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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fear and loathing in the Tory Party. Whatever the result of

SystemSystem Posts: 12,267
edited May 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fear and loathing in the Tory Party. Whatever the result of the referendum, the Tory party is looking ungovernable

A pro-Brexit Tory MP actually said this. Story by @ShippersUnbound and @STJamesl pic.twitter.com/ZHpW1oYwk1

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    https://twitter.com/queen_uk/status/736998962419372032

    Well that's settled then...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    :o
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Nicholas Soames's Twitter feed is quickly becoming a must-read.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    https://twitter.com/jnr_richard/status/737002781844897793

    Nailed it.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Perhaps David Cameron's psychiatrist is trying to understand his motives for calling a referendum.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    https://twitter.com/SaintMarlin/status/737002228523933696
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/SaintMarlin/status/737002228523933696

    Or be forced to watch top gear USA instead...
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    dr_spyn said:

    Perhaps David Cameron's psychiatrist is trying to understand his motives for calling a referendum.

    Cameron doesn't care he will be working for Goldman soon.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    O/T ... Bloody typical, just sent a note to the council politely asking where my postal ballot was. Walked outside and found it in my letter box....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    A small fraction of the viewership. Well, what used to be the viewership :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    UKIP taking a poll lead by the end of the summer may be worth a punt if Remain win narrowly, the Tories will be ripping themselves to shreds, Labour will be just as incompetent and angry Leave voters will be frothing at the mouth!!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Shame all these Tory rebels don't have the balls to stand as independents under their principles and beliefs.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited May 2016
    God is there still 20 mins to go...

    Twitter is kinder to the Tories than top gear...the criticism is brutal.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    saddened said:

    Shame all these Tory rebels don't have the balls to stand as independents under their principles and beliefs.

    Shame they believed Cameron when he said he was going to get meaningful renegotiation. Cameron is the one at fault here. He doesn't own the Tory party. No Leader does and if he abuses the party then he deserves to be dumped.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    New Top Gear > GO
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    HurstLlama said:

    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.

    Cameron's such a cad, he's giving the electorate the In/Out referendum he promised he would.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    Good news, assuming nothing major happens overnight, I'll be publishing Roger's next piece in the morning.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    saddened said:

    Shame all these Tory rebels don't have the balls to stand as independents under their principles and beliefs.

    Shame they believed Cameron when he said he was going to get meaningful renegotiation. Cameron is the one at fault here. He doesn't own the Tory party. No Leader does and if he abuses the party then he deserves to be dumped.

    Worse than that, he deliberately split it. He can't survive.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    "Back to the pain" say Leblanc. Sums it up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    nunu said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Perhaps David Cameron's psychiatrist is trying to understand his motives for calling a referendum.

    Cameron doesn't care he will be working for Goldman soon.
    For a few hours a week for a an enormous sum I expect, he will spend the rest of the time chillaxing in a mansion in Oxfordshire and leave the Tories to it!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    OT Someone on FB posted up a fragment of poetry which I think sums up perfectly the current argument over Brexit. This should be on a Leave poster

    “There is freedom waiting for you,
    On the breezes of the sky,
    And you ask "What if I fall?"
    Oh but my darling,
    What if you fly?”
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Good news, assuming nothing major happens overnight, I'll be publishing Roger's next piece in the morning.

    That is good news. He has a 100% strike record of excellent thread headers so far.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
    3 will be May, Hammond and Clarkson. They must be loving it.

    Why did you bother, BBC? Why? It's like asking life-long Liverpool fans to start cheering Everton every week.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    saddened said:

    Shame all these Tory rebels don't have the balls to stand as independents under their principles and beliefs.

    Shame they believed Cameron when he said he was going to get meaningful renegotiation. Cameron is the one at fault here. He doesn't own the Tory party. No Leader does and if he abuses the party then he deserves to be dumped.

    And shame that on not getting meaningful renegotiation's,he didn't recommend leave like he told us he would.

    Saddened though that saddened is for in.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    MarqueeMark said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
    3 will be May, Hammond and Clarkson. They must be loving it.

    Why did you bother, BBC? Why? It's like asking life-long Liverpool fans to start cheering Everton every week.
    Ending on a wet beach in Blackpool with 2 jeeps and some drag queens, rather sums it up!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    MarqueeMark said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
    3 will be May, Hammond and Clarkson. They must be loving it.

    Why did you bother, BBC? Why? It's like asking life-long Liverpool fans to start cheering Everton every week.
    I can see a new amazon piss take advert coming on...
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    MarkSenior said:



    I am ignoring nothing . I am simply pointing out that Yougov ( on whose figures your calculations are based ) are showing many more Labour 2015 to UKIP now switchers than the phone pollsters and more even than ICM online polls Having just checked Comres last online poll their figure is 4% similar to ICM and well below Yougovs figure .

    "Well below Yougovs figure"? Not so. Check out the source data and you'll see that there were 477 Labour voters in total from 2015 (282 In, 137 Out, 58 Uncommitted). 22 of these (all Out) have switched to UKIP. So that's YouGov finding 4.6% (22/477) Lab to UKIP switchers compared to 4% ComRes. Thus there are 16% (22/137) Lab Out to UKIP switchers, the figure I cite in the piece. Overall 42% of the 137 2015 Lab Out voters have switched, to various parties or DK/DV/Ref, so the UKIP element in that is a minority of the total anyway.

    I am also pointing out the existence of false recall for switchers, the difficulty of phone pollsters in dealing with it, and that it is a much less serious issue for YouGov. As a consequence I would be concerned if in the source data YouGov were not identifying more switchers than phone pollsters. Because of that I fail to see the grounds for your claim that "the problem remains with your source data".
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    As twitter is completely representative of the British public I was wondering what PM Miliband thought of "Top Gear"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    https://twitter.com/MollieRamsell/status/737006451017781248
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.

    Cameron's such a cad, he's giving the electorate the In/Out referendum he promised he would.
    You don't see a contradiction between what Cameron has previously said/promised about the EU and what he is now saying?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    @KTHopkins 46m46 minutes ago
    I hate cars. But loved Top Gear. Now I can safely say I hate both #TopGear
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    MarqueeMark said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
    3 will be May, Hammond and Clarkson. They must be loving it.

    Why did you bother, BBC? Why? It's like asking life-long Liverpool fans to start cheering Everton every week.
    I'm wondering why, too. Money I suppose. They should have realised it was a show about the three blokes... the cars were an added extra.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    JackW said:

    As twitter is completely representative of the British public I was wondering what PM Miliband thought of "Top Gear"?

    To be fair, the Twitterati probably makes up a bigger share of the "sad enough to be watching telly on a Sunday night" contingent than it does the general electorate.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Matt
    "Hey we can cut that bit out"

    Does he mean from opening credits to the closing credits.

    To be fair I gave this a go. It's bad. If it had not been done before it probably would have been reasonable. The narration of that monotone Matt is painful.

    Nah sorry crap.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    edited May 2016
    Danny565 said:

    JackW said:

    As twitter is completely representative of the British public I was wondering what PM Miliband thought of "Top Gear"?

    To be fair, the Twitterati probably makes up a bigger share of the "sad enough to be watching telly on a Sunday night" contingent than it does the general electorate.
    Actually most of us are watching telly on a Sunday night (albeit this is a bank holiday weekend), Friday and Saturday night maybe rather less so. That is why the biggest dramas of recent years, Downton, the Night Manager etc all go out 9pm on Sunday
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Moses_ said:

    Matt
    "Hey we can cut that bit out"

    Does he mean from opening credits to the closing credits.

    To be fair I gave this a go. It's bad. If it had not been done before it probably would have been reasonable. The narration of that monotone Matt is painful.

    Nah sorry crap.

    Given how long and the amount of money they have had to throw at this, everything was basically a copy of an old Top Gear....un-Reliant Robin gag, check. racing 4x4's up a mountain, check...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    HurstLlama said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.

    Cameron's such a cad, he's giving the electorate the In/Out referendum he promised he would.
    You don't see a contradiction between what Cameron has previously said/promised about the EU and what he is now saying?
    I do, but it's not a bigger contradiction than what Lady Thatcher said and did, and he's giving you a referendum.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    If people have stopped obsessing about a car programme, Farpaisean Chon-Chaorach has just started on Alba - perhaps we can retweet about that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    Dan Snow on Jutland now
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    A small fraction of the viewership. Well, what used to be the viewership :D
    Most comments are about Evans shouting all the time, old show retread, hostage video audience and wooden highly scripted Jeremy copy cat banter
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Top Gear, well I am biased, but dear me that was dire. It was always going to be a hard act to follow, perhaps BBC should have just laid it to rest.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.

    Cameron's such a cad, he's giving the electorate the In/Out referendum he promised he would.
    You don't see a contradiction between what Cameron has previously said/promised about the EU and what he is now saying?
    I do, but it's not a bigger contradiction than what Lady Thatcher said and did, and he's giving you a referendum.
    So he is an untrustworthy SoB whose word cannot be accepted at face value - he will in other words lie through his teeth when it suits him. I am glad we have that clear between us. That you still think him fit to be Prime Minister I find astonishing.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    RobD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    23.3k tweets. 23, 292 hate it.

    Were the other 8 by BBC PR department?
    3 will be May, Hammond and Clarkson. They must be loving it.

    Why did you bother, BBC? Why? It's like asking life-long Liverpool fans to start cheering Everton every week.
    I'm wondering why, too. Money I suppose. They should have realised it was a show about the three blokes... the cars were an added extra.
    The reasonably priced car was IIRC a £25k Mini Cooper.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Isn't there now "Extra Gear" with all the bits that didn't make the main show...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    https://twitter.com/StefanMordue/status/737012571094560768
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    edited May 2016
    No sign of the bodiless hand voting Remain in my instructions:

    http://i.imgur.com/7zmlgd2.jpg?1
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    jayfdee said:

    Top Gear, well I am biased, but dear me that was dire. It was always going to be a hard act to follow, perhaps BBC should have just laid it to rest.

    If it were a Broadway show, it'd close on opening night.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    MarkSenior said:



    I am ignoring nothing . I am simply pointing out that Yougov ( on whose figures your calculations are based ) are showing many more Labour 2015 to UKIP now switchers than the phone pollsters and more even than ICM online polls Having just checked Comres last online poll their figure is 4% similar to ICM and well below Yougovs figure .

    "Well below Yougovs figure"? Not so. Check out the source data and you'll see that there were 477 Labour voters in total from 2015 (282 In, 137 Out, 58 Uncommitted). 22 of these (all Out) have switched to UKIP. So that's YouGov finding 4.6% (22/477) Lab to UKIP switchers compared to 4% ComRes. Thus there are 16% (22/137) Lab Out to UKIP switchers, the figure I cite in the piece. Overall 42% of the 137 2015 Lab Out voters have switched, to various parties or DK/DV/Ref, so the UKIP element in that is a minority of the total anyway.

    I am also pointing out the existence of false recall for switchers, the difficulty of phone pollsters in dealing with it, and that it is a much less serious issue for YouGov. As a consequence I would be concerned if in the source data YouGov were not identifying more switchers than phone pollsters. Because of that I fail to see the grounds for your claim that "the problem remains with your source data".
    Last comment on this subject , the difference as I have pointed out is not just between Yougov and the Online pollsters but with other online pollsters also . ICM in particular have done research on false recall and it is nothing like on the scale that you seem to imply . A strange feature of the post 2010 GE polling was that more people said they had voted Lib Dem than actually had .
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    edited May 2016
    SeanT said:

    Top Gear is distressingly bad. Awful.

    Somewhere in BBC HQ there is an accountant looking at the numbers in despair as they see £100m in annual global sales disappear. Goodbye Radio 5?

    It has a positive in that it could force the BBC to push through the reforms Whittingdale ducked ie advertising for its most popular programmes like Strictly and Eastenders and making the iplayer subscription only
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    I have a sneaking suspicion that Alternative Top Gear won't be up to much. It was already tired before it got the axe and you it felt a lot like they were phoning it in. They have now given a massive fat cheque. Often with "talent" that is the worst thing to do to get motivated performances.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    https://twitter.com/blondielocks28/status/737013830295900160
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    But remember, if Cameron hadn't got that deal he would have recommended Leave.

    And if anyone believes that, god help you.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    I honestly don't think anyone would have got a good enough deal, no matter how good at politics they are. The EU just wouldn't accept it.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    PlatoSaid said:

    jayfdee said:

    Top Gear, well I am biased, but dear me that was dire. It was always going to be a hard act to follow, perhaps BBC should have just laid it to rest.

    If it were a Broadway show, it'd close on opening night.
    Maybe like "The Producers"
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anyway, it's good to know that for even the most demented Europhobes there's something that ranks as more important than the referendum: a TV show about cars.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Top Gear is distressingly bad. Awful.

    Somewhere in BBC HQ there is an accountant looking at the numbers in despair as they see £100m in annual global sales disappear. Goodbye Radio 5?

    It has a positive in that it could force the BBC to push through the reforms Whittingdale ducked ie advertising for its most popular programmes like Strictly and Eastenders
    Adverts on the BBC? No thank you!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
    You avoid the question.

    Cameron promised serious reform in his Bloomberg speech. Either he was knowingly talking crap and knew he couldn't deliver, or he really hoped to deliver and then failed miserably.

    So he is either an arrant liar or a truly shit politician. There is no other alternative. Which rather undermines your argument.

    He's now getting the payback for his failure or his lies - or both, probably.
    You avoid my answer. There was no deal that would satisfy the headbangers. They are angry that they are losing, not at the deal secured.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    ThreeQuidder said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    saddened said:

    Shame all these Tory rebels don't have the balls to stand as independents under their principles and beliefs.

    Shame they believed Cameron when he said he was going to get meaningful renegotiation. Cameron is the one at fault here. He doesn't own the Tory party. No Leader does and if he abuses the party then he deserves to be dumped.

    Worse than that, he deliberately split it. He can't survive.
    He regards the EU as being more important than his party.

    Your tree Dave. You're the one sitting in it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    edited May 2016
    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Top Gear is distressingly bad. Awful.

    Somewhere in BBC HQ there is an accountant looking at the numbers in despair as they see £100m in annual global sales disappear. Goodbye Radio 5?

    It has a positive in that it could force the BBC to push through the reforms Whittingdale ducked ie advertising for its most popular programmes like Strictly and Eastenders
    Adverts on the BBC? No thank you!
    I don't see why not for its most popular programming. In return some of the licence fee could be shared with C4 and ITV for cultural and highbrow programmes without advertising
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
    A decent deal would have probably brought the likes of Gove and Johnson onside and neutralised the immigration issue leaving only cranks eccentrics and gadflies on the other side
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    You have to feel sorry...some poor sods in the BBC PR department are going to be busy....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
    You avoid the question.

    Cameron promised serious reform in his Bloomberg speech. Either he was knowingly talking crap and knew he couldn't deliver, or he really hoped to deliver and then failed miserably.

    So he is either an arrant liar or a truly shit politician. There is no other alternative. Which rather undermines your argument.

    He's now getting the payback for his failure or his lies - or both, probably.
    You avoid my answer. There was no deal that would satisfy the headbangers. They are angry that they are losing, not at the deal secured.
    I entirely agree with you re the headbangers. Cameron could have delivered the corpse of Jacques Delors, impaled on a nine foot Union Jack coloured dildo, and they would still have rebelled.

    Now address my point. Re the reform, Cameron was either lying in his promises, or he failed terribly in his negotiation. My guess is both. Yours?
    Anyone who thought that David Cameron was ever going to advocate leaving the EU really wasn't paying attention.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Anyway, it's good to know that for even the most demented Europhobes there's something that ranks as more important than the referendum: a TV show about cars.

    Ironically Clarkson backs Remain
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
    You avoid the question.

    Cameron promised serious reform in his Bloomberg speech. Either he was knowingly talking crap and knew he couldn't deliver, or he really hoped to deliver and then failed miserably.

    So he is either an arrant liar or a truly shit politician. There is no other alternative. Which rather undermines your argument.

    He's now getting the payback for his failure or his lies - or both, probably.
    You avoid my answer. There was no deal that would satisfy the headbangers. They are angry that they are losing, not at the deal secured.
    I entirely agree with you re the headbangers. Cameron could have delivered the corpse of Jacques Delors, impaled on a nine foot Union Jack coloured dildo, and they would still have rebelled.

    Now address my point. Re the reform, Cameron was either lying in his promises, or he failed terribly in his negotiation. My guess is both. Yours?
    Anyone who thought that David Cameron was ever going to advocate leaving the EU really wasn't paying attention.
    FFS answer my question. So you admit he was lying in his Bloomberg speech? Or what?
    I'm sure he thinks he got significant reform. It is amazing what people can persuade themselves is true.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited May 2016
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HurstLlama said:

    Darth Eagles, I don't know about fear and loathing within the Conservative Party and frankly couldn't give a toss about its internal squabbles. However, in the last few months Cameron has proved that nobody should believe a word he says. He ought to be hounded out of office and he can take his incompetent chum Osborne with him.

    Cameron's such a cad, he's giving the electorate the In/Out referendum he promised he would.
    You don't see a contradiction between what Cameron has previously said/promised about the EU and what he is now saying?
    I do, but it's not a bigger contradiction than what Lady Thatcher said and did, and he's giving you a referendum.
    The problem is that paraphrasing Sir Geoffery Howe having agreed to the match he nobbled the umpire, packed the ground with his supporters and sneaked into the other sides changing room and broke all their bats an hour before the match started to try and make sure his side won and has spent the whole match so far sledging the other sides captain for not playing on his side and putting horror films on the electronic scoreboard between overs to frighten the fans children.

    Result is that he is now more despised than Heath.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    It has tempted me too, but then I'd have to live with being a Leaver
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    So which was worse: Top Gear (part deux) or Cameron's 'deal'?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Alternative Top Gear won't be up to much. It was already tired before it got the axe and you it felt a lot like they were phoning it in. They have now given a massive fat cheque. Often with "talent" that is the worst thing to do to get motivated performances.

    The format has got tired, but I cannot say that the new presenters have helped.

    I hope that the old trio have some new ideas, otherwise TG RIP 1916.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Not necessary. They've already crossed the event horizon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736916673056362497
    https://twitter.com/Gnorrn/status/736931884299476992
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736939020924641281
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There was no deal that would have satisfied the hardcore Leavers. That the deal actually brought back was pisspoor is an irrelevance. Do you really think that IDS was waiting for a new settlement to throw himself joyfully behind Remain?
    You avoid the question.

    Cameron promised serious reform in his Bloomberg speech. Either he was knowingly talking crap and knew he couldn't deliver, or he really hoped to deliver and then failed miserably.

    So he is either an arrant liar or a truly shit politician. There is no other alternative. Which rather undermines your argument.

    He's now getting the payback for his failure or his lies - or both, probably.
    You avoid my answer. There was no deal that would satisfy the headbangers. They are angry that they are losing, not at the deal secured.
    I entirely agree with you re the headbangers. Cameron could have delivered the corpse of Jacques Delors, impaled on a nine foot Union Jack coloured dildo, and they would still have rebelled.

    Now address my point. Re the reform, Cameron was either lying in his promises, or he failed terribly in his negotiation. My guess is both. Yours?
    Anyone who thought that David Cameron was ever going to advocate leaving the EU really wasn't paying attention.
    FFS answer my question. So you admit he was lying in his Bloomberg speech? Or what?
    I'm sure he thinks he got significant reform. It is amazing what people can persuade themselves is true.
    Oh god, that's just desperate. Of course Cameron knows he's got fuck all. He may be a wanker, but he's not stupid. Compare Bloomberg with the deal. It's embarrassing.
    Tony Blair has spent ten years arguing that Iraq wasn't a mistake. I expect he believes that too.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    HYUFD said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Anyway, it's good to know that for even the most demented Europhobes there's something that ranks as more important than the referendum: a TV show about cars.

    Ironically Clarkson backs Remain
    Idiosyncratically speaking, something good can grow in a midden.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    He will look a right prune if leave win by one vote lol
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Surely after remain win the referendum the attention will change to the Chilcott Iraq war inquiry.
    Cameron has timed this perfectly to change the agenda, keep Corbyn in place.

    He will leave on his own terms, at a time of his choosing, and will get as much support on his last day in parliament from the opposing bench as Blair did.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited May 2016
    Ironically the "unknown" presenters on the Extra Gear "yuff" show aren't bad. Chris Harris does old "Top Gear" style in news section far more naturally than shouty Evans et al. on the main show.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited May 2016
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736916673056362497
    https://twitter.com/Gnorrn/status/736931884299476992
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736939020924641281
    Well, his last wheeze of pairing his vote in Twickenham, worked brilliantly, didn't it.

    What was the phrase by Private Frazer?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AlastairMeeks said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Not necessary. They've already crossed the event horizon.
    I am sure that is correct. Whichever side wins, the Tories lose.

    Popcorn time ;-)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    And nothing to do at all with that 10/1 betting slip backing LEAVE that Mike found down the back of a sofa .... :smiley:
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Makes sense I suppose if someone believes some or all of:

    a) the EU is doomed anyway;
    b) the EU is largely inconsequential;
    c) the EU will do what the money requires on trade so change will be minimal;
    d) Cameron is a net benefit to the Tories electorally.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    foxinsoxuk said:



    AlastairMeeks said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Not necessary. They've already crossed the event horizon.
    I am sure that is correct. Whichever side wins, the Tories lose.

    Popcorn time ;-)
    Five years of Corbyn and co is a price worth paying to get my country back.

    At least Corbyn and McDonnel actually believe in something.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,296
    I actually defended Cameron on here when he brought back a rubbish deal - at least he's given us a referendum, I said; the crappiness of the deal was inevitable given that nature of the EU, and was probably the best we could have got. Of course, if he'd come back with some brilliant deal like associate membership, I could have supported Remain, but I didn't think that outcome was ever particularly likely.
    It's not the crappy nature of the deal which has destroyed my trust in Cameron; it's the twattish way he's conducted the campaign since. His lies have been so transparent and egregious that he's destroyed his credibility, and his approach to his campaign has destroyed his likeability. I voted Conservative in10 and 15, but I can't see me doing so again until the party get rid of him.
    That said, I don't know who I'd vote for instead. Even a Tory party led by Cameron is preferable to a Corbyn government.
    For the avoidance of doubt, all thoughts above aimed at Cameron also apply to George Osborne, only more so.
    I can quite understand why the parliamentary party loathes them.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    foxinsoxuk said:



    AlastairMeeks said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Not necessary. They've already crossed the event horizon.
    I am sure that is correct. Whichever side wins, the Tories lose.

    Popcorn time ;-)
    But will Labour capitalise on it. No, not with Corbyn as leader.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736916673056362497
    https://twitter.com/Gnorrn/status/736931884299476992
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736939020924641281
    Well, his last wheeze of pairing his vote in Twickenham, worked brilliantly, didn't it.

    What was the phrase by Private Frazer?
    To be fair there have been lots of people on both sides saying they are voting a particular way for their children and grandchildren's sake. In this case we happen to know that Smithson Junior is a Leave fan so maybe OGH is just going to vote Leave for Robert's sake.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    The BBC should have rebuilt Top Gear from the ground up. First principles. Amusing new presenters with an entirely different dynamic and entirely fresh ideas.

    Instead they tried to replace Morecambe and Wise with an animated cardboard cut-out of Eric Morecambe and a guy whose name sounds like Ernie Wise, and everything else the same. Expecting the chemistry to work.

    I never watched any of Evans' other shows, so I was not fully prepared for just how spectacularly annoying he is
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    The world's first floating sperm donation clinic has opened, it's on a tug boat.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,164
    Cookie said:

    I voted Conservative in10 and 15, but I can't see me doing so again until the party get rid of him.

    Luckily for you he's standing down before the next election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,734
    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    SeanT said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    All of which was utterly predictable. David Cameron has behaved exactly in character and the Tory headbangers have behaved exactly in character. Tory Leavers didn't really just want a referendum, they wanted to win. They will never forgive anyone who they perceive to have thwarted them.

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit

    If Cameron is so ruthless at politics and brilliant at wining, how come he didn't win a decent renegotiation in Brussels? How come he came back with a deal so insultingly bad, he himself has barely mentioned it since?

    THAT was his Original Sin. That was the grotesque failure - or the howling and deliberate lie - from which all else springs.
    There ehind Remain?
    You avoid the question.

    Camerr both, probably.
    You avoid my answer. There was no deal that would satisfy the headbangers. They are angry that they are losing, not at the deal secured.
    I entirely agree with you re the headbangers. Cameron could have delivered the corpse of Jacques Delors, impaled on a nine foot Union Jack coloured dildo, and they would still have rebelled.

    Now address my point. Re the reform, Cameron was either lying in his promises, or he failed terribly in his negotiation. My guess is both. Yours?
    Anyone who thought that David Cameron was ever going to advocate leaving the EU really wasn't paying attention.
    FFS answer my question. So you admit he was lying in his Bloomberg speech? Or what?
    I'm sure he thinks he got significant reform. It is amazing what people can persuade themselves is true.
    Oh god, that's just desperate. Of course Cameron knows he's got fuck all. He may be a wanker, but he's not stupid. Compare Bloomberg with the deal. It's embarrassing.
    Tony Blair has spent ten years arguing that Iraq wasn't a mistake. I expect he believes that too.
    So Cameron is as mad as post-Iraq Blair. In which case Tories are quite right to eject him. And Cameron will suffer the same fate as Blair.
    It was Labour voters going to the LDs which did for Blair, it will be Tory voters going to UKIP which will do for Cameron
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,429
    Just watched Top Gear, my prediction, subscriptions to Amazon Prime TV are going to through the roof.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/ladpolitics/status/737013654042873857
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736916673056362497
    https://twitter.com/Gnorrn/status/736931884299476992
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736939020924641281
    Well, his last wheeze of pairing his vote in Twickenham, worked brilliantly, didn't it.

    What was the phrase by Private Frazer?
    Lol did Mike not vote for the Libdems in Twickenham? I think people underestimate the Tory party they are one of the most successful parties in the democratic world along with the Liberal party of Japan. Lol.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Seant

    "PS if he really does believe he's got some major reform, then Cameron is not just a mendacious failure at EU politics, he's bonkers."

    Cameron knows how to shaft the right and isolate them to irrelevance just like Blair did to the left.
    He also knows people like you , have nowhere else to go at GE with FPTP.
    All talk and no follow through. You are the bonkers ones not him.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited May 2016
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JohnO said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sort of on topic, Mike's voting Leave in the EURef

    (I think to cause maximum damage to the Tories)

    Mike Smithson? Is that a joke?
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736916673056362497
    https://twitter.com/Gnorrn/status/736931884299476992
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/736939020924641281
    Well, his last wheeze of pairing his vote in Twickenham, worked brilliantly, didn't it.

    What was the phrase by Private Frazer?
    To be fair there have been lots of people on both sides saying they are voting a particular way for their children and grandchildren's sake. In this case we happen to know that Smithson Junior is a Leave fan so maybe OGH is just going to vote Leave for Robert's sake.
    I suspect he's just taking the piss....Mike has an 'singular' sense of humour.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited May 2016
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/ladpolitics/status/737013654042873857

    I wouldn't take that bet, because it would require the BBC to admit they have f##ked up.

    I am expecting to see a report on the BBC tomorrow saying that the new Top Gear was watched by a record number of people...

    LOL I spoke too soon... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36409943

    This is the one comment they point to...50k+ tweets of which 99% are negative and the BBC quote the Guardian journo.

    The Guardian's Stuart Heritage commented on the similarities during a film profiling the new Dodge Viper ACR saying: "It's well shot. It's got the same unearned swagger. It's presented by a man in a car comparing stuff to stuff, then leaving a pause, then accelerating, then shouting. It is identical."
This discussion has been closed.