O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
"In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor."
Because it's AND, not OR.
Many of the recent attacks appear to have been perpetrated by people who had a mental health issue and who were drawn into Islamic radicalisation.
There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country.
Just to be accurate, there has been a number of high profile knife attacks by nutters on randoms in the street, who aren't Muslims, over the past few months.
The difference here, I believe is that the authorities thought it was (or think it is) a terrorist inspired attack, thus we got the media blackout and the strange statements. A young Muslim man randomly stabbing people and then waiting around to be shot has all the hallmarks as the ones in Germany.
They definitely briefed the media along those lines. Compare the reporting to gang stabbing that occurred on the same evening.
However, perhaps in this case he was just a nutter.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
But he was Norwegian - the BBC have been telling us that for hours.
'O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.'
Spot on, it's the new excuse and was used in Germany within the last couple of weeks. Pure coincidence the murderer was a Muslim..
Right now at this moment in time Trump has as much chance of becoming President as Smith has of becoming Labour leader.
Yup - he's killing himself.
If he would just concentrate exclusively on immigration, jobs, the economy, and relentlessly attack Hillary Clinton and her record, then he will win in November.
He has to beat one person - Hillary Clinton. Every day, news cycle, news bulletin that reports him picking fights with his own party's politicians, families of dead soldiers, or anything else at all, makes him lose more ground to Hillary.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Except that she will have got precisely no-one to vote for her and yet has power over the laws which govern us. It is as offensive to democracy as having an unelected EU bureaucrat bossing us about. And it is something we can do something about.
Baubles should not give one a role in the legislature.
The White Rabbit - "There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country."
Would you care to cite any event in the past 12 months where there has been an attack by someone with a mental health issue that was similar to what happened at Leytonstone tube or yesterday in Russell Square and where there was no question of a possible religious / terrorism angle?
I think that if you are going to attack people indiscriminately then you have mental health issues.
If you adhere to an ideology or belief then that is a symptom not a cause and that symptom can be anything.
Where you are right is when that cause or belief is of a violent intent. Such as Islam. Or WHUFC.
Closer to 30% just, provided no split, 25-27%. what the hell is he doing?
There are ways for very minor parties to get notice. And they do better than he does.
The LDs are irrelevant to national politics. Need to focus on councils if they want to continue to exist.
But there is a huge space opening up on the centre left. Smith and Corbyn sounded like a wanky, third division Trotsky and Lenin tonight. Wholly unelectable.
A Blairite party (untainted by Iraq) could sweep to power in 2020 or 2025 when the voters get bored of the Tories (which they will).
It's amazing no-one is seizing the moment. The Lib Dems could see a remarkable resurgence if they play it right.
The LDs have yet to discover a reason to continue existing. Once they find that, they might start rebuilding as a national force. But it is a long term project and will require moving on to a different leader.
The problem is their biggest talent is Clegg - and he isn't going to make a comeback.
Maybe true. Right now we are looking at endless governance by a centre-right Tory party. Even as a rightwinger I find that a little depressing.
On the other hand, Singapore, Hong Kong, and China have done very well in similar electoral circumstances. Heh.
But not Japan which has been led by a centre right party so successful they make the Tories look like Ed Milliband.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
But he was Norwegian - the BBC have been telling us that for hours.
Zack the Norwegian....It is odd how an media organisation as large as the BBC recently seems to struggle to find the names of these people, despite them being out in the public domain.
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
But he was Norwegian - the BBC have been telling us that for hours.
Zack the Norwegian....It is odd how an media organisation as large as the BBC recently seems to struggle to find the names of these people, despite them being out in the public domain.
'O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.'
Spot on, it's the new excuse and was used in Germany within the last couple of weeks. Pure coincidence the murderer was a Muslim..
Far better to pin the blame on mental health - that spreads the blame far more effectively....
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Except that she will have got precisely no-one to vote for her and yet has power over the laws which govern us. It is as offensive to democracy as having an unelected EU bureaucrat bossing us about. And it is something we can do something about.
Baubles should not give one a role in the legislature.
She got to where she is because she really really wanted to. Nothing undemocratic about her. Or Mark Zuckerberg.
She then gets rewarded with a gong. And becomes part of the legislature. OK but then between her and Dickie Attenbrough there's not much to choose. Blame the system.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
But he was Norwegian - the BBC have been telling us that for hours.
Zack the Norwegian....It is odd how an media organisation as large as the BBC recently seems to struggle to find the names of these people, despite them being out in the public domain.
BBC World Service described him this morning as Norwegian of middle eastern extraction.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
"In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor."
Because it's AND, not OR.
Many of the recent attacks appear to have been perpetrated by people who had a mental health issue and who were drawn into Islamic radicalisation.
There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country.
You are better than this.
Christianity is not driving or attracting lone nutters towards mass violence. Nor is Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, atheism, or Cleggism.
One religion - ONE - ISLAM - has metastasized such that it now gives a meaning and vehicle to every psycho in the world who needs a reason to be evil, and at the same time it is ALSO producing vile terrorists by the thousands, who - quite logically and sensible, by their standards - want to slaughter us with our kids.
Islam is our enemy. It simply is. Too many of THEM want us dead. Denying this is ridiculous. We need to build walls until their madness ends.
Over a billion Muslims do not want to kill you. Some enemies they are.
I am sure some Iraqi is blaming all Brits in the same way, asking why they and not French or Germans or Swedes decided to rip up his country.
The White Rabbit - "There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country."
Would you care to cite any event in the past 12 months where there has been an attack by someone with a mental health issue that was similar to what happened at Leytonstone tube or yesterday in Russell Square and where there was no question of a possible religious / terrorism angle?
Between fifty and seventy people are killed each year by those with mental health problems.
My point was not to say we don't have a radicalisation problem. We clearly do. Part of that is clearly inspiring other people to commit acts of terror, rather than violence.
The only thing I object to is the idea that if mental health is the cause, then islamic radicalisation can't be. That idea is circulated by those who want to make out the only cause is mental health, and those who think it is irrelevant as the cause is radicalisation.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
But he was Norwegian - the BBC have been telling us that for hours.
Zack the Norwegian....It is odd how an media organisation as large as the BBC recently seems to struggle to find the names of these people, despite them being out in the public domain.
BBC World Service described him this morning as Norwegian of middle eastern extraction.
Funny geographical knowledge there. Didn't know Somali was in the Middle East.
Huge Remain vote in Rushcliffe despite the huge Tory majority, that's a shock...
Look who the MP is
I do love how he has somehow bent the general feeling within the constituency. As if, for the last thirty years, residents who agree with his stance have disproportionately chosen to live in the area and those who disagree, leave.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
I'm sorry but that last paragraph is just wishful thinking, particularly when no outlet is linking it to terrorism. It is far more likely that it provokes Trump into making another outlandish statement that pushes his numbers even further downward.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
You've obviously put your jackboots in safe storage, for a while at least.
'O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.'
Spot on, it's the new excuse and was used in Germany within the last couple of weeks. Pure coincidence the murderer was a Muslim..
Far better to pin the blame on mental health - that spreads the blame far more effectively....
A much better story would be that he was a Seventh Day Adventist who was provoked by the poor recent performance of Leyton Orient. Unfortunately it's not true.
Former member of Unite who never paid the political levy commented to me tonight that he was amazed to receive a ballot paper for the Labour Leadership. Who verifies these affiliate votes? I'm guessing its Unite themselves.
The papers haven't even gone out yet so I would take that one with a pinch of salt.
One extra sadness for the day. A man has died from his injuries post-Nice. His wife and son were killed in the attack. His now-orphaned daughter remains in hospital.
A question I've had to ask since I got my first full time job in 2010. Problem is, I don't have enough for a house, and there's nothing else I feel like spending large amounts on (since the PC is paid for).
I've taken a cue from PB and intend to waste a bunch on an overpriced holiday.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
I hear what you are saying. The point I was trying to make though is that people with mental illness face enough stigma as it is today without having the authorities blast out messages when we have these sorts of attacks that "don't worry people, it is just the crazies, not anything to do with ISIS" when they simply do not have all the evidence just because they are scared if the public focuses on a possible Islamic terrorist angle.
I hear what you are saying. The point I was trying to make though is that people with mental illness face enough stigma as it is today without having the authorities blast out messages when we have these sorts of attacks that "don't worry people, it is just the crazies, not anything to do with ISIS" when they simply do not have all the evidence just because they are scared if the public focuses on a possible Islamic terrorist angle.
The White Rabbit - "There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country."
Would you care to cite any event in the past 12 months where there has been an attack by someone with a mental health issue that was similar to what happened at Leytonstone tube or yesterday in Russell Square and where there was no question of a possible religious / terrorism angle?
I agree with your general point and have made the same point myself. Mentally ill people are more likely to harm themselves or their immediate families than strangers in the street. They are being scapegoated in a way which is going to set back all the good work which has been done to get people to speak openly about mental illness, particularly amongst the young and to get proper resources to help them.
It is really quite disturbing the extent to which we will look for any cause for terrorists' acts other than the one which seems to motivate them.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is a very young male centered religion, but it was designed that way to encourage rapid military expansion that needs plenty of violent young males as soldiers.
You can say that Islam is an army with a religion, much like Prussia was an army with a state.
In every presidential election since 1888, the members and Executive Board of the Harvard Republican Club have gathered to discuss, debate, and eventually endorse the standard-bearer of our party. But for the first time in 128 years, we, the oldest College Republicans chapter in the nation, will not be endorsing the Republican nominee.
Donald Trump holds views that are antithetical to our values not only as Republicans, but as Americans. The rhetoric he espouses –from racist slander to misogynistic taunts– is not consistent with our conservative principles, and his repeated mocking of the disabled and belittling of the sacrifices made by prisoners of war, Gold Star families, and Purple Heart recipients is not only bad politics, but absurdly cruel.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
In every presidential election since 1888, the members and Executive Board of the Harvard Republican Club have gathered to discuss, debate, and eventually endorse the standard-bearer of our party. But for the first time in 128 years, we, the oldest College Republicans chapter in the nation, will not be endorsing the Republican nominee.
Donald Trump holds views that are antithetical to our values not only as Republicans, but as Americans. The rhetoric he espouses –from racist slander to misogynistic taunts– is not consistent with our conservative principles, and his repeated mocking of the disabled and belittling of the sacrifices made by prisoners of war, Gold Star families, and Purple Heart recipients is not only bad politics, but absurdly cruel.
O/T, re the London stabbings, ius so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
n London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
Because it's AND, not OR.
Many of the recent attacks appear to have been perpetrated by people who had a mental health issue and who were drawn into Islamic radicalisation.
There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country.
You are better than this.
Christianity is not driving or attracting lone nutters towards mass violence. Nor is Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, atheism, or Cleggism.
One religion - ONE - ISLAM - has metastasized such that it now gives a meaning and vehicle to every psycho in the world who needs a reason to be evil, and at the same time it is ALSO producing vile terrorists by the thousands, who - quite logically and sensible, by their standards - want to slaughter us with our kids.
Islam is our enemy. It simply is. Too many of THEM want us dead. Denying this is ridiculous. We need to build walls until their madness ends.
Over a billion Muslims do not want to kill you. Some enemies they are.
I am sure some Iraqi is blaming all Brits in the same way, asking why they and not French or Germans or Swedes decided to rip up his country.
Let's look at the surveys into mainstream Muslim thinking - and you see significant support for things that are completely at odds with modern liberal society.
There is a fundamental clash between a lot of Islamic thinking and the way we currently live in the West. And it is not up to us to change to accommodate their outdated thinking.
Islam needs to undergo the equivalent of their Reformation. They are the ones who have to go through the pain/process of their own Enlightenment. They have to take on and defeat the extremists from within.
Unless and until that happens, Islam will be tainted by those who use their 'faith' as a justification for murder, rape and countless other crimes.
I don't know how quickly this can happen or how it can be encouraged. But Islam has to reform itself. We can't do it for them. We can't defeat them by trying to impose our belief systems on them. We can't defeat these twisted ideas with bombs.
But we can refuse to tolerate behaviours that run contrary to our values. We can insist that our laws are followed. We can insist that all communities are open to our criminal justice and related systems.
Multiculturalism has failed all communities in the UK. We need to have a fully open society. We must not tolerate enclaves or no go areas.
The White Rabbit - "Between fifty and seventy people are killed each year by those with mental health problems."
I am not saying people with mental health problems do not kill - they clearly do.
My question was where has there been any other example in the past 12 months where someone with mental illness has gone on a killing spree in a public place, attacking random people and where there has been no question of a possible terrorist motive?
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
You've obviously put your jackboots in safe storage, for a while at least.
Absolutely no idea what you are talking about, presumably labelling me as some sort of Nazi?
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Except that she will have got precisely no-one to vote for her and yet has power over the laws which govern us. It is as offensive to democracy as having an unelected EU bureaucrat bossing us about. And it is something we can do something about.
Baubles should not give one a role in the legislature.
She got to where she is because she really really wanted to. Nothing undemocratic about her. Or Mark Zuckerberg.
She then gets rewarded with a gong. And becomes part of the legislature. OK but then between her and Dickie Attenbrough there's not much to choose. Blame the system.
Attenborough has immense knowledge and has contributed to society. Chakrabati is an idiot who has not.
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
Desperate stuff.
It won't be too long before we have left the EU and eurofanatics such as yourself will have to make the case for rejoining with no opt-outs, vetos or rebates.
The White Rabbit - "There are people with mental health issues that perpetrate acts of violence that are unrelated to any particular ideology, every day in this country."
Would you care to cite any event in the past 12 months where there has been an attack by someone with a mental health issue that was similar to what happened at Leytonstone tube or yesterday in Russell Square and where there was no question of a possible religious / terrorism angle?
The White Rabbit - "Between fifty and seventy people are killed each year by those with mental health problems."
I am not saying people with mental health problems do not kill - they clearly do.
My question was where has there been any other example in the past 12 months where someone with mental illness has gone on a killing spree in a public place, attacking random people and where there has been no question of a possible terrorist motive?
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
It is bad enough trying to stop those with mental health problems being stigmatised (and would you say about someone with cancer, "oh, they are suffering from physical illness") without the Police rushing with indecent haste to state it was all down to mental health.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
Blanket assertion. I can't agree with that. However the refusal by many PC people to think about the religious basis for terrorist actions and how much of the thinking is rooted in Islam doesn't help matters. Indeed it probably leads to people making blanket assertions.
I kind of assumed Chakribarti would get a Peerage at some point, I just assumed it would be as a crossbencher, on the basis I assumed they'd like a civil liberties campaigner to get a peerage, and such a campaigner might not to appear in hock to a particular party. Given some of those Corbyn likes to defend, it doesn't gel with my image of Liberty.
The political landscape could look very different in 4 years time - we will have a much clearer idea how Brexit is turning out and the Tories could be taking the rap if it has not gone well. I also doubt May will be as popular as she is right now just because she will have had 4 years to upset people as all PMs inevitably do.
FWIW my bets will be on low turnout (possibly close to the lowest in decades) and lowest share of the vote for the 2 major parties for some time.
The real question is why the hell is Farron invisible?
Yes, I know the LDs only have 8 MPs (etc.) but what the hell is he doing?
There are ways for very minor parties to get notice. And they do better than he does.
The LDs are irrelevant to national politics. Need to focus on councils if they want to continue to exist.
But there is a huge space opening up on the centre left. Smith and Corbyn sounded like a wanky, third division Trotsky and Lenin tonight. Wholly unelectable.
A Blairite party (untainted by Iraq) could sweep to power in 2020 or 2025 when the voters get bored of the Tories (which they will).
It's amazing no-one is seizing the moment. The Lib Dems could see a remarkable resurgence if they play it right.
The LDs have yet to discover a reason to continue existing. Once they find that, they might start rebuilding as a national force. But it is a long term project and will require moving on to a different leader.
The problem is their biggest talent is Clegg - and he isn't going to make a comeback.
Maybe true. Right now we are looking at endless governance by a centre-right Tory party. Even as a rightwinger I find that a little depressing.
On the other hand, Singapore, Hong Kong, and China have done very well in similar electoral circumstances. Heh.
The Chinese Communist Party is not really centre-right, especially considering significant numbers of companies are at least partly owned by the state
One extra sadness for the day. A man has died from his injuries post-Nice. His wife and son were killed in the attack. His now-orphaned daughter remains in hospital.
Jeez. That puts things in perspective. What a tragedy.
The White Rabbit - "Between fifty and seventy people are killed each year by those with mental health problems."
I am not saying people with mental health problems do not kill - they clearly do.
My question was where has there been any other example in the past 12 months where someone with mental illness has gone on a killing spree in a public place, attacking random people and where there has been no question of a possible terrorist motive?
I'm not aware there has been any terrorist-related attack that involved more than one death either.
Edit: but that's not really the point, evidently radicalisation involves the target funnelling their energies into a different type of output, namely mass violence.
We can treat both the mental health issues, *and* the radicalisation.
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
You've obviously put your jackboots in safe storage, for a while at least.
Absolutely no idea what you are talking about, presumably labelling me as some sort of Nazi?
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Perhaps you should get out more.
Or perhaps you should meet more politicians.
I'm picky, but even so, unavoidably know far too many for comfort in my bubble.
Ok so that's cool. How many of the ones you know are talentless? And if the answer is non-zero how does it feel for talentless people to be running the country while the likes of us hugely talented folk just get to argue on internet chat rooms?
Now that is an interesting point, Mr EPG, and one which I have been mulling for some weeks. I have been here since 2007 and I think that, taken in the round, the consensus on PB is usually wrong. Just take three major events, 2010 GE, 2015 GE and 2016 Referendum. PB consensus got each wrong.
If one were to be looking for a betting strategy, I fancy one might do worse, than come on here listen carefully to see which way the majority of the denizens are blowing and then bet on the opposite.
Usual caveats apply; DYOR, the opinions of some are possibly worth more than others, some posters are pushing their own book etc..
This site was a seething bed of lefties when I first started reading it. PB has always ebbed and flowed that way.
Mr. M, You will forgive me if I cannot remember when you first arrived on the site. However, whilst I agree that the political shade of opinion on here does shift over time, I think my premise that the PB consensus is usually wrong holds.
We've changed commenting systems a few times, not always for the better. I started reading back in 2005/6 when it was peak Sion Simon. Was introduced to the site by my beloved and much missed Jenny.
Completly agree that PB, in the round, is always wrong. There are just a few savvy individuals. However, in this case, I'm feeling confident that Labour are doomed .
I'd say that, if anything, the PB consensus - like the polling (no coincidence) - has generally erred: in expecting too much from the "leftwing/progressive" vote
e.g. the PB consensus was (with noble exceptions) that the Tories would get a small plurality in 2015. In the end the Tories got a majority.
The PB consensus was that REMAIN would narrowly triumph, in the end LEAVE narrowly won.
Conclusion: PB's collective opinion simply follows - or sometimes guides - the polls and the bookies. Recently these have all under-estimated the rightwing/populist tendency.
I agree with the thesis, but would argue it's more the political consensus - polls, bookies, papers, personal contacts etc. It's as divorced from the real world as the political elite in Westminster
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
Desperate stuff.
It won't be too long before we have left the EU and eurofanatics such as yourself will have to make the case for rejoining with no opt-outs, vetos or rebates.
I think you are being wildly optimistic about how Brexit will look once we have actually finished with the phony war and actually left but time will tell. Believing Brexit was an economic mistake does not make someone a "eurofanatic", again, only in your fevered imagination.
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Except that she will have got precisely no-one to vote for her and yet has power over the laws which govern us. It is as offensive to democracy as having an unelected EU bureaucrat bossing us about. And it is something we can do something about.
Baubles should not give one a role in the legislature.
She got to where she is because she really really wanted to. Nothing undemocratic about her. Or Mark Zuckerberg.
She then gets rewarded with a gong. And becomes part of the legislature. OK but then between her and Dickie Attenbrough there's not much to choose. Blame the system.
Attenborough has immense knowledge and has contributed to society. Chakrabati is an idiot who has not.
'O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.'
Spot on, it's the new excuse and was used in Germany within the last couple of weeks. Pure coincidence the murderer was a Muslim..
Far better to pin the blame on mental health - that spreads the blame far more effectively....
Well sadly the mentally ill are an easy target. Vile that 'liberal' minded people should use them in this way though.
Yes, so you can convert them into Swiss Francs and Dollars if Jezza gets anywhere near power. Their Sterling value will soar, which will be some small solace as we all contemplate the economic Stalingrad we are faced with in Britain.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
I'm going by global polls of Muslims, by Pew and others, which show deep rooted antagonism to anything we consider remotely liberal and western.
Let us slowly constrict their ability to practise their faith, so they leave, peacefully. This can be done. The situation is not hopeless. We have to be imaginative, and bold.
The nice liberal Muslims are VERY welcome to stay, of course.
I don't think that makes them your enemy or responsible for terrorism. You just disagree with them about politics so. Section 28 was law 15 years ago, much tougher laws in our parents' time. And of course you think they are too left-wing in other ways, e.g. Labour Party support, so it is not just a story of our unalloyed modern liberalism versus their backward reaction!
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
In any event, it does not bear any sort of logical scrutiny: if mental illness was the real driver of these stabbings, why are we not seeing mentally ill Christians or Hindus or Buddhists carrying out similar attacks? The fact that the perpetrators appear to have a common religious background might just be an influencing factor.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
I'm going by global polls of Muslims, by Pew and others, which show deep rooted antagonism to anything we consider remotely liberal and western.
Let us slowly constrict their ability to practise their faith, so they leave, peacefully. This can be done. The situation is not hopeless. We have to be imaginative, and bold.
The nice liberal Muslims are VERY welcome to stay, of course.
That doesn't sound very liberal. I agree that the problems aren't just a matter of violence but forcing people to leave the country because they are socially conservative?
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
I'm going by global polls of Muslims, by Pew and others, which show deep rooted antagonism to anything we consider remotely liberal and western.
Let us slowly constrict their ability to practise their faith, so they leave, peacefully. This can be done. The situation is not hopeless. We have to be imaginative, and bold.
The nice liberal Muslims are VERY welcome to stay, of course.
I don't think that makes them your enemy or responsible for terrorism. You just disagree with them about politics so. Section 28 was law 15 years ago, much tougher laws in our parents' time. And of course you think they are too left-wing in other ways, e.g. Labour Party support, so it is not just a story of our unalloyed modern liberalism versus their backward reaction!
Yeah, gay rights are a relatively new thing. The same can't be said for women's rights, and treatment of apostates.
@FrancisUrquhart - "From memory, there has definitely been at least one more just like this in the past few months, even nutter just attacked people in a town centre.
Bit busy this second to go digging as I can't remember location."
No worries, it is not exactly a great Thursday night thing to check on random attacks in town centres.
Yes, so you can convert them into Swiss Francs and Dollars if Jezza gets anywhere near power. Their Sterling value will soar, which will be some small solace as we all contemplate the economic Stalingrad we are faced with in Britain.
If Corbyn gets in, half the country will have left for Australia, most of the other half will leave too after a year or two of forced nationalisations, 90% tax rates and daily strikes and Sharia Law awareness weeks. The only people left in the UK will be in Camden, Islington, Newham, Brighton, Glasgow and Manchester!
Re Chakrabati: I have always thought of her as a ninny. She did no thinking at all when at Liberty on how to maintain human rights during a time of terrorism threats and her support for such liberties as freedom of speech was always very qualified. So I was not surprised to find her taking Corbyn's shilling nor at her producing an execrable report on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. A hugely overrated individual lacking good judgment.
This article skewers her very effectively. It's not the first to have done so. Sadly, the talentless and unscrupulous rise to the top like scum on water.
While not disagreeing with your general point, politics nevertheless remains one of the more egalitarian vocations.
You (one) wants to be a politician? Go for it. All you need is people to vote for you.
I don't think (m)any politicians are talentless.
Perhaps you should get out more.
Or perhaps you should meet more politicians.
I'm picky, but even so, unavoidably know far too many for comfort in my bubble.
Ok so that's cool. How many of the ones you know are talentless? And if the answer is non-zero how does it feel for talentless people to be running the country while the likes of us hugely talented folk just get to argue on internet chat rooms?
Talentless is a bit all or nothing, "lacking appropriate talents" might be more appropriate. There seem to be many, outside of my acquaintance too, who seem to possess some kind of talent when they're in their cups. As you will doubtless appreciate, I'm not impressed that many such oiks have any kind of influence over the reasonable majority which includes many of the posters on here, not all of whom are hugely talented.
@FrancisUrquhart - true and a good point (although it is one, not several - sorry for the pedantry).
@Saddened - was the Jo Cox murder random? It always seemed like he targeted her specifically.
From memory, there has definitely been at least one more just like this in the past few months, even nutter just attacked people in a town centre.
Bit busy this second to go digging as I can't remember location.
The old guy stabbed in the shopping precinct?
The events in Abingdon were different because the perpetrator grabbed a knife from the shop and thus it was a much more random attack.
The events of last night in Russell Square were clearly more premeditated as he was not in the immediate vicinity of his home and it seems reasonable to assume that he had gone prepared with a knife of some sort (rather than grabbing one from a local source)
Labour Insider @Labour_Insider "After tonight's dismal performance a few of us are going to ask Owen to drop out of the leadership election" rebel MP tells @Labour_Insider
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
I'm going by global polls of Muslims, by Pew and others, which show deep rooted antagonism to anything we consider remotely liberal and western.
Let us slowly constrict their ability to practise their faith, so they leave, peacefully. This can be done. The situation is not hopeless. We have to be imaginative, and bold.
The nice liberal Muslims are VERY welcome to stay, of course.
I don't think that makes them your enemy or responsible for terrorism. You just disagree with them about politics so. Section 28 was law 15 years ago, much tougher laws in our parents' time. And of course you think they are too left-wing in other ways, e.g. Labour Party support, so it is not just a story of our unalloyed modern liberalism versus their backward reaction!
Yeah, gay rights are a relatively new thing. The same can't be said for women's rights, and treatment of apostates.
Women's right are, indeed, a cause in law that is venerable and rightly respected. As long as people share in that respect, they should be let live peacefully, mosque-goer or not. What can one say? Vindicate the law. But let's be clear - that ought to include shaming of women by entities like the Labour Party as well as unpopular religions du jour.
I wonder, if a self-proclaimed feminist were to expound her thoughts on women's rights, would PB take such a hardline stance to socially exclude dissenters or would we hear about the awful word feminism.
O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.
Still, I can see why this would be a potential nightmare for all those who are anti-Trump - an American gets killed in London by a (probably) Muslim youth. It would hit all the themes of the Trump campaign.
The lies we are telling ourselves about Russell Square are really quite impressive.
Given that 5% at most of the population is Islamic, it's amazing I was personally able to guess the killer was Islamic. Which he was.
Not everyone who is a muslim is a terrorist, just like in the 70's not everyone who was a lefty was a terrorist.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening. But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
Young men are also disproportionately implicated. It would be grotesque to say men were the enemy.
Islam is the enemy. It just IS. They say it, and they mean it. Why deny it. Pff.
No Muslim ever said it to me. Your problem is that you are taking Isis as more representative than Muslims you meet and talk to.
I'm going by global polls of Muslims, by Pew and others, which show deep rooted antagonism to anything we consider remotely liberal and western.
Let us slowly constrict their ability to practise their faith, so they leave, peacefully. This can be done. The situation is not hopeless. We have to be imaginative, and bold.
The nice liberal Muslims are VERY welcome to stay, of course.
That doesn't sound very liberal. I agree that the problems aren't just a matter of violence but forcing people to leave the country because they are socially conservative?
Socially conservative? You really have no clue about how illiberal a lot of mainstream Islamic thinking really is.
Labour Insider @Labour_Insider "After tonight's dismal performance a few of us are going to ask Owen to drop out of the leadership election" rebel MP tells @Labour_Insider
It is funny reading the interwebs, social meeja and the MSM to see how few people actually support Corbyn when compared with the population at large. The depth of feeling he produces in his supporters is not at all reflected in a breath of feeling among voters. I mean we all only get one vote, May only needs to engender enough interest in voters to do that simple act of voting for a Tory MP and rather than getting them to spend the previous two months attending rallies with other echo chamber members where they decry Labour until dawn.
Women's right are, indeed, a cause in law that is venerable and rightly respected. As long as people share in that respect, they should be let live peacefully, mosque-goer or not. What can one say? Vindicate the law. But let's be clear - that ought to include shaming of women by entities like the Labour Party as well as unpopular religions du jour.
I wonder, if a self-proclaimed feminist were to expound her thoughts on women's rights, would PB take such a hardline stance to socially exclude dissenters or would we hear about the awful word feminism.
I think the discussion wasn't limited to Britain, so what our laws say are only a small part.
People can say what they like below the line here, as long as they are within the rules.
Labour Insider @Labour_Insider "After tonight's dismal performance a few of us are going to ask Owen to drop out of the leadership election" rebel MP tells @Labour_Insider
If they cannot beat Corbyn but won't split, they may as well shut up.
TwistedFireStopper Posts: 1,685 8:40PM murali_s said: » show previous quotes
Of course not but it was the key driver is 'Leave' winning. You need to get out more...
It genuinely wasn't for all of the people I know who noted leave. Admittedly, immigration was an issue for some, but it wasn't the "darkies", as you so elegantly put it that were the key issue. Obviously, in your fuckwitted mind, anyone who wasn't keen on the EU is a racist little Englander. That says far more about you than me.
In your circle of friends maybe but as I said you need to get out more - immigration was the KEY and ONLY issue for the masses who voted for "Leave".
"The masses" FFS. What's it like, hating and despising the majority of your politically active fellow citizens? Does it not make your head hurt at all?
They were told a lie and fell for it by the class of manipulative and self-serving politicians.
The Brexit shit will hit the fan soon and it will be the masses that suffer the most sadly.
What hold does the political aspect of the EU have over you? You love the flag? Is it the anthem? The layers of bureaucracy? What is it? Forget the trade, that will be sorted out. Forget accords and agreements on defence, law, health and safety, even human rights, that'll be fine as well. What do you need from the EU?
One of the interesting aspects of Brexit is the hardcore of EU-lovers it has unearthed. People who don't just respect the EU, or desire its advantages, but actively love the Federalist, EU-wide ideal.
It's just 5-10% of the populace, but they really believe. They should have been noisier.
I stumbled across a crowd funding campaign which intends to sue pro Brexit politicians. They have raised £150k. The Eurofanatics are truly despicable. It has been very very enjoyable watching them have meltdowns.
Remainers having "meltdowns"are, I would suggest, largely a figment of your imagination.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
Relax. It'll be neither as good nor as bad as the fringes of either side want.
Yes, so you can convert them into Swiss Francs and Dollars if Jezza gets anywhere near power. Their Sterling value will soar, which will be some small solace as we all contemplate the economic Stalingrad we are faced with in Britain.
If Corbyn gets in, half the country will have left for Australia, most of the other half will leave too after a year or two of forced nationalisations, 90% tax rates and daily strikes and Sharia Law awareness weeks. The only people left in the UK will be in Camden, Islington, Newham, Brighton, Glasgow and Manchester!
Comments
The difference here, I believe is that the authorities thought it was (or think it is) a terrorist inspired attack, thus we got the media blackout and the strange statements. A young Muslim man randomly stabbing people and then waiting around to be shot has all the hallmarks as the ones in Germany.
They definitely briefed the media along those lines. Compare the reporting to gang stabbing that occurred on the same evening.
However, perhaps in this case he was just a nutter.
'O/T, re the London stabbings, it seems like those with mental health problems are the new group to be thrown under the bus so that we can all convince ourselves that there is no terrorism / radicalisation aspect.'
Spot on, it's the new excuse and was used in Germany within the last couple of weeks.
Pure coincidence the murderer was a Muslim..
If he would just concentrate exclusively on immigration, jobs, the economy, and relentlessly attack Hillary Clinton and her record, then he will win in November.
He has to beat one person - Hillary Clinton. Every day, news cycle, news bulletin that reports him picking fights with his own party's politicians, families of dead soldiers, or anything else at all, makes him lose more ground to Hillary.
Baubles should not give one a role in the legislature.
If you adhere to an ideology or belief then that is a symptom not a cause and that symptom can be anything.
Where you are right is when that cause or belief is of a violent intent. Such as Islam. Or WHUFC.
Plenty of people are, rather inconvenientlyfor people like your good self, going to seek to hold Brexiters to account for what transpires over coming years. Enjoy your gloating whilst you can, it very well may not last too long!
She then gets rewarded with a gong. And becomes part of the legislature. OK but then between her and Dickie Attenbrough there's not much to choose. Blame the system.
I am sure some Iraqi is blaming all Brits in the same way, asking why they and not French or Germans or Swedes decided to rip up his country.
My point was not to say we don't have a radicalisation problem. We clearly do. Part of that is clearly inspiring other people to commit acts of terror, rather than violence.
The only thing I object to is the idea that if mental health is the cause, then islamic radicalisation can't be. That idea is circulated by those who want to make out the only cause is mental health, and those who think it is irrelevant as the cause is radicalisation.
I'm sorry but that last paragraph is just wishful thinking, particularly when no outlet is linking it to terrorism. It is far more likely that it provokes Trump into making another outlandish statement that pushes his numbers even further downward.
The issue is that extremist religion or ideology can encourage those acts, thus the chances that they are terrorists are many times greater than normal.
If 1% of muslims are inclined to such acts then the greater their numbers the greater the chances of those acts happening.
But 99% are not, and here is your moral problem.
Also Left wing terrorism collapsed after the end of the Soviet Union, but there is no guarantee that Saudi Arabia will go the way of the communists.
The papers haven't even gone out yet so I would take that one with a pinch of salt.
I've taken a cue from PB and intend to waste a bunch on an overpriced holiday.
I hear what you are saying. The point I was trying to make though is that people with mental illness face enough stigma as it is today without having the authorities blast out messages when we have these sorts of attacks that "don't worry people, it is just the crazies, not anything to do with ISIS" when they simply do not have all the evidence just because they are scared if the public focuses on a possible Islamic terrorist angle.
It is really quite disturbing the extent to which we will look for any cause for terrorists' acts other than the one which seems to motivate them.
You can say that Islam is an army with a religion, much like Prussia was an army with a state.
Donald Trump holds views that are antithetical to our values not only as Republicans, but as Americans. The rhetoric he espouses –from racist slander to misogynistic taunts– is not consistent with our conservative principles, and his repeated mocking of the disabled and belittling of the sacrifices made by prisoners of war, Gold Star families, and Purple Heart recipients is not only bad politics, but absurdly cruel.
https://www.facebook.com/HarvardGOP/posts/1190758900944693
There is a fundamental clash between a lot of Islamic thinking and the way we currently live in the West. And it is not up to us to change to accommodate their outdated thinking.
Islam needs to undergo the equivalent of their Reformation. They are the ones who have to go through the pain/process of their own Enlightenment. They have to take on and defeat the extremists from within.
Unless and until that happens, Islam will be tainted by those who use their 'faith' as a justification for murder, rape and countless other crimes.
I don't know how quickly this can happen or how it can be encouraged. But Islam has to reform itself. We can't do it for them. We can't defeat them by trying to impose our belief systems on them. We can't defeat these twisted ideas with bombs.
But we can refuse to tolerate behaviours that run contrary to our values. We can insist that our laws are followed. We can insist that all communities are open to our criminal justice and related systems.
Multiculturalism has failed all communities in the UK. We need to have a fully open society. We must not tolerate enclaves or no go areas.
I am not saying people with mental health problems do not kill - they clearly do.
My question was where has there been any other example in the past 12 months where someone with mental illness has gone on a killing spree in a public place, attacking random people and where there has been no question of a possible terrorist motive?
Party members
Corbyn: 49%
Smith: 51%
General public
Corbyn: 38%
Smith: 62%
It won't be too long before we have left the EU and eurofanatics such as yourself will have to make the case for rejoining with no opt-outs, vetos or rebates.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-thomas-mair-asked-for-mental-health-treatment-day/
https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/761223557502435328
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/831553/man-accused-of-brutal-poundland-murder-recently-released-from-mental-health-clinic/
Edit: but that's not really the point, evidently radicalisation involves the target funnelling their energies into a different type of output, namely mass violence.
We can treat both the mental health issues, *and* the radicalisation.
"Ok, Ok...I pick the less shit Welshy one."
@Saddened - was the Jo Cox murder random? It always seemed like he targeted her specifically.
Yes, so you can convert them into Swiss Francs and Dollars if Jezza gets anywhere near power. Their Sterling value will soar, which will be some small solace as we all contemplate the economic Stalingrad we are faced with in Britain.
In what sense is there an "insider information" regime for gamblers?
There is zero "clamour" in the country.
Bit busy this second to go digging as I can't remember location.
Bit busy this second to go digging as I can't remember location."
No worries, it is not exactly a great Thursday night thing to check on random attacks in town centres.
But could we at least drop the word "nutter"?
The events of last night in Russell Square were clearly more premeditated as he was not in the immediate vicinity of his home and it seems reasonable to assume that he had gone prepared with a knife of some sort (rather than grabbing one from a local source)
The two crimes are very different
YouGov (04/08/16) - Snap poll post Labour Leadership Debate
Party members
Corbyn: 49%
Smith: 51%
General public
Corbyn: 38%
Smith: 62%
@Labour_Insider
"After tonight's dismal performance a few of us are going to ask Owen to drop out of the leadership election" rebel MP tells @Labour_Insider
I wonder, if a self-proclaimed feminist were to expound her thoughts on women's rights, would PB take such a hardline stance to socially exclude dissenters or would we hear about the awful word feminism.
Really? How much lower can they sink?
I mean we all only get one vote, May only needs to engender enough interest in voters to do that simple act of voting for a Tory MP and rather than getting them to spend the previous two months attending rallies with other echo chamber members where they decry Labour until dawn.
People can say what they like below the line here, as long as they are within the rules.