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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s being reported that Virginia Senator, Tim Kaine. will

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s being reported that Virginia Senator, Tim Kaine. will be named latest today as Clinton’s running mate

A message is due to go out from the Clinton campaign later today with her choice of VP nominee. All the reports suggest that she’s chosen Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia.

Read the full story here


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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    So it will be dubbed the Kaine/Unable ticket.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    Second! Like Trump.....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    FPT:
    surbiton said:

    Translation: we should have voted Remain, can you ignore the result please?

    What a very strange comment.

    Did a Leave vote mean reducing funding and support for our world class R&D and innovation base? Do you consider it unreasonable for those involved in this very important work to suggest ways in which its success can be safeguarded? I didn't have you down as a nihilist.


    Just ignore the uneducated.
    That was tried recently in a referendum.....

    ......how did it work out.....?
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    simmonitesimmonite Posts: 13
    Yes we Kaine
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    The face of a Tim. For sure.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    So it will be dubbed the Kaine/Unable ticket.

    :lol:
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,429
    Rats, I'm on Vilsack.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    Did Trump successfully scare her off picking Elizabeth Warren? Kaine seems like he will amplify the problems with her image of being in the pocket of Wall Street.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/tim-kaine-clinton-vp_us_578fc8e3e4b0bdddc4d2c86c
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    NYT on Mr Kaine:

    Mr. Kaine, the son of a welder who owned a small metalworking shop in a Kansas City suburb, could help Mrs. Clinton attract white male voters and independents. Those voters may prove more critical to her chances in November than the young liberal voters who backed Mr. Sanders in the primaries.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/us/politics/tim-kaine-hillary-clinton-vice-president.html
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Did Trump successfully scare her off picking Elizabeth Warren? Kaine seems like he will amplify the problems with her image of being in the pocket of Wall Street.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/tim-kaine-clinton-vp_us_578fc8e3e4b0bdddc4d2c86c

    OMW - that article a catnip for Trumpsters.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Tim Kaine – bodes well, a second choice based on party advantage, - way to go Clinton.
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    edited July 2016
    Just catching up with the overnight convention commentary.

    Two phrases which should send fear into the heart of conservatives and what Clinton should run with -

    1) 'Midnight in America', this is why Trump doesn't understand Brexit; the speech was wall to wall fear, just without any facts to, at least, back it up. This isn't 'project fear' it's 'project terror', and leaves a wide open space for the Democrats to exploit. He is the anti Reagan.

    2) as per Kasparov and a twist on the original 'I preferred it in the original Russian'. This is the Trump/Putin bromance writ large. The US really wants to become a Kremlin satellite state? Again, the Democrats need to run big on this. There are numerous connections, from Manafort working for Yanukovich, to encouragement for Putin to destabilise the Baltic states and the Ukraine further.

    Logically, he should be toast, but are the electorate being logical or mired in a word of 'feels? Clinton isn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination but it should be easy to expose how Trump can't get what he wants without massive tax rises and the fallout from that.

    EDIT: I imagine Warren will be announced as the likely secretary of state or some such, something with power rather than the cheerleader job of veep.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    edited July 2016
    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    Its no wonder they get such poor turnout figures, given how so much of the count is already
    decided. Why not switch to the winner of the national vote?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,664
    This thread isn't as good as the story that Michael Caine has changed his name to Michael Caine:

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/22/michael-caine-isis-islamic-state-changes-name

    Apparently not a lot of airport security staff knew that.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FPT:
    runnymede said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Morning all. The PMI figure are dire, as expected. Of course, runnymede is right that this is a measure of sentiment, and we'll have to wait to see how actual economic activity is affected over the last few months, but so far this is playing out exactly as predicted by most economists.

    One thing which is a slight surprise, though, is that the Eurozone figures look quite good. I'd have expected business confidence in the Eurozone to take a bigger hit from the referendum result, perhaps one comparable with that in the UK.

    The UK still has higher grow than France and Germany in the latest figures
    Eh?

    Have you looked at the PMIs?
    PMIs may be down and the UK no longer the fastest growing economy in the G8 but the UK still has slightly higher overall growth than France and Germany according to the IMF
    Is the IMF statement about UK, French and German growth a forecast or an actual?

    IMF forecasts have been previously been shown to be politically biased - and badly wrong.

    The PMIs by Markit have been rather accurate though.
    Not always. They have falsely signalled significant downturns on a couple of occasions in the UK over the last 20 years.

    In November 1998 the services PMI slumped from 52.1 to 47.8 and stayed in 'negative' territory for three more months. The manufacturing PMI in that period slipped to 41.6. There was no recession. Not even close.

    In Jun-Oct 2001, the services PMI slipped from 52 to 46, the manufacturing PMI was 45.5 the month after. There was no recession. Not even close.

    There is a misconception out there that these surveys measure 'real' flows of business. That is not necessarily the case at all. Some of the responses, even for the supposedly contemporaneous elements, are finger-the-air stuff.

    The data and surveys will be noisy for a couple of months more I suspect. That will provide ample opportunity for Continuity Remainers and others to read into individual releases whatever they want to.
    Sure, no indicator is perfect (PMIs are polls) but they do have fairly good predictive value. 1998 seems odd but in 2001 much of Europe went into slowdown, prevented here by Brown opening the spending taps. That may well have masked a real downturn here.

    Things were visibly slowing down even before the referendum, so I do not think it exclusively due to that. I would rather that our government took these warnings seriously rather than waiting until ambushed by events.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    I thought they didn't get any before the election and the argument came after the election because Carsewell refused to take all of what was available.
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    Completely off-topic - but it looks like jousting may be making a comeback:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/21/jousting-reasons-to-love-brexit-britain

    That is so cool. I'd pay a lot of money to go to a proper joust. Not pretend riding up and down with sticks for tourists - but hard competitive actually knocking the other dude off his horse and risk of injury be damned stuff. Serious jousting would get a serious audience these days. And serious money. Let's all hope and pray this comes off. MUCH cooler than cage fighting, and look how much money that brings in.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Did Trump successfully scare her off picking Elizabeth Warren? Kaine seems like he will amplify the problems with her image of being in the pocket of Wall Street.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/tim-kaine-clinton-vp_us_578fc8e3e4b0bdddc4d2c86c

    Huffington post is Americas Guardian, if they are against then Hilary should be for.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    http://www.scottmann.org.uk

    Er I think he will defend his seat against any lib dem surge..........
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098



    Sure, no indicator is perfect (PMIs are polls) but they do have fairly good predictive value. 1998 seems odd but in 2001 much of Europe went into slowdown, prevented here by Brown opening the spending taps. That may well have masked a real downturn here.

    Things were visibly slowing down even before the referendum, so I do not think it exclusively due to that. I would rather that our government took these warnings seriously rather than waiting until ambushed by events.

    Quite so, Doc. The UK usually has a recession every 10 years or thereabouts so we are due for one in 2017/18. Brown turning on the taps to avoid a minor recession in 2001 was, I think, a huge mistake and one for which our children and grandchildren will be paying for.

    As to the current PMIs, I would not worry too much. We have just been through several months of people telling us how our economy will crash if we voted out. We voted out, people who listened to the sages will be understandably twitchy. I also suspect that the people who respond to the PMI surveys are driven by the same sort of market sentiment that drives the City (see Bird and Fortune on YouTube for detail).
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,324
    Terrible economic news this morning. I was hoping that equilibrium would return after the initial Brexit shock, but it appears that things are much more entrenched. And where are Boris, Fox and DD? Have they secured that trade deal with Ghana yet? The country can't afford to hang around while they're off sunning themselves.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Morning all. The PMI figure are dire, as expected. Of course, runnymede is right that this is a measure of sentiment, and we'll have to wait to see how actual economic activity is affected over the last few months, but so far this is playing out exactly as predicted by most economists.

    One thing which is a slight surprise, though, is that the Eurozone figures look quite good. I'd have expected business confidence in the Eurozone to take a bigger hit from the referendum result, perhaps one comparable with that in the UK.

    The UK still has higher grow than France and Germany in the latest figures
    Eh?

    Have you looked at the PMIs?
    PMIs may be down and the UK no longer the fastest growing economy in the G8 but the UK still has slightly higher overall growth than France and Germany according to the IMF
    Is the IMF statement about UK, French and German growth a forecast or an actual?

    IMF forecasts have been previously been shown to be politically biased - and badly wrong.

    The PMIs by Markit have been rather accurate though.
    The full survey figures are, this is the first in the series for preliminary flash PMIs for the UK, there's no telling how accurate they will be.
    Isn't it rather irresponsible to roll out a new measurement at a time like this?
    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    tlg86 said:

    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

    By-election in Tatton?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Terrible economic news this morning. I was hoping that equilibrium would return after the initial Brexit shock, but it appears that things are much more entrenched. And where are Boris, Fox and DD? Have they secured that trade deal with Ghana yet? The country can't afford to hang around while they're off sunning themselves.

    I'll thcweam and thcweam til I get what I want.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

    By-election in Tatton?
    What has the IMF and the world done to deserve George?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

    By-election in Tatton?
    Could be if she has to resign to fight the case. Osborne has a lot of good will built up in the right circles to get the job and May would be happy to get him out of the Commons IMO.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Does Brown want the job too ?
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Patrick said:

    Completely off-topic - but it looks like jousting may be making a comeback:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/21/jousting-reasons-to-love-brexit-britain

    That is so cool. I'd pay a lot of money to go to a proper joust. Not pretend riding up and down with sticks for tourists - but hard competitive actually knocking the other dude off his horse and risk of injury be damned stuff. Serious jousting would get a serious audience these days. And serious money. Let's all hope and pray this comes off. MUCH cooler than cage fighting, and look how much money that brings in.

    Gosh, Mr. Patrick, you do not need to pay a lot of money to see real jousting. Carisbrooke Castle, provides it on various weekend through the summer, at very reasonable rates. I think Warwick might also.

    You may have a special time machine that enables to say what the Tilt was like in the Middle Ages, but I'll settle for what goes on now. Two men on horseback in armour with a closing speed of about 60mph is pretty damn exciting enough, even if their lances have tips that are designed to shatter on impact.

    I suppose we could go back to the A l'Outrance jousts of the earlier medieval period, but I doubt there would be much support for it, even if it could be made illegal.
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Do we hate the international community that much?
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,473
    MaxPB said:

    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

    By-election in Tatton?
    Could be if she has to resign to fight the case. Osborne has a lot of good will built up in the right circles to get the job and May would be happy to get him out of the Commons IMO.
    I suspect the IMF job would suit GO down to the ground. Also puts him on the world stage which is unlikely from the domestic front in the medium term.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Not sure what Gordon Brown wants, apart from the odd speech he appears to have disappeared from the world scene since he was evicted from No.10. If he’s been schmoosing the IMF or anyone else for that matter, it’s certainly been kept quiet.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    I think only well-respected ex-finance ministers are likely to be in the running, if a vacancy arises.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    I think only well-respected ex-finance ministers are likely to be in the running, if a vacancy arises.
    Touche. It'd be as insane as making Blair a Middle Eastern peace envoy or something!
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand. ''

    Same with my journey into Waterloo. Clapham Junction onwards is just a giant building site.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,324
    Osborne would be an inspired choice as head of the IMF. He's truly the man who found the British economy brick and left it marble. Of course, we've subsequently made the decision to imperil his legacy, so perhaps we don't deserve him anymore. Nevertheless, some good may come of it, if the rest of humanity gets to benefit from his talents.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Morning all. The PMI figure are dire, as expected. Of course, runnymede is right that this is a measure of sentiment, and we'll have to wait to see how actual economic activity is affected over the last few months, but so far this is playing out exactly as predicted by most economists.

    One thing which is a slight surprise, though, is that the Eurozone figures look quite good. I'd have expected business confidence in the Eurozone to take a bigger hit from the referendum result, perhaps one comparable with that in the UK.

    The UK still has higher grow than France and Germany in the latest figures
    Eh?

    Have you looked at the PMIs?
    PMIs may be down and the UK no longer the fastest growing economy in the G8 but the UK still has slightly higher overall growth than France and Germany according to the IMF
    Is the IMF statement about UK, French and German growth a forecast or an actual?

    IMF forecasts have been previously been shown to be politically biased - and badly wrong.

    The PMIs by Markit have been rather accurate though.
    The full survey figures are, this is the first in the series for preliminary flash PMIs for the UK, there's no telling how accurate they will be.
    Isn't it rather irresponsible to roll out a new measurement at a time like this?
    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.
    We will not bounce back above 50 until what kind of an extract of the "single market" we will end up with becomes clearer. The single market affects both exporters and importers. Importers because of the bloody paperwork we will have to do plus paying VAT and duties [ if any ] up front.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,473

    Osborne would be an inspired choice as head of the IMF. He's truly the man who found the British economy brick and left it marble. Of course, we've subsequently made the decision to imperil his legacy, so perhaps we don't deserve him anymore. Nevertheless, some good may come of it, if the rest of humanity gets to benefit from his talents.

    George's Marble-ous Medecine?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    The thing about construction is that it moves slowly, is a hell of a commitment, and the construction that you can see reflects economic conditions as they were maybe 12-18 months ago - once you've decided to commit to the site, you usually press on with it. Sometimes things might change so markedly that sites get left half-finished - as happened in 2008 - but I don't think we're in such circumstances yet.

    It will be interesting to see the crane activity in 12-18 months time. I suspect activity will have abated rather, even if economic conditions are starting to look good again, reflecting the uncertainty of summer 2016.

    I say all this without making any judgement either way of current economic circumstances except that investors may, sensibly, currently be in wait-and-see mode.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    But those construction decisions were taken months / years ago.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    I suppose we shouldn't prejudge the outcome of the Lagarde case but taking this together with the circumstances in which her predecessor had to step down, you have to wonder what kind of recruitment process the IMF uses for its senior staff.
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    BigIanBigIan Posts: 198
    edited July 2016

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
  • Options
    wasdwasd Posts: 276
    taffys said:

    ''I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand. ''

    Same with my journey into Waterloo. Clapham Junction onwards is just a giant building site.

    Birmingham, Coventry and York have a reasonable chunk of activity too.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tlg86 said:

    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fit and proper person...

    France’s highest appeals court ruled on Friday that IMF chief Christine Lagarde must stand trial for her role in a €400m payout as French finance minister in 2008 to businessman Bernard Tapie.

    The court rejected her appeal against a judge’s order in December for her to stand trial at the Cour de Justice de la Repulique, a special court that tries ministers for crimes in office.

    By-election in Tatton?
    What has the IMF and the world done to deserve George?
    You are right. It should be Dominique Strauss-Kahn . Unless he wants to be President.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    Put simply, PMIs are looking to the future. If they drop below 50, *breaks into song* there may be trouble ahead...

  • Options
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
    According to the current 538 forecast Trump needs a 2.2% swing to win

    This gives him all the Romney states (206) + Florida (29), Iowa (6), Ohio (18), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4) and Pennsylvania (20)

    Pennsylvania is the toughest nut to crack. With a 1% swing Hillary would win 271-269
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    BigIan said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
    They only short list people with a stench of financial or sexual irregularity. Also, French.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Morning all. The PMI figure are dire, as expected. Of course, runnymede is right that this is a measure of sentiment, and we'll have to wait to see how actual economic activity is affected over the last few months, but so far this is playing out exactly as predicted by most economists.

    One thing which is a slight surprise, though, is that the Eurozone figures look quite good. I'd have expected business confidence in the Eurozone to take a bigger hit from the referendum result, perhaps one comparable with that in the UK.

    The UK still has higher grow than France and Germany in the latest figures
    Eh?

    Have you looked at the PMIs?
    PMIs may be down and the UK no longer the fastest growing economy in the G8 but the UK still has slightly higher overall growth than France and Germany according to the IMF
    Is the IMF statement about UK, French and German growth a forecast or an actual?

    IMF forecasts have been previously been shown to be politically biased - and badly wrong.

    The PMIs by Markit have been rather accurate though.
    The full survey figures are, this is the first in the series for preliminary flash PMIs for the UK, there's no telling how accurate they will be.
    Isn't it rather irresponsible to roll out a new measurement at a time like this?
    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.
    Rather irresponsibly, potentially?

  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BigIan said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
    Short answer is I have no idea – I would assume however, that if there was no parliamentary representation the SM would stop.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,473
    John_M said:

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    Put simply, PMIs are looking to the future. If they drop below 50, *breaks into song* there may be trouble ahead...

    Who knew that tearing up 50 years of UK foreign and economic policy would cause issues?
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Morning all. The PMI figure are dire, as expected. Of course, runnymede is right that this is a measure of sentiment, and we'll have to wait to see how actual economic activity is affected over the last few months, but so far this is playing out exactly as predicted by most economists.

    One thing which is a slight surprise, though, is that the Eurozone figures look quite good. I'd have expected business confidence in the Eurozone to take a bigger hit from the referendum result, perhaps one comparable with that in the UK.

    The UK still has higher grow than France and Germany in the latest figures
    Eh?

    Have you looked at the PMIs?
    PMIs may be down and the UK no longer the fastest growing economy in the G8 but the UK still has slightly higher overall growth than France and Germany according to the IMF
    Is the IMF statement about UK, French and German growth a forecast or an actual?

    IMF forecasts have been previously been shown to be politically biased - and badly wrong.

    The PMIs by Markit have been rather accurate though.
    The full survey figures are, this is the first in the series for preliminary flash PMIs for the UK, there's no telling how accurate they will be.
    Isn't it rather irresponsible to roll out a new measurement at a time like this?
    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.
    Rather irresponsibly, potentially?

    Not really. It's a Twitter storm. People actually running businesses will have their own ground truth.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
    According to the current 538 forecast Trump needs a 2.2% swing to win

    This gives him all the Romney states (206) + Florida (29), Iowa (6), Ohio (18), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4) and Pennsylvania (20)

    Pennsylvania is the toughest nut to crack. With a 1% swing Hillary would win 271-269
    Hispanics voted Romney 27%. I can't see Trump getting even 20%. So you cannot even start with 206.

    Apparently, the biblical wall will be built by Americans only.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,473
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
    According to the current 538 forecast Trump needs a 2.2% swing to win

    This gives him all the Romney states (206) + Florida (29), Iowa (6), Ohio (18), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4) and Pennsylvania (20)

    Pennsylvania is the toughest nut to crack. With a 1% swing Hillary would win 271-269
    Hispanics voted Romney 27%. I can't see Trump getting even 20%. So you cannot even start with 206.

    Apparently, the biblical wall will be built by Americans only.
    Most of them got wiped out by settlers...
  • Options
    BigIanBigIan Posts: 198

    BigIan said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
    Short answer is I have no idea – I would assume however, that if there was no parliamentary representation the SM would stop.
    I don't see why by-elections wouldn't count, but the rules only seem to reference GEs. Same with crossing the floor, or MPs setting up a new party from scratch.

    So in that regard, the rules appear to be quite mystifying. You'd have thought they might have drafted them a bit better, wouldn't you?
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    ToryJim said:

    John_M said:

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    Put simply, PMIs are looking to the future. If they drop below 50, *breaks into song* there may be trouble ahead...

    Who knew that tearing up 50 years of UK foreign and economic policy would cause issues?
    Well quite. However, let's compose ourselves with patience and see what the next couple of actual PMI reports show. The survey period covered 12th-21st July. May won the leadership on the 14th and had her first cabinet meeting on the 19th. Hence I think it's reasonable to say that we still looked a bit rudderless during the survey itself.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    @HurstLlama:

    The PMI measures change in activity.

    To go above 50 there would need to be more activity that there is now. That is, not only do they have to be building on your street, but on the next door one.

    The total amount of homes under construction in London is now at an all time high. Anything other that maintaining the current pace would result in a sub-50 number,
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,027

    Osborne would be an inspired choice as head of the IMF. He's truly the man who found the British economy brick and left it marble. Of course, we've subsequently made the decision to imperil his legacy, so perhaps we don't deserve him anymore. Nevertheless, some good may come of it, if the rest of humanity gets to benefit from his talents.

    To quote Mrs May, he over promised and under delivered... That sounds about right for the IMF
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
    According to the current 538 forecast Trump needs a 2.2% swing to win

    This gives him all the Romney states (206) + Florida (29), Iowa (6), Ohio (18), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4) and Pennsylvania (20)

    Pennsylvania is the toughest nut to crack. With a 1% swing Hillary would win 271-269
    Nevada, with its large hispanic population, will likely be unwinnable for Trump.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,795
    The difference between Brexit and the 2008 Credit Crunch in my view is that Brexit is a chronic condition while the latter was an acute one. The difference between diabetes or hepatitis and a heart attack. The key point about a chronic condition is that you can live with it. You may not even know it's there. You just feel ill. And because we can live with Brexit we will. It won't be a disaster like the 2008 Credit Crunch. If it were we would be looking to reverse the decision.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    John_M said:

    Well quite. However, let's compose ourselves with patience and see what the next couple of actual PMI reports show. The survey period covered 12th-21st July. May won the leadership on the 14th and had her first cabinet meeting on the 19th. Hence I think it's reasonable to say that we still looked a bit rudderless during the survey itself.

    Yes, indeed so. In fact Chris Williamson of MarkIt confirmed that things were better once the new PM was in place, and the risk of Andrea Leadsom ending up as PM or Chancellor had been removed:

    @WilliamsonChris
    Though we did see signs of confidence starting to lift later into the month as the new government took shape


    For that reason I think MaxPB is right to expect an improvement from these latest figures. On the other hand, it is also possible that the markets and business are currently under-estimating the risk of a messy Brexit.

    The big picture remains unchanged from pre-referendum expectations of the immediate aftermath of a Leave result: there will be a sustained period of business, economic and political uncertainty, which will have a negative impact on the 'real' economy. How deep, and for how long, remains very unclear.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Snort.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    I agree with this. The construction figures from both PMI and the ONS simply don't seem to make any sense when compared against what we can all see all around us. I think they prove to be a significant source of upward revisals in GDP over time but the tendency to understate them persists.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Snort.
    He's very highly regarded, I'll have you know. Said nobody ever.
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,902
    edited July 2016
    surbiton said:

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    But those construction decisions were taken months / years ago.
    Indeed. There's a shopping centre under construction just down the road from me, but the decision to build it was taken about a year ago. Whether they'll be able to profitably rent out all the units is another question.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    A little (or for some of us, not so little) trip down memory lane....


    http://visual.ons.gov.uk/whats-in-the-basket-of-goods-80-years-of-shopping-history/
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Snort.
    He's very highly regarded, I'll have you know. Said nobody ever.
    Not true. He's said it himself. Several times....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    A little (or for some of us, not so little) trip down memory lane....


    http://visual.ons.gov.uk/whats-in-the-basket-of-goods-80-years-of-shopping-history/

    That's very good!
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Does Brown want the job too ?

    Snort.
    He's very highly regarded, I'll have you know. Said nobody ever.
    He saved the world!
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    surbiton said:

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    But those construction decisions were taken months / years ago.
    Indeed. There's a shopping centre under construction just down the road from me, but the decision to build it was taken about a year ago. Whether they'll be able to profitably rent out all the units is another question.
    I've been looking at business life cycles recently. Because we all have limited information, it's easy to forget how large the economy is, and how good times and bad times are just shifts in frequency distributions.

    In terms of company births were concerned, the nadir was in 2010, when only 235k companies started (compared to 350k in 2014). In terms of deaths, 248k died in 2010 and 245k in 2014, though the worst year for deaths was 2009 (277k).

    There literally hundreds of companies starting up and closing down every single day. It's the ratios that tell us what is actually happening in the economy.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:



    Obviously there was demand for the preliminary figures this time so Markit provided them.

    In general I think we're going to see final figures bounce back a little. I think this is what we'll see:

    Manufacturing 49.8-50.2
    Services 48.7-49.1
    Construction 45-46

    Composite reading of 48.9-49.1

    Not great but not a disaster outside of construction. From what I can tell sentiment got better the moment we had a prime minister and the uncertainty over who that would be ended. If that race was still going and the Leadbangers were forcing May into making unfavourable concessions on the future negotiations I would have expected the weakness and uncertainty to continue. As it stands I think we're looking at a bounce back to around 50 in the near term which is where we'll stay until the government agrees a package with the EU.

    Mr. Max, you are a knowledgeable chap perhaps you can explain these construction PMIs to me.

    Everywhere I go I see building activity, the like of which I am not sure I have ever seen before. Houses seem to be being thrown up on every available plot of land, including those that were previously deemed unsuitable for building. When I go up to Town I see a forest of tower cranes, ditto in Leeds, ditto in Cambridge. Building is happening everywhere and at frenetic pace.

    So the question I hope you can answer is how the feck can the PMI be showing, still, that the construction sector is heading for recession? What friggin lead times are these people working to?

    Maybe the people who make up the surveys are just a bunch of wankers repeating what they have heard/read from the media.

    I dunno, I ask in a spirit of trying to understand.
    I agree with this. The construction figures from both PMI and the ONS simply don't seem to make any sense when compared against what we can all see all around us. I think they prove to be a significant source of upward revisals in GDP over time but the tendency to understate them persists.
    These are not GDP figures. GDP is about output. PMI [ Purchasing Managers Index ] is about Orders received NOW.

    A lot of the orders received now will become output in the immediate/near/future periods.
  • Options
    NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 725
    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    Its no wonder they get such poor turnout figures, given how so much of the count is already
    decided. Why not switch to the winner of the national vote?
    That would be logical and much preferable in my opinion. You might be interested in this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    BigIan said:

    BigIan said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
    Short answer is I have no idea – I would assume however, that if there was no parliamentary representation the SM would stop.
    I don't see why by-elections wouldn't count, but the rules only seem to reference GEs. Same with crossing the floor, or MPs setting up a new party from scratch.

    So in that regard, the rules appear to be quite mystifying. You'd have thought they might have drafted them a bit better, wouldn't you?
    They did not think about it. The Tories, Labour and the Liberals were not worried about anyone else.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    A little (or for some of us, not so little) trip down memory lane....


    http://visual.ons.gov.uk/whats-in-the-basket-of-goods-80-years-of-shopping-history/

    That’s awesome – some real blasts from the past, starting with Captain Birdseye. (1962, eek)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:



    I agree with this. The construction figures from both PMI and the ONS simply don't seem to make any sense when compared against what we can all see all around us. I think they prove to be a significant source of upward revisals in GDP over time but the tendency to understate them persists.
    These are not GDP figures. GDP is about output. PMI [ Purchasing Managers Index ] is about Orders received NOW.

    A lot of the orders received now will become output in the immediate/near/future periods.
    Sure, but the construction figures are consistently negative even when it can be seen with the benefit of hindsight that a lot of orders were being placed. This has led to a lot of discussions about when the order is relevant, when the contract is placed, the work started, etc.

    The ONS figures are even worse. They consistently find that construction is a drag on the actual economy. And all over southern England in particular there are cranes pretty much everywhere.

    A pause in new orders in light of the uncertainty of Brexit does make sense. I am aware of some projects that were on hold pending the result and it will take time for these to come through given the result. But when you look at where PMIs have forecast slowdowns that did not occur construction is often at the root of it.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2016
    Does the IMF job need uk Govt support for Brown(hypothetically of course) being proposed as IMF chief? If it is indeed the case, as long as Corbynites are in charge of Labour(never in Govt), that support will never ever be forthcoming.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,429
    DavidL said:
    Bloody brilliant. I particularly like: "Behold Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit."
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Osborne would be an inspired choice as head of the IMF. He's truly the man who found the British economy brick and left it marble. Of course, we've subsequently made the decision to imperil his legacy, so perhaps we don't deserve him anymore. Nevertheless, some good may come of it, if the rest of humanity gets to benefit from his talents.

    Osborne built his reputation for success while he was part of the Coalition Government, and was to a fair extent under the control of Clegg and Alexander. Not totally so, so he had his lapses even with the Coalition Government.

    Once the Conservatives managed to cheat their way back into being a majority government, Osborne was no longer under control. So he became a total disaster area.

    He might be reasonable at the IMF, if he had Danny Alexander at this side telling him what to do.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397

    DavidL said:
    Bloody brilliant. I particularly like: "Behold Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit."
    Someone quoted a tweet from him this morning. "She is wrong about everything but she is wrong within the normal parameters."

    For me that sums up the entire US race.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:



    I agree with this. The construction figures from both PMI and the ONS simply don't seem to make any sense when compared against what we can all see all around us. I think they prove to be a significant source of upward revisals in GDP over time but the tendency to understate them persists.
    These are not GDP figures. GDP is about output. PMI [ Purchasing Managers Index ] is about Orders received NOW.

    A lot of the orders received now will become output in the immediate/near/future periods.
    Sure, but the construction figures are consistently negative even when it can be seen with the benefit of hindsight that a lot of orders were being placed. This has led to a lot of discussions about when the order is relevant, when the contract is placed, the work started, etc.

    The ONS figures are even worse. They consistently find that construction is a drag on the actual economy. And all over southern England in particular there are cranes pretty much everywhere.

    A pause in new orders in light of the uncertainty of Brexit does make sense. I am aware of some projects that were on hold pending the result and it will take time for these to come through given the result. But when you look at where PMIs have forecast slowdowns that did not occur construction is often at the root of it.
    PMI is a relative as well as forward looking measure. Does that make sense? It's not measuring absolutes. It's a derivative, so it measures the slope of a continuous curve.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    New track surface at Hungary. Slightly chewing up tyres more than usual. Two stops likely, if dry. Not checked a forecast lately, the early one indicated rain was possible for the race.

    McLaren surprisingly good.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:



    I agree with this. The construction figures from both PMI and the ONS simply don't seem to make any sense when compared against what we can all see all around us. I think they prove to be a significant source of upward revisals in GDP over time but the tendency to understate them persists.
    These are not GDP figures. GDP is about output. PMI [ Purchasing Managers Index ] is about Orders received NOW.

    A lot of the orders received now will become output in the immediate/near/future periods.
    Sure, but the construction figures are consistently negative even when it can be seen with the benefit of hindsight that a lot of orders were being placed. This has led to a lot of discussions about when the order is relevant, when the contract is placed, the work started, etc.

    The ONS figures are even worse. They consistently find that construction is a drag on the actual economy. And all over southern England in particular there are cranes pretty much everywhere.

    A pause in new orders in light of the uncertainty of Brexit does make sense. I am aware of some projects that were on hold pending the result and it will take time for these to come through given the result. But when you look at where PMIs have forecast slowdowns that did not occur construction is often at the root of it.
    PMI is a relative as well as forward looking measure. Does that make sense? It's not measuring absolutes. It's a derivative, so it measures the slope of a continuous curve.
    Alternatively its being so cheerful that keeps those in construction going.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    NeilVW said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    Its no wonder they get such poor turnout figures, given how so much of the count is already
    decided. Why not switch to the winner of the national vote?
    That would be logical and much preferable in my opinion. You might be interested in this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
    I'm not sure that would help much, it would likely switch the campaigning from perceived swing states to big metropolitan areas. A quarter of the US population live in just 10 conurbations (NY, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Washington, Philly, Miami, Atlanta, Boston) - and half in the top 44 (some of which really are merged, such as SF and San Jose).
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    PClipp said:

    Osborne would be an inspired choice as head of the IMF. He's truly the man who found the British economy brick and left it marble. Of course, we've subsequently made the decision to imperil his legacy, so perhaps we don't deserve him anymore. Nevertheless, some good may come of it, if the rest of humanity gets to benefit from his talents.

    Osborne built his reputation for success while he was part of the Coalition Government, and was to a fair extent under the control of Clegg and Alexander. Not totally so, so he had his lapses even with the Coalition Government.

    Once the Conservatives managed to cheat their way back into being a majority government, Osborne was no longer under control. So he became a total disaster area.

    He might be reasonable at the IMF, if he had Danny Alexander at this side telling him what to do.
    Still bitter at the 2015 result?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,429
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:
    Bloody brilliant. I particularly like: "Behold Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit."
    Someone quoted a tweet from him this morning. "She is wrong about everything but she is wrong within the normal parameters."

    For me that sums up the entire US race.
    Peggy Noonan is interesting. Basically nobody who normally knows (or claims to know) i.e. all the usual commentators, pollsters, analysts, retired GOP politicians, knows what will happen.

    "The shrewdest old political pro, the brightest young delegate, the owlish political journalist—they didn’t know exactly what they were witnessing. Was it the formal start of an epic political disaster? The birth of a new GOP more identified with the struggles of its base? Is 2016 a particular and contained event, or does it mark the beginning of some long-term realignment? As for Mr. Trump, is he a lightning storm that lit things up, caused some damage, will play itself out and pass? Or is he an earthquake that changed the actual shape of things, the literal lay of the land?"
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    John_M said:

    Well quite. However, let's compose ourselves with patience and see what the next couple of actual PMI reports show. The survey period covered 12th-21st July. May won the leadership on the 14th and had her first cabinet meeting on the 19th. Hence I think it's reasonable to say that we still looked a bit rudderless during the survey itself.

    Yes, indeed so. In fact Chris Williamson of MarkIt confirmed that things were better once the new PM was in place, and the risk of Andrea Leadsom ending up as PM or Chancellor had been removed:

    @WilliamsonChris
    Though we did see signs of confidence starting to lift later into the month as the new government took shape


    For that reason I think MaxPB is right to expect an improvement from these latest figures. On the other hand, it is also possible that the markets and business are currently under-estimating the risk of a messy Brexit.

    The big picture remains unchanged from pre-referendum expectations of the immediate aftermath of a Leave result: there will be a sustained period of business, economic and political uncertainty, which will have a negative impact on the 'real' economy. How deep, and for how long, remains very unclear.
    Oh stop it Richard. You lost. You have no insight of any sort on this issue, and your spinning is tiresome and repetitive.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    BigIan said:

    BigIan said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 fpt

    For sdp2 they aren't counting voted they are counting seats

    If carswell (defecting mp) counts towards no + 150,000 votes then presumably 2 defecting mps + 0 votes would also qualify.

    What I don't remember is whether ukip got the money before or after the last election.

    Not seen or read anything regarding UKIP short money on the two defections and subsequent by-election wins, can only assume they got zilch – It only became an issue when Carswell, standing for UKIP won his seat and the party became eligible. And that’s when the fun really began.
    If UKIP lost their seat at a by-election, for some reason, would they continue to get the short money, because they won it at the last GE? Even with no MPs left?
    Short answer is I have no idea – I would assume however, that if there was no parliamentary representation the SM would stop.
    I don't see why by-elections wouldn't count, but the rules only seem to reference GEs. Same with crossing the floor, or MPs setting up a new party from scratch.

    So in that regard, the rules appear to be quite mystifying. You'd have thought they might have drafted them a bit better, wouldn't you?
    It will be a very big decision for the Speaker, especially if the new party is big enough to be the official Opposition.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    On topic - surely the Democrat boards saying "Clinton Kaine" will be changed to "Clinton Can't" by the Republicans?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    runnymede said:

    Oh stop it Richard. You lost. You have no insight of any sort on this issue, and your spinning is tiresome and repetitive.

    You used to be a sensible poster before you lost your marbles over the referendum, but now you are just tiresomely rude. If you have anything sensible to say about the substance of what I wrote, I am sure PBers would be interested to hear it.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    runnymede said:

    John_M said:

    Well quite. However, let's compose ourselves with patience and see what the next couple of actual PMI reports show. The survey period covered 12th-21st July. May won the leadership on the 14th and had her first cabinet meeting on the 19th. Hence I think it's reasonable to say that we still looked a bit rudderless during the survey itself.

    Yes, indeed so. In fact Chris Williamson of MarkIt confirmed that things were better once the new PM was in place, and the risk of Andrea Leadsom ending up as PM or Chancellor had been removed:

    @WilliamsonChris
    Though we did see signs of confidence starting to lift later into the month as the new government took shape


    For that reason I think MaxPB is right to expect an improvement from these latest figures. On the other hand, it is also possible that the markets and business are currently under-estimating the risk of a messy Brexit.

    The big picture remains unchanged from pre-referendum expectations of the immediate aftermath of a Leave result: there will be a sustained period of business, economic and political uncertainty, which will have a negative impact on the 'real' economy. How deep, and for how long, remains very unclear.
    Oh stop it Richard. You lost. You have no insight of any sort on this issue, and your spinning is tiresome and repetitive.
    I don't think Richard said anything particularly controversial. There is a non-negligible chance the UK will have a recession in the next 18 months. And the longer we go without an outline of what Britain's relationship with the EU will look like post-Brexit, the more serious this is likely to be.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:
    Bloody brilliant. I particularly like: "Behold Jimmy Carter in a pantsuit."
    Someone quoted a tweet from him this morning. "She is wrong about everything but she is wrong within the normal parameters."

    For me that sums up the entire US race.
    Peggy Noonan is interesting. Basically nobody who normally knows (or claims to know) i.e. all the usual commentators, pollsters, analysts, retired GOP politicians, knows what will happen.

    "The shrewdest old political pro, the brightest young delegate, the owlish political journalist—they didn’t know exactly what they were witnessing. Was it the formal start of an epic political disaster? The birth of a new GOP more identified with the struggles of its base? Is 2016 a particular and contained event, or does it mark the beginning of some long-term realignment? As for Mr. Trump, is he a lightning storm that lit things up, caused some damage, will play itself out and pass? Or is he an earthquake that changed the actual shape of things, the literal lay of the land?"
    Trump should not even have been a contender in a republican field that included successful State Governors, Senators and the Bush dynasty. His achievement in winning the nomination is truly incredible and anyone underestimating the currents that he has found is a fool. As in the case of Brexit there are very large numbers of people in the US who have not shared in recent prosperity and they are not happy about it or about the political elite that has taken them for granted.

    I find the idea of Trump as President alarming but I cannot find it improbable.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    With Trump clearly pitching for the white blue collar vote in a tight national race he probably wins Ohio and North Carolina and Florida and maybe NH and Hillary needs to win Iowa, Nevada and Colorado and Virginia, hence she picks Kaine. The election is then decided in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and its suburbs v the more rural, rustbelt parts of the state

    The White Blue Collar vote is not as large as it used to be. Not even comparable to our WWC. Trump will get far fewer Hispanic votes than even Romney. Nowhere near GWB who got an incredible 44%.
    According to the current 538 forecast Trump needs a 2.2% swing to win

    This gives him all the Romney states (206) + Florida (29), Iowa (6), Ohio (18), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4) and Pennsylvania (20)

    Pennsylvania is the toughest nut to crack. With a 1% swing Hillary would win 271-269
    Nevada, with its large hispanic population, will likely be unwinnable for Trump.
    Did u see what Michael Moore said about the rust belt?
This discussion has been closed.