To be honest what pisses me off about this whole dishonest debate is ignoring that inevitability that we would leave the EU within the next decade or so anyway as the Eurozone federalises and we get forced to put up or shut up on joining the Euro. If we got forced out at the wrong end of a Euro ultimatum in 2020-25 I think our GDP might be off by more than 4% by 2030!
The EU is sort-of going to federalize but nobody was interested in dragging Britain into the Euro. They have enough trouble with peripheral countries that want to be in there to start trying to pull in ones that don't.
Anyone found in the IFS assumptions how much they have estimated in their main forecast, for the gains from being outside EU regulation etc? Anything?
Yes, between 0.3 and 0.7% of GDP, so between £5.4 and £12.6 billion p.a. on today's figures.
Thanks. Some very rough figures follow as a quick thought.
Interesting that EU exports which are less than (I guess) 20% of gdp and yet we "lose" 4% of all that GDP (or potential growth).
Even though that "4%" represents >1/5 of all of those EU exports (based on EU exports = 20% of GDP assumption above).
Yet the burden of EU regulations which impact almost 100% of all GDP is a hit of just 0.3%.... shurely schome mishtake?
This is probably where I part company from my fellow Brexiteers . If you just close your eyes and swallow the bitter pill, its fine. 4% after 14 years is essentially noise. It's not really worth arguing about. The NIESR estimates are EEA ~ 1.8, FTA (e.g. CETA) ~2.1 or WTO ~3.2. Just say that it'll be a shortfall of 2-4% and leave it at that.
4% sounds like a large number (and it is! ~ £72 billion if applied to today's economy), but in the round, it's nothing. A small change in inflation has larger impacts. The issue is that the shortfall is going to be front-loaded.
If 4% of GDP is nothing, then £350m / week is less than nothing.
You can refer to posts I made before and after EUref that anyone basing their decision on a figure that (even @ gross) is less than 1% of GDP, or 2.2% of public spending, is an idiot.
You just called my WWC dad (and most of his friends) an idiot!
McTernan channels the view that profiteers are only trying to help customers (try examining your premises, mate) and that workers who defend their conditions and jobs are "fighting against the future" and should be crushed. What a master of argument.
On Planet John, management's right to manage is what it's all about, just as he learnt when he was a po-faced councillor in Southwark who was tough with workers who took sick leave in "patterns" he didn't like. He obviously had a whale of a time.
Class hatred masquerading as what's "proper" and "the future".
Alas, the cod-psychology of self-help and motivational mumbo-jumbo has seeped into the Brexit debate. Leave campaigners are telling anyone who raises concerns about Brexit to ‘be positive’, ‘just get on with it’ and, my personal favourite, ‘move on’. It’s the sort of language adopted by managers who want to railroad a project through and don’t want to hear the staff tell them it might go wrong.
But just get on with what? Move on to what? I’m as happy as the next person to move on if it’s clear what we are moving on to but, at the moment, we have no idea. We might have voted against the EU but what did we vote for? The government should have had a plan, say the Brexit campaigners. (There it is again; turn your own failings into someone else’s problem.) But it is difficult to see how anyone could have planned for this, especially when we don’t know what ‘this’ is. “Brexit means Brexit,” said Theresa May, which sounds decisive but is anything but because Brexit can mean all sorts of things.
Brexit, I have decided, is like having kids. It's that big. It changes everything. It is neither purely good nor wholly bad, indeed framing it in that simple way is fatuous. As the years go by Brexit will alter things irrevocably (just as having kids does) - and often it will transform things in ways we cannot even contemplate.
20 years down the line we will look back and probably be glad that we had kids, but it will mean opportunities lost, and money spent.
And right now some people are still in the early stages of Post Natal Depression, as the three month old baby screams in the bedroom and the nappies pile up in the bathroom
It's nowhere near as important, though I love the analogy for other reasons . If it were like having kids (i.e. guaranteed impoverishment) I'd have voted Remain even if it meant Euro, Schengen, EUarmy, President Juncker for life, the full shebang.
It's like time travelling back about 18 months. The UK economy grew by about 5.2% over the last two years. Imagine you're now back in March 2015. How miserable does that make you feel? Actually, that's a terrible example to use on you - had you published the Ice Twins by then?
The prices of possible Republican replacements for Trump are falling at Betfair:
Ryan 80-90 Kasich 380-400 Pence: 550-650
I try to avoid thinking in buzzphrases such as the currently popular "dogwhistle". I have to admit, though, that the term does seem apt to describe Donald Trump's brilliantly conceived and executed "second amendment" remark.
Republicans who want him out and who want to keep control of both houses of Congress need to act against Trump fast. At this very moment, Henry Kissinger...
The crucial difference this time is that Trump is a much weaker candidate than Bush, who is actually an extremely shrewd and intelligent man with wide experience of politics who deliberately played the buffoon so his opponents would underestimate him (and did it brilliantly for many years). Trump really is an unstable egomaniac who is very much in love with his own brand (a bit like a louder version of Richard Branson) and who has held no political office.
Will that be enough for the Democrats? It should be but given how poor their own candidate is and the fact that they are in effect the incumbents it shouldn't be taken for granted. The great danger for them of the last few weeks is that a lot of Democrats in swing states who dislike the Clintons will decide that as Trump has imploded so spectacularly there will be no need to vote. That might still just deny them the White House.
That's not the greatest danger. The greatest danger is the planet-sized October Surprise against Clinton that Roger Stone (for Donald Trump) is planning with the assistance of Julian Assange (Wikileaks).
Bernie Sanders is at 100-110.
What I'm enjoying most about the POTUS election now is the My Conspiracy Theory Is Better Than Yours meme.
It's genuinely hilarious. Trying to blame Trump for Hillary's emails re the Russians is a personal favourite. Ditto Wikileaks. If there was nothing there/the security hadn't been crap - it wouldn't be an issue.
The more I read the US press, the more convinced I am that they're missing the point. Too busy jumping up and down and not paying attention - again.
To be honest what pisses me off about this whole dishonest debate is ignoring that inevitability that we would leave the EU within the next decade or so anyway as the Eurozone federalises and we get forced to put up or shut up on joining the Euro. If we got forced out at the wrong end of a Euro ultimatum in 2020-25 I think our GDP might be off by more than 4% by 2030!
The EU is sort-of going to federalize but nobody was interested in dragging Britain into the Euro. They have enough trouble with peripheral countries that want to be in there to start trying to pull in ones that don't.
It wouldn't take long under those circumstances for other countries to start bitching at the Council and the ECJ that not being in the Euro gives us an unfair competitive advantage.
Anyone found in the IFS assumptions how much they have estimated in their main forecast, for the gains from being outside EU regulation etc? Anything?
Yes, between 0.3 and 0.7% of GDP, so between £5.4 and £12.6 billion p.a. on today's figures.
Thanks. Some very rough figures follow as a quick thought.
Interesting that EU exports which are less than (I guess) 20% of gdp and yet we "lose" 4% of all that GDP (or potential growth).
Even though that "4%" represents >1/5 of all of those EU exports (based on EU exports = 20% of GDP assumption above).
Yet the burden of EU regulations which impact almost 100% of all GDP is a hit of just 0.3%.... shurely schome mishtake?
This is probably where I part company from my fellow Brexiteers . If you just close your eyes and swallow the bitter pill, its fine. 4% after 14 years is essentially noise. It's not really worth arguing about. The NIESR estimates are EEA ~ 1.8, FTA (e.g. CETA) ~2.1 or WTO ~3.2. Just say that it'll be a shortfall of 2-4% and leave it at that.
4% sounds like a large number (and it is! ~ £72 billion if applied to today's economy), but in the round, it's nothing. A small change in inflation has larger impacts. The issue is that the shortfall is going to be front-loaded.
If 4% of GDP is nothing, then £350m / week is less than nothing.
You can refer to posts I made before and after EUref that anyone basing their decision on a figure that (even @ gross) is less than 1% of GDP, or 2.2% of public spending, is an idiot.
You just called my WWC dad (and most of his friends) an idiot!
Sorry . In fairness, the idiots include one of my sisters and two of my nephews. There were plenty of sensible reasons to vote Leave. The membership fee was not one of them.
Brexit, I have decided, is like having kids. It's that big. It changes everything. It is neither purely good nor wholly bad, indeed framing it in that simple way is fatuous. As the years go by Brexit will alter things irrevocably (just as having kids does) - and often it will transform things in ways we cannot even contemplate.
20 years down the line we will look back and probably be glad that we had kids, but it will mean opportunities lost, and money spent.
And right now some people are still in the early stages of Post Natal Depression, as the three month old baby screams in the bedroom and the nappies pile up in the bathroom
The baby is not yet here, and already the father(s) have done a bunk...
McTernan channels the view that profiteers are only trying to help customers (try examining your premises, mate) and that workers who defend their conditions and jobs are "fighting against the future" and should be crushed. What a master of argument.
On Planet John, management's right to manage is what it's all about, just as he learnt when he was a po-faced councillor in Southwark who was tough with workers who took sick leave in "patterns" he didn't like. He obviously had a whale of a time.
Class hatred masquerading as what's "proper" and "the future".
The phrase "up against the wall" comes to mind.
So what's your alternative? Luddites should block any technological progress?
Alas, the cod-psychology of self-help and motivational mumbo-jumbo has seeped into the Brexit debate. Leave campaigners are telling anyone who raises concerns about Brexit to ‘be positive’, ‘just get on with it’ and, my personal favourite, ‘move on’. It’s the sort of language adopted by managers who want to railroad a project through and don’t want to hear the staff tell them it might go wrong.
But just get on with what? Move on to what? I’m as happy as the next person to move on if it’s clear what we are moving on to but, at the moment, we have no idea. We might have voted against the EU but what did we vote for? The government should have had a plan, say the Brexit campaigners. (There it is again; turn your own failings into someone else’s problem.) But it is difficult to see how anyone could have planned for this, especially when we don’t know what ‘this’ is. “Brexit means Brexit,” said Theresa May, which sounds decisive but is anything but because Brexit can mean all sorts of things.
Brexit, I have decided, is like having kids. It's that big. It changes everything. It is neither purely good nor wholly bad, indeed framing it in that simple way is fatuous. As the years go by Brexit will alter things irrevocably (just as having kids does) - and often it will transform things in ways we cannot even contemplate.
20 years down the line we will look back and probably be glad that we had kids, but it will mean opportunities lost, and money spent.
And right now some people are still in the early stages of Post Natal Depression, as the three month old baby screams in the bedroom and the nappies pile up in the bathroom
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
GDP is abstract and means nothing to most people. But what slower than predicted GDP growth means in real terms is less government income. That means higher taxes, less spending and more borrowing. And those things do have a real impact on most people.
Put another way, that £350 million extra a week for the NHS is going to be going towards meeting current spending commitments. The NHS will see none of it.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
Anyone found in the IFS assumptions how much they have estimated in their main forecast, for the gains from being outside EU regulation etc? Anything?
Yes, between 0.3 and 0.7% of GDP, so between £5.4 and £12.6 billion p.a. on today's figures.
Thanks. Some very rough figures follow as a quick thought.
Interesting that EU exports which are less than (I guess) 20% of gdp and yet we "lose" 4% of all that GDP (or potential growth).
Even though that "4%" represents >1/5 of all of those EU exports (based on EU exports = 20% of GDP assumption above).
Yet the burden of EU regulations which impact almost 100% of all GDP is a hit of just 0.3%.... shurely schome mishtake?
This is probably where I part company from my fellow Brexiteers . If you just close your eyes and swallow the bitter pill, its fine. 4% after 14 years is essentially noise. It's not really worth arguing about. The NIESR estimates are EEA ~ 1.8, FTA (e.g. CETA) ~2.1 or WTO ~3.2. Just say that it'll be a shortfall of 2-4% and leave it at that.
4% sounds like a large number (and it is! ~ £72 billion if applied to today's economy), but in the round, it's nothing. A small change in inflation has larger impacts. The issue is that the shortfall is going to be front-loaded.
If 4% of GDP is nothing, then £350m / week is less than nothing.
You can refer to posts I made before and after EUref that anyone basing their decision on a figure that (even @ gross) is less than 1% of GDP, or 2.2% of public spending, is an idiot.
You just called my WWC dad (and most of his friends) an idiot!
Sorry . In fairness, the idiots include one of my sisters and two of my nephews. There were plenty of sensible reasons to vote Leave. The membership fee was not one of them.
and it the poll of reasons why people voted leave it was a statistical rounding error well behind immigration and sovereignty. Remainers bang on about it, but really the number of people who cited it as the reason for their vote is the square root of bugger all.
GDP is abstract and means nothing to most people. But what slower than predicted GDP growth means in real terms is less government income. That means higher taxes, less spending and more borrowing. And those things do have a real impact on most people.
Put another way, that £350 million extra a week for the NHS is going to be going towards meeting current spending commitments. The NHS will see none of it.
Good lord, and you run a business? It's a slightly lower rate of increase in government income. Not less government income.
To be honest what pisses me off about this whole dishonest debate is ignoring that inevitability that we would leave the EU within the next decade or so anyway as the Eurozone federalises and we get forced to put up or shut up on joining the Euro. If we got forced out at the wrong end of a Euro ultimatum in 2020-25 I think our GDP might be off by more than 4% by 2030!
The EU is sort-of going to federalize but nobody was interested in dragging Britain into the Euro. They have enough trouble with peripheral countries that want to be in there to start trying to pull in ones that don't.
It wouldn't take long under those circumstances for other countries to start bitching at the Council and the ECJ that not being in the Euro gives us an unfair competitive advantage.
1. Britain had an absolute right, enshrined in treaties, to not adopt the Euro. 2. Several countries which are obliged to join the Euro have not done so after more than a decade's membership and the ECJ has done nothing about it. 3. Even if the ECJ did come out with such a ruling (and I very much doubt that it would given [1] and [2]), there'd be nothing that could be done to enforce it.
It's a typical Leave scare story, all the more pointless for no longer being necessary.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
To be honest what pisses me off about this whole dishonest debate is ignoring that inevitability that we would leave the EU within the next decade or so anyway as the Eurozone federalises and we get forced to put up or shut up on joining the Euro. If we got forced out at the wrong end of a Euro ultimatum in 2020-25 I think our GDP might be off by more than 4% by 2030!
The EU is sort-of going to federalize but nobody was interested in dragging Britain into the Euro. They have enough trouble with peripheral countries that want to be in there to start trying to pull in ones that don't.
It wouldn't take long under those circumstances for other countries to start bitching at the Council and the ECJ that not being in the Euro gives us an unfair competitive advantage.
1. Britain had an absolute right, enshrined in treaties, to not adopt the Euro. 2. Several countries which are obliged to join the Euro have not done so after more than a decade's membership and the ECJ has done nothing about it. 3. Even if the ECJ did come out with such a ruling (and I very much doubt that it would given [1] and [2]), there'd be nothing that could be done to enforce it.
It's a typical Leave scare story, all the more pointless for no longer being necessary.
Where as the idea that we could continue serenely onwards as we are despite the caucusing of Eurozone members is one of the continuing fantasies of Remainers, similarly pointless under the circumstances.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
McTernan channels the view that profiteers are only trying to help customers (try examining your premises, mate) and that workers who defend their conditions and jobs are "fighting against the future" and should be crushed. What a master of argument.
On Planet John, management's right to manage is what it's all about, just as he learnt when he was a po-faced councillor in Southwark who was tough with workers who took sick leave in "patterns" he didn't like. He obviously had a whale of a time.
Class hatred masquerading as what's "proper" and "the future".
The phrase "up against the wall" comes to mind.
Your first mistake is in saying that the TOC (or actually I think concession in this case) is profiteering.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
GDP is abstract and means nothing to most people. But what slower than predicted GDP growth means in real terms is less government income. That means higher taxes, less spending and more borrowing. And those things do have a real impact on most people.
Put another way, that £350 million extra a week for the NHS is going to be going towards meeting current spending commitments. The NHS will see none of it.
Good lord, and you run a business? It's a slightly lower rate of increase in government income. Not less government income.
Than forecast. And that means tax rises, cuts and/or more borrowing. It just does, I'm afraid.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
Do you accept the IFS report? That is, do you agree with the conclusions?
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
A distant relative of mine I met last weekend has buggered going to university despite getting solid grades (mostly As and Bs) at A-Level and decided to do an AAT, then do a funded ACA. He's 18 at the moment and has just finished the final level of AAT and has a job lined up with some accountancy firm as long as he passed, they are going to fund his ACA as well.
GDP is abstract and means nothing to most people. But what slower than predicted GDP growth means in real terms is less government income. That means higher taxes, less spending and more borrowing. And those things do have a real impact on most people.
Put another way, that £350 million extra a week for the NHS is going to be going towards meeting current spending commitments. The NHS will see none of it.
Good lord, and you run a business? It's a slightly lower rate of increase in government income. Not less government income.
Than forecast. And that means tax rises, cuts and/or more borrowing. It just does, I'm afraid.
Oh in that sense, I do agree. It's around £40 billion or so as I mentioned down thread.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
Can't see it with the current batch of kids, they would have a heart attack at the idea of getting off their arses and driving around doing real work!
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
Another example: our old handyman (since moved to Germany) had a PhD in biology. After getting his doctorate, he did some research at Cambridge. After a couple of years of watching plants grow, he left and became a handyman.
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
I think the rates for semi-skilled and unskilled have been slaughtered, if you want to be an Electricians mate, or any sort of assistant or labourer you are going to be in trouble, fully licensed tradesmen, not so much.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
That is a terrible story. It's comparing differences in salaries between advertised graduate and non-graduate jobs and extrapolating that across a 40 year career. You can't dignify that with the word 'statistics'.
The truth is, as usual, more nuanced. If you've a decent degree in an attractive subject from a decent university, there's a hefty graduate premium. If not, not so much.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
I think the rates for semi-skilled and unskilled have been slaughtered, if you want to be an Electricians mate, or any sort of assistant or labourer you are going to be in trouble, fully licensed tradesmen, not so much.
Yep, the trades is the way to go. Though I guess the more people that go into them the lower the earnings will be.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
Not for skilled work and work that requires certification. Unskilled labour has seen wage drops, plus retail and other service industries have had low to zero wage growth (negative real terms) because of mass migration.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
I am irresistibly reminded of my Sir Humphrey:
'They are government statis...they are facts.'
To be withered by Hacker with;
'How is it that your statistics are facts and my facts are only statistics?'
The reality is we have very little idea at the moment of how much more a degree of any sort is worth now than a non-graduate career, because it will take at least 10-15 years for the new loan structure to play out and see what the impact is.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
Another example: our old handyman (since moved to Germany) had a PhD in biology. After getting his doctorate, he did some research at Cambridge. After a couple of years of watching plants grow, he left and became a handyman.
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
You're right that a PhD confers little benefit unless you're set on entering a field that specifically requires the qualification (e.g. scientific research). We were taking about regular degrees though.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
Yes, you appear to be hard of reading (although not short of kneejerk sanctimony )
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
I think the rates for semi-skilled and unskilled have been slaughtered, if you want to be an Electricians mate, or any sort of assistant or labourer you are going to be in trouble, fully licensed tradesmen, not so much.
Yep, the trades is the way to go. Though I guess the more people that go into them the lower the earnings will be.
Depends on what kind if demand growth there is tbh. That's not going to be easy to forecast, there is also the issue of retirement of older workers and earlier retirement ages in the trades.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
If fitting boilers is what you want to spend your life doing then fine. Education gives you options and the student loan is really a graduate tax. I'll encourage my kids to go to university but it's up to them.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
Yes, you appear to be hard of reading (although not short of kneejerk sanctimony )
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
So let me get this straight. Opinions based on statistical evidence are "kneejerk sanctimony", while those based on anecdotal hearsay and unsupported assertions are perfectly acceptable.
Where can I find a copy of the latest revision of the PB comments dictionary?
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
Yes, you appear to be hard of reading (although not short of kneejerk sanctimony )
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
So let me get this straight. Opinions based on statistical evidence are "kneejerk sanctimony", while those based on anecdotal hearsay and unsupported assertions are perfectly acceptable.
Where can I find a copy of the latest revision of the PB comments dictionary?
Opinions based on complete bollocks you mean as has been pointed out by several posters above.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
A friend of mine is in charge of Admissions for a Department at a local Uni-they are well aware of the problem and are worried.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
I thought Poles and other EU immigrants had killed off high earnings in the trades ;-)
I think the rates for semi-skilled and unskilled have been slaughtered, if you want to be an Electricians mate, or any sort of assistant or labourer you are going to be in trouble, fully licensed tradesmen, not so much.
Yep, the trades is the way to go. Though I guess the more people that go into them the lower the earnings will be.
Supply and demand innit?
Right now we have an oversupply of graduates and an undersupply of skilled workers.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
Another example: our old handyman (since moved to Germany) had a PhD in biology. After getting his doctorate, he did some research at Cambridge. After a couple of years of watching plants grow, he left and became a handyman.
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
Thus far it has, but I'm having a handyman moment.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
Yes, you appear to be hard of reading (although not short of kneejerk sanctimony )
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
So let me get this straight. Opinions based on statistical evidence are "kneejerk sanctimony", while those based on anecdotal hearsay and unsupported assertions are perfectly acceptable.
Where can I find a copy of the latest revision of the PB comments dictionary?
Opinions based on complete bollocks you mean as has been pointed out by several posters above.
I'm still waiting to hear any evidence whatsoever (other than anecdotal bollocks) that tradespeople earn on average more than university graduates (noting of course that the two categories are not mutually exclusive).
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
Another example: our old handyman (since moved to Germany) had a PhD in biology. After getting his doctorate, he did some research at Cambridge. After a couple of years of watching plants grow, he left and became a handyman.
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
You're right that a PhD confers little benefit unless you're set on entering a field that specifically requires the qualification (e.g. scientific research). We were taking about regular degrees though.
Indeed unless you do a Phd in some area of science, law, engineering or economics which is in specific demand in the marketplace it can set back your career unless that career is in academia as it takes you out of the workplace for years following graduation
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
If fitting boilers is what you want to spend your life doing then fine. Education gives you options and the student loan is really a graduate tax. I'll encourage my kids to go to university but it's up to them.
Nothing wrong with adult education or part time degrees.
The days where university means full time study from 18-22 for c.50% of the population before embarking on your career are probably over.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
That doesn't necessarily mean that going to university is now worth it (going to Oxbridge or the Russell Group almost certainly is worth it, but that may not be true of all other universities). For example, if one can qualify professionally while training, that might well be a good deal more cost-effective than first going to university.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
A friend of mine is in charge of Admissions for a Department at a local Uni-they are well aware of the problem and are worried.
Time to lower fees and sack the diversity officers?
Trump relishes joshing with the crowd, toying with the media’s piety, and sending himself up as the candidate who is willing to say anything. His fans understand this. The media — and most Brits, judging from the reactions to Trump in this country — do not. Or rather they do, but they are so determined to turn Trump into a post-modern anti-Christ that they choose to believe him when he is clearly joking.
Remainer Syndrome all over again.
Yeah, all those sad sacks not chortling over smirking Nige and his Breaking Point. Total losers.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
Should have an MA from Oxford, surely, or did they refuse to stump up the £10?
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
The average plumber earns about £20 to £30k. Of course if everyone trained to be plumbers their value would soon fall
To be honest what pisses me off about this whole dishonest debate is ignoring that inevitability that we would leave the EU within the next decade or so anyway as the Eurozone federalises and we get forced to put up or shut up on joining the Euro. If we got forced out at the wrong end of a Euro ultimatum in 2020-25 I think our GDP might be off by more than 4% by 2030!
The EU is sort-of going to federalize but nobody was interested in dragging Britain into the Euro. They have enough trouble with peripheral countries that want to be in there to start trying to pull in ones that don't.
It wouldn't take long under those circumstances for other countries to start bitching at the Council and the ECJ that not being in the Euro gives us an unfair competitive advantage.
1. Britain had an absolute right, enshrined in treaties, to not adopt the Euro. 2. Several countries which are obliged to join the Euro have not done so after more than a decade's membership and the ECJ has done nothing about it. 3. Even if the ECJ did come out with such a ruling (and I very much doubt that it would given [1] and [2]), there'd be nothing that could be done to enforce it.
It's a typical Leave scare story, all the more pointless for no longer being necessary.
Where as the idea that we could continue serenely onwards as we are despite the caucusing of Eurozone members is one of the continuing fantasies of Remainers, similarly pointless under the circumstances.
Yes, that well-known Greco-German alliance.
The idea that Eurozone countries would gang up on the UK is as daft as the idea that 'England' gangs up on Scotland simply because it has more MPs.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
A friend of mine is in charge of Admissions for a Department at a local Uni-they are well aware of the problem and are worried.
Time to lower fees and sack the diversity officers?
More likely that some universities close and others make their offerings more closely related to the jobs market.
On the plus side, the fewer joke universities offering irrelevant degrees the fewer economic migrants posing as "students" that will slip through.
Alas, the cod-psychology of self-help and motivational mumbo-jumbo has seeped into the Brexit debate. Leave campaigners are telling anyone who raises concerns about Brexit to ‘be positive’, ‘just get on with it’ and, my personal favourite, ‘move on’. It’s the sort of language adopted by managers who want to railroad a project through and don’t want to hear the staff tell them it might go wrong.
But just get on with what? Move on to what? I’m as happy as the next person to move on if it’s clear what we are moving on to but, at the moment, we have no idea. We might have voted against the EU but what did we vote for? The government should have had a plan, say the Brexit campaigners. (There it is again; turn your own failings into someone else’s problem.) But it is difficult to see how anyone could have planned for this, especially when we don’t know what ‘this’ is. “Brexit means Brexit,” said Theresa May, which sounds decisive but is anything but because Brexit can mean all sorts of things.
Brexit, I have decided, is like having kids. It's that big. It changes everything. It is neither purely good nor wholly bad, indeed framing it in that simple way is fatuous. As the years go by Brexit will alter things irrevocably (just as having kids does) - and often it will transform things in ways we cannot even contemplate.
20 years down the line we will look back and probably be glad that we had kids, but it will mean opportunities lost, and money spent.
And right now some people are still in the early stages of Post Natal Depression, as the three month old baby screams in the bedroom and the nappies pile up in the bathroom
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
I agree with this. The problem is that the droppers-out think they will have the same standard of living - the smart car, the nice house - as when they were doing that boring job in an insurance company
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
That doesn't necessarily mean that going to university is now worth it (going to Oxbridge or the Russell Group almost certainly is worth it, but that may not be true of all other universities). For example, if one can qualify professionally while training, that might well be a good deal more cost-effective than first going to university.
Well look at that distant relative of mine, assuming he passes his AAT (he will) he'll have a job with an accountancy firm earning £14k per year and they'll be paying for his ACA, within a few years he will be qualified and on a significantly higher wage while his school friends are graduating from university, many of whom will look at doing a CIMA or ACCA via graduate schemes. They'll have £50k worth of debt and trouble finding work while he will have been paid £42k gross for the same three years and will come out with an arguably better qualification and command a higher wage while they are unemployed or on a poorly paid graduate scheme.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
If fitting boilers is what you want to spend your life doing then fine. Education gives you options and the student loan is really a graduate tax. I'll encourage my kids to go to university but it's up to them.
For all but an elite or those doing degrees where a degree is essential as a route into a professional qualification (i.e. engineering, medicine) university education beyond 18 often closes off your options nowadays. You end up with around £50,000 of debt paid above a threshold which is not updated with inflation on which you pay interest. Effectively you are paying income tax at a rate of 9% more than someone 25 years older than you who also went to university for free. You have great difficulty making ends meet so cannot easily live apart from your parents. You are in massive negative equity before even setting foot on the housing ladder. You have also passed up on 3 years when you could indeed have been learning a vocational trade or being employed in one of the good quality training programmes run for school leavers by major employers, earning and saving rather than going into debt, and gaining significant experience along the career ladder.
Mr. M, I've found it hard to consider the IFS neutral since an early Osborne Budget they described as not progressive on the basis it entailed cuts in welfare. The 'cuts' were projected lower jobseeker's allowance due to predictions of higher employment, as if more people being in work were a bad thing.
[I'm not dismissing the short term economic turbulence and uncertainty we're undergoing, and will do for some time, of course].
So how do you equate 'short-term' and 'will do for some time' - sounds like you're hedging your bets already
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
The average plumber earns about £20 to £30k. Of course if everyone trained to be plumbers their value would soon fall
If they work for someone maybe, anyone running his own business makes considerably more than that.
Check out average job rates here which indicate a going rate of around 50 quid an hour, rather more than my friends working freelance in IT (outside London) make.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
Should have an MA from Oxford, surely, or did they refuse to stump up the £10?
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
I applied to do a PGCE last year and was offered a place by all 3 of my choices, and the one that I plumped for seemed very happy to have a PhD trainee. I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
Should have an MA from Oxford, surely, or did they refuse to stump up the £10?
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
I feel fortunate to have never come across this - quite a few of my colleagues have PhDs and my present school is very supportive of staff undertaking further postgraduate study. I'd hate to work somewhere where postgraduate study wasn't valued - what message does that send to students? Wonder if this is more prevalent in 11-16 schools, as I've mainly taught in 11-18 and sixth form colleges.
The PGCE course leader at my old university was an Oxford PhD himself, and there was a real mix on our course from former Russell Group lecturers to ex-miners.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
Yup, a mate of mine switched careers from database management to being an electrician. Previously on £33k, currently on a £200 day rate and he's still technically a trainee until the end of this year when he gets his final certification. Overloaded with work and does six day weeks at the moment.
Another example: our old handyman (since moved to Germany) had a PhD in biology. After getting his doctorate, he did some research at Cambridge. After a couple of years of watching plants grow, he left and became a handyman.
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
You're right that a PhD confers little benefit unless you're set on entering a field that specifically requires the qualification (e.g. scientific research). We were taking about regular degrees though.
Fair enough. In my case, I don't have a degree, and I've often wondered how my career would have been different if I had finished my geo eng course, or done a computing degree as perhaps I should.
Perhaps not that different.
We really need to get away from the ludicrous idea that 50% of our kids need a university degree. That does not mean we shouldn't encourage them into other forms of training.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
That doesn't necessarily mean that going to university is now worth it (going to Oxbridge or the Russell Group almost certainly is worth it, but that may not be true of all other universities). For example, if one can qualify professionally while training, that might well be a good deal more cost-effective than first going to university.
Well look at that distant relative of mine, assuming he passes his AAT (he will) he'll have a job with an accountancy firm earning £14k per year and they'll be paying for his ACA, within a few years he will be qualified and on a significantly higher wage while his school friends are graduating from university, many of whom will look at doing a CIMA or ACCA via graduate schemes. They'll have £50k worth of debt and trouble finding work while he will have been paid £42k gross for the same three years and will come out with an arguably better qualification and command a higher wage while they are unemployed or on a poorly paid graduate scheme.
That's true up to a point. But the price for skipping ahead in the early years may well be a self-imposed glass ceiling later on his career. In a number of industries (for example) the absence of a degree may make it substantially more difficult to progress to senior management/Board level. Again, Sean_F makes the reasonable point that this is essentially a Russell Group-esgue point, but your relative does seem to have the grades to make that kind of course possible.
I was part of that blessed generation that went university to learn with nothing much in mind for what would come next. It was free, we got grants, housing benefit and could sign on in the summer. We were so, so lucky.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
The average plumber earns about £20 to £30k. Of course if everyone trained to be plumbers their value would soon fall
If they work for someone maybe, anyone running his own business makes considerably more than that.
Check out average job rates here which indicate a going rate of around 50 quid an hour, rather more than my friends working freelance in IT (outside London) make.
For those who use Eurostar..... 12th Aug to 15th Aug
"Eurostar rail workers are to take seven days of strike action this month in a dispute over their work-life balance, the RMT union says. Staff will walk out from 00:01 BST on 12 Aug ust until 23.59 BST on 15 August, and for three days over the Bank Holiday weekend from 27 August"
BBC News
I know this is controversial, but I really do think it is time to ban strike action for anyone who works on critical infrastructure.
There is no way a few should be allowed to cause harm to so many, just for their own internal dispute.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
Yes, you appear to be hard of reading (although not short of kneejerk sanctimony )
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
That's odd, I thought we were told by Leave that EU immigration had driven wages of the trades down to 50p a day or something.
Well look at that distant relative of mine, assuming he passes his AAT (he will) he'll have a job with an accountancy firm earning £14k per year and they'll be paying for his ACA, within a few years he will be qualified and on a significantly higher wage while his school friends are graduating from university, many of whom will look at doing a CIMA or ACCA via graduate schemes. They'll have £50k worth of debt and trouble finding work while he will have been paid £42k gross for the same three years and will come out with an arguably better qualification and command a higher wage while they are unemployed or on a poorly paid graduate scheme.
Not only that, when 33 years ago I came out of university. I did the CPFA qualification in local government accountancy through degree entry, only to find that I was training with others who had gained merits through the AAT vocational route after joining from school and as proven and valued employees were being allowed to take the CPFA qualification as the next step. That can happen now, the difference being that I would be saddled with an extra £50k of debt.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
If fitting boilers is what you want to spend your life doing then fine. Education gives you options and the student loan is really a graduate tax. I'll encourage my kids to go to university but it's up to them.
For all but an elite or those doing degrees where a degree is essential as a route into a professional qualification (i.e. engineering, medicine) university education beyond 18 often closes off your options nowadays. You end up with around £50,000 of debt paid above a threshold which is not updated with inflation on which you pay interest. Effectively you are paying income tax at a rate of 9% more than someone 25 years older than you who also went to university for free. You have great difficulty making ends meet so cannot easily live apart from your parents. You are in massive negative equity before even setting foot on the housing ladder. You have also passed up on 3 years when you could indeed have been learning a vocational trade or being employed in one of the good quality training programmes run for school leavers by major employers, earning and saving rather than going into debt, and gaining significant experience along the career ladder.
Precisely so. My twenties felt hard. I had £12k of debt, no savings, and a job paying £27k in engineering that was taxed such that it consumed virtually all my income every month.
I moved back in with my folks, worked long hours away from home and scrimped and saved to get the money together for the a mortgage I could barely afford on a modest house.
12 years later, the student debt has gone, I'm sitting on nearly £200k of equity and £100k pension pot (so far) and I have a well renumerated job after a couple of career jumps.
Feel in a much better place now, with lots of options, but have no idea how anyone would follow my path now.
I applied for teacher training last year and was offered a place by all 3 of my choices, and the one that I plumped for seemed very happy to have a PhD trainee. I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
They've changed the system since I applied - now everyone is encouraged to make early offers very quickly to get numbers in:
I would also make a guess that you were teaching Maths or Physics from your username? Teacher joke; these people need to have (1) a degree (2) be safe around children (3) a pulse. In exceptional circumstances, the first two may be dispensed with (sadly that is not altogether a joke...). So I can imagine that they would be very happy to offer you a place.
I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
We lost one in my year, plus three others who dropped out in their first year (out of 15). Gloucestershire had a higher attrition rate - I think less than half of their course actually got through training in my first year of teaching full-time when I was working with them (this is just for history). I think it is either a job you throw everything into, or don't do at all.
I was part of that blessed generation that went university to learn with nothing much in mind for what would come next. It was free, we got grants, housing benefit and could sign on in the summer. We were so, so lucky.
And yet Gov't spending has ballooned massively since you were in your youth........
Precisely so. My twenties felt hard. I had £12k of debt, no savings, and a job paying £27k in engineering that was taxed such that it consumed virtually all my income every month.
I moved back in with my folks, worked long hours away from home and scrimped and saved to get the money together for the a mortgage I could barely afford on a modest house.
12 years later, the student debt has gone, I'm sitting on nearly £200k of equity and £100k pension pot (so far) and I have a well renumerated job after a couple of career jumps.
Feel in a much better place now, with lots of options, but have no idea how anyone would follow my path now.
That sounds very familiar! Though I had a career in software development rather than engineering.
Precisely so. My twenties felt hard. I had £12k of debt, no savings, and a job paying £27k in engineering that was taxed such that it consumed virtually all my income every month.
I moved back in with my folks, worked long hours away from home and scrimped and saved to get the money together for the a mortgage I could barely afford on a modest house.
12 years later, the student debt has gone, I'm sitting on nearly £200k of equity and £100k pension pot (so far) and I have a well renumerated job after a couple of career jumps.
Feel in a much better place now, with lots of options, but have no idea how anyone would follow my path now.
That sounds very familiar! Though I had a career in software development rather than engineering.
I should have bought a house in the south 10 years ago too
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
Should have an MA from Oxford, surely, or did they refuse to stump up the £10?
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
I feel fortunate to have never come across this - quite a few of my colleagues have PhDs and my present school is very supportive of staff undertaking further postgraduate study. I'd hate to work somewhere where postgraduate study wasn't valued - what message does that send to students? Wonder if this is more prevalent in 11-16 schools, as I've mainly taught in 11-18 and sixth form colleges.
The PGCE course leader at my old university was an Oxford PhD himself, and there was a real mix on our course from former Russell Group lecturers to ex-miners.
My previous school had one other PhD (the psychology teacher, who was an absolute legend that everyone got on really well with). My current school has three PhDs including the Head, plus two who are studying for doctorates with the school's blessing, plus one member of staff who has just left but was doing an MEd via Cambridge.
That all suits me very nicely, but sadly it seems to be rather rare. I agree it sends out a bad message.
Just interested to know what people think of this. They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
Just interested to know what people think of this. They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
Precisely so. My twenties felt hard. I had £12k of debt, no savings, and a job paying £27k in engineering that was taxed such that it consumed virtually all my income every month.
I moved back in with my folks, worked long hours away from home and scrimped and saved to get the money together for the a mortgage I could barely afford on a modest house.
12 years later, the student debt has gone, I'm sitting on nearly £200k of equity and £100k pension pot (so far) and I have a well renumerated job after a couple of career jumps.
Feel in a much better place now, with lots of options, but have no idea how anyone would follow my path now.
That sounds very familiar! Though I had a career in software development rather than engineering.
I should have bought a house in the south 10 years ago too
It's not for the faint of heart. I got a massive mortgage (6.5x earnings) and piled 6 years worth of savings into my 2 bedroom flat. It prompted me to change careers and move into finance where I was able to increase my wages by 40% overnight, though with rather less job satisfaction than when I was developing software. I was also very lucky that I could even get such a huge mortgage, today it would be impossible to get 6.5x earnings.
Meanwhile back in reality, betfair reckons Smith has about 8% chance. Seems more like it. But you never know, maybe the cultists will be so busy abusing people on twitter and making threatening phone calls that they'll forget to actually vote.
''I was part of that blessed generation that went university to learn with nothing much in mind for what would come next. It was free, we got grants, housing benefit and could sign on in the summer. We were so, so lucky. ''
True but far fewer of us went. 8% versus almost 40 now. You had to be better to go.
Just interested to know what people think of this. They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
If you think that's bad, try US elections where the networks will call most of the East coast and Midwest states hours before polls close on the West Coast (especially Hawaii). Could be a particular problem this year if the election is decided in places like Nevada
I applied for teacher training last year and was offered a place by all 3 of my choices, and the one that I plumped for seemed very happy to have a PhD trainee. I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
They've changed the system since I applied - now everyone is encouraged to make early offers very quickly to get numbers in:
I would also make a guess that you were teaching Maths or Physics from your username? Teacher joke; these people need to have (1) a degree (2) be safe around children (3) a pulse. In exceptional circumstances, the first two may be dispensed with (sadly that is not altogether a joke...). So I can imagine that they would be very happy to offer you a place.
I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
We lost one in my year, plus three others who dropped out in their first year (out of 15). Gloucestershire had a higher attrition rate - I think less than half of their course actually got through training in my first year of teaching full-time when I was working with them (this is just for history). I think it is either a job you throw everything into, or don't do at all.
Yes, Physics, and yes, the job (from what I saw) does indeed appear to consume your whole life. I decided in the end that having a life outside work (and the opportunity to do so) was more important to me than the satisfaction of teaching. The other Physics trainee on my course also dropped out, in his case to do an MSc in engineering of some sort. Nowadays I tend to view my son's teachers with a mixture of pity and awe.
I was part of that blessed generation that went university to learn with nothing much in mind for what would come next. It was free, we got grants, housing benefit and could sign on in the summer. We were so, so lucky.
I got a partial grant in the early 70s and worked in the hols to make up the difference. Of course far fewer went to university in those days.
I applied for teacher training last year and was offered a place by all 3 of my choices, and the one that I plumped for seemed very happy to have a PhD trainee. I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
They've changed the system since I applied - now everyone is encouraged to make early offers very quickly to get numbers in:
I would also make a guess that you were teaching Maths or Physics from your username? Teacher joke; these people need to have (1) a degree (2) be safe around children (3) a pulse. In exceptional circumstances, the first two may be dispensed with (sadly that is not altogether a joke...). So I can imagine that they would be very happy to offer you a place.
I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
We lost one in my year, plus three others who dropped out in their first year (out of 15). Gloucestershire had a higher attrition rate - I think less than half of their course actually got through training in my first year of teaching full-time when I was working with them (this is just for history). I think it is either a job you throw everything into, or don't do at all.
It probably looks a little brighter as a job in early August.
I applied for teacher training last year and was offered a place by all 3 of my choices, and the one that I plumped for seemed very happy to have a PhD trainee. I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
They've changed the system since I applied - now everyone is encouraged to make early offers very quickly to get numbers in:
I would also make a guess that you were teaching Maths or Physics from your username? Teacher joke; these people need to have (1) a degree (2) be safe around children (3) a pulse. In exceptional circumstances, the first two may be dispensed with (sadly that is not altogether a joke...). So I can imagine that they would be very happy to offer you a place.
I subsequently dropped out of training after discovering what an awful job teaching is that I wasn't suited to be a teacher, but that's a different story.
We lost one in my year, plus three others who dropped out in their first year (out of 15). Gloucestershire had a higher attrition rate - I think less than half of their course actually got through training in my first year of teaching full-time when I was working with them (this is just for history). I think it is either a job you throw everything into, or don't do at all.
It probably looks a little brighter as a job in early August.
No, late July. Early August you remember you're back at work next month and still haven't finished the Schemes of Work
Which reminds me, I have to do those now. Have a good afternoon!
Why is private polling ALWAYS overly favourable to the chosen candidate - surely people should be looking for UNVARNISHED TRUTH ?
Labour's private polling was the same, they had themselves finishing level with the Tories in terms of seats and only a couple of points behind on votes iirc.
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
It will be fascinating to see if kids begin to work out that going to university is a waste of time and that they are better off going into the trades? Could be a nasty shock for some higher education institutions.
A friend of mine is in charge of Admissions for a Department at a local Uni-they are well aware of the problem and are worried.
Time to lower fees and sack the diversity officers?
I'd say Brexit is more like dropping out of university to pursue some ill-conceived project than having kids (having done both). While dropping out offers the opportunity of making a fortune by freeing up time to follow your dream, the reality is that you'll most likely end up permanently poorer than your studious peers. Life goes on though.
But you will have "taken back control"
Can't put a price on that...
It also bollocks. Most plumbers/electricians/brickies make more than most graduates. If you want to make money at the moment and are not in the lucky top 1-2% that will get a job in the professions, you have much more chance of making it in the trades. A friend of mine is pulling in 500 quid a day fitting boilers at the moment, and he started earning before he was 20 unlike any graduate.
The average plumber earns about £20 to £30k. Of course if everyone trained to be plumbers their value would soon fall
If they work for someone maybe, anyone running his own business makes considerably more than that.
Check out average job rates here which indicate a going rate of around 50 quid an hour, rather more than my friends working freelance in IT (outside London) make.
Yes but before they run their own business they have to work for someone first. Anyone who manages or runs anything always makes more than those who do not
Meanwhile back in reality, betfair reckons Smith has about 8% chance. Seems more like it. But you never know, maybe the cultists will be so busy abusing people on twitter and making threatening phone calls that they'll forget to actually vote.
The interesting bit will be how many votes Smith gets as a loser. I am hoping it will be around 150,000, which is not a bad base from which to build.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
In fact, my doctorate has had a negative impact on my teaching career. It's bloody difficult to get a job in a state school with a doctorate as they think of you as overqualified and intellectual, and we can't have that of course. It really would be the end of the world if intelligent people entered teaching.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
I have a Swedish friend with a BA from Oxford and a Phd from Aberystwyth who has just been rejected for teacher training by a Swedish university so it is not just the UK
Should have an MA from Oxford, surely, or did they refuse to stump up the £10?
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
Phds are only an advantage in teaching at a few top public schools and grammar schools and sixth form colleges, everyone else wants to know if you can control a class
Just interested to know what people think of this. They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
If you think that's bad, try US elections where the networks will call most of the East coast and Midwest states hours before polls close on the West Coast (especially Hawaii). Could be a particular problem this year if the election is decided in places like Nevada
I know thats what I am worried about, Florida was called before the whole states voting had ended as the western part of the state was one hour behind the rest of Florida I don't want us to go down that road. I see itv were calling safe seats before they were declared in 2015.
Just interested to know what people think of this. They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
If you think that's bad, try US elections where the networks will call most of the East coast and Midwest states hours before polls close on the West Coast (especially Hawaii). Could be a particular problem this year if the election is decided in places like Nevada
Comments
On Planet John, management's right to manage is what it's all about, just as he learnt when he was a po-faced councillor in Southwark who was tough with workers who took sick leave in "patterns" he didn't like. He obviously had a whale of a time.
Class hatred masquerading as what's "proper" and "the future".
The phrase "up against the wall" comes to mind.
It's like time travelling back about 18 months. The UK economy grew by about 5.2% over the last two years. Imagine you're now back in March 2015. How miserable does that make you feel? Actually, that's a terrible example to use on you - had you published the Ice Twins by then?
It's genuinely hilarious. Trying to blame Trump for Hillary's emails re the Russians is a personal favourite. Ditto Wikileaks. If there was nothing there/the security hadn't been crap - it wouldn't be an issue.
The more I read the US press, the more convinced I am that they're missing the point. Too busy jumping up and down and not paying attention - again.
Put another way, that £350 million extra a week for the NHS is going to be going towards meeting current spending commitments. The NHS will see none of it.
Can't put a price on that...
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
2. Several countries which are obliged to join the Euro have not done so after more than a decade's membership and the ECJ has done nothing about it.
3. Even if the ECJ did come out with such a ruling (and I very much doubt that it would given [1] and [2]), there'd be nothing that could be done to enforce it.
It's a typical Leave scare story, all the more pointless for no longer being necessary.
Try examining your premises.
Graduates earn £500,000 more than non-graduates
According to government statistics, graduates and postgraduates continue to have higher employment rates and are more likely to work in high-skilled jobs than non-graduates.
Full-time employed, working-age graduates will earn an average of £31,000 this year, the government says, compared to £22,100 for non-graduates.
Anyway, I thought tradesmen's wages had fallen through the floor as a result of competition from uncontrolled immigration? Or am I reading the wrong paper?
He earned more, and the job satisfaction was much higher: he could see a project come to fruition in a matter of hours, days or weeks, whilst his research took years to get any results.
In fact, no-one I know who has a doctorate has been able to say it was worthwhile from a career POV.
The truth is, as usual, more nuanced. If you've a decent degree in an attractive subject from a decent university, there's a hefty graduate premium. If not, not so much.
'They are government statis...they are facts.'
To be withered by Hacker with;
'How is it that your statistics are facts and my facts are only statistics?'
The reality is we have very little idea at the moment of how much more a degree of any sort is worth now than a non-graduate career, because it will take at least 10-15 years for the new loan structure to play out and see what the impact is.
Non-graduates in this context includes floor cleaners, litter pickers, cashiers, shelf stackers and similar jobs. I believe I said going into the trades, that is to say a skilled manual worker with an appropriate accreditation, those jobs pay very well currently.
If I'd stopped at an MA and gone straight into teaching as I had originally intended, like a good friend of mine who shall be nameless, it's easy to imagine I would have been SLT by now if I had wanted. As it is, I'm still waiting to find out what my exact role will be in September following a reorganisation.
Education gives you options and the student loan is really a graduate tax. I'll encourage my kids to go to university but it's up to them.
Where can I find a copy of the latest revision of the PB comments dictionary?
Right now we have an oversupply of graduates and an undersupply of skilled workers.
The price mechanism is balancing them both.
The days where university means full time study from 18-22 for c.50% of the population before embarking on your career are probably over.
Total losers.
Although naturally Aberystwyth is the better university to have a degree from, we're all brilliant there
Disturbing trend. I was also rejected by Worcester University for teacher training for being too clever (they actually said that). I think the trainer was a bit nervous of me. I was with hindsight quite fortunate that the course at UWE was run by a genuine intellectual who prefers postgraduate qualifications (over 60% on the course with an MA or better including 2 doctorates and one MPhil).
The idea that Eurozone countries would gang up on the UK is as daft as the idea that 'England' gangs up on Scotland simply because it has more MPs.
On the plus side, the fewer joke universities offering irrelevant degrees the fewer economic migrants posing as "students" that will slip through.
Check out average job rates here which indicate a going rate of around 50 quid an hour, rather more than my friends working freelance in IT (outside London) make.
https://local.which.co.uk/advice/cost-price-information-plumbers-plumbing-jobs
The PGCE course leader at my old university was an Oxford PhD himself, and there was a real mix on our course from former Russell Group lecturers to ex-miners.
Perhaps not that different.
We really need to get away from the ludicrous idea that 50% of our kids need a university degree. That does not mean we shouldn't encourage them into other forms of training.
Certainly some tradespeople do well financially, but many do not. Same goes for graduates too of course.
I moved back in with my folks, worked long hours away from home and scrimped and saved to get the money together for the a mortgage I could barely afford on a modest house.
12 years later, the student debt has gone, I'm sitting on nearly £200k of equity and £100k pension pot (so far) and I have a well renumerated job after a couple of career jumps.
Feel in a much better place now, with lots of options, but have no idea how anyone would follow my path now.
http://schoolsweek.co.uk/universities-close-to-reaching-cap-for-trainee-history-teachers-a-week-after-pe-ban/
I would also make a guess that you were teaching Maths or Physics from your username? Teacher joke; these people need to have (1) a degree (2) be safe around children (3) a pulse. In exceptional circumstances, the first two may be dispensed with (sadly that is not altogether a joke...). So I can imagine that they would be very happy to offer you a place. We lost one in my year, plus three others who dropped out in their first year (out of 15). Gloucestershire had a higher attrition rate - I think less than half of their course actually got through training in my first year of teaching full-time when I was working with them (this is just for history). I think it is either a job you throw everything into, or don't do at all.
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/763330482616602624
https://twitter.com/HarryAEvans/status/763350421788364800
https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/626434202121191427
That all suits me very nicely, but sadly it seems to be rather rare. I agree it sends out a bad message.
They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
They reveal the exit poll on the BBC exactly at 10pm but people who are still in line to vote can still vote if they have a raffel ticket after ten so in theory people who are in line with a smartphone can see this exit poll and then go to vote having already known the likely result. That is unfair as that will affect their vote. It won't effect that many votes but could in future say if there were problems early in the day in key seats.
True but far fewer of us went. 8% versus almost 40 now. You had to be better to go.
Which reminds me, I have to do those now. Have a good afternoon!
Clinton 50 .. Trump 44
http://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rAjnCYJjgvBw/v0
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/poll-clinton-leads-trump-226858