On topic, Corbyn should have got ahead of this and gone the full Sister Souljah on Ken. But since he didn't, I don't really see what Labour gain by pissing off the left as well as everybody else.
Has Nick 'Momentum' Palmer commented since this has blown up?
He's been conspicuous by his absence. What I don't understand about the Naz Shah case is, why was she even selected in the first place? Did they not do their due diligence on her? Or did they know full well what she believed in and thought "that's what we need to beat George Galloway?"
I'm not sure that political parties have the resource to trawl through every candidate's social media history. Black marks are more often flagged up to the parties rather than uncovered by them.
Bollocks...it is totally standard now for companies to do so when you apply for a job. Sure something could be hidden etc, but most of the stuff like Khan speech writer and Shah weren't posts on some obscure forum under an anonymous handle which is later revealed to be them (e.g. Louise Mensch), it was on their personal twitter and facebook accounts.
Well quite.
Says the lady with nearly 10,000 pbc posts and more than 100k tweets to her name. If you stood for parliament, would you expect someone to trawl through them all?
You realise that the task can be [semi] automated right.
Bordering on saying the line "you are no Conservative Mr Cameron".
"The suspicion thus arises that Mr Cameron has done favours for the unions in exchange for their support for his Remain campaign, which badly needs Left-wing support. Mr Cameron’s willingness to misuse Government resources and traduce his own colleagues in pursuit of a referendum victory is increasingly apparent, but this is worse still. He risks looking like a man so hell-bent on referendum victory that he is forgetting the party he leads and what it stands for. You are a Conservative, Prime Minister. Voters expect you to act like one. "
Livingstone blew his own head off. But the hysteria about anti-semitismand the CRISIS and what will Corbyn do to remove these disgusting left wing dinosaurs - that's all from the Bitterite wing of the party. Remember that not only did they need Labour to be trounced next week they also feel uncomfortable with the Hillsborough inquest triumph as Blair was a leading player in keeping it surpressed.
The Crisis developed because of the amateurish handling. If Corbyn had sacked, not suspended, not thought about, not argued the toss with Milne about, but straight up SACKED Ken the second he stood up in the TV studio, and then publically, unequivocally and clearly distanced himself from his comments, it would have had a tenth of the impact it did.
The damage was done by the weaseling around trying not to suspend him, and still is being done by trying not to sack him, it gives the perception that Corbyn is sympathetic to what he said, if he isn't, he should have said so clearly and distinctly, with no soft soap.
A Labour leader does not have the powers to sack even a mosquito. He is a servant of the Party and it should be as such.
He might regard much of his front bench as mosquitos but he certainly has the power to sack (or swat) them.
He cannot sack them from the Party. He should sack them from the shadow cabinet.
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
Is it REMAIN running this or the Govt of Cameron and Osborne? We see very little from the REMAIN HQ folk, it is largely/wholly Govt driven.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
Naz Shah's "apology" is a fine example of Taqiyah as are Khan's attempt to distance himself from Ken. The idea that Khan will be a unifying person in London is complete bullshit taken from the Labour propaganda sheet, Don. He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Pull the other one and lets hear from Henry G Manson for a real insight into Labour, not this propaganda.
Your anti-Muslim sentiment knows no bounds. In what respect has Sadiq Khan done something wrong ?
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Again, why the hell doesn't Jezza realise that getting in a temper tandrum over the press looks terrible. All he had to do was give a 30s soundbite to camera saying something about he takes these issues very seriously and have to be dealt with, instead we have the old fool stuck trying to run away but baffled by the door.
Has anyone heard from Reek lately, what are his thoughts on all of this, I don't remember seeing anything from him condemning Ken or Naz yesterday. Maybe he has fully transformed now.
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
If 45 to 50% of 2015 Tories vote Remain that could be around half the Remain total though most turnout figures show 65 to 70% 9 or 10 certain to vote
And, incredibly, they seem determined to have this massive internal squabble over which of Hitler's early policies Labour supports, in full view of the public, on social media
Yes, if only Hitler has stuck to what he wrote in Mein Kampf, there'd apparently have been no problem.
Back when he was perfectly sane, rational and reasonable... Before the "madness" set in...
Amazingly enough its possible for all of the theories - conspiracy and cockup - to be correct. We know that the Bitterati /Progress are planning a putsch against Corbyn after the local elections and that they appeared to be anstier than ever when the polls swung and it started look like the disaster they predicted wasn't coming. We also know that Momentum see plots from the right in everything and anything (whilst they form their party within a party and plot against the right).
So yes, I think it is fair comment that the CRISIS!!! is being whipped up by the right to undermine Corbyn. Its also correct that Ken is a self-aggrandising idiot who thinks quoting Hitler is a Good Thing. So has Ken blown his own head off? Yes. Has he done so in response to anti-Corbyn hysteria? Yes.
And as others have said, lets take accusations of prejudice from Tories under advisement. Its not that long ago that Boris was making anti-African assertions against Obama.
It argues that there was some support for the activities of German Zionist Jews within Nazi circles, but this took the form of a definite policy in 1935 (page 192-194) [and not 1932], when Heydrich of the SS published "The Visible Enemy". The only point was that Zionist groups in Germany might encourage more emigration of jews from Germany (and the SS were worried that rates of emigration were starting to drop as the Germany economy picked up). Note though that this was a SS policy, and not necessarily the view of the whole regime or indeed Hitler himself.
You can read it on Google Books.
Even the book Ken is pleading in his defence does not support his 'Hitler was a Zionist' theory.....some Nazis saw Zionists as 'useful idiots' in helping getting round trade bans, and seeing themselves as 'Jews' rather than 'Germans' - unlike the vast majority of German Jews - but Hitler's views on Jews was well established....
I see. It is OK if it was only a SS policy. That does not mean the Nazis. Something was indeed fishy...
Do you not understand the first rule of politics, that when you are defending your party and excusing your MPs by saying Hitler wasn't so bad, or Hitler actually meant that, not this, or actually Hitler changed his mind later, then it really doesn't matter what a single fucking thing you are actually saying, thinking or explaining, all the public will see is a supposedly mainstream political party wheeling out ADOLF HITLER as a debating point, time and again, like the worst nutters of the BNP or Combat 88.
You won't get a hearing, you will get people running away in horror.
I have defended no one in the Labour Party. I have condemned Naz and I support Livingstone's suspension. Go and find your Thai comfort !
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
The problem is - 99% of the people who criticise Israel do NOT criticise the Palestinians. That is 'anti-semitic', 'hypocritic' or whatever. With such reporting bias it is not surprising that the word is now used for any criticism of Israel.
Naz Shah's "apology" is a fine example of Taqiyah as are Khan's attempt to distance himself from Ken. The idea that Khan will be a unifying person in London is complete bullshit taken from the Labour propaganda sheet, Don. He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Pull the other one and lets hear from Henry G Manson for a real insight into Labour, not this propaganda.
Your anti-Muslim sentiment knows no bounds. In what respect has Sadiq Khan done something wrong ?
Hire people from the Lutfur Rahman campaign, hired a person who said the murder of Lee Rigby was an MI5 conspiracy, tried to get a now convicted terrorist supporter off the hook, previously supported Ken when he was under investigation for antisemitism while Mayor, associated himself with an Imam who calls for a boycott of Ahmadi businesses and shops. Policy wise the idea of an ethnic quota is disturbing.
Your and your party's pursuit of Muslim votes is turning Labour into the new nasty party. Maybe the demographics are going to change in the next 10 years and Labour will be swept to power with 4-6m Muslim votes in addition to those that they hold on to from the current support, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth it.
The editor of the Jewish Chronicle appeared on a phone-in this morning and was asked if criticism of Israel was anti semitic. He said it wasn't. He was then asked if suggesting that the State of Israel had no legitimacy was anti Semitic and he said that wasn't either-many learned Rabbis held that view. He was then asked if that was the case 'what was the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism'? He replied 'it was when criticism of Israel moved onto Jewish world domination which it usually does'.
The left has always been against racism and prejudice. This is what attracted many of us to left wing politics in the first place. Usually South Africa and apartheid which led on to the ANL and so on. At any fascist or National front demonstration it was always the left who turned out to confront them. Racism homophobia and all other prejudices against minorities have always been faced down by the left.
By contrast the right has by definition been the home of the homophobic and the racist. Read Guido or the Daily Mail and it spews from every orifice. Littlejohn claimed he was the first one to draw anyone's attention to Labour's anti Semitism. The hater of all haters Richard Littlejohn. If that wasn't bizarre enough apparently the real credit belonged to Guido!
Can these people and their fellow travellers really judge anti Semitism or any other racism in the Labour Party? What do they know about anti Semitism? We've all heard people use the word 'Paki' and seen the endemic racism which poses as 'anti-Islamsism' You don't have to leave this site. Who apart from the very youngest hasn't heard someone tell an Asian 'To go home'. Has anyone heard of a Jew being told to go home or that they're after world domination?
So what's it all about? Everyone knows a Jew. Most probably don't even know they're Jews. They look like everyone else they're well integrated and often professional. More often than not reasonably well off so no petty crime to worry about so what's not to feel comfortable with?
And that's really it. It's a free hit. Virtue signalling at it's worst. The first time the 'right' could pretend to be on the right side of racism. How grotesque
Very well said Roger. There is a hysterical rightwing bandwagon rolling here. It is sickeningly hypocritical. Particularly as some participants are fiercely anti-muslim.
Having said that, I'd like to see Livingstone permanently out of the Labour party. He has become a liability.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
The problem is - 99% of the people who criticise Israel do NOT criticise the Palestinians. That is 'anti-semitic', 'hypocritic' or whatever. With such reporting bias it is not surprising that the word is now used for any criticism of Israel.
I repeat what I wrote yesterday. The Palestinians did not kill 6 million Jews. Europeans did. The Palestinians were driven out of their homes and their land and are still living in occupation under International law.
The editor of the Jewish Chronicle appeared on a phone-in this morning and was asked if criticism of Israel was anti semitic. He said it wasn't. He was then asked if suggesting that the State of Israel had no legitimacy was anti Semitic and he said that wasn't either-many learned Rabbis held that view. He was then asked if that was the case 'what was the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism'? He replied 'it was when criticism of Israel moved onto Jewish world domination which it usually does'.
Can these people and their fellow travellers really judge anti Semitism or any other racism in the Labour Party? What do they know about anti Semitism? We've all heard people use the word 'Paki' and seen the endemic racism which poses as 'anti-Islamsism' You don't have to leave this site. Who apart from the very youngest hasn't heard someone tell an Asian 'To go home'. Has anyone heard of a Jew being told to go home or that they're after world domination?
So what's it all about? Everyone knows a Jew. Most probably don't even know they're Jews. They look like everyone else they're well integrated and often professional. More often than not reasonably well off so no petty crime to worry about so what's not to feel comfortable with?
And that's really it. It's a free hit. Virtue signalling at it's worst. The first time the 'right' could pretend to be on the right side of racism. How sad
Roger, I'm sure you meant well, but this is just bonkers. For a start you claim there is no anti-Semitism in the UK? Really??
The rest of your prolix nonsense can thus be ignored.
I didn't say that. I was saying this spat is confected. I don't believe a word of that article. I know the area well I have family in Rusholme. It's very popular with Jews on Saturday night and unless this person was behaving in a very anti social way he could have walked around there all night dressed in anything he wanted and no one would have raised an eyebrow. There are about 100 Asian restaurants in a line. It's just Daily Mail crap
The editor of the Jewish Chronicle appeared on a phone-in this morning and was asked if criticism of Israel was anti semitic. He said it wasn't. He was then asked if suggesting that the State of Israel had no legitimacy was anti Semitic and he said that wasn't either-many learned Rabbis held that view. He was then asked if that was the case 'what was the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism'? He replied 'it was when criticism of Israel moved onto Jewish world domination which it usually does'.
Can these people and their fellow travellers really judge anti Semitism or any other racism in the Labour Party? What do they know about anti Semitism? We've all heard people use the word 'Paki' and seen the endemic racism which poses as 'anti-Islamsism' You don't have to leave this site. Who apart from the very youngest hasn't heard someone tell an Asian 'To go home'. Has anyone heard of a Jew being told to go home or that they're after world domination?
So what's it all about? Everyone knows a Jew. Most probably don't even know they're Jews. They look like everyone else they're well integrated and often professional. More often than not reasonably well off so no petty crime to worry about so what's not to feel comfortable with?
And that's really it. It's a free hit. Virtue signalling at it's worst. The first time the 'right' could pretend to be on the right side of racism. How sad
Roger, I'm sure you meant well, but this is just bonkers. For a start you claim there is no anti-Semitism in the UK? Really??
The rest of your prolix nonsense can thus be ignored.
I didn't say that. I was saying this spat is confecteted. I don't believe a word of that article. I know the area well I have family in Rusholme. It's very popular with Jews on Saturday night and unless this person was behaving in a very anti social way he could have walked around there all night dressed in anything he wanted and no one would have raised an eyebrow. There are about 100 Asian restaurants in a line. It's just Daily Mail crap
I think you have just, er confecteted "confecteted"....
Has Nick 'Momentum' Palmer commented since this has blown up?
He's been conspicuous by his absence. What I don't understand about the Naz Shah case is, why was she even selected in the first place? Did they not do their due diligence on her? Or did they know full well what she believed in and thought "that's what we need to beat George Galloway?"
I'm not sure that political parties have the resource to trawl through every candidate's social media history. Black marks are more often flagged up to the parties rather than uncovered by them.
Bollocks...it is totally standard now for companies to do so when you apply for a job. Sure something could be hidden etc, but most of the stuff like Khan speech writer and Shah weren't posts on some obscure forum under an anonymous handle which is later revealed to be them (e.g. Louise Mensch), it was on their personal twitter and facebook accounts.
Well quite.
Says the lady with nearly 10,000 pbc posts and more than 100k tweets to her name. If you stood for parliament, would you expect someone to trawl through them all?
The editor of the Jewish Chronicle appeared on a phone-in this morning and was asked if criticism of Israel was anti semitic. He said it wasn't. He was then asked if suggesting that the State of Israel had no legitimacy was anti Semitic and he said that wasn't either-many learned Rabbis held that view. He was then asked if that was the case 'what was the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism'? He replied 'it was when criticism of Israel moved onto Jewish world domination which it usually does'.
Can these people and their fellow travellers really judge anti Semitism or any other racism in the Labour Party? What do they know about anti Semitism? We've all heard people use the word 'Paki' and seen the endemic racism which poses as 'anti-Islamsism' You don't have to leave this site. Who apart from the very youngest hasn't heard someone tell an Asian 'To go home'. Has anyone heard of a Jew being told to go home or that they're after world domination?
So what's it all about? Everyone knows a Jew. Most probably don't even know they're Jews. They look like everyone else they're well integrated and often professional. More often than not reasonably well off so no petty crime to worry about so what's not to feel comfortable with?
And that's really it. It's a free hit. Virtue signalling at it's worst. The first time the 'right' could pretend to be on the right side of racism. How sad
Roger, I'm sure you meant well, but this is just bonkers. For a start you claim there is no anti-Semitism in the UK? Really??
The rest of your prolix nonsense can thus be ignored.
I didn't say that. I was saying this spat is confecteted. I don't believe a word of that article. I know the area well I have family in Rusholme. It's very popular with Jews on Saturday night and unless this person was behaving in a very anti social way he could have walked around there all night dressed in anything he wanted and no one would have raised an eyebrow. There are about 100 Asian restaurants in a line. It's just Daily Mail crap
I think you have just, er confecteted "confecteted"....
it's time Livingstone definitively retired from politics - he used to have considerable strengths and was in my opinion a goo Mayor, but he's drifted into a commentator lazily saying whatever comes into his head.
The problem is that this came into his head over 30 years ago.
How is this going down among your friends in the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats on the continent? What do the German or Danish media think about the state of the Labour Party?
Bordering on saying the line "you are no Conservative Mr Cameron".
"The suspicion thus arises that Mr Cameron has done favours for the unions in exchange for their support for his Remain campaign, which badly needs Left-wing support. Mr Cameron’s willingness to misuse Government resources and traduce his own colleagues in pursuit of a referendum victory is increasingly apparent, but this is worse still. He risks looking like a man so hell-bent on referendum victory that he is forgetting the party he leads and what it stands for. You are a Conservative, Prime Minister. Voters expect you to act like one. "
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
Is it REMAIN running this or the Govt of Cameron and Osborne? We see very little from the REMAIN HQ folk, it is largely/wholly Govt driven.
I haven't seen Rose since his gaffe-fest - who else is there bar Cameron/Osborne/Chuka?
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
Is it REMAIN running this or the Govt of Cameron and Osborne? We see very little from the REMAIN HQ folk, it is largely/wholly Govt driven.
The problem they will have with this is at the end of May the Government will go into purdah for the last month of the campaign.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
TBH, the moment someone uses the word Zionist - I ignore them. Talk about disagreements with the Israeli government all you want, I'll pay attention.
The editor of the Jewish Chronicle appeared on a phone-in this morning and was asked if criticism of Israel was anti semitic. He said it wasn't. He was then asked if suggesting that the State of Israel had no legitimacy was anti Semitic and he said that wasn't either-many learned Rabbis held that view. He was then asked if that was the case 'what was the connection between anti Zionism and anti Semitism'? He replied 'it was when criticism of Israel moved onto Jewish world domination which it usually does'.
Can these people and their fellow travellers really judge anti Semitism or any other racism in the Labour Party? What do they know about anti Semitism? We've all heard people use the word 'Paki' and seen the endemic racism which poses as 'anti-Islamsism' You don't have to leave this site. Who apart from the very youngest hasn't heard someone tell an Asian 'To go home'. Has anyone heard of a Jew being told to go home or that they're after world domination?
So what's it all about? Everyone knows a Jew. Most probably don't even know they're Jews. They look like everyone else they're well integrated and often professional. More often than not reasonably well off so no petty crime to worry about so what's not to feel comfortable with?
And that's really it. It's a free hit. Virtue signalling at it's worst. The first time the 'right' could pretend to be on the right side of racism. How sad
Roger, I'm sure you meant well, but this is just bonkers. For a start you claim there is no anti-Semitism in the UK? Really??
The rest of your prolix nonsense can thus be ignored.
I didn't say that. I was saying this spat is confecteted. I don't believe a word of that article. I know the area well I have family in Rusholme. It's very popular with Jews on Saturday night and unless this person was behaving in a very anti social way he could have walked around there all night dressed in anything he wanted and no one would have raised an eyebrow. There are about 100 Asian restaurants in a line. It's just Daily Mail crap
I think you have just, er confecteted "confecteted"....
Thanks!
For a moment there I feared you might be channeling George W Bush.....
Good question from Andrew Neil on daily politics to former US ambassador to NATO 'If we were to go to the back of the queue on a trade deal, who is ahead of us?' 'That's a good question! And it wouldn't stay there very long' Neil 'there is no queue!' How does Remain respond to this?
Mr Volker was well informed and spoke about the need for us be in the EU to work for American interests but pointed out that the USA may have to discriminate between "safe countries like us and other EU countries. Europe cannot be treated a sone block for security..
You usually find that the long term impact of a story is in inverse relationship to the amount of hyperactive comments raised on here and I expect this is no different .
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
Is it REMAIN running this or the Govt of Cameron and Osborne? We see very little from the REMAIN HQ folk, it is largely/wholly Govt driven.
The problem they will have with this is at the end of May the Government will go into purdah for the last month of the campaign.
Shush... that is a great point and the REMAIN team have not had much to do up until then.... I think it starts in 3 weeks.
Just as I thought Ken Livingstone was the sole Westminster Village Idiot, up pops John Major. /twitter.com/politicshome/status/726000556377034752
The perks of not needing to get elected any more, you can insult half the electorate and not care.
It's another WTF comment - seriously, what are these Tories thinking? Trying to burn their own Party down? One can disagree without resorting to this level of stupidity.
They think that half the REMAIN voters are going to come from the Conservatives. Oh dear. Something that is probably a mathematical impossibility unless turnout is under 50% and REMAIN will be f***d if that happens by the kipper wedge.
Remain do seem to be getting more and more rattled --> incoherent the longer the polls stay deadlocked. Final couple of weeks of June should be fun!
Is it REMAIN running this or the Govt of Cameron and Osborne? We see very little from the REMAIN HQ folk, it is largely/wholly Govt driven.
I haven't seen Rose since his gaffe-fest - who else is there bar Cameron/Osborne/Chuka?
There is the REMAIN strategy head Ryan, the same chap from South Africa who headed up the Lib Dem 2015 GE campaign. Ok now stop laughing, that is unkind.
The left has always been against racism and prejudice.
People on the left are just prejudiced as those on the right, it's just the targets are different. Look at the way the left goes on about "toffs", for example, at the Crewe by-election. From Wikipedia:
"The Labour Party ran a personal class-based campaign against the Conservative candidate, calling him "the Tarporley Toff", "Lord Snooty", "Tory Boy Timpson".[20] Labour supporters donned top hats to mock Timpson, whose family own Timpson, a national shoe repair and key-cutting business.[21] This has been viewed by some social commentators as a form of reverse snobbery. Dunwoody, who arrived for the campaign from her 6-acre (24,000 m2) holding in Wales, was termed "One of us",[22] as she was daughter of the deceased Labour MP. The campaign was criticised by a number of national newspapers, including the left-leaning Guardian[23] as well as The Times,[24] while Dunwoody herself was confronted by Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight over the fact that she has an entry in Burke's Peerage and Baronetage.[25]"
I'm having some non-political problems at the moment, so haven't had much time to comment this week, but I agree with Don, and I also agree with Lansman that it's time Livingstone definitively retired from politics - he used to have considerable strengths and was in my opinion a goo Mayor, but he's drifted into a commentator lazily saying whatever comes into his head.
it's time Livingstone definitively retired from politics - he used to have considerable strengths and was in my opinion a goo Mayor, but he's drifted into a commentator lazily saying whatever comes into his head.
The problem is that this came into his head over 30 years ago.
How is this going down among your friends in the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats on the continent? What do the German or Danish media think about the state of the Labour Party?
Mann chased Livingstone — who by the way sits on the Labour National Executive Committee, which is like the DNC or RNC in the U.S. — all the way into a TV studio, telling him to “go back and check what Hitler did! Go back and check what Hitler did!”
Yesterday's thread contained some heated and ill-considered wording on the issues of Palestinians and antisemitism. Like you, I feel strongly for the Palestinians as a people - their living at an unfortunate time in history for them, and having routinely appalling leadership since the creation of Israel. I also have much sympathy for the Jewish communities which suffered centuries of pogroms and discrimination even before the holocaust.
It has to be possible to criticize both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leadership - either separately or jointly - without implying you are an anti-Semite or islamophobic. It has, also, to be possible to say that, where the power of the ballot box is denied to an entire people and oppression occurs, armed rebellion may be justified, without being labelled a terrorist-lover. Similarly, one has to be able to talk to your enemies without being labelled their friend. In the course of my career, I have had to talk to senior members of the Palestinian Liberation Army and Hizbollah at times when both were labelled terrorist organizations. I have also had many meetings with very senior officials of Saddam's regime. None of that makes me a terrorist, but some of it may have given me useful insights on the way forward.
Of course, many of those making the most heated and somewhat ill-worded accusations also know this, but cannot resist the opportunity to score political points. This always depresses me, as it devalues politics in general and the individuals involved, while also diminishing the prospects of much-needed radical and pragmatic debate on how we are going to tackle the truly wicked problems underlying the issues.
kle4 said: I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
You usually find that the long term impact of a story is in inverse relationship to the amount of hyperactive comments raised on here and I expect this is no different .
The World at One @BBCWorldatOne Austrian ambassador on border controls with Italy: "we are ready to establish security measures if need be" to manage "massive influx" #wato
Yesterday's thread contained some heated and ill-considered wording on the issues of Palestinians and antisemitism. Like you, I feel strongly for the Palestinians as a people - their living at an unfortunate time in history for them, and having routinely appalling leadership since the creation of Israel. I also have much sympathy for the Jewish communities which suffered centuries of pogroms and discrimination even before the holocaust.
It has to be possible to criticize both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leadership - either separately or jointly - without implying you are an anti-Semite or islamophobic. It has, also, to be possible to say that, where the power of the ballot box is denied to an entire people and oppression occurs, armed rebellion may be justified, without being labelled a terrorist-lover.
Of course, many of those making the most heated and somewhat ill-worded accusations also know this, but cannot resist the opportunity to score political points. This always depresses me, as it devalues politics in general and the individuals involved, while also diminishing the prospects of much-needed radical and pragmatic debate on how we are going to tackle the truly wicked problems underlying the issues.
I've never ever heard a phone-in about this subject that isn't a shout-fest. I switch off.
"Evening Standard reports that the book Ken Livingstone may be referring to - in his defence - is writings by the American Marxist historian Lenni Brenner, who wrote the 2002 book 51 DOCUMENTS: ZIONIST COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS"
Ken Livingstone has told Sky News he would tell the Labour inquiry that he has been making the connection between Adolf Hitler and Zionism for 30 years, since he first read a book on the link.
Bordering on saying the line "you are no Conservative Mr Cameron".
"The suspicion thus arises that Mr Cameron has done favours for the unions in exchange for their support for his Remain campaign, which badly needs Left-wing support. Mr Cameron’s willingness to misuse Government resources and traduce his own colleagues in pursuit of a referendum victory is increasingly apparent, but this is worse still. He risks looking like a man so hell-bent on referendum victory that he is forgetting the party he leads and what it stands for. You are a Conservative, Prime Minister. Voters expect you to act like one. "
No, Cameron has inadvertently helped the Leave campaign by backing down trade union legislation, because his actions will potentially help Leave mount a stronger appeal to those on the left.
The questionable and certainly exaggerated argument being put by the Labour IN campaign is that leaving the EU will expose the UK to the full force of a Conservative government, with one example being the consequences of the loss of provisions of the EU guaranteeing rights of unions. Yet if this Government can't even get through legislation on the relatively minor issue of preventing unions from collecting their fees at source through parliament, it hardly suggests that this Government would be able to go far further in the absence of EU legislation, as the Labour IN campaign suggests would happen.
''It has to be possible to criticize both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leadership - either separately or jointly - without implying you are an anti-Semite or islamophobic.''
I don;t think anybody did dispute that, does dispute that or will ever dispute that. This is a straw man.
This isn't about wanting to criticize the Israeli government. Its about wanting to traffic Israelis forcibly out of their country and wipe it off the map.
Yesterday's thread contained some heated and ill-considered wording on the issues of Palestinians and antisemitism. Like you, I feel strongly for the Palestinians as a people - their living at an unfortunate time in history for them, and having routinely appalling leadership since the creation of Israel. I also have much sympathy for the Jewish communities which suffered centuries of pogroms and discrimination even before the holocaust.
It has to be possible to criticize both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leadership - either separately or jointly - without implying you are an anti-Semite or islamophobic. It has, also, to be possible to say that, where the power of the ballot box is denied to an entire people and oppression occurs, armed rebellion may be justified, without being labelled a terrorist-lover. Similarly, one has to be able to talk to your enemies without being labelled their friend. In the course of my career, I have had to talk to senior members of the Palestinian Liberation Army and Hizbollah at times when both were labelled terrorist organizations. I have also had many meetings with very senior officials of Saddam's regime. None of that makes me a terrorist, but some of it may have given me useful insights on the way forward.
Of course, many of those making the most heated and somewhat ill-worded accusations also know this, but cannot resist the opportunity to score political points. This always depresses me, as it devalues politics in general and the individuals involved, while also diminishing the prospects of much-needed radical and pragmatic debate on how we are going to tackle the truly wicked problems underlying the issues.
I completely agree with that. That said, I don't think there's a time in the last couple of decades where Ken could have outlined his unusual thesis without placing himself outside acceptable debate - but the consequent witchhunt for anyone who might have expressed a view that some of his statements contained historically accurate elements wouldn't have got off the ground in a more sensible climate.
[edit: do witchhunts get off the ground in any case?]
I always thought it was a shame all those people that lost their houses in 1992 as a direct result of Major's ERM madness didn't sue him and the Tory Party... Maybe it's not too late?
I remember Ken Clark going cap in hand to the Bundesbank, pleading with them to cut interest rates.
Following on from the queue question, this is another angle
Kurt Volker also pointed out that having free movement in EU is causing the U.S. to rethink immigration from UK as so many Arab, afghani and Syrians now have EU passports...
It argues that there was some support for the activities of German Zionist Jews within Nazi circles, but this took the form of a definite policy in 1935 (page 192-194) [and not 1932], when Heydrich of the SS published "The Visible Enemy". The only point was that Zionist groups in Germany might encourage more emigration of jews from Germany (and the SS were worried that rates of emigration were starting to drop as the Germany economy picked up). Note though that this was a SS policy, and not necessarily the view of the whole regime or indeed Hitler himself.
You can read it on Google Books.
Even the book Ken is pleading in his defence does not support his 'Hitler was a Zionist' theory.....some Nazis saw Zionists as 'useful idiots' in helping getting round trade bans, and seeing themselves as 'Jews' rather than 'Germans' - unlike the vast majority of German Jews - but Hitler's views on Jews was well established....
I see. It is OK if it was only a SS policy. That does not mean the Nazis. Something was indeed fishy...
Do you not understand the first rule of politics, that when you are defending your party and excusing your MPs by saying Hitler wasn't so bad, or Hitler actually meant that, not this, or actually Hitler changed his mind later, then it really doesn't matter what a single fucking thing you are actually saying, thinking or explaining, all the public will see is a supposedly mainstream political party wheeling out ADOLF HITLER as a debating point, time and again, like the worst nutters of the BNP or Combat 88.
You won't get a hearing, you will get people running away in horror.
As Clegg pointed out to Ken on live TV, "you are not an academic historian, your a politician."
"Evening Standard reports that the book Ken Livingstone may be referring to - in his defence - is writings by the American Marxist historian Lenni Brenner, who wrote the 2002 book 51 DOCUMENTS: ZIONIST COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS"
Ken Livingstone has told Sky News he would tell the Labour inquiry that he has been making the connection between Adolf Hitler and Zionism for 30 years, since he first read a book on the link.
...and so he digs on. I believe Hitler liked dogs. That doesn't mean dog lovers supported Nazism.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
I Didn't Say people Would Not Be Accused, I agree they probably will. They could easily dismiss it however with justification. Ken's comments cross a line where he cannot credibly do that
Migrant smugglers are quick to change routes in response to political policy shifts. Should the traffic get backed up in one area, as in Greece at the moment, other routes are promoted over social media channels. Recently, that has included the Mediterranean crossing from Libya or Egypt to the Italian island of Lampedusa.
Intelligence agencies are warning that hundreds of thousands of people are now waiting in North Africa for their chance to flee across the sea. Particularly from Libya, the dream of Europe looks closer than ever before: The often inadequately equipped boats put to sea by the migrant smugglers must only leave Libyan territorial waters 12 nautical miles from shore before sending out a distress call. Ships patrolling the waters of the southern Mediterranean as part of the EU operation Sophia must then collect them in accordance with international maritime law. Since September, some 13,000 migrants have been brought to EU territory as a result of this tactic.
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
A tip for those concerned about the problem of legitimate criticism of the Israeli government being conflated with anti-Semitism: if you want to avoid this problem, then a good rule of thumb is that it is best to avoid citing Hitler in support of your argument.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
I Didn't Say people Would Not Be Accused, I agree they probably will. They could easily dismiss it however with justification. Ken's comments cross a line where he cannot credibly do that
I have discussed Israel before, many times. It has never been difficult to tell those who are merely critics of Israel from those who use the term "anti-Zionist" as a fig leaf for their anti-Semitism. The distinction on paper is nothing like the distinction in reality.
Following on from the queue question, this is another angle
Kurt Volker also pointed out that having free movement in EU is causing the U.S. to rethink immigration from UK as so many Arab, afghani and Syrians now have EU passports...
Just crunching the data, it looks like Germany accounted for around half of all EMU growth for the quarter in absolute terms. while it is proportionally 29% of the EMU economy. Germany is still hollowing out its neighbours. The monetary policy is going to overheat the German economy like it did with Ireland in 2003-2008.
Following on from the queue question, this is another angle
Kurt Volker also pointed out that having free movement in EU is causing the U.S. to rethink immigration from UK as so many Arab, afghani and Syrians now have EU passports...
The US is currently about to loosen restrictions on EU citizens visiting the US as part of TTIP, so I'm not sure what he's on about.
A tip for those concerned about the problem of legitimate criticism of the Israeli government being conflated with anti-Semitism: if you want to avoid this problem, then a good rule of thumb is that it is best to avoid citing Hitler in support of your argument.
Indeed - The word "Netanyahu" is probably a better place to start.
A tip for those concerned about the problem of legitimate criticism of the Israeli government being conflated with anti-Semitism: if you want to avoid this problem, then a good rule of thumb is that it is best to avoid citing Hitler in support of your argument.
Just crunching the data, it looks like Germany accounted for around half of all EMU growth for the quarter in absolute terms. while it is proportionally 29% of the EMU economy. Germany is still hollowing out its neighbours. The monetary policy is going to overheat the German economy like it did with Ireland in 2003-2008.
I think that is a very real risk. Although it would have the - inadvertent and ultimately rather painful - effect of recalibrating the competitiveness of the periphery through German inflation.
Migrant smugglers are quick to change routes in response to political policy shifts. Should the traffic get backed up in one area, as in Greece at the moment, other routes are promoted over social media channels. Recently, that has included the Mediterranean crossing from Libya or Egypt to the Italian island of Lampedusa.
Intelligence agencies are warning that hundreds of thousands of people are now waiting in North Africa for their chance to flee across the sea. Particularly from Libya, the dream of Europe looks closer than ever before: The often inadequately equipped boats put to sea by the migrant smugglers must only leave Libyan territorial waters 12 nautical miles from shore before sending out a distress call. Ships patrolling the waters of the southern Mediterranean as part of the EU operation Sophia must then collect them in accordance with international maritime law. Since September, some 13,000 migrants have been brought to EU territory as a result of this tactic.
Lampedusa must rival Alcatraz as a natural prison, though.
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
Migrant smugglers are quick to change routes in response to political policy shifts. Should the traffic get backed up in one area, as in Greece at the moment, other routes are promoted over social media channels. Recently, that has included the Mediterranean crossing from Libya or Egypt to the Italian island of Lampedusa.
Intelligence agencies are warning that hundreds of thousands of people are now waiting in North Africa for their chance to flee across the sea. Particularly from Libya, the dream of Europe looks closer than ever before: The often inadequately equipped boats put to sea by the migrant smugglers must only leave Libyan territorial waters 12 nautical miles from shore before sending out a distress call. Ships patrolling the waters of the southern Mediterranean as part of the EU operation Sophia must then collect them in accordance with international maritime law. Since September, some 13,000 migrants have been brought to EU territory as a result of this tactic.
And we had useful idiots on Question Time last night who laughed at the idea that many people in Africa have mobile phones.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
It is not possible to be critical of Israel and not be targeted as anti-Semitic. The bully boys will be out in force in no time.
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
I Didn't Say people Would Not Be Accused, I agree they probably will. They could easily dismiss it however with justification. Ken's comments cross a line where he cannot credibly do that
I have discussed Israel before, many times. It has never been difficult to tell those who are merely critics of Israel from those who use the term "anti-Zionist" as a fig leaf for their anti-Semitism. The distinction on paper is nothing like the distinction in reality.
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
Kahn is going to walk this, sadly.
Hopefully we can convince Brady to run next time. She's too good for the spammers.
Just crunching the data, it looks like Germany accounted for around half of all EMU growth for the quarter in absolute terms. while it is proportionally 29% of the EMU economy. Germany is still hollowing out its neighbours. The monetary policy is going to overheat the German economy like it did with Ireland in 2003-2008.
I think that is a very real risk. Although it would have the - inadvertent and ultimately rather painful - effect of recalibrating the competitiveness of the periphery through German inflation.
Before we get too carried away by one quarter's numbers, these were based on only 2 months' data and I suspect may look less impressive when March figures are added. Moreover, there are good reasons for thinking one-off factors pushed activity into Q1 and out of Q2, so...
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
Following on from the queue question, this is another angle
Kurt Volker also pointed out that having free movement in EU is causing the U.S. to rethink immigration from UK as so many Arab, afghani and Syrians now have EU passports...
The US is currently about to loosen restrictions on EU citizens visiting the US as part of TTIP, so I'm not sure what he's on about.
I didn't hear the interview, but Plato's summary of what he said makes zero sense. For one thing, the biggest problem with Islamic terrorrism in the UK has almost nothing to do with EU passports; it's home-grown and has Pakistani roots in most cases. For another thing, what have passports issued by other EU countries got to do with immigration or visits to the US by UK citizens?
He wants to impose racial quotas in the workplace, in what way is that a unifying policy.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
The shocking bit is how badly the Tories have played the Mayoral election. Kahn - given his links to extremists, and the calamity that is the Corbyn led labour party - should have been eminently beatable. But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.) Kahn is going to walk this, sadly.
It does not help when the party Leadership started the referendum up and then made that the priority.
Comments
"The suspicion thus arises that Mr Cameron has done favours for the unions in exchange for their support for his Remain campaign, which badly needs Left-wing support.
Mr Cameron’s willingness to misuse Government resources and traduce his own colleagues in pursuit of a referendum victory is increasingly apparent, but this is worse still.
He risks looking like a man so hell-bent on referendum victory that he is forgetting the party he leads and what it stands for. You are a Conservative, Prime Minister. Voters expect you to act like one. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/29/david-cameron-is-a-conservative-he-should-start-acting-like-one/
What crisis?
Roll on a month long GE campaign...they are going to need the Elvis impersonator on permanent retainer.
Can we really be assured Kahn will not use the mayoralty to stuff islamist bigots into positions of power?
Whose in charge?
Even the bloody expression has been hijacked.
Hello I'm from Sky News...Goodbye
Hello I'm from the Daily Mail..Goodbye
Hello I'm from the Telegraph...Goodbye
Hell I'm from CH4 News...Goodbye
Hello I'm from the BBC...I might talk to you if you are nice to me.
So yes, I think it is fair comment that the CRISIS!!! is being whipped up by the right to undermine Corbyn. Its also correct that Ken is a self-aggrandising idiot who thinks quoting Hitler is a Good Thing. So has Ken blown his own head off? Yes. Has he done so in response to anti-Corbyn hysteria? Yes.
And as others have said, lets take accusations of prejudice from Tories under advisement. Its not that long ago that Boris was making anti-African assertions against Obama.
'If we were to go to the back of the queue on a trade deal, who is ahead of us?'
'That's a good question! And it wouldn't stay there very long'
Neil 'there is no queue!'
How does Remain respond to this?
Your and your party's pursuit of Muslim votes is turning Labour into the new nasty party. Maybe the demographics are going to change in the next 10 years and Labour will be swept to power with 4-6m Muslim votes in addition to those that they hold on to from the current support, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth it.
Having said that, I'd like to see Livingstone permanently out of the Labour party. He has become a liability.
When did you last condemn Israel ?
OK, prove it...
How is this going down among your friends in the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats on the continent? What do the German or Danish media think about the state of the Labour Party?
WTF WTF WTF
Eurozone growth picks up to 0.6% in the first quarter.
"The Labour Party ran a personal class-based campaign against the Conservative candidate, calling him "the Tarporley Toff", "Lord Snooty", "Tory Boy Timpson".[20] Labour supporters donned top hats to mock Timpson, whose family own Timpson, a national shoe repair and key-cutting business.[21] This has been viewed by some social commentators as a form of reverse snobbery. Dunwoody, who arrived for the campaign from her 6-acre (24,000 m2) holding in Wales, was termed "One of us",[22] as she was daughter of the deceased Labour MP. The campaign was criticised by a number of national newspapers, including the left-leaning Guardian[23] as well as The Times,[24] while Dunwoody herself was confronted by Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight over the fact that she has an entry in Burke's Peerage and Baronetage.[25]"
Yesterday's thread contained some heated and ill-considered wording on the issues of Palestinians and antisemitism. Like you, I feel strongly for the Palestinians as a people - their living at an unfortunate time in history for them, and having routinely appalling leadership since the creation of Israel. I also have much sympathy for the Jewish communities which suffered centuries of pogroms and discrimination even before the holocaust.
It has to be possible to criticize both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leadership - either separately or jointly - without implying you are an anti-Semite or islamophobic. It has, also, to be possible to say that, where the power of the ballot box is denied to an entire people and oppression occurs, armed rebellion may be justified, without being labelled a terrorist-lover. Similarly, one has to be able to talk to your enemies without being labelled their friend. In the course of my career, I have had to talk to senior members of the Palestinian Liberation Army and Hizbollah at times when both were labelled terrorist organizations. I have also had many meetings with very senior officials of Saddam's regime. None of that makes me a terrorist, but some of it may have given me useful insights on the way forward.
Of course, many of those making the most heated and somewhat ill-worded accusations also know this, but cannot resist the opportunity to score political points. This always depresses me, as it devalues politics in general and the individuals involved, while also diminishing the prospects of much-needed radical and pragmatic debate on how we are going to tackle the truly wicked problems underlying the issues.
I think Don has the right of it. Ken, who I used to have time for, is a man child. Petty and irrational , but also with an older man's bitterness and bile. It is possible to be critical of the Israeli government without being anti semitic, so that if someone accuses you it is easy to dismiss. His words and some defenders do not support that.
I agree 100%
Austrian ambassador on border controls with Italy: "we are ready to establish security measures if need be" to manage "massive influx" #wato
Ken Livingstone has told Sky News he would tell the Labour inquiry that he has been making the connection between Adolf Hitler and Zionism for 30 years, since he first read a book on the link.
The questionable and certainly exaggerated argument being put by the Labour IN campaign is that leaving the EU will expose the UK to the full force of a Conservative government, with one example being the consequences of the loss of provisions of the EU guaranteeing rights of unions. Yet if this Government can't even get through legislation on the relatively minor issue of preventing unions from collecting their fees at source through parliament, it hardly suggests that this Government would be able to go far further in the absence of EU legislation, as the Labour IN campaign suggests would happen.
I don;t think anybody did dispute that, does dispute that or will ever dispute that. This is a straw man.
This isn't about wanting to criticize the Israeli government. Its about wanting to traffic Israelis forcibly out of their country and wipe it off the map.
[edit: do witchhunts get off the ground in any case?]
Kurt Volker also pointed out that having free movement in EU is causing the U.S. to rethink immigration from UK as so many Arab, afghani and Syrians now have EU passports...
Interesting graphic.
But the enthusiasm for Zac on the Right is utterly non-existent. ("Not good enough for a junior ministerial post, not good enough for London." to quote a card carrying friend of mine.)
Kahn is going to walk this, sadly.
Then by quoting the guy several pay grades above him....