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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The coalition could be heading into stormy weather over the

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    Those of us of a certain age will be amused to see EXACTLY the same arguments used to oppose Royal Mail privatisation as were used to oppose BT privatisation - one of the most incontrovertible spectacular successes of any policy of the last half-century.

    Time for the Government to turn salesman again, turn this Royal Mail sale into another positive sign of our economic recovery in the run up to the next GE. And the Labour party will again have to decide which side of the argument it wants to come down on the side of and support.

  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Gone for 98!

    Serves him right. Impudent upstart.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    Agar is out for 98.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    AveryLP said:



    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    AveryLP said:

    Support for the Royal Mail remaining within the public sector is a symptom of infectious nostalgia, a particularly British disease. It is similar to the plague which has infected supporters of the NHS and its angels of death.

    It is nanny state comfort, red pillar boxes with cast-iron crown insignia, jolly bicycling postmen chased by barking dogs all straight out of Ealing Street Studios. It is island deliveries and penny postage.

    It is kindly matrons in village sub post offices delivering Christmas parcels to Hovis boys in shorts. It is Hornby train sets capturing plastic mail bags.

    It is pure Danny Boyle Olympics Opening Ceremony sentiment.

    There is no place in a progressive 21st Century Britain for such nonsense.



    Bravo sir. Common sense amongst the Daily Mailesque panic at upsetting the housewives that we see from the lefties.

    Tories like Thatcher opposed it.
    I assume to keep on subsidising rural Tory voters.

    But you're arguing that a private company should be set up with a remit to subsidise rural voters instead.
    Where's the free market logic in that?
    Privatising the Royal Mail is all about supply side reform, tim.

    Forget about interim price regulation and cross-subsidy. It will pass as a competitive market develops.

    meaningless piffle, the problems when they arise, like the banks will land back in the hands of the UK taxpayer.
    You are very grumpy today, Mr. Brooke.

    I fear some Warwickshire wag must have painted all the county's postboxes in a fetching shade of London 2012 magenta.

    Round here we paint them 2012 gold Mr Pole.

    As for grumpy, what do you expect ? Just when you think HMG might have come to its senses you get episode 26 of The Madness of Twerp George.

    Perhaps you could send him up here dressed as a grouse, about the 12th of August should be about right.

    Grouse did you say?

    He's a mean motherf*cking grouse shooter

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1zLNV2F_hRE/SeHyuXAiKkI/AAAAAAAABXs/Bxon2EROb7k/s400/george+osborne.jpg

    Lock and load man, lock and load.
    Shot, sir!

    please note how George's gun is cunningly pointed at his feet in that photo.
    The Bullingdon Club is not a urban street gang, Mr. Brooke.

    George is planning to free the sub post offices not hold them up.

    Given George's grasp of the real world I suspect he thinks sub post offices are a service provided by the Royal Navy.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    Not for the first time, UKIP voters are closer to Labour voters on an economic issue, than they are to Conservative voters. According to a the recent survey on Conservative Party members, those Conservative members who are contemplating voting UKIP are economically to the left of Conservative members who have no intention of voting UKIP. But socially, they are to the right of them.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    fitalass said:

    Time for the Government to turn salesman again, turn this Royal Mail sale into another positive sign of our economic recovery in the run up to the next GE. And the Labour party will again have to decide which side of the argument it wants to come down on the side of and support.

    Labour will of course, as usual, pretend to oppose it with a load of hypocritical cant (conveniently forgetting that Ed Miliband, Ed Balls and the rest of the top leadership were members of the cabinet when Labour tried to do the same), be evasive on what they would do instead, and finally admit through gritted teeth that they wouldn't reverse it.
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    GeoffM said:

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    Geoff,

    All public-sector pensions are unfunded*. Even Sven's true socialist one....

    * I do believe - and TD may correct me - that MoD (Service personnel) are funded via the budget and are fully contributory.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    If a former Glasgow Labour councillor thinks privatising the Royal Mail is a good idea, then we do truly live in interesting times.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited July 2013
    Also, this could be the third privatisation before the election, with sales of RBS and Lloyds/HBOS.

    And a Labour leader dealing with troublesome left wing of his party

    It's just like being in the 80s.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013

    If a former Glasgow Labour councillor thinks privatising the Royal Mail is a good idea, then we do truly live in interesting times.

    Well, a former Trotskyist who was Trade and Industry Secretary when Labour commissioned the first Hooper report in 2006, and was later Chancellor when they had another go, thought it a good idea, so maybe it's not so strange.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    Sean_F said:

    Not for the first time, UKIP voters are closer to Labour voters on an economic issue, than they are to Conservative voters. According to a the recent survey on Conservative Party members, those Conservative members who are contemplating voting UKIP are economically to the left of Conservative members who have no intention of voting UKIP. But socially, they are to the right of them.

    UKIP do badly in places like London where most Tory voters are socially liberal but right-wing on economics, probably because they've got plenty of money. It's no surprise that UKIP does well in places where the reverse is true like Lincolnshire.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    Re G4S, for those who have dealt with G4S and those in the Probation and Prison Service, I can say, we are truly shocked, shocked I tell you by these allegations.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    tim said:

    fitalass said:

    MaxPB said:

    I would venture that if it was Labour proposing the privatisation the Lab/Con support/oppose figures would be reversed. I don't know a single person that supports the privatisation, Lab or Tory. It's going to be a vote loser.

    I'm all in favour of privatising the Royal Mail. Why exactly does the Government need to be in the postal business in 2013?
    Best to get the government out of the mess that is the Royal Mail.

    The universal service is worth keeping, but I cannot see how it can be maintained in the long term. Successive governments have allowed the private sector in - initially for large parcels, and now for smaller ones. The RM's monopoly is long gone. They are being squeezed by competition in a market (for letters) that, junk mail aside, is reducing. Competition on profitable parcels service is fierce.

    It is hardly a sustainable business model for the long-term. They need to be freed up so they can truly invest and compete, or be kept in-house with the knowledge that losses to the taxpayer will mount.
    Bang on the money with that assessment Josias, well past time the Royal Mail was privatised as its a costly luxury we the taxpayer can no longer afford in the current economic climate.

    A "costly luxury"? err, doesn't it usually show a return for the govt?

    But if you're happy to see rural areas pay three or four times more for their services who am I to stop you.
    Although I doubt you are, i assume you want the market rigged?
    The only reason the RM is showing a profit is that they're continually putting the price of stamps up.

    See chart at:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17522500

    In such bulk numbers, a penny increase can make the difference between millions in loss or profit. There will be a price that the junk mailers are not willing to pay, and the volumes will plummet.

    Try as I might, I cannot see a way that the universal service can survive in the future. Which is a shame, as I want it to survive.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited July 2013

    If a former Glasgow Labour councillor thinks privatising the Royal Mail is a good idea, then we do truly live in interesting times.

    Well, a former Trotskyist who was Trade and Industry Secretary when Labour commissioned the first Hooper report in 2006, and was later Chancellor when they had another go, thought it a good idea, so maybe it's not so strange.
    Trots 4 Privatisation.

    I did read years ago, that it was the former communists in Eastern European that eventually became the biggest supporters of privitisation.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @TheScreamingEagles - I don't see the problem. After all, the real test should be the reoffending rate, and a dead man who is electronically tagged is not going to reoffend, is he?
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Royal baby name: print off your own sweepstake

    With the royal birth imminent, speculation is growing: what will the baby be called? Make your predictions with the Telegraph's sweepstake kit. Simply print it off and play

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/kate-middleton/10173337/Royal-baby-name-print-off-your-own-sweepstake.html
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    How the Labour leadership result changes under a one-member-one-vote system

    Had MPs' votes been treated in the same way as party members', Ed Miliband would have won a landslide victory.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/how-labour-leadership-result-changes-under-one-member-one-vote-system
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583

    @TheScreamingEagles - I don't see the problem. After all, the real test should be the reoffending rate, and a dead man who is electronically tagged is not going to reoffend, is he?

    Well there is that.

    But this is from 2007

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6485213.stm
  • Options

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    But it's not a cash sum that is guaranteed year on year. The government isn't in a position to invest in Royal Mail and it's going to need access to external funding to remain competitive. I don't really see how it does that whilst remaining in government hands.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:



    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    AveryLP said:

    Support for the Royal Mail remaining within the public sector is a symptom of infectious nostalgia, a particularly British disease. It is similar to the plague which has infected supporters of the NHS and its angels of death.

    It is nanny state comfort, red pillar boxes with cast-iron crown insignia, jolly bicycling postmen chased by barking dogs all straight out of Ealing Street Studios. It is island deliveries and penny postage.

    It is kindly matrons in village sub post offices delivering Christmas parcels to Hovis boys in shorts. It is Hornby train sets capturing plastic mail bags.

    It is pure Danny Boyle Olympics Opening Ceremony sentiment.

    There is no place in a progressive 21st Century Britain for such nonsense.



    Bravo sir. Common sense amongst the Daily Mailesque panic at upsetting the housewives that we see from the lefties.

    Tories like Thatcher opposed it.
    I assume to keep on subsidising rural Tory voters.

    But you're arguing that a private company should be set up with a remit to subsidise rural voters instead.
    Where's the free market logic in that?
    Privatising the Royal Mail is all about supply side reform, tim.

    Forget about interim price regulation and cross-subsidy. It will pass as a competitive market develops.

    meaningless piffle, the problems when they arise, like the banks will land back in the hands of the UK taxpayer.
    You are very grumpy today, Mr. Brooke.

    I fear some Warwickshire wag must have painted all the county's postboxes in a fetching shade of London 2012 magenta.

    Round here we paint them 2012 gold Mr Pole.

    As for grumpy, what do you expect ? Just when you think HMG might have come to its senses you get episode 26 of The Madness of Twerp George.

    Perhaps you could send him up here dressed as a grouse, about the 12th of August should be about right.

    Grouse did you say?

    He's a mean motherf*cking grouse shooter

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1zLNV2F_hRE/SeHyuXAiKkI/AAAAAAAABXs/Bxon2EROb7k/s400/george+osborne.jpg

    Lock and load man, lock and load.
    Shot, sir!

    please note how George's gun is cunningly pointed at his feet in that photo.
    The Bullingdon Club is not a urban street gang, Mr. Brooke.

    George is planning to free the sub post offices not hold them up.

    Given George's grasp of the real world I suspect he thinks sub post offices are a service provided by the Royal Navy.
    You are muddling fast lane and Faslane, Mr. Brooke.

    George is in the former. The subs (unfortunately) are in the latter.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    O/T - Someone is upset at a law firm in Manchester

    The spate of law firm dirty protests seems to have spread to Manchester, with Irwin Mitchell the latest victim.

    Staff came in on a Monday morning to find a neatly curled log next to the filing cabinets on the office's sixth floor. As that is where the firm's debt recovery subsidiary Ascent is located, staff initially suspected a disgruntled member of staff or possibly an irate wonga.com customer who had been deprived of his 52" flat screen TV.

    http://www.rollonfriday.com/TheNews/EuropeNews/tabid/58/Id/2782/fromTab/36/currentIndex/3/Default.aspx
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Off Topic....Although the current state of play in the cricket will not doubt feature in this thread. :)
    Daily Mail - Jealous Australians issue warning to its countrymen... about how unbearable the Brits are about to be thanks to Wimbledon victory, a new Royal baby and rugby victory for The Lions

    "Australians were warned today that the British are about to become unbearable - thanks to a series of recent and upcoming events that will have everyone beating their proud chests for weeks to come.

    An Australian newspaper has given notice to its readers that the imminent birth of a royal baby, Andy Murray's win at Wimbledon, The Lions victory over the Wallabies, the Tour de France and, by the looks of things The Ashes, Britain has much to shout about - and will keep on shouting.

    'Pity the poor 100,000 Australians living there, but hazards abound here at home - rugby tourists still lurk in Australian hotels, lolling about in self-satisfaction after their test victory,' says Sydney's Daily Telegraph.

    But in an attempt to boost the spirits of everyone Down Under in the face of an unstoppable swelling of British pride, the paper has listed 10 points that it says are worth reminding Britons about.

    For a start, there is the weather, with cricket officials at Trent Bridge, where the first of the Ashes is being played, looking at the skies and wondering just when rain will stop play.

    Then there is the English beer, bitter and lager, the bitter being bitter and warm, the lager tasting like gnat's p**s."



  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:



    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    AveryLP said:

    Support for the Royal Mail remaining within the public sector is a symptom of infectious nostalgia, a particularly British disease. It is similar to the plague which has infected supporters of the NHS and its angels of death.

    It is nanny state comfort, red pillar boxes with cast-iron crown insignia, jolly bicycling postmen chased by barking dogs all straight out of Ealing Street Studios. It is island deliveries and penny postage.

    It is kindly matrons in village sub post offices delivering Christmas parcels to Hovis boys in shorts. It is Hornby train sets capturing plastic mail bags.

    It is pure Danny Boyle Olympics Opening Ceremony sentiment.

    There is no place in a progressive 21st Century Britain for such nonsense.



    Bravo sir. Common sense amongst the Daily Mailesque panic at upsetting the housewives that we see from the lefties.

    Tories like Thatcher opposed it.
    I assume to keep on subsidising rural Tory voters.

    But you're arguing that a private company should be set up with a remit to subsidise rural voters instead.
    Where's the free market logic in that?
    Privatising the Royal Mail is all about supply side reform, tim.

    Forget about interim price regulation and cross-subsidy. It will pass as a competitive market develops.

    meaningless piffle, the problems when they arise, like the banks will land back in the hands of the UK taxpayer.
    You are very grumpy today, Mr. Brooke.

    I fear some Warwickshire wag must have painted all the county's postboxes in a fetching shade of London 2012 magenta.

    Round here we paint them 2012 gold Mr Pole.

    As for grumpy, what do you expect ? Just when you think HMG might have come to its senses you get episode 26 of The Madness of Twerp George.

    Perhaps you could send him up here dressed as a grouse, about the 12th of August should be about right.

    Grouse did you say?

    He's a mean motherf*cking grouse shooter

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1zLNV2F_hRE/SeHyuXAiKkI/AAAAAAAABXs/Bxon2EROb7k/s400/george+osborne.jpg

    Lock and load man, lock and load.
    Shot, sir!

    please note how George's gun is cunningly pointed at his feet in that photo.
    The Bullingdon Club is not a urban street gang, Mr. Brooke.

    George is planning to free the sub post offices not hold them up.

    Given George's grasp of the real world I suspect he thinks sub post offices are a service provided by the Royal Navy.
    You are muddling fast lane and Faslane, Mr. Brooke.

    George is in the former. The subs (unfortunately) are in the latter.

    I have no trouble accepting George is in the fast lane, it's just he doesn't know where he's going.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    What I object to is the pretence that a 1st class stamp still means next-day delivery. All it really means is it may arrive within a weekbut at least it won't take as long as for a 2nd class stamp.

    I'd like to know what they do with the 2nd-class stuff to delay it even longer than the 1st class. Seems to me it needs extra effort to delay something even longer than the natural process delays it, so really we ought to pay more if we want it delayed more than necessary..
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    When you go on the tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Piccadilly Gardens, about half way along the journey you often see people standing around outside a building with wigs on. I assume that's something to do with the crown court.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Andy_JS said:

    When you go on the tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Piccadilly Gardens, about half way along the journey you often see people standing around outside a building with wigs on. I assume that's something to do with the crown court.

    It may be the Mancunian branch of the PB executive.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    But it's not a cash sum that is guaranteed year on year. The government isn't in a position to invest in Royal Mail and it's going to need access to external funding to remain competitive. I don't really see how it does that whilst remaining in government hands.
    Of course it's not a cash sum that's guaranteed, it could go up even further.

    As for HMG can't invest, that's just nonsense on so many levels. What it means is HMG doesn't want to spend the cash since it has something it needs to waste it on.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Andy_JS said:

    When you go on the tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Piccadilly Gardens, about half way along the journey you often see people standing around outside a building with wigs on. I assume that's something to do with the crown court.

    Who would put wigs on a building?
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054
    Not watched the cricket but that's sad if the No.11 on his debut was out for 98. I always enjoyed watching the England tail bat in the old days. Certainly Malcolm and Tufnell were always good for a laugh.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited July 2013
    Andy_JS said:

    When you go on the tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Piccadilly Gardens, about half way along the journey you often see people standing around outside a building with wigs on. I assume that's something to do with the crown court.

    There's a court on Minshull street. Piccadilly Gardens is the place to go.

    Oxford Road is better, but full of students.

    Edit: You use the tram to go for Manc Picc to Piccadilly Gardens? That's a two min walk!
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
    Well there are lots of things one could say to that Charles, where is the evidence the there can be no investment, the issue is more we choose not to invest.

    Personally I'd have ringfenced the whole thing and made it a a mutual with a pension problem attached. The sale route will just end up with a problem being passed back to the taxpayer or if it should go well all the taxes being paid in Luxemburg and HMG out of pocket. The solution proposed is the lazy way out and stupid politics.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    Root out.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    "Forty-two years after it was released, classic family film The Railway Children has prompted its first complaint to the British Board of Film Classification.

    "The correspondent was concerned that children may be encouraged to play on railway tracks as a result of seeing the film," the BBFC's annual report reveals":


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23270980
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    Looks like Trott is out
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,907
    Which is worth more a 5th day test match ticket or a second class stamp?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,970
    Our batting is absolutely rank.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Shocking. Absolutely shocking.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,970
    We desperately need Cook and Pietersen to stay together. There is no way we can rely on Bell or Bairstow.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    Trott has been shafted because they're only using 2 hot spot cameras and not 4.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,970
    MaxPB said:

    Shocking. Absolutely shocking.

    Predictable. Absolutely predictable. Unfortunately. Our batting is appalling.

    If Pietersen and Cook do not build a partnership here it's game over.

  • Options
    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Last 10km of today's tour stage, will be a sprint finish, and one Cavendish really needs to win.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618


    Predictable. Absolutely predictable. Unfortunately. Our batting is appalling.

    If Pietersen and Cook do not build a partnership here it's game over.

    KP will struggle against a ball that hasn't been used enough yet, still another couple of difficult overs to get through first I think. Hopefully he doesn't come in all guns a blazing because Starc will get him through the gate.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    F1: new base for Honda in the UK due to F1 deal to supply McLaren with engines:
    http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/116077.html
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,907
    England's hopes now rest on a century from Anderson.
  • Options
    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    Oz commentator Tubby Taylor said if he had been 3rd umpire he would have said not out on that inside edge.
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    We desperately need Cook and Pietersen to stay together. There is no way we can rely on Bell or Bairstow.

    :tumbleweed:

    I'll bite. I reckon Bell and that Yorkshireman out-score Cook and da' Saffah.* Name your stake....

    * Declarations excluded.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,970
    MaxPB said:


    Predictable. Absolutely predictable. Unfortunately. Our batting is appalling.

    If Pietersen and Cook do not build a partnership here it's game over.

    KP will struggle against a ball that hasn't been used enough yet, still another couple of difficult overs to get through first I think. Hopefully he doesn't come in all guns a blazing because Starc will get him through the gate.

    Pietersen will give chances at the start. We just have to hope they are not taken and that Cook knuckles under. The thought of Bell and Bairstow walking in when the score is under 100 is not a comforting one. We need to get to a 250 lead minimum and even then we'll have a job defending it on a pitch which looks far from unplayable. The dream would be to get to day 4 and still be in, but with our batsmen that is even more unlikely than a test number 11 scoring 98!

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,970

    We desperately need Cook and Pietersen to stay together. There is no way we can rely on Bell or Bairstow.

    :tumbleweed:

    I'll bite. I reckon Bell and that Yorkshireman out-score Cook and da' Saffah.* Name your stake....

    * Declarations excluded.

    You could well be right. But that does not mean any of them will score many.

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
  • Options
    Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621

    Those of us of a certain age will be amused to see EXACTLY the same arguments used to oppose Royal Mail privatisation as were used to oppose BT privatisation - one of the most incontrovertible spectacular successes of any policy of the last half-century.

    Opening up the telecoms market was a long overdue reform and a major success. Whether the BT privatisation was the runaway success you say I'd question. The company was sold below value ( tax payer loss) nearly went bust 15 years later and isn't global player in anything.

    Since the package and postal market have already had a high degree of monopoly reform, there will be no similar gain with RM, we're dealing with the hard to handle bits now.
    Exactly. I wonder if we would have had mobile phones in the UK if telecoms hadn't been privatised. Most likely we would have had, but probably not in widespread use like they are now.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
    Well there are lots of things one could say to that Charles, where is the evidence the there can be no investment, the issue is more we choose not to invest.

    Personally I'd have ringfenced the whole thing and made it a a mutual with a pension problem attached. The sale route will just end up with a problem being passed back to the taxpayer or if it should go well all the taxes being paid in Luxemburg and HMG out of pocket. The solution proposed is the lazy way out and stupid politics.
    Sure, we choose not to invest. I'm just not convinced that the government are the best people to make investment decisions.

    In terms of ringfencing that doesn't work. If the pension liabilities were included with the business then the directors would be in danger of trading while insolvent. Even giving a generous 20 years to close the deficit that would more than absorb all of the operating profits of the business.

    Mutuals are, to my mind, the fashionable but lazy way out. They are okay, in specific situations, but these are rare and hard to create. With a good management team and a good culture the corporate structure is largely irrelevant.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054
    Southam - Has a number 11 ever been the highest scorer in a test match before? This is a very strange game. Since you're mentioning where people are from, I thought I'd point out that Cooky is half-welsh.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited July 2013
    @RichardNabavi

    'Labour will of course, as usual, pretend to oppose it with a load of hypocritical cant (conveniently forgetting that Ed Miliband, Ed Balls and the rest of the top leadership were members of the cabinet when Labour tried to do the same),'

    Surely we have to believe Peter Mandelson that the only reason Labour didn't go ahead with privatization was due to market conditions in mid 2009,as he had confirmed the go ahead only 6 months earlier?

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    Royal Baby Name Generator:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/royal-baby-name/index.html?Post+generic=?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

    Doubt 'Matthew Samuel Sebastian' Windsor will make it.....
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054

    Royal Baby Name Generator:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/royal-baby-name/index.html?Post+generic=?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

    Doubt 'Matthew Samuel Sebastian' Windsor will make it.....

    I'd love to see them choose something like Tyler Brooklyn just to p*ss off Katie Hopkins

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    "Ashton Agar – Proud to be of Sri Lankan heritage":

    http://www.sundaytimes.lk/120520/Sports/spt13.html
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
    Well there are lots of things one could say to that Charles, where is the evidence the there can be no investment, the issue is more we choose not to invest.

    Personally I'd have ringfenced the whole thing and made it a a mutual with a pension problem attached. The sale route will just end up with a problem being passed back to the taxpayer or if it should go well all the taxes being paid in Luxemburg and HMG out of pocket. The solution proposed is the lazy way out and stupid politics.
    Sure, we choose not to invest. I'm just not convinced that the government are the best people to make investment decisions.

    In terms of ringfencing that doesn't work. If the pension liabilities were included with the business then the directors would be in danger of trading while insolvent. Even giving a generous 20 years to close the deficit that would more than absorb all of the operating profits of the business.

    Mutuals are, to my mind, the fashionable but lazy way out. They are okay, in specific situations, but these are rare and hard to create. With a good management team and a good culture the corporate structure is largely irrelevant.
    I'd certainly agree with you on the last point on a good management team. Re insolvency, it sort of depends what you do, if HMG still has guarantor status they can trade happily and have the business set bonuses set on reducing the taxpayer liability.

    I'm amused at your comment on investment since presumably the corollary must hold true too ie they shouldn't make divestment decisions either or worse you just shouldn't trust HMG with money !
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    No peace for our Denis.

    “Having thoroughly reviewed the evidence gathered by the police, I have decided there is sufficient evidence and it is in the public interest to bring a criminal charge against Denis MacShane. This charge relates to fraudulent claims with a total value of £12,900.

    “The charge is of false accounting, contrary to the Theft Act 1968. It is alleged that Denis Macshane claimed expenses for research and translation services carried out by a company that did not carry out that work.”
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054
    tim - I think George has had a bit more colour in his cheeks recently.

    On Mandelson and Royal Mail privatisation, is it not possible that the Dark Lord will do one of his famous reversals like he did over HS2?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
    Well there are lots of things one could say to that Charles, where is the evidence the there can be no investment, the issue is more we choose not to invest.

    Personally I'd have ringfenced the whole thing and made it a a mutual with a pension problem attached. The sale route will just end up with a problem being passed back to the taxpayer or if it should go well all the taxes being paid in Luxemburg and HMG out of pocket. The solution proposed is the lazy way out and stupid politics.
    Sure, we choose not to invest. I'm just not convinced that the government are the best people to make investment decisions.

    In terms of ringfencing that doesn't work. If the pension liabilities were included with the business then the directors would be in danger of trading while insolvent. Even giving a generous 20 years to close the deficit that would more than absorb all of the operating profits of the business.

    Mutuals are, to my mind, the fashionable but lazy way out. They are okay, in specific situations, but these are rare and hard to create. With a good management team and a good culture the corporate structure is largely irrelevant.
    I'd certainly agree with you on the last point on a good management team. Re insolvency, it sort of depends what you do, if HMG still has guarantor status they can trade happily and have the business set bonuses set on reducing the taxpayer liability.

    I'm amused at your comment on investment since presumably the corollary must hold true too ie they shouldn't make divestment decisions either or worse you just shouldn't trust HMG with money !
    Politically it's tough to set bonuses as you suggest. Best way to reduce the liability would be to close the pension scheme / worsen the terms / sack the staff. Bosses get bonuses as staff suffer.

    I was using investment in the operational sense. Let's say Royal Mail wanted to spend £500m on a new piece of kit that would speed up deliveries. And George Osborne wanted to invest £500m in, for example, tax breaks for married couples. Which do you think would win in a discussion? The inability for management to plan and invest on a rational basis restricts the long-term potential of the business to grow and build value.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,990
    edited July 2013
    Trott shouldn't have been given out first ball it seems:
    "England have been told there was a technical problem with HotSpot, meaning vital replay which may have saved Trott was not available #Ashes
    Sam Sheringham 8 minutes ago"
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23261769
    "The Trott HotSpot plot thickens. (Trott HotSpot plot, like it?) Apparently, the side-on view wasn't available because the replay of the Joe Root dismissal, from the previous ball, was being readied. The system cannot record and play at the same time, a bit like an old VHS I suppose. Meanwhile, front on replays and the Snickometer show that Trott probably did not get an inside edge."
    http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/23261769
  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Unemployment data out this coming Wednesday, I think. Going to be vital in the coming months to bring it down further.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,446
    As long as the new private companies can charge less than 60p for 1st class mail then what would be the problem?
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054
    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Since the key issue is the pension fund deficit it would make more sense to run it to fill the hole.

    But it's a £9.5billion or so hole. You'd never fill that on profit in any realistic scenario.

    The privatisation proceeds are estimated at £2.5 billion. RM profits are £324m, what value of annuities would you have to buy to generate that cash sum ? The profits won't cover all the deficit but they will make the taxpayer liability much smaller.
    Deficit of £9.5bn will also be calculated off depressed yields so will be lower at normal rates. (Know the guy advising the government on the pension liabilities)
    Which is true Charles so the hole will get smaller, but it won't get to £2.5bn which is the estimated proceeds to clear the debt and at the moment the cash yield on RM profits is better for the taxpayer. So why does HMG want to force another loss on the taxpayer ? Bad economics, bad politics.
    The reality is the taxpayer already has the liability.

    So the choice is then either to take income of £350m p.a. and pour that into the general Treasury funds, but see that income stream decline over time as the business is competed into the ground (assuming under investment in state hands).

    Or you argue that £350m is as good as it will get, and you sell it at 8x to capitalise the income stream and allow someone else to invest to turn the business around.

    If you are worried about not getting value then the state could keep a stake (say 20%) so it can participate the future upside.

    The key question is who is best placed to make the Royal Mail an efficient and sustainable business. I'm not convinced that it is the government / civil servants.
    Well there are lots of things one could say to that Charles, where is the evidence the there can be no investment, the issue is more we choose not to invest.

    Personally I'd have ringfenced the whole thing and made it a a mutual with a pension problem attached. The sale route will just end up with a problem being passed back to the taxpayer or if it should go well all the taxes being paid in Luxemburg and HMG out of pocket. The solution proposed is the lazy way out and stupid politics.
    Sure, we choose not to invest. I'm just not convinced that the government are the best people to make investment decisions.

    In terms of ringfencing that doesn't work. If the pension liabilities were included with the business then the directors would be in danger of trading while insolvent. Even giving a generous 20 years to close the deficit that would more than absorb all of the operating profits of the business.

    Mutuals are, to my mind, the fashionable but lazy way out. They are okay, in specific situations, but these are rare and hard to create. With a good management team and a good culture the corporate structure is largely irrelevant.
    I'd certainly agree with you on the last point on a good management team. Re insolvency, it sort of depends what you do, if HMG still has guarantor status they can trade happily and have the business set bonuses set on reducing the taxpayer liability.

    I'm amused at your comment on investment since presumably the corollary must hold true too ie they shouldn't make divestment decisions either or worse you just shouldn't trust HMG with money !
    Politically it's tough to set bonuses as you suggest. Best way to reduce the liability would be to close the pension scheme / worsen the terms / sack the staff. Bosses get bonuses as staff suffer.

    I was using investment in the operational sense. Let's say Royal Mail wanted to spend £500m on a new piece of kit that would speed up deliveries. And George Osborne wanted to invest £500m in, for example, tax breaks for married couples. Which do you think would win in a discussion? The inability for management to plan and invest on a rational basis restricts the long-term potential of the business to grow and build value.
    My guess would be tax breaks would win and Osborne would shove taxes up ( stamp prices )
    to cover the investment. You're simply telling me we have politicians who are generous with other people's money.
  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Sunil: one of those private firms - I forget which - has said it wants 15,000 of its own postmen by 2015. We could have genuine pluralism soon.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,387
    I know we are supposed to have an economy as ropey as the technique of an England batsman but some rather odd developments chez moi over the last month. Firstly, my elder daughter finished her college course and got a weekend job within a week. Secondly, my younger daughter (16) picked up a call centre job at a party (not the last time that is going to happen, let me tell you).

    Today, however, took the biscuit. My elder daughter had an interview with the Health Board for an audio typist. She has no training and was surprised to learn she was to use a foot pedal. She really could not work out what the doctor was saying, let alone spell the medical terms. The position is a permanent one and she is going to University in September. She was phoned and offered the job within an hour. I love her dearly but did no one else turn up? What about all those people who have been attending audio typing classes?

    Both my daughters are bright, lively and personable (don't take after their father at all really) but really, how hard is it to get a job in depressed Dundee? Seems a bit strange to me.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    tim said:

    @Charles

    If Osborne needs £500m to "send out a signal" about marriage surely he can get it from people who are caring for disabled relatives and partners who need a spare room to do so, thus " sending out a signal" to them that if they care for a relative rather than leaving the state to do it this govt will screw them over financially because it needs the money for a tax break to married couples.

    shout away tim, but will Ed reverse it ?

    Pointless Labour.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    tim said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    If Osborne needs £500m to "send out a signal" about marriage surely he can get it from people who are caring for disabled relatives and partners who need a spare room to do so, thus " sending out a signal" to them that if they care for a relative rather than leaving the state to do it this govt will screw them over financially because it needs the money for a tax break to married couples.

    shout away tim, but will Ed reverse it ?

    Pointless Labour.
    When the final bill comes in I'd expect it to save very little or even cost money, the way rent arrears are racking up.
    Won't take too many carers to give up trying to look after relatives in the face of Camerons policy to cost social services more than it's saving.

    But Dave likes "sending out signals".
    On carers for disabled relatives his signal is" f*ck you"

    so that's Ed won't overturn it then ?

  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    If Osborne needs £500m to "send out a signal" about marriage surely he can get it from people who are caring for disabled relatives and partners who need a spare room to do so, thus " sending out a signal" to them that if they care for a relative rather than leaving the state to do it this govt will screw them over financially because it needs the money for a tax break to married couples.

    shout away tim, but will Ed reverse it ?

    Pointless Labour.
    When the final bill comes in I'd expect it to save very little or even cost money, the way rent arrears are racking up.
    Won't take too many carers to give up trying to look after relatives in the face of Camerons policy to cost social services more than it's saving.

    But Dave likes "sending out signals".
    On carers for disabled relatives his signal is" f*ck you"

    so that's Ed won't overturn it then ?

    Ed's next move is to change his name to Gideon by deed poll.

    UNITE permitting of course.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
    Tell you what Charles, why don't we SELL the tax consultancy to Pakistan ( since people never value what they get for free ) and give £50m to RM ? Win win I say :-)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    If Osborne needs £500m to "send out a signal" about marriage surely he can get it from people who are caring for disabled relatives and partners who need a spare room to do so, thus " sending out a signal" to them that if they care for a relative rather than leaving the state to do it this govt will screw them over financially because it needs the money for a tax break to married couples.

    shout away tim, but will Ed reverse it ?

    Pointless Labour.
    When the final bill comes in I'd expect it to save very little or even cost money, the way rent arrears are racking up.
    Won't take too many carers to give up trying to look after relatives in the face of Camerons policy to cost social services more than it's saving.

    But Dave likes "sending out signals".
    On carers for disabled relatives his signal is" f*ck you"

    so that's Ed won't overturn it then ?

    Ed's next move is to change his name to Gideon by deed poll.

    UNITE permitting of course.
    I think that's after an FU2 to carers by the look of things.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    If Osborne needs £500m to "send out a signal" about marriage surely he can get it from people who are caring for disabled relatives and partners who need a spare room to do so, thus " sending out a signal" to them that if they care for a relative rather than leaving the state to do it this govt will screw them over financially because it needs the money for a tax break to married couples.

    shout away tim, but will Ed reverse it ?

    Pointless Labour.
    When the final bill comes in I'd expect it to save very little or even cost money, the way rent arrears are racking up.
    Won't take too many carers to give up trying to look after relatives in the face of Camerons policy to cost social services more than it's saving.

    But Dave likes "sending out signals".
    On carers for disabled relatives his signal is" f*ck you"

    so that's Ed won't overturn it then ?

    Ed's next move is to change his name to Gideon by deed poll.

    UNITE permitting of course.
    GO could change rEds name for him - and the Labour manifesto still wouldn't promise to reverse it.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    More EU sleaze?

    Luxembourg's long-running Prime Minister (PM) Jean-Claude Juncker said he will step down following a security service scandal in the country.

    The former Eurogroup President and Luxembourg's PM since 1995 is expected to meet with Parliament in order to propose early elections and to resign following pressure from the governing coalition party.

    Juncker has lost support after being accused of letting the country's security agency illegally spy on politicians, use agency property privately, and take payments and favors.

    Luxembourg's long-running Prime Minister (PM) Jean-Claude Juncker said he will step down following a security service scandal in the country.

    The former Eurogroup President and Luxembourg's PM since 1995 is expected to meet with Parliament in order to propose early elections and to resign following pressure from the governing coalition party.

    Juncker has lost support after being accused of letting the country's security agency illegally spy on politicians, use agency property privately, and take payments and favors.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
    Tell you what Charles, why don't we SELL the tax consultancy to Pakistan ( since people never value what they get for free ) and give £50m to RM ? Win win I say :-)
    Because governments aren't in business?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    AveryLP said:

    More EU sleaze?

    Luxembourg's long-running Prime Minister (PM) Jean-Claude Juncker said he will step down following a security service scandal in the country.

    The former Eurogroup President and Luxembourg's PM since 1995 is expected to meet with Parliament in order to propose early elections and to resign following pressure from the governing coalition party.

    Juncker has lost support after being accused of letting the country's security agency illegally spy on politicians, use agency property privately, and take payments and favors.

    Luxembourg's long-running Prime Minister (PM) Jean-Claude Juncker said he will step down following a security service scandal in the country.

    The former Eurogroup President and Luxembourg's PM since 1995 is expected to meet with Parliament in order to propose early elections and to resign following pressure from the governing coalition party.

    Juncker has lost support after being accused of letting the country's security agency illegally spy on politicians, use agency property privately, and take payments and favors.

    Corruption ? In Luxemburg ? Next you'll be telling me there's smuggling in South Armagh.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
    Tell you what Charles, why don't we SELL the tax consultancy to Pakistan ( since people never value what they get for free ) and give £50m to RM ? Win win I say :-)
    Because governments aren't in business?
    Tell that to speed camera partnerships.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2013

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
    Tell you what Charles, why don't we SELL the tax consultancy to Pakistan ( since people never value what they get for free ) and give £50m to RM ? Win win I say :-)
    Because governments aren't in business?
    Tell that to speed camera partnerships.
    You're grumpy today, aren't you. Why don't you go down the pub and have a nice drink given it's such a lovely afternoon?
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    I see Cook and KP are playing for a draw. Very sensible ploy with only 3 more days left.
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    @Anorak
    Better this than the cavalier batting of the first innings.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles - Business investment is so awful in this country I wouldn't bank on anyone spending £500m!

    Make it £50m if you want. The argument still stands. Politicians want to spend money on things that win votes, not things that make sense
    Charles HMG is currently able to find £50m to train tax inspectors in Pakistan. Where are the votes in that ?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-supports-pakistan-to-grow-tax-base

    Where do I vote no ?
    Of course the government can find £50m or £500m.

    My point was simply that a bunch of politicians are going to be driven by motivations other than the optimal level of investment in a company
    Tell you what Charles, why don't we SELL the tax consultancy to Pakistan ( since people never value what they get for free ) and give £50m to RM ? Win win I say :-)
    Because governments aren't in business?
    Tell that to speed camera partnerships.
    You're grumpy today, aren't you. Why don't you go down the pub and have a nice drink given it's such a lovely afternoon?
    I told Avery I was when he started on the RM. And I've cut the lawn in between posts so that doesn't help.

    I know what you mean re political interference, but as ever it's just the usual UK solution to hot potatoes - run away and hide, just anything other than sort out the problem. Why can't we get more Germans to emigrate here, at least their not afraid of taking on a hard task.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    @Anorak
    Better this than the cavalier batting of the first innings.

    True. I left the office at about 11:30 today with the Aussies on 120/9 (or thereabouts). Got back at 4pm for a bit of a shock.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good evening. Poor day for Els in Scotland today.

    @politicshome
    Francis Maude tells #PM some "utterly deplorable" cases do not mean whole process of private sector contracting is flawed.

    It's amazing that the conservative party, the so called party of and for business, has no idea how to conduct business contracts and negotiations. And why is this? Because the modern Tories have had no job outside the Westminster Bubble. The way Maude answered ‎Eddie Mair was pathetic. You could almost hear him crying, enough!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23272708

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MikeK said:

    Good evening. Poor day for Els in Scotland today.

    @politicshome
    Francis Maude tells #PM some "utterly deplorable" cases do not mean whole process of private sector contracting is flawed.

    It's amazing that the conservative party, the so called party of and for business, has no idea how to conduct business contracts and negotiations. And why is this? Because the modern Tories have had no job outside the Westminster Bubble. The way Maude answered ‎Eddie Mair was pathetic. You could almost hear him crying, enough!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23272708

    Which Con minister was at fault back in 2008 ?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    Good evening. Poor day for Els in Scotland today.

    @politicshome
    Francis Maude tells #PM some "utterly deplorable" cases do not mean whole process of private sector contracting is flawed.

    It's amazing that the conservative party, the so called party of and for business, has no idea how to conduct business contracts and negotiations. And why is this? Because the modern Tories have had no job outside the Westminster Bubble. The way Maude answered ‎Eddie Mair was pathetic. You could almost hear him crying, enough!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23272708

    Which Con minister was at fault back in 2008 ?
    The Tories at least, should have started checking contracts as soon as the government was formed. Epic fail!
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited July 2013
    "The coalition could be heading into stormy weather over the Royal Mail privatisation"

    Or to be slightly more accurate Clegg is heading for trouble as quite a few lib dems were none too happy about this yesterday to say the least. Clegg's 'masochism strategy' needs a bit more work as this was presented in such a patronising 'nothing to worry your pretty little heads about' way by his loyal spinners.

    Cammie can probably deal with any tory disquiet on this as the polling is manageable and his swivel-eyed loons will always care far more about Europe and immigration.

    Cammie's amusingly inept spinners will just rant on about BT and that will be enough for gullible tories.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    MikeK said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    Good evening. Poor day for Els in Scotland today.

    @politicshome
    Francis Maude tells #PM some "utterly deplorable" cases do not mean whole process of private sector contracting is flawed.

    It's amazing that the conservative party, the so called party of and for business, has no idea how to conduct business contracts and negotiations. And why is this? Because the modern Tories have had no job outside the Westminster Bubble. The way Maude answered ‎Eddie Mair was pathetic. You could almost hear him crying, enough!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23272708

    Which Con minister was at fault back in 2008 ?
    The Tories at least, should have started checking contracts as soon as the government was formed. Epic fail!
    Do you honestly believe such action is plausible? Checking all private sector contracts?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    James Forsyth:

    "If a shark stops moving it dies. In the Prime Minister and deputy Prime Minister’s office, they believe that the same applies to the coalition. Their view is that if it is going to make it to 2015, it needs to be doing things right up until parliament is dissolved and the election called.

    To this end, as I reveal in the column this week, they’ve commissioned Oliver Letwin, David Laws and Jo Johnson to sit down and see what else the coalition can do between now and 2015. One of those involved in the talks says ‘we’re pretty confident we can still do deals on various things.’"

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/07/david-cameron-and-nick-clegg-moving-like-sharks-to-keep-the-coalition-going/

    We've already heard about the West Lothian Question, and today confirmation of Marriage tax breaks.....what else would keep both sides (reasonably) happy?
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    MikeK said:


    The Tories at least, should have started checking contracts as soon as the government was formed. Epic fail!

    Err, they did exactly that, and have been doing some truly excellent work. This is one of the coalition's epic successes. The bit I know most about is the IT procurement contracts which they have been going through in detail. Some astonishing examples of waste and incompetence have been uncovered, and basically they are going back to the suppliers and strong-arming them into accepting more commercial terms.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    MikeK said:

    TGOHF said:

    MikeK said:

    Good evening. Poor day for Els in Scotland today.

    @politicshome
    Francis Maude tells #PM some "utterly deplorable" cases do not mean whole process of private sector contracting is flawed.

    It's amazing that the conservative party, the so called party of and for business, has no idea how to conduct business contracts and negotiations. And why is this? Because the modern Tories have had no job outside the Westminster Bubble. The way Maude answered ‎Eddie Mair was pathetic. You could almost hear him crying, enough!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23272708

    Which Con minister was at fault back in 2008 ?
    The Tories at least, should have started checking contracts as soon as the government was formed. Epic fail!
    The evidence to date is not that the contract was flawed, but that one contractor may have behaved fraudulently - something the last government may not have responded to with sufficient alacrity....I suspect you will find more rewarding avenues for your Tory bashing than this......
This discussion has been closed.