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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GOP VP Nominee Pence comes out best in the VP debate polls

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    Indigo said:

    tyson said:

    I see farage is back as leader. Perhaps he felt left out by May

    He never left, James didn't sign the papers to take over from him before she quit.
    UKIP Leaders and their paperwork problems.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,792
    "Don't call me a racist" is perhaps not the ideal media approach...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035

    If Amber Rudd could ever be described as impressive, it wouldn't be in a good way.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,020

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sadly, some PB people are less concerned about the welfare of their fellow citizens and worry more about the welfare of citizens from outside the UK.

    Rubbish, I think telling people who will have been in this country for a minimum of 9 years to bugger off in 2025 is completely wrong. Shaming companies who do nothing outside of the law is wrong. Firefighting against the symptoms and increasing the size and reach of government is not the Tory way. We must look at the cause of why companies are so ready to hire foreign workers, we need root and branch reform of our education sector and for universities to stop buggering about with safe spaces and get back to helping students obtaining excellence.
    I refer you to that airplane cleaning company example I quoted elsewhere on here and its practice of hiring spanish workers (also Charles and the polish workers). Education is not the grounds on who they hire to clean inside planes. Research has found (quoted on BBC) that >80% (I recall 85%) of EU workers that came in last year are unskilled and would not meet the criteria that non-EU workers have to achieve.
    So let's figure out a way to make these jobs more attractive to British people. It means solving the fundamental problems of low wages and high living costs. Not just firefighting.
    1. Advertise first in the UK.
    2. Suppress benefit payment increases.
    3. No benefits to foreign workers until they have worked here for 5+ years.
    4. Bring in work permit charges of ideally £10,000+ pa. (Covers NHS etc costs)
    5. Build >100,000 houses/flats in London each year.
    May then have no need for limits.
    You presumably expect these migrants to pay taxes? If so why charge them £10k on top for the NHS that they are already paying for, especially if you are going to deny them any other in work benefits?

    Incidentally, anyone resident for 5 years will be eligible for UK citizenship
    The £10k is to encourage the employer to actually train someone up rather than employing a foreigner.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    tyson said:

    stodge said:

    Just a thought - once outside the EU and not subject to its FOM rules, could we not introduce something akin to the Gastarbeiter programme of the 60s and 70s ? Migrants would be allowed to work here for 1-2 years on a fixed contract supported by an employer who might also have to contribute to housing and other costs.

    Once the Contract is over, the migrant goes home with any monies saved and makes way for a new migrant.


    Great idea- we can also get them to wear a shirt with a huge M so we can all know they are a migrant. But we shouldn't allow them in public places outside work.

    Stodge comrade....do you remotely realise how terrible you sound?
    Further to Rudd's name and shame idea, can we paint yellow crosses on migrants houses doors. Maybe we can introduce some kind of Heidrich criteria- what about half migrants, migrant children, quarter migrants.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    So how would this have applied to my grandfather?

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/783195009550024704

    Well not at all since he would have been a citizen by then, can't deport citizens. I still find the rhetoric a bit off.
    The rhetoric is appalling. People who are living and working here legally and their employers should not be shamed into anything or ashamed of what they are doing. We should be ashamed of talking about people and firms in such a way.

    I do think there should be controls on immigration which have the consent of the majority of the population and set out some basic principles in a thread header earlier this year. What those controls should be is a matter for legitimate and civilised debate.

    Making sure that British citizens are given the tools and opportunities to take the jobs that are available is an absolutely honourable and necessary course of action. But that involves looking at ourselves and remedying our own failings not pointing at others and accusing them. Beams and motes.....

    But ad hominem nastiness is absolutely the wrong way to go about this important subject.

    Just as it was when Labour attacked companies over their legal tax arrangements or both parties did to individuals over their tax affairs.

    How I long for some grown ups in politics.
    For what it's worth as someone very much interested in tougher immigration control that works for the British people these proposal seem mad.

    The cynic in me think this is just deliberately controversial to appeal to some fools in the knowledge it will never actually happen as rightly it will be made a mockery of. May can then say "oh well, we tried" and kick the migration into the long grass.

    This is a big big mistake.
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    MaxPB said:

    Something along those lines, at least make it contributory and eliminate housing benefits and all in working benefits. Wage subsidies are just corporate subsidies.

    Except there's next to no such thing as "wage subsidies" in this country. Benefits are for housing, or children not wages. To my knowledge only basic Working Tax Credits are linked to wages alone, rather than whether you're married or have kids etc which isn't to do with wages or corporations.
    To continue this thought it is utterly ludicrous to make corporations responsible for how many children a family has etc

    Lets say I have a few jobs available and hire at a "living wage" a couple to both work full time. Their household has two full time incomes, they have no kids, they pay a mortgage each month with their wages. They don't receive a single penny of benefits. Clearly there is no so-called "wage subsidy" or "corporate subsidy" to this couple, is there?

    Now lets say I hire at the EXACT SAME WAGE for the EXACT SAME JOB a single mother of five who is only available to work part time while the kids are at school. Responsible corporations are supposed to be offering flexible part time working that suits the needs of single parents, but this mother only receives 16 hours a week of part time wages and then further receives five sets of Child Tax Credits and Housing Benefit etc. How is that a corporate subsidy? Is my corporation responsible for her being single or having children?

    The logical outcome of suggesting that welfare is a corporate subsidy is to suggest that companies shouldn't hire single parents if they don't wish to be "subsidised". I would suggest that is counter-productive.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    I feel now is an optimum time to remind the site I said, when Rudd was appointed Home Secretary, it was to help make May look good by comparison (and to have another top female but one whose lightweight nature prevented her being a threat).
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151


    What's at issue is whether you expand contribution. Seems the only hope for the welfare state to me and could be made into a system that people are prepared to pay in because it offer proper protection if disaster strikes e.g. 70% of income for first 6 months of unemployment.

    This describes the Japanese system almost exactly. It's 3 months if you leave your job of your own accord, and longer (depending on age and time since you last claimed) if you get fired or made redundant. When you leave a job you tell your employer whether you'd rather have left of your own accord or have been made redundant.

    People doing short-term or dispatch work take the piss out of this system quite a lot; You can work for a year, then take three months off, then work for another year...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,222
    tyson said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    So how would this have applied to my grandfather?

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/783195009550024704

    Well not at all since he would have been a citizen by then, can't deport citizens. I still find the rhetoric a bit off.
    The rhetoric is appalling. People who are living and working here legally and their employers should not be shamed into anything or ashamed of what they are doing. We should be ashamed of talking about people and firms in such a way.

    I do think there should be controls on immigration which have the consent of the majority of the population and set out some basic principles in a thread header earlier this year. What those controls should be is a matter for legitimate and civilised debate.

    Making sure that British citizens are given the tools and opportunities to take the jobs that are available is an absolutely honourable and necessary course of action. But that involves looking at ourselves and remedying our own failings not pointing at others and accusing them. Beams and motes.....

    But ad hominem nastiness is absolutely the wrong way to go about this important subject.

    Just as it was when Labour attacked companies over their legal tax arrangements or both parties did to individuals over their tax affairs.

    How I long for some grown ups in politics.
    Language is so important.

    The rhetoric that is spewing out of the Tory leadership is horrific. It's beyond appalling. I had to switch off the radio this morning because my wife was close to tears....anger. How dare they stigmatise foreigners with this language?

    Ultimately the UK is a tolerant country. May will quickly realise that she has misjudged the public mood playing to the Daily Mail and Sun.
    I quite agree. Tone matters.

    How one says things matters as much as what one says.

    It is an amusing irony that all those companies who boast in their annual reports about all the steps they are taking to increase diversity will, if this silly proposal goes through, have to make sure that they are not too diverse.

    Honestly, this is so infantile. Issues about culture, identity, what "home" means, immigration, diversity, integration, what is good for the economy, who benefits and who bears the costs of immigration are far too important for this sort of crude nonsense.

    I hope you had a good summer in Italy. I am hoping to be back there later this month for a bit of R&R but have a work trip to Singapore first.
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    You'd make a dead man cum eh Mrs May?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,222

    I feel now is an optimum time to remind the site I said, when Rudd was appointed Home Secretary, it was to help make May look good by comparison (and to have another top female but one whose lightweight nature prevented her being a threat).

    There are intelligent women available. Not many in politics,alas.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    Ruth Davidson:

    Conference, that internationalism abroad must find its echo at home.

    We must not forget our own party’s history and values.

    I once listened to Sir John Major tell of his childhood in Brixton – then an area where many new arrivals to Britain set up their first home.

    And he talked of his Conservative values and those of his neighbours – and said there is nothing as Conservative as pulling your loved ones close and striking out to build a better future for your family.

    So as we have difficult – but necessary – debates on how we manage borders in future, let us not forget that behind discussions of numbers and rules and criteria, there lies people and homes and families.

    And for those who have already chosen to build a life, open a business, make a contribution, I say this is your home, and you are welcome here.

    The Conservative party I know is optimistic in spirit and internationalist in outlook – we are an outward looking people, and so we must remain.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/full-text-ruth-davidsons-conservative-party-conference-speech/
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272
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    I feel now is an optimum time to remind the site I said, when Rudd was appointed Home Secretary, it was to help make May look good by comparison (and to have another top female but one whose lightweight nature prevented her being a threat).

    Rudd could have chosen better policies to reduce immigration. Instead she chose a ham fisted approach. Much as she did with that awful line about Boris and cars. The lady has no class.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    That long brooch thingy on her chest looks like it could easily be some sort of weapon?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Cyclefree said:

    It is an amusing irony that all those companies who boast in their annual reports about all the steps they are taking to increase diversity will, if this silly proposal goes through, have to make sure that they are not too diverse.

    You appear to be conflating race and nationality ?

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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272

    Would that be the US that we're in an economic and political union with.

    Oh, wait....
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    eekeek Posts: 25,020

    MaxPB said:

    Something along those lines, at least make it contributory and eliminate housing benefits and all in working benefits. Wage subsidies are just corporate subsidies.

    Except there's next to no such thing as "wage subsidies" in this country. Benefits are for housing, or children not wages. To my knowledge only basic Working Tax Credits are linked to wages alone, rather than whether you're married or have kids etc which isn't to do with wages or corporations.
    To continue this thought it is utterly ludicrous to make corporations responsible for how many children a family has etc

    Lets say I have a few jobs available and hire at a "living wage" a couple to both work full time. Their household has two full time incomes, they have no kids, they pay a mortgage each month with their wages. They don't receive a single penny of benefits. Clearly there is no so-called "wage subsidy" or "corporate subsidy" to this couple, is there?

    Now lets say I hire at the EXACT SAME WAGE for the EXACT SAME JOB a single mother of five who is only available to work part time while the kids are at school. Responsible corporations are supposed to be offering flexible part time working that suits the needs of single parents, but this mother only receives 16 hours a week of part time wages and then further receives five sets of Child Tax Credits and Housing Benefit etc. How is that a corporate subsidy? Is my corporation responsible for her being single or having children?

    The logical outcome of suggesting that welfare is a corporate subsidy is to suggest that companies shouldn't hire single parents if they don't wish to be "subsidised". I would suggest that is counter-productive.
    Wearing my devil advocates hat

    Working tax credits are encouraging the wrong people to have children while keeping other costs so high they stop others from having children full stop.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    And a nice shout out for our Dave. Just a shame about all the explosions.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272

    We have the second highest number of Nobel Laureates in the world, 20 more than Germany, and more than double France.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,020

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272

    ISTR that we were quite happy to accept Andre Geim and Konstantine Novoselov as 'our' Nobel laureates when they won for their discovery of Graphene.

    In the former's case, some of us accepted him as British when he won an ig Nobel award for levitating frogs. And he wasn't even British then. ;)

    http://www.ru.nl/hfml/research/levitation/diamagnetic/
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    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Something along those lines, at least make it contributory and eliminate housing benefits and all in working benefits. Wage subsidies are just corporate subsidies.

    Except there's next to no such thing as "wage subsidies" in this country. Benefits are for housing, or children not wages. To my knowledge only basic Working Tax Credits are linked to wages alone, rather than whether you're married or have kids etc which isn't to do with wages or corporations.
    To continue this thought it is utterly ludicrous to make corporations responsible for how many children a family has etc

    Lets say I have a few jobs available and hire at a "living wage" a couple to both work full time. Their household has two full time incomes, they have no kids, they pay a mortgage each month with their wages. They don't receive a single penny of benefits. Clearly there is no so-called "wage subsidy" or "corporate subsidy" to this couple, is there?

    Now lets say I hire at the EXACT SAME WAGE for the EXACT SAME JOB a single mother of five who is only available to work part time while the kids are at school. Responsible corporations are supposed to be offering flexible part time working that suits the needs of single parents, but this mother only receives 16 hours a week of part time wages and then further receives five sets of Child Tax Credits and Housing Benefit etc. How is that a corporate subsidy? Is my corporation responsible for her being single or having children?

    The logical outcome of suggesting that welfare is a corporate subsidy is to suggest that companies shouldn't hire single parents if they don't wish to be "subsidised". I would suggest that is counter-productive.
    Wearing my devil advocates hat

    Working tax credits are encouraging the wrong people to have children while keeping other costs so high they stop others from having children full stop.
    That I agree with but that's between government and the citizens involved - it has the square root of sod all to do with corporations. I have never been in an employees bedroom when they were making that sort of decision!
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    Philip Green, ex BHS, on warning from Mrs May.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    International elites have been put on notice that things have to change. Fantastic Mrs May!
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052

    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272

    We can't afford the US University system. We just have to do our best. And as has been done to death there are currently far more immigrants than emigrants.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...
    May I ask what part of the tech sector you are in?

    I'm wondering if I'm sort of lucky dinosaur: I don't have a degree, yet alone in tech, and I've done okay for myself. Am I the last of a dying breed in the tech sector?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    To give May some credit, she is clearly able to say things that resonate with non-Tories (such as myself). But I don't yet see the policies that will make her aspirations happen?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    It would be refreshing if the government started worrying less about immigrants and more about emigrants:

    https://twitter.com/kahoakes/status/783606607225782272

    Just out of interest, how many foreign born Nobel Prize winners are there living in UK?
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    BOOOM 'The nasty party'.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...

    Also because working in IT sucks unless you are one of the lucky few.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/08/11/think-your-job-is-bad-try-one-of-these/

    (Did 25 years in Corporate and Contract IT before I saw the light!)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    BOOOM 'The nasty party'.

    :)

    Though before that, she accused Labour of plotting against MPs and taking their jobs.

    Exactly what many Conservatives did to Cameron ... ;)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Oh that "nasty party" line is good.

    I've spent the day being rude about her government, but Theresa May just won the conference season with that line.
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    Indigo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is an amusing irony that all those companies who boast in their annual reports about all the steps they are taking to increase diversity will, if this silly proposal goes through, have to make sure that they are not too diverse.

    You appear to be conflating race and nationality ?

    Personally I don't think that employers should do any sociological monitioring.

    However the left established the principle by making them monitor ethnicity, gender, sexuality disablement etc. Now they bitch that someone else has decided to make companies monitor something they don't want monitoring (nationality).

    As with so many Blair era policies they didnt think through the long term and how future governments of a different bent would use their exciting progressive laws.

    The left have been hoist by their own petard and Mrs May is bringing forward policies that put them on the wrong side of the argument in social matters in much the same way that Osborne did in economic matters.

    The difference is that May appears to be doing it because it supports a principle she believes in and is for the greater good. Osborne appeared not to care for the principle, only whether it gave party advantage.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @tlg86 Amber Rudd wants to shame the universities that employ them.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...
    May I ask what part of the tech sector you are in?

    I'm wondering if I'm sort of lucky dinosaur: I don't have a degree, yet alone in tech, and I've done okay for myself. Am I the last of a dying breed in the tech sector?
    Yes, you probably are. Individual portfolios and self teaching are not as valued as they used to be, even though I think they should be. At least when my time in computing was coming to an end everyone entering the sector were just a mildly different versions of each other.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Sheer brilliance from May - casting today's Labour as the nasty party
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Oh that "nasty party" line is good.

    I've spent the day being rude about her government, but Theresa May just won the conference season with that line.

    Yup.

    The red lines on immigration and ECJ will be clipped on every new programme too.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,222

    Oh that "nasty party" line is good.

    I've spent the day being rude about her government, but Theresa May just won the conference season with that line.

    What was the line, please?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    This is a great but largely empty speech - how is all of this going to happen?
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    jeez that was almost thatcher levels of rhetoric on defence.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    The PM is certainly setting herself a incredibly high bar here on her Brexit aspirations.

    Impossibly so, I suspect.

    Has she not learnt from Cameron's abject failure to meet his Bloomberg objectives?

    If she delivers though...
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    eekeek Posts: 25,020
    edited October 2016

    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...
    May I ask what part of the tech sector you are in?

    I'm wondering if I'm sort of lucky dinosaur: I don't have a degree, yet alone in tech, and I've done okay for myself. Am I the last of a dying breed in the tech sector?
    I'm an IT contractor - specializing in a particular Microsoft product (Dynamics CRM / or Dynamics 365 as of next Tuesday) nowadays.

    You really only have to look around you, look at the company you are in and work out what the career path you would need to get various positions in the company. Then try to work out how you would get there since work began to be offshored... Then go and try something else.

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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    @tlg86 Amber Rudd wants to shame the universities that employ them.

    Obviously that's stupid, and fwiw I take the cynical view that this is the Tories doing what they do best - talking tough but actually not doing anything. As many have already pointed out, what we need to address is the reason why firms feel they have to look abroad to fill jobs. Some of the reasons might not go down well with the electorate, but we need some home truths.

    But anyway, I'm guessing the Nobel scientists have been living outside of the UK since before 23 June?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Cyclefree said:

    Oh that "nasty party" line is good.

    I've spent the day being rude about her government, but Theresa May just won the conference season with that line.

    What was the line, please?
    Basically a reprise of her words from all those years ago, but aimed at Labour
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    Oh that "nasty party" line is good.
    ........... but Theresa May just won the conference season with that line.

    Agreed.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Indigo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is an amusing irony that all those companies who boast in their annual reports about all the steps they are taking to increase diversity will, if this silly proposal goes through, have to make sure that they are not too diverse.

    You appear to be conflating race and nationality ?

    Personally I don't think that employers should do any sociological monitioring.

    However the left established the principle by making them monitor ethnicity, gender, sexuality disablement etc. Now they bitch that someone else has decided to make companies monitor something they don't want monitoring (nationality).

    As with so many Blair era policies they didnt think through the long term and how future governments of a different bent would use their exciting progressive laws.

    The left have been hoist by their own petard and Mrs May is bringing forward policies that put them on the wrong side of the argument in social matters in much the same way that Osborne did in economic matters.

    The difference is that May appears to be doing it because it supports a principle she believes in and is for the greater good. Osborne appeared not to care for the principle, only whether it gave party advantage.
    Yup, I'd like to know where people are employed - I don't give a toss about who they sleep with. Or religious whatever.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,779

    Ruth Davidson:

    Conference, that internationalism abroad must find its echo at home.

    We must not forget our own party’s history and values.

    I once listened to Sir John Major tell of his childhood in Brixton – then an area where many new arrivals to Britain set up their first home.

    And he talked of his Conservative values and those of his neighbours – and said there is nothing as Conservative as pulling your loved ones close and striking out to build a better future for your family.

    So as we have difficult – but necessary – debates on how we manage borders in future, let us not forget that behind discussions of numbers and rules and criteria, there lies people and homes and families.

    And for those who have already chosen to build a life, open a business, make a contribution, I say this is your home, and you are welcome here.

    The Conservative party I know is optimistic in spirit and internationalist in outlook – we are an outward looking people, and so we must remain.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/full-text-ruth-davidsons-conservative-party-conference-speech/

    I fear Ruth Davidson went off message there. Some autonomy in the colonies, I guess. Kudos, nevertheless to Ms Davidson, who is the classy one at this conference.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,020
    Indigo said:

    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...

    Also because working in IT sucks unless you are one of the lucky few.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/08/11/think-your-job-is-bad-try-one-of-these/

    (Did 25 years in Corporate and Contract IT before I saw the light!)
    I sat in a niche consultancy for 8 years before going back to contracting to retain control of my career. The trick is to do stuff you enjoy and where you know the bodies are buried.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Tell you what everyone....if Trump needed a template.....
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    edited October 2016
    It is nevertheless remarkable that she's been going for ages but has yet to make a single concrete policy proposal that would do anything to address any of the very real issues and concerns she has mapped out in her speech...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    Really bothers me that Whenever there is an immigrantion debate the immediate response is what about NHS / foreign doctors. There are hardly any delevoped nations where as a doctor you will struggle to get a work permit & whatever policy the government pursue it won't change that.

    The issue is much more relevant in the private sector, where there is much more variability in what fields get work permits from country to country.

    Done incorrectly, it will destroy the country's tech industry.
    It already has in the UK. Looking around me there is no chance of a youngster getting decent career progression unless he's very lucky with the career advice he gets...
    May I ask what part of the tech sector you are in?

    I'm wondering if I'm sort of lucky dinosaur: I don't have a degree, yet alone in tech, and I've done okay for myself. Am I the last of a dying breed in the tech sector?
    Yes, you probably are. Individual portfolios and self teaching are not as valued as they used to be, even though I think they should be. At least when my time in computing was coming to an end everyone entering the sector were just a mildly different versions of each other.
    I used to interview graduates, and you could always tell the people who had taught themselves and got a degree afterwards: they had a depth of knowledge that came from having done things wrong many, many times before learning the correct way. :) It is a valuable skill IMO.

    As an amusing (for me) aside: a few years ago I went for an interview with a start-up to do a small amount of contracting. When I turned up I recognised the interviewer's face: it was someone I had interviewed many years earlier for a graduate job. We chatted for a while, and he smirked as he handed over a programming test. It was the same one I had given him all those years ago.

    Needless to say, I passed.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534
    edited October 2016
    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/lower middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and is proto-Thatcherite, but also cognisant of equality of opportunity for all.

    I suspect none of that is an accident.
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    This bit on the failure of the markets could have been written by ed miliband.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    IanB2 said:

    Sheer brilliance from May - casting today's Labour as the nasty party

    Impressed at yours, and Alastair's, eye for spotting the good lines here.

    Labour might as well split now - everyone thinks they are already......
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and I suspect that is no accident.

    Midlands marginals, here we come.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?

    Garden bridge too, hopefully :)
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713

    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/lower middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and is proto-Thatcherite, but also cognisant of equality of opportunity for all.

    I suspect none of that is an accident.

    Indeed. This is utterly parking tanks all over labours future path to power.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    FF43 said:

    Ruth Davidson:

    Conference, that internationalism abroad must find its echo at home.

    We must not forget our own party’s history and values.

    I once listened to Sir John Major tell of his childhood in Brixton – then an area where many new arrivals to Britain set up their first home.

    And he talked of his Conservative values and those of his neighbours – and said there is nothing as Conservative as pulling your loved ones close and striking out to build a better future for your family.

    So as we have difficult – but necessary – debates on how we manage borders in future, let us not forget that behind discussions of numbers and rules and criteria, there lies people and homes and families.

    And for those who have already chosen to build a life, open a business, make a contribution, I say this is your home, and you are welcome here.

    The Conservative party I know is optimistic in spirit and internationalist in outlook – we are an outward looking people, and so we must remain.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/full-text-ruth-davidsons-conservative-party-conference-speech/

    I fear Ruth Davidson went off message there. Some autonomy in the colonies, I guess. Kudos, nevertheless to Ms Davidson, who is the classy one at this conference.
    I doubt it - these speeches are carefully coordinated - lets see what May says....
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    PlatoSaid said:

    #National, USC Dornsife/LA Times Poll (9/28-10/4):

    Trump 47 (+4)
    Clinton 43

    https://t.co/EP60vV6t2e

    Who bothers - it has been so far out of kilter with the other polls. (Other than CVoter).
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534
    What I finding funny about these conferences is how it's always the young activists and researchers, and the retired in attendance. The rest being party hacks, journalists and lobbyists.

    Everyone else is too busy working.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sheer brilliance from May - casting today's Labour as the nasty party

    Impressed at yours, and Alastair's, eye for spotting the good lines here.

    Labour might as well split now - everyone thinks they are already......
    But - as someone who has sat through many such speeches live 'in the hall' - this is the sort of speech that would have me walking from the hall thinking I had heard a great wide-ranging political speech, until someone asked me what it all meant. Sitting at home listening on my PC, I can see that in nearly an hour she has literally proposed absolutely nothing.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Mortimer said:

    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?

    Garden bridge too, hopefully :)
    A shit proposal that is just a waste of money. Hopefully it won't proceed!
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/lower middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and is proto-Thatcherite, but also cognisant of equality of opportunity for all.

    I suspect none of that is an accident.

    I think this is very blue collar pitch - and its pretty good.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    Everyone else is too busy working.

    Or pissing about on PB.
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    Carole Walker ‏@carolewalkercw 1m1 minute ago
    PM promise to enhance workers rights heard in silence
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    As a classic working class One Nation Tory, believing in free markets and liberalism balanced with social conscience, this is thrilling stuff from the PM. She comes across very well and her message will resonate far better with floating voters (and committed Labour voters) more than Cameron or Osborne ever could.

    However, I feel delivery is going to prove tricky and she is setting herself an incredibly high bar here across the piece, not just on Brexit!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    A very welcome recognition that QE is like chemotherapy that isn't working (paraphrasing only slightly)
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176

    Carole Walker ‏@carolewalkercw 1m1 minute ago
    PM promise to enhance workers rights heard in silence

    Well, I heard some applause. Not much, but it was there.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited October 2016
    Oof

    May attack on Labour over NHS sacred cow
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    IanB2 said:

    A very welcome recognition that QE is like chemotherapy that isn't working (paraphrasing only slightly)

    Massive implied criticism of Carney. Are his days numbered?
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    Carole Walker ‏@carolewalkercw 1m1 minute ago
    PM promise to enhance workers rights heard in silence

    The minions look very worried, especially all this talk of change.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    IanB2 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?

    Garden bridge too, hopefully :)
    A shit proposal that is just a waste of money. Hopefully it won't proceed!
    I'm not really that bothered either way about it - but JJ isn't, shall we say, its biggest fan....
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2016
    May's speech...not so much tanks on the labour lawn, more Putin invasion of Ukraine!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534

    As a classic working class One Nation Tory, believing in free markets and liberalism balanced with social conscience, this is thrilling stuff from the PM. She comes across very well and her message will resonate far better with floating voters (and committed Labour voters) more than Cameron or Osborne ever could.

    However, I feel delivery is going to prove tricky and she is setting herself an incredibly high bar here across the piece, not just on Brexit!

    I think her strategic positioning here, politically, is pretty much bang on in terms of maximising Conservative electoral success.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?

    I'm starting to think the government are going to poison the well for Gatwick by allowing both projects to go ahead and let them raise their own money. There has been a lot chatter coming from Gatwick about this result and they are very worried. There is no way Gatwick will be able to raise enough money if Heathrow is also dipping into the same well.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    On reflection, I suspect Cameron has said much of this before in his speeches over the years....
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    She's not as polished as Cameron, but she does come across as believing in what she preaches and that can be powerful.

    Shifting the nasty party tag to Labour could be extremely powerful if it sticks. Labour and the way it's run could easily make it stick, they aren't helping themselves right now.

    It's another centre ground grab and why shouldn't she, the Conservative party is occupying the centre ground and has an opportunity to gain all of it as Labour continues to shift further to the left and the Lib Dems continue to struggle. She is continuing Cameron's one nation tory vision but she has a few different ideas on how to go about it.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408

    As a classic working class One Nation Tory, believing in free markets and liberalism balanced with social conscience, this is thrilling stuff from the PM. She comes across very well and her message will resonate far better with floating voters (and committed Labour voters) more than Cameron or Osborne ever could.

    However, I feel delivery is going to prove tricky and she is setting herself an incredibly high bar here across the piece, not just on Brexit!

    I think her strategic positioning here, politically, is pretty much bang on in terms of maximising Conservative electoral success.
    It is but, apart from 'HS2 is Go', she has much work to do to make all of this come about....
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    James Forsyth ‏@JGForsyth 2m2 minutes ago
    This is the problem for Labour, even if they make it back to the common ground of UK politics, they'll find the Tories are dug in there
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/lower middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and is proto-Thatcherite, but also cognisant of equality of opportunity for all.

    I suspect none of that is an accident.

    She has recognised in the way that Cameron completely failed to that the Guardian readers are never going to vote for her, and she is better spending her time trying to pull in the Blue Tory vote.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534
    Mortimer said:

    I expect May sees herself as very centrist, but calculates the Conservaties weren't in the sweet spot of that centre, particularly outside London. So she is tacking economic policy slightly to the Left, whilst ultimately recognising the need for fiscal conservatism, and tacking slightly to the Right socially.

    The rhetoric is aimed squarely at working/middle-class voters, rather than urbane middle-class journalists, and I suspect that is no accident.

    Midlands marginals, here we come.
    I could see seats as far down the target list as Bristol East, Newport West, Southampton Test and Bolton North East falling with an approach like this.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052

    As a classic working class One Nation Tory, believing in free markets and liberalism balanced with social conscience, this is thrilling stuff from the PM. She comes across very well and her message will resonate far better with floating voters (and committed Labour voters) more than Cameron or Osborne ever could.

    However, I feel delivery is going to prove tricky and she is setting herself an incredibly high bar here across the piece, not just on Brexit!

    Camborne modelled themselves on The Master Tony Blair and failed to understand the fundamental significance of 2008. Being tough on the deficit was never going to be enough. And the anti-elite thing set in well before then.
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    On reflection, I suspect Cameron has said much of this before in his speeches over the years....

    Of course he has, although she's moving rather to the left of the Osborne/Cameron position.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    On reflection, I suspect Cameron has said much of this before in his speeches over the years....

    Of course he did. Just look at the headlines after his speech last year. The difficulty is in delivery. Still, now the Tories have decided the deficit is no longer important, I guess all things are possible.
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    theakestheakes Posts: 842
    LA poll, out of kilter! Yes. It is not a poll in the strictest sense of the word, but a Tracking Group the same people who are regularly asked. It omits 10% of no view.
    Regarding the headlines this morning, I guess that will mean the 2 million or so previous Lib Dem voters who voted Conservative in 2015 to keep out Labout and the SNP, will now have gone back to the Lib Dems, this is what is probably showing in the local by elections.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. B2, if that's an accurate representation of what she said (I'm not watching it myself) then she may have well said Carney (and the other person whose name I forgot who said more QE and low rates will be here for years) should pack their bags and sod off.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    Ed Miliband asked to lead a commision on inequality. Come on Theresa you know it makes sense.
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    What was the nasty party line?

    Someone rang me and stopped my live feed.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Basically this is brilliant waffle.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534

    On reflection, I suspect Cameron has said much of this before in his speeches over the years....

    Of course he has, although she's moving rather to the left of the Osborne/Cameron position.
    I think she's trying to grab the perception that the Tories are the party of the rich bull by the horns.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408

    Mr. B2, if that's an accurate representation of what she said (I'm not watching it myself) then she may have well said Carney (and the other person whose name I forgot who said more QE and low rates will be here for years) should pack their bags and sod off.

    As a follower of politics I think this is the first time I have ever heard a politician refer to QE at all. And she basically said it is responsible for many of the problems we face today. Kudos to her.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,779
    edited October 2016

    FF43 said:

    Ruth Davidson:

    Conference, that internationalism abroad must find its echo at home.

    We must not forget our own party’s history and values.

    I once listened to Sir John Major tell of his childhood in Brixton – then an area where many new arrivals to Britain set up their first home.

    And he talked of his Conservative values and those of his neighbours – and said there is nothing as Conservative as pulling your loved ones close and striking out to build a better future for your family.

    So as we have difficult – but necessary – debates on how we manage borders in future, let us not forget that behind discussions of numbers and rules and criteria, there lies people and homes and families.

    And for those who have already chosen to build a life, open a business, make a contribution, I say this is your home, and you are welcome here.

    The Conservative party I know is optimistic in spirit and internationalist in outlook – we are an outward looking people, and so we must remain.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/full-text-ruth-davidsons-conservative-party-conference-speech/

    I fear Ruth Davidson went off message there. Some autonomy in the colonies, I guess. Kudos, nevertheless to Ms Davidson, who is the classy one at this conference.
    I doubt it - these speeches are carefully coordinated - lets see what May says....
    May said many times she wants Britain to TRADE globally, choosing her words carefully as far as I can tell. I don't think she ever mentioned anything about PEOPLE in the way Ruth Davidson did above*

    * - Except for one disparaging point about international people not belonging anywhere.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    Alas, she is totally wrong on grammar schools. In terms of the message it sends, it's like Cam/Osb's errors on cutting the 50p rate and IHT.

    A rare bum note.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,534
    MaxPB said:

    Woohoo! HS2 going ahead.

    And a decision soon on airport capacity. Interesting she avoided saying 'Heathrow' ?

    I'm starting to think the government are going to poison the well for Gatwick by allowing both projects to go ahead and let them raise their own money. There has been a lot chatter coming from Gatwick about this result and they are very worried. There is no way Gatwick will be able to raise enough money if Heathrow is also dipping into the same well.
    I have a feeling the Government may authorise both but subsidise the other, which would obviously be Gatwick.

    And both need to be done IMHO if we're serious about becoming a global trading hub.
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    IanB2 said:

    Basically this is brilliant waffle.

    It is a very high bar but does anyone think that this is just words - this speech is her vision and she will not accept anything less.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052

    What was the nasty party line?

    Someone rang me and stopped my live feed.

    Conference you may remember that many years I said to you that many people thought we were thenasty party. Now I can inform you, we truly ARE the nasty party.

    Just joking of course. I'm only really following headlines but some of the immigration stuff doesn't seem entirely tactful.
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    I think she's trying to grab the perception that the Tories are the party of the rich bull by the horns.

    Yes. It's rather distasteful in the sense that she's exploiting the class resentment against Cameron to define herself differently, but, hey, politics is a rough game, and he's history now. Ruthlessness is a good trait in a leader, of course.
This discussion has been closed.