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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Going to war with Sir Richard Branson might not necessarily

SystemSystem Posts: 11,709
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Going to war with Sir Richard Branson might not necessarily develop to Corbyn’s advantage

Writing exclusively in the Sunday Mirror, Shadow Chancellor John ­McDonnell slams the Virgin billionaire as a “tax exile who thinks he can try and intervene and ­undermine our democracy”.

Read the full story here


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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    1st like Sir Richard.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157
    If they were optimizing for a general election then this would definitely be right, but they're optimizing for people with a vote in the Labour leadership election. I'm not sure where they stand in relation to the Battle of the Beards.

    Maybe Don Brind or Nick Palmer or someone who knows the Labour Party well could give us a breakdown of how they see the electorate in terms of demographics / culture / political leanings?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    A train-based thread on PB? It's finally happened :D
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    Going to war with a guy with Branson's marketing machine is, as Sir Humphrey might say, somewhat brave.

    Branson himself also appeared in the papers the other day, badly injured from a cycling accident, would be easy to portray Corbyn as a bully that kicks a man when he's down.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157
    edited August 2016
    Talking of trains, I went to see Godzilla Resurgence yesterday. There's this scene where they attack Godzilla with the Yamanote and Keihin Tohoku Lines. The great thing about this scene was when they hit Godzilla and they earnestly subtitle it with the particular models of trains.

    Spoiler alert: Exact models of trains follow.

    ...

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E231系電車
    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E233系電車

    The other great thing about this movie was that a lot of it was concerned with the legal and political issues arising from an attack by a large, radioactive sea creature. You'd expect Japan of all places to have a highly developed legislative framework for this problem, but it turns out they're quite badly prepared; For example, the Self-Defence Force is permitted use force against a hostile state, but does not explicitly allow deployment against Godzillas.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,099
    @EiT: LOL
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,099
    By the way... greeting to PBers from an Emirates flight somewhere over the Indian Ocean. 20 hours into my journey (from home), about seven and a half to go...
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Talking of trains, I went to see Godzilla Resurgence yesterday. There's this scene where they attack Godzilla with the Yamanote and Keihin Tohoku Lines. The great thing about this scene was when they hit Godzilla and they earnestly subtitle it with the particular models of trains.

    Spoiler alert: Exact models of trains follow.

    ...

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E231系電車
    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR東日本E233系電車

    The other great thing about this movie was that a lot of it was concerned with the legal and political issues arising from an attack by a large, radioactive sea creature. You'd expect Japan of all places to have a highly developed legislative framework for this problem, but it turns out they're quite badly prepared; For example, the Self-Defence Force is permitted use force against a hostile state, but does not explicitly allow deployment against Godzillas.

    I have been involved in international efforts to improve regional and national level planning for a major biological event. One Southern European country did a tabletop exercise to respond to an outbreak. In that country, weapons of mass destruction were the domain of the intelligence services and hence they had the sole mandate to respond to outbreaks involving pathogens on the Select Agent List. Only trouble is that they had no diagnostic labs and no authority to mandate other Departments to do the diagnostics. That is why we run tabletops.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sandpit said:

    Going to war with a guy with Branson's marketing machine is, as Sir Humphrey might say, somewhat brave.

    Branson himself also appeared in the papers the other day, badly injured from a cycling accident, would be easy to portray Corbyn as a bully that kicks a man when he's down.


    Bad injured in a cycling accident training for a major charity event he participates in personally rather than just promoting.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,083
    edited August 2016
    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    rcs1000 said:

    By the way... greeting to PBers from an Emirates flight somewhere over the Indian Ocean. 20 hours into my journey (from home), about seven and a half to go...

    Good morning from the big sandpit!:smiley:
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    I think Corbyn's decision to take on Branson is more akin to Carter's famous attempt to rescue the Teheran hostages. I would also characterise his whole campaign in the way the White House did that fiasco: 'an incomplete success.'

    As for Hornby's magnificent trolling; :lol::lol::lol:
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Didn't Anthony Blunt lose his knighthood? Or was it just talked about?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    An interesting train of thought from TSE ....
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    JackW said:

    An interesting train of thought from TSE ....

    You make your point admirably, Mr W.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    It does happen but it's rare. Fred Goodwin and Vicky Price were both stripped of honours. They represent the two most usual reasons: imprisonment, and sanction or malpractice in the fieldto which the honour's citation referred.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ydoethur said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Didn't Anthony Blunt lose his knighthood? Or was it just talked about?
    Yes, Blunt was stripped of his knighthood.

    Talking of the Cambridge spies, let me recommend Guy Burgess: The Spy who Knew Everyone
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/14/guy-burgess-the-spy-who-knew-everyone-stewart-purvis-jeff-hulbert-review
    (or at least the first bit because I only started reading it yesterday).
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Wasn't Branson knighted by Labour in the first place? What's changed?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    Wasn't Branson knighted by Labour in the first place? What's changed?

    Labour has...
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,083

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    It does happen but it's rare. Fred Goodwin and Vicky Price were both stripped of honours. They represent the two most usual reasons: imprisonment, and sanction or malpractice in the fieldto which the honour's citation referred.
    Yes, forgotten about Blunt. Seems to have been don, or suggested, a lot more often in the last few years.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,099
    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    MTimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    Going to war with a guy with Branson's marketing machine is, as Sir Humphrey might say, somewhat brave.

    Branson himself also appeared in the papers the other day, badly injured from a cycling accident, would be easy to portray Corbyn as a bully that kicks a man when he's down.

    Bad injured in a cycling accident training for a major charity event he participates in personally rather than just promoting.
    Indeed. Someone who practices what he preaches, in sharp contrast to "I'm not well off" Corbyn.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...

    An executive summary for you :

    The Labour Party is Virgin on the ridiculous.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,083
    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Ah, just shows how perception can be wrong! I’m obliged.
    One of the people who lost their MBE is an acquaintance of mine, too, although I haven’t been in his compamy for quite a while.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...

    An executive summary for you :

    The Labour Party is Virgin on the ridiculous.
    Wow, you're on fire this morning Jack!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...

    An executive summary for you :

    The Labour Party is Virgin on the ridiculous.
    Corbyn has been derailed.

    There are Leavers on the line and the wrong sort of Spin.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...

    An executive summary for you :

    The Labour Party is Virgin on the ridiculous.
    Corbyn has been derailed.

    There are Leavers on the line and the wrong sort of Spin.
    Branson is becoming Labour's bogie man.

    I'll get my coat...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    edited August 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Sadly, I can't read the header as politicalbetting is "inappropriate content". I can get into the comment threads through Vanilla fortunately...

    LOL! PB works fine on the ground in Dubai, although other stuff does get blocked, like most of the UK bookies.
    TSE is suggesting that Branson is more trusted than Corbyn, and that the Labour leader is probably biting off more than he can chew, in taking on the businessman so directly - not that his disciples will think so, of course.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,083

    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Ah, just shows how perception can be wrong! I’m obliged.
    One of the people who lost their MBE is an acquaintance of mine, too, although I haven’t been in his compamy for quite a while.
    However, I looked at one of those who lost his Knighthood in 1983 and it says he became only the 14th person since the 14th century to be stripped of his knighthood.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    ydoethur said:

    Wow, you're on fire this morning Jack!

    Mrs JackW will be along shortly to pour cold water on me ....

    Sadly not a bed bath !! .. :smile:

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Ah, just shows how perception can be wrong! I’m obliged.
    One of the people who lost their MBE is an acquaintance of mine, too, although I haven’t been in his compamy for quite a while.
    However, I looked at one of those who lost his Knighthood in 1983 and it says he became only the 14th person since the 14th century to be stripped of his knighthood.
    A dead link and not therefore to be trusted.

    Also I think they meant the 15th century. Many people were stripped of knighthoods in the Wars of the Roses depending on who was in the ascendant at the time - Jasper Tudor had it happen to him twice!
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,157
    Also in "massive facepalm that may nevertheless work well with the Labour leadership electorate" news, they sensibly enough want to spend £15bn building houses but then decide they'd better not alienate the idiot vote, so they say:
    the net cost to the public sector will be £10bn a year, because two thirds of the construction bill would be labour costs, meaning extra tax revenues for the Treasury.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/27/jeremy-corbyn-1m-new-homes-plan-labour-government
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Good morning, everyone.

    This is many types of stupid. An over-reaction, which in terms make those leading Labour look rather precious. A misjudgement, which makes them appear stupid. A bad contrast, because, whatever people think of Branson, those outside the top table of the PFJ don't rank him alongside Fred Goodwin or Philip Green. A missed opportunity, because the NHS and its funding is an open goal. The antithesis of Napoleon's maxim: Labour has made a mistake and is determined it continue making one for as long a period as possible.

    Imbeciles.

    In better news, here's my F1 pre-race piece, including a lot of rambling and one tip:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/belgium-pre-race-2016.html
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited August 2016
    NoEasyDay said:

    kle4 said:

    John_M said:

    OT: I know Greece is so last year, but it's still on the rack.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-economy-pm-idUSKCN1120NY?il=0

    It's harsh, but they should have been left to crash again. The inequality talked about is Greece was never going to pay back what people pretended were loans, and so instead everyone was unhappy, others at giving Greece money, Greece at being forced to do things it didn't want to get it. And apparently none of it helps much since nwew arrangements or new money is constantly needed.
    When you speak glibly of being allowed to crash again. Please remember you are talking of some 16 million souls. Who did not ask for merkels Reich. Or the callous politics of Schauble.
    Their own choices led to this end. I was not glib about it 5 years ago, or 3 years ago, or 2 years ago, but it's the same thing over and over again, I have sympathy fatigue. How coukd crashing properly 5 years ago or whatever have been any worse than endlessly suffering while also kowtowing to others for cash?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited August 2016
    Attacking Branson will do zero harm. He's not Goodwin or green, but he's rich and he embarrassed Jeremy, he's part of the mainstream media attacks, that's enough.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Who'd have thought 18 months ago that a Labour party lead by Jeremy Corbyn would be so chaotic?

    McDonnell is of course right to criticise Branson for his tax status. It's certainly disappointing. However Branson has done absolutely nothing to undermine our democracy in this episode, rather the reverse.

    I'm not a big fan of honours (perhaps in part because I'll never get one), but I rather look forwards to seeing Lord Branson of the East coast take his seat in the Lords.

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    That STimes story is very messy for Team Corbyn man.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/corbyn-hit-by-electoral-fraud-row-g2x0ld52b

    Strong parallels with Uddin's mystery home.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. kle4, within Labour. But there'll be a General Election sooner or later when they'll actually need non-members on-side.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    It may do no harm but for mostit just reinforces how incompetent Labour are
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    F1: speaking of stupid, the rules mean that by repeatedly switching in new engines yesterday, Hamilton has 3 new engines available. Rosberg has 2.

    For that matter, someone could pull the same at the first race next season, take a penalty at Australia then have more fresh engines for the rest of 2017.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    I'm with omnium in not seeing Branson has undermined democracy. Politicians and hyperbole go together like...like two things that go together very well, but all he did was say Corbyn was being untruthful. Oh, I get it now. But anyone could say that, Branson just proved it and for all Corbyn's biggest fans will love this, I don't know why his people keep bringing up the situation.

    The claim it was undermining democracy reminds me of the GE and some green activists furious labour activists knocked on the door if someone with a green poster to try to get their vote. So rude.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    Mr. kle4, within Labour. But there'll be a General Election sooner or later when they'll actually need non-members on-side.

    I meant to include the word additional before harm.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    PlatoSaid said:

    That STimes story is very messy for Team Corbyn man.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/corbyn-hit-by-electoral-fraud-row-g2x0ld52b

    Strong parallels with Uddin's mystery home.

    I've not subscribed but this looks like a development of an old story where Tarry was cleared.
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/east-london-labour-councillor-sam-tarry-cleared-after-investigation-into-claims-of-electoral-fraud-9556550.html

    In any case, links to Corbyn seem a bit tenuous.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,083
    edited August 2016
    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Ah, just shows how perception can be wrong! I’m obliged.
    One of the people who lost their MBE is an acquaintance of mine, too, although I haven’t been in his compamy for quite a while.
    However, I looked at one of those who lost his Knighthood in 1983 and it says he became only the 14th person since the 14th century to be stripped of his knighthood.
    A dead link and not therefore to be trusted.

    Also I think they meant the 15th century. Many people were stripped of knighthoods in the Wars of the Roses depending on who was in the ascendant at the time - Jasper Tudor had it happen to him twice!
    I did wonder about that. A chaotic time. Thank you.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016
    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

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    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa.

    Indeed. She's shaping up very nicely on Brexit. Has clearly realised that failing to deliver will be the death of her and of the establishment politically. Almost any policy that gets the Indie and the Guardian huffing and puffing can't be all bad!
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    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Really interesting link, thanks Jack.
    The Military Cross revoked in 2014 was the most surprising to me.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Bedfordshire, I think most PMs would be rather happy to be placed alongside Elizabeth I.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    If Branson gets into space then Corbyn'll be in an interesting pickle - congratulate the great 'British' achievement, or suggest that its Branson's attempt to find a zero tax residence?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953

    F1: speaking of stupid, the rules mean that by repeatedly switching in new engines yesterday, Hamilton has 3 new engines available. Rosberg has 2.

    For that matter, someone could pull the same at the first race next season, take a penalty at Australia then have more fresh engines for the rest of 2017.

    Mr Dancer, they wouldn't be able to do that in the first race of the season, as there is an allowance of engine parts for the season (5 this near, 4 next year), penalties only accrue when *additional* components are used after the allowance.
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    Galvanises Corbyn's base. That's all that matters to Corbyn and his advisers.
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    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

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    Patrick said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa.

    Indeed. She's shaping up very nicely on Brexit. Has clearly realised that failing to deliver will be the death of her and of the establishment politically. Almost any policy that gets the Indie and the Guardian huffing and puffing can't be all bad!

    It's gesture politics. A nice nod to stalwart Leavers before the difficult stuff begins. She can't put that off forever.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Sandpit, depends on the turn-around time. Could spend all of free practice and the time in between doing it, no?

    Fair point on the allowance, but time may permit it anyway.

    Mr. Omnium, Corbyn would perform a volte-face and seek a deal with Branson to relocate the PLP to the Moon.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    If they were optimizing for a general election then this would definitely be right, but they're optimizing for people with a vote in the Labour leadership election. I'm not sure where they stand in relation to the Battle of the Beards.

    Maybe Don Brind or Nick Palmer or someone who knows the Labour Party well could give us a breakdown of how they see the electorate in terms of demographics / culture / political leanings?

    That's absolutely right.

    The YouGov polling showed something like 70-80% of Tories believed Branson hence the overall lead for him.

    For Labour (% from memory but approximately correct):

    Corbyn 39%
    Branson 34%
    Don't know 28%

    Corbyn's stance helps him with the Labour selectorate.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    By the way... greeting to PBers from an Emirates flight somewhere over the Indian Ocean. 20 hours into my journey (from home), about seven and a half to go...

    Lucky you. About to fly to Kansas, which is a somewhat less glamorous destination
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Charles, not sure if I'd be cheered by those figures if I were Corbyn. A small led over a capitalist pigdog, with over a quarter uncertain. Not great.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    edited August 2016
    Permission to fume.

    Am working from the textbook published by Oxford UP for the new GCSE.

    I quote directly:

    'The archers that fought for Henry [V] used large bows called longbows. They could fire around 12 arrows a minute.'

    FFS, why do I bother?
  • Options

    Mr. Charles, not sure if I'd be cheered by those figures if I were Corbyn. A small led over a capitalist pigdog, with over a quarter uncertain. Not great.

    Corbyn. Doesn't. Care.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953

    Mr. Sandpit, depends on the turn-around time. Could spend all of free practice and the time in between doing it, no?

    Fair point on the allowance, but time may permit it anyway.

    Mr. Omnium, Corbyn would perform a volte-face and seek a deal with Branson to relocate the PLP to the Moon.

    They need to actually run with the parts in the car, so unless they find a way of changing an engine in an hour they're not going to use more than four in a single weekend.

    Agree with relocating Labour to the moon, but sent Corbyn and the Trots, leave the mostly sensible PLP on Earth!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    Mr. Charles, not sure if I'd be cheered by those figures if I were Corbyn. A small led over a capitalist pigdog, with over a quarter uncertain. Not great.

    Corbyn. Doesn't. Care.

    Has he ever really cared about anything? I can't honestly think of any practical steps he's taken to help the poor and he ignored Liz Davies when she tried to enlist his help over the Islington scandal. He seems to have been more interested in supporting politically right on causes as a form of virtue signalling to stoke his own ego.

    Am I being unfair, however? Does he actually do real stuff that makes people's lives better?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Sandpit, fair enough. But they can still pull that stunt, just later in the season. And it's still daft.

    Mr. Observer, he will if he loses the vote.

    Which feels like it's been going on forever.

    Mr. Doethur, that's shocking. You're right to fume. I get annoyed with myself if I do it by mistake, or read it in other fiction, but for a historical textbook to make that error is appalling.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

    No, Smith will be what you want him to be. At the Blaenau Gwent by-election, he was a great defender of Blairite integrity.

    Now, he is a great defender of true socialism.

    Owen says these things about Europe because it is a convenient stick to beat Jeremy with. What he will say about Europe in a years time will depend on what is convenient for Owen.

    When he is in eurosceptic South Wales talking about immigration, it would be difficult to distinguish Owen’s speeches from something written by SeanT.

    What would you like Owen to be? He can be that shape.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ydoethur said:

    Permission to fume.

    Am working from the textbook published by Oxford UP for the new GCSE.

    I quote directly:

    'The archers that fought for Henry [V] used large bows called longbows. They could fire around 12 arrows a minute.'

    FFS, why do I bother?

    But how many of the enemy would they nuke? :wink:
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Omnium said:

    Who'd have thought 18 months ago that a Labour party lead by Jeremy Corbyn would be so chaotic?

    McDonnell is of course right to criticise Branson for his tax status. It's certainly disappointing. However Branson has done absolutely nothing to undermine our democracy in this episode, rather the reverse.

    I'm not a big fan of honours (perhaps in part because I'll never get one), but I rather look forwards to seeing Lord Branson of the East coast take his seat in the Lords.

    Not going to happen.

    I've been told that it was proposed 3 times in the past but vetoed by one of the organizations that has input into such matters. Blair (?) finally forced it through but given the resistance from the organization in question was only able to secure a knighthood for him.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    I think that the Telegraph story on this was that the government lawyers were confident they would win the case in October . So the question is being put, and they are confident a vote will not be legally required.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    I think that the Telegraph story on this was that the government lawyers were confident they would win the case in October . So the question is being put, and they are confident a vote will not be legally required.
    So it would seem, and that's fine with me, I just don't also get into a huff about the question being asked.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :smiley:

    Tom Atkinson
    CSI Islington looks rubbish. https://t.co/nIhoXNAZUP
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,953
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    Parliament has already voted for a referendum to advise the government on this issue.

    The only people now calling for Parliament to get involved are those who seek to overturn the voice of the public.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    PlatoSaid said:

    ydoethur said:

    Permission to fume.

    Am working from the textbook published by Oxford UP for the new GCSE.

    I quote directly:

    'The archers that fought for Henry [V] used large bows called longbows. They could fire around 12 arrows a minute.'

    FFS, why do I bother?

    But how many of the enemy would they nuke? :wink:
    Many of these weapons were French, so based on past experience in the Falklands War the arrow tips would completely fail to detonate on impact...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    I think that the Telegraph story on this was that the government lawyers were confident they would win the case in October . So the question is being put, and they are confident a vote will not be legally required.
    So it would seem, and that's fine with me, I just don't also get into a huff about the question being asked.
    It gives the impression of a delaying tactic. You typically don't take the government to court just because you were curious as to what the answer was, you go to force them to do something the way you want it to be done.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'



    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    There is no convention and no precedent. Referendums are still quite rare in the UK's history and I can't think of a example where the decision didn't lead to legislation - which obviously involved parliament - or where the next steps following a referendum were stated in the enabling Act.

    Constitutionally, foreign policy is a matter for the government subject to parliamentary action i.e. parliament's power is negative. However, the recent convention on major decisions e.g. the Syria vote, is to provide for what amounts to a binding vote. That, though, is without there having been a prior referendum.

    I'd argue that the decision to trigger A50 is implicit in the Act that set up the referendum and as such, parliament has already voted. There should, however, be another vote on the specific terms, once they have been agreed.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    JackW said:

    I’m not too sure about calls for previously honoured people to be stripped of their titles. While the miscreants, or alleged miscreants, probably shouldn’t have been honoured in the first place and indeed, the whole honours system is a mess. I don’t recall people deing stripped of such honours in the past, apart from Casement.

    Casement one of many :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom

    In addition the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 stripped British peerages from German royal members and an Irish peer in the service of the Austrian emperor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_Deprivation_Act_1917
    Really interesting link, thanks Jack.
    The Military Cross revoked in 2014 was the most surprising to me.
    I always felt very sorry for Charles Edward SCG. He didnt want to take the title (wad something like the 4th choice) but being 18 when he was sent from the UK to Germany to live in a run down palace didn't have much say.

    Tried to return to the UK after outbreak of WWI but the Brits said no and stripped him of his titles. The Germans hated him because he was British and confiscated all his lands leaving him in poverty. The Brits refused to help - I think he asked 3 times for his exile to be lifted but his cousins refused to even talk to him) The Nazis then used him (because no one else would give him the time of day) before he died alone.

  • Options
    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    Who'd have thought 18 months ago that a Labour party lead by Jeremy Corbyn would be so chaotic?

    McDonnell is of course right to criticise Branson for his tax status. It's certainly disappointing. However Branson has done absolutely nothing to undermine our democracy in this episode, rather the reverse.

    I'm not a big fan of honours (perhaps in part because I'll never get one), but I rather look forwards to seeing Lord Branson of the East coast take his seat in the Lords.

    Not going to happen.

    I've been told that it was proposed 3 times in the past but vetoed by one of the organizations that has input into such matters. Blair (?) finally forced it through but given the resistance from the organization in question was only able to secure a knighthood for him.
    Shall we have a Peebie campaign - "Baronetcy for Charles now"?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,133
    Sandpit said:

    1st like Sir Richard.

    He is a complete tosser
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Charles, sounds bloody rough on him.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited August 2016
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... woue wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving pa to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    Parliament has already voted for a referendum to advise the government on this issue.

    The only people now calling for Parliament to get involved are those who seek to overturn the voice of the public.
    Right, but what does that have to do with settling the legal question? The government thought it had the power to declare, it still does think that, and it may be right - but government's can be wrong, parliament is not going to overturn the public voice on this issue (sure they were majority for Remain, but that is not translatable into more than half would vote not to Brexit now the public has spoken), so there's no harm in checking even if obviously those pushing for a vote in parliament are hoping, in vain, Brexit can be stopped there.

    If all we cared about was the voice of the public the referendum would have been made legally binding so it couldn't be overturned. If a vote in parliament happened confirming a declaration, that would hardly be ignoring or overturning the voice of the people, by only saying it would people are suggesting parliament would indeed vote to overturn it, and where's the evidence for that.

    As I said, two sides fighting a proxy battle over a separate issue. One side are hoping legal niceties will help them stop this (without much hope in my view) and the other side are pretending legal niceties are irrelevant because FREEDOM AND THE PEOPLE, MAN! Even when the law is probably on their side, so why get so butt hurt about it?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,416

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

    No, Smith will be what you want him to be. At the Blaenau Gwent by-election, he was a great defender of Blairite integrity.

    Now, he is a great defender of true socialism.

    Owen says these things about Europe because it is a convenient stick to beat Jeremy with. What he will say about Europe in a years time will depend on what is convenient for Owen.

    When he is in eurosceptic South Wales talking about immigration, it would be difficult to distinguish Owen’s speeches from something written by SeanT.

    What would you like Owen to be? He can be that shape.
    Competent? Or is that expecting too much ?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    Parliament has already voted for a referendum to advise the government on this issue.

    The only people now calling for Parliament to get involved are those who seek to overturn the voice of the public.
    No, but it is quite a serious constitutional issue. What are the limits to perogative powers of the PM vs the soverignty of Parliament?

    If it were permitted then what other organisations could be left without a vote? EFTA? NATO? UN? Or could we rejoin the EU on perogative powers of a future PM?

    I am sure that a debate before invocation of A50 would be beneficial and am sure that it would pass easily.

    I think that May will be stirring up trouble if there is no vote.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,133
    MTimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    Going to war with a guy with Branson's marketing machine is, as Sir Humphrey might say, somewhat brave.

    Branson himself also appeared in the papers the other day, badly injured from a cycling accident, would be easy to portray Corbyn as a bully that kicks a man when he's down.


    Bad injured in a cycling accident training for a major charity event he participates in personally rather than just promoting.
    Still a complete tosser, just because he is rich does not change it.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Politicians lie. Whether the lies take hold and assume a greater truth depends on whether the lies have a resonance with the ordinary lives of ordinary people.

    You can argue, for example, that Farage lied about the effects of immigration on public services. Perhaps he did, but the lies struck a chord because in many parts of the country public services really are close to breaking. It does now take much longer to get a doctor’s appointment. His lies chimed with experience of everyday people.

    Trump lied when he said "It is rigged”. But the lie does contain a greater truth because for many people, nothing does change in politics (no matter who is President or PM). His lie contains a greater truth, it chimes with everyday impressions of nothing ever changing, the same folk running the country whether they are Democrats or Republicans, Tories or Labour. The system is rigged,

    Jeremy may well have lied with Virgin trains. But, it really won’t harm him because it resonates with many, many people who can see the trains (especially at peak times) are highly overcrowded.

    This is not just the Corbyn base, as alleged by Southam. I know many people who commute in London. They don’t sit in first class -- like the well-paid lawyers who populate pb -- they are packed, often standing for hour long train journeys, into second class. They will side with Jeremy on this, even if Jeremy technically lied.


  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    I think that the Telegraph story on this was that the government lawyers were confident they would win the case in October . So the question is being put, and they are confident a vote will not be legally required.
    So it would seem, and that's fine with me, I just don't also get into a huff about the question being asked.
    It gives the impression of a delaying tactic. You typically don't take the government to court just because you were curious as to what the answer was, you go to force them to do something the way you want it to be done.
    Yes, but as I have said repeatedly (so will stop) the motivations of those behind it is irrelevant. Something can be a delaying tactic or heavily partisan tactic and still be legally or morally correct (and I am not saying this one is either).
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    DavidL said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

    No, Smith will be what you want him to be. At the Blaenau Gwent by-election, he was a great defender of Blairite integrity.

    Now, he is a great defender of true socialism.

    Owen says these things about Europe because it is a convenient stick to beat Jeremy with. What he will say about Europe in a years time will depend on what is convenient for Owen.

    When he is in eurosceptic South Wales talking about immigration, it would be difficult to distinguish Owen’s speeches from something written by SeanT.

    What would you like Owen to be? He can be that shape.
    Competent? Or is that expecting too much ?
    Owen is promising to end homelessness in 5yrs this morning
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Dr. Foxinsox, there have been two votes.

    The first when Parliament voted for a referendum, the second when the people voted (discounting the fact it was in the Conservative Party manifesto, and that party then won a General Election).

    The idea votes in Parliament improve things necessarily is not accurate. The vote on the Iraq War, setting the foolish precedent for such a thing, is a rather stark proof of this.
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    theakestheakes Posts: 842
    Just back from the paper shop, middleof the road area, two loking at the Mirror and agreed with McDonnell. I keep asking is it TSE and Don Brind who are out of touch?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078


    This is not just the Corbyn base, as alleged by Southam. I know many people who commute in London. They don’t sit in first class -- like the well-paid lawyers who populate pb -- they are packed, often standing for hour long train journeys, into second class. They will side with Jeremy on this, even if Jeremy technically lied.

    That is probably true, but it is irritating for two reasons:

    1) He had no reason to lie precisely because it is an issue
    2) He is holier than thou (or rather his supporters treat him as such) so when he indulges in the dark arts of spin it is more galling
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,512
    FPT
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:
    Morning. Fingers crossed it finally gets the green light. And the fourth runway while they've got the diggers out, let's bring this shameful procrastination to an end and just bloody get on with it.
    As I always thought. Boris will be OK, given his general estrangement from the truth and the fact that his constituency probably supports the expansion, given fhe level of employment the airport provides to constituents. He should be more worried about the NHS already planning for financial crisis in 2020 when they are supposed to be getting his promised billions.

    Zak is the interesting one - he won't feel much loyalty to his London party given the mayoral campaign they forced upon him, which left him as tarnished goods, I would expect him to follow through on his original plan, so by-election in Richmond (indeed he may not even re-stand?)?

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,416

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:




    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving parliament a vote on it woukd not be ignoring the wishes of the people unless they voted never to declare article 50, which seems to be a very unlikely scenario. It strikes me this issue has been seized upon by sone few closed minded remainers and leavers to fight a proxy battle, the former hoping parliament won't trigger and the latter acting like suggesting parliament might need to give the go ahead is always an attempt to stop Brexit. Personally I feel like whatever the motivation if those who suggested it, determining whether parliament as a whole needed to approve the declaration was a worthy question. If indeed it does not, well, that's the government's choice I guess. It wouldn't be denying them a vote if they were not entitled to one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    Parliament has already voted for a referendum to advise the government on this issue.

    The only people now calling for Parliament to get involved are those who seek to overturn the voice of the public.
    No, but it is quite a serious constitutional issue. What are the limits to perogative powers of the PM vs the soverignty of Parliament?

    If it were permitted then what other organisations could be left without a vote? EFTA? NATO? UN? Or could we rejoin the EU on perogative powers of a future PM?

    I am sure that a debate before invocation of A50 would be beneficial and am sure that it would pass easily.

    I think that May will be stirring up trouble if there is no vote.
    There is a court case being mooted about this and crowd funding going on. What they want is votes in both Houses and it is clear those supporting it are hopeful that the Lords would block Brexit until the terms were approved in some way, possibly by a GE.

    I think there will be a debate in the Commons and even a vote there but any suggestion that the Lords can get involved is unacceptable.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141
    "As brilliant ideas go, this may well rival the Empire of Japan’s decision to keep the United States of America out of World War Two by attacking the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbour."

    I can't help feeling that people's hostility to Jeremy Corbyn sometimes makes them prone to over-exaggeration.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,133
    kle4 said:

    Attacking Branson will do zero harm. He's not Goodwin or green, but he's rich and he embarrassed Jeremy, he's part of the mainstream media attacks, that's enough.

    He is your typical establishment , not happy that Corbyn pointed out how crap his business was, people paying hundreds regularly to have to sit on the floor of his trains , the ones we pay for. Big spoiled rich baby takes umbrage and puts out propaganda to try and embarrass Corbyn. His trains ar econstantly overcrowded by people who have paid big money, the man is a charlatan, too big for his own boots.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    Theresa May accused of acting like a ‘Tudor monarch’ over plans to deny parliament Brexit vote
    'To trigger article 50 without first setting out to parliament the terms and basis upon which her government seeks to negotiate...would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch'


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-accused-of-acting-like-a-tudor-monarch-over-plans-to-deny-parliament-brexit-vote-a7213361.html


    Reader comment below:

    .... would be to diminish parliament and assume the arrogant powers of a Tudor monarch,”

    And ignoring the wishes of the people wouldn't?



    :smiley:

    Giving pa one.
    The electorate voted to leave the EU. Upon any terms or conditions - by any method. So if Mrs May decides to abolish Parliament in order to do so (she won't, obviously, although there is a case to be made for postponing the next General Election if needs be in order to achieve Brexit first) she is doing what the electorate wanted.

    Technically perhaps. I was more concerned whether under its own rules parliament was supposed to get a vote on such matters or not, which was a slightly more realistic possibility.
    Parliament has already voted for a referendum to advise the government on this issue.

    The only people now calling for Parliament to get involved are those who seek to overturn the voice of the public.
    I am sure that a debate before invocation of A50 would be beneficial and am sure that it would pass easily.

    I think that May will be stirring up trouble if there is no vote.
    There'll be trouble regardless, but given she would win easily as you say and we will hardly be having many future referendums like this to set a precedent, there could indeed be benefits.

    But I imagine not wanting to risk a vote is one of the things the Cabinet is current united upon, while they still hash out what negotiating terms they want, as per today's papers.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DavidL said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

    No, Smith will be what you want him to be. At the Blaenau Gwent by-election, he was a great defender of Blairite integrity.

    Now, he is a great defender of true socialism.

    Owen says these things about Europe because it is a convenient stick to beat Jeremy with. What he will say about Europe in a years time will depend on what is convenient for Owen.

    When he is in eurosceptic South Wales talking about immigration, it would be difficult to distinguish Owen’s speeches from something written by SeanT.

    What would you like Owen to be? He can be that shape.
    Competent? Or is that expecting too much ?
    No-one can lead the Labour Party at the moment and appear competent, because the membership is fundamentally at odds with the Parliamentary party.

    Internal factionalism is not a characteristic of a competent political movement.

    Until the Labour party have settled their direction of travel, there is no way any leader can appear competent.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,133
    Omnium said:

    If Branson gets into space then Corbyn'll be in an interesting pickle - congratulate the great 'British' achievement, or suggest that its Branson's attempt to find a zero tax residence?

    He needs another one, is one tax free residenc enot enough for him
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The question who triggers Article 50 is an interesting point of law. Either Theresa May is very confident that it is going to be decided her way or she is unnecessarily setting herself up for a possible humiliation at the hands of the courts.

    The point does not seem obvious to me either way, so I'm going with the latter. Silly - by staying quiet on the point until the court cases are heard, she would have been well placed either way. As it is, she now has to hope for one outcome.

    If this is an example of her strategic nous, I'll be expecting her to struggle much more quickly than many might expect right now.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,416
    PlatoSaid said:

    DavidL said:

    They don't like it up 'em. Go Theresa:

    As an aside. I think I would definitely vote for the Eurosceptic Corbyn now. Smith is clearly a grade 1 eurofanatic who will cause a lot of trouble if he becomes leader of the opposition.

    No, Smith will be what you want him to be. At the Blaenau Gwent by-election, he was a great defender of Blairite integrity.

    Now, he is a great defender of true socialism.

    Owen says these things about Europe because it is a convenient stick to beat Jeremy with. What he will say about Europe in a years time will depend on what is convenient for Owen.

    When he is in eurosceptic South Wales talking about immigration, it would be difficult to distinguish Owen’s speeches from something written by SeanT.

    What would you like Owen to be? He can be that shape.
    Competent? Or is that expecting too much ?
    Owen is promising to end homelessness in 5yrs this morning
    That'll be a yes then.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,133
    theakes said:

    Just back from the paper shop, middleof the road area, two loking at the Mirror and agreed with McDonnell. I keep asking is it TSE and Don Brind who are out of touch?

    Yes
This discussion has been closed.