You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
Now you know how us 20 year veterans of the Labour Party feel after 12 months of His benevolence. "You're not a real socialist. You voted for Tony Blair. You're a TORY!!!"
You fancy the LibDems? You join the Orange Book end, I'll join the Kennedy end, meet in the middle for an non-alcoholic cocktail*
*Note to Momentum Inquisitors. I am not and never have been a LibDem. This is satire. Yes, like Jeremy's "there were no seats" defence.
That's not a good policy at all. My office is fairly international and benefits from that, we have loads of Americans, a few Australians and a fair number of Europeans. I don't think the company should be ashamed of bringing in global talent to the UK.
"The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do."
Hmmm
Sure, but forcing companies to declare their proportion of foreign workers is a (few) step too far. Actively discouraging companies from widening their talent search globally is a poor idea IMO, especially when it is clear that some industries have benefited from foreign management and investment (the much discussed auto industry for one).
I couldn't agree more. (The high street coffee industry is another)
Re: Amber Rudd and "British Jobs for British Workers," I have found a transcript online of her full speech to conference. I didn't see the speech, so if there are any sentences missing then I am obviously happy for others to correct.
This is the relevant passage:
"So, I can announce today, we will shortly be consulting on the next steps needed to control immigration.
We will be looking across work and study routes.
This will include examining whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before recruiting from abroad.
British businesses have driven the economic recovery in this country, with employment at record levels.
However we still need to do more ... so all British people get the opportunities they need to get on in life.
The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do.
But it's become a tick box exercise, allowing some firms to get away with not training local people. We won't win in the world if we don't do more to upskill our own workforce.
It's not fair on companies doing the right thing. So I want us to look again at whether our immigration system provides the right incentives for businesses to invest in British workers."
And that was all that was said about the hiring practices of companies. She then went on to talk about those coming to the country to study.
This doesn't seem, to me, to be terribly controversial. There's a perfectly legitimate argument to be had about how much of the fault for the skills gap lies with the state education system and how much with employers who find it easier (and cheaper) to hire ready-to-work staff from abroad, rather than investing in training those at home. However, Amber Rudd's language doesn't quite tally with the explosive headlines on the front of the "I" newspaper, which makes it sound as if businesses are going to be forced to take on unsuitable staff from the UK at any price.
"i" is the offspring of the Independent, a left-liberal, pro-EU publication. We ought, perhaps, to remember that it's not just nasty right-wing newspapers that have axes to grind.
Apart from anything else this 'British workers' policy is also the kind of regulatory and bureaucratic overhead that the Brexiteers told us was uniquely the product of Brussels. It turns out that they are more than capable of creating enough useless red tape to strangle a herd of elephants.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
Re: Amber Rudd and "British Jobs for British Workers," I have found a transcript online of her full speech to conference. I didn't see the speech, so if there are any sentences missing then I am obviously happy for others to correct.
This is the relevant passage:
"So, I can announce today, we will shortly be consulting on the next steps needed to control immigration.
We will be looking across work and study routes.
This will include examining whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before recruiting from abroad.
British businesses have driven the economic recovery in this country, with employment at record levels.
However we still need to do more ... so all British people get the opportunities they need to get on in life.
The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do.
But it's become a tick box exercise, allowing some firms to get away with not training local people. We won't win in the world if we don't do more to upskill our own workforce.
It's not fair on companies doing the right thing. So I want us to look again at whether our immigration system provides the right incentives for businesses to invest in British workers."
And that was all that was said about the hiring practices of companies. She then went on to talk about those coming to the country to study.
This doesn't seem, to me, to be terribly controversial. There's a perfectly legitimate argument to be had about how much of the fault for the skills gap lies with the state education system and how much with employers who find it easier (and cheaper) to hire ready-to-work staff from abroad, rather than investing in training those at home. However, Amber Rudd's language doesn't quite tally with the explosive headlines on the front of the "I" newspaper, which makes it sound as if businesses are going to be forced to take on unsuitable staff from the UK at any price.
"i" is the offspring of the Independent, a left-liberal, pro-EU publication. We ought, perhaps, to remember that it's not just nasty right-wing newspapers that have axes to grind.
OK that doesn't sound as bad as the headline made out....
In the future some poor sod is going to have to study this period of time for a history exam and then try to give some sort of a sensible answer on an exam paper....l
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
IMHO it would be best if they brought in a £10k a year work permit for non Brits. Then we would see a shift to hiring Brits in the unskilled jobs.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are a Tory, and very welcome, but the political landscape is changing.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
Then reduce immigration, don't publicly discourage hiring of foreign workers. That feels instinctively wrong.
Re: Amber Rudd and "British Jobs for British Workers," I have found a transcript online of her full speech to conference. I didn't see the speech, so if there are any sentences missing then I am obviously happy for others to correct.
This is the relevant passage:
"So, I can announce today, we will shortly be consulting on the next steps needed to control immigration.
We will be looking across work and study routes.
This will include examining whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before recruiting from abroad.
British businesses have driven the economic recovery in this country, with employment at record levels.
However we still need to do more ... so all British people get the opportunities they need to get on in life.
The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do.
But it's become a tick box exercise, allowing some firms to get away with not training local people. We won't win in the world if we don't do more to upskill our own workforce.
It's not fair on companies doing the right thing. So I want us to look again at whether our immigration system provides the right incentives for businesses to invest in British workers."
And that was all that was said about the hiring practices of companies. She then went on to talk about those coming to the country to study.
This doesn't seem, to me, to be terribly controversial. There's a perfectly legitimate argument to be had about how much of the fault for the skills gap lies with the state education system and how much with employers who find it easier (and cheaper) to hire ready-to-work staff from abroad, rather than investing in training those at home. However, Amber Rudd's language doesn't quite tally with the explosive headlines on the front of the "I" newspaper, which makes it sound as if businesses are going to be forced to take on unsuitable staff from the UK at any price.
"i" is the offspring of the Independent, a left-liberal, pro-EU publication. We ought, perhaps, to remember that it's not just nasty right-wing newspapers that have axes to grind.
OK that doesn't sound as bad as the headline made out....
The Independent ran a story the other day on its front page about Tory plotting at the Conference and an 80 strong meeting of Remainers. The actual detail was that it had one tory MP speaking and one other in the sudience. Niether of whom are household names. This BJ4BW is a piece of spin designed to attract gullible leftie metrosexuals.
In the future some poor sod is going to have to study this period of time for a history exam and then try to give some sort of a sensible answer on an exam paper....l
In this case we will let the little darlings off being allowed a crib book.
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
Then reduce immigration, don't publicly discourage hiring of foreign workers. That feels instinctively wrong.
The disincentive should be in the form of quotas for specific visas.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
Now you know how us 20 year veterans of the Labour Party feel after 12 months of His benevolence. "You're not a real socialist. You voted for Tony Blair. You're a TORY!!!"
You fancy the LibDems? You join the Orange Book end, I'll join the Kennedy end, meet in the middle for an non-alcoholic cocktail*
*Note to Momentum Inquisitors. I am not and never have been a LibDem. This is satire. Yes, like Jeremy's "there were no seats" defence.
@MrHarryCole: Diane James: "It is with great regret that I announce that I will not be formalising my recent nomination to become the new leader."
Sounds like Nige is still in post...
Anyone got the rules fag packet from the UKIP "The Constitution" pub? James wasn't elected leader she was "nominated". Does that mean Farage didn't resign he handed in his notice? Who is in charge?
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
Oh come on OGH, you ran as a LD in the 1992 GE, your entire political career was with the LD.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
Oh come on OGH, you ran as a LD in the 1992 GE, your entire political career was with the LD.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
It is not 'garbage', a majority of Tory voters polled want more grammar schools, voted Leave and prioritise controlling migration over access to the single market. A majority of LD voters do not want new grammars, voted Remain and prioritise access to the single market over controlling immigration. It is surely sensible for TSE to ask himself with which party's voters he now identifies more?
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
A similar if opposite line of questioning as being put to Labour MPs by their friends in momentum. It doesn't seem as if either big party welcomes moderates, any more?
BBC currently interviewing British Nobel prize winner at Princeton University. If it was a US physicist working in a British university most of the modern Tory party would be shouting shame and telling him to bugger off back home.
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
Then reduce immigration, don't publicly discourage hiring of foreign workers. That feels instinctively wrong.
The disincentive should be in the form of quotas for specific visas.
That's too cumbersome, have minimum earning levels for different visas.
Tier 1 long term, £40k plus £3k per dependent Tier 2 six months, £20k pro-rata, no dependent rights, can concert to Tier 1 if a highly paid job is found within the six months. Can be applied for while in the UK on holiday. Tier 3 seasonal, minimum wage, no dependent rights.
Re: Amber Rudd and "British Jobs for British Workers," I have found a transcript online of her full speech to conference. I didn't see the speech, so if there are any sentences missing then I am obviously happy for others to correct.
This is the relevant passage:
"So, I can announce today, we will shortly be consulting on the next steps needed to control immigration.
We will be looking across work and study routes.
This will include examining whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before recruiting from abroad.
British businesses have driven the economic recovery in this country, with employment at record levels.
However we still need to do more ... so all British people get the opportunities they need to get on in life.
The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do.
But it's become a tick box exercise, allowing some firms to get away with not training local people. We won't win in the world if we don't do more to upskill our own workforce.
It's not fair on companies doing the right thing. So I want us to look again at whether our immigration system provides the right incentives for businesses to invest in British workers."
And that was all that was said about the hiring practices of companies. She then went on to talk about those coming to the country to study.
This doesn't seem, to me, to be terribly controversial. There's a perfectly legitimate argument to be had about how much of the fault for the skills gap lies with the state education system and how much with employers who find it easier (and cheaper) to hire ready-to-work staff from abroad, rather than investing in training those at home. However, Amber Rudd's language doesn't quite tally with the explosive headlines on the front of the "I" newspaper, which makes it sound as if businesses are going to be forced to take on unsuitable staff from the UK at any price.
"i" is the offspring of the Independent, a left-liberal, pro-EU publication. We ought, perhaps, to remember that it's not just nasty right-wing newspapers that have axes to grind.
OK that doesn't sound as bad as the headline made out....
I think it bears little resemblance to the I's reporting of it.
@MrHarryCole: Diane James: "It is with great regret that I announce that I will not be formalising my recent nomination to become the new leader."
Sounds like Nige is still in post...
Anyone got the rules fag packet from the UKIP "The Constitution" pub? James wasn't elected leader she was "nominated". Does that mean Farage didn't resign he handed in his notice? Who is in charge?
BBC currently interviewing British Nobel prize winner at Princeton University. If it was a US physicist working in a British university most of the modern Tory party would be shouting shame and telling him to bugger off back home.
After a literally 18 day dance by Dianne James who'm I always thought was a bit of a jellyfish. The only possible New Leader that would make UKIP pull itself together and make some advance is Steven Woolf.
Nigel Farage failed get rid of seat stuck rats of the NEC, and I believe Woolf is the only man who can clean those Augean Stables.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
Oh come on OGH, you ran as a LD in the 1992 GE, your entire political career was with the LD.
You can't claim to be a "true" Tory.
are you drunk?
The most simplest of things, you can go to wikipedia and see for yourself:
"Michael 'Mike' Smithson (born 11 May 1946) is a writer, a former Liberal Democrat politician and expert on betting on politics who in 2004 founded the website politicalbetting.com. "
So of course OGH would be anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration, because he is a Liberal Democrat not a Tory.
One of the reasons I'm a Tory is that we've always been an internationalist party, a party of free trade, and look at what we've become today.
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
Forcing companies to declare how many foreign workers they have isn't a good policy though.
I think the intent is to encourage companies to train and hire domestic British workers rather than take the easy option of hiring skilled workers from overseas.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
Then reduce immigration, don't publicly discourage hiring of foreign workers. That feels instinctively wrong.
A better way to do it might be to encourage companies to publish details of the initiatives they are taking to identity and train up British workers, or sponsor such schemes, with success rates.
We tacitly already do this with some apprenticeship schemes but there is so much more that could be done.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
A similar if opposite line of questioning as being put to Labour MPs by their friends in momentum. It doesn't seem as if either big party welcomes moderates, any more?
At the moment the Blairites and Cameroons have more in common with each other and the LDs than they do with the membership of their own parties
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
Oh come on OGH, you ran as a LD in the 1992 GE, your entire political career was with the LD.
You can't claim to be a "true" Tory.
are you drunk?
The most simplest of things, you can go to wikipedia and see for yourself:
"Michael 'Mike' Smithson (born 11 May 1946) is a writer, a former Liberal Democrat politician and expert on betting on politics who in 2004 founded the website politicalbetting.com. "
So of course OGH would be anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration, because he is a Liberal Democrat not a Tory.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
What a load of garbage to judge "true" Tories on those measures.
Oh come on OGH, you ran as a LD in the 1992 GE, your entire political career was with the LD.
You can't claim to be a "true" Tory.
are you drunk?
The most simplest of things, you can go to wikipedia and see for yourself:
"Michael 'Mike' Smithson (born 11 May 1946) is a writer, a former Liberal Democrat politician and expert on betting on politics who in 2004 founded the website politicalbetting.com. "
So of course OGH would be anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration, because he is a Liberal Democrat not a Tory.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
This is uncharitable. Proper parties of Government (especially under our electoral system) are broad churches, and there was a principled centre-right case for Remain, for those who do not take an especially dim view of the broad pooling of sovereignty (of whom there are plenty.) And this is probably a very healthy thing, too. We none of us have a monopoly on wisdom, and it's helpful to have as wide a variety of opinion within a political party, or any other organisation, as is consistent with its broad philosophical outlook. In the case of the Tories, this ought presumably to be democratic, pro-market, pro-Union, in favour of tradition wherever it does no harm (and thus against change for its own sake,) in favour of as great a degree of freedom of choice for the individual as possible within the framework of a functioning society, and against sumptuary taxation and a Leviathan state.
Within that broad family, one would have thought that the pale blue centre-right have just as much claim on the party, and to respect within it, as do the hard-right Brexiteers? To be fair, from what little one can glean looking from the outside in, this does appear to be the attitude within the Conservative Party itself. Insofar as I am aware there is no Tory equivalent of Momentum demanding that Ken Clarke's head be put on a spike.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
This is uncharitable. Proper parties of Government (especially under our electoral system) are broad churches, and there was a principled centre-right case for Remain, for those who do not take an especially dim view of the broad pooling of sovereignty (of whom there are plenty.) And this is probably a very healthy thing, too. We none of us have a monopoly on wisdom, and it's helpful to have as wide a variety of opinion within a political party, or any other organisation, as is consistent with its broad philosophical outlook. In the case of the Tories, this ought presumably to be democratic, pro-market, pro-Union, in favour of tradition wherever it does no harm (and thus against change for its own sake,) in favour of as great a degree of freedom of choice for the individual as possible within the framework of a functioning society, and against sumptuary taxation and a Leviathan state.
Within that broad family, one would have thought that the pale blue centre-right have just as much claim on the party, and to respect within it, as do the hard-right Brexiteers? To be fair, from what little one can glean looking from the outside in, this does appear to be the attitude within the Conservative Party itself. Insofar as I am aware there is no Tory equivalent of Momentum demanding that Ken Clarke's head be put on a spike.
Maybe but most senior Tory Remainers now like Damian Green are also pro grammar school. The LDs are also democratic, pro-market and pro-Union and generally pro freedom of choice. The Orange Book LDs are also against sumptuary taxation and a Leviathan state. If UKIP imploded and its activists shifted to the Tories there may well be more vociferous attempts to take on the Europhile Tory left
Free trade is right at the heart of the Conservative vision for a future global Britain.
How can anyone tell what the Conservative vision of the future is now, beyond a few tautological platitudes?
At the moment, "Conservative vision" appears to consist of turning a blind eye to the future, because anything more definite than platitudes will seriously divide the party.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
This is uncharitable. Proper parties of Government (especially under our electoral system) are broad churches, and there was a principled centre-right case for Remain, for those who do not take an especially dim view of the broad pooling of sovereignty (of whom there are plenty.) And this is probably a very healthy thing, too. We none of us have a monopoly on wisdom, and it's helpful to have as wide a variety of opinion within a political party, or any other organisation, as is consistent with its broad philosophical outlook. In the case of the Tories, this ought presumably to be democratic, pro-market, pro-Union, in favour of tradition wherever it does no harm (and thus against change for its own sake,) in favour of as great a degree of freedom of choice for the individual as possible within the framework of a functioning society, and against sumptuary taxation and a Leviathan state.
Within that broad family, one would have thought that the pale blue centre-right have just as much claim on the party, and to respect within it, as do the hard-right Brexiteers? To be fair, from what little one can glean looking from the outside in, this does appear to be the attitude within the Conservative Party itself. Insofar as I am aware there is no Tory equivalent of Momentum demanding that Ken Clarke's head be put on a spike.
Excellent post, especially the bit about none of us having a monopoly on wisdom. If I were a Tory party member, I'd be pleased to have TSE in the same party as me, even though I'm much keenr on Brexit and grammar schools and less keen on immigration than him. There is far more to parties and party members than uniformity of opinion.
You can always join the Labour party and sing the Internationale with Corbyn.
I had him as more a Lib Dem to be honest.
TSE has never really been a Tory, he is actually a classically liberal, Orange Book LD
I've been a Tory member since 1997 (when I was 18 years old), I've helped elect several Tory MPs and councillors, and yet people keep on telling me I'm not a Tory.
You are anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration. Ask yourself do you have more in common with Nick Clegg and Tim Farron or Theresa May? The answer is probably the former
This is uncharitable. Proper parties of Government (especially under our electoral system) are broad churches, and there was a principled centre-right case for Remain, for those who do not take an especially dim view of the broad pooling of sovereignty (of whom there are plenty.) And this is probably a very healthy thing, too. We none of us have a monopoly on wisdom, and it's helpful to have as wide a variety of opinion within a political party, or any other organisation, as is consistent with its broad philosophical outlook. In the case of the Tories, this ought presumably to be democratic, pro-market, pro-Union, in favour of tradition wherever it does no harm (and thus against change for its own sake,) in favour of as great a degree of freedom of choice for the individual as possible within the framework of a functioning society, and against sumptuary taxation and a Leviathan state.
Within that broad family, one would have thought that the pale blue centre-right have just as much claim on the party, and to respect within it, as do the hard-right Brexiteers? To be fair, from what little one can glean looking from the outside in, this does appear to be the attitude within the Conservative Party itself. Insofar as I am aware there is no Tory equivalent of Momentum demanding that Ken Clarke's head be put on a spike.
Excellent post, especially the bit about none of us having a monopoly on wisdom. If I were a Tory party member, I'd be pleased to have TSE in the same party as me, even though I'm much keenr on Brexit and grammar schools and less keen on immigration than him. There is far more to parties and party members than uniformity of opinion.
What is the point though for TSE in campaigning for a party with a platform he does not now believe in when he could be campaigning for a party with a platform he largely does believe in?
I think Diane is defecting to the Tories and will be in Birmingham for Mrs May's speech tomorrow.
If true it will bring about an abrupt end to Theresa May's honeymoon.
My prediction that Brexit means Corbyn could win a GE will start to look more likely.
I don't think liberal Coservatives/orange book liberals/Cameroons will suddenly decide that Corbyn is great.
No but there is a chance of May attracting centre-left types who will not want to vote Corbyn. If she goes too far to the right, demonstrated to the public by attracting kippers back to the party, they may decide to just stick with Corbyn. A blairite former labour friend of mine for example, is currently saying he would vote for May in the next election, but I don't see that holding if she moves too rightwards.
I think Diane is defecting to the Tories and will be in Birmingham for Mrs May's speech tomorrow.
If true it will bring about an abrupt end to Theresa May's honeymoon.
My prediction that Brexit means Corbyn could win a GE will start to look more likely.
I don't think liberal Coservatives/orange book liberals/Cameroons will suddenly decide that Corbyn is great.
No but there is a chance of May attracting centre-left types who will not want to vote Corbyn. If she goes too far to the right, demonstrated to the public by attracting kippers back to the party, they may decide to just stick with Corbyn. A blairite former labour friend of mine for example, is currently saying he would vote for May in the next election, but I don't see that holding if she moves too rightwards.
Comments
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-home-secretary-amber-rudds-8972936
You fancy the LibDems? You join the Orange Book end, I'll join the Kennedy end, meet in the middle for an non-alcoholic cocktail*
*Note to Momentum Inquisitors. I am not and never have been a LibDem. This is satire. Yes, like Jeremy's "there were no seats" defence.
This is the relevant passage:
"So, I can announce today, we will shortly be consulting on the next steps needed to control immigration.
We will be looking across work and study routes.
This will include examining whether we should tighten the test companies have to take before recruiting from abroad.
British businesses have driven the economic recovery in this country, with employment at record levels.
However we still need to do more ... so all British people get the opportunities they need to get on in life.
The test should ensure people coming here are filling gaps in the labour market, not taking jobs British people could do.
But it's become a tick box exercise, allowing some firms to get away with not training local people. We won't win in the world if we don't do more to upskill our own workforce.
It's not fair on companies doing the right thing. So I want us to look again at whether our immigration system provides the right incentives for businesses to invest in British workers."
And that was all that was said about the hiring practices of companies. She then went on to talk about those coming to the country to study.
This doesn't seem, to me, to be terribly controversial. There's a perfectly legitimate argument to be had about how much of the fault for the skills gap lies with the state education system and how much with employers who find it easier (and cheaper) to hire ready-to-work staff from abroad, rather than investing in training those at home. However, Amber Rudd's language doesn't quite tally with the explosive headlines on the front of the "I" newspaper, which makes it sound as if businesses are going to be forced to take on unsuitable staff from the UK at any price.
"i" is the offspring of the Independent, a left-liberal, pro-EU publication. We ought, perhaps, to remember that it's not just nasty right-wing newspapers that have axes to grind.
This will need to happen anyway if immigration is substantially cut.
In the future some poor sod is going to have to study this period of time for a history exam and then try to give some sort of a sensible answer on an exam paper....l
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct9AyObXEAAysXH.jpg
Sounds like Nige is still in post...
Being spat at on a train to Cardiff.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/783416121793843201
And yes it appears that Farage is still UKIP leader since James never had the time to formally take over.
You can't claim to be a "true" Tory.
But he has been moving to the Left for a while since he married a socialist, became a teacher and joined a union.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Tier 1 long term, £40k plus £3k per dependent
Tier 2 six months, £20k pro-rata, no dependent rights, can concert to Tier 1 if a highly paid job is found within the six months. Can be applied for while in the UK on holiday.
Tier 3 seasonal, minimum wage, no dependent rights.
No visa or work permit comes with welfare rights.
https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/783415145032589312
Nigel Farage failed get rid of seat stuck rats of the NEC, and I believe Woolf is the only man who can clean those Augean Stables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Smithson_(politics)
"Michael 'Mike' Smithson (born 11 May 1946) is a writer, a former Liberal Democrat politician and expert on betting on politics who in 2004 founded the website politicalbetting.com. "
So of course OGH would be anti grammar school, pro EU, and pro immigration, because he is a Liberal Democrat not a Tory.
We tacitly already do this with some apprenticeship schemes but there is so much more that could be done.
Within that broad family, one would have thought that the pale blue centre-right have just as much claim on the party, and to respect within it, as do the hard-right Brexiteers? To be fair, from what little one can glean looking from the outside in, this does appear to be the attitude within the Conservative Party itself. Insofar as I am aware there is no Tory equivalent of Momentum demanding that Ken Clarke's head be put on a spike.
At the moment, "Conservative vision" appears to consist of turning a blind eye to the future, because anything more definite than platitudes will seriously divide the party.