8)
I regret we're going to go through this storm of over-reaction every time an unusual poll or morsel of seemingly insightful information hits twitter et al.
PBers need to keep their focus on reliable state polling, correct early voting data and above all ....
FOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The 538 map for Trump. Neither looks very likely to me:
Just look at that Trump surge.. not Scottish Tory Surge (tm) territory, but still good nonetheless.
Trump's at his highest absolute level at any point other than during the convention bounce. He's timing it to perfection.
The odd thing is, Trump has done nothing to deserve a bounce – Tis Clinton’s own making.
I'm not sure about that. He showed real resilience to bounce back from pussygate and the dynamics of the final stretch being all about rallying the voters plays to his strengths as a campaigner.
Good. Guess Mrs Carney is quite enjoying the shopping.
The criticism of Carney is not completely unwarranted. He won't go down as a great BoE governor. But, post Brexit, we just can't afford to lose him.
It doesn't make any difference who the governor is - the policy won't change. It's set by Janet Yellen, and it's called ZIRP forever. And it won't work.
Eventually it will collapse, it's unavoidable. There's no more leverage room left on the high street, so it's just the institutions playing with the printed cash now.
Interesting how Hillsborough gets mentioned on the Six O'Clock News in relation to Orgreave, but not Rotherham. Can't imagine why that would be.
Because there is a direct link in the behaviour of the South Yorkshire Police during a similar time period. In Rotherham their behaviour was different, though equally as appalling.
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
That's a pretty thin excuse for the fact that most of the Labour MPs complaining about the Home Secretary's decision were also in Parliament for some or all of the thirteen year period of complete inaction under their own Government.
Suspicions that the police may not have acted entirely properly 32 years ago do somewhat pre-date April.
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
That's a pretty thin excuse for the fact that most of the Labour MPs complaining about the Home Secretary's decision were also in Parliament for some or all of the thirteen year period of complete inaction under their own Government.
Suspicions that the police may not have acted entirely properly 32 years ago do somewhat pre-date April.
There's a difference between suspicion and clear evidence of a pattern of behaviour.
Ouch. Truth hurts. Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
What a thoroughly nasty piece of work that Goldsmith is! It was him and his Tory colleagues who insisted that tuition fees should go up to 9,000.
Mr. Observer, contempt for the white working class is shown most clearly by those shrieking about Orgreave and silent about Rotherham.
Sexual abuse of over 1,400 white children (a third boys) in recent years is more serious than questionable police actions when faced with people seeking to prevent others conducting their lawful business and going to work.
As Miss Cyclefree wrote, it's not an either/or, but the fact that so many are so keen to complain about potential wrongdoing over a quarter of a century ago yet so relatively unconcerned by far more serious wrongdoing more recently, with over a thousand child victims does rather indicate where some people think priorities lie.
Still, easier to bash South Yorkshire Police (who really do deserve it) than address mass rape of children by Asian/Muslim men on white kids.
I don't write this to attack you (I know you're a decent sort). The disgrace of Rotherham still hasn't had the attention it deserves and bleating about events so long ago, and so minor compared to the prolonged, and worse, events in Rotherham shows media and politicians retreating to a comfort zone because attacking the 'culturally sensitive' topic is just too difficult.
Better to knock what policemen did 30 years ago than try and stop some white working class kids in care from being raped. Wouldn't want to heighten community tensions, would we?
The Monmouth poll is bad for Dem chances of taking back the Senate as they were leading in Indiana by 6 or so points but their candidate has had a bad history when still in the Senate last time and looks as though it is sticking, the Prez race there doesn't mean anything ad HRC was not competing there. She should be more worried about Florida early voting numbers which are more whiter and older than last time. Getting Michelle to stump for you isn't going to be enough.
I see Sarah Champion was criticizing Amber Rudd's decision but as far as I am aware SC hasn't said a word about the case last week where a group of Asian men in Rotherham have been given life-long anonymity.
Tim Montgomerie ن@montie Last week's Labour message: Tories are only helping the City. This week's Labour message: Tories did too much to help car manufacturer
I'm sure the voters of Sunderland have noticed that Labour would have thrown them to the wolves.....
I suspect that there's a certain cohort of Remain ultras - and not just in Labour - who will have felt very let down by the fact that Nissan didn't pull the plug, on the new models at least if not on the entire plant. Firstly, because they would be pleased to see people in Sunderland punished for having helped to take their previous EU membership card away. Secondly, to be able to crow over an event which might be claimed to have proven them right. And thirdly, because the best of the slim chances they have of reversing the referendum result is to block A50, and that could probably only be achieved by having such an avalanche of economic disasters (that could be pinned on Brexit) strike the country in rapid succession, that a significant number of Tory MPs might be willing to think twice about pushing the button.
Purely on the issue of Labour and Sunderland, there is about as much chance of any of the Sunderland seats giving their Labour MPs the elbow as there is of me discovering the Unified Field Theory and winning the Nobel Prize in Physics. They're the very epitome of red rosette on a pig territory.
They said that in Scotland too.....!
Scotland was a special case. Product of devolution, decades of Labour rottenness and neglect, the independence issue, and a broad-based challenger adopting a centre-left position.
I believe that Labour in England can be ground down in the heartlands, but if it does happen then it's likely to take a very long time.
I agree. Lab voters hold their nose and vote for them doesn't matter how shite they are. Plus Union members are almost forced to vote Red. I think Labour will lose a bit in Wales and some areas where they are already weak. And they will lose the marginals. But they will end up at about 27% but won't fall further unless Lib Dems wake up. I think the yellows will win votes if they have as main policy: Vote the peril and we will give you another EU referendum. That will hurt Labour as the white middle class Reds will go for that.
I think it's rather sweet that Labour MPs have found something they can all unite around and pretend to be outraged about, even if they did have to go back 32 years to find it.
Mr. Dixie, depends if Nutall wins. If he does, and pursues a northern approach, he might cause Labour problems. I'm not saying it'll be a Scottish-style collapse, but seats that despair of Corbyn but will never vote Conservative might like the cut of Nutall's jib.
I think it's rather sweet that Labour MPs have found something they can all unite around and pretend to be outraged about, even if they did have to go back 32 years to find it.
It's pathetic in the extreme
they had 13 years to call an enquiry, why didnt they?
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
It's good to see PB returning to type in its views of the white working class.
I think that is unfair, Mr O. I have been quite vocal earlier on this thread in my belief that an inquiry is needed into police culture - and how one might be done - as well as into their behavior in Rotherham and elsewhere.
Just because one does not agree with a particular inquiry or a particular form of an inquiry does not mean that one hates the white working class.
The miners were not angels in the strike and the behavior of some of them was appalling. But even if they behaved badly at Orgreave (or elsewhere) this does not excuse bad behavior by the police, not least because all of us are affected if the bodies responsible for our criminal and judicial system behave badly.
It is possible to:-
1. Think that some miners behaved appallingly and/or were very badly led by their union leaders. 2. Feel sympathy for mining communities who underwent significant change to long-standing communities, even if this was economically necessary. There is a human element which is too often forgotten and the tone of many in government at the time seemed quite harsh and unforgiving about the human consequences of such change. 3. Be critical of police behavior and want that looked into; and 4. Be disgusted at the utterly hypocritical stance taken by Labour which did nothing to address this issue when it was in a position to do so and seems (perhaps only to a cynic such as me) only interested in the white working class when it can be used for some ulterior purpose e.g. bashing the Tories. Where were Labour MPs decrying the social changes to long-standing working class communities caused by mass immigration, for instance?
all at the same time. Having one of these thoughts in one's head does not preclude having others as well.
It's not foolish to follow the links. It's important to do so otherwise you might believe the libelous lies Plato posts.
Plato has done this site a big service in posting contrary views to the 80%+ of the USA stuff that is pro-Clinton.
Seconded. Most on here don't want Trump, are appalled by Trump, can't conceive how any rational person would vote for Trump....and aren't Americans and don't have a vote. Whichever way you look at this,as a minimum, 40-odd percent of Americans will vote for Trump. Trying to understand his appeal to them is far more worthy of scrutiny than the "Isn't he just AWFUL???" which is the contribution of all too many.
20% GOP faithful + 10% desperate for a change from the status quo + 10% true trump believers
Actual % values may vary (I haven't convinced myself), but I think the categories are pretty reasonable.
Trump is akin to privatising Govt. I think he is terrible, but I actually want him to win because Hillary is a liberal elite with sense of entitlement. She'll achieve nothing. She appeals to cohorts pretending to love them but doesn't. Trump will be a thorn in the side of civil servants, I love it. But, he must be kept away from nuclear button. Someone will dare him on twatter, he will go for it,
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
Ouch. Truth hurts. Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
What a thoroughly nasty piece of work that Goldsmith is! It was him and his Tory colleagues who insisted that tuition fees should go up to 9,000.
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
It's good to see PB returning to type in its views of the white working class.
I think that is unfair, Mr O. I have been quite vocal earlier on this thread in my belief that an inquiry is needed into police culture - and how one might be done - as well as into their behavior in Rotherham and elsewhere.
Just because one does not agree with a particular inquiry or a particular form of an inquiry does not mean that one hates the white working class.
The miners were not angels in the strike and the behavior of some of them was appalling. But even if they behaved badly at Orgreave (or elsewhere) this does not excuse bad behavior by the police, not least because all of us are affected if the bodies responsible for our criminal and judicial system behave badly.
It is possible to:-
1. Think that some miners behaved appallingly and/or were very badly led by their union leaders. 2. Feel sympathy for mining communities who underwent significant change to long-standing communities, even if this was economically necessary. There is a human element which is too often forgotten and the tone of many in government at the time seemed quite harsh and unforgiving about the human consequences of such change. 3. Be critical of police behavior and want that looked into; and 4. Be disgusted at the utterly hypocritical stance taken by Labour which did nothing to address this issue when it was in a position to do so and seems (perhaps only to a cynic such as me) only interested in the white working class when it can be used for some ulterior purpose e.g. bashing the Tories. Where were Labour MPs decrying the social changes to long-standing working class communities caused by mass immigration, for instance?
all at the same time. Having one of these thoughts in one's head does not preclude having others as well.
Here bloody here.
Labour seems to be hypocrisy, sniping and grandstanding or nothing nowadays.
It's not foolish to follow the links. It's important to do so otherwise you might believe the libelous lies Plato posts.
Plato has done this site a big service in posting contrary views to the 80%+ of the USA stuff that is pro-Clinton.
Seconded. Most on here don't want Trump, are appalled by Trump, can't conceive how any rational person would vote for Trump....and aren't Americans and don't have a vote. Whichever way you look at this,as a minimum, 40-odd percent of Americans will vote for Trump. Trying to understand his appeal to them is far more worthy of scrutiny than the "Isn't he just AWFUL???" which is the contribution of all too many.
20% GOP faithful + 10% desperate for a change from the status quo + 10% true trump believers
Actual % values may vary (I haven't convinced myself), but I think the categories are pretty reasonable.
Trump is akin to privatising Govt. I think he is terrible, but I actually want him to win because Hillary is a liberal elite with sense of entitlement. She'll achieve nothing. She appeals to cohorts pretending to love them but doesn't. Trump will be a thorn in the side of civil servants, I love it. But, he must be kept away from nuclear button. Someone will dare him on twatter, he will go for it,
He can't be kept away from the nuclear button. He's the Commander in Chief. In the end, you need someone in that position who has a cool head not someone who often gives the impression that he's auditioning to replay the part of Brig. Gen Jack D Ripper or even Major 'King' Kong in Dr Strangelove.
Mr. Observer, contempt for the white working class is shown most clearly by those shrieking about Orgreave and silent about Rotherham.
Sexual abuse of over 1,400 white children (a third boys) in recent years is more serious than questionable police actions when faced with people seeking to prevent others conducting their lawful business and going to work.
As Miss Cyclefree wrote, it's not an either/or, but the fact that so many are so keen to complain about potential wrongdoing over a quarter of a century ago yet so relatively unconcerned by far more serious wrongdoing more recently, with over a thousand child victims does rather indicate where some people think priorities lie.
Still, easier to bash South Yorkshire Police (who really do deserve it) than address mass rape of children by Asian/Muslim men on white kids.
I don't write this to attack you (I know you're a decent sort). The disgrace of Rotherham still hasn't had the attention it deserves and bleating about events so long ago, and so minor compared to the prolonged, and worse, events in Rotherham shows media and politicians retreating to a comfort zone because attacking the 'culturally sensitive' topic is just too difficult.
Better to knock what policemen did 30 years ago than try and stop some white working class kids in care from being raped. Wouldn't want to heighten community tensions, would we?
I'm sure that it's the fault of the majority of lawyers who have no legal qualifications.
I agree. Lab voters hold their nose and vote for them doesn't matter how shite they are. Plus Union members are almost forced to vote Red. I think Labour will lose a bit in Wales and some areas where they are already weak. And they will lose the marginals. But they will end up at about 27% but won't fall further unless Lib Dems wake up. I think the yellows will win votes if they have as main policy: Vote the peril and we will give you another EU referendum. That will hurt Labour as the white middle class Reds will go for that.
Possibly, but I don't think that this will get the LDs very far. Firstly, I remain to be convinced that most of the more committed leftists will be willing either to abandon Labour, or to forgive the Lib Dems for the Coalition. And secondly, they face not Labour but the Tories in most of their limited range of target seats, where their shift leftwards leaves them acutely vulnerable to a new variant of the 2015 toxicity by association strategy. Quite simply, the Conservative message about the yellows next time will be "Vote Farron, Get Corbyn,"
I suppose under such a scenario there could, conceivably, be a shift from Lab 27%, LD 8% to Lab 25%, LD 10%, but it's not going to make a great deal of difference to either side. Cambridge would probably change hands again, and that's about it.
(PS Have to dissent on your view of rank and file union members. I am a union member, but wouldn't touch Labour with a ten-foot bargepole. A minority position, to be sure, but I very much doubt that I am alone.)
It's not foolish to follow the links. It's important to do so otherwise you might believe the libelous lies Plato posts.
Plato has done this site a big service in posting contrary views to the 80%+ of the USA stuff that is pro-Clinton.
Seconded. Most on here don't want Trump, are appalled by Trump, can't conceive how any rational person would vote for Trump....and aren't Americans and don't have a vote. Whichever way you look at this,as a minimum, 40-odd percent of Americans will vote for Trump. Trying to understand his appeal to them is far more worthy of scrutiny than the "Isn't he just AWFUL???" which is the contribution of all too many.
20% GOP faithful + 10% desperate for a change from the status quo + 10% true trump believers
Actual % values may vary (I haven't convinced myself), but I think the categories are pretty reasonable.
Trump is akin to privatising Govt. I think he is terrible, but I actually want him to win because Hillary is a liberal elite with sense of entitlement. She'll achieve nothing. She appeals to cohorts pretending to love them but doesn't. Trump will be a thorn in the side of civil servants, I love it. But, he must be kept away from nuclear button. Someone will dare him on twatter, he will go for it,
He can't be kept away from the nuclear button. He's the Commander in Chief. In the end, you need someone in that position who has a cool head not someone who often gives the impression that he's auditioning to replay the part of Brig. Gen Jack D Ripper or even Major 'King' Kong in Dr Strangelove.
Christ. The trouble is this election is Life imitating Hollywood's worst horror b-movies.
Mr. Dixie, depends if Nutall wins. If he does, and pursues a northern approach, he might cause Labour problems. I'm not saying it'll be a Scottish-style collapse, but seats that despair of Corbyn but will never vote Conservative might like the cut of Nutall's jib.
Here's hoping. None of my WWC mates believe in Labour but all vote Labour. Time for some common sense.
Mr. Dixie, on a purely strategic basis, I think Nutall would be the better choice. If he and Evans can work together, regardless of the winner, they may be able to sew UKIP back together again.
Mr. Observer, contempt for the white working class is shown most clearly by those shrieking about Orgreave and silent about Rotherham.
Sexual abuse of over 1,400 white children (a third boys) in recent years is more serious than questionable police actions when faced with people seeking to prevent others conducting their lawful business and going to work.
As Miss Cyclefree wrote, it's not an either/or, but the fact that so many are so keen to complain about potential wrongdoing over a quarter of a century ago yet so relatively unconcerned by far more serious wrongdoing more recently, with over a thousand child victims does rather indicate where some people think priorities lie.
Still, easier to bash South Yorkshire Police (who really do deserve it) than address mass rape of children by Asian/Muslim men on white kids.
I don't write this to attack you (I know you're a decent sort). The disgrace of Rotherham still hasn't had the attention it deserves and bleating about events so long ago, and so minor compared to the prolonged, and worse, events in Rotherham shows media and politicians retreating to a comfort zone because attacking the 'culturally sensitive' topic is just too difficult.
Better to knock what policemen did 30 years ago than try and stop some white working class kids in care from being raped. Wouldn't want to heighten community tensions, would we?
I'm sure that it's the fault of the majority of lawyers who have no legal qualifications.
I wonder if whoever said that got confused with how many lawyers had law degrees or, even, degrees at all.
Some of the best lawyers around do not have law degrees. Years ago you did not need even to have a degree to become a lawyer and there were lots of legal executives who were not formally lawyers but knew as much about the practicalities of the law as many more qualified lawyers.
Now, unless you have been interning at a solicitor's firm since you were about 10 it is more or less impossible to get into the law at all, certainly if you have anything even remotely unusual about your background and/or education. And there are many people with law degrees who are not working as lawyers at all.
I'm not sure the effect of these changes has necessarily been an unmitigated good thing.
Lena Epstein, co-chair of Trump campaign in Michigan, was just interviewed by Jon Snow on Channel 4 News, but it's a bit surprising that she only has 390 followers on Twitter:
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
That's a pretty thin excuse for the fact that most of the Labour MPs complaining about the Home Secretary's decision were also in Parliament for some or all of the thirteen year period of complete inaction under their own Government.
Suspicions that the police may not have acted entirely properly 32 years ago do somewhat pre-date April.
To be fair, many of the Labour MPs now protesting (specifically northern MPs plus the left) also protested at the lack of an enquiry when Labour was in power (I didn't have enough information and didn't express a view either way). The reason it's become hot again is that the Hillsborough precedent was expected to lead to one for Orgreave, because Theresa May had as Home Secretary invited submissions for one and appeared to be clearly sympathetic.
As Guido correctly points out, she's the LD Treasury spokeswoman. There's only one Shadow Chancellor, and that position is currently occupied by John McDonnell.
The Orgreave enquiry demands spring from the Hillsbrough enquiry.
That's a pretty thin excuse for the fact that most of the Labour MPs complaining about the Home Secretary's decision were also in Parliament for some or all of the thirteen year period of complete inaction under their own Government.
Suspicions that the police may not have acted entirely properly 32 years ago do somewhat pre-date April.
To be fair, many of the Labour MPs now protesting (specifically northern MPs plus the left) also protested at the lack of an enquiry when Labour was in power (I didn't have enough information and didn't express a view either way). The reason it's become hot again is that the Hillsborough precedent was expected to lead to one for Orgreave, because Theresa May had as Home Secretary invited submissions for one and appeared to be clearly sympathetic.
May seems not at all enamoured by the police. She's been one of the few Home Secretaries willing to tell them some hard truths.
Maybe the mistake here has been, as you imply, to raise expectations which have been dashed.
Personally, while I can see the reasons for not holding an inquiry into Orgreave specifically, I can see some benefit into holding some sort of review into police culture since some forces do seem to come up again and again when wrongdoing is alleged and/or found. That speaks to me of a poor culture, at best.
Ouch. Truth hurts. Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
What a thoroughly nasty piece of work that Goldsmith is! It was him and his Tory colleagues who insisted that tuition fees should go up to 9,000.
I did a bit of googling and it seems that the Tories did raise the tuition fees. The Lib Dems achieved some amendment but eventually broke their promise to vote against. So it does appear true that the Tories managed to get their policy in place and land the LibDems with the blame.
Willetts was a Tory Minister: "Fees will rise to £6,000, with an upper tier of £9,000 if universities ensure access for poorer students. Universities Minister David Willetts said this was a "progressive" reform.
But Mr Willetts said the fees package would "put universities' finance on a sustainable footing with extra freedoms and less bureaucracy". He argued this would bring "greater choice for students with a stronger focus on high quality teaching". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11677862
It's not foolish to follow the links. It's important to do so otherwise you might believe the libelous lies Plato posts.
Plato has done this site a big service in posting contrary views to the 80%+ of the USA stuff that is pro-Clinton.
Seconded. Most on here don't want Trump, are appalled by Trump, can't conceive how any rational person would vote for Trump....and aren't Americans and don't have a vote. Whichever way you look at this,as a minimum, 40-odd percent of Americans will vote for Trump. Trying to understand his appeal to them is far more worthy of scrutiny than the "Isn't he just AWFUL???" which is the contribution of all too many.
20% GOP faithful + 10% desperate for a change from the status quo + 10% true trump believers
Actual % values may vary (I haven't convinced myself), but I think the categories are pretty reasonable.
Trump is akin to privatising Govt. I think he is terrible, but I actually want him to win because Hillary is a liberal elite with sense of entitlement. She'll achieve nothing. She appeals to cohorts pretending to love them but doesn't. Trump will be a thorn in the side of civil servants, I love it. But, he must be kept away from nuclear button. Someone will dare him on twatter, he will go for it,
He can't be kept away from the nuclear button. He's the Commander in Chief. In the end, you need someone in that position who has a cool head not someone who often gives the impression that he's auditioning to replay the part of Brig. Gen Jack D Ripper or even Major 'King' Kong in Dr Strangelove.
Surely General Turgesson? I don't think Trump denies women his essence or feels profound fatigue after the physical act of love. Indeed, the lack of these traits appears to be two fairly significant problems.
Who would Hilary Clinton be? The bumbling President who obligingly hands all the important stuff to the Russians through a mix of well-meaning incompetence and mind-blowing carelessness or the completely ineffectual Lionel Mandrake?
While we know the vote percentages of Presidential elections is there any equivalents of the NEVs that are given for UK local elections for the US mid term elections.
It would be interesting to see what the base vote for each party was.
As Guido correctly points out, she's the LD Treasury spokeswoman. There's only one Shadow Chancellor, and that position is currently occupied by John McDonnell.
People were talking earlier about Trump's appeal to the average American. It would have been literally impossible to put together this kind of propaganda video for any other Republican candidate since Reagan. This one has over a million views on Facebook.
I had always know that there had been one rejection of a strike in a ballot but I never realised there were as many as three.
Which is sad. Had they gone on strike before March 1985 they would have been in a stronger position because coal stocks were lower.
Robert Blake, in his history of the Conservative party, strongly implied that the pit closures were delayed (and therefore the strike) until there were huge reserve piles at the power stations.
At that point, even if Scargill had not been possessed of the tactical acumen of a squashed roast potato, the self awareness of a Donald Trump and the democratic credentials of a despot, the government held all the aces.
Whether it's true I don't know, but Blake was pretty well-informed and it seems possible.
I trust Trump with the nuclear button more than I do Clinton. She is part of a military-industrial complex which seems hell bent onot provoking military engagements with Russia, and in driving the deployment of forward troops and dual use conventional/nuclear systems into countries surrounding Russia. He is the one who respects Putin and references the open Russian response to things like American ABM systems which is a new generation of ICBMS.
So yes, I'll have him in control over a warmongering lunatic.
Seconded. Most on here don't want Trump, are appalled by Trump, can't conceive how any rational person would vote for Trump....and aren't Americans and don't have a vote. Whichever way you look at this,as a minimum, 40-odd percent of Americans will vote for Trump. Trying to understand his appeal to them is far more worthy of scrutiny than the "Isn't he just AWFUL???" which is the contribution of all too many.
20% GOP faithful + 10% desperate for a change from the status quo + 10% true trump believers
Actual % values may vary (I haven't convinced myself), but I think the categories are pretty reasonable.
Trump is akin to privatising Govt. I think he is terrible, but I actually want him to win because Hillary is a liberal elite with sense of entitlement. She'll achieve nothing. She appeals to cohorts pretending to love them but doesn't. Trump will be a thorn in the side of civil servants, I love it. But, he must be kept away from nuclear button. Someone will dare him on twatter, he will go for it,
He can't be kept away from the nuclear button. He's the Commander in Chief. In the end, you need someone in that position who has a cool head not someone who often gives the impression that he's auditioning to replay the part of Brig. Gen Jack D Ripper or even Major 'King' Kong in Dr Strangelove.
Surely General Turgesson? I don't think Trump denies women his essence or feels profound fatigue after the physical act of love. Indeed, the lack of these traits appears to be two fairly significant problems.
Who would Hilary Clinton be? The bumbling President who obligingly hands all the important stuff to the Russians through a mix of well-meaning incompetence and mind-blowing carelessness or the completely ineffectual Lionel Mandrake?
I rather like the Mandrake character. The exchange with the US soldier as he tries to call the President and has to tell the soldier to shoot the Coca Cola machine to get some coins is priceless.
Clinton has to be the bumbling President. As for Trump and his sexual exploits (alleged or otherwise), he talks a lot. There is, I have sometimes observed, an inverse relationship between how much a man talks about these matters and his actual performance. But, frankly, I'd rather not go there. I still have my dinner to eat.
I had always know that there had been one rejection of a strike in a ballot but I never realised there were as many as three.
Which is sad. Had they gone on strike before March 1985 they would have been in a stronger position because coal stocks were lower.
Robert Blake, in his history of the Conservative party, strongly implied that the pit closures were delayed (and therefore the strike) until there were huge reserve piles at the power stations.
At that point, even if Scargill had not been possessed of the tactical acumen of a squashed roast potato, the self awareness of a Donald Trump and the democratic credentials of a despot, the government held all the aces.
Whether it's true I don't know, but Blake was pretty well-informed and it seems possible.
It sounds true, the Tories remembered what happened to Heath and planned accordingly.
I trust Trump with the nuclear button more than I do Clinton. She is part of a military-industrial complex which seems hell bent onot provoking military engagements with Russia, and in driving the deployment of forward troops and dual use conventional/nuclear systems into countries surrounding Russia. He is the one who respects Putin and references the open Russian response to things like American ABM systems which is a new generation of ICBMS.
So yes, I'll have him in control over a warmongering lunatic.
How do you think Trump would have reacted if MH17 were an American airliner?
I had always know that there had been one rejection of a strike in a ballot but I never realised there were as many as three.
Which is sad. Had they gone on strike before March 1985 they would have been in a stronger position because coal stocks were lower.
Robert Blake, in his history of the Conservative party, strongly implied that the pit closures were delayed (and therefore the strike) until there were huge reserve piles at the power stations.
At that point, even if Scargill had not been possessed of the tactical acumen of a squashed roast potato, the self awareness of a Donald Trump and the democratic credentials of a despot, the government held all the aces.
Whether it's true I don't know, but Blake was pretty well-informed and it seems possible.
Indeed.
Which is one of the reasons why Scargill forced the strike in the spring of 1984.
If he had waited until the autumn then the coal stocks would have been even higher.
The irony is that it was Scargill's refusal to support any pit closures which partly led to so much coal being above ground in 1984.
I trust Trump with the nuclear button more than I do Clinton. She is part of a military-industrial complex which seems hell bent onot provoking military engagements with Russia, and in driving the deployment of forward troops and dual use conventional/nuclear systems into countries surrounding Russia. He is the one who respects Putin and references the open Russian response to things like American ABM systems which is a new generation of ICBMS.
So yes, I'll have him in control over a warmongering lunatic.
Is it still possible we might end up with neither of them? The planet would be much safer and I've still got lots of things I want to do.
I had always know that there had been one rejection of a strike in a ballot but I never realised there were as many as three.
Which is sad. Had they gone on strike before March 1985 they would have been in a stronger position because coal stocks were lower.
Robert Blake, in his history of the Conservative party, strongly implied that the pit closures were delayed (and therefore the strike) until there were huge reserve piles at the power stations.
At that point, even if Scargill had not been possessed of the tactical acumen of a squashed roast potato, the self awareness of a Donald Trump and the democratic credentials of a despot, the government held all the aces.
Whether it's true I don't know, but Blake was pretty well-informed and it seems possible.
Charles Moore says much the same thing in his biography of Thatcher. The Tories knew a strike was coming. They paid off the miners earlier on but then made sure they were well prepared.
The NUM's biggest strategic mistake was to go ahead with the strike despite the votes against it. It meant that the political nature of the strike was highlighted, put Labour in a very difficult position and pissed off many who did not like the "rules are for others" approach of the NUM leadership.
Having seen off one Tory government using bully boy tactics, the NUM thought they were invincible.
Comments
Fails to mention that non-Tory Govt also had entire period from 1997-2010 to launch public inquiry into Orgreave, but also viewed it as unnecessary.
The criticism of Carney is not completely unwarranted. He won't go down as a great BoE governor. But, post Brexit, we just can't afford to lose him.
That should be shortly after we leave the EU, if Article 50 is triggered when indicated and if there's no extension to the negotiations.
I believe that Labour in England can be ground down in the heartlands, but if it does happen then it's likely to take a very long time.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-what-if-clinton-wins-north-carolina-and-loses-pennsylvania/
EDIT: I see williamglenn made exactly the same point a minute earlier!
This morning the FT headlined with "Carney staying for full 8 years" (2021). This evening its just 2 more years to 2019. FT either uninformned or someone cut Carney back?
That's not to say Clinton is kosher by normal non-politician standards. Politicians that have been around as long as Clinton has tend to pick up baggage. The concrete objections against her - the email server and her foundation - are objectively nothing very special compared with what previous presidents have done or are alleged to have done. Compare for example with Ronald Reagan and the iran Contra affair or the allegations of corrupt property deals made against George W Bush. The basic issue with all these affairs is the voracious demands for money - political campaigns in America require hundreds of millions of dollars.
Nah - comparatively dandelions are brutes!
Zac Goldsmith ✔ @ZacGoldsmith
Mr Clegg, this by-election is happening because I kept my word. Your Party might be in better shape if you'd done the same.
Perhaps Nick Palmer could give a wider context as to its sudden importance to Labour MPs.
FT discovers explanation for why its full eight-year term speculation was slightly wide of the mark...
It's good to see PB returning to type in its views of the white working class.
Eventually it will collapse, it's unavoidable. There's no more leverage room left on the high street, so it's just the institutions playing with the printed cash now.
Suspicions that the police may not have acted entirely properly 32 years ago do somewhat pre-date April.
Sexual abuse of over 1,400 white children (a third boys) in recent years is more serious than questionable police actions when faced with people seeking to prevent others conducting their lawful business and going to work.
As Miss Cyclefree wrote, it's not an either/or, but the fact that so many are so keen to complain about potential wrongdoing over a quarter of a century ago yet so relatively unconcerned by far more serious wrongdoing more recently, with over a thousand child victims does rather indicate where some people think priorities lie.
Still, easier to bash South Yorkshire Police (who really do deserve it) than address mass rape of children by Asian/Muslim men on white kids.
I don't write this to attack you (I know you're a decent sort). The disgrace of Rotherham still hasn't had the attention it deserves and bleating about events so long ago, and so minor compared to the prolonged, and worse, events in Rotherham shows media and politicians retreating to a comfort zone because attacking the 'culturally sensitive' topic is just too difficult.
Better to knock what policemen did 30 years ago than try and stop some white working class kids in care from being raped. Wouldn't want to heighten community tensions, would we?
Latino Decisions @LatinoDecisions
Week 7 Tracking Poll w @NALEO @Telemundo is out:
80% certain to vote; Clinton 74 - Trump 14
Full results: http://bit.ly/2dVrOFt
15
4
Frank Luntz
"Across all states with available data, early voting increased among Hispanics and decreased among young people."
https://t.co/jsWzJQSDwj https://t.co/GGC0PCg8Tc
The black vote has particularly plummeted in North Carolina and Ohio.
Potentially bad news for Hillary. https://t.co/svoIIUhEw0 https://t.co/ilOryzmQau
Meanwhile, white voters have increased in North Carolina and Ohio.
Potentially good news for Trump. https://t.co/svoIIUhEw0 https://t.co/KJpnm99Qka
The temporary injunction preventing the quartet of scum from seeing the young girl has also gone, I think.
Miss Plato, don't want him to win overall, but taking North Carolina would be good.
they had 13 years to call an enquiry, why didnt they?
"Alastair Carmichael is going round calling himself the Shadow First Secretary of State"
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/793139813889236992
Just because one does not agree with a particular inquiry or a particular form of an inquiry does not mean that one hates the white working class.
The miners were not angels in the strike and the behavior of some of them was appalling. But even if they behaved badly at Orgreave (or elsewhere) this does not excuse bad behavior by the police, not least because all of us are affected if the bodies responsible for our criminal and judicial system behave badly.
It is possible to:-
1. Think that some miners behaved appallingly and/or were very badly led by their union leaders.
2. Feel sympathy for mining communities who underwent significant change to long-standing communities, even if this was economically necessary. There is a human element which is too often forgotten and the tone of many in government at the time seemed quite harsh and unforgiving about the human consequences of such change.
3. Be critical of police behavior and want that looked into; and
4. Be disgusted at the utterly hypocritical stance taken by Labour which did nothing to address this issue when it was in a position to do so and seems (perhaps only to a cynic such as me) only interested in the white working class when it can be used for some ulterior purpose e.g. bashing the Tories. Where were Labour MPs decrying the social changes to long-standing working class communities caused by mass immigration, for instance?
all at the same time. Having one of these thoughts in one's head does not preclude having others as well.
Labour seems to be hypocrisy, sniping and grandstanding or nothing nowadays.
Carswell would most probably make a better go at holding the government to account than Labour.
I suppose under such a scenario there could, conceivably, be a shift from Lab 27%, LD 8% to Lab 25%, LD 10%, but it's not going to make a great deal of difference to either side. Cambridge would probably change hands again, and that's about it.
(PS Have to dissent on your view of rank and file union members. I am a union member, but wouldn't touch Labour with a ten-foot bargepole. A minority position, to be sure, but I very much doubt that I am alone.)
Some of the best lawyers around do not have law degrees. Years ago you did not need even to have a degree to become a lawyer and there were lots of legal executives who were not formally lawyers but knew as much about the practicalities of the law as many more qualified lawyers.
Now, unless you have been interning at a solicitor's firm since you were about 10 it is more or less impossible to get into the law at all, certainly if you have anything even remotely unusual about your background and/or education. And there are many people with law degrees who are not working as lawyers at all.
I'm not sure the effect of these changes has necessarily been an unmitigated good thing.
https://twitter.com/lenaepstein
Maybe the mistake here has been, as you imply, to raise expectations which have been dashed.
Personally, while I can see the reasons for not holding an inquiry into Orgreave specifically, I can see some benefit into holding some sort of review into police culture since some forces do seem to come up again and again when wrongdoing is alleged and/or found. That speaks to me of a poor culture, at best.
Willetts was a Tory Minister:
"Fees will rise to £6,000, with an upper tier of £9,000 if universities ensure access for poorer students.
Universities Minister David Willetts said this was a "progressive" reform.
But Mr Willetts said the fees package would "put universities' finance on a sustainable footing with extra freedoms and less bureaucracy".
He argued this would bring "greater choice for students with a stronger focus on high quality teaching".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11677862
' The NUM had held three ballots on national strikes: 55% voted against in January 1982, and 61% voted against in October 1982 and March 1983. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners'_strike_(1984–85)#Ballots
I had always know that there had been one rejection of a strike in a ballot but I never realised there were as many as three.
Chance of winning Clinton 76.1%, Trump 23.9%
Electoral College votes, Clinton: 313, Trump: 224
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/
Who would Hilary Clinton be? The bumbling President who obligingly hands all the important stuff to the Russians through a mix of well-meaning incompetence and mind-blowing carelessness or the completely ineffectual Lionel Mandrake?
While we know the vote percentages of Presidential elections is there any equivalents of the NEVs that are given for UK local elections for the US mid term elections.
It would be interesting to see what the base vote for each party was.
Coal mining is archaic. The industry was dying, and members of the Union, more importantly, were unelected and operating out of self interest.
The sad thing is that there was no real strategy for a post mining future.
"The Shadow Chancellor has no constitutional role"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ovatde-fQ
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/#plus
https://twitter.com/samsteinhp/status/793172938719653888
At that point, even if Scargill had not been possessed of the tactical acumen of a squashed roast potato, the self awareness of a Donald Trump and the democratic credentials of a despot, the government held all the aces.
Whether it's true I don't know, but Blake was pretty well-informed and it seems possible.
So yes, I'll have him in control over a warmongering lunatic.
Oh, now I remember
Clinton has to be the bumbling President. As for Trump and his sexual exploits (alleged or otherwise), he talks a lot. There is, I have sometimes observed, an inverse relationship between how much a man talks about these matters and his actual performance. But, frankly, I'd rather not go there. I still have my dinner to eat.
Which is one of the reasons why Scargill forced the strike in the spring of 1984.
If he had waited until the autumn then the coal stocks would have been even higher.
The irony is that it was Scargill's refusal to support any pit closures which partly led to so much coal being above ground in 1984.
Trump: Clinton email 'motherlode' found
The NUM's biggest strategic mistake was to go ahead with the strike despite the votes against it. It meant that the political nature of the strike was highlighted, put Labour in a very difficult position and pissed off many who did not like the "rules are for others" approach of the NUM leadership.
Having seen off one Tory government using bully boy tactics, the NUM thought they were invincible.
Hubris.