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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2013 in General

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  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Ratty looks like a typical leftie ingrate to me.
  • AveryLP said:

    Ratty looks like a typical leftie ingrate to me.

    Well, he's certainly in the grate, Avery.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    We're paying housing benefit to rats? Surely even the last government could not be that ridiculous.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    More leftie rubbish.

    How are HMRC collecting this 'bedroom tax'?
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    edited April 2013
    As per the cartoon, the poll on BBC Scotlandshire about IDS asks if he is a RATbag, and astonishingly 2.6% think he is not, despite cutting taxes on squillionaires at the same time as hitting the disabled for 14 quid a week. Charming man.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Been watching The Blessed Margaret on the Parliament Channel.

    Would Cameron and Osborne have been "Wets?" in Maggie's day?
  • samsam Posts: 727
    tim said:

    IDS claims he can live on £53 per week, while claiming £42.50 for his breakfast

    https://twitter.com/A_Man_Named_Ed/status/318641457042968576/photo/1

    How do we know that he was staying in the hotel & eating breakfast alone?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    Would Cameron and Osborne have been "Wets?" in Maggie's day?

    What is certain is that they would have been sharing a dormitory with a number of other boys and not complaining about it nor demanding that the taxpayer provide them with a single bedroom.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    In principle the extra room charge seems perfectly reasonable to me. Why should the state pay not just for the accomodation that those who are not maintaining themselves need but also additional accomodation that they don't? Why should those who need larger accomodation, such as those with young children be denied the provision that the state has made for that purpose? It is perfectly logical that those in accomodation with surplus rooms should be incentivised to move to accomodation that better fits their needs.

    The problem is when this theory hits reality. In reality you have families who think their house is "theirs" because they have lived there many years. They have never actually paid for it, they don't even pay the rent, but it is "theirs" and it is a part of their identity with the neighbours etc.

    Secondly, more fundamentally, the theory imagines a perfect housing market, where appropriately sized accomodation is available. This may have some truth in major cities but will not in many areas.

    Thirdly, it assumes that the smaller accomodation is cheaper. This is not actually essential because a key part of the policy is releasing these family homes from empty nesters to those who need them but it is certainly a part of the rationale. The evidence for this is somewhat mixed.

    Fourthly, it is difficult not to conclude that it is an important part of the policy that many simply accept the deduction from benefit and therefore reduce the burden on the public purse. This is absolutely essential of course but this is quite a random and potentially unfair way of doing it. There must be better ways of cutting housing benefit than this.

    Finally, and least significantly, such a random policy allows a constant parade of hard luck stories about those with incapacity, fostering, broken families where both parents have residence, etc. etc. Our media lives off such stories so the policy inevitably takes place against a background of hostile stories retoxifying the tory brand.

    It would have been better to cut the proportion of rent paid for all housing benefit recipients than this. Simpler, cheaper, more easily justified. This is just too complicated for the gains. Poor politics I am afraid.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    How many spare bedrooms do HM Queen and Prince Phillip have at Buck House ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Perhaps if small families had not been encouraged to buy big council houses at subsidised rates this would not be the issue it is.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT
    Global warming flat-lined in 1998.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    Obviously most people don't know this because they haven't been told.

    However the people making decisions in places like China and India know hence why they're carrying on buildings lots of coal power plants.

    So not only is the climate change bill an economic suicide bill for this country the deliberate de-industrializing of Britain as a result and the offshoring of that industry to countries who don't believe in global warming will increase the amount of CO2 those industries produce.

    The only way of actually reducing emissions would be to keep the industry here and fund research into improving the technology used.

    So even from a Green point of view the climate change bill is nothing but self-harming behaviour to no purpose - which is what they want - a bit of self-punishment for those dark satanic mills.

    Either way it's still good the global warmers are now saying this country will be becoming colder because of global warming. Perhaps energy policy will start to reflect that then?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    I dunno, Mr. L., I live in a house with two more bedrooms than we actually need. That was our decision and we were happy to pay the additional price for the accommodation that we wanted. I am not sure why someone who is being provided with a home courtesy of the taxpayers shouldn't face the same idea of larger costs for larger accommodation as those who pay their own way.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A friend of mine had a Flemish giant that slept in a dog bed - but this Easter bunny make him look tiddly in comparison

    "A rabbit named Ralph has reclaimed his crown as the world's fattest Easter bunny after munching his way to almost FOUR stone in weight.

    Hungry Ralph, aged four, held the title in 2010 before being overtaken by fellow Continental Giant Darius, who ballooned to three-and-a-half stone.

    Owner Pauline Grant says Ralph, who is over three-foot long and weighs more than an average three-year-old child, now tips the scales at 3-st 8lbs.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2301884/Hopping-worlds-fattest-Easter-bunny-Hungry-rabbit-Ralph-weighs-3st-8lbs--thats-heavier-average-year-old-child.html#ixzz2PDo1shoO
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    @DavidL

    Poor politics I am afraid.

    David, you are beginning to sound like one on the Blessed Margaret's wets.

    The political principle upon which the removal of the spare room subsidy is built is intellectually solid, time honoured and of sound provenance. It is simply:

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

    Ralph Miliband will be turning in his grave at the heresy of his second son.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited April 2013
    tim, I have some further numbers for you.

    1993
    Unemployment: 10.2%
    Unemployment benefit: £2.5bn

    2012
    Unemployment: 7.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £5.3bn

    2017 forecast
    Unemployment: 6.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £4.5bn

    Evil Tories - everyone knows the early 1990s were some sort of Dickensian nightmare of workhouses and slums.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    @Tim

    Well, no doubt due to the fabulous health service the good news it that there are far fewer people with disabilities than we thought so that reduces the problem somewhat. It is also complete nonsense that there is any automatic correlation between disability and a need for an extra bedroom.

    But I think the gist of my earlier comments is that I for one am not convinced that this policy is going to work well in reality.

    So far as pensioners are concerned I can only refer to anecdotes but in my family's experience those that lived in public housing were in much smaller accomodation by the time they were pensioners. Certainly in Dundee they were moved into multi stories and sheltered accomodation that was an appropriate size. No doubt there are exceptions and areas where smaller accomodation was not so readily available.

    A global cut in the proportion of rent paid by HB would and should create a downward pressure on the level of rents people are willing to pay, reversing the disaster of the last government whose policies enriched a generation of buy to let landlords and impoverished the country.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    So what happens if you are happy to leave the place that's too big, but no alternative accommodation is available?
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    GIN1138 said:

    Been watching The Blessed Margaret on the Parliament Channel.

    Would Cameron and Osborne have been "Wets?" in Maggie's day?

    Their cast iron guarantees are written on soggy toilet paper, so probably yes.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    There's only a housing shortage because the political class opened the borders against the wishes of the native population and collude together to keep them open.

    So obviously any issue relating to the housing shortage will be seen in that light.

    If the political class weren't so completely insulated from the consequences of their actions they'd know this.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    FPT "Good to see Hertsmere taking centre stage"

    The Labour candidate was Frank Ward, who subsequently became Daputy Leader of Hertsmere Council from 1995-99. He resigned from Labour in 2006, and made a point of running as an independent in a number of wards in order to split the Labour vote. He did the party some damage in Borehamwood.

    His daughter, Claire Ward, was MP for Watford from 1997-2010.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    AveryLP said:

    @DavidL

    Poor politics I am afraid.

    David, you are beginning to sound like one on the Blessed Margaret's wets.

    The political principle upon which the removal of the spare room subsidy is built is intellectually solid, time honoured and of sound provenance. It is simply:

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

    Ralph Miliband will be turning in his grave at the heresy of his second son.

    Except it does not apply to pensioners. I wonder why.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    How many spare bedrooms do HM Queen and Prince Phillip have at Buck House ?

    Enough to keep Lord Rennard corridor creeping for weeks, Mark.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT How can I link to an image on my hard drive? Vanilla demands an URL not a file location.

    With respect to Vanilla - if I'm taking a screen shot - I'm not going to upload it to another site so I can then copy the URL so I can paste it here.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Socrates said:

    tim, I have some further numbers for you.

    1993
    Unemployment: 10.2%
    Unemployment benefit: £2.5bn

    2012
    Unemployment: 7.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £5.3bn

    2017 forecast
    Unemployment: 6.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £4.5bn

    Evil Tories - everyone knows the early 1990s were some sort of Dickensian nightmare of workhouses and slums.

    The benefits system generally was far more wide-ranging and generous under the last Tory government than anything we've had for the last 10 to 15 years.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    @DavidL

    Poor politics I am afraid.

    David, you are beginning to sound like one on the Blessed Margaret's wets.

    The political principle upon which the removal of the spare room subsidy is built is intellectually solid, time honoured and of sound provenance. It is simply:

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

    Ralph Miliband will be turning in his grave at the heresy of his second son.

    Except it does not apply to pensioners. I wonder why.

    I guess Osborne and IDS realised that private sector undertakers would be more efficient in downsizing than Local Councils.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    @AveryLP

    Well in fairness I was an active member of the SDP in the 1983 election we are watching and even held my nose really tight and voted for a Liberal (shudder). So that sounds reasonable enough.

    As I said in my original post the principle and logic are sound but the practical realities are extremely problematic. I am a great believer in the Lawson approach to political policy. Keep it as simple as possible. This simply isn't.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Sorry Marf, not a great one today. The government aren't making people pay for excess space, they are withdrawing benefits.

    This idea that withdrawing benefits is equivalent to a tax is bananas. Taxes are paid on earned income, what do people on benefits do to earn the money handed out to them?

    Also, Labour introduced similar rules for private sector accommodation already and this is just an extension of that same principal to housing associations.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    tim, I have some further numbers for you.

    1993
    Unemployment: 10.2%
    Unemployment benefit: £2.5bn

    2012
    Unemployment: 7.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £5.3bn

    2017 forecast
    Unemployment: 6.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £4.5bn

    Evil Tories - everyone knows the early 1990s were some sort of Dickensian nightmare of workhouses and slums.

    The benefits system generally was far more wide-ranging and generous under the last Tory government than anything we've had for the last 10 to 15 years.

    Southam, over the last couple of days, I have posted numbers for total benefits, for total benefits less pensions, for disability and unemployment benefits combined, and for just unemployment benefits. Under every measure, the expenditure post-cuts is going to be higher than the early 1990s, even after adjusting for population growth. This is despite the fact that back then unemployment was higher and incomes for the poor were lower.

    The current reforms are merely about getting the benefits bill part of the way back to previous, sensible levels.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited April 2013
    tim said:


    David Cameron wasn't averse to milking the taxpayer for lots of spare rooms when he maximised his mortgage to buy a five bedroomed constituency home was he.

    Classic tim. When in doubt, make it personal.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited April 2013
    MrJones said:

    FPT
    Global warming flat-lined in 1998.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    Obviously most people don't know this because they haven't been told.

    However the people making decisions in places like China and India know hence why they're carrying on buildings lots of coal power plants.

    So not only is the climate change bill an economic suicide bill for this country the deliberate de-industrializing of Britain as a result and the offshoring of that industry to countries who don't believe in global warming will increase the amount of CO2 those industries produce.

    The only way of actually reducing emissions would be to keep the industry here and fund research into improving the technology used.

    So even from a Green point of view the climate change bill is nothing but self-harming behaviour to no purpose - which is what they want - a bit of self-punishment for those dark satanic mills.

    Either way it's still good the global warmers are now saying this country will be becoming colder because of global warming. Perhaps energy policy will start to reflect that then?

    The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) is an important component of the Earth's climate system, characterized by a northward flow of warm, salty water in the upper layers of the Atlantic and a southward flow of colder water in the deep Atlantic [Abrupt Climate Change. A report by the US Climate Change Science Program (CCSP) and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research. Reston, VA: US Geological Survey.]

    Potential impacts associated with MOC changes include reduced warming or (in the case of abrupt change) absolute cooling of northern high-latitude areas near Greenland and north-western Europe [Schneider et al, "Chapter 19: Assessing key vulnerabilities and the risk from climate change", Sec. 19.3.5.3 Possible changes in the North Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (MOC), in IPCC AR4 WG2 2007.]

    Seeing as the UK is never really going to be able to effect the atmosphere ceteris paribus as much as the BRIC countries and the USA and thus generally has to react to any climate effects, I'd have thought it would be prudent if one were to follow the science to invest in plenty of Nuclear power plants in particular as these have very little CO2 emmission and could help us for the increased energy usage that we will need due to lower temperatures.

    As it is the energy policies of the last Labour Gov't and the coalition have been to say LA LA LALALALALAALALAALA CLIMATE CHANGE WIND FARMS LALALALALAALALA and bury their head in the sand as to the real needs of the country.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    tim, I have some further numbers for you.

    1993
    Unemployment: 10.2%
    Unemployment benefit: £2.5bn

    2012
    Unemployment: 7.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £5.3bn

    2017 forecast
    Unemployment: 6.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £4.5bn

    Evil Tories - everyone knows the early 1990s were some sort of Dickensian nightmare of workhouses and slums.

    The benefits system generally was far more wide-ranging and generous under the last Tory government than anything we've had for the last 10 to 15 years.

    Southam, over the last couple of days, I have posted numbers for total benefits, for total benefits less pensions, for disability and unemployment benefits combined, and for just unemployment benefits. Under every measure, the expenditure post-cuts is going to be higher than the early 1990s, even after adjusting for population growth. This is despite the fact that back then unemployment was higher and incomes for the poor were lower.

    The current reforms are merely about getting the benefits bill part of the way back to previous, sensible levels.

    It was a lot more generous. The last time I was unemployed, back in 1992, we had our mortgage costs met on top of the dole money I got. That stopped happening years ago.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Mr. Jones,

    The purpose of the Climate Change Act is to enable our politicians to go poncing round the globe feeling smug and doing their holier-than-thou act. That the Chinese, Indians et al are pissing themselves laughing behind their hands at this act of supreme stupidity and economic suicide is not important, neither is the fact that it will do nothing to reduce those nasty emissions.

    The supreme stupidity, no downright insanity, of the Act and associated measures, is demonstrated by the conversion of the coal burning power stations to imported wood chips from the USA. The policy damages employment, balance of payments, government finances (wood chip = biomass = subsidy), energy security and does feck all to reduce carbon emissions (all that energy to produce the wood chips and move them thousands of miles).
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322



    It was a lot more generous. The last time I was unemployed, back in 1992, we had our mortgage costs met on top of the dole money I got. That stopped happening years ago.

    You are using your individual experience. I'm using total expenditure from the DWP and OBR. I'm sorry but data triumphs over anecdote.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Mr. Jones,

    The purpose of the Climate Change Act is to enable our politicians to go poncing round the globe feeling smug and doing their holier-than-thou act. That the Chinese, Indians et al are pissing themselves laughing behind their hands at this act of supreme stupidity and economic suicide is not important, neither is the fact that it will do nothing to reduce those nasty emissions.

    The supreme stupidity, no downright insanity, of the Act and associated measures, is demonstrated by the conversion of the coal burning power stations to imported wood chips from the USA. The policy damages employment, balance of payments, government finances (wood chip = biomass = subsidy), energy security and does feck all to reduce carbon emissions (all that energy to produce the wood chips and move them thousands of miles).

    It's when you get outcomes like that you know something's not right.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    tim, I have some further numbers for you.

    1993
    Unemployment: 10.2%
    Unemployment benefit: £2.5bn

    2012
    Unemployment: 7.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £5.3bn

    2017 forecast
    Unemployment: 6.9%
    Jobseeker's allowance: £4.5bn

    Evil Tories - everyone knows the early 1990s were some sort of Dickensian nightmare of workhouses and slums.

    The benefits system generally was far more wide-ranging and generous under the last Tory government than anything we've had for the last 10 to 15 years.

    Southam, over the last couple of days, I have posted numbers for total benefits, for total benefits less pensions, for disability and unemployment benefits combined, and for just unemployment benefits. Under every measure, the expenditure post-cuts is going to be higher than the early 1990s, even after adjusting for population growth. This is despite the fact that back then unemployment was higher and incomes for the poor were lower.

    The current reforms are merely about getting the benefits bill part of the way back to previous, sensible levels.
    It's a paradox that, when it comes to welfare, governments have to run harder and harder to stand still. The number of claims rises constantly, even as governments make the system less generous. It's hard to believe, now, that you could actually get your fees paid to go through Law School, in the early Seventies.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @DavidL

    I did the circus in Croydon in 1987 and the Alliance/SDP garden signers were the most dreadfully rude and strident of any of those I door-knocked on. Labourites were almost always polite if nonplussed and Tories worried about having posters in their cars or windows in case they got vandalised.

    They remind me very much of the Kippers today - a missionary zeal that condemns all others as sell-outs/part of The System and stupid.

    It's remarkable how the wheel turns.

    and

    RT @harryph: The Labour Party share of the vote in 1983 was only 28%. In 2010 it zoomed up to 29%. #election83
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "It's a paradox that, when it comes to welfare, governments have to run harder and harder to stand still. The number of claims rises constantly ..."

    So the number of claimants is going to have to go down. It is going to be nasty in political terms but raising substantially and quickly the pension age is the only way that sufficient effect will be produced.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    It's a paradox that, when it comes to welfare, governments have to run harder and harder to stand still. The number of claims rises constantly, even as governments make the system less generous. It's hard to believe, now, that you could actually get your fees paid to go through Law School, in the early Seventies.

    Yes - perhaps I am being a bit too harsh on Southam. But I would say there's two answers for this paradox. The first is that an ever greater number of individuals are content to survive on benefits alone. The second is that the amount of benefits given out if you do meet the criteria is more generous. I don't think the two are unrelated.

    There was a laughable suggestion from tim yesterday that benefits should stay stable as a share of GDP. That means as we get wealthier, we need to give out more money to lift people out of poverty. It's the opposite of logic.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Pulpstar said:

    MrJones said:

    FPT
    Global warming flat-lined in 1998.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    Obviously most people don't know this because they haven't been told.

    However the people making decisions in places like China and India know hence why they're carrying on buildings lots of coal power plants.

    So not only is the climate change bill an economic suicide bill for this country the deliberate de-industrializing of Britain as a result and the offshoring of that industry to countries who don't believe in global warming will increase the amount of CO2 those industries produce.

    The only way of actually reducing emissions would be to keep the industry here and fund research into improving the technology used.

    So even from a Green point of view the climate change bill is nothing but self-harming behaviour to no purpose - which is what they want - a bit of self-punishment for those dark satanic mills.

    Either way it's still good the global warmers are now saying this country will be becoming colder because of global warming. Perhaps energy policy will start to reflect that then?

    The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) is an important component of the Earth's climate system, characterized by a northward flow of warm, salty water in the upper layers of the Atlantic and a southward flow of colder water in the deep Atlantic [Abrupt Climate Change. A report by the US Climate Change Science Program (CCSP) and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research. Reston, VA: US Geological Survey.]

    Potential impacts associated with MOC changes include reduced warming or (in the case of abrupt change) absolute cooling of northern high-latitude areas near Greenland and north-western Europe [Schneider et al, "Chapter 19: Assessing key vulnerabilities and the risk from climate change", Sec. 19.3.5.3 Possible changes in the North Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (MOC), in IPCC AR4 WG2 2007.]

    Seeing as the UK is never really going to be able to effect the atmosphere ceteris paribus as much as the BRIC countries and the USA and thus generally has to react to any climate effects, I'd have thought it would be prudent if one were to follow the science to invest in plenty of Nuclear power plants in particular as these have very little CO2 emmission and could help us for the increased energy usage that we will need due to lower temperatures.

    As it is the energy policies of the last Labour Gov't and the coalition have been to say LA LA LALALALALAALALAALA CLIMATE CHANGE WIND FARMS LALALALALAALALA and bury their head in the sand as to the real needs of the country.
    There's two arguments here
    1) Global warming flat-lined in 1998 - so the whole debate is nonsense.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    however as most people don't know that then

    2) Yes, now the warmers are saying this country is going to get colder because of global warming it probably makes sense to encourage and cheerlead this process so

    this global warming making the country colder tsk tsk very bad, we need to build more nuclear power stations quick before we all freeze to death.
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    MrJones said:

    FPT
    Global warming flat-lined in 1998.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    Obviously most people don't know this because they haven't been told.

    However the people making decisions in places like China and India know hence why they're carrying on buildings lots of coal power plants.

    So not only is the climate change bill an economic suicide bill for this country the deliberate de-industrializing of Britain as a result and the offshoring of that industry to countries who don't believe in global warming will increase the amount of CO2 those industries produce.

    The only way of actually reducing emissions would be to keep the industry here and fund research into improving the technology used.

    So even from a Green point of view the climate change bill is nothing but self-harming behaviour to no purpose - which is what they want - a bit of self-punishment for those dark satanic mills.

    Either way it's still good the global warmers are now saying this country will be becoming colder because of global warming. Perhaps energy policy will start to reflect that then?

    According to dutch scientists, Antarctic sea ice has expanded substantially in last 30 years. Not that the Beeb will mention that! Story is in The Age in Melbourne if you want to check it out.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    @Socrates


    You've posted lots of stats you didn't understand all of which have included pensions and payments to pensioners.

    Nothing of any substance to back up anything you've said

    The last numbers I posted were JSA and unemployment benefit, and nothing else.

    Clearly, you're a thicko as well as a bigot.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    Nice cartoon, Marf as always!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    "It's a paradox that, when it comes to welfare, governments have to run harder and harder to stand still. The number of claims rises constantly ..."

    So the number of claimants is going to have to go down. It is going to be nasty in political terms but raising substantially and quickly the pension age is the only way that sufficient effect will be produced.

    Hurst, I am pretty sure limiting benefits to something nearer the minimum wage and making all recipients do 40 hours of real work or lose the freebies would reduce the bill quickly. Some of those jobs that the foreigners take up and manage to live on might even be filled by locals. The country is in a state litter and deprivation everywhere, get some of these slackers sorting it out.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Somehow I can't imagine EdM doing anything like this. I've helped with a couple of lambings in the small hours [my neighbours are here every two or three hours during the night] and its a messy business. Still, I'm sure someone on here will make lots of sneery remarks nevertheless knowing eff-all about life outside Google searches...

    " “He [Cameron] was concentrating on getting this sheep out. He was covered in mud. I was glad he was there doing it, not me. It was very wet weather and getting dark.”

    Mr Tustian said the death of the two lambs had been “the start of a bad year, with the snow. It was a bad time. We have had a bad time this winter with the snow and lost quite a few lambs.”

    This isn’t the first time Cameron has given a sheep a helping hand, after he was drafted in by Mr Tustian to aid a ewe struggling to give birth to two lambs a few years ago.

    Mr Cameron acted as the farmer’s assistant for 15 minutes until the lambs were born, even volunteering for the task of pulling out the lambs himself as he had smaller hands than the farmer... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9964348/David-Cameron-wades-into-swamp-to-rescue-sheep.html
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's a paradox that, when it comes to welfare, governments have to run harder and harder to stand still. The number of claims rises constantly, even as governments make the system less generous. It's hard to believe, now, that you could actually get your fees paid to go through Law School, in the early Seventies.

    Yes - perhaps I am being a bit too harsh on Southam. But I would say there's two answers for this paradox. The first is that an ever greater number of individuals are content to survive on benefits alone. The second is that the amount of benefits given out if you do meet the criteria is more generous. I don't think the two are unrelated.

    There was a laughable suggestion from tim yesterday that benefits should stay stable as a share of GDP. That means as we get wealthier, we need to give out more money to lift people out of poverty. It's the opposite of logic.
    As long as they can make more lying in bed rather than working we will have a rising benefits bill.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Dear God

    April Fools' Day is a trial for readers of newspapers and other media as they attempt to spot the anagrams and other clues that tip the wink that a particular story is a work of fiction.

    But here is a round-up of some of this year's bizarre stories that are true, or seriously intended at least.

    1. Universities are offering courses in Harry Potter and "ethical hacking". Durham University's education department offers a module entitled Harry Potter and the Age of Illusion which includes a section "Welcome to Hogwarts: the commodification of education". Abertay Dundee offered a course on ethical hacking, consumer website Which? noted.

    More details (Daily Telegraph) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21993582
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    Plato said:

    OT How can I link to an image on my hard drive? Vanilla demands an URL not a file location.

    With respect to Vanilla - if I'm taking a screen shot - I'm not going to upload it to another site so I can then copy the URL so I can paste it here.

    I was going to attach a pix of a giant Easter Bunny I saw at North Weald station yesterday! But I can't!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    @Socrates

    Says the man too dim to realise that his benefits graphs all included pensions

    LOL

    If you plot low levels of IQ, you go down from average levels, to those with learning difficulties, to those who are mentally retarded. Just below that is creationists. The bottom level is adults who use "LOL" in their communication.

    Now quiet, thicko. Why don't you go and find some retired people claiming JSA?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    Plato said:


    Mr Cameron acted as the farmer’s assistant for 15 minutes until the lambs were born, even volunteering for the task of pulling out the lambs himself as he had smaller hands than the farmer... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9964348/David-Cameron-wades-into-swamp-to-rescue-sheep.html

    I am sure 15 minutes real work must have scarred him for life.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    @Plato

    I was assuming that article was a UKIPGraph April Fool's joke.

    Ditto JohnLoony joining the Blue Lovelies, but he's persisted with that one after the midday deadline.
  • Yes, I think it is one of her stronger cartoons, Sunil.

    The policy has the makings of a PR blunder and I think she rather lightly indicates why. The fact that Max felt the need to leap to the Government's defence rather suggests she has a point!

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211

    Yes, I think it is one of her stronger cartoons, Sunil.

    The policy has the makings of a PR blunder and I think she rather lightly indicates why. The fact that Max felt the need to leap to the Government's defence rather suggests she has a point!

    How so? The policy is popular according to all the polls, isn't it?

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Socrates said:

    tim said:

    @Socrates

    Says the man too dim to realise that his benefits graphs all included pensions

    LOL

    If you plot low levels of IQ, you go down from average levels, to those with learning difficulties, to those who are mentally retarded. Just below that is creationists. The bottom level is adults who use "LOL" in their communication.

    Now quiet, thicko. Why don't you go and find some retired people claiming JSA?

    Good one. Very good one. LoL. Oh dear.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:



    Hurst, I am pretty sure limiting benefits to something nearer the minimum wage and making all recipients do 40 hours of real work or lose the freebies would reduce the bill quickly. Some of those jobs that the foreigners take up and manage to live on might even be filled by locals. The country is in a state litter and deprivation everywhere, get some of these slackers sorting it out.

    Mr. G.,

    I am all in favour of workfare and am quite sure that its introduction would reduce the number of claimants substantially. However, the biggest chunk of welfare spending goes on pensioners and unless that is tackled the welfare bill will continue to climb evermore because people are living longer. There are measures in place to gently nudge up the retirement age, however I think we might well run out of credit (we have already run out of money) before they kick in.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,227
    edited April 2013

    @JohnO



    "How so? The policy is popular according to all the polls, isn't it?"



    I don't know, John. If you say so, I am sure that is right.

    I was just thinking that it didn't sit too comfortably alongside the reduction in the higher rate of tax.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited April 2013
    @pulpstar
    I've been dismissing the gulf stream thing as just them looking for a fallback position from the previous "no snow no more" line so i hadn't swotted up on it but although global warming flat-lined in 1998 it flat-lined at an elevated level so logically at least there could be something to the idea i.e. the warming that took place up till 1998 being enough to tip the gulf stream a bit leading to Britain getting colder?

    Will have to swot some more on that.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    @Socrates & @tim

    Two little boys had two little toys
    Each had a wooden horse
    Gaily they played each summer's day
    Warriors both of course
    One little chap then had a mishap
    Broke off his horse's head
    Wept for his toy then cried with joy
    As his young playmate said


    Did you think I would leave you crying
    When there's room on my horse for two
    Climb up here Jack and don't be crying
    I can go just as fast with two
    When we grow up we'll both be soldiers
    And our horses will not be toys
    And I wonder if we'll remember
    When we were two little boys



    ROFL (sic)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "I was going to attach a pix of a giant Easter Bunny I saw at North Weald station yesterday! But I can't!"

    Bring back Disqus, I say. What sort of system allows videos but denies us pictures of cats, trains and giant Easter Bunnies (not to mention a reliable widget)? And to think that Mr. Smithson pays for this as well.

    Belike.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2013
    @MrJones
    @Socrates
    @tim
    Re 'Climate Change (aka 'Global Warming')[sic]

    Look up Maunder Minimum and Dalton Minimum and then look at current Sunspot activity.
    It's about to get colder, and stay colder, for some decades to come.

    Probably.

    Edit: And if you have the time, look at atmospheric CO2 levels over geological time and relate that to the total amount of life on Earth over those times.

    High CO2 (up to 400x that of today) as existed pre-Carboniferous would suggest global temperatures near that of Venus if the 'Warmists' were correct: in fact, life flourished in what is generally thought to have been a warm, wet global climate for much of time.

    The reality is that global CO2 levels since the last Ice Age have been historically exceptionally low, and it's into that context that the current small rise (and projected rises) in atmospheric CO2 should be set.

    Mediaeval 250 ppm
    Today 280-300 ppm
    Max predicted 450-500 ppm

    Pre-Carboniferous - 100,000 to as high as 220,000ppm (pre photosynthesis, so not relevant here)

    Put simply, there are ~200,000ppm of O2 and CO2 in the atmosphere, and the relative proportions of the two has tended towards more O2 and less CO2 over time, with wide fluctuations during various periods in Earth's history.

    Anything over 50,000 ppm CO2 would make breathing very, very difficult, and realistically 10,000ppm is the upper limit.
    Most commercial greenhouses raise the CO2 level to 1000ppm as that's the cost/benefit optimum for plant growth and yield (in the UK anyway - tropical grasses (C4 p/s) cope with higher temperatures and lower CO2 levels better than temperate plants (C3 p/s) or the relatively rare CAM plants (adapted to deserts, where H2O is the limiting factor))

    I'll believe the warmists when their proposed solutions to the 'problem' involve lower taxes and cheaper energy, largely generated from nuclear.

    Societies flourish when energy is cheap and wither and die when it's expensive: warmists' 'solutions' to Climate Change will, inevitably, kill our civilisation.
    I note that 'being Green' and 'economic growth' are mutually incompatible, though few in power (!) seem to accept that simple truth.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @tim

    You are thick enough to believe those retired from the workforce are included even when I specifically list out the data included as being JOBSEEKERS allowance and UNEMPLOYMENT benefit. In addition to being entirely negative in your posts, regularly abusive to other posters, and using hate slurs about social groups you dislike, I've concluded that you have no redeeming features whatsoever. Even when you are comprehensively shown to be wrong, you are psychologically incapable of conceding a point. There is thus very little point engaging with you.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited April 2013
    PODMWAS.

    BBC ticker:

    BREAKING NEWS:Sunderland FC say it is "insulting" to new manager Paolo Di Canio to accuse him of being "racist or having fascist sympathies"
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    @redcliffe
    "According to dutch scientists, Antarctic sea ice has expanded substantially in last 30 years. Not that the Beeb will mention that! Story is in The Age in Melbourne if you want to check it out."

    Thing about cultural hegemony is it works a bit like voodoo mind-control. As long as the BBC says global warming exists on the 6 o' clock news then the majority will believe it and politically it will exist.

    But by the same token pointing out to people the BBC admit on a quiet corner of their website that global warming flat-lined in 1998 (at an elevated level to be fair) is enough to burst the voodoo spell on an individual level.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/posts/Global-warming-The-missing-energy

    It's magic.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @Tara_Hewitt: Under labour i lived off £30 a week as my housing benefit was deducted for spare room in private rented house #bedroomtax @bbc5live

    And yet Labour see those who rent in the private sector as second class citizens since 2008? When were the BBC making a song and dance about it then? Oh...
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    @tim - do you know the answer?I'd be interested in it whether provided by you or Socrates.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @tim I refer you to my last post. Perhaps you can get a friend to explain it to you if you're struggling with the reading comprehension.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AN1 said:

    @MrJones
    @Socrates
    @tim
    Re 'Climate Change (aka 'Global Warming')[sic]

    Look up Maunder Minimum and Dalton Minimum and then look at current Sunspot activity.
    It's about to get colder, and stay colder, for some decades to come.

    Probably.

    That's my personal opinion as well. However given that most people won't believe it till the BBC tells them i was wondering how best to play with the current change in line vis a vis Britain getting colder due to global warming.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @HurstLlama

    "And to think that Mr. Smithson pays for this as well."

    For the first month Vanilla is a free trial so no one is paying for it - we have a few days to go yet.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    - and another NFL story.....

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000156318/article/leon-sandcastle-will-be-drafted-no-1-overall-by-chiefs

    Leon's 40 yard dash time of 4.20 at the Combine was impressive.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    I concur with Mr. Llama and Mr. Max.

    Incidentally, hasn't this been the case for years with private sector housing? Why does it suddenly matter when it's public sector?

    In the same, way private sector pensions have been hit far harder in recent years than the public sector, but all the complaining seems to revolve around the latter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    malcolmg said:



    Hurst, I am pretty sure limiting benefits to something nearer the minimum wage and making all recipients do 40 hours of real work or lose the freebies would reduce the bill quickly. Some of those jobs that the foreigners take up and manage to live on might even be filled by locals. The country is in a state litter and deprivation everywhere, get some of these slackers sorting it out.

    Mr. G.,

    I am all in favour of workfare and am quite sure that its introduction would reduce the number of claimants substantially. However, the biggest chunk of welfare spending goes on pensioners and unless that is tackled the welfare bill will continue to climb evermore because people are living longer. There are measures in place to gently nudge up the retirement age, however I think we might well run out of credit (we have already run out of money) before they kick in.

    Hurst, unfortunately most of those people worked all their lives and actually contributed to get a pension. It is the myriads of people who do not wish to contribute to society but just take that are the issue. Bit tough having paid for 50 years to have your pension stopped to fund a layabout.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    So is the failed Labour politician part of the media?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21994889

    "Paolo Di Canio: Sunderland manager hurt by fascist claims

    Paolo Di Canio says he is hurt by his portrayal in the media since becoming Sunderland manager.
    The Italian was appointed boss of the struggling Premier League club on Sunday following the dismissal of previous incumbent Martin O'Neill.
    Di Canio apologised for causing offence with statements of a political nature but said he had been misquoted.
    Sunderland chief executive Margaret Byrne denied Di Canio was a fascist or a racist, as some have claimed."
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    The BBC have updated the story.

    Paolo Di Canio: Sunderland manager hurt by fascist claims

    Paolo Di Canio says he is hurt by his portrayal in the media since becoming Sunderland manager.
    The Italian was appointed boss of the struggling Premier League club on Sunday following the dismissal of previous incumbent Martin O'Neill.
    Di Canio, 44, apologised for causing offence with statements of a political nature but said he had been misquoted.
    "What I can say is that if someone is hurt, I am sorry," said Di Canio in a statement released by his club.
    Ex-foreign secretary David Miliband resigned from the board of Sunderland because of Di Canio's "past political statements" but chief executive Margaret Byrne denied Di Canio was a fascist or a racist.
    Di Canio has called former fascist dictator Mussolini "a very principled ethical individual" who was "deeply misunderstood". In 2005, he was pictured making a raised-arm salute to a group of supporters of Roman club Lazio, where he was playing.
    "I expressed an opinion in an interview many years ago," Di Canio added. "Some pieces were taken for media convenience. They took my expression in a very, very negative way.
    "But it was a long conversation and a long interview. It was not fair.
    "Talk about racism? That is absolutely stupid, stupid and ridiculous. The people who know me can change that idea quickly. When I was in England my best friends were (black England players) Trevor Sinclair and Chris Powell, the Charlton manager - they can tell you everything about my character.
    "I don't want to talk about politics because it's not my area. We are not in the Houses of Parliament, we are in a football club. I want to talk about sport. I want to talk about football."
    More to follow.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21994889
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For all his detractors... good man.

    Ryanair chief Michael O'Leary, boss of Gigginstown stud, gives 200,000 euros to fund for paralysed jockey JT McNamara after Akorakor win
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "Look up Maunder Minimum and Dalton Minimum and then look at current Sunspot activity.
    It's about to get colder, and stay colder, for some decades to come."

    Well, the obvious solution to that is for the UK to close down much of its industry and to build lots and lots of windmills using imported components. Then we shall be all snug and toasty warm.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @JohnO

    The data I have can not strip out claimant numbers across multiple benefits because there is almost certainly overlap in the claimant population.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Not that the NUT are bonkers...oh no RT @tes: Schools are being "ethnically cleansed of teachers of colour" says teacher June-Marie Robinson
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:


    Hurst, unfortunately most of those people worked all their lives and actually contributed to get a pension. It is the myriads of people who do not wish to contribute to society but just take that are the issue. Bit tough having paid for 50 years to have your pension stopped to fund a layabout.

    All very true and sensible as always, Mr. G. (well apart from some of your nationalist stuff, but let that pass). I don't think I would advocate letting the dolescum carry on as now whilst deferring the pensions of many. It is not really an either or situation. However, unless the pension age is raised substantially and soon then the problem will not be solved.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    @Plato NUT must have forgotten to cross check date. A Mr Mladic could finish the job properly...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Folks say that global warming stopped in 1988.

    Richard Feynman and Roy Orbison died in 1988.

    Therefor Richard Feynman and Roy Orbison caused global warming.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    I have just noticed that my cat doesn't appear to have moved for about seven hours. He is not snoring and I can't see any signs of respiration.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    malcolmg said:


    Hurst, unfortunately most of those people worked all their lives and actually contributed to get a pension. It is the myriads of people who do not wish to contribute to society but just take that are the issue. Bit tough having paid for 50 years to have your pension stopped to fund a layabout.

    All very true and sensible as always, Mr. G. (well apart from some of your nationalist stuff, but let that pass). I don't think I would advocate letting the dolescum carry on as now whilst deferring the pensions of many. It is not really an either or situation. However, unless the pension age is raised substantially and soon then the problem will not be solved.

    I was reading about the Singapore system the other day. Apparently they take a chunk out your wages to go into a personal account that can only be spent on healthcare, housing and pensions. In one way it's very paternalistic, but it also encourages individual responsibility, as it's all based around the individual, yet also makes sure people plan for the future.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Tim_B said:

    Folks say that global warming stopped in 1988.

    Richard Feynman and Roy Orbison died in 1988.

    Therefor Richard Feynman and Roy Orbison caused global warming.

    2010 is the highest temperature on record.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Wow. Paxo back in the day.

    Nice to have some proper discussion rather than a demented puppet leaping about dodging 3D graphics and a ship of celebrity fools.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT A puppy that looks like a teddy bear - really.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BGxudoUCcAEgzLB.jpg:large
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    dr_spyn said:

    So is the failed Labour politician part of the media?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21994889

    "Paolo Di Canio: Sunderland manager hurt by fascist claims

    Paolo Di Canio says he is hurt by his portrayal in the media since becoming Sunderland manager.
    The Italian was appointed boss of the struggling Premier League club on Sunday following the dismissal of previous incumbent Martin O'Neill.
    Di Canio apologised for causing offence with statements of a political nature but said he had been misquoted.
    Sunderland chief executive Margaret Byrne denied Di Canio was a fascist or a racist, as some have claimed."

    Wonder if David Millipede would have resigned had Di Canio expressed admiration for Stalin. Probably not, as Millipede pere had no issue with Uncle Joe.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146

    "Look up Maunder Minimum and Dalton Minimum and then look at current Sunspot activity.
    It's about to get colder, and stay colder, for some decades to come."

    Well, the obvious solution to that is for the UK to close down much of its industry and to build lots and lots of windmills using imported components. Then we shall be all snug and toasty warm.

    Surely you mean smug?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @Socrates

    2010 is the highest temperature on record.

    Wow - so now I've proved there's life after death as well.

    This is turning into a productive morning! ;-)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    edited April 2013


    I was reading about the Singapore system the other day. Apparently they take a chunk out your wages to go into a personal account that can only be spent on healthcare, housing and pensions. In one way it's very paternalistic, but it also encourages individual responsibility, as it's all based around the individual, yet also makes sure people plan for the future.





    Socrates, unlikely to happen here as we have too many whinging lefties and liberals, all very well off and not affected or having to mix with the lower classes. Add to that dolts as politicians and it will only be sorted when we have been forced to go to the IMF cap in hand.
    Big difference is that in countries like Singapore you do not get more money for lying in your bed, your family starve. Only in the UK can you lead a better lifestyle by never working and just taking other peoples hard earned cash, and yet they still whinge.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    May I enquire as to why lots of Lefties are filling Twitter with claims that the NHS died today?

    I've no idea what they're squealing about, but they are in full throated outrage. Is this an April Fool that's gotten out of hand?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    @Peter_2 Doesn't say much for Miliband's ability to convert Di Canio.

    Given that Nicholson professed support for communism, am surprised he was ever allowed to progress to a position of influence in the NHS.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    @Peter_2

    " Surely you mean smug? "

    My house hasn't been over 8C upstairs in 5 months unless it was warmer outside.

    I very much doubt any of those who vote of greeny legislation are ever below 70F or 20C indoors.

    When you go to bed dressed in sweatshirts, jogging bottoms and thick socks - and hope cats lie on you - that kinda says it all when it comes to those who are experiencing the cold and those who don't notice.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    dr_spyn said:

    @Peter_2 Doesn't say much for Miliband's ability to convert Di Canio.

    Given that Nicholson professed support for communism, am surprised he was ever allowed to progress to a position of influence in the NHS.

    Surely it'd be de rigeur?
  • Those advocating yet more windmills should ask themselves why their owners all went bust when water- and steam-powered corn mills came along.

    Or is it more perfectly windy today than then?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Test ... for the PB time-clock
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Plato said:

    May I enquire as to why lots of Lefties are filling Twitter with claims that the NHS died today?

    I've no idea what they're squealing about, but they are in full throated outrage. Is this an April Fool that's gotten out of hand?

    CTL-R [Search & Replace]

    Find What: "Mandela"
    Replace With:" NHS"

    Tweet.

    Carry on drinking.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    @Socrates.
    The data I have can not strip out claimant numbers across multiple benefits because there is almost certainly overlap in the claimant population.

    So all your assertions were

    a.Initially based on pensions
    b.Groundless speculation because you didn't have the data.

    Which is what I've been trying to tell you.

    You clearly (a) have not understood the actual assertions I made, and (b) have not understood my post at 3:23. I realise you probably can't follow up on my suggestion for a friend to help you out, as you likely do not have any, but perhaps you still maintain some contact with family members?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Fascinating to watch some of the early reactions to that Conservative win back after the 1983 GE just now on the BBC Parliament Channel.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Lian There's No Money Left Byrne banging on about £100K tax cut for millionaries. Pity that the media didn't bother to ask questions about implications for Government deficits or additions to tax bills from Brown's budgets.

    Labour mastered fiscal incontinence 1997-2010.

    Any suggestions how I can avoid evade bedroom tax. Can't find anything on it on the HMRC site.
This discussion has been closed.