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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    ydoethur said:

    <

    Could I refer you to the book of John Chapter 4, where Jesus discussed with the Samaritan woman?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

    6th Century Meccans were pagans, with a number of gods and deities, as well as there being significant Jewish and Christian communities. Indeed Allah is the name assosciated with the moon god, and chosen by early Muslims. Hence the significance of the cresent moon in Islam, and the phases of the moon in defining ramadan etc.

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    Following his conquest of Mecca, Mohammad smashed all the 300 pagan idols in the main square and expelled at the point of the sword all those who would not convert to Islam. The trouble in Islam is that IS are actually true to the original Islam.

    Yes, and I'm clearly getting muddled, although actually that passage from John wouldn't on its own rule out polytheism.

    I will do some more reading (when I get back, as next week is all about the Holocaust).
    I told you the Samaritans were and are NOT polytheists!
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016
    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    Cyclefree said:

    To the Holy Mountain by William Dalrymple is also a very interesting read about the religions of the Middle East. He explores all the areas which are now drenched in blood and the history and current state of Christianity in its ancestral home. Written some time ago. But very well worth reading.

    At one point he finds a church in I think Eastern Turkey or possibly Syria where there are (were, I should say) a few worshippers still worshipping in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

    Thank you, I will check it out.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    I think he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.

    Yes, Hilary will start with the "Millionaire Donald Trump" stuff again which was v effective in needling him.

    To be honest I think the approving comment about Russia and the hacking today are a bigger error.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574

    ydoethur said:

    <

    Could I refer you to the book of John Chapter 4, where Jesus discussed with the Samaritan woman?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

    6th Century Meccans were pagans, with a number of gods and deities, as well as there being significant Jewish and Christian communities. Indeed Allah is the name assosciated with the moon god, and chosen by early Muslims. Hence the significance of the cresent moon in Islam, and the phases of the moon in defining ramadan etc.

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    Following his conquest of Mecca, Mohammad smashed all the 300 pagan idols in the main square and expelled at the point of the sword all those who would not convert to Islam. The trouble in Islam is that IS are actually true to the original Islam.

    Yes, and I'm clearly getting muddled, although actually that passage from John wouldn't on its own rule out polytheism.

    I will do some more reading (when I get back, as next week is all about the Holocaust).
    I told you the Samaritans were and are NOT polytheists!
    Yes and I have accepted that. I was making a highly pedantic point about the passage from John, bearing in mind Roman soldiers who were legally obliged to be polytheistic are reported saying similar sorts of things.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016
    Dromedary said:

    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)

    Why 12 months? (Genuine question.)

    I misread it at first as twelve minutes, which seemed a little abrupt.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    <

    Could I refer you to the book of John Chapter 4, where Jesus discussed with the Samaritan woman?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

    6th Century Meccans were pagans, with a number of gods and deities, as well as there being significant Jewish and Christian communities. Indeed Allah is the name assosciated with the moon god, and chosen by early Muslims. Hence the significance of the cresent moon in Islam, and the phases of the moon in defining ramadan etc.

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    Following his conquest of Mecca, Mohammad smashed all the 300 pagan idols in the main square and expelled at the point of the sword all those who would not convert to Islam. The trouble in Islam is that IS are actually true to the original Islam.

    Yes, and I'm clearly getting muddled, although actually that passage from John wouldn't on its own rule out polytheism.

    I will do some more reading (when I get back, as next week is all about the Holocaust).
    I told you the Samaritans were and are NOT polytheists!
    Yes and I have accepted that. I was making a highly pedantic point about the passage from John, bearing in mind Roman soldiers who were legally obliged to be polytheistic are reported saying similar sorts of things.
    Religious beliefs[edit]

    * There is one God, YHWH, the same God recognized by the Hebrew prophets.
    * The Torah was given by God to Moses.
    * Mount Gerizim, not Jerusalem, is the one true sanctuary chosen by Israel's God.
    * Many Samaritans believe that at the end of days, the dead will be resurrected by Taheb, a restorer (possibly a prophet, some say Moses).
    * Paradise (heaven).
    * The priests are the interpreters of the law and the keepers of tradition; scholars are secondary to the priesthood.
    * The authority of post-Torah sections of the Tanakh, and classical Jewish rabbinical works (the Talmud, comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara) is rejected.
    * They have a significantly different version of the Ten Commandments (for example, their 10th commandment is about the sanctity of Mount Gerizim).
    * The Samaritans retained the Ancient Hebrew script, the High Priesthood, animal sacrifices, the eating of lambs at Passover, and the celebration of Aviv in spring as the New Year. Yom Teruah (the biblical name for Rosh Hashanah), at the beginning of Tishrei, is not considered a New Year as it is in Judaism.
    * The Samaritan Pentateuch differs from the Masoretic Text as well. Some differences are doctrinal: for example, the Samaritan Torah explicitly states that Mount Gerizim is "the place that God has chosen" for the Temple, as opposed to the Jewish Torah that refers to "the place that God will choose". Other differences are minor and seem more or less accidental.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally having caught up with previous threads while I have wifi everyone missed the pun they could have made over Fireman Sam and the Quran.

    He was originally a Welsh language character, Sam Tan (lit. 'Sam the Fire' - you know how these things go).

    I once read about a Welsh village that had two people called Ernie - one a travel agent and the other an undertaker.

    So that was Ernie the Journey and Ernie the Final Journey.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    Alistair said:

    To be honest I think the approving comment about Russia and the hacking today are a bigger error.

    Why? If Hillary tries to make refighting the Cold War a priority rather than tackling Islamist terrorism she will walk straight into Trump's trap.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016
    @Sunil_Prasannan

    What is the significance of Mount Gerizim? That is, for what reason is it so important to them?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,255


    I see the fool from the Vatican thinks this is a war but nothing to do with religion.

    I have to say that I find it disappointing, to put it mildly, how feeble the Pope is in speaking up about the persecution of Christians in their homelands, indeed in the region in which it was born. If the Pope won't speak up for Syrian Christians who will?

    I can't help feeling that his predecessor, for all his faults, would have been more robust about the threats which Christians face.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    kle4 said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.
    Even discounting that, they may suffer electorally for judicially correct decisions as opponents play as tougher on crime and the like.
    While we of course have no problems with judges playing politics :)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,033
    Miss Cyclefree, the Pope's an idiot. When the Hebdo killing occurred he said if someone insulted his mother, he'd punch them in the face [or similar].

    We need people willing to call a spade a spade.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    ydoethur said:

    Dromedary said:

    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)

    Why 12 months? (Genuine question.)

    I misread it at first as twelve minutes, which seemed a little abrupt.
    I'm guessing there was no real reason behind it.
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    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,033
    Welcome back, Mrs. Erdleigh :)

    Not much has happened in your absence :p
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016

    Miss Cyclefree, the Pope's an idiot. When the Hebdo killing occurred he said if someone insulted his mother, he'd punch them in the face [or similar].

    We need people willing to call a spade a spade.

    Wasn't it Roy Hattersley who famously said 'you should never be afraid to call racism for what it is. Where I come from we always call a spade a spade.'

    For some reason it didn't go down as well as he had expected with his largely Afro-Carribean audience...
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    ydoethur said:

    @Sunil_Prasannan

    What is the significance of Mount Gerizim? That is, for what reason is it so important to them?

    Wiki says:

    The Samaritans believe that Mount Gerizim was the original Holy Place of Israel from the time that Joshua conquered Israel. The major issue between Rabbinical Jews (Jews who follow post-exile rabbinical interpretations of Judaism, who are the vast majority of Jews today) and Samaritans has always been the location of the chosen place to worship God; Jerusalem according to the Jewish faith or Mount Gerizim according to the Samaritan faith.[5]

    Joshua, of course, successfully led the Israelites into Canaan after Moses' death.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back!
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Apologies if already suggested/asked, but why can't Trump issue last year's return?
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    Welcome back, Mrs. Erdleigh :)

    Not much has happened in your absence :p

    Thanks. I have been lurking, it's been so quiet hasn't it.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Cyclefree said:

    To the Holy Mountain by William Dalrymple is also a very interesting read about the religions of the Middle East. He explores all the areas which are now drenched in blood and the history and current state of Christianity in its ancestral home. Written some time ago. But very well worth reading.

    At one point he finds a church in I think Eastern Turkey or possibly Syria where there are (were, I should say) a few worshippers still worshipping in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

    Certainly there used to be Aramaic churches in Iraq prior to the Gulf Wars
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288
    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Indeed; also the Catalan independence parties have gone backwards in the last two general elections (December and last month), so it's by no means clear there is a majority.

    The plan - clearly - is to provoke a response by Madrid, that gets mild Catalan nationalists (who want more powers but not independence) on board with the independence minded lot.

    I don't know if it will be a success or not. I would be very surprised if it got off the ground without a referendum.

    The plan - from about a year ago - was for the government in Madrid to say "of course, you can have a referendum on independence, but first we must amend the constitution to allow such a vote." The new constitution would then take four or five years, and then Catalonia could have an independence referendum in c. 2023.

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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.
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    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dromedary said:

    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)

    Why 12 months? (Genuine question.)

    I misread it at first as twelve minutes, which seemed a little abrupt.
    I'm guessing there was no real reason behind it.
    Gives time to disentangle their national defence structures from NATO command and vice-versa.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,858
    edited July 2016
    Alistair said:

    @DavidL: he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.

    Yes, Hilary will start with the "Millionaire Donald Trump" stuff again which was v effective in needling him.

    To be honest I think the approving comment about Russia and the hacking today are a bigger error.

    I suspect his tax return is complicated. Trump would be the kind of candidate who could present tax efficiency as a virtue. But if there are all sorts of special tax vehicles and aggressive tax avoidance schemes it will give plenty of scope for journalists to investigate and opponents to challenge. This keeps public attention on his tax affairs, which he probably doesn't want if he's claiming to represent Mr and Mrs Middle America, who are struggling to make rent each month. The point of releasing your tax return is to say you have done it and no-one will then be interested in it.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
  • Options

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    I suspect a lot of it is because other candidates fear their financial backers pulling out if they are mired in controversy.

    Trump is funding himself so dosent give a 4X.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,284
    Speedy said:

    So far so good for Trump:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

    He got a 6 point bounce compared with Romney's 4 point one, and his lead is bigger than what Romney ever managed to get.

    Lets see what Hillary can do, last time Obama got a 2 point bounce.

    Romney got a bigger bounce from the first debate then the convention, in 2012 Bill Clinton's speech provided much of Obama's bounce. Personally I expect Trump and Hillary to be neck and neck by the beginning of next week
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dromedary said:

    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)

    Why 12 months? (Genuine question.)

    I misread it at first as twelve minutes, which seemed a little abrupt.
    I'm guessing there was no real reason behind it.
    Gives time to disentangle their national defence structures from NATO command and vice-versa.
    Yeah, but specifically twelve months?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MTimT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    To the Holy Mountain by William Dalrymple is also a very interesting read about the religions of the Middle East. He explores all the areas which are now drenched in blood and the history and current state of Christianity in its ancestral home. Written some time ago. But very well worth reading.

    At one point he finds a church in I think Eastern Turkey or possibly Syria where there are (were, I should say) a few worshippers still worshipping in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

    Certainly there used to be Aramaic churches in Iraq prior to the Gulf Wars
    Sadly at least one of the Aramaic villages in Syria was captured by AQ linked fighters with predictable results:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415586/Syrian-rebels-attack-historic-Christian-village-residents-speak-language-Jesus.html
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    I was born in Newent. That was the only reason I asked. So we're neither of us 'proper' Foresters!

    Beautiful place though.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    I was born in Newent. That was the only reason I asked.
    It's a pretty little town. Used to pass through as part of my commute into Cheltenham. Mind you, pretty much all the towns are pretty, bar the three Forest ones - and even they can be picturesque in places.

    As you say, Forest folk regard us with a certain amount of suspicion. We're 'posh'.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    Wasn't Tolkien inspired by the Forest of Dean? It certainly feels remote.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    RoyalBlue said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    Wasn't Tolkien inspired by the Forest of Dean? It certainly feels remote.
    JK Rowling certainly was. That's why she set the first big set piece of the last Harry Potter there, although she was deliberately vague about which part (the film was shot near Clearwell).
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    I was born in Newent. That was the only reason I asked.
    It's a pretty little town. Used to pass through as part of my commute into Cheltenham. Mind you, pretty much all the towns are pretty, bar the three Forest ones - and even they can be picturesque in places.

    As you say, Forest folk regard us with a certain amount of suspicion. We're 'posh'.
    Cue jokes about tails and wool :smiley:
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    RoyalBlue said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    Wasn't Tolkien inspired by the Forest of Dean? It certainly feels remote.
    Yes, there's a view that he was influenced by the work he did in and around Lydney in the late twenties. There's a well known local landmark called the Puzzlewood that's particularly associated with Tolkien.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dromedary said:

    Today I learnt: a state belonging to NATO can leave at 12 months' notice. (Source: the 1949 treaty.)

    Why 12 months? (Genuine question.)

    I misread it at first as twelve minutes, which seemed a little abrupt.
    I'm guessing there was no real reason behind it.
    Gives time to disentangle their national defence structures from NATO command and vice-versa.
    Yeah, but specifically twelve months?
    Budgets, annual planning, recruitment..

    As you say, seems a sensible timescale.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    So Dr Fox, what first attracted you to Owen '£25.1 billion extra to the NHS' Smith?

    Jesting aside, it was a well pitched speech to his selectorate. He wasn't talking to the wider public, and as you say, at least there was a semblance of financial rigour to it.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    I wish I could agree. And it wouldn't be hard to have a more plausible policy line or better leadership skills than Jez. I also really want him to do well.

    But if he's to make it to the top he's got to pick his words more carefully. Remember IDS and that absolutely stupid comment about shooting Tony Blair? Three weeks later, he was gone.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    RoyalBlue said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    Wasn't Tolkien inspired by the Forest of Dean? It certainly feels remote.
    Ah, Royal Blue!

    Good to see you.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    You could say Owen Smith is François Hollande without the charisma.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    edited July 2016
    AndyJS said:

    You could say Owen Smith is François Hollande without the charisma.

    Wouldn't that basically make him Francois Hollande? Who let it not be forgotten did beat an incumbent French president for the first time in however many years?

    Edit - on checking, since Giscard's defeat in 1981.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    Good news. First trade deal since Brexit, albeit spans the vote - looks like George Eustice had a significant hand in this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/usa-set-to-import-british-beef-and-lamb-for-the-first-time-in-20/
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RoyalBlue said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?
    Just west of the Forest proper. Walk my dogs there every day. I'm about six miles from Coleford if that helps.
    Wasn't Tolkien inspired by the Forest of Dean? It certainly feels remote.
    Substantially (and topically) it seems he was largely inspired by his experience on the Somme:

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/opinion/sunday/how-jrr-tolkien-found-mordor-on-the-western-front.html?_r=0

    For those PB military history buffs who haven't seen it, could I recommend "The Some from both sidesof the wire" as a fascinating and rarely seen exploration of infantry war at tactical level, and its developments on both sides over the battle:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07lst9b/episodes/player
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    So Dr Fox, what first attracted you to Owen '£25.1 billion extra to the NHS' Smith?

    Jesting aside, it was a well pitched speech to his selectorate. He wasn't talking to the wider public, and as you say, at least there was a semblance of financial rigour to it.
    But as a speaker Owen moves as a Mesolithic Boulder. ;)
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    To be honest I think the approving comment about Russia and the hacking today are a bigger error.

    Why? If Hillary tries to make refighting the Cold War a priority rather than tackling Islamist terrorism she will walk straight into Trump's trap.
    Do you think encouraging Russia will play well with the Republican base?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    Well, it worked for the Remain campai-..

    Oh.. Wait a minute.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    Quick question for an ardent Kipper... How would you vote at a snap GE if Labour were calling for a second EU referendum?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    To be honest I think the approving comment about Russia and the hacking today are a bigger error.

    Why? If Hillary tries to make refighting the Cold War a priority rather than tackling Islamist terrorism she will walk straight into Trump's trap.
    Do you think encouraging Russia will play well with the Republican base?
    Remember that aside during his conference speech when he spoke about defending the LGBTQ community - "As a Republican it is so nice to hear you cheering for what I just said."
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2016

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    In November he claimed he knew Putin very well.

    Today he claimed he didn't know Putin at all.

    If that's standing your ground I'd hate to see if he did a U-turn.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130
    Alistair said:

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    In November he claimed he knew Putin very well.

    Today he claimed he didn't know Putin at all.

    If that's standing your ground I'd hate to see if he did a U-turn.
    Trump, like most supposedly 'transformative' candidates, is actually a lot more regular than many people think, because they discount the times they are, in fact, perfectly like other politicians.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,148

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
    I’ve wondered about that. Like Nice etc that was Italian until about 120 years ago!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    In November he claimed he knew Putin very well.

    Today he claimed he didn't know Putin at all.

    If that's standing your ground I'd hate to see if he did a U-turn.
    Trump, like most supposedly 'transformative' candidates, is actually a lot more regular than many people think, because they discount the times they are, in fact, perfectly like other politicians.
    Trump is transformative for challenging the sacred cows of American politics, but as you say, in other respects he's a regular politician, albeit one who is demonstrating many campaigning innovations for the social media age.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    edited July 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
    I’ve wondered about that. Like Nice etc that was Italian until about 120 years ago!
    If they get that back, we should have a word with France regarding the Treaty of Troyes. :p
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    In November he claimed he knew Putin very well.

    Today he claimed he didn't know Putin at all.

    If that's standing your ground I'd hate to see if he did a U-turn.
    Trump, like most supposedly 'transformative' candidates, is actually a lot more regular than many people think, because they discount the times they are, in fact, perfectly like other politicians.
    It is amazing how wilfully blind people after to Trump's foibles. I get liking Trump, that's ok, but flat out stating he's doing the opposite of what he has done is seriously throwing me for a loop.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    Alistair said:

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    In November he claimed he knew Putin very well.

    Today he claimed he didn't know Putin at all.

    If that's standing your ground I'd hate to see if he did a U-turn.
    Maybe he stands his own ground and asks his chauffeur to perform the u-turns?
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016
    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,148
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
    I’ve wondered about that. Like Nice etc that was Italian until about 120 years ago!
    If they get that back, we should have a word with France regarding the Treaty of Troyes. :p
    The English could try and get Calais back, I suppose. It’s full of people who orefer being British to French, anyway!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
    I’ve wondered about that. Like Nice etc that was Italian until about 120 years ago!
    If they get that back, we should have a word with France regarding the Treaty of Troyes. :p
    The English could try and get Calais back, I suppose. It’s full of people who orefer being British to French, anyway!
    Well, if the Treaty is enforced they will get their wish without ever having to move another inch :D
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    Do the demands for Catalonian Independence include the part that was given and incorporated in France in 1659 ??
    I’ve wondered about that. Like Nice etc that was Italian until about 120 years ago!
    If they get that back, we should have a word with France regarding the Treaty of Troyes. :p
    The English could try and get Calais back, I suppose. It’s full of people who orefer being British to French, anyway!
    Well, if the Treaty is enforced they will get their wish without ever having to move another inch :D
    Genius. Theresa May should suggest this as 'a deal that works for the UK and the EU'.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,255
    ydoethur said:

    Miss Cyclefree, the Pope's an idiot. When the Hebdo killing occurred he said if someone insulted his mother, he'd punch them in the face [or similar].

    We need people willing to call a spade a spade.

    Wasn't it Roy Hattersley who famously said 'you should never be afraid to call racism for what it is. Where I come from we always call a spade a spade.'

    For some reason it didn't go down as well as he had expected with his largely Afro-Carribean audience...
    Roy Hattersley was one of those cowards who refused to stand up for free speech when the fatwa was issued against Salman Rushdie. Far too keen to appease his constituents. Willing to call out racism but not violent bullying or censorship or calls for murder, apparently.

    There is a direct link between the appeasement then to the killings of cartoonists last year. The lesson the Islamists learnt all too well was that violence - or its threat - worked on lily-livered so-called bloody liberals.

    Jack Straw can be added to the Hall of Shame on this. As can the Pope for his stupid remark last year.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,114
    RobD said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    Quick question for an ardent Kipper... How would you vote at a snap GE if Labour were calling for a second EU referendum?
    Not an ardent Kipper - if Labour calls for a second EU referendum a lot of Wales and North England will have UKIP MPs on election night...

    There are few times when you look at Corbyn and think he's the best option Labour has. Then someone else goes for the London vote and you think REALLY. Do you really know that little about your voters...
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,408
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    The regional parliament of Catalonia on Wednesday approved a resolution to begin seceding from Spain, in open defiance of the Constitutional Court. The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2016/07/27/catalan-parliament-votes-to-start-separating-from-spain_e90f49c2-7670-487f-ae07-2e2002156cc9.html

    Catexit next?

    (Back after a long break!) :-)

    Welcome back. I think they've a long way to go. They've yet to have any polling that indicates majority support for secession and they're unlikely to get a sympathetic hearing from anyone bar Sturgeon.
    Thanks. You're right no majority. I saw reference to a poll on zero hedge with figures of 48% pro independence vs 43% against. But if any region is to leave I would expect the Basques to be first.
    The polling has been steadily moving away from independence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
    No polls since 2015 in that link? What's the polling for the last 12 months?
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Conflict News
    BREAKING: #Turkey shuts down dozens of media organizations, including 45 newspapers, 16 TV stations. - @AP
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Alistair said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
    I think those voters think Obama has been the worst kind of foreign policy President, seeing him as apologizing to the world for America. I think they would welcome a President who they think will stand up for naked US interests and who will proudly proclaim American pride, regardless of whether that President has a cozy relationship with Putin or any other tinpot dictator. And I do think that that is how they would view Trump.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    Alistair said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
    To abuse a quote from Steve Jobs, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."

    Once the taboo is broken, the argument will not be favourable to those who think it's a good idea to refight the Cold War. Especially when Hillary's record after the red reset button (with the mistranslated label) is so poor.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Old Holborn
    German Police raid a Salafist mosque in Hildersheim

    https://t.co/UkOh3ZLYSC https://t.co/BGuz3QO37P
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
    To abuse a quote from Steve Jobs, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."

    Once the taboo is broken, the argument will not be favourable to those who think it's a good idea to refight the Cold War. Especially when Hillary's record after the red reset button (with the mistranslated label) is so poor.
    What do they think of a guy who claims to know someone really well a few months ago then claims to not know them today?
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    Desperate is 'Benghaaaaaaaziiiiii" every day for years.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
    To abuse a quote from Steve Jobs, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."

    Once the taboo is broken, the argument will not be favourable to those who think it's a good idea to refight the Cold War. Especially when Hillary's record after the red reset button (with the mistranslated label) is so poor.
    What do they think of a guy who claims to know someone really well a few months ago then claims to not know them today?
    His original claim that he 'got to know him well because we were both on 60 Minutes' was obviously an embellishment at the time and was one of the moments when Carly Fiorina got the better of him in the debates. I would interpret Trump's original comment to mean simply that he learnt about what makes Putin tick, with the idea that they met being left to the imagination of the listener.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    BREAKING: #Turkey shuts down dozens of media organizations, including 45 newspapers, 16 TV stations. - @AP

    Did someone mention "tinpot dictators"? Well Erdogan is showing how tinpot dictators get firmly established.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia. ''

    the progressive obsession with Putin again misses the point completely.

    Nobody likes Putin, but how many priests' throats is he slitting? How many children is he mowing down in France? How many innocent westerners is he shooting? how much indiscriminate hatred is he spreading around the world? How many Russian orthodox churches have preachers urging violence upon gullible young men?

    Putin is not our friend, not by a country mile. But right now he cannot threaten us like an enemy that for decades has been welcomed with open arms by the left.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Did someone mention "tinpot dictators"? Well Erdogan is showing how tinpot dictators get firmly established.

    The threat of an emerging islamist Turkey far outweighs anything from Russia. But of course, the left don;t want you to see that. It's the ultimate foreign policy 'look squirrel'
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Trump, meanwhile, speaking at a press conference in Florida, raised the stakes again, as he urged Russia to hack into and release Clinton’s emails from the personal server she used while she was secretary of state.

    “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said.

    “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let’s see if that happens. That will be next.”

    The Republican nominee added: “They probably have her 33,000 emails that she lost and deleted ... I hope they do ... because you’d see some beauties there.” (The guardian)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    So Dr Fox, what first attracted you to Owen '£25.1 billion extra to the NHS' Smith?

    Jesting aside, it was a well pitched speech to his selectorate. He wasn't talking to the wider public, and as you say, at least there was a semblance of financial rigour to it.
    Yes it is even more than the Brexiteers promised! ;-)

    While Jezza spouts placard slogans and platitudes, and the losing trio last summer could not lay out a sense of future direction for Labour, at least Smith is attempting to outline a future, albeit one that is not to everyones taste.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016
    taffys said:

    Did someone mention "tinpot dictators"? Well Erdogan is showing how tinpot dictators get firmly established.

    The threat of an emerging islamist Turkey far outweighs anything from Russia. But of course, the left don;t want you to see that. It's the ultimate foreign policy 'look squirrel'

    The left welcomed Islam with open arms because Christianity was the biggest impediment to the establishment of their gramascian new world order and the Muslims were exploited for votes and so they were able to claim that Christianity was just one religion among many (multiculturalism) and it helped their aim of disestablishing Christianity and driving it from the public sphere.

    Unforturtunately having taken the trojan horse within their city the left have lost control of it and discovered those within it regard them as useful idiots.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2016
    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    So far four polls have shown double digit leads and the possibility of a Tory land slide 100 seat majority, but the seats the Tories need to take for that to happen include both Newport seats and Bishop Auckland, whilst the North East and Wakes are trending towards the Tories in the long term how likely is they will gain these seats?!

    A think we need an analysis in why it is unlikely they will win a 100 seat majority considering the ones they would need to gain and as a poster said yesterday considering the different demographics of the urban vs. Rural seats.

    No party will win a 100 seat Majority again
    Discuss.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    So Dr Fox, what first attracted you to Owen '£25.1 billion extra to the NHS' Smith?

    Jesting aside, it was a well pitched speech to his selectorate. He wasn't talking to the wider public, and as you say, at least there was a semblance of financial rigour to it.
    Yes it is even more than the Brexiteers promised! ;-)

    While Jezza spouts placard slogans and platitudes, and the losing trio last summer could not lay out a sense of future direction for Labour, at least Smith is attempting to outline a future, albeit one that is not to everyones taste.
    I'd have liked it more if he'd promised to increase basic income tax rates. I have no ideological issue with a big state, but you have to widen the tax base to sustain it.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Alistair said:

    MikeK said:

    The Democrats new line is to try to link Trump to Putin. Pretty desperate I would imagine but for the MSM pumping this for all it's worth.

    And liable to badly backfire. Liberals hate Putin because he has repudiated western progressiven/social liberalism and replaced it with the values of Russian Orthodox Christianity and pride in all things Russian.

    Democrat liberals still cling to the idea that parogressivism/liberalism is self evidently the only way to run modern society and worse still that the majority concur.

    They are in for a wake up call
    Yes, I am sure 70 year old Republican voters are desperate for a president who is friendly with Russia.
    To abuse a quote from Steve Jobs, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."

    Once the taboo is broken, the argument will not be favourable to those who think it's a good idea to refight the Cold War. Especially when Hillary's record after the red reset button (with the mistranslated label) is so poor.
    There is a problem with trying to re-fight the cold war with old enemies.

    A. Russia is not a Superpower anymore, but a Great Power.
    B. Russia is not a Communist country, but a conservative-capitalist one.

    It is difficult ideologically to explain to conservatives why a country with a 10% flat tax and a church in every business, should be their enemy.

    Putin has implemented in Russia all the policies the Republican party has ever espoused and dreamed of.
    That's why most republicans are jealous of Russia's policies and leaders.

    If you want a new cold war try an islamist power, Turkey is readily available and already hostile.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    rcs1000 said:

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
    So I presume you're not too impressed with either Clinton or Trump, then?
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    rcs1000 said:

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
    So I presume you're not too impressed with either Clinton or Trump, then?
    If I were American I'd abstain. They're both terrible candidates - mediocre is far too kind.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,114
    nunu said:

    So far four polls have shown double digit leads and the possibility of a Tory land slide 100 seat majority, but the seats the Tories need to take for that to happen include both Newport seats and Bishop Auckland, whilst the North East and Wakes are trending towards the Tories in the long term how likely is they will gain these seats?!

    A think we need an analysis in why it is unlikely they will win a 100 seat majority considering the ones they would need to gain and as a poster said yesterday considering the different demographics of the urban vs. Rural seats.

    No party will win a 100 seat Majority again
    Discuss.

    Bishop Auckland would only require a small movement from Labour to UKIP for the Tories to sneak down the middle... Given UKIP + the conservatives only had 49% of the 2015 vote between them and 57% in County Durham as a whole voted LEAVE, I think its a possible Tory win..
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    John_M said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
    So I presume you're not too impressed with either Clinton or Trump, then?
    If I were American I'd abstain. They're both terrible candidates - mediocre is far too kind.
    Tbh I don't think I could ever abstain in any election. My family always told me it's always better to vote, even if it's for the lesser evil. In this case, I'd vote for Hilary, who I regard as the lesser evil. Trump's rhetoric - particularly towards women and minorities - scares me. As well as his attitude towards Russia.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    John_M said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:

    God. Labour please. This just vapid. It's like reading a mediocre sixth form politics essay.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/labour-party-worker-low-pay-zero-hours-owen-smith

    When Xerox shut down their Mitcheldean factory in the early naughties, I taught some of the poor sods who were being made redundant. Not everyone is going to be able to become a software developer or a web designer. Digital skills revolution, my arse.

    You lived in the Forest?

    Ps, that article shows Cooper's weakness - speaks about the problems but doesn't have any solutions. Cameron andOsborne were a bit that way too.
    From Owen Smith's speech today, or at lest the bits that I caught, there was a concrete and costed plan for what a Labour government would do. Implausible and unappealling to the PB baby-eaters maybe, but there is at least a plan.

    For all his faults, I am rather warming to him. He is streets ahead of Jezza.
    So Dr Fox, what first attracted you to Owen '£25.1 billion extra to the NHS' Smith?

    Jesting aside, it was a well pitched speech to his selectorate. He wasn't talking to the wider public, and as you say, at least there was a semblance of financial rigour to it.
    Yes it is even more than the Brexiteers promised! ;-)

    While Jezza spouts placard slogans and platitudes, and the losing trio last summer could not lay out a sense of future direction for Labour, at least Smith is attempting to outline a future, albeit one that is not to everyones taste.
    I'd have liked it more if he'd promised to increase basic income tax rates. I have no ideological issue with a big state, but you have to widen the tax base to sustain it.
    He did propose a £13.5 billion in new taxes to pay for it. An unusually brave decision for a politician!
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Newt Gingrich
    Since Hillary promised us she only deleted 33,000 personal emails how can it be a national security issue if someone releases them?
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Freggles said:

    Trump, meanwhile, speaking at a press conference in Florida, raised the stakes again, as he urged Russia to hack into and release Clinton’s emails from the personal server she used while she was secretary of state.

    “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” he said.

    “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let’s see if that happens. That will be next.”

    The Republican nominee added: “They probably have her 33,000 emails that she lost and deleted ... I hope they do ... because you’d see some beauties there.” (The guardian)

    I'm going to make a prediction.

    Since I believe that Russia hacked Hillary's server years ago and already has all the stuff, they will release them all, along with the rest of the DNC stuff, as an October surprise.
    And Trump knows it.

    That is if Obama and Hillary doesn't give them something in exchange.

    I think we have entered into a bidding war between the Democrats and the Republicans as to who will give most to the russians in exchange for those emails.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    John_M said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
    So I presume you're not too impressed with either Clinton or Trump, then?
    If I were American I'd abstain. They're both terrible candidates - mediocre is far too kind.
    Tbh I don't think I could ever abstain in any election. My family always told me it's always better to vote, even if it's for the lesser evil. In this case, I'd vote for Hilary, who I regard as the lesser evil. Trump's rhetoric - particularly towards women and minorities - scares me. As well as his attitude towards Russia.
    Oh OK, put a gun to my head, I'll vote Johnson. Russia doesn't bother me particularly. Turkey does.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    John_M said:

    John_M said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As if it's only the Left who are concerned about Putin. Believe it or not, you can be concerned about many things at the same time. You can want to end Islamic Terror, dislike what's going on in Turkey (I personally hoped that the military coup would succeed) and be concerned about Russia as well.

    I keep on reading that Trump is good with voters, but he appears to have terrible ratings with several demographics in America. I don't believe either Clinton or Trump are 'good' with voters overall. Neither candidate is particular unifying: both seem like they would be fairly mediocre leaders and both are proving to be divisive figures. Outside of the 'Make America Great' people (who didn't seem to be singing that tune towards the end of the Bush presidency), it doesn't seem like many Americans are particularly enthused by this election or the candidates it offers.

    "Mediocre" is one of the greatest understatements of all time.
    So I presume you're not too impressed with either Clinton or Trump, then?
    If I were American I'd abstain. They're both terrible candidates - mediocre is far too kind.
    Tbh I don't think I could ever abstain in any election. My family always told me it's always better to vote, even if it's for the lesser evil. In this case, I'd vote for Hilary, who I regard as the lesser evil. Trump's rhetoric - particularly towards women and minorities - scares me. As well as his attitude towards Russia.
    Oh OK, put a gun to my head, I'll vote Johnson. Russia doesn't bother me particularly. Turkey does.
    I kind of see a vote for Johnson or Stein as a wasted vote. Unless it really didn't bother you who becomes President out of Clinton or Trump.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    The campaign to boot Trump until he is crippled is only just starting. Whats more, many in his own party are going to be doing the lifting.

    Sad news from France regarding events yesterday. According to news reports French authorities were searching for one of the attackers because they had been warned by an external Intelligence service that he was on the verge of making an attack. Apparently there was a picture but no supporting info. So the French had the guy's face but had to try to match it up.

    If this is verified, there is a fair educated guess at the source and method of acquiring the information but it was just really unlucky that a little additional fragment wasn't there.
This discussion has been closed.