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  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,302

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Smith doing well on Newsnight

    Agree with him on MND, NHS, taxes, immigration.

    But I just don't trust him to not change his mind again like he has on MND, NHS private sector involvement and immigration.

    Yes - and I do think he's a rather good media performer. Fluent, clear answers to questions. Which atleast puts him a step above the Liz Kendalls and Tristram Hunts of the world, who not only had the wrong principles, they were uncharismatic and utterly useless at even giving a decent TV appearance.

    However, I'm still yet to be convinced that Smith (and more importantly, the many New Labour MPs who WOULD play an influential part if he wins the leadership) actually has a vague clue how to appeal to the public. As Hillary Clinton is showing, and the Remain campaign and Scottish Labour certainly showed, the Establishment/Status Quo politicians are proving pretty bad at actually winning elections right now.

    Much as Southam Observer may scoff, my head right now is still saying Corbyn is actually the more electable candidate -- my mind's still open, but I'll need some sign that Smith is not just going to model his strategy on the Remain Campaign to be convinced.
    Owen Smith will say whatever his audience wants to hear. Jezza OTOH sticks to his principles !

    I doubt a majority of Labour members would have been keen on Smith's views on Trident, immigration and patriotism. They were very Old Labour. This contest is basically Healey v Benn all over again!

    That flatters Corbyn. If Benn were still alive, it's far from a given that he would be backing Corbyn now.
    He would expect if the opponent was Hilary
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ABC
    WATCH LIVE: Clinton campaign chair @johnpodesta addresses #DemsinPhilly https://t.co/haSEz8H36c https://t.co/WXiUjTx8P0
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about Gujarati? ;)
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    Pulpstar said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky news in Philly
    Delegates stating they will never vote for Clinton. Sign held up in front of National TV

    "No to Trump, No to Clinton"

    Crypes!

    Yes to who then? Johnson?
    Jill Stein
    Probably Stein, yes. Or write Sanders in. Both actions being equivalent in effect to abstaining.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Tim_B said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about Gujarati? ;)
    What about Gujarati? Gujarat's population is slightly less than England
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.

    I really don't think it's that. I've travelled a lot in the US, and I think the answer is much, much simpler: they just love guns so much that they don't care about the deaths. On trips to the US I used to scan through the channels on the TV, in the vain hope of finding something worth watching, and I was always struck by the extraordinarily high proportion of channels which, at any time of the day or night, would show someone with a gun. They love the excitement of guns. That's all there is to it, I reckon.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. If they are happy with so many innocent deaths, well, they are happy with them.
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    Pulpstar said:

    OH poll

    Trump 42, HRC 39

    Two candidates only

    Trump 45, HRC 45

    Both Stein and Johnson will be on the ballot in Ohio.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Jonathan said:

    I have a suggestion: perhaps the RNC and DNC should just agree that the whole thing has been a nightmare, and that they should just start the primaries all over again with completely new slate of candidates?

    Can we also have a rerun of UK politics, rebooting 1 Jan 2015
    Why 1st January 2015?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    You are missing it, because it is a historical cultural legacy, not an argument based on current facts. As I said, a very large part of the country is only one or two generations away from that.

    Personally, I am against gun licences for those living in cities (save hunting guns), I am for a blanket ban on semi automatics, and I am for stronger regulations on checking gun license applications and safe storage of guns and ammo. But I come to it from a European perspective. What we are dealing with a well-entrenched frontier culture, even though history has moved on from that.

    Even now, where we live, most people are at least 15 minutes away from a 911 response. Whatever the national debate, hunting and the ability to defend one's house is what real people discuss. over 46 million US citizens live in rural areas. It may be a minority, but it is still a lot of people.

    But I am sure you know better from your apartment in London. And i am sure that Brits are well-placed to lecture US citizens on what are spurious arguments.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    anger that people have not been allowed to vote, watching 2010 election.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016
    MTimT said:

    But I am sure you know better from your apartment in London. And i am sure that Brits are well-placed to lecture US citizens on what are spurious arguments.

    Yes, actually, I am well placed. Sometimes distance adds perspective. And, what's more, I can simply point to the figures. End of argument.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Sanders spokesman saying they have lost control of their people at the convention. The best they can do is to try and stop them chanting "Lock her up" every time Hillary's name is mentioned, and merely boo the mention.

    I have never seen anything like this - the convention boos and chants "Lock her up" every time the nominee's name is mentioned, and the party chairman is fired on the eve of the convention.

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz has a primary August 30th to save her congressional seat. Sanders has endorsed her opponent Tim Canova. He has a great first name.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    I must say, when I posted earlier that I thought the DNC convention was looking as though it would be a shambles, I hadn't expected that it would be a shambles on this Trumpesque, larger-than-life, scale.

    It's Yuge!!!!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    It is worth noting that following recent terrorist outrages in Nice and Bavaria, police on the spot were armed and able to put a stop to the killing. Outside London, and possibly not even there, I cannot see that happening in a timely fashion in the UK.

    I would not suggest that we need a US style armed populace, but perhaps it is time to arm and train our police.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Tim_B said:

    Sanders spokesman saying they have lost control of their people at the convention. The best they can do is to try and stop them chanting "Lock her up" every time Hillary's name is mentioned, and merely boo the mention.

    I have never seen anything like this - the convention boos and chants "Lock her up" every time the nominee's name is mentioned, and the party chairman is fired on the eve of the convention.

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz has a primary August 30th to save her congressional seat. Sanders has endorsed her opponent Tim Canova. He has a great first name.

    ABC reporter on floor is gobsmacked. Keeps hearing random protest plans from Bernie fans to turn their backs, walk out etc.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    It is worth noting that following recent terrorist outrages in Nice and Bavaria, police on the spot were armed and able to put a stop to the killing. Outside London, and possibly not even there, I cannot see that happening in a timely fashion in the UK.

    I would not suggest that we need a US style armed populace, but perhaps it is time to arm and train our police.
    There is some work on this front:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/boost-in-firearms-coverage-to-protect-against-terror-attacks/
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Doesn't England legally mean "England and Wales" /pedant mode :D
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,318
    PlatoSaid said:

    Tim_B said:

    Sanders spokesman saying they have lost control of their people at the convention. The best they can do is to try and stop them chanting "Lock her up" every time Hillary's name is mentioned, and merely boo the mention.

    I have never seen anything like this - the convention boos and chants "Lock her up" every time the nominee's name is mentioned, and the party chairman is fired on the eve of the convention.

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz has a primary August 30th to save her congressional seat. Sanders has endorsed her opponent Tim Canova. He has a great first name.

    ABC reporter on floor is gobsmacked. Keeps hearing random protest plans from Bernie fans to turn their backs, walk out etc.
    It will be interesting to see if they try to stage manage more aggressively in the next few days. They need to be careful they don't create a bigger backlash.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,318
    RobD said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Doesn't England legally mean "England and Wales" /pedant mode :D
    Pedant mode or troll mode?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.

    I really don't think it's that. I've travelled a lot in the US, and I think the answer is much, much simpler: they just love guns so much that they don't care about the deaths. On trips to the US I used to scan through the channels on the TV, in the vain hope of finding something worth watching, and I was always struck by the extraordinarily high proportion of channels which, at any time of the day or night, would show someone with a gun. They love the excitement of guns. That's all there is to it, I reckon.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. If they are happy with so many innocent deaths, well, they are happy with them.

    I chatted to a very nice bloke from West Virginia in a bar at Charlotte airport once. He had 38 guns. I din't think he had so many because he was afraid of being attacked :-)

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    I must say, when I posted earlier that I thought the DNC convention was looking as though it would be a shambles, I hadn't expected that it would be a shambles on this Trumpesque, larger-than-life, scale.

    Its almost as if both the RNC or DNC conventions hearts really were not in it this time around.. Definitely think that turnout is going to be lower with Americans deciding none of the above. You also have to wonder if a Trump vs Sanders campaign wouldn't have been a better choice to get voters out?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029

    RobD said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Doesn't England legally mean "England and Wales" /pedant mode :D
    Pedant mode or troll mode?
    I had my most innocent face on while typing that. :p
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Wales has devolution - and its own football and rugby teams :)
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    RobD said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Doesn't England legally mean "England and Wales" /pedant mode :D
    Devolution, man! And football and rugby ;)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I chatted to a very nice bloke from West Virginia in a bar at Charlotte airport once. He had 38 guns. I din't think he had so many because he was afraid of being attacked :-)

    I used to work with this chap from Virginia (in fact he was a director of my company for a while):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Van_Cleave

    An extremely nice guy.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    But I am sure you know better from your apartment in London. And i am sure that Brits are well-placed to lecture US citizens on what are spurious arguments.

    Yes, actually, I am well placed. Sometimes distance adds perspective. And, what's more, I can simply point to the figures. End of argument.
    The fact that you think you are well placed to lecture anyone tells me all I need to know about you. End of argument.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    MTimT said:

    The fact that you think you are well placed to lecture anyone tells me all I need to know about you. End of argument.

    Your ignorance of me is the most remarkable thing about that comment, but I note that you actually agree with me that there is no rational basis for the US attitude to guns. To quote your own words back at you:

    You are missing it, because it is a historical cultural legacy, not an argument based on current facts.

  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.

    I really don't think it's that. I've travelled a lot in the US, and I think the answer is much, much simpler: they just love guns so much that they don't care about the deaths. On trips to the US I used to scan through the channels on the TV, in the vain hope of finding something worth watching, and I was always struck by the extraordinarily high proportion of channels which, at any time of the day or night, would show someone with a gun. They love the excitement of guns. That's all there is to it, I reckon.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. If they are happy with so many innocent deaths, well, they are happy with them.

    I chatted to a very nice bloke from West Virginia in a bar at Charlotte airport once. He had 38 guns. I din't think he had so many because he was afraid of being attacked :-)

    Love those who have visited the States and talked to a bloke from West Virginia and so are the complete expert on US attitudes towards guns.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Speaking of Bernie, I passed through Berney Arms today (Norwich-bound only) :)
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Twitter
    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 1m1 minute ago
    If you thought the Republican Convention was out of control ... Tune into the Democratic Convention.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    It is not quite comparing like with like given that the 2015 contest had four candidates. Had it come to a run-off last year Corbyn would probably have managed circa 63%.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Wales has devolution - and its own football and rugby teams :)
    Sure, but England and Wales has a legal system (a law society, a bar, a land registry, and a prison service, as well as a judiciary), an institute of chartered accountants, a police federation and...a cricket team! :)
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 1m1 minute ago
    If you thought the Republican Convention was out of control ... Tune into the Democratic Convention.

    To top up a perfect disaster, organizationally:

    https://twitter.com/dcbigjohn/status/757714462916939776
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited July 2016
    chanting Bernie now....

    the far left are mad.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Wales has devolution - and its own football and rugby teams :)
    Sure, but England and Wales has a legal system (a judiciary, a law society, a bar, a land registry, and a prison service), an institute of chartered accountants, a police federation and...a cricket team! :)
    Cricket team? It's just called "England", innit!
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Speedy said:

    To top up a perfect disaster, organizationally:

    Well that's a mistake. A few journalists frazzled by a lightening strike would be a brilliant distraction.
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016

    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Wales has devolution - and its own football and rugby teams :)
    Sure, but England and Wales has a legal system (a judiciary, a law society, a bar, a land registry, and a prison service), an institute of chartered accountants, a police federation and...a cricket team! :)
    Cricket team? It's just called "England", innit!
    Yes but it represents England and Wales and is governed by the England and Wales Cricket Board.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    she has no choice she has to replace Kaine with Sanders.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044

    Speedy said:

    To top up a perfect disaster, organizationally:

    Well that's a mistake. A few journalists frazzled by a lightening strike would be a brilliant distraction.
    Especially ones that mix up their and they're.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAUyp6BR6-E youtube stream with "chat"
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.

    I really don't think it's that. I've travelled a lot in the US, and I think the answer is much, much simpler: they just love guns so much that they don't care about the deaths. On trips to the US I used to scan through the channels on the TV, in the vain hope of finding something worth watching, and I was always struck by the extraordinarily high proportion of channels which, at any time of the day or night, would show someone with a gun. They love the excitement of guns. That's all there is to it, I reckon.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. If they are happy with so many innocent deaths, well, they are happy with them.

    I chatted to a very nice bloke from West Virginia in a bar at Charlotte airport once. He had 38 guns. I din't think he had so many because he was afraid of being attacked :-)

    Gun collecting is a popular hobby here. I know several folks who have hundreds of weapons. I like to go to gun and knife shows - usually held at National Guard Armories for some reason - and just see what's out there and the eye watering prices charged for the more exotic specimens. Having fired - and been in awe of - the destruction wrought by a BAR - favorite weapon of Clyde Barrow, it is a rush.

    The whole gun thing is deeply embedded in the American psyche and goes back to Jamestown. You learn just to accept it, deal with it, live with it, make any adjustments needed, and move on.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    To top up a perfect disaster, organizationally:

    Well that's a mistake. A few journalists frazzled by a lightening strike would be a brilliant distraction.
    Especially ones that mix up their and they're.
    And ones that mix up lightning and lightening ;)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    IanB2 said:

    California claiming our rightful place as the worlds six biggest economy shocker...

    England is the largest regional subunit with a majority of the population with English as a mother-tongue.
    What about England and Wales, the jurisdictional subunit?
    Wales has devolution - and its own football and rugby teams :)
    Sure, but England and Wales has a legal system (a judiciary, a law society, a bar, a land registry, and a prison service), an institute of chartered accountants, a police federation and...a cricket team! :)
    Cricket team? It's just called "England", innit!
    Yes but it represents England and Wales and is governed by the England and Wales Cricket Board.
    So how come Wales has its own devolved government and flag?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    To top up a perfect disaster, organizationally:

    Well that's a mistake. A few journalists frazzled by a lightening strike would be a brilliant distraction.
    Especially ones that mix up their and they're.
    And ones that mix up lightning and lightening ;)
    Touché!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629

    I think it's trust in government.

    What people are worried about is being attacked by someone with a gun, and they choose to be armed as self-protection.

    Rather than give them a gun here, we take it away from the other guy.

    I really don't think it's that. I've travelled a lot in the US, and I think the answer is much, much simpler: they just love guns so much that they don't care about the deaths. On trips to the US I used to scan through the channels on the TV, in the vain hope of finding something worth watching, and I was always struck by the extraordinarily high proportion of channels which, at any time of the day or night, would show someone with a gun. They love the excitement of guns. That's all there is to it, I reckon.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. If they are happy with so many innocent deaths, well, they are happy with them.

    I chatted to a very nice bloke from West Virginia in a bar at Charlotte airport once. He had 38 guns. I din't think he had so many because he was afraid of being attacked :-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cun-LZvOTdw
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    It is worth noting that following recent terrorist outrages in Nice and Bavaria, police on the spot were armed and able to put a stop to the killing. Outside London, and possibly not even there, I cannot see that happening in a timely fashion in the UK.

    I would not suggest that we need a US style armed populace, but perhaps it is time to arm and train our police.
    There is some work on this front:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/boost-in-firearms-coverage-to-protect-against-terror-attacks/
    I am both glad to hear it and sad that it has become nessecary.

    The flipside of having lots of armed officers is that sooner or later the wrong person will get shot.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    I accept that the facts don't warrant a gun culture in cities. I have often made that clear. So what precisely? As you yourself point out, I started out saying this is a cultural legacy.

    MTimT said:

    The fact that you think you are well placed to lecture anyone tells me all I need to know about you. End of argument.

    Your ignorance of me is the most remarkable thing about that comment, but I note that you actually agree with me that there is no rational basis for the US attitude to guns. To quote your own words back at you:

    You are missing it, because it is a historical cultural legacy, not an argument based on current facts.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016
    MTimT said:

    I accept that the facts don't warrant a gun culture in cities. I have often made that clear. So what precisely? As you yourself point out, I started out saying this is a cultural legacy

    So we agree that the argument is spurious. I've no idea why you are so rude about it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044

    RobD said:

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    It is worth noting that following recent terrorist outrages in Nice and Bavaria, police on the spot were armed and able to put a stop to the killing. Outside London, and possibly not even there, I cannot see that happening in a timely fashion in the UK.

    I would not suggest that we need a US style armed populace, but perhaps it is time to arm and train our police.
    There is some work on this front:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/boost-in-firearms-coverage-to-protect-against-terror-attacks/
    I am both glad to hear it and sad that it has become nessecary.

    The flipside of having lots of armed officers is that sooner or later the wrong person will get shot.
    You're far more in danger as a police officer than as a general member of the public though.

    Would being armed have saved my uncle's life ? I'm not sure but there is a good argument that he should have been armed at the time he went to the incident.
    Of course gun shops no longer exist either in England either now.

    http://tinyurl.com/pcguthrie
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    15 stabbed to death in Japan.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36890655
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    The #DemsInPhilly timeline is most entertaining
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    MTimT said:

    If you live in deep country where it takes law enforcement or first responders 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, you bet you want a gun somewhere in the house. I think this is an aspect of gun ownership that most Brits miss.

    Sure, most Americans no longer live in such an environment, but a fair number do, and a very much larger number are no more than one or two generations away from that.

    Brits don't miss that at all, but they see that it's a completely spurious argument. How do they know that? Because (a) it doesn't apply in the places where the vast majority of Americans live, and no-one using that argument says that gun licences should be available only where first responders might take 20-30 minutes to respond to a 911, (b) if that were a genuine argument, no-one in the US would defend the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons, which have zero self-defence application, and (c) just look at the gun homicide, accident and suicide figures, which completely swamp any such semi-legitimate argument, and weep.
    It is worth noting that following recent terrorist outrages in Nice and Bavaria, police on the spot were armed and able to put a stop to the killing. Outside London, and possibly not even there, I cannot see that happening in a timely fashion in the UK.

    I would not suggest that we need a US style armed populace, but perhaps it is time to arm and train our police.
    All cops here are armed including with proper carbine versions of H&K assault rifles. In the big scheme of things, no major problems. Personal weapons are still taken home. You don't hear of them waving the things around every day. Its all down to the individuals and how they teach them. See no reason why other UK police services can't sort it out.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    "Cybersecurity firm Crowdstrike linked the hack to two Russian groups titled Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear. According to Crowdstrike, Cozy Bear may have been inside the DNC network since mid-2015. By implanting malware on USB devices, the Russian groups could rapidly and easily expand the scope of their targets and information.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/leaked-dnc-email-mocks-past-accusations-of-weak-cybersecurity/#ixzz4FTBQZrSj
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Boyz II MEN performed at the Democratic Convention.

    BOYZ II MEN sounds like a delivery service for Michael jackson.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John Powered
    I am as dovish as any conservative gets on immigration and I say having illegals speak from the stage strikes me as a complete gift to Trump
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    I accept that the facts don't warrant a gun culture in cities. I have often made that clear. So what precisely? As you yourself point out, I started out saying this is a cultural legacy

    So we agree that the argument is spurious. I've no idea why you are so rude about it.
    No, we don't agree that the arguments are spurious in the rural areas, nor historically, which gave rise to the gun culture that persists. But we do agree that the logic for gun ownership no longer exists in urban areas.

    What bugs me is that you grant culture so little respect. it does not fit into neat logical boxes, and some elements may be damaging, but it comes in a package. There are many elements of that cultural package that goes with the gun culture that are admirable.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    The story behind the Ansbach suicide bomber is not going to read well.

    Not surprised they planned to deport him. He didn't come to Germany clean.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    PlatoSaid said:

    John Powered
    I am as dovish as any conservative gets on immigration and I say having illegals speak from the stage strikes me as a complete gift to Trump

    Also scheduled to speak this week - mother of Mike Brown from Ferguson, and other Black Lives Matter folks. But so far apparently nobody representing cops who were shot. That should go down well in the country.

    But in the identity politics that the Democrats practice this makes perfect sense.
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    I wonder how much difference will be caused by the quasi-arbitrary 6-month cut-off date for members' franchise?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Tim_B said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    John Powered
    I am as dovish as any conservative gets on immigration and I say having illegals speak from the stage strikes me as a complete gift to Trump

    Also scheduled to speak this week - mother of Mike Brown from Ferguson, and other Black Lives Matter folks. But so far apparently nobody representing cops who were shot. That should go down well in the country.

    But in the identity politics that the Democrats practice this makes perfect sense.
    I'm beginning to think Corbyn is saner right now.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    Via Pew

    Interesting, more support for Clinton among spanish speaking hispanics (80%) than english speaking hispanics (48%) https://t.co/YPTuUPtpNA

    Top issues for Hispanic voters: economy, health care, terrorism, immigration #DemsInPhilly https://t.co/DfvbL8owCX https://t.co/7V7ZLpOyq6
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    PlatoSaid said:

    Via Pew

    Interesting, more support for Clinton among spanish speaking hispanics (80%) than english speaking hispanics (48%) https://t.co/YPTuUPtpNA

    Top issues for Hispanic voters: economy, health care, terrorism, immigration #DemsInPhilly https://t.co/DfvbL8owCX https://t.co/7V7ZLpOyq6

    and the answer is - - - Tim Kaine.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    The Fix
    Here are the latest, most damaging things in the DNC's leaked emails https://t.co/Ct1vNbGT9N https://t.co/koniEAtWJN
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I can't handle much more of his bad behaviour, disunity and disharmony. Maybe I'll binge watch Sons of Anarchy.

    Did you hear about the Pakistani guy who was so dumb he thought that Lahore was a French prostitute?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    CBS
    New @CBSNews poll shows 83 percent of republicans who watched GOP Convention now have a more favorable view of Trump https://t.co/UZJgFArVeH
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited July 2016
    "No, we don't agree that the arguments are spurious in the rural areas, nor historically, which gave rise to the gun culture that persists. But we do agree that the logic for gun ownership no longer exists in urban areas."

    I don't understand your argument about time. Say u live in a rural area. someone breaks into your house, you shoot them, half an hour later the ambulance arrives but the person is now dead. Why does it make less sense to be able to shoot( and therefore to bare arms) an intruder in an urban area where the person is more likely to survive.

    Also violent crime is more likely to take place in dense urban areas not rural ones. Therefore u could make the argument for arms in urban areas.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Bernie or bust...you're being ridiculous.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Michael Barbaro
    Bernie Delegate Network, which has around 1,200 delegates here, said it's contemplating a "formal challenge" of Tim Kaine as running mate.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Tim_B said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Via Pew

    Interesting, more support for Clinton among spanish speaking hispanics (80%) than english speaking hispanics (48%) https://t.co/YPTuUPtpNA

    Top issues for Hispanic voters: economy, health care, terrorism, immigration #DemsInPhilly https://t.co/DfvbL8owCX https://t.co/7V7ZLpOyq6

    and the answer is - - - Tim Kaine.
    Bernie or bust.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    PlatoSaid said:

    Michael Barbaro
    Bernie Delegate Network, which has around 1,200 delegates here, said it's contemplating a "formal challenge" of Tim Kaine as running mate.

    Doesn't he have about 1900 there?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Senate candidate Rep. Loretta Sanchez crashes stage at the Democratic National Convention, reports @philwillon https://t.co/sT1YhIy6QB
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    wow that sen. from Jersey.Cory Booker.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    english king.....
    goading us now.....
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    nunu said:

    english king.....
    goading us now.....

    Right, wasn't he German? :D
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    RobD said:

    nunu said:

    english king.....
    goading us now.....

    Right, wasn't he German? :D
    Lyin' Corey
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    OGH: "UPDATE Ladbrokes do have a Corbyn vote share market up but there are no obvious bargain."

    That's certainly true - Ladbrokes' share of the vote bands don't appear to offer any bands above 55% - 60% ..... that's a bit mean Shadsy!
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    JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    But hang about: 60% in a two-horse race is a lot less impressive than 60% in a four-horse one.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,929

    But hang about: 60% in a two-horse race is a lot less impressive than 60% in a four-horse one.

    True.... but it can be spun very easily as an increased majority.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    You won't believe this - Debbie Wasserman Schultz was fired as DNC chairman for her shamelessly pro-Clinton bias.

    She was hired today by Hillary Clinton as honorary chair of her 50 state campaign.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/24/debbie-wasserman-schultz-immediately-joins-hillary/
This discussion has been closed.