politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why the eligibility rules for Labour’s election could help Eagle more than Corbyn
Why I think, contrary to the smartest Labour journalists like Stephen Bush, the rules on eligibility for the Labour leadership election help Eagle, not Corbyn:
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
I agree the YouGov poll shows that there is at least a chance that Corbyn can be defeated. 44% wanted him to stand down and 48% think he's doing a bad job.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
You're no fun (but entirely correct)
I'd much rather we have an effective opposition from Labour than a destructive opposition from IDS & the Leadsomites......
"UNITE has made its membership free of charge in the wake of the membership freeze decision. Those who sign up will be eligible to vote as affiliated supporters."
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
I agree the YouGov poll shows that there is at least a chance that Corbyn can be defeated. 44% wanted him to stand down and 48% think he's doing a bad job.
Firstly, it remains to be seen whether the YouGov polling is at all accurate -- the two YouGov polls in the last leadership election underestimated Corbyn by 16% and 7%, respectively.
Secondly, to the extent that people are dissatisfied with Corbyn, that is likely to melt away when presented with the very flawed alternative. In some ways it's similar to how, in the mid-term of a government, people reflexively say they dislike the government, but then when election time comes, they stop just thinking about whether they like or dislike the incumbent, and instead start comparing them with the alternative. My prediction would be that, as soon as this campaign proper starts, and people see and hear more from Eagle, all the exact same issues that caused Corbyn to originally surge last summer will resurface (namely, the fact that the "moderates" don't stand for anything at all and don't have a clue how to win elections themselves). As much as Labour members are rightly frustrated by Corbyn's unforced errors, I predict they will want to return to the dark days of abstentions on the Welfare Bill and empty platitudes about "fairness" and "aspiration" even less.
Nick Cohen's in a gloomy mood: Up at 4am thinking about the Labour Party.. It's like sitting with a corpse the night before a funeral
Taking a closer look at the membership of the NEC, it remains absolutely incredible just how little representation or power the PLP holds considering what a key part of the party they remain. How can you have chief administrative body that basically fails to recognise, or simple ignores the importance of the PLP when it comes to either forming an effective or functioning Labour Government or main Opposition party?!
While it may be Labour party associations that select MPs, and the MPs, party members and affiliated Unions that decide the Labour Leader. Surely there should also be far more recognition of the wider electoral mandate that individual MPs receive? No serious political party that seeks to form a government or act as the Main Opposition can function with a Leader that fails to have confidence or backing of its Parliamentary party. The NEC have taken a decision to back Corbyn rather than the PLP by putting him on the Labour Leadership ballot despite the fact he would fail to get even the nominations required by the other candidates. This now shows how both the NEC and the Labour Leadership rules are totally unfit for purpose when a Leader won't respect the verdict of the PLP.
Morning, I tend to agree that the membership purge might favour Eagle slightly. I think the only viable outcome for Labour now is for Corbyn to get a drubbing in this contest. I don't think it's likely. If Eagle wins 51-49 the Momentum crowd will claim it's only because of the membership rules changes. If Corbyn wins by a similar margin then a variant of it can be used to say it doesn't reflect his true support. A tonking of Corbyn is what Labour need and won't get so this just drags on.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Nick Cohen's in a gloomy mood: Up at 4am thinking about the Labour Party.. It's like sitting with a corpse the night before a funeral
Taking a closer look at the membership of the NEC, it remains absolutely incredible just how little representation or power the PLP holds considering what a key part of the party they remain. How can you have chief administrative body that basically fails to recognise, or simple ignores the importance of the PLP when it comes to either forming an effective or functioning Labour Government or main Opposition party?!
While it may be Labour party associations that select MPs, and the MPs, party members and affiliated Unions that decide the Labour Leader. Surely there should also be far more recognition of the wider electoral mandate that individual MPs receive? No serious political party that seeks to form a government or act as the Main Opposition can function with a Leader that fails to have confidence or backing of its Parliamentary party. The NEC have taken a decision to back Corbyn rather than the PLP by putting him on the Labour Leadership ballot despite the fact he would fail to get even the nominations required by the other candidates. This now shows how both the NEC and the Labour Leadership rules are totally unfit for purpose when a Leader won't respect the verdict of the PLP.
As devil's advocate, it could equally be that there is something wrong with their candidate selection process to have ended up with MPs so out of touch with the membership, conference and party committees?
Meanwhile I wait for some radio ads from no-fee lawyers to tell people how to claim their compensation for the great labour membership mis-selling scandal...
Why am I not alarmed at the prospect of Theresa May becoming prime minister this week without a contested leadership election, let alone a general election, when Gordon Brown’s similar “coronation” in 2007 left me full of foreboding?
Two reasons stand out. The most important is that the British state faces an existential crisis by virtue of 23 June’s slender majority to withdraw from the EU. It desperately needed to fill the power vacuum created by David Cameron’s refusal to stick around and sweep up the broken glass from his reckless referendum gamble.
May’s “Keep Calm” claims were thus enhanced by the fact that she kept her nerve and dignity. Commentators have piled in – here’s Gaby Hinsliff’s excellent piece – to explain her, but Theresa walks by herself, as many successful leaders do.
As Jeremy Corbyn winds Labour into an ever tighter ball of cannibalistic, auto-destructive irrelevance, the practical pursuit of English politics – the business of designing competing policies, arguing their merits and negotiating compromises to see them enacted – looks now almost entirely contained within Conservative circles. That is not a healthy condition for a multiparty democracy, but under May’s leadership it might prove to be an oddly sustainable one. Britain has progressed from a state of acute political emergency to something more stable but still chronic, where immediate relief from pain, albeit welcome, is no substitute for recovery.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
Not according to this:
Previously, prime ministers had to surrender their MPs' pensions on entering Downing Street and picked up pensions worth 37% of their salary as premier. Mr Major is understood to have surrendered his MP's salary before the new regulations came into force.
"at the end of the meeting, after a couple of pro-Corbyn members had left, and Corbyn himself had gone, a vote was taken on a motion not on the agenda, to exclude from the leadership vote anyone who joined the party in the past six months. " (Peston)
The Trots will get in to vote via the various affiliates. The Tweets and the emails about how to do it are already being sent out. You can join various organisations for a pittance, cast your vote and then stop paying the monthly fee.
There is absolutely no way on earth Eagle or anyone else will get close to Corbyn. I'd expect him to win by a wider margin than he did last time.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
Not according to this:
Previously, prime ministers had to surrender their MPs' pensions on entering Downing Street and picked up pensions worth 37% of their salary as premier. Mr Major is understood to have surrendered his MP's salary before the new regulations came into force.
The later article seems to have revised Blair's pension downwards, which probably does leave Blair and Major on a higher par than both Brown and Cameron.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
Totally agree with you.
IIRC For £2 anyone can join Unite Community and gain a vote that way. I gather that's open until 8th August.
Momentum were promoting this widely on Twitter last night.
Uncle Len really is one of the most astonishing chaps. He's bruised his way to the top, spent years planning the takeover of Labour and now uses his almighty financial/organisational muscle to get his way.
I still recall several revealing articles in the Guardian from yrs ago where he was totally candid about his intentions. And many here poo-poo'd the whole thing as complete nonsense.
Corbyn allowed Len to pass go and collect £200 much more quickly than he envisaged - but his agenda was there for all to see.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
The modifications came in in 2013, I think.
So in addition to cutting his successor's salary just before he left, Mr Brown could also have taken the immediate "pension".
It would take an FOI to find out, but I would not be surprised given my subterranean opinion of Gordon Brown.
The Mail article quoted by CarlottaVance says not, describing Blair as the last Prime Minister to accept the extremely generous non-contributory package, equivalent to half his salary as premier. The figure is even higher as Gordon Brown and then David Cameron took significantly lower pay than the £196,000 Mr Blair was on.
The disarray at the top of the Labour party means that it is unlikely to make electoral gains for a long time, or win the 2020 GE. A long-term rebuilding of support is required among the people of middle England, who despite the open door immigration policies, still constitute the majority of the population.
It is therefore desirable from Labour's perspective that their leader reflects the background and attitudes of this group in order to have the best chance of appealing to them, so a married WASP man/woman is preferable. Labour can't afford to take a PC view, and unfortunately, neither Angela Eagle nor Owen Smith meet these criteria.
I always felt in 2010 that Labour chose the wrong Ed. However, given the contempt in which Blair/Brown are now held, particularly post Chilcot, it would now also be desirable for Labour's leader not to be tarred by association with them.
If no suitable candidate comes forward, it might be better for Labour to stick with Corbyn for the time being, until he has clearly failed electorally - the foundations on which the current attempted coup has been built are too flimsy. Corbyn is not responsible for Brexit - Cameron and Osborne are and have paid the ultimate political price for their hubris.
Uncle Len really is one of the most astonishing chaps. He's bruised his way to the top, spent years planning the takeover of Labour and now uses his almighty financial/organisational muscle to get his way.
I still recall several revealing articles in the Guardian from yrs ago where he was totally candid about his intentions. And many here poo-poo'd the whole thing as complete nonsense.
Corbyn allowed Len to pass go and collect £200 much more quickly than he envisaged - but his agenda was there for all to see.
I think, above almost all else the old remnants and thinking of new/Brownite Labour are that the ends ALWAYS ALWAYS justify the means.
When you think things through this way you can see how most of the 1997-2010 Gov'ts worked - and also why Blair was ousted by Brown. Blair was for sure an ends/means man but then Brown came along and his acolytes outdid even Blair with this philosophy.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
It's hard to argue with any of that. We face a long period of sustained Tory rule with no viable way of bringing it to an end or even to offer effective opposition to it, thanks to FPTP.
I remain very dubious about UKIP's ability to win swathes of seats in the North and Midlands from Labour, because I do not see what platform they could credibly stand on to attract switchers. Given that we are now leaving the EU that calling card has gone. That leaves all immigration and the temptation will be to head ever further right on that, especially if migrant numbers do fall from here on in. As the BNP has shown in the past that will win protest votes but not enough votes. A really serious UKIP challenge only happens when the party moves credibly leftwards on economic and fiscal policy - and that will be hard for a leadership and membership that is essentially Thatcherite.
So, I'd expect that what will happen at the next election is that Labour will lose votes in its heartlands but very few seats, the LibDems will have something of a resurgence in their old heartlands with Labour voters moving back to them, and the Tories will absolutely clean up in all marginal. Overall, therefore, I'd say we are looking at potentially the biggest Tory majority since the war at the next GE. And in a best case scenario that will take at least two more general elections to unwind.
As a 52 year old, I doubt I'll live to see another centre left government in this country.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
The modifications came in in 2013, I think.
So in addition to cutting his successor's salary just before he left, Mr Brown could also have taken the immediate "pension".
It would take an FOI to find out, but I would not be surprised given my subterranean opinion of Gordon Brown.
The Mail article quoted by CarlottaVance says not, describing Blair as the last Prime Minister to accept the extremely generous non-contributory package, equivalent to half his salary as premier. The figure is even higher as Gordon Brown and then David Cameron took significantly lower pay than the £196,000 Mr Blair was on.
On Brown cutting his own salary, I believe he didn't take the full £196k (taking £150k instead on a voluntary basis), then one month before he left power he cut the formal salary for the position to £150k.
Thereby he denied the choice he had made to his successors.
Bricks through windows, death threats, stitch ups hatched around a committee table, and a leader who likes motorbikes. Sounds like Sons of Anarchy, but not as plausible.
Pity the pounds gone up four cents since he wrote that. It isleaving the EEA the markets were scared of, not leaving the EU. May's election means that won't happen.
The Trots will get in to vote via the various affiliates. The Tweets and the emails about how to do it are already being sent out. You can join various organisations for a pittance, cast your vote and then stop paying the monthly fee.
There is absolutely no way on earth Eagle or anyone else will get close to Corbyn. I'd expect him to win by a wider margin than he did last time.
As an FBU member, do you reckon I'll get a vote? We reafiliated last year.I'm on my phone and can't find owt on the website. My union is madly in love with Corbyn, so I guess they'l try and get us a vote.
Thread header premise is undermined as news that Owen Smith is entering the race. Needs to be a straight head to head to have any chance of unseating Corbyn surely.
Bricks through windows, death threats, stitch ups hatched around a committee table, and a leader who likes motorbikes. Sounds like Sons of Anarchy, but not as plausible.
Bricks through windows, death threats, stitch ups hatched around a committee table, and a leader who likes motorbikes. Sounds like Sons of Anarchy, but not as plausible.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
It's hard to argue with any of that. We face a long period of sustained Tory rule with no viable way of bringing it to an end or even to offer effective opposition to it, thanks to FPTP.
I remain very dubious about UKIP's ability to win swathes of seats in the North and Midlands from Labour, because I do not see what platform they could credibly stand on to attract switchers. Given that we are now leaving the EU that calling card has gone. That leaves all immigration and the temptation will be to head ever further right on that, especially if migrant numbers do fall from here on in. As the BNP has shown in the past that will win protest votes but not enough votes. A really serious UKIP challenge only happens when the party moves credibly leftwards on economic and fiscal policy - and that will be hard for a leadership and membership that is essentially Thatcherite.
So, I'd expect that what will happen at the next election is that Labour will lose votes in its heartlands but very few seats, the LibDems will have something of a resurgence in their old heartlands with Labour voters moving back to them, and the Tories will absolutely clean up in all marginal. Overall, therefore, I'd say we are looking at potentially the biggest Tory majority since the war at the next GE. And in a best case scenario that will take at least two more general elections to unwind.
As a 52 year old, I doubt I'll live to see another centre left government in this country.
Back in 1994 or 5, I had a conversation with a boss who said that the Conservatives were in such a parlous state that they should really split into two separate parties; that the groups within the party were too different to ever work together enough to be elected.
Fifteen years later, we had another Conservative PM (albeit in coalition).
I think Labour are doomed in a 2020 GE. That leaves 2025. Hopefully a drubbing in 2020 will lead them to elect someone actually sane as leader. By that time there will have been Conservative PMs for fifteen years: long enough for Toryism to have got stale with the electorate (13 years for Blairism, 17 for Thatcherism).
This goes out of the window if Labour does split, in which case the political landscape will be very different.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
So for three quid you'll act, but for twenty-five no way? How precisely you price 'the good of the country'.
It does seem unfair to retrospectively disenfranchise members though- I think you're right on that...
Bricks through windows, death threats, stitch ups hatched around a committee table, and a leader who likes motorbikes. Sounds like Sons of Anarchy, but not as plausible.
Bwahaha
Did you know Jax Teller was in Byker Grove?
Yeah, and Green Street. Thanks for the heads up on SOA, it's even better than The Shield. Halfway through the last season. It can only end one way, I guess!
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
It's hard to argue with any of that. We face a long period of sustained Tory rule with no viable way of bringing it to an end or even to offer effective opposition to it, thanks to FPTP.
I remain very dubious about UKIP's ability to win swathes of seats in the North and Midlands from Labour, because I do not see what platform they could credibly stand on to attract switchers. Given that we are now leaving the EU that calling card has gone. That leaves all immigration and the temptation will be to head ever further right on that, especially if migrant numbers do fall from here on in. As the BNP has shown in the past that will win protest votes but not enough votes. A really serious UKIP challenge only happens when the party moves credibly leftwards on economic and fiscal policy - and that will be hard for a leadership and membership that is essentially Thatcherite.
So, I'd expect that what will happen at the next election is that Labour will lose votes in its heartlands but very few seats, the LibDems will have something of a resurgence in their old heartlands with Labour voters moving back to them, and the Tories will absolutely clean up in all marginal. Overall, therefore, I'd say we are looking at potentially the biggest Tory majority since the war at the next GE. And in a best case scenario that will take at least two more general elections to unwind.
As a 52 year old, I doubt I'll live to see another centre left government in this country.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
The modifications came in in 2013, I think.
So in addition to cutting his successor's salary just before he left, Mr Brown could also have taken the immediate "pension".
It would take an FOI to find out, but I would not be surprised given my subterranean opinion of Gordon Brown.
The Mail article quoted by CarlottaVance says not, describing Blair as the last Prime Minister to accept the extremely generous non-contributory package, equivalent to half his salary as premier. The figure is even higher as Gordon Brown and then David Cameron took significantly lower pay than the £196,000 Mr Blair was on.
On Brown cutting his own salary, I believe he didn't take the full £196k (taking £150k instead on a voluntary basis), then one month before he left power he cut the formal salary for the position to £150k.
Thereby he denied the choice he had made to his successors.
Had decided to pay £3 for the good of the country. Having spent a lifetime not joining the Labour Party that's a huge thing for me but the centre must hold. However good old Labour behave as you'd expect them to behave. £25 per supporter is a penal tax rate to discourage participation. Arbitrarily disenfranchising members of six months standing is disgusting. I feel absolved of any need to take responsibility for the death of Britain's parliamentary liberal left now. Stuff "em. Let Corbyn win as a longer term accelerant. It seems Labour just can't act other than a tribe.
It's hard to argue with any of that. We face a long period of sustained Tory rule with no viable way of bringing it to an end or even to offer effective opposition to it, thanks to FPTP.
I remain Thatcherite.
So, I'd expect that what will happen at the next election is that Labour will lose votes in its heartlands but very few seats, the LibDems will have something of a resurgence in their old heartlands with Labour voters moving back to them, and the Tories will absolutely clean up in all marginal. Overall, therefore, I'd say we are looking at potentially the biggest Tory majority since the war at the next GE. And in a best case scenario that will take at least two more general elections to unwind.
As a 52 year old, I doubt I'll live to see another centre left government in this country.
Back in 1994 or 5, I had a conversation with a boss who said that the Conservatives were in such a parlous state that they should really split into two separate parties; that the groups within the party were too different to ever work together enough to be elected.
Fifteen years later, we had another Conservative PM (albeit in coalition).
I think Labour are doomed in a 2020 GE. That leaves 2025. Hopefully a drubbing in 2020 will lead them to elect someone actually sane as leader. By that time there will have been Conservative PMs for fifteen years: long enough for Toryism to have got stale with the electorate (13 years for Blairism, 17 for Thatcherism).
This goes out of the window if Labour does split, in which case the political landscape will be very different.
The Labour party is the stupid party and its rules are constructed in such a way that now that Corbyn is entrenched as leader the hard left can assume all the levers of power. The Tories never had to deal with an organised takeover, so always had a chance of a comeback. Labour as a potential party of government is finished. It's hard to see how a split will not occur.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
Ha Ha Ha , at least they have a trick , not just a bunch of donkeys running about knifing each other.
Thread header premise is undermined as news that Owen Smith is entering the race. Needs to be a straight head to head to have any chance of unseating Corbyn surely.
Under the Labour electoral system, it doesn't matter if there are 2 or 200 candidates. Candidates are systematically eliminated and their second preferences allocated until there is an outright winner. Therefore, more candidates means more rounds but won't affect the overall result. Corbyn won on first allocation, Miliband on the last one.
Reading the Blue rinse brigades middle of the night right wing guff is a good start to the morning , gives you a laugh and sets you a up for a hard days work.
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
Presumably John Major got the higher pension, and Gordon Brown, like Cameron, must wait to claim the lower pension.
The modifications came in in 2013, I think.
So in addition to cutting his successor's salary just before he left, Mr Brown could also have taken the immediate "pension".
It would take an FOI to find out, but I would not be surprised given my subterranean opinion of Gordon Brown.
The Mail article quoted by CarlottaVance says not, describing Blair as the last Prime Minister to accept the extremely generous non-contributory package, equivalent to half his salary as premier. The figure is even higher as Gordon Brown and then David Cameron took significantly lower pay than the £196,000 Mr Blair was on.
On Brown cutting his own salary, I believe he didn't take the full £196k (taking £150k instead on a voluntary basis), then one month before he left power he cut the formal salary for the position to £150k.
Thereby he denied the choice he had made to his successors.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
Ha Ha Ha , at least they have a trick , not just a bunch of donkeys running about knifing each other.
Malcolm, isn't that a bit harsh? In my experience donkeys are placid and amiable creatures and not given to fighting of any sort, certainly not with knives.
Casting my eye ahead to the next general election, I wondered if there was a book on how many seats seats Labour could be reduced to .. 150-180 seems a good guess right now.
Thread header premise is undermined as news that Owen Smith is entering the race. Needs to be a straight head to head to have any chance of unseating Corbyn surely.
Under the Labour electoral system, it doesn't matter if there are 2 or 200 candidates. Candidates are systematically eliminated and their second preferences allocated until there is an outright winner. Therefore, more candidates means more rounds but won't affect the overall result. Corbyn won on first allocation, Miliband on the last one.
One could still argue that having a single challenger makes it a simpler contest. TBH, I'd like Labour members to have a choice. Offering up a single candidate just encourages talk of What-If.
Chap on R4 just said that it was vital that CLPs meet so that they can decide how their members should vote.
@rosschawkins: 2 srcs say NEC suspended all CLP & branch meetings till new leader elected because of concern about harassment, intimidation and bullying
Thread header premise is undermined as news that Owen Smith is entering the race. Needs to be a straight head to head to have any chance of unseating Corbyn surely.
Under the Labour electoral system, it doesn't matter if there are 2 or 200 candidates. Candidates are systematically eliminated and their second preferences allocated until there is an outright winner. Therefore, more candidates means more rounds but won't affect the overall result. Corbyn won on first allocation, Miliband on the last one.
One could still argue that having a single challenger makes it a simpler contest. TBH, I'd like Labour members to have a choice. Offering up a single candidate just encourages talk of What-If.
Well, possibly. But if Labour members are so thick that they can't make a three way choice using STV, they probably shouldn't be anywhere near the leavers of power anyway.
I'm sure Momentum will be very helpful in telling everyone how to participate in this election.
Tempted as I am to vote Corbyn. I think it might be time to put the national interest first and I'm not sure that 50 years of unbroken tory rule is in the national interest.
Trouble is of the known candidates, I think the other two are worse than Corbyn.
I shall have to regale PB with my musings as I struggle over the summer with this agonising choice. Deciding on the most suitable leader for a party that I basically have loathed since experiencing Loony Left Lambeths shenanigans in the early 80s. Aint life grand.
The Labour party is the stupid party and its rules are constructed in such a way that now that Corbyn is entrenched as leader the hard left can assume all the levers of power. The Tories never had to deal with an organised takeover, so always had a chance of a comeback. Labour as a potential party of government is finished. It's hard to see how a split will not occur.
You might be right wrt Labour - we'll know soon enough. The important issue is which side keeps the Labour brand and organisational setups, and which needs to start afresh, or from nearly afresh.
But despite that, I wouldn't give up hope on a centre left government after 2025 - the last year has been so weird that I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn suddenly stood down to allow Blair another crack. It'd be no less weird than the Tory campaign - e.g. Leadsom's torpedoing of her own campaign or Gove and Boris slamming each other down.
Mr Smith will position himself to Angela Eagle's left, stressing support for Mr Corbyn's anti-austerity policies, and believes this enables him to appeal to an apparently radical membership."
SNP Government didn't send out a 'blanket letter' to inform Scottish parents about the Named Person law, but now says this is the right approach after Brexit vote!
The Courier - German woman resident in Tayside ‘alarmed’ by Brexit letter
"An SNP spokesman said: “Graeme Dey and other SNP parliamentarians have rightly taken the lead in engaging with EU citizens in their constituencies and ensuring them that they remain welcome in Scotland and their contribution is valued.”"
It said in the article that the local [MP] MSP co-signed the letter. I thought there were rules about that sort of thing - if the MSP signs it then it changes from being a governmental communication to a party-political one and ought to be paid for by the party?
The affiliated union votes would swing massively for Corbyn, if my union is anything to go by. The FBU is right behind him, and is always urging us to support him. I have a lot of colleagues who actively got more involved during the last GE. Labour genuinely seem to have forgotten who they're supposed to represent, though. On the one hand, you have the London-centric party, and I'd include a large swathe of the MPs in that, who find it difficult to connect with the working class side of the population. The Corbyn wing of the party say all the right things, but have gathered a following of hard left student activists, who seem to have gone back to the Cold War era. I guess there will always be the places where a donkey in a red rosette will walk a GE, but surely outside of theses areas, Labour will fade off? The LIb Dems could yet make a comeback, sooner than we thought. What a couple of weeks we've had, and the end is nowhere near in sight, except, perhaps for the Labour party as we know it.
I'm sure Momentum will be very helpful in telling everyone how to participate in this election.
Tempted as I am to vote Corbyn. I think it might be time to put the national interest first and I'm not sure that 50 years of unbroken tory rule is in the national interest.
Trouble is of the known candidates, I think the other two are worse than Corbyn.
I shall have to regale PB with my musings as I struggle over the summer with this agonising choice. Deciding on the most suitable leader for a party that I basically have loathed since experiencing Loony Left Lambeths shenanigans in the early 80s. Aint life grand.
I know nothing about Owen Smith bar he's superficially appealing on the TV/radio. That's a step up from Angela who with the best will in the world has neither the face for TV, nor the voice for radio. I've still got a soft spot for her - I've no idea why.
I'm sure Momentum will be very helpful in telling everyone how to participate in this election.
Tempted as I am to vote Corbyn. I think it might be time to put the national interest first and I'm not sure that 50 years of unbroken tory rule is in the national interest.
Trouble is of the known candidates, I think the other two are worse than Corbyn.
I shall have to regale PB with my musings as I struggle over the summer with this agonising choice. Deciding on the most suitable leader for a party that I basically have loathed since experiencing Loony Left Lambeths shenanigans in the early 80s. Aint life grand.
It should be left to true left-wing voters to vote for Labour's leader.
Having said that, it'll be interesting to see the candidates' visions for the country. I think we can guess at Corbyn's as it has not changed in thirty years. But what will Eagles and/or Smith etc offer as a vision?
There is a poor choice: Corbyn's hard left is loony. Blairism is poisoned and derided within the party.
How can the other candidates position themselves? More importantly, what is Labour *for*.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
I remember talking to my Dad about that when I was a kid.
His business had only one major competitor which ran into trouble in the early 1990s following a change in management. I commented that I thought that was great - and was surprised when he disagreed strongly: he was worried about the risk of complacency setting in among his partners.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
Ha Ha Ha , at least they have a trick , not just a bunch of donkeys running about knifing each other.
Malcolm, isn't that a bit harsh? In my experience donkeys are placid and amiable creatures and not given to fighting of any sort, certainly not with knives.
ydoethur, You are correct and I apologise to real donkeys everywhere. I shall use some suitable alternative in future.
I'm sure Momentum will be very helpful in telling everyone how to participate in this election.
Tempted as I am to vote Corbyn. I think it might be time to put the national interest first and I'm not sure that 50 years of unbroken tory rule is in the national interest.
Trouble is of the known candidates, I think the other two are worse than Corbyn.
I shall have to regale PB with my musings as I struggle over the summer with this agonising choice. Deciding on the most suitable leader for a party that I basically have loathed since experiencing Loony Left Lambeths shenanigans in the early 80s. Aint life grand.
It should be left to true left-wing voters to vote for Labour's leader.
Having said that, it'll be interesting to see the candidates' visions for the country. I think we can guess at Corbyn's as it has not changed in thirty years. But what will Eagles and/or Smith etc offer as a vision?
There is a poor choice: Corbyn's hard left is loony. Blairism is poisoned and derided within the party.
How can the other candidates position themselves? More importantly, what is Labour *for*.
I wish someone like Hoey, Stuart or Field would stand.
Much as I'm no fan of Labour - let alone Corbyn - the Tories need a functioning opposition to keep them on their toes (and no, the 'one-trick-ponies' from the SNP don't count) - and whatever the result of the ballot, it looks like we're still some way from that.....
Ha Ha Ha , at least they have a trick , not just a bunch of donkeys running about knifing each other.
Malcolm, isn't that a bit harsh? In my experience donkeys are placid and amiable creatures and not given to fighting of any sort, certainly not with knives.
ydoethur, You are correct and I apologise to real donkeys everywhere. I shall use some suitable alternative in future.
I think in future we shall all be measuring the viciousness of gang warfare by how closely it resembles the Labour Party!
Casting my eye ahead to the next general election, I wondered if there was a book on how many seats seats Labour could be reduced to .. 150-180 seems a good guess right now.
That assumes a staggering recovery somehow as right now I think they'd struggle to get to 100. In terms of a 2020 election I'd be looking in the 140-160 range at the moment.
The Trots will get in to vote via the various affiliates. The Tweets and the emails about how to do it are already being sent out. You can join various organisations for a pittance, cast your vote and then stop paying the monthly fee.
There is absolutely no way on earth Eagle or anyone else will get close to Corbyn. I'd expect him to win by a wider margin than he did last time.
So what? The Corbyn side of Labour is clearly more organised and determined than any other, people need to stop sniping from the sidelines and DO something. Problem is nobody can put forward a candidate with any sort of decent credentials, Labour stands for nothing beyond its North London coterie.
I genuinely thought it'd be the Tories who would be consumed by some sort of crisis after the EU Referendum. Instead, the tories seem to have steadied the ship, while Labour, who should really be hammering the tories by now, have gone buck wild. Shows what I know about politics!
Comments
20% Tory poll leads ahead.
"UNITE has made its membership free of charge in the wake of the membership freeze decision. Those who sign up will be eligible to vote as affiliated supporters."
http://www.unitetheunion.org/campaigning/unitepolitics/your-party-your-voice/
Secondly, to the extent that people are dissatisfied with Corbyn, that is likely to melt away when presented with the very flawed alternative. In some ways it's similar to how, in the mid-term of a government, people reflexively say they dislike the government, but then when election time comes, they stop just thinking about whether they like or dislike the incumbent, and instead start comparing them with the alternative. My prediction would be that, as soon as this campaign proper starts, and people see and hear more from Eagle, all the exact same issues that caused Corbyn to originally surge last summer will resurface (namely, the fact that the "moderates" don't stand for anything at all and don't have a clue how to win elections themselves). As much as Labour members are rightly frustrated by Corbyn's unforced errors, I predict they will want to return to the dark days of abstentions on the Welfare Bill and empty platitudes about "fairness" and "aspiration" even less.
While it may be Labour party associations that select MPs, and the MPs, party members and affiliated Unions that decide the Labour Leader. Surely there should also be far more recognition of the wider electoral mandate that individual MPs receive? No serious political party that seeks to form a government or act as the Main Opposition can function with a Leader that fails to have confidence or backing of its Parliamentary party. The NEC have taken a decision to back Corbyn rather than the PLP by putting him on the Labour Leadership ballot despite the fact he would fail to get even the nominations required by the other candidates. This now shows how both the NEC and the Labour Leadership rules are totally unfit for purpose when a Leader won't respect the verdict of the PLP.
Keeping Corbyn off the ballot (against the rules IMO) was obviously going to totally undermine whoever won.
And these timing restrictions on who can vote seem sensible. Neither side will be able to claim that the party has been infiltrated by Tories/SWP...
The worst outcome for Labour as I see it would be a very narrow Corbyn victory. He needs to win big or lose.
PEC moves Trump up to 232, his highest level ever...
Tony Blair has been receiving an extraordinary pension of up to £80,000 a year since the day he quit Downing Street.
.......Currently aged 49, Mr Cameron will have to wait until he turns 65 to get the still-generous income of around £20,000.
He will also be entitled to a backbench MPs’ pension - still a gold-plated final salary settlement of around £26,000 a year that most workers can only dream of.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3686348/Cameron-remortgages-house-walks-away-Downing-Street-40-000-pension-20-000-pay-ll-FAR-Tony-Blair-family-live.html
Meanwhile I wait for some radio ads from no-fee lawyers to tell people how to claim their compensation for the great labour membership mis-selling scandal...
Why am I not alarmed at the prospect of Theresa May becoming prime minister this week without a contested leadership election, let alone a general election, when Gordon Brown’s similar “coronation” in 2007 left me full of foreboding?
Two reasons stand out. The most important is that the British state faces an existential crisis by virtue of 23 June’s slender majority to withdraw from the EU. It desperately needed to fill the power vacuum created by David Cameron’s refusal to stick around and sweep up the broken glass from his reckless referendum gamble.
May’s “Keep Calm” claims were thus enhanced by the fact that she kept her nerve and dignity. Commentators have piled in – here’s Gaby Hinsliff’s excellent piece – to explain her, but Theresa walks by herself, as many successful leaders do.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2016/jul/12/theresa-may-best-candidate-pm
As Jeremy Corbyn winds Labour into an ever tighter ball of cannibalistic, auto-destructive irrelevance, the practical pursuit of English politics – the business of designing competing policies, arguing their merits and negotiating compromises to see them enacted – looks now almost entirely contained within Conservative circles. That is not a healthy condition for a multiparty democracy, but under May’s leadership it might prove to be an oddly sustainable one. Britain has progressed from a state of acute political emergency to something more stable but still chronic, where immediate relief from pain, albeit welcome, is no substitute for recovery.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/12/theresa-may-tory-prime-minister-england
It will cost at least 10 Lattes to buy back in to the cardgame.
I'm thinking we need a new word to be the British "Tammany Hall". Beer and Smoke Filled rooms are no longer relevant.
Previously, prime ministers had to surrender their MPs' pensions on entering Downing Street and picked up pensions worth 37% of their salary as premier. Mr Major is understood to have surrendered his MP's salary before the new regulations came into force.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-161502/Storm-Blairs-3-19m-pension.html
Is this up there with the news about Queen Anne?
Its difficult to keep track.....
(Peston)
what a bunch of charmers they are, this lot!
It would complete the symbolism at least!
The Trots will get in to vote via the various affiliates. The Tweets and the emails about how to do it are already being sent out. You can join various organisations for a pittance, cast your vote and then stop paying the monthly fee.
There is absolutely no way on earth Eagle or anyone else will get close to Corbyn. I'd expect him to win by a wider margin than he did last time.
So in addition to cutting his successor's salary just before he left, Mr Brown could also have taken the immediate "pension".
It would take an FOI to find out, but I would not be surprised given my subterranean opinion of Gordon Brown.
IIRC For £2 anyone can join Unite Community and gain a vote that way. I gather that's open until 8th August.
Momentum were promoting this widely on Twitter last night.
http://www.unitetheunion.org/growing-our-union/communitymembership/
I still recall several revealing articles in the Guardian from yrs ago where he was totally candid about his intentions. And many here poo-poo'd the whole thing as complete nonsense.
Corbyn allowed Len to pass go and collect £200 much more quickly than he envisaged - but his agenda was there for all to see.
The figure is even higher as Gordon Brown and then David Cameron took significantly lower pay than the £196,000 Mr Blair was on.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3686348/Cameron-remortgages-house-walks-away-Downing-Street-40-000-pension-20-000-pay-ll-FAR-Tony-Blair-family-live.html
Edit: And Brown cut his own salary.
It is therefore desirable from Labour's perspective that their leader reflects the background and attitudes of this group in order to have the best chance of appealing to them, so a married WASP man/woman is preferable. Labour can't afford to take a PC view, and unfortunately, neither Angela Eagle nor Owen Smith meet these criteria.
I always felt in 2010 that Labour chose the wrong Ed. However, given the contempt in which Blair/Brown are now held, particularly post Chilcot, it would now also be desirable for Labour's leader not to be tarred by association with them.
If no suitable candidate comes forward, it might be better for Labour to stick with Corbyn for the time being, until he has clearly failed electorally - the foundations on which the current attempted coup has been built are too flimsy. Corbyn is not responsible for Brexit - Cameron and Osborne are and have paid the ultimate political price for their hubris.
When you think things through this way you can see how most of the 1997-2010 Gov'ts worked - and also why Blair was ousted by Brown. Blair was for sure an ends/means man but then Brown came along and his acolytes outdid even Blair with this philosophy.
I remain very dubious about UKIP's ability to win swathes of seats in the North and Midlands from Labour, because I do not see what platform they could credibly stand on to attract switchers. Given that we are now leaving the EU that calling card has gone. That leaves all immigration and the temptation will be to head ever further right on that, especially if migrant numbers do fall from here on in. As the BNP has shown in the past that will win protest votes but not enough votes. A really serious UKIP challenge only happens when the party moves credibly leftwards on economic and fiscal policy - and that will be hard for a leadership and membership that is essentially Thatcherite.
So, I'd expect that what will happen at the next election is that Labour will lose votes in its heartlands but very few seats, the LibDems will have something of a resurgence in their old heartlands with Labour voters moving back to them, and the Tories will absolutely clean up in all marginal. Overall, therefore, I'd say we are looking at potentially the biggest Tory majority since the war at the next GE. And in a best case scenario that will take at least two more general elections to unwind.
As a 52 year old, I doubt I'll live to see another centre left government in this country.
On Brown cutting his own salary, I believe he didn't take the full £196k (taking £150k instead on a voluntary basis), then one month before he left power he cut the formal salary for the position to £150k.
Thereby he denied the choice he had made to his successors.
The term for that is "shafting".
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gordon-brown-reveals-his-massive-pay-215970
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mandrake/7805707/Gordon-Brown-accepts-a-pay-cut-for-David-Cameron.html
I cannot see Labour recovering from this debacle.
Did you know Jax Teller was in Byker Grove?
Fifteen years later, we had another Conservative PM (albeit in coalition).
I think Labour are doomed in a 2020 GE. That leaves 2025. Hopefully a drubbing in 2020 will lead them to elect someone actually sane as leader. By that time there will have been Conservative PMs for fifteen years: long enough for Toryism to have got stale with the electorate (13 years for Blairism, 17 for Thatcherism).
This goes out of the window if Labour does split, in which case the political landscape will be very different.
How precisely you price 'the good of the country'.
It does seem unfair to retrospectively disenfranchise members though- I think you're right on that...
Does that mean I get a vote?
52 + 3 general elections = 67!
I'm sure Momentum will be very helpful in telling everyone how to participate in this election.
Not even certain that it will just be him and Eagle at this stage.
Trouble is of the known candidates, I think the other two are worse than Corbyn.
I shall have to regale PB with my musings as I struggle over the summer with this agonising choice. Deciding on the most suitable leader for a party that I basically have loathed since experiencing Loony Left Lambeths shenanigans in the early 80s. Aint life grand.
Stevie K looking at you.
But despite that, I wouldn't give up hope on a centre left government after 2025 - the last year has been so weird that I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn suddenly stood down to allow Blair another crack. It'd be no less weird than the Tory campaign - e.g. Leadsom's torpedoing of her own campaign or Gove and Boris slamming each other down.
Isn't politics fun atm?
Looks like I've got someone to vote for.
SNP Government didn't send out a 'blanket letter' to inform Scottish parents about the Named Person law, but now says this is the right approach after Brexit vote!
The Courier - German woman resident in Tayside ‘alarmed’ by Brexit letter
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/221851/german-woman-alarmed-brexit-letter/
"An SNP spokesman said: “Graeme Dey and other SNP parliamentarians have rightly taken the lead in engaging with EU citizens in their constituencies and ensuring them that they remain welcome in Scotland and their contribution is valued.”"
It said in the article that the local [MP] MSP co-signed the letter. I thought there were rules about that sort of thing - if the MSP signs it then it changes from being a governmental communication to a party-political one and ought to be paid for by the party?
I've also had a nibble on Rachel Reeves at 220-1 as a long-term prospect.
Ray
Labour genuinely seem to have forgotten who they're supposed to represent, though. On the one hand, you have the London-centric party, and I'd include a large swathe of the MPs in that, who find it difficult to connect with the working class side of the population. The Corbyn wing of the party say all the right things, but have gathered a following of hard left student activists, who seem to have gone back to the Cold War era.
I guess there will always be the places where a donkey in a red rosette will walk a GE, but surely outside of theses areas, Labour will fade off? The LIb Dems could yet make a comeback, sooner than we thought.
What a couple of weeks we've had, and the end is nowhere near in sight, except, perhaps for the Labour party as we know it.
There will have been an inquest, but I imagine the main problems were logistical given the circumstances.
Edit - it has only been three weeks, although I know it feels like a lifetime. My mother's funeral took well over a month just to arrange.
Having said that, it'll be interesting to see the candidates' visions for the country. I think we can guess at Corbyn's as it has not changed in thirty years. But what will Eagles and/or Smith etc offer as a vision?
There is a poor choice:
Corbyn's hard left is loony.
Blairism is poisoned and derided within the party.
How can the other candidates position themselves? More importantly, what is Labour *for*.
His business had only one major competitor which ran into trouble in the early 1990s following a change in management. I commented that I thought that was great - and was surprised when he disagreed strongly: he was worried about the risk of complacency setting in among his partners.
Instead, the tories seem to have steadied the ship, while Labour, who should really be hammering the tories by now, have gone buck wild.
Shows what I know about politics!