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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today we should have been getting the new Prime Minister

SystemSystem Posts: 11,712
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today we should have been getting the new Prime Minister

The picture above sums up the last few months in British politics, the reaction live on television of Sam Coates, Deputy Political Editor of The Times, to Boris Johnson withdrawing from the Tory leadership race.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Andrea first.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    Andrea first.

    When will I learn, PBers are always lying in wait for the glorious first...
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    RobD said:

    Andrea first.

    When will I learn, PBers are always lying in wait for the glorious first...
    Coming first is always going to be tough Rob, as you and I both know - otherwise it wouldn't be worth getting up at all hours of the night in the quest for the big prize.
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    Every Conservative Prime Minister since 1979 has seen their premiership either ended or be destroyed by European Union matters, Theresa May needs to work hard to make sure she doesn’t experience the same destiny, obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.
    This is another reason - apart from the sheer logistical practicalities of the thing - to think she won't Brexit before 2020.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    Andrea first.

    When will I learn, PBers are always lying in wait for the glorious first...
    Coming first is always going to be tough Rob, as you and I both know - otherwise it wouldn't be worth getting up at all hours of the night in the quest for the big prize.
    Peter, my arch nemesis!
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    Morning all.

    On the subject of leadership elections, I see last night's Corbyn/Smith rantathon went well...!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2016
    @edmundintokyo

    Which will come first - Brexit or TSE's AV thread?

    My money would go on Brexit, but I may well be in the old folks home by the time that settlement comes around.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Richard III is waaaay more famous than Henry IV

    Won't somebody pleeease think of the children?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!
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    Mortimer said:

    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!

    The next referendum might even have a better class of electorate. :)
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited September 2016
    Charles said:

    Richard III is waaaay more famous than Henry IV

    Won't somebody pleeease think of the children?

    On Jeremy Kyle this morning :

    Richard from York - "Why I smothered my orphaned nephews with love and nothing else" - we have lie detector and DNA tests.
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    Mortimer said:

    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!

    A grammar school for every child. Genius.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Mortimer said:

    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!

    The next referendum might even have a better class of electorate. :)
    Indeed. Fewer Remoaners because they've learned that 52 is more than 48?
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2016

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    If it doesn't go through it is likely that this policy, along with other popular policies that promote aspiration and resonate with the public will be in the next manifesto.

    100 majority.

    Con gain Bootle?
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    Terrific photo.
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    Mortimer said:

    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!

    Link?
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    if Theresa May had won the Tory leadership with the votes of 100,000 Tory members, it might help dispel the notion she lacks a mandate

    I doubt that. The opposition parties would continue to claim "no mandate" because that's what opposition parties always do in this situation.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2016

    Mortimer said:

    Wow. Just seen the Grammar details in the Telegraph.

    Proud doesn't even start to describe how I feel right now. Bloody thrilled!

    Link?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ :)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018


    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Of course, was anyone suggesting otherwise?
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    They'd have to be very brave to rebel, One Grammar School Per Child is going to be wildly popular with their local parties.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    if Theresa May had won the Tory leadership with the votes of 100,000 Tory members, it might help dispel the notion she lacks a mandate

    I doubt that. The opposition parties would continue to claim "no mandate" because that's what opposition parties always do in this situation.

    AI opposition mode would regularly cite:

    You have no mandate!
    Tory cuts/Labour waste!
    Judge led inquiry!
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
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    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Obtaining her own mandate might have to wait till 2020. If Article 50 isn't pressed for 18 months.. MP's will have lots of other things to concern themselves with, never mind a mandate..

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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I'm as sure as I can be that Theresa May will deliver on Brexit, and that her party will fall in behind her. The Leavers in Parliament (and the large majority of the rank and file party membership) would erupt in open revolt if she backtracked on this, and the Europhile rump knows that the game is already up for our EU membership and won't back the barking attempts of Farron and some Labour MPs to overturn the referendum result.

    I stand to be corrected, but I also do not see the Prime Minister calling an early election, by way of a plebiscite on the outcome of the EU negotiations. She has already seen what a vote on Europe did to her predecessor.

    At this stage, I see no particular reason to doubt that Mrs May can be taken at her word, and there will be no General Election until the scheduled date in 2020. Her majority, although slender, is not under immediate threat (and the Tories can always appeal to the DUP for help in an emergency.) It'll give Labour years longer in which to bury itself, with a Corbyn leadership victory and a devastating rout in next Spring's Scottish local elections likely to be merely the most imminent of its manifold problems. If she goes to the country early then she will look insincere and opportunistic, and thus ruin her reputation with the electorate as a calm and serious politician who does not play games. Waiting the full-term will allow boundary reform to be implemented, which in crude terms means that the Tories will enter the next election with a notional majority of around fifty seats, rather than a dozen, and force an epic bloodletting over selection upon the Labour Party.

    Moreover, barring economic catastrophe, it is hard to see how the Conservatives can possibly lose the next election. Notwithstanding the gains both from more moderate voters deserting Labour, and from the return of traditional Tory support from Ukip, where else apart from the Tories are all the people who voted for Cameron last year meant to go? The Lib Dems have been floating between about 7% and 10% for the whole of the last six years, and show no signs of recovery. Ukip is having its own identity crisis, has always demonstrated a low ceiling of support in general elections, and is likely to end up focusing most of its effort on capturing more white, lower income voters from Labour. Labour has lost all interest in electability and only appeals to what's left of its core vote.

    The Conservatives secured 37% of the vote last year, and their voter distribution was highly efficient. It was enough to win, and the same performance with the reformed boundaries in 2020 would be enough to win again, this time with a comfortable majority. The reality is that they are likely to reach 40% at least, and achieve a landslide. Theresa May's position is secure, and there is no particular reason to suppose that this will change if she avoids making obvious mistakes. An early election would, therefore, be unnecessary and arguably counterproductive.
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
  • Options

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    They'd have to be very brave to rebel, One Grammar School Per Child is going to be wildly popular with their local parties.
    I suspect 'Opposition to Grammar Schools' could only be trumped by 'Abolition of the Monarchy' in terms of 'death wish'....

    It would be a very 'brave' Conservative MP who opposed them, 'So you're against aspiration then? etc. etc"
  • Options

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.
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    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.

    Yeah, I am worried about the bit on faith schools.

    Trouble is that Christian based faith schools are popular, and one can't discriminate.
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    Matt's take on opposition to Grammar Schools:

    http://tinyurl.com/juc76t4
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    Although that's to do with the failings of other parts of the system rather than grammar schools per we.
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    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.

    Yeah, I am worried about the bit on faith schools.

    Trouble is that Christian based faith schools are popular, and one can't discriminate.
    Perhaps educational policy should be set on what is correct rather than what is popular? Though I accept that would be tricky to do in the same bill as one proposing to expand the number of grammar schools.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2016

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
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    Terrific photo.

    Who is the surprised looking guy in the background?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.

    Yeah, I am worried about the bit on faith schools.

    Trouble is that Christian based faith schools are popular, and one can't discriminate.
    Well yes, you can. Let's have a basic set of principals to which they need to subscribe and if they don't they can't open
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    They'd have to be very brave to rebel, One Grammar School Per Child is going to be wildly popular with their local parties.
    I suspect 'Opposition to Grammar Schools' could only be trumped by 'Abolition of the Monarchy' in terms of 'death wish'....

    It would be a very 'brave' Conservative MP who opposed them, 'So you're against aspiration then? etc. etc"
    "At every step in my political life - I've asked myself one question. What is the right thing to do? What does your heart tell you?" - Michael Gove
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    Terrific photo.

    Who is the surprised looking guy in the background?
    Sam Coates, I think.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,973

    Matt's take on opposition to Grammar Schools:

    http://tinyurl.com/juc76t4

    Matt is spot on as usual. How are a Labour front bench full of grammar school alumni supposed to oppose this policy with any credibility whatsoever?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.

    Yeah, I am worried about the bit on faith schools.

    Trouble is that Christian based faith schools are popular, and one can't discriminate.
    Perhaps educational policy should be set on what is correct rather than what is popular? Though I accept that would be tricky to do in the same bill as one proposing to expand the number of grammar schools.
    Allowing any school to apply to be a Grammar School will mean that all those good comprehensives in the posh parts of town will apply, while the sink schools sink further.

    If she really wanted to do something about social mobility she should allow only schools with a greater than average number on free meals to apply to be Grammar schools.

    Allowing 100% selection on religious grounds is a step in the wrong direction for social inclusion.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    Terrific photo.

    Who is the surprised looking guy in the background?
    It's stated directly below the photo ;)
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    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Not that rotten old canard again.

    4 Sinn Fein abstainers

    10 DUP & UUP MPs who are solidly in favour of Grammars

    Kate Hoey and a few other Labour MPs will I suspect vote in Favour.

    As with most issues, her real majority is bigger than Thatchers in 1979
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    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I'm a little surprised to see the Conservatives agreeing to the foundation of 100% Muslim-only madrasahs as state schools. No doubt this will play well with the tabloids.

    Yeah, I am worried about the bit on faith schools.

    Trouble is that Christian based faith schools are popular, and one can't discriminate.
    They are 'popular' amongst those that get I as they do stealth selection to try and take only the best and brightest.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    May = Chamberlain, MacMillan, Home, Callaghan, Brown. Some lack of mandates are more significant than others?
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    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
  • Options


    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    Italian elections in 2018 and EU elections in 2019, so those are out as well.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018


    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    Italian elections in 2018 and EU elections in 2019, so those are out as well.
    I don't think the Italian elections matter, or the EU ones for that matter since they only elect the MEPs.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.

    EU Parliament has to ratify any deal.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.

    EU Parliament has to ratify any deal.

    By clarified I mean whether or not the British MEPs get to vote on it.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
    I don't think there was ever any unclarity about this. The treaty says " after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament". Being a parliament they presumably consent or decline to consent by voting, rather than by a darts competition or whatever.
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    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?

    Kids from poorer backgrounds do worse in authorities with grammar systems than elsewhere. That's the problem that needs to be overcome. What's more the relatively low number of kids from poorer backgrounds that do make it to grammars perform worse than their classmates.

  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157
    edited September 2016
    RobD said:


    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    Italian elections in 2018 and EU elections in 2019, so those are out as well.
    I don't think the Italian elections matter, or the EU ones for that matter since they only elect the MEPs.
    MEPs have a veto on the whole thing, so they're more important to this process than any individual member state, which can be out-voted by QMV.

    Italy is a big, important country.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2016
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
    I don't think there was ever any unclarity about this. The treaty says " after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament". Being a parliament they presumably consent or decline to consent by voting, rather than by a darts competition or whatever.
    Ah sorry, I meant whether or not it'd be the full parliament, or just the 27 other states. If it is the latter, then re-electing our MEPs would be a bit silly.
  • Options
    dr_spyn said:

    May = Chamberlain, MacMillan, Home, Callaghan, Brown. Some lack of mandates are more significant than others?

    May is the first ever PM without a mandate to not have an opposition to worry about.

  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.

    EU Parliament has to ratify any deal.

    By clarified I mean whether or not the British MEPs get to vote on it.
    I don't think there's anything in the treaty to suggest they wouldn't.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Lol, Trump did a full sit down interview with Russia Today.

    Trump campaign is now claiming that they didn't know it would be for Russia Today
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:


    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    Italian elections in 2018 and EU elections in 2019, so those are out as well.
    I don't think the Italian elections matter, or the EU ones for that matter since they only elect the MEPs.
    MEPs have a veto on the whole thing, so they're more important to this process than any individual member state, which can be out-voted by QMV.

    Italy is a big, important country.
    Not in the same league as France/Germany though. And yes, but I don't think it would be a further reason to delay article 50 until then! I suspect they will tow the national line when it comes to it.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
    This is a proposal to let the producer select their customers, it prioritises the educational establishment over the consumer.
  • Options

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Presumably this is an English-only vote, so the Tory majority is higher.

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Headlines we have missed: 12th November 1918, The Prime Minister has no Mandate to seek an Armistice with Germany.

    October 1st 1938, The Right Hon Member has no Mandate to sign an agreement with The German Chancellor in Munich.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
    I don't think there was ever any unclarity about this. The treaty says " after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament". Being a parliament they presumably consent or decline to consent by voting, rather than by a darts competition or whatever.
    Thought "consent" referred to the negotiating position not the final deal?
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.

    No, it means schools get to choose who their customers are. It's 100% producer interest.

  • Options
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
    I don't think there was ever any unclarity about this. The treaty says " after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament". Being a parliament they presumably consent or decline to consent by voting, rather than by a darts competition or whatever.
    Thought "consent" referred to the negotiating position not the final deal?
    I can't see why you'd think that.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,088
    Another LD gain in the locals last night, I see. And the Labour vote, across the board, seemed to slip.
    I wasn’t NOT impressed with Owen Smith last night. Nore was my wife. And we’d wanted to be!
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2016

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Presumably this is an English-only vote, so the Tory majority is higher.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the SNP are tempted to interfere all the same.
  • Options
    dr_spyn said:

    Headlines we have missed: 12th November 1918, The Prime Minister has no Mandate to seek an Armistice with Germany.

    October 1st 1938, The Right Hon Member has no Mandate to sign an agreement with The German Chancellor in Munich.

    13 May 1940, the Prime Minister has no mandate to offer blood, toil, tears and sweat.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    AndyJS said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Presumably this is an English-only vote, so the Tory majority is higher.

    I bet the SNP are tempted to interfere all the same.
    Tempted? I think it's beyond doubt that they'd vote against the government on this.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.

    EU Parliament has to ratify any deal.

    By clarified I mean whether or not the British MEPs get to vote on it.

    Surely if we're in the EU we're in the EU.

  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.

    No, it means schools get to choose who their customers are. It's 100% producer interest.

    It allows them to impose a qualifying standard to use their services, rather like credit card companies do.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Matt's take on opposition to Grammar Schools:

    http://tinyurl.com/juc76t4

    Matt is spot on as usual. How are a Labour front bench full of grammar school alumni supposed to oppose this policy with any credibility whatsoever?
    They know how socially destructive selective education is?

    Both my parents went to Grammar schools, and both were delighted to see the end of selective education. My dad said his grammar (in a Lancashire mill town) was full of the worst snobs on earth. The middle class of the town controlled it and kept the poor out by the combination of expensive uniform and kit list, and ghastly snobbery to the few working class pupils.

    I suspect that not much has changed in the last 65 years.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.

    EU Parliament has to ratify any deal.

    By clarified I mean whether or not the British MEPs get to vote on it.

    Surely if we're in the EU we're in the EU.

    I had thought the Council vote was only for the remaining 27 members so I thought a similar principle may apply to the Parliament vote.
  • Options

    dr_spyn said:

    Headlines we have missed: 12th November 1918, The Prime Minister has no Mandate to seek an Armistice with Germany.

    October 1st 1938, The Right Hon Member has no Mandate to sign an agreement with The German Chancellor in Munich.

    13 May 1940, the Prime Minister has no mandate to offer blood, toil, tears and sweat.
    To be honest, the Lords would have tried to block Grammars even if they had been in the GE2015 manifesto. The test is whether they can obstruct, not whether they should.

    This just provides a more convenient excuse.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
    What? It is literally the producer getting to stop 'undesirable' consumers using their service.

    It is the most pro-producer anti-consumer move imaginable.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    Presumably this is an English-only vote, so the Tory majority is higher.

    I bet the SNP are tempted to interfere all the same.
    Tempted? I think it's beyond doubt that they'd vote against the government on this.
    It really is time to sort out the WLQ once and for all.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
    What? It is literally the producer getting to stop 'undesirable' consumers using their service.

    It is the most pro-producer anti-consumer move imaginable.
    Next you'll be saying that the NHS is anti consumer because it discriminates against healthy patients.

    Oh, and no one seems to have understood the low income quotas.
  • Options

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    The working Commons majority is in practice far smaller in the absence of a significant group of Lib Dem MPs in coalition, with a large proportion of those holding ministerial positions to boot. The absence of coalition has also changed the arithmetic dramatically in the Lords.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    obtaining her own mandate at a general election might help her avoid the fate of her predecessors.

    I expect that's exactly what she'll do.

    In May 2020.

    BREXIT talks aren't going to get serious until the French & German elections are out of the way......so Article 50 mid-to late 2017, deal wrapped up before 2020.....

    May 2020 - 'You asked, we delivered' - meanwhile Labour & UKIP have torn themselves apart and Sturgeon has been too busy stoking up grievance and affront to either call a referendum or run her country properly.....

    I wonder if we'll still have an EU Parliament election in 2019.
    I guess we're a member of the EU until we're no longer a member of the EU......but we've already declined the Presidency next year - so sacrificing our MEPs a couple of months early could do no harm......it would be worth it for the squeals of protest as they're chucked off the gravy train......
    I don't think it was clarified if the EU parliament votes on the final deal. If it does, we'd want to keep our MEPs up until the last moment.
    I don't think there was ever any unclarity about this. The treaty says " after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament". Being a parliament they presumably consent or decline to consent by voting, rather than by a darts competition or whatever.
    Thought "consent" referred to the negotiating position not the final deal?
    I can't see why you'd think that.
    Because it says the negotiating shall happen after obtaining the consent of the European parliament. I think. What's the full quote you had above?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    I feel like aging neck beards and country squires have been wanting to argue about grammar schools again for donkeys years. This is manna from heaven as far as they're concerned.

    It's rare I pull out this particular cliche, but hasn't the country got better things to be getting on with?
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Matt's take on opposition to Grammar Schools:

    http://tinyurl.com/juc76t4

    Matt is spot on as usual. How are a Labour front bench full of grammar school alumni supposed to oppose this policy with any credibility whatsoever?
    They know how socially destructive selective education is?

    Both my parents went to Grammar schools, and both were delighted to see the end of selective education. My dad said his grammar (in a Lancashire mill town) was full of the worst snobs on earth. The middle class of the town controlled it and kept the poor out by the combination of expensive uniform and kit list, and ghastly snobbery to the few working class pupils.

    I suspect that not much has changed in the last 65 years.
    Because the world of 2016 is just like that of 1951.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,973

    Sandpit said:

    Matt's take on opposition to Grammar Schools:

    http://tinyurl.com/juc76t4

    Matt is spot on as usual. How are a Labour front bench full of grammar school alumni supposed to oppose this policy with any credibility whatsoever?
    They know how socially destructive selective education is?

    Both my parents went to Grammar schools, and both were delighted to see the end of selective education. My dad said his grammar (in a Lancashire mill town) was full of the worst snobs on earth. The middle class of the town controlled it and kept the poor out by the combination of expensive uniform and kit list, and ghastly snobbery to the few working class pupils.

    I suspect that not much has changed in the last 65 years.
    Well that was a problem that should have been addressed in that school, rather than a problem with the structure itself.

    My parents both came from council estates, through grammar schools into the middle classes. Those same opportunities are much harder to come by these days, although Mr. Gove's work on expanding the Acadamies programme and more rigorous exams have been a step in the right direction.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
    What? It is literally the producer getting to stop 'undesirable' consumers using their service.

    It is the most pro-producer anti-consumer move imaginable.
    Ah, another one who wants to ban credit scoring.
  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theres.

    .
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.

    No, it means schools get to choose who their customers are. It's 100% producer interest.

    Hang on. I'm just about to buy a 4 bed detached house (hopefully) with my wife in the catchment area of one of the top 10% state schools in the country. We are certainly paying extra for it.

    Why? Because we can afford to.

    We could move to a cheaper house elsewhere in the town, outside the catchment area, and then either send our children to a poorer school and supplement heavily for private tuition, or work hard at our careers in the hope we can afford to send them to private school.

    If you're poor, these options are not open to you. You are stuck with what's in your neighbourhood and that's it.

    If these changes went through, and the school we want turns into a grammar, firstly our kids wouldn't 'automatically' get in, they'd have to pass an exam, and, second, anyone else in the town or surrounding villages who wanted it would also have a chance to get in through the same exam.

    I accept there are challenges on the age/type of exam, ensuring poorer pupils aren't disadvantages in it, and what happens to the residual school network but, overall, I'd say that's fairer.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    kle4 said:

    I feel like aging neck beards and country squires have been wanting to argue about grammar schools again for donkeys years. This is manna from heaven as far as they're concerned.

    It's rare I pull out this particular cliche, but hasn't the country got better things to be getting on with?

    Than driving aspiration for all children, and especially
    Improving the prospects of the worst off?

    I'd say that is pretty worthwhile.

    Or should we be diddling around the edges and manage our decline?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    I feel like aging neck beards and country squires have been wanting to argue about grammar schools again for donkeys years. This is manna from heaven as far as they're concerned.

    It's rare I pull out this particular cliche, but hasn't the country got better things to be getting on with?

    Perhaps your perceptions would be different if you had children of secondary school age?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.
    What? It is literally the producer getting to stop 'undesirable' consumers using their service.

    It is the most pro-producer anti-consumer move imaginable.
    Next you'll be saying that the NHS is anti consumer because it discriminates against healthy patients.

    Oh, and no one seems to have understood the low income quotas.
    It will be interesting to see how the income quotas work.

    As I recall a very high percentage of assisted places at Independent schools went to children of low income professionals, such as children of the clergy.

    What happens if after a couple of years the % of intake at a new Grammar drops below the threshold? Does the school cease to be allowed to be selective the following year? Or are some poor, thick kids who didn't pass the 11+ admitted to make up the numbers?
  • Options

    dr_spyn said:

    Headlines we have missed: 12th November 1918, The Prime Minister has no Mandate to seek an Armistice with Germany.

    October 1st 1938, The Right Hon Member has no Mandate to sign an agreement with The German Chancellor in Munich.

    13 May 1940, the Prime Minister has no mandate to offer blood, toil, tears and sweat.
    To be honest, the Lords would have tried to block Grammars even if they had been in the GE2015 manifesto. The test is whether they can obstruct, not whether they should.

    This just provides a more convenient excuse.
    Of course they cant block it. You just send it to tbem in April and then use the Parliament Act after new session opens in June if they cause trouble.
  • Options
    Morning all,

    It does strike me as odd that Grammar is the chosen policy for the big first non-Brexit strike.

    For a start it's not in Tory manifesto, so they will have a bad old time getting any of this through the Lords. Secondly, Greening has been in post about two months. Has she really prepared a detailed review of current policy and written a green paper? Hmm.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634

    Hang on. I'm just about to buy a 4 bed detached house (hopefully) with my wife in the catchment area of one of the top 10% state schools in the country. We are certainly paying extra for it.

    Why? Because we can afford to.

    We could move to a cheaper house elsewhere in the town, outside the catchment area, and then either send our children to a poorer school and supplement heavily for private tuition, or work hard at our careers in the hope we can afford to send them to private school.

    If you're poor, these options are not open to you. You are stuck with what's in your neighbourhood and that's it.

    If these changes went through, and the school we want turns into a grammar, firstly our kids wouldn't 'automatically' get in, they'd have to pass an exam, and, second, anyone else in the town or surrounding villages who wanted it would also have a chance to get in through the same exam.

    I accept there are challenges on the age/type of exam, ensuring poorer pupils aren't disadvantages in it, and what happens to the residual school network but, overall, I'd say that's fairer.

    No, you don't understand, they have studies. Written by people who went to public schools. Studies!
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    I feel like aging neck beards and country squires have been wanting to argue about grammar schools again for donkeys years. This is manna from heaven as far as they're concerned.

    It's rare I pull out this particular cliche, but hasn't the country got better things to be getting on with?

    Than driving aspiration for all children, and especially
    Improving the prospects of the worst off?

    I'd say that is pretty worthwhile.

    Or should we be diddling around the edges and manage our decline?
    Tosh:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37275092
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theresa May's majority in Parliament is no bigger than David Cameron's.

    She would argue the Brexit vote gave her (and all of Government?) a mandate from the many millions of working classes that feel left out of opportunities and the same chances in life that the middle classes too.

    And I suspect she'll have very little time for middle-class whinging about grammar schools.

    Nevertheless many people seem to have a real problem with academic selection by merit, as opposed to that on sport or music or art, so I expect a rather rough ride.
    The main problem I have is that the evidence seems to show pretty conclusively that in aggregate grammar schools lead to lower educational outcomes and to entrench the social disadvantages that poorer children have.

    That is of course why Conservatives adore them.
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in mind that there are only c.160 across England, now, and the dataset is highly limited. Besides which, the only test is an exam of ability; not houseprice or wealth or 'who you know'.

    We must find a way of testing and giving fairer access, yes, and the 11+ isn't the right way, in my view, but there's nothing wrong with the principle of academic selection. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    While we're bunging the Middle Class benefits, why not throw free University Tuition into the mix?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    I feel like aging neck beards and country squires have been wanting to argue about grammar schools again for donkeys years. This is manna from heaven as far as they're concerned.

    It's rare I pull out this particular cliche, but hasn't the country got better things to be getting on with?

    Than driving aspiration for all children, and especially
    Improving the prospects of the worst off?

    I'd say that is pretty worthwhile.

    Or should we be diddling around the edges and manage our decline?
    Tosh:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37275092
    Experts. We know how this ends now, yes?
  • Options
    LibDems up 31.8% to gain from Labour in Sheffield. UKIP up 1.3% to hold Shepway.

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 9h9 hours ago

    Mosborough (Sheffield) result:
    LDEM: 45.6% (+31.8)
    LAB: 34.1% (-9.2)
    UKIP: 12.4% (-9.8)
    CON: 6.1% (-7.9)
    GRN: 1.8% (-1.3)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 9h9 hours ago
    Liberal Democrat GAIN Mosborough (Sheffield) from Labour.

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago

    Shepway South (Maidstone) result:
    UKIP: 45.2% (+1.3)
    CON: 22.5% (+0.2)
    LAB: 19.2% (-8.3)
    IND: 9.2% (+9.2)
    LDEM: 3.9% (-2.4)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago
    UKIP HOLD Shepway South (Maidstone).
  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theres.

    .
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. One has to bear in. Indeed, I'd argue it's critical to our future. Many other countries do it and are baffled at our squeamishness.

    I'll ignore the jibes at the Conservatives.

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.

    No, it means schools get to choose who their customers are. It's 100% producer interest.

    Hang on. I'm just about to buy a 4 bed detached house (hopefully) with my wife in the catchment area of one of the top 10% state schools in the country. We are certainly paying extra for it.

    Why? Because we can afford to.

    We could move to a cheaper house elsewhere in the town, outside the catchment area, and then either send our children to a poorer school and supplement heavily for private tuition, or work hard at our careers in the hope we can afford to send them to private school.

    If you're poor, these options are not open to you. You are stuck with what's in your neighbourhood and that's it.

    If these changes went through, and the school we want turns into a grammar, firstly our kids wouldn't 'automatically' get in, they'd have to pass an exam, and, second, anyone else in the town or surrounding villages who wanted it would also have a chance to get in through the same exam.

    I accept there are challenges on the age/type of exam, ensuring poorer pupils aren't disadvantages in it, and what happens to the residual school network but, overall, I'd say that's fairer.

    Anything that's exam-based will favour those who can afford tuition. That disadvantages kids from poorer backgrounds. So, why not ensure all schools are excellent, not just some? Experience in London over the last 20 years shows it's doable.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    I guess we're going to find out how many Conservative MPs are opposed to grammar schools. Since Theresa May has no mandate for this policy, any MP who disagrees with it will have no difficulty in expressing that disagreement in the House of Commons.

    Theres.

    .
    I don't think that's what the evidence shows. O

    Grammar schools are part of a wider policy driving improvement and aspiration in the education sector.

    That is of course why non-Conservatives dislike them.
    How does getting special schools for middle class parents who can afford tutorial for their kids drive improvement across the whole education sector?
    I don't accept your classist comment, but it drives improvement because it prioritises the consumer over the educational establishment.

    No, it means schools get to choose who their customers are. It's 100% producer interest.

    Hang on. I'm just about to buy a 4 bed detached house (hopefully) with my wife in the catchment area of one of the top 10% state schools in the country. We are certainly paying extra for it.

    Why? Because we can afford to.

    We could move to a cheaper house elsewhere in the town, outside the catchment area, and then either send our children to a poorer school and supplement heavily for private tuition, or work hard at our careers in the hope we can afford to send them to private school.

    If you're poor, these options are not open to you. You are stuck with what's in your neighbourhood and that's it.

    If these changes went through, and the school we want turns into a grammar, firstly our kids wouldn't 'automatically' get in, they'd have to pass an exam, and, second, anyone else in the town or surrounding villages who wanted it would also have a chance to get in through the same exam.

    I accept there are challenges on the age/type of exam, ensuring poorer pupils aren't disadvantages in it, and what happens to the residual school network but, overall, I'd say that's fairer.
    You might want to hold off on the move, and invest the money in a bit of coaching instead. Save yourself a few bob, and also reduce the risk of your kids failing to get in and being bussed across town to the Secondary Modern.

    Incidentaly, as I recall, school transport is only free to the nearest school, not to any school of parental choice. Is this another way for the middle classes to keep out the riff raff?
This discussion has been closed.