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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump becomes the first main party nominee in more than 40

SystemSystem Posts: 11,701
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump becomes the first main party nominee in more than 40 years to refuse to release his tax returns

Generally they are issued at a time of the candidate’s choosing and become an issue for a day or so before the media moves on to something else. In 2012 Mitt Romney eventually produced a full set going back several years after a prolonged media clamour.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Nixon's tax returns weren't under audit in 1072. They were being entered into the domesday book.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    edited July 2016
    Sunil J. Prasannan is calling for a total and complete shut-down of AV threads entering PB.com, until our forum's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    edited July 2016
    This is not anywhere near as big a negative as the DNC corruption, Hillary's emails or the booing & convention dissent. Typical liberal post from the former-libdem politician. Willing to look the other way when your ideologies match.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2016
    So far so good for Trump:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

    He got a 6 point bounce compared with Romney's 4 point one, and his lead is bigger than what Romney ever managed to get.

    Lets see what Hillary can do, last time Obama got a 2 point bounce.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,988
    1072 !
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    Pulpstar said:

    1072 !

    Battle of Earl Warren Hastings!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,560
    Pulpstar said:

    1072 !

    Prior to Nixon aiding William I in his invasion of Scotland.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    edited July 2016
    Regarding the French authorities success at preventing terrorist attacks that I mentioned earlier, I've just heard a French politician on Radio 5 say that in the past month the police in France have foiled 16 attacks. Which I think amply illustrates both the scale of the problem and my point about the many successes going unnoted.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,374
    I think he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Pauly said:

    This is not anywhere near as big a negative as the DNC corruption, Hillary's emails or the booing & convention dissent. Typical liberal post from the former-libdem politician. Willing to look the other way when your ideologies match.

    No, Mr Smithson has a point. It's a break with precedent and risky. Not releasing his tax returns may draw more of the wrong sort of attention than releasing them (depending on what's in them, I suppose).

    Mind you everything about the Trump campaign is a break with precedent so maybe it won't make any difference.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,374
    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Hmm, I think this could be quite significant. Not only does it make it look as though he's got something to hide, it's also something he's flip-flopped and prevaricated on for months.

    After claiming that he is audited “every single year,” Trump said that he would in fact release the returns, ideally sooner than Nov. 8.

    “So, the answer is, I’ll release. Hopefully before the election I’ll release,” he said. “And I’d like to release.”


    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/donald-trump-tax-returns-223101
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,566
    DavidL said:

    I think he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.

    Isn't it more a case that the tax return will show he's actually not a billionaire.

    No wonder people are betting on the smallness on Trump's todger
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,560
    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Pauly said:

    This is not anywhere near as big a negative as the DNC corruption, Hillary's emails or the booing & convention dissent. Typical liberal post from the former-libdem politician. Willing to look the other way when your ideologies match.

    No, Mr Smithson has a point. It's a break with precedent and risky. Not releasing his tax returns may draw more of the wrong sort of attention than releasing them (depending on what's in them, I suppose).

    Mind you everything about the Trump campaign is a break with precedent so maybe it won't make any difference.
    All he has to say is release those transcripts. Hillarys line that this is not precedent is so weak.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    DavidL said:

    I think he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.

    Bingo.

    Romney's taxes even included a tax refund for a prized horse he had.
    That was very embarrassing, but the media never dumped on it much because he was one of them.

    But we know that media attacks on Trump have less and less impact, if they had any in the first place, it's the same trick with diminishing returns.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,566

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    The best mistake in PB history was during the EURef when Mike quoted the wrong/old polling figures and for a few minutes Sterling soared and the FTSE went up by 10%
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Trump's ability to deflect, and reframe the argument is why he has done so well so far.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9698632
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    Yeah, what's a thousand years between friends?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    I am surprised all the charity stuff about trump hasn't changed had a big push.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    Yeah, what's a thousand years between friends?
    Nine hundred years ...
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    DavidL said:

    I think he fears embarrassment about how little tax this supposed billionaire actually pays.

    Or how much he claims as an expense for his "hair".
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Doesn't matter much, Poland would probably have been outvoted anyway most of the times.

    I see this as simply a political spat between the ex-Polish PM who is now one of the 3 EU presidents and the current polish government.
    Donald Tusk is simply putting pressure on his political enemies in Poland, and that's about it.

    The British equivalent would have been Nick Clegg using the EU bureaucracy to attack the Tories.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    Yeah, what's a thousand years between friends?
    Nine hundred years ...
    I'm a physicist, we deal in orders of magnitude!
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    The best mistake in PB history was during the EURef when Mike quoted the wrong/old polling figures and for a few minutes Sterling soared and the FTSE went up by 10%
    Up 10%???!!!? They are mad.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    We should see this for exactly what it is, a partisan attack on a government that isn't kowtowing sufficiently. A bullying exercise.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    This is potentially significant. But not in the way I think Mike argues. I doubt that this one issue simply presented in a neutral fashion to the voters would change many voting intentions.

    However, if Hillary is unable to make an issue out of it and make it stick, then it does not bode well for her campaign. What other opportunity will she get which is better than this with which to hit his core image of successful businessman you can trust with the country? If she can't win this battle, I think it will mean her campaign will be totally ineffectual.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Congrats to all who spotted this afternoon's deliberate mistake which has now been corrected.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    Not in the SC.
  • Options

    Love the way this site doesn't allow you to get away with even the tiniest of mistakes.

    I wouldn't go quite that far Casino, PBers are particularly tolerant of all those thousands of incorrectly inserted apostrophes. Some posters stick them in for good measure in the case of every single plural ..... quite extraordinary.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414

    Congrats to all who spotted this afternoon's deliberate mistake which has now been corrected.

    Deliberate?

    'Course it was, Mike! 'Course it was :)
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    Trump calls on Russia to find Hillary's missing emails...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    nunu said:

    Trump's ability to deflect, and reframe the argument is why he has done so well so far.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9698632

    He is a populist in a country where 70-75% of the public say things are on the wrong track, and where the average medium income has declined every year for 10 years and is down to 1996 levels.

    That is the secret of his political success:
    The consistent record of failure of all others that criticize him.

    Plus him being a Stand Up Comedian.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337
    FPT
    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Trump calls on Russia to find Hillary's missing emails...

    I got news for him, they probably already have for years.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Doesn't matter much, Poland would probably have been outvoted anyway most of the times.

    I see this as simply a political spat between the ex-Polish PM who is now one of the 3 EU presidents and the current polish government.
    Donald Tusk is simply putting pressure on his political enemies in Poland, and that's about it.

    The British equivalent would have been Nick Clegg using the EU bureaucracy to attack the Tories.
    Is that supposed to be a good thing? I mean someone using their power in the EU bureaucracy to beat up on their domestic political rivals - is that something that should even be tolerated?

    Than goodness we are getting out of such a nest of vipers and corruption.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Speedy said:

    nunu said:

    Trump's ability to deflect, and reframe the argument is why he has done so well so far.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9698632

    He is a populist in a country where 70-75% of the public say things are on the wrong track, and where the average medium income has declined every year for 10 years and is down to 1996 levels.

    That is the secret of his political success:
    The consistent record of failure of all others that criticize him.

    Plus him being a Stand Up Comedian.
    I think most Americans have not accepted relative decline, and tbh I hope they dont.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    Talking of which, is Obama still trying to nominate Garland or has he given up?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,988
    edited July 2016

    Trump calls on Russia to find Hillary's missing emails...

    I think he is playing politics with Hillary's e-mail woes ;)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2016
    I never know with trump if it a genuine possible scandal or a massive troll on his part.

    Let's just say the media / democrats spend ages trying to make all this stick & then trump releases & they aren't that interesting.

    Remember the guardian/bbc and the Panama papers shooting their load over the whole thing & in reality the hype didn't match up & no matter how much they pushed things the public just weren't very interested.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited July 2016
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    Talking of which, is Obama still trying to nominate Garland or has he given up?
    It's certainly not in the news, and I think at this stage, tradition would be on the side of the GOP not to nominate until there is a new President and a new Senate.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.

    Why is that a greater risk than straightforward corruption? Indeed, I would see it as being far less likely, as sources of political donations have to be published.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    nunu said:
    Entertaining the crowd and carrying it with him, that's his secret.

    For example look at this comedy sketch of Trump vs Bernie, the actor who plays Trump leads the audience into supporting Trump so much that he is forced at the end to plead them not to vote for him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfXdmHseiFA

    Satire is an exaggeration of real life to the point everyone sees what's going on, in the above the actor who plays Trump is so entertaining he carries the audience with him, and the actor who plays Bernie makes people feel sorry for Sanders.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    chestnut said:
    Isis bio on him said he had fought in Syria for various Islamist groups & that the police searched his place before & missed him bomb making setup. Now I taken ISIS propaganda with pinch of salt, but yokel stated before this came out he wasn't clean.
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    40 years of convention, ended by Mr Unconventional. Why is anyone still surprised by Trump?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.
    Thanks, I'll look that up.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.

    PS Of those religions, I have actually stayed with Druze in both Lebanon and Syria, know several Copts and was due to visit Kalash until the earthquake last November disrupted my plans. Alas, my time in Iraq was not conducive to exploring the northern areas.
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016
    The reason why Trump hasn't released his tax returns isn't because he'd be adversely affected if he did. It's because

    1) He can position himself as on the side of the people against the IRS for a while

    (He is after all campaigning on a platform of tax reform)

    2) He's benefiting from not releasing them

    (All these "theories" - they're all about HIM, squeezing the Democratic Convention for attention. I do like the quote from Ted Cruz that the Washington Post brings up again: "There have been multiple media reports about Donald's business dealings with the mob, with the mafia. Maybe his taxes show those business dealings are a lot more extensive than has been reported." I mean who controls cement in New York? All will become clear when Trump releases his tax returns, right? Everyone has their suspicions, but when Trump releases those returns, oh how we'll all know for sure at last. Construction in New York isn't clean. What a sensation. It could swing the election :) It seems to me that the Washington Post and other organs are having rings run around them by the Trump campaign. Nobody's going to vote against Trump because he doesn't donate enough to charity.)

    3) He has the option of releasing them when it's to his maximum benefit

    (He released a financial statement in June 2015 when he declared he was running. The summary is at the back of his book, Crippled America. He filed further Personal Financial Declaration forms with the Federal Election Commission in May 2016.)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.
    Thanks, I'll look that up.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    chestnut said:
    Isis bio on him said he had fought in Syria for various Islamist groups & that the police searched his place before & missed him bomb making setup. Now I taken ISIS propaganda with pinch of salt, but yokel stated before this came out he wasn't clean.
    I always wonder where Yokel gets his info. He claims not to be connected, but he gets detailed info way quicker than news outlets ...
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Wednesday by-election result.

    The Hangers & Forest (East Hampshire):
    CON: 45.3% (-23.7)
    LDEM: 43.6% (+43.6)
    JUST: 7.9% (+7.9)
    LAB: 3.3% (-9.7)
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.
    Thanks, I'll look that up.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
    Thanks. That's precisely where I got the 777 figure from :)
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    And heavy drinking & gambling was not happening in dark ages Britain? Sheesh, Doc, the countries that make up the present UK have been on the piss for 2000 years plus (alcohol intake in the UK is probably lower now than at any time in history*) and gaming was prevalent throughout our history.

    * More spirits are consumed now than previously, which is probably detrimental to the nation's health, but that is because of successive governments' tax changes (aka stupidity). A bottle of spirits can be bought for £10-£13 in the offie/supermarket whereas a pint in the pub is, locally, £4.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414

    Wednesday by-election result.

    The Hangers & Forest (East Hampshire):
    CON: 45.3% (-23.7)
    LDEM: 43.6% (+43.6)
    JUST: 7.9% (+7.9)
    LAB: 3.3% (-9.7)

    A result at 6pm????
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    But surely beware - their history has been written by their vanquishers.

    Point of trivia - I had assumed they were a long vanished tribe. Apparently, as of 2015 there are some 777 of them still extant just outside Tel Aviv.
    There's a very good book on not-quite-vanished religions in the near East called Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms by Gerard Russell. Includes a chapter on the Samaritans. Highly recommended.
    Thanks, I'll look that up.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
    Thanks. That's precisely where I got the 777 figure from :)
    Um, I thought as much ;)
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    The blessed lady Thatch (PBUH) was the world heavy weight champion at that tactic.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    As @DavidL said it's more likely to be his embarrassment at earning or making so little.

    Didn't they show he had across all held asset classes significantly underperformed a Dow tracker.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    taffys said:

    One thing which I find seriously refreshing about Trump is that he stands his ground when attacked by innuendo and forces his opponents to make a substantive argument instead. The stuff about Russia is a perfect example of this. A traditional candidate would treat this as a campaign gaffe that needs to be covered up, but Trump doubles down and makes the other side explain why xyz is supposed to be disqualifying.

    The blessed lady Thatch (PBUH) was the world heavy weight champion at that tactic.
    Could this be a fancy way of saying that politicians who say what they mean and mean what they say are coming back into fashion? I sure hope so.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Wednesday by-election result.

    The Hangers & Forest (East Hampshire):
    CON: 45.3% (-23.7)
    LDEM: 43.6% (+43.6)
    JUST: 7.9% (+7.9)
    LAB: 3.3% (-9.7)

    A result at 6pm????
    It was yesterday.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited July 2016
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia...,
    And *that* is why we love PB.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,004
    Surely 7th century?
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016

    (T)he countries that make up the present UK have been on the piss for 2000 years plus (alcohol intake in the UK is probably lower now than at any time in history*) (...)

    * More spirits are consumed now than previously, which is probably detrimental to the nation's health, but that is because of successive governments' tax changes (aka stupidity). A bottle of spirits can be bought for £10-£13 in the offie/supermarket whereas a pint in the pub is, locally, £4.

    According to James Nicholls at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, alcohol intake per head of population was 40% higher in 2012 than in 1971. (Second graph here.)

    There is also a graph showing the consumption of beer, wine and spirits per head between 1800 and 1935. I knew beer consumption was higher in the past, but was interested to learn that consumption of spirits between WW1 and 1935 was lower than at any time between 1800 and 1914.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337
    edited July 2016

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    And heavy drinking & gambling was not happening in dark ages Britain? Sheesh, Doc, the countries that make up the present UK have been on the piss for 2000 years plus (alcohol intake in the UK is probably lower now than at any time in history*) and gaming was prevalent throughout our history.

    * More spirits are consumed now than previously, which is probably detrimental to the nation's health, but that is because of successive governments' tax changes (aka stupidity). A bottle of spirits can be bought for £10-£13 in the offie/supermarket whereas a pint in the pub is, locally, £4.
    Actually no, not to nearly the same extent. The common British drink was small ale, which was not alcoholic. Dice were common as a form of amusement, gambling was less so - indeed gambling became a very much more serious social problem in the eighteenth century than it had been before.

    Nobody had a good word to say about the Samaritans, including the Byzantines and the Jews. Remember the astonishing feature of Jesus' second most famous parable was that it was a Samaritan who came to the rescue.

    PS the publicans of Horsham are ripping you off something chronic at £4 a pint! In Cannock if they ask for £3.50 you go to another pub.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727

    Wednesday by-election result.

    The Hangers & Forest (East Hampshire):
    CON: 45.3% (-23.7)
    LDEM: 43.6% (+43.6)
    JUST: 7.9% (+7.9)
    LAB: 3.3% (-9.7)

    A result at 6pm????
    An unusual Tuesday election.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    And heavy drinking & gambling was not happening in dark ages Britain? Sheesh, Doc, the countries that make up the present UK have been on the piss for 2000 years plus (alcohol intake in the UK is probably lower now than at any time in history*) and gaming was prevalent throughout our history.

    * More spirits are consumed now than previously, which is probably detrimental to the nation's health, but that is because of successive governments' tax changes (aka stupidity). A bottle of spirits can be bought for £10-£13 in the offie/supermarket whereas a pint in the pub is, locally, £4.
    Actually no, not to nearly the same extent. The common British drink was small ale, which was not alcoholic. Dice were common as a form of amusement, gambling was less so - indeed gambling became a very much more serious social problem in the eighteenth century than it had been before.

    Nobody had a good word to say about the Samaritans, including the Byzantines and the Jews. Remember the astonishing feature of Jesus' second most famous parable was that it was a Samaritan who came to the rescue.

    PS the publicans of Horsham are ripping you off something chronic at £4 a pint! In Cannock if they ask for £3.50 you go to another pub.
    Obligatory Mitchell and Webb:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rywVlfTtlMY
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337

    Surely 7th century?

    No, 6th. Mohammed died in 632AD but his ministry began in his thirties, so just before 600 in all probability.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2016
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    I do not think that Samaritans are polytheistic, indeed they would claim to be the oldest strand of monotheism in the world. My understanding is that they only recognise the Penteteuch (initial 5 books of the Old Testament/Torah). As such they do not recognise the authority of the later prophets or Rabinnical Judaism.

    They were a distinct group in Biblical times, and shunned and were shunned concerning contact with mainstream Jews. Hence the significance of the Good Samaritan in Jesus's parable - pointing out that goodness in a person is not defined by their external observances but rather their internal experience of God. Similarly Jesus's companions were shocked when he drank water given to him by a Samaritan woman, but once again reaching out to recognise the goodness and piety of a non-othodox believer.

    There are some interesting parallels between attitudes of first Century Jews to Samaritans and later Christians to Jews, or Muslims to Jews and Christians.

    Incidentally, I am told that due to inbreeding in a small closed community genetic diseases are particularly common in modern day Samaritans.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,994
    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.
    Even discounting that, they may suffer electorally for judicially correct decisions as opponents play as tougher on crime and the like.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    AndyJS said:
    Why did u vote Remain?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    I do not think that Samaritans are polytheistic, indeed they would claim to be the oldest strand of monotheism in the world. My understanding is that they only recognise the Penteteuch (initial 5 books of the Old Testament/Torah). As such they do not recognise the authority of the later prophets or Rabinnical Judaism.

    They were a distinct group in Biblical times, and shunned and were shunned concerning contact with mainstream Jews. Hence the significance of the Good Samaritan in Jesus's parable - pointing out that goodness in a person is not defined by their external observances but rather their internal experience of God. Similarly Jesus's companions were shocked when he drank water given to him by a Samaritan woman, but once again reaching out to recognise the goodness and piety of a non-othodox believer.

    There are some interesting parallels between attitudes of first Century Jews to Samaritans and later Christians to Jews, or Muslims to Jews and Christians.

    Incidentally, I am told that due to inbreeding in a small closed community genetic diseases are particularly common in modern day Samaritans.
    The Meccans were polytheistic. Therefore either they were not Samaritans or the Samaritans have invented a new history to account for themselves. I have to say that while I am still at an early stage researching New Testament studies what I have found does not suggest your post is correct unless there was a further sect within them that was monotheistic I haven't come across yet.

    Incidentally the oldest monotheistic religion would of course be Hinduism but people get confused when you point that out to them!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    ydoethur said:

    Nobody had a good word to say about the Samaritans, including the Byzantines and the Jews. Remember the astonishing feature of Jesus' second most famous parable was that it was a Samaritan who came to the rescue.

    Maybe the Samaritans charity should rename itself into something with a similar connotation today so that people get the point.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    I do not think that Samaritans are polytheistic, indeed they would claim to be the oldest strand of monotheism in the world. My understanding is that they only recognise the Penteteuch (initial 5 books of the Old Testament/Torah). As such they do not recognise the authority of the later prophets or Rabinnical Judaism.

    They were a distinct group in Biblical times, and shunned and were shunned concerning contact with mainstream Jews. Hence the significance of the Good Samaritan in Jesus's parable - pointing out that goodness in a person is not defined by their external observances but rather their internal experience of God. Similarly Jesus's companions were shocked when he drank water given to him by a Samaritan woman, but once again reaching out to recognise the goodness and piety of a non-othodox believer.

    There are some interesting parallels between attitudes of first Century Jews to Samaritans and later Christians to Jews, or Muslims to Jews and Christians.

    Incidentally, I am told that due to inbreeding in a small closed community genetic diseases are particularly common in modern day Samaritans.
    The Meccans were polytheistic. Therefore either they were not Samaritans or the Samaritans have invented a new history to account for themselves. I have to say that while I am still at an early stage researching New Testament studies what I have found does not suggest your post is correct unless there was a further sect within them that was monotheistic I haven't come across yet.

    Incidentally the oldest monotheistic religion would of course be Hinduism but people get confused when you point that out to them!
    The Samaritans are not polytheists - they were Jews that stayed in Palestine when the Babylonians captured the bulk of the Jewish population. This is why they recognise only the Pentateuch, as "mainstream" Judaism (as they see it) was tainted by contact with the Babylonians.

    I would have thought the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten invented monotheism :)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,004
    Dr. Prasannen, not Zoroaster?

    Mr. Doethur, I'll take your word for it [I was under the impression it was 7th, though I covered it some time ago].
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337



    The Samaritans are not polytheists - they were Jews that stayed in Palestine when the Babylonians captured the bulk of the Jewish population. This is why they recognise only the Pentateuch, as "mainstream" Judaism (as they see it) was tainted by contact with the Babylonians.

    I would have thought the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten invented monotheism :)

    In that case clearly I am confusing the Samaritans with another religion. Which one though? Also I clearly have some more reading to do on this subject - any suggestions?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.
    Even discounting that, they may suffer electorally for judicially correct decisions as opponents play as tougher on crime and the like.
    Pandering to public sentiment to me is a far greater worry than corruption, in terms of its likelihood and impact.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337
    Incidentally having caught up with previous threads while I have wifi everyone missed the pun they could have made over Fireman Sam and the Quran.

    He was originally a Welsh language character, Sam Tan (lit. 'Sam the Fire' - you know how these things go).

    So you could have had 'the Samtanic Verses' with no trouble at all!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414
    ydoethur said:



    The Samaritans are not polytheists - they were Jews that stayed in Palestine when the Babylonians captured the bulk of the Jewish population. This is why they recognise only the Pentateuch, as "mainstream" Judaism (as they see it) was tainted by contact with the Babylonians.

    I would have thought the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten invented monotheism :)

    In that case clearly I am confusing the Samaritans with another religion. Which one though? Also I clearly have some more reading to do on this subject - any suggestions?
    According to Arabic history books, the Quraysh tribe was a branch of the Banu Kinanah tribe, which descended from the Mudhar. For several generations, they were spread about among other tribal groupings. About five generations before Muhammad, the situation was changed by Qusai ibn Kilab. By war and diplomacy, he assembled an alliance that delivered to him the keys of the Kaaba, an important pagan shrine, which brought revenues to Mecca because of the multitude of pilgrims that it attracted. He then gathered his fellow tribesmen to settle at Mecca, where he enjoyed such adulation from his kin that they adjudged him their de facto king, a position that was enjoyed by no other descendant of his. Different responsibilities were apportioned between the clans, between whom there were some rivalries, which became especially pronounced during Muhammad's lifetime.
    The Quraysh's main god was Hubal. According to The Oxford Handbook of Late Antiquity, "The Qurayshite pantheon was composed principally of idols that were in the Haram of Makka, that is, Hubal (the most important and oldest deity), Manaf, Isaf, and Na'ila."[20]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    nunu said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT
    It is worth noting that the sanctions available to the EU against Poland in relation to this matter are set out in Article 7 TEU. These are surrounded with a thicket of different qualified majorities etc and in at least 1 case requires unanimity of the European Council of which Poland is of course a member.
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012M007

    The bite after all this faff is the potential suspension of Poland's voting rights in the Ministers in Council. Not exactly sending the tanks in.

    The irony of the unelected EU Commission acting as the arbiter and protector of democratic rights is hard to miss.

    Judges are not elected. Are you suggesting that they should be?
    In america they are, I think.
    At the state level, it is split between states which elect and those which appoint:

    http://www.justiceatstake.org/issues/state_court_issues/election-vs-appointment/

    At the federal level, most judges are appointed by the President subject to confirmation by the US Senate, although magistrates and bankruptcy judges are nominated by lower courts rather than the Admininstration:

    http://www.fjc.gov/federal/courts.nsf/autoframe?openagent&nav=menu1&page=/federal/courts.nsf/page/183
    I don't like the system of elected judges, there is a risk that they let crooks free in return for funding their election campaign.
    Even discounting that, they may suffer electorally for judicially correct decisions as opponents play as tougher on crime and the like.
    Pandering to public sentiment to me is a far greater worry than corruption, in terms of its likelihood and impact.
    Is that an inadvertent defence of the European Commission?
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    jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Small ale, small beer, was indeed alcoholic, but only just. It had enough alcohol to kill the bacteria, and was drunk in place of water, which may well have been contaminated.
    I suppose the equivalent today is Aldi "Value Lager"
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia,
    I do not think that Samaritans are polytheistic, indeed they would claim to be the oldest strand of monotheism in the world. My understanding is that they only recognise the Penteteuch (initial 5 books of the Old Testament/Torah). As such they do not recognise the authority of the later prophets or Rabinnical Judaism.

    They were a distinct group in Biblical times, and shunned and were shunned concerning contact with mainstream Jews. Hence the significance of the Good Samaritan in Jesus's parable - pointing out that goodness in a person is not defined by their external observances but rather their internal experience of God. Similarly Jesus's companions were shocked when he drank water given to him by a Samaritan woman, but once again reaching out to recognise the goodness and piety of a non-othodox believer.

    There are some interesting parallels between attitudes of first Century Jews to Samaritans and later Christians to Jews, or Muslims to Jews and Christians.

    Incidentally, I am told that due to inbreeding in a small closed community genetic diseases are particularly common in modern day Samaritans.
    The Meccans were polytheistic. Therefore either they were not Samaritans or the Samaritans have invented a new history to account for themselves. I have to say that while I am still at an early stage researching New Testament studies what I have found does not suggest your post is correct unless there was a further sect within them that was monotheistic I haven't come across yet.

    Incidentally the oldest monotheistic religion would of course be Hinduism but people get confused when you point that out to them!
    Could I refer you to the book of John Chapter 4, where Jesus discussed with the Samaritan woman?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

    6th Century Meccans were pagans, with a number of gods and deities, as well as there being significant Jewish and Christian communities. Indeed Allah is the name assosciated with the moon god, and chosen by early Muslims. Hence the significance of the cresent moon in Islam, and the phases of the moon in defining ramadan etc.

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    Following his conquest of Mecca, Mohammad smashed all the 300 pagan idols in the main square and expelled at the point of the sword all those who would not convert to Islam. The trouble in Islam is that IS are actually true to the original Islam.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,560

    Wednesday by-election result.

    The Hangers & Forest (East Hampshire):
    CON: 45.3% (-23.7)
    LDEM: 43.6% (+43.6)
    JUST: 7.9% (+7.9)
    LAB: 3.3% (-9.7)

    Truly shocking result.

    Corbyn's Labour getting over 3% in wealthy rural Hampshire?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,414

    Dr. Prasannen, not Zoroaster?

    Mr Dancer, Akhenaten was c.1350 BC, Zoroaster, c. 600 BC.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337
    edited July 2016

    Dr. Prasannen, not Zoroaster?

    Mr. Doethur, I'll take your word for it [I was under the impression it was 7th, though I covered it some time ago].

    Islam developed through the 7th century, but what came before it was the 6th. Indeed, most of the stuff in the Quran about no drinking, gambling, whoring etc was about the context of the time and Mohammed's revulsion from it (Don't tell ISIS that as they don't like it).

    Mind you as you have just seen I can make mistakes like everyone else. However, I am a lot more secure on the life of Mohammed than on what came before and indeed on the splits that came after, before bobbing backin with the Battle of Manzikert and the later First Crusade.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,560

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:


    Of the top 10 most corrupt, all but two are Islamic. But is this an issue with Islam, or just a feature of a particularly terrible part of the world? Put another way, if Islam had never happened - and these countries were whatever religion was there beforehand - would they still be corrupt, violent, ultra-conservative, etc, but worship a different god, equally angrily? I'm not attempting to wring hands here - a genuine open question to which I don't know the answer.

    From the comparatively little I know of 6th century Arabia, things would be worse. The polytheism of the Samaritans had every single negative of the most radical Muslim theologians and also encouraged heavy drinking and gambling,* two things that cause widespread corruption and poverty of themselves.

    *i realise this may not be the best forum to make this point! However, the culture was of gambling on games of chance especially dice.
    And heavy drinking & gambling was not happening in dark ages Britain? Sheesh, Doc, the countries that make up the present UK have been on the piss for 2000 years plus (alcohol intake in the UK is probably lower now than at any time in history*) and gaming was prevalent throughout our history.

    * More spirits are consumed now than previously, which is probably detrimental to the nation's health, but that is because of successive governments' tax changes (aka stupidity). A bottle of spirits can be bought for £10-£13 in the offie/supermarket whereas a pint in the pub is, locally, £4.
    Makes me proud to be British.

    (The price of a pint is a crime.)
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337

    <

    Could I refer you to the book of John Chapter 4, where Jesus discussed with the Samaritan woman?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

    6th Century Meccans were pagans, with a number of gods and deities, as well as there being significant Jewish and Christian communities. Indeed Allah is the name assosciated with the moon god, and chosen by early Muslims. Hence the significance of the cresent moon in Islam, and the phases of the moon in defining ramadan etc.

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    Following his conquest of Mecca, Mohammad smashed all the 300 pagan idols in the main square and expelled at the point of the sword all those who would not convert to Islam. The trouble in Islam is that IS are actually true to the original Islam.

    Yes, and I'm clearly getting muddled, although actually that passage from John wouldn't on its own rule out polytheism.

    I will do some more reading (when I get back, as next week is all about the Holocaust).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,004
    Dr. Prasannan, ah, for some reason I thought Zoroaster was earlier.

    Also, Akhenaten didn't really found a movement, he just imposed his own peculiar beliefs on Egypt, which were then swept away by a traditional return with his successor, Tutankhamun.

    I see the fool from the Vatican thinks this is a war but nothing to do with religion.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,222
    To the Holy Mountain by William Dalrymple is also a very interesting read about the religions of the Middle East. He explores all the areas which are now drenched in blood and the history and current state of Christianity in its ancestral home. Written some time ago. But very well worth reading.

    At one point he finds a church in I think Eastern Turkey or possibly Syria where there are (were, I should say) a few worshippers still worshipping in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,337
    edited July 2016
    jayfdee said:

    Small ale, small beer, was indeed alcoholic, but only just. It had enough alcohol to kill the bacteria, and was drunk in place of water, which may well have been contaminated.
    I suppose the equivalent today is Aldi "Value Lager"

    I didn't know that cats' wee* had any alcohol content. Do they add it at the bottling stage or earlier?

    Funniest I ever heard was of a guide at Fountains Abbey who got muddled and said the monks drank eight pints of real ale a day. Now that WOULD be serious drinking!

    *i hope Dr @foxinsoxuk you noticed my careful selection of language there.
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