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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Nighthawks

SystemSystem Posts: 11,765
edited July 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Nighthawks

If you’re a lurker, this thread is Especially For You,  ignore the Better The Devil You Know, and delurk tonight. I Should Be So Lucky if a few of you choose to delurk tonight.

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  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,644
    Democracy didn't last too long in Egypt, did it:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,644
    edited July 2013
    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013
    “Class sizes are rising. When the Labour government came to office, the number of infants being taught in class sizes over 30 was a quarter. When we left it was just 1.8 per cent. It’s doubled on his watch.”
    Ed Miliband, Prime Minister’s Questions, 3 July 2013


    I understand Ed M making this point, and I'm sure it is one most people would think a terrible statistic, and one Cameron would no doubt wish to rebut because he sees it as damaging.

    That being said, while no-one likes the idea of classes being too large, I have to say that the Infant Class Size limit is an arbitrary and far too rigid restriction which actually causes quite a lot of distress and absurd (yet not legally unreasonable or peverse) decisions about school places, where a little more flexibility, particularly for schools which have shown when admitting over the limit (following appeals/statemented children etc) they are still outstanding, would be far more agreeable.

    But politically it would look disastrous to renege on the promise to restrict to 30 at any cost, so it's here to stay, even if the level needed to go over is too restrictive in its desire to protect the limit.

    From Local Government Ombudsman:

    Most parents who have been refused a place at their preferred school consider this refusal to be perverse. But the word has a stronger meaning in its legal sense. It means ‘beyond the range of responses open to a reasonable decision maker’, or ‘a decision which is so outrageous in its defiance of logic or of accepted moral standards that no sensible person who had applied his mind to the question could have arrived at it’. A decision that makes it impossible for you to transport all your family to school on time, or even impossible for you to continue working, is very unlikely to be perverse. The courts have established this.

    If the admissions authority had refused a place to a child whose family had had to move house under a witness protection scheme, a panel might decide that the decision was perverse. But it is the panel’s decision. We will not question that decision if the panel followed the correct procedures in reaching it.

    http://www.lgo.org.uk/publications/fact-sheets/complaints-about-infant-class-sizes/
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095
    edited July 2013
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    I hope not.

    Belgium was created to annoy the French.
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    I hope not.

    Belgium was created to annoy the French.
    ... and UKIP!

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,291

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    I hope not.

    Belgium was created to annoy the French.
    Thought the idea was a buffer state.
  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    Who'll be first? Flanders, Catalonia, Quebec or Scotland?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    tim said:

    @kle4

    I think Gove's plan is to increase class sizes in other state schools to the same number of pupils attending a Free School in total.

    I'll take your word for it, it's just a pet peeve of mine the ICS limit in general, so a jump in the size of classes in of itself would not concern me because of principle, only if quality of education was definitely going down to (as it often might, but it is not something that is automatic or inevitable)
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    I hope not.

    Belgium was created to annoy the French.
    Thought the idea was a buffer state.
    That's not that De Gaulle thought.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,141
    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    In a statement on social media, Mohammed Morsi has denounced the army's announcement as a military coup and called for the restoration of the constitution.

    Should he have said 'restoration'? I mean, surely he will argue the constitution doesn't need to be restored as it is still in place as the army lacks authority to dismiss it, it's just people are ignoring it.
  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Indyref market:

    I tried to get 155 GBP on Yes tonight over at Hills (at 4/1). The b*****s would only allow me 50 GBP. Must still be smarting over their May 2011 losses.

    How on earth can someone walk into a shop and place 200,000 GBP on No, but you're only allowed a measly 50 quid on Yes?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    Who'll be first? Flanders, Catalonia, Quebec or Scotland?

    Somaliland? Ah, it'll never happen.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    Who'll be first? Flanders, Catalonia, Quebec or Scotland?

    It is possible that the EU could have three countries dissolving within a short space of time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The King of Belgium has announced his future abdication tonight:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525

    And so goes a united Belgium?
    I hope not.

    Belgium was created to annoy the French.
    Thought the idea was a buffer state.
    You don't find buffers annoying?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013
    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    Belgium's eastern border area is german speaking, I suspect they'd rather go back to the Vaterland,
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited July 2013
    Extraordinarily inept article by the Guardian's Economics correspondent about today's blockbuster Services PMI data, where he fails to understand what PMI data actually means and shows he can't read the ONS Index of Services - Index is back to pre-recession levels and 4.5% above the April 2010 level.

    "Yet the Markit/CIPS index of the services sector in June is only back to its March 2011 level, so the coalition government has yet to drag the sector back to the position it inherited from Labour. Worse, figures from the Office for National Statistics show that output in the sector remains below its 2008 peak."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2013/jul/03/service-sector-rise-economy


    In better news, its also worth pointing out that today's Service PMI data showed hiring at its strongest level since August 2007.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    When I first started work I got myself in a difficult situation. I went down to my boss and explained the situation. He got on the speaker phone and shouted abuse at the solicitor on the other side explaining vigorously as to why it was all their fault. Eventually a resolution was found.

    When the call was finished he turned to me and told me not to be so ******* stupid again. Great boss.

    This story has nothing to do with any current news story.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919
    (Somewhat a repeat FPT) Democracy is really important - I support it. On the other hand anyone (absolutely anyone) that wants to govern on the basis of religion I oppose wholeheartedly. I think I have to support Morsi on that basis.

    Of course my support or otherwise has no relevance whatsoever. The Egyptians will decide for themselves, but nevertheless it isn't wrong to think about what your views may or may not be. I'm struggling.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Once again sexual attacks besmerch the protesters in Cairo:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4400527,00.html
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013
    The Chief Justice of Egypt who retired a few days ago picked the right time, I think.

    If this was all to get people to yearn for the firm hand of the military and police from before the revolution again, then well played Egyptian armed forces.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.
  • Options
    I'm not always the biggest fan of Al Jazeera but their coverage from Egypt is tremendous - well worth tuning in to.
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    '"We have allowed schools of fifty pupils to compete with schools of fifty pupils per class in the interests of parantal choice.'

    So what's Labour's policy on Free schools?

    Scrap them?
    Do another u-turn?
    Or wait for direction from Mystic Meg?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    Do NOT miss the link to the Morning Star by the way: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/134969

    Pure stand up. Just brilliant. Unless you are Ed in which case you might feel a tad embarrassed.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Egypt: Looks as if my post earlier this afternoon that the Egyptian military had turned up at State TV dressed in their best uniforms was correct.

    What we are not seeing is that sweep is going on of Muslim Brotherhood figures. There is a rumour Morsi is one of those lifted, Twitter feed or not. No verification yet on this but it would be remiss of the Brotherhood not to have got key people out of the way.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,600
    PPP 2016 GOP Ted Cruz 27%
    Jeb Bush 15% (11%)
    Chris Christie 11% (9%)
    Rand Paul 11% (13%)
    Paul Ryan 9% (11%)
    Rick Perry 7% (4%)
    Marco Rubio 6% (21%)
    Rick Santorum 4%
    Bobby Jindal 3% (4%)
    Someone else/Not sure 8% (10%

    Texas General

    Chris Christie (R) 47% (43%)
    Hillary Clinton (D) 38% (45%)
    Ted Cruz (R) 49%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 44%
    Jeb Bush (R) 46%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 43%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 48% (50%)
    Rick Perry (R) 44% (42%)
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919
    john_zims said:

    So what's Labour's policy on Free schools?

    I'd be very surprised if they didn't get renamed as 'community schools' if Labour get back in again.

  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    - "Margaret Thatcher’s right to buy for council tenants is being scrapped in Scotland"

    Guess who helped get the legislation through parliament, back in 2010 when it was still a minority SNP government, which needed the support of other parties to get bills onto the statute book?

    Yep, that's right, the Scottish Lib Dems. A different breed from the English ones.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    HYUFD said:

    PPP 2016 GOP Ted Cruz 27%
    Jeb Bush 15% (11%)
    Chris Christie 11% (9%)
    Rand Paul 11% (13%)
    Paul Ryan 9% (11%)
    Rick Perry 7% (4%)
    Marco Rubio 6% (21%)
    Rick Santorum 4%
    Bobby Jindal 3% (4%)
    Someone else/Not sure 8% (10%

    Texas General

    Chris Christie (R) 47% (43%)
    Hillary Clinton (D) 38% (45%)
    Ted Cruz (R) 49%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 44%
    Jeb Bush (R) 46%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 43%
    Hillary Clinton (D) 48% (50%)
    Rick Perry (R) 44% (42%)

    Is there not a strong movement to bar anyone called Bush from being President by the 28th amendment to the Constitution? If not, why not?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    Nick Compton clearly doesn't want to be considered for an England spot again if the opportunity arises.

    Nick Compton believes he has not been given a chance by the England selectors after being dropped for their warm-up match against Essex.

    I don't think they like whining, even if justified.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23174449
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Ah for the good old days of 1913 when the world was run from a half dozen european capitals.

    What could possibly go wrong?


    r

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919


    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.

    If this involves sending Sir Clare Balding in harms way then I'm all for it.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    edited July 2013

    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.

    BBC sports would seriously slow them down. The roads would be clogged solid with expensive vans and equipment and every restaurant would be full.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    edited July 2013
    @ Mr Sox

    of course thinking abut it 100 years on the world still is run by about just over half a dozen countries. What could possibly go wrong indeed ?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    Two more people, including a serving constable, have been arrested by police investigating the "plebgate" row.

    A continually disgusting state of affairs that.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23170959
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809

    Ah for the good old days of 1913 when the world was run from a half dozen european capitals.

    What could possibly go wrong?


    r

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.
    lol - quite a lot as it happens.
    Oh surely not, I'm sure we'd have heard about something like that :)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,070
    Good evening, everyone.

    Military deposes democratically elected leader, the people rise up to, um, celebrate.

    Interesting world we live in.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013

    Good evening, everyone.

    Military deposes democratically elected leader, the people rise up to, um, celebrate.

    Interesting world we live in.

    Senator Amidala: So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.

    Don't many military coups usually at least start off popular though?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    kle4 said:

    Ah for the good old days of 1913 when the world was run from a half dozen european capitals.

    What could possibly go wrong?


    r

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.
    lol - quite a lot as it happens.
    Oh surely not, I'm sure we'd have heard about something like that :)
    do you live in Norfolk by any chance ? ;-)
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think it is just the urban population celebrating, and probably just part of that.

    Does anyone have the results of last years Egyptian vote to hand. I suspect Morsi had most of his support in the countryside.

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Good evening, everyone.

    Military deposes democratically elected leader, the people rise up to, um, celebrate.

    Interesting world we live in.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809

    kle4 said:

    Ah for the good old days of 1913 when the world was run from a half dozen european capitals.

    What could possibly go wrong?


    r

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    I second that Mr Eagles, but the next time the Prussian Army takes a daytrip to Belgium, just let's send SkyNews or BBC Sports.
    lol - quite a lot as it happens.
    Oh surely not, I'm sure we'd have heard about something like that :)
    do you live in Norfolk by any chance ? ;-)
    Heh. Afraid not. West Country bumpkin over here.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095

    I think it is just the urban population celebrating, and probably just part of that.

    Does anyone have the results of last years Egyptian vote to hand. I suspect Morsi had most of his support in the countryside.

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Good evening, everyone.

    Military deposes democratically elected leader, the people rise up to, um, celebrate.

    Interesting world we live in.

    Nah.

    The Middle East and Asia was fine when we were the Colonial Power there.

    Everything has gone to pot since we left.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013

    I think it is just the urban population celebrating, and probably just part of that.

    Does anyone have the results of last years Egyptian vote to hand. I suspect Morsi had most of his support in the countryside.

    Probably. The Empire is not, in fact, just Rome, I suspect.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Suppose though that the UK had been asked for military support. I would have wanted to be against such a thing, but I can't quite see a good explanation.

  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited July 2013

    Good evening, everyone.

    Military deposes democratically elected leader, the people rise up to, um, celebrate.

    Interesting world we live in.

    A democratically elected government does not necessarily uphold democracy or the freedoms that are meant to go with it. Bearing in mind Morsi attempted to give himself pretty much dictatorial powers a number of months back, the inclusivity effort rapidly hit the buffers when the Brotherhood showed its more realistic face and the fact Morsi won by a fairly wafer thin majority, this was never going to be easy.

    Way back during the protests that eventually turfed out Mubarak I posted on here that I reckoned the West, led by the US, would regret backing the Brotherhood horse. So far, I'm still of that opinion.

    No matter, the question is how Morsi's supporters and more particularly, the Brotherhood and its own militias choose to react. At this time the military has segmented the big crowds in Cairo. I'm not sure the Brotherhood much care either way about Morsi himself, useful figurehead as he is. Its the fact their old foes in the military and security apparatus have just walked right in after their attempts to neuter (and to some extent humiliate) them.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    edited July 2013
    Omnium said:

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Suppose though that the UK had been asked for military support. I would have wanted to be against such a thing, but I can't quite see a good explanation.

    how about letting other people sort their own problems out ?

    or if that doesn't work a constant stream of bodybags being flown back home ?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,070
    Mr. Y0kel, that's a good point. Winning an election does validate a tyranny of the majority.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777

    Mr. Y0kel, that's a good point. Winning an election does validate a tyranny of the majority.

    Not when it is won by Labour. Tyranny of the 35% is more like it.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919

    how about letting other people sort their own prblems out ?

    I'm all for that, but I also think that if your friends might ask you a tricky question diplomatically then you should have already worked out your answer.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,600
    edited July 2013
    David L - Indeed, although I thought Bush Senior was a reasonable president. In any case Jeb will never get the job, he lost his chance in 1994 when he failed to win the Florida governorship and his brother won Texas, and only one of the brothers was ever going to get the presidency. His half-Hispanic son George P though is running for Texas Lands Controller, he could well be a future president, maybe in 2024 after Hillary?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    Omnium said:

    how about letting other people sort their own prblems out ?

    I'm all for that, but I also think that if your friends might ask you a tricky question diplomatically then you should have already worked out your answer.

    Personally I can't see how intervening in a country with a population of 80 million and a bigger army than us will work out well, even within a coalition round the US. Humanitarian support and advice yes, but military ?
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919
    Really uncomfortable that the BBC seem to be 'calling it' too.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,919
    @Alanbrooke

    Entirely with you. It was a hypothetical question.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,834

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Would the two halves of Belgium stay independent, or would they join France/the Netherlands?

    The trend of the last century or so seems to be toward more and more nations, smaller and smaller divisioning (even while being subsumed within glorified trade-blocs with aspirations of unified statehood).

    I say bring back the United Provinces. ;)
    Bring back Prussia and The British Empire.

    Honestly, Europe was its finest, when Europe united under British Leadership to beat the French.
    Most of the EU and NATO nations should be eligible to be annexed to join the Commonwealth (if not already!), given that English/British forces have had a presence in them over the centuries.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,809
    edited July 2013
    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    I might be slack and lazy enough to read PB during the day, but I cannot access it from work to take advantage of my slackness and do so.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    I think some of our historians are being a tad harsh.

    Link 16 is demonstration of very fine judgment on our part. India or the USA: who would you rather play at cricket?

    Exactly. Good call as our Australian friends would say.
  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2013
    Schooling is a strange thing.

    I went to an all boys school and was in a class of over 30 boys. At least four (I haven't kept tabs on them all) of my classmates have been to jail.

    The size of my class was never a problem, and neither were the crazy, dragged-up mentalists who were in it. The school was forced to cater for all abilities (our classes were called 'mixed-ability', underneath were the 'rems', two full classes of remedial kids. This was the Welsh valleys!) and we knew no different. After all, we were kids, as far as we knew all schools were like that.

    One boy - I'll call him JP - was absolutely unreformed nuts. He left when he was about 14, there was no hope for him academically. The funny thing was, I liked him, he was actually a nice boy. Just bonkers. I went to his house after school once, a rough place, no carpets, no father, his Mam and her friends all sat in the kitchen smoking fags, and they made me food and ruffled my hair and were common-as-muck. Decent, poor, slightly backward people.

    People like that were my classmates and we all got along. Some bright boys, some thick boys, most boys on free dinners, me lucky not to be. The building was due to be demolished, asbestos roofs and crumbling terrapins. Constant fights between boys, but no gang stuff, just one-on-one boy fights on the yard.

    It was a proper, rough, fun, pikey, friends-for-life place, with teachers who really, really, really gave a shit about you. I had a fantastic education, a History teacher who would pounce from wooden desk to wooden desk to enact scenes from the war, a Maths teacher who played golf with my brother and me on Saturday mornings, and English teacher who came round my Nan's house to teach me Cat on a Hot Tin Roof when I'd missed school ill. I came away with A's in my A Levels and a route to a good job and an ability in life to see good in all people, whatever their background.

    I have no doubt I could've done better in an academy school, but I also could've done better if I'd bothered to go to Uni rather than be a homer. My point is, the school may have been decrepit, the classmates crazy and the community a bit rough, but I wouldn't change it for the world. And if someone offered me Eton or Repton or an Academy over my school I'd never take it. I'm happy with what I was given.

    I wish everybody the best in their educations, and I hope my kids do well. And Michael Gove is right in that our next generation of kids need to be even better, more rigorously educated to compete in the "global race". But I do find pushy parents a bit overbearing; it's surprising how life enhancing and fun being schooled in a crazy dive can be! Let kids enjoy it and don't fret about them too much. I came out alive, and feel alive because of it.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I dislike Morsi, and theocrats generally, but regret his downfall this way.

    If legitimate political viewpoints are denied a democratic voice, then the radicals amongst them will move to violence in suport of their objectives, and who can blame them?

    The best option now would be a new constitution with more checks and balances of power, followed by fresh elections. Leave it too long and resentment will build and the Muslim Brotherhood will be back with a vengance.
    Omnium said:

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Suppose though that the UK had been asked for military support. I would have wanted to be against such a thing, but I can't quite see a good explanation.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ftwestminster
    Secret document shows Unite attempt to influence 41 selections http://on.ft.com/16Pe8yb
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    well that went well. Marine Le Pen claiming a boost in FN membership since prosecutors decided to pursue her and the Euro-Parlt lifted her immunity. I can only assume they want her for president of France in 2017.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2013/07/03/97001-20130703FILWWW00690-le-pen-cinq-fois-plus-d-adhesions.php
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095
    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    I could change the format of Nighthawks, and drop the very subtle pop music references (anyone spot tonight's pop references?) and replace them with the best comments from PB on that day.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095
    Catching up with PMQs, two things struck me

    1) I'm assuming there's some internal Tory polling that shows voters think Ed is weak

    2) Backbench MPs (even the awkward squad) have seen this polling, and helped Dave to reinforce this point.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,777
    @Fenster

    Another post that makes me greatly regret the absence of a like button Fenster. Really interesting.

    The key to a really good education is teachers who really care. And the key to that is good leadership. The rest is to give the bureaucrats something to do.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,834

    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    I could change the format of Nighthawks, and drop the very subtle pop music references (anyone spot tonight's pop references?) and replace them with the best comments from PB on that day.
    Kylie!
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    I could change the format of Nighthawks, and drop the very subtle pop music references (anyone spot tonight's pop references?) and replace them with the best comments from PB on that day.
    Nah don't worry, I'm only ribbing. Lose the *subtle* pop music refs? Nooooo! Reading edu threads on PB is painful anyway (for the most part). Plus I like to leave work at work.

    I like your comment Fenster. Sounds like the school I went to, apart from the all boy thing.

    Egypt. Blimey.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Great post. My comprehensive was rather more upmarket, but mixing with all types of people, and playing with them, fighting with them and occassionally hiding from them was an important part of my education that made me who I am. I would not change it if I chose.

    There is much more to being educated than reading books and passing tests, though these should not be neglected.

    I salute your indefatigueability!
    Fenster said:

    Schooling is a strange thing.

    I went to an all boys school and was in a class of over 30 boys. At least four (I haven't kept tabs on them all) of my classmates have been to jail.

    The size of my class was never a problem, and neither were the crazy, dragged-up mentalists who were in it. The school was forced to cater for all abilities (our classes were called 'mixed-ability', underneath were the 'rems', two full classes of remedial kids. This was the Welsh valleys!) and we knew no different. After all, we were kids, as far as we knew all schools were like that.

    One boy - I'll call him JP - was absolutely unreformed nuts. He left when he was about 14, there was no hope for him academically. The funny thing was, I liked him, he was actually a nice boy. Just bonkers. I went to his house after school once, a rough place, no carpets, no father, his Mam and her friends all sat in the kitchen smoking fags, and they made me food and ruffled my hair and were common-as-muck. Decent, poor, slightly backward people.

    People like that were my classmates and we all got along. Some bright boys, some thick boys, most boys on free dinners, me lucky not to be. The building was due to be demolished, asbestos roofs and crumbling terrapins. Constant fights between boys, but no gang stuff, just one-on-one boy fights on the yard.

    It was a proper, rough, fun, pikey, friends-for-life place, with teachers who really, really, really gave a shit about you. I had a fantastic education, a History teacher who would pounce from wooden desk to wooden desk to enact scenes from the war, a Maths teacher who played golf with my brother and me on Saturday mornings, and English teacher who came round my Nan's house to teach me Cat on a Hot Tin Roof when I'd missed school ill. I came away with A's in my A Levels and a route to a good job and an ability in life to see good in all people, whatever their background.

    I have no doubt I could've done better in an academy school, but I also could've done better if I'd bothered to go to Uni rather than be a homer. My point is, the school may have been decrepit, the classmates crazy and the community a bit rough, but I wouldn't change it for the world. And if someone offered me Eton or Repton or an Academy over my school I'd never take it. I'm happy with what I was given.

    I wish everybody the best in their educations, and I hope my kids do well. And Michael Gove is right in that our next generation of kids need to be even better, more rigorously educated to compete in the "global race". But I do find pushy parents a bit overbearing; it's surprising how life enhancing and fun being schooled in a crazy dive can be! Let kids enjoy it and don't fret about them too much. I came out alive, and feel alive because of it.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    @TSE

    "anyone spot tonight's pop references"

    were President Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood a Soul group ? They sang " You need hands" off their album Courtroom.
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    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    tim said:

    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    Two education threads and both outside the school holidays, what are the odds on that?
    I found a brilliant summary/analysis of free school funding shenanigans last night. Damned if I can find it now.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2013


    I could change the format of Nighthawks, and drop the very subtle pop music references (anyone spot tonight's pop references?) and replace them with the best comments from PB on that day.

    Obviously "best" is a matter of opinion. For my money one of them would be the
    contribution of Fenster a few posts below.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,600
    Alanbrooke - Here are the results of the most recent 2017 French presidential polls

    1st round: Le Pen 29%, Hollande 18%, Fillon 16%; Le Pen 31%, Hollande 18%, Cope 11%; Le Pen 24%, Sarkozy 29%, Hollande 20%.

    2nd Round: Sarkozy 67%, Le Pen 33%

    So if Sarkozy does not run, Le Pen would top the poll in the first round. If Sarkozy does manage to navigate through the corruption allegations, Le Pen could still get a 1/3 of the vote against him in the run-off!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_French_presidential_election
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Carola said:

    Bah. Just back from school and missed another edu thread (and too tired to read it). Can't we save 'em until we lazy state school slackers get home? We're too busy being lazy and slack and dreaming about our gold-plated pensions to read PB during the day.

    I could change the format of Nighthawks, and drop the very subtle pop music references (anyone spot tonight's pop references?) and replace them with the best comments from PB on that day.
    the links are good
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 24,015
    HYUFD said:

    Alanbrooke - Here are the results of the most recent 2017 French presidential polls

    1st round: Le Pen 29%, Hollande 18%, Fillon 16%; Le Pen 31%, Hollande 18%, Cope 11%; Le Pen 24%, Sarkozy 29%, Hollande 20%.

    2nd Round: Sarkozy 67%, Le Pen 33%

    So if Sarkozy does not run, Le Pen would top the poll in the first round. If Sarkozy does manage to navigate through the corruption allegations, Le Pen could still get a 1/3 of the vote against him in the run-off!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_French_presidential_election

    I suspect Le Pen might poll a bit higher due to shy FN voter syndrome.
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Thank you for the nice comments. I was being a bit random, but it is Night Hawks after all.

    NB - I went to the same school as Neil Kinnock, albeit when he went there it was a grammar school. It changed to a comp around 1974, I think?! I was there late 80s, early 90s. It was pulled down around 1999 and replaced with one of those new, dashing, all-in-one buildings. All for the better, the facilities are now fab, but sad that my school is no longer there. Only the memories...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,070
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,600
    Alanbrooke - Indeed, were Sarkozy not to run and Le Pen therefore likely win the first round and face Hollande in the run-off as the only conservative candidate anything could happen, she could even win!
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,516
    Fenster said:

    Thank you for the nice comments. I was being a bit random, but it is Night Hawks after all.

    NB - I went to the same school as Neil Kinnock, albeit when he went there it was a grammar school. It changed to a comp around 1974, I think?! I was there late 80s, early 90s. It was pulled down around 1999 and replaced with one of those new, dashing, all-in-one buildings. All for the better, the facilities are now fab, but sad that my school is no longer there. Only the memories...

    Thanks for your post, Fenster. An excellent contribution.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,095
    ITV News ‏@itvnews 1m

    Al Jazeera's Egyptian TV station has been 'taken off air' during a live broadcast, according to its website http://itv.co/13giksA
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    I dislike Morsi, and theocrats generally, but regret his downfall this way.

    If legitimate political viewpoints are denied a democratic voice, then the radicals amongst them will move to violence in suport of their objectives, and who can blame them?

    The best option now would be a new constitution with more checks and balances of power, followed by fresh elections. Leave it too long and resentment will build and the Muslim Brotherhood will be back with a vengance.


    Omnium said:

    Democracy vs Secularism is a tough one, but like most of the Middle East we should steer clear.

    Suppose though that the UK had been asked for military support. I would have wanted to be against such a thing, but I can't quite see a good explanation.

    Dont worry Omnium it will never happen. Next to the Israelis, the Egyptians hate the British the most.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @flackster
    #bbc keeps alluding to fact that islamic fascist tyrant #morsi was democratically elected. yes.... so was #hitler

    Just a reminder to those who believe that a man/woman elected democratically must be a democrat him/herself.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,166
    MikeK said:

    @flackster
    #bbc keeps alluding to fact that islamic fascist tyrant #morsi was democratically elected. yes.... so was #hitler

    Just a reminder to those who believe that a man/woman elected democratically must be a democrat him/herself.

    Not following this too closely but what was Morsi doing before the coup that was fascist or tyrannical?
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413


    Not following this too closely but what was Morsi doing before the coup that was fascist or tyrannical?

    You really haven't been following, have you?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,166


    Not following this too closely but what was Morsi doing before the coup that was fascist or tyrannical?

    You really haven't been following, have you?
    No, what did he do?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,834
    edited July 2013


    Not following this too closely but what was Morsi doing before the coup that was fascist or tyrannical?

    You really haven't been following, have you?
    No, what did he do?

    But there has been a growing sense of discontent since last November, when Mr Morsi issued a controversial constitutional declaration granting himself extensive powers.

    His moves to entrench Islamic laws and concentrate power in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood also alienated liberals and secularists.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Nicola Sturgeon on the Scottish news tonight proudly announcing that the 'right to buy' time had come and gone. And with it this announcement, came the end of the aspirations of a few hundred thousand Scots who might have otherwise hoped to get themselves onto the housing ladder in this way in the future as the SNP raised the draw bridge up before they could get on it. What a typically retrograde step from our Scottish SNP Government.

    But the real irony of this evening news report had to be the sight of the late Mrs Thatcher getting about the positive media coverage she has ever had in about thirty years in Scotland. :) It was highlighted that the biggest uptake of her flag ship policy had been in fact in Scotland, around half a million took her up on the offer over the years. And this saw Scotland going from being predominantly a country of renters to home owners.



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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,166


    Not following this too closely but what was Morsi doing before the coup that was fascist or tyrannical?

    You really haven't been following, have you?
    No, what did he do?

    But there has been a growing sense of discontent since last November, when Mr Morsi issued a controversial constitutional declaration granting himself extensive powers.

    His moves to entrench Islamic laws and concentrate power in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood also alienated liberals and secularists.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794
    Googling it up he looks like a bit of a crap fascist tyrant. He tried to pass a decree giving himself broad, vaguely-defined powers for the period until the constitution was passed, then walked it back when people protested. That became moot when they then passed a constitution, put it to a vote and won.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,385
    Great, fascinating Fenster post.

    I can't compete with that and don't want to, but I had some fairly unusual schooling too. My dad was a translator with various UN agencies, so I grew up in Austria and Denmark. The Brits mostly sent their kids home, so the English-speaking schools had an American curriculum, and I was in one from its startup, with correspondence classes from the University of Nebraska. In those pre-internet days several weeks would pass between when you wrote an essay or took a test and when you got results, though we had a few teachers to talk us through the material. Collusion was endemic and actively encouraged by the teachers - one friend told me he deliberately fell behind to avoid being sucked in, but I wasn't that upright.

    By the time I finished there were 20 or so nationalities in the school, mostly with parents who were in business or the embassies. We rubbed along in a slightly detached way, typical of mobile communities, with the American kids amiably tolerant of my communist views - I never saw bullying or fighting of any kind in our school or the various Danish ones that we shared premises with, though there was some serious William Hague-level boozing after hours. The standard started really low (in retrospect I should have taken the plunge and gone to a Danish school - integration and all that) and gradually improved as correspondence classes were replaced by proper lessons. Eventually I got offers at MIT and Yale and studied briefly at the former, before dropping out as my parents couldn't afford the costs.

    Another world from Fenster's school, which sounds a lot better preparation for British life and a warmer place than my rather clinical experience. But when I came back to Britain I was astonished to find people who thought bullying and fighting in schools commonplace and to be expected 'cos kids are like that. It's not universal. I wonder if one can get the warmth without it?
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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    edited July 2013

    Great post. My comprehensive was rather more upmarket, but mixing with all types of people, and playing with them, fighting with them and occassionally hiding from them was an important part of my education that made me who I am. I would not change it if I chose.

    There is much more to being educated than reading books and passing tests, though these should not be neglected.

    I salute your indefatigueability!


    Fenster said:

    Schooling is a strange thing.

    I went to an all boys school and was in a class of over 30 boys. At least four (I haven't kept tabs on them all) of my classmates have been to jail.

    The size of my class was never a problem, and neither were the crazy, dragged-up mentalists who were in it. The school was forced to cater for all abilities (our classes were called 'mixed-ability', underneath were the 'rems', two full classes of remedial kids. This was the Welsh valleys!) and we knew no different. After all, we were kids, as far as we knew all schools were like that.

    One boy - I'll call him JP - was absolutely unreformed nuts. He left when he was about 14, there was no hope for him academically. The funny thing was, I liked him, he was actually a nice boy. Just bonkers. I went to his house after school once, a rough place, no carpets, no father, his Mam and her friends all sat in the kitchen smoking fags, and they made me food and ruffled my hair and were common-as-muck. Decent, poor, slightly backward people.

    People like that were my classmates and we all got along. Some bright boys, some thick boys, most boys on free dinners, me lucky not to be. The building was due to be demolished, asbestos roofs and crumbling terrapins. Constant fights between boys, but no gang stuff, just one-on-one boy fights on the yard.

    It was a proper, rough, fun, pikey, friends-for-life place, with teachers who really, really, really gave a shit about you. I had a fantastic education, a History teacher who would pounce from wooden desk to wooden desk to enact scenes from the war, a Maths teacher who played golf with my brother and me on Saturday mornings, and English teacher who came round my Nan's house to teach me Cat on a Hot Tin Roof when I'd missed school ill. I came away with A's in my A Levels and a route to a good job and an ability in life to see good in all people, whatever their background.

    I have no doubt I could've done better in an academy school, but I also could've done better if I'd bothered to go to Uni rather than be a homer. My point is, the school may have been decrepit, the classmates crazy and the community a bit rough, but I wouldn't change it for the world. And if someone offered me Eton or Repton or an Academy over my school I'd never take it. I'm happy with what I was given.

    I wish everybody the best in their educations, and I hope my kids do well. And Michael Gove is right in that our next generation of kids need to be even better, more rigorously educated to compete in the "global race". But I do find pushy parents a bit overbearing; it's surprising how life enhancing and fun being schooled in a crazy dive can be! Let kids enjoy it and don't fret about them too much. I came out alive, and feel alive because of it.

    I loved this commentary from Fenster. The imagery. Also the fact that money being chucked at schools is not always the solution. I can see why others did as well.
    I moved from a fee paying all boys school to a mixed comprehensive when family circumstances changed for the worse at 13 and there were pro's and cons. Would things have been different had I stayed at the other school??, almost certainly.
    However, you put up with your new circumstances and my parents gave me the best opportunity they could and I will always appreciate that.

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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    Labor in Oz stating in NSW and possibly elsewhere they are controlled by minority factions with vested interest and need to clean up local branches where minority interests took precedence. Milliplod could learn from what is happening today.
    National intervention to clean it up is needed as people know the faceless men control all decision making. Banning property developers is a relevant one he planned to introduce here in Oz. Bit like banning bankers in the Uk, seen the same way by the public.

    There are parallels with why having support solely from unions with a diminishing voter base is an issue and a greater appeal needs to be achieved outwith unions.

    Not that a speech today will have a big effect.
    Lots of PR from Rudd, a poor PM with fraud and psychopathic issues according to his colleagues.
    Trying to win an election where self preservation and self serving corruption and deceit has meant the public are turned off with all of Labor, except Rudd on his PR honeymoon. Labor need to make it Rudd v abbott, not Liberals against Labor as they would get smashed if that becomes the agenda and not personality politics.

    Rudd sabotaged Labor last election and his promise not to stand again against Gillard was a lie yet again as we all knew it was.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    fitalass said:

    Nicola Sturgeon on the Scottish news tonight proudly announcing that the 'right to buy' time had come and gone. And with it this announcement, came the end of the aspirations of a few hundred thousand Scots who might have otherwise hoped to get themselves onto the housing ladder

    I don't think it was a perfect policy by any means, and had plenty of unfortunate and unforeseen consequences.

    I lived for a while in a former council flat- a nice place in Croftfoot glasgow, 4 flats in a wee block with gardens. It started off respectable (I heard from a schemie pal that it was considered by them to be a "snooty" scheme :) ), by the time I left right to buy plus buy to let turned it into a shite landlords scam with a constantly shifting population of undesirables mixed in with those decent people who had too much negative equity or otherwise couldn't move out. A crying shame. British housing needs sorted out. right to buy wasn't sorting it
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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    edited July 2013

    fitalass said:

    Nicola Sturgeon on the Scottish news tonight proudly announcing that the 'right to buy' time had come and gone. And with it this announcement, came the end of the aspirations of a few hundred thousand Scots who might have otherwise hoped to get themselves onto the housing ladder

    I don't think it was a perfect policy by any means, and had plenty of unfortunate and unforeseen consequences.

    I lived for a while in a former council flat- a nice place in Croftfoot glasgow, 4 flats in a wee block with gardens. It started off respectable (I heard from a schemie pal that it was considered by them to be a "snooty" scheme :) ), by the time I left right to buy plus buy to let turned it into a shite landlords scam with a constantly shifting population of undesirables mixed in with those decent people who had too much negative equity or otherwise couldn't move out. A crying shame. British housing needs sorted out. right to buy wasn't sorting it
    It was a potentially good idea, but the real world outcome was poor. Particularly when house prices fell and people had other forms of debt such as negative equity to add to their other concerns. If they bought cheap and sold high then of course it was a success for those people.

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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    edited July 2013
    So with 51% of the votes a democratically elected leader who did not do what was promised before the election has been overthrown by dark forces and we do not know when the next election will be.
    Well that is Oz, now what about Egypt which also fits the above commentary?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,026
    Some good news on British exports:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/07/03/chinese-video-sites-embrace-british-invasion/

    "That puts British shows at the top an increasingly snobbish pop-cultural hierarchy in China — described by local media as the “disdain chain.” (鄙视链 in Chinese) – in which British drama fans look down on fans of American shows, who themselves look down on Korean soap fans, who in turn look down on fans of domestic dramas."
This discussion has been closed.