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  • watford30 said:

    Leave should simply invent vaguely plausible figures, and repeat them endlessly. That seems to be how it works with Remain.
    Problem with that is that the LSE and the IFS generally endorse the Treasury report. The leave campaign have been saying that the trend in the polls is with them but ORB report tonight should concern leave greatly. Headline figure 52 remain 43 leave but it is the anaylsis that should be read
  • Sorry didn't see.
    It's ok, busy times on PB, and at least for the next couple of months.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    Also fun watching the tory leave MP's and membership get revenge on the snake when the leadership contest starts.
    Poor old pasty face. Osborne's threats to remove patronage won't work on the membership. They can read the runes showing his unpopularity across the electorate as a whole, and are unlikely to vote in an obvious loser.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,284
    SeanT said:

    I might add that I am a bit drunk. We had lots of nice wine.



    Question to all - is it worse for for someone to obsess about political minutiae when drunk or sober? As a teetotaler I suspect the latter for the lack of excuse.

    Good night
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,777
    edited April 2016

    Also fun watching the tory leave MP's and membership get revenge on the snake when the leadership contest starts.
    I'm hoping he becomes leader actually... It will make his eventual fall and humiliation all the more enjoyable if we get to see him totally destroyed (like Brown was) from Downing St.

    Because of what Cameron and Osborne have done the Tories will be out of power for a very long time when Osborne is eventually thrown out by the electorate, IMO.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Surely the vast majority of those 3 million will come anyway even if we leave? Free movement will remain in one form or another.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393
    edited April 2016
    AnneJGP said:

    I think the whole boring EUref campaign showcases this site's greatest strength: it's off-topic conversations.

    Very much like the test match commentators on the radio when it starts raining - they go from business to entertaining conversation without missing a beat.
    Off-topic #1: Bought the Star Wars: The Force Awakens DVD today - maybe will get the BluRay in due course :) Watching "Unknown" on Film4 at the mo., so prob. will watch it straight afterwards,

    Off-topic #2: On Sunday, visited Horley station near Gatwick, thereby visiting the last of the stations on the Gatwick line and the Hertford East line that Boris added to the London Oystercard map in 2015/16. I have re-achieved the feat of visiting every station marked on aforementioned map!
    http://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/01/07/09/GATWICKtubemapHIRES.jpg

    Off-topic #3: Did the Ely to King's Lynn railway branch today, also visiting Ely station in the process (had previously visited Ely by car in 2011).
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Goodness knows which % I'm in.

    Personally I'd be quite happy living in a federal European super-state. Suspect that, with sufficient practice/training/indoctrination, I could develop a similar level of satisfaction in my Europanness as I do currently in my Britishness. SeanT has written some fabulous paeans to European civilisation in the past. Something along those lines seems feasible as a source of "national" pride. The kicker is likely to be the disparity between the great peaks European culture has reached, and the bureaucratic, ossified, crisis-ridden nightmare that a European polity is likely to represent. Like the early history of the United States, the travails of the Eurozone indicate the perils of half-arsed integration.

    For me, the strongest reason for voting Leave is that the British public don't really want to be in a federal Europe. Integration is largely taking place by a "ratchet effect" - the tide only goes one way, and you can end up more closely bound than either intended or desired. And there are strong economic and political forces which are going to pull the "core" EU countries closer together, particularly in the Eurozone. Sure, Britain might have some opt-outs, but the logic inherent in the "we must stay in the EU, because we can't influence from the sidelines" applies just as well to our membership of the core. When the EU is dominated almost completely by the Eurozone, especially as more and more accession countries join the single currency, Britain is going to be more and more peripheral unless it starts "doing Europe properly", with many opt-outs becoming less politically tenable unless semi-isolation within Europe is accepted.

    Associate membership for the UK seems to me a better-fitting destination, in terms of popular will and perhaps even national character, than total integration. But where is the course for that?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    1-0 up and doing fine and he decides to dive, what a strange decision with potentially significant consequences. Feel like they're bottling it, squeaked a lot of games, but eventually luck runs out.
    It wasn't a dive, and the fightback with 10 men to equalise showed that Leicester are no bottlers.

    Spurs are keeping it interesting, but the 4 points that we took off them this season will be the 4 points that win it for us. (I hope!)
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Surely the vast majority of those 3 million will come anyway even if we leave? Free movement will remain in one form or another.

    The 3 million is assumed if we stay, go to EEA or leave altogether. Its a modelling assumption rather than some great conspiracy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,284



    Associate membership for the UK seems to me a better-fitting destination, in terms of popular will and perhaps even national character, than total integration. But where is the course for that?

    Indeed so. If I thought it possible, genuinely possible, I'd still be a Remainer.
  • Immigration will not work as an issue if the EEA/EFTA route is favoured.
    And ultimately that will become apparent. The Treasury report is clever in the sense it lays out the 3 different deals and this will set the agenda for leave to have to reveal which option they prefer or if none, then explain how they control immigration. The calculations and figures in the report are not as important as setting the agenda
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited April 2016

    Immigration will not work as an issue if the EEA/EFTA route is favoured.
    You are right - but hardly anyone understands that, do they?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,284

    It wasn't a dive
    As an alumnus of UoL I truly want Leicester to win, but it was a dive - classic striker move of stepping in front of a defender hoping for contact and then to go down, but throwing himself down theatrically too early.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    The contempt this government holds for its people is staggering and quite shocking. The lies from Osborne and associated hangers on are so obvious and so gross that I now feel a deep sense of shame. I am a Conservative voter but I have never disliked a politician as much as I now do Osborne. What a reptilian creep.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    It wasn't a dive, and the fightback with 10 men to equalise showed that Leicester are no bottlers.

    Spurs are keeping it interesting, but the 4 points that we took off them this season will be the 4 points that win it for us. (I hope!)
    I desperately want Leicester to win and I think Vardy deserves POTY but that was one of the most obvious dives I have seen in a long time.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    watford30 said:

    Poor old pasty face. Osborne's threats to remove patronage won't work on the membership. They can read the runes showing his unpopularity across the electorate as a whole, and are unlikely to vote in an obvious loser.
    George is an enigma, and I wouldn't write him off just yet. After the "omnishambles" budget PB was writing his political obituairy, but 3 years later he was widely credited as the annointed matermind of the election. Political tides change sometimes with startling rapidity.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Siemens join the Worldwide Global Conspiracy

    @BBCNewsnight: Siemens boss @Juergen_Maier says no-one in world has struck major trade deal in 2 years so after #Brexit would likely take longer #newsnight
  • It wasn't a dive, and the fightback with 10 men to equalise showed that Leicester are no bottlers.

    Spurs are keeping it interesting, but the 4 points that we took off them this season will be the 4 points that win it for us. (I hope!)
    Don't Leicester have Man U and Chelsea away in their last four games. Squeaky bum time maybe
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    Same here, as a fellow Hammers fan - and to think Leicester did so poorly last season!
    West Ham fans, Brexiters and imbued with a sense of fair play and decency.

    Be my brother Sunil. :-)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Surely the vast majority of those 3 million will come anyway even if we leave? Free movement will remain in one form or another.

    More swelling of our cities,great news for the Quality of life for the poor bastards living there.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I desperately want Leicester to win and I think Vardy deserves POTY but that was one of the most obvious dives I have seen in a long time.
    Clearly you have never watched Rahim Stirling play!

    There was far more adverse contact on Vardy than there was on Reid when he dived for the penalty at the other end.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    Jonathan said:

    The only celeb endorsement worth anything would be.

    David Attenborough
    David Beckham
    Paul McCartney

    Well Mrs Beckham has already come out for Leave. And we all know she wears the trousers in that household because David is wearing a Sari. :-)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Don't Leicester have Man U and Chelsea away in their last four games. Squeaky bum time maybe
    Spurs also play Chelsea away, and we have a five point advantage.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited April 2016

    George is an enigma, and I wouldn't write him off just yet. After the "omnishambles" budget PB was writing his political obituairy, but 3 years later he was widely credited as the annointed matermind of the election. Political tides change sometimes with startling rapidity.

    This time he is beyond redemption because he is so blatantly seeking to shaft so many in his party. If its what he thinks, fair enough, but his prospects are zero.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,953

    Leave will lose the economy case and they hope immigration will win them the day.
    I don't see European immigration as the force it once would have been in this debate. Perhaps we've gotten used to having these foreigners in our midst. Even the Poles! I know plenty of Brits who have got romantically involved with them, never mind wanting to 'send 'em back'. Of course, Islamic terrorists are a different matter, but for their presence here we have to blame the one club of nations the Leavers are actually keen on - the British Empire.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,183

    George is an enigma, and I wouldn't write him off just yet. After the "omnishambles" budget PB was writing his political obituairy, but 3 years later he was widely credited as the annointed matermind of the election. Political tides change sometimes with startling rapidity.

    Dr Fox I'm beginning to think that you're the patron saint of lost causes.

    You'll be writing a thread saying Tim Fallon (sic) can be the next PM, next.
  • Scott_P said:

    Siemens join the Worldwide Global Conspiracy

    @BBCNewsnight: Siemens boss @Juergen_Maier says no-one in world has struck major trade deal in 2 years so after #Brexit would likely take longer #newsnight

    The list against Brexit is overwhelming and it is all feeding into the economy. Notice the Mail and Sun are playing the immigration game but all this will do is invite more questions to leave on how they will control immigration
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    The list against Brexit is overwhelming and it is all feeding into the economy. Notice the Mail and Sun are playing the immigration game but all this will do is invite more questions to leave on how they will control immigration
    So the tories ten's of thousands was a complete lie ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNewsnight: "The Swiss had to base their major banks in London because they couldn't get a deal with the EU." #newsnight #EUref https://t.co/USbc4msB0S
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I'm thinking of doing a Labour defence list in terms of wards in the local elections, (excluding areas where boundary changes have taken place since 2012).
  • Spurs also play Chelsea away, and we have a five point advantage.
    Spurs were very good tonight and the way Chelsea are playing they should win. So should Leicester but I will never forget Fergie's first win that had us all nervous wrecks. The first one is the hardest but good luck to Leicester
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Siemens join the Worldwide Global Conspiracy

    @BBCNewsnight: Siemens boss @Juergen_Maier says no-one in world has struck major trade deal in 2 years so after #Brexit would likely take longer #newsnight

    Somehow, I doubt Siemens will wish to walk away from their existing market in the UK and neither would any other European business. Deals will be struck.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,729
    Look at those numbers - Imagine if LEAVE told people that actually they'd quite like EEA and free movement! Sure way to lose. So it won't happen. If LEAVE wins then the new Conservative leader will try to negotiate an EEA deal that gives Farage and Ukip a new cause to rally around (real sovereignty, real border control, real Brexit) and demoralises the political elite.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,777
    edited April 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNewsnight: "The Swiss had to base their major banks in London because they couldn't get a deal with the EU." #newsnight #EUref https://t.co/USbc4msB0S

    When/if George becomes leader (and get's destroyed as he inevitably will) will you be spinning (and re-tweeting) like Comincal Ali? :smiley:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,474
    FPT @Casino_Royale You should go and if the conversation gets uncomfortable you can take the Barbara Castle line - "If the country votes for Brexit the country will need people like you to save it from the kippers." You might even get some of them to see the positive side.
  • So the tories ten's of thousands was a complete lie ?
    It was not a lie but proved impossible to achieve. I do believe David Cameron should have abandoned the idea some time ago.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited April 2016

    It is the Treasury report that quote the figure. I think it is as unreliable as the 350 million per week leave quote is.
    No, the £4,300 figure is a forecast, which is in the range of possible outcomes. The £350 million figure is just plain wrong (or, as the Leavers are so fond of saying, a 'lie').
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Dr Fox I'm beginning to think that you're the patron saint of lost causes.

    You'll be writing a thread saying Tim Fallon (sic) can be the next PM, next.
    Just wary of writing anyone off. George has adeptly pulled rabbits out of the hat before, and also shot himself in the foot. He could do either again.

    If Remain win, and Cameron stays long enough for passions to die down a bit then he could be a contender, particularly if the economic figures pick up.

    I have more respect for the Blues who have picked a side and actively gone out campaigning for it than I do for those who have decided to lie low until they know which way the wind is blowing.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    GIN1138 said:

    When/if George becomes leader (and get's destroyed as he inevitably will) will you be spinning (and re-tweeting) like Comincal Ali? :smiley:
    Cameron will be gone. Osborne will be the fall guy. Watch Theresa - notionally supports REMAIN but says nothing. She is the unity candidate. Osborne is finished.
  • No, the £4,300 figure is a forecast, which is in the range of possible outcomes. The £350 million figure is just plain wrong (or, as the Leavers are so fond of saying, a 'lie').
    I agree but the way it was put over that each family will be £4,300 worse off by 2030 is controversial
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    No, the £4,300 figure is a forecast, which is in the range of possible outcomes. The £350 million figure is just plain wrong (or, as the Leavers are so fond of saying, a 'lie').
    A lie, as in 'leaving the EU could lead to Calais-style migrant camps being established in parts of the UK'?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393
    edited April 2016

    No, the £4,300 figure is a forecast, which is in the range of possible outcomes. The £350 million figure is just plain wrong (or, as the Leavers are so fond of saying, a 'lie').
    A net £10 bn given per annum to Brussels works out at £192 million per week.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    EPG said:

    Look at those numbers - Imagine if LEAVE told people that actually they'd quite like EEA and free movement! Sure way to lose. So it won't happen. If LEAVE wins then the new Conservative leader will try to negotiate an EEA deal that gives Farage and Ukip a new cause to rally around (real sovereignty, real border control, real Brexit) and demoralises the political elite.

    I agree. It is what makes an EEA/EFTA deal a nonstarter. The backlash against it from the bitter enders would be the final nail in the Tory coffin. Having lost the Cameroons they would then lose the BOOers.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    watford30 said:

    A lie, as in 'leaving the EU could lead to Calais-style migrant camps being established in parts of the UK'?

    No, more like 'millions of migrants are coming to the UK'.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    SeanT said:

    I will confirm it is NOT Alan Titchmarsh, we are talking someone EVEN more famous.

    And beyond that, my lips are zipped.
    Jo Brand? :wink:
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    It was not a lie but proved impossible to achieve. I do believe David Cameron should have abandoned the idea some time ago.
    You would living in North wales,I bet it's lovely - the new forecast of 3m more migrants,he won't get away with cut immigration lie again,hopefully he's gone by end of the year.
  • A net £10 bn given per annum to Brussels works out at £192 million per week.
    The farmers receive 3 billion pa. Is that included in your net figure
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    SeanT said:

    Useless anecdote alert: just had dinner with a very will informed friend, one of the most astute persons I know. This person is super bright, gently right wing, but very free thinking, and professionally knows EVERYONE from senior Cabinet Ministers to famous TV stars to all the major journalists.

    His thoughts on the referendum? Personally he s IN for selfish reasons, but he is now increasingly convinced it is too close to call. Far too close for comfort.

    My friend also named an extremely well known TV personality who is absolutely the epitome of Middle Britain, and my friend said this celeb was OUT, to his total surprise. Given that this celeb is generally regarded as a bellwether for the country, my friend now fears it will go OUT.

    Is it Elton John ?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited April 2016

    A net £10 bn given per annum to Brussels works out at £192 million per week.

    Quite. so.

    The true figure depends a bit on your assumptions and which year you take, but it certainly isn't £18bn. More like £8bn to £10bn, not all of which would be saved in any scenario, and little of which would be saved in the PB Leavers' favoured option of the EEA.

    For some inexplicable reason, however, the Leavers here, who are indignant about Cameron and Osborne putting their side of the case, are 100% relaxed at the repeated use by the Leave campaign of the bogus £18bn figure. It's bizarre. Something to do with double standards, I guess.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    I don't see European immigration as the force it once would have been in this debate. Perhaps we've gotten used to having these foreigners in our midst. Even the Poles! I know plenty of Brits who have got romantically involved with them, never mind wanting to 'send 'em back'. Of course, Islamic terrorists are a different matter, but for their presence here we have to blame the one club of nations the Leavers are actually keen on - the British Empire.
    If we go Brexit and have to negotiate a trade deal with the EU , they will insist on free movement. Eastern Europe is making too much money out of it to give it up. Immigration would not be easier to control.

  • You would living in North wales,I bet it's lovely - the new forecast of 3m more migrants,he won't get away with cut immigration lie again,hopefully he's gone by end of the year.
    I think David Cameron will be in Office at least until 2018, he will not be gone this year
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533
    Moses_ said:

    Jo Brand? :wink:
    Michael Mcintyre?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393

    The farmers receive 3 billion pa. Is that included in your net figure
    Yes, the lion's share of EU spending in the UK.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Trump coming up in Buffalo, NY...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScOw0RGp1io
  • Yes, the lion's share of EU spending in the UK.
    Maybe that is why they have declared for remain tonight
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,777
    edited April 2016
    PeterC said:

    Osborne is finished.
    That's a shame... I wanted the opportunity to humiliate him being voting him out of office.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533
    GIN1138 said:

    That's a shame... I wanted the opportunity to humiliate him being voting him out of office.
    Hammond is more likely than May if Osborne does not get it
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    perdix said:

    If we go Brexit and have to negotiate a trade deal with the EU , they will insist on free movement. Eastern Europe is making too much money out of it to give it up. Immigration would not be easier to control.

    Interestingly, the Treasury report today points out that the net migration figure is affected by outwards UK migration and policy decisions the UK takes to reduce immigration may result in retaliatory actions that reduce outwards emigration of UK citizens.

    I hadn't thought of this before but we could easily end up reducing immigration to the UK but still have higher net levels of migration.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Is it Elton John ?
    He definitely wants out!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393

    Quite. so.

    The true figure depends a bit on your assumptions and which year you take, but it certainly isn't £18bn. More like £8bn to £10bn, not all of which would be saved in any scenario, and little of which would be saved in the PB Leavers' favoured option of the EEA.

    For some inexplicable reason, however, the Leavers here, who are indignant about Cameron and Osborne putting their side of the case, are 100% relaxed at the repeated use by the Leave campaign of the bogus £18bn figure. It's bizarre. Something to do with double standards, I guess.
    I see the UK contribution to the EU for 2015 was £13 billion, and £4.5 billion was spent in the UK, so the net contribution would obviously be £8.5 billion.

    £8.5 bn divided by 52 weeks = £163 million per week.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    HYUFD said:

    Michael Mcintyre?
    The only one I can think of that's ultra famous, covers all generations is loved as an absolute national treasure while carrying a lot of sway is David Attenborough

    Can't see him getting involved though.
  • LayneLayne Posts: 163

    No, the £4,300 figure is a forecast, which is in the range of possible outcomes. The £350 million figure is just plain wrong (or, as the Leavers are so fond of saying, a 'lie').
    No. Dividing the 2030 GDP number by the 2015 household number, and then pretending it is a household income number, is just a lie.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    A net £10 bn given per annum to Brussels works out at £192 million per week.
    The Leave side reasonably claim that the gross amount sent should be considered the real number as what we get back comes with strings attached and often requires further matched spending. So we should look at the gross amount. I agree with this

    The trouble is that the gross amount is not the £19.2 Billion a year claimed which gives the £350 million a week. That number includes the rebate which never actually leaves the Treasury and absolutely should not be included in any claims about 'how much we send to Brussels'.

    So Richard is quite right. The £350 million is a dishonest figure and it does Leave no credit to be using it. They are particularly daft because without the rebate the real number is £288 million a week and most people would still consider that a vast amount of money. If they used that number then Richard would have no grounds for complaint. As it is they are wasting a great attack line by trying to hype it up.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Layne said:

    No. Dividing the 2030 GDP number by the 2015 household number, and then pretending it is a household income number, is just a lie.
    Fair enough.

    Now tell me, what is the £350 million a week figure?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,032

    Well Mrs Beckham has already come out for Leave. And we all know she wears the trousers in that household because David is wearing a Sari. :-)
    I would remove "UK" from the headline. It's obvious to what out refers without it, and it reads better.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    No, more like 'millions of migrants are coming to the UK'.
    Not that it bothers me but on a point of order isn't it the case that they already have?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Not that it bothers me but on a point of order isn't it the case that they already have?
    No, I meant the refugees/economic migrants entering the EU.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    No, I meant the refugees/economic migrants entering the EU.
    Apologies. I am trying very hard to be picky about both sides at the moment.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Apologies. I am trying very hard to be picky about both sides at the moment.
    My fault for not being clearer!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Useless fact: Liz Truss wasn't alive at the time of the previous referendum in June 1975.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,474
    Jonathan said:

    The only celeb endorsement worth anything would be.

    David Attenborough
    David Beckham
    Paul McCartney

    Or judging by their advertising fees, Esther Rantzen, Carol Vorderman or Michael Parkinson must be worth something.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,767
    Remain is out to 1.55 compared to 1.50 last night.

    Seems surprising given what's happened today, the ICM polls and now this ORB poll in particular.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    No, more like 'millions of migrants are coming to the UK'.
    So the 3 million figure used in Osborne's dodgy dossier is bollocks?

    You'd better tell The Sun before they print tomorrow's edition.
  • LayneLayne Posts: 163

    Fair enough.

    Now tell me, what is the £350 million a week figure?
    Both the number reported in the Pink Book, and a desperate attempt to change the subject.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393
    AndyJS said:

    Useless fact: Liz Truss wasn't alive at the time of the previous referendum in June 1975.

    And neither was Sunil :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,474
    Jonathan said:

    H from steps
    Sadly deceased - http://peterboroughbusiness.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/h-dead1-232x300.jpg
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I see the UK contribution to the EU for 2015 was £13 billion, and £4.5 billion was spent in the UK, so the net contribution would obviously be £8.5 billion.

    £8.5 bn divided by 52 weeks = £163 million per week.
    On moneygoround.eu the figure works our as about £6 billion, or €117 percapita:

    http://money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

    Of course if you do not allow the EU expenditure on farming, conservation regional development or universities that comes back then you get to a bigger figure. It does mean that that spending will have to be cut so the money is spent on our NHS. Don't be surprised if the farmers, regions and universities are unhappy at their drop in income and campaign for Remain
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,393

    On moneygoround.eu the figure works our as about £6 billion, or €117 percapita:

    http://money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

    Of course if you do not allow the EU expenditure on farming, conservation regional development or universities that comes back then you get to a bigger figure. It does mean that that spending will have to be cut so the money is spent on our NHS. Don't be surprised if the farmers, regions and universities are unhappy at their drop in income and campaign for Remain
    https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533
    Moses_ said:

    The only one I can think of that's ultra famous, covers all generations is loved as an absolute national treasure while carrying a lot of sway is David Attenborough

    Can't see him getting involved though.
    No and his brother was the epitome of the social democrat luvvie.

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Or to put it another way........

    Given all the dire consequences the EU will apparently visit on us if we Brexit, the payments to Brussels are basically a protection racket in the form of foreign aid.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    On moneygoround.eu the figure works our as about £6 billion, or €117 percapita:

    http://money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

    Of course if you do not allow the EU expenditure on farming, conservation regional development or universities that comes back then you get to a bigger figure. It does mean that that spending will have to be cut so the money is spent on our NHS. Don't be surprised if the farmers, regions and universities are unhappy at their drop in income and campaign for Remain
    Moneygoround.eu is wrong. Indeed the EU in general is a very poor place to go to try and find out how much we pay them. For example they always quote the UK contribution as being the basic amount we pay without taking into acocunt the VAT receipts we give them which accounts for an approx additional £2 billion a year net.

    For a proper number you should always look at the Pink Book out in October.

    For 2014 the net figure paid to the EU was around £9.6 billion. Gross after the rebate was around £15billion.

    For 2015 the net figure is around £8.5 billion although that is currently an estimate. In addition I am not clear if it includes the additional £1.7 billion that Osborne paid in which case the net figure might be as much as £10.2 billion. We won't know the exact figure until October.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
    I should be working for Fullfact :-)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Pulpstar said:

    Is it Elton John ?
    No, it's probably Daenerys Targaryen and a breathless dragon or two. ;)
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MikeK said:

    No, it's probably Daenerys Targaryen and a breathless dragon or two. ;)
    I know who it is *palm forehead*

    Harry Potter.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Before I retire to bed in a few minutes, I'd like to say that its a poor show that many on PB would like to see Great Britain disappear and subsumed in the amorphous mass of the EU.

    No pride! No honour! No courage! Just sleazy self interest, which in the end will prove to be a delusion.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    Moses_ said:

    I know who it is *palm forehead*

    Harry Potter.
    Not surprising given that Peter Mandleson is Lord Voldemort. :-)

    I am thinking more along the lines of George Osborne as Grima Wormtongue and Michael Gove as Eomer, driven from his father's hall by the lies of the advisor who is in secret league with Saruman (Jean-Claude Juncker).
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185
    MikeK said:

    Before I retire to bed in a few minutes, I'd like to say that its a poor show that many on PB would like to see Great Britain disappear and subsumed in the amorphous mass of the EU.

    I don't see voting Remain as leading to that end but I may have miss read others comments. If we had better leaders then one day we might be running the show like Germany does now but that can never happen with the Conservatives in power simply because of their internal problems.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    MikeK said:

    Before I retire to bed in a few minutes, I'd like to say that its a poor show that many on PB would like to see Great Britain disappear and subsumed in the amorphous mass of the EU.

    No pride! No honour! No courage! Just sleazy self interest, which in the end will prove to be a delusion.

    Straw man.

    Which REMAINer has posted such nonsense?

    If you won't engage your opponent in arguments don't be surprised when voters ignore you.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016
    I see the discussion hasn't moved on one jot, both sides still throwing made up figures at each other. Have fun!
    SeanT said:

    This site is teetering, fatally, on the farcical. It's not the fact that you are constantly shilling for REMAIN - that's annoying but fair, OGH is a europhile, a Lib Dem, his deputies and writers ostly feel the same - but the endless drivel you spout is simply incorrect.

    If LEAVE was really as hopeless and helpless as you endlessly claim, then REMAIN would now be out of sight in the polling. But it's MOE Dead Heat.

    Pretty much.
  • Latest Betfair GOP Nominee back odds:

    Trump shortens further to 1.61, Cruz steady at 3.7, Kasich weakens at 16.5, Ryan seemingly out of it at 80.

    It looks as if we are finally close to end game.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection Countdown

    1111 seconds
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    BBC Breakfast numpties (Dan Walker & Louise Minchin) have both just said that yesterday George Osborne warned that Brexit would cost each family £4,300 every year.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Worth tuning in to Today on R4 at 8.10:

    0810

    Michael Gove will set out his vision today for why the UK should leave the EU. Speaking on the programme is Michael Gove, justice secretary and co-convenor on the Vote Leave Campaign Committee.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    BBC Breakfast numpties (Dan Walker & Louise Minchin) have both just said that yesterday George Osborne warned that Brexit would cost each family £4,300 every year.

    Can't edit that now; I'd got the impression from some of the comments on here that the figure wasn't an annual cost, but have just read a report that it was. Coffee will start working soon..
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I thought this fantasy figure was the projected 'loss' in 2030. What happens in between?

    It's complete nonsense either way, I've yet to see anyone take it seriously.

    Can't edit that now; I'd got the impression from some of the comments on here that the figure wasn't an annual cost, but have just read a report that it was. Coffee will start working soon..
This discussion has been closed.