SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
On topic, I wonder if this is because people still, falsely, have the perception that OAPs are poor and therefore must be closer to Labour. In short the view that Labour would look after them better is based on a false understanding of their current status. Actual pensioners of course know the reality which is why they vote tory.
What it does show, as TSE points out, is that all the attempts at modernising, centralising, third ways, creating the new etc, have very little impact on peoples' basic perceptions. If the Tories were to come second in Scotland, for example, what's the betting that the perception that Labour is closer to Scotland and the north would not change 1 iota?
There is a lot of self interest in your stance, that's fine, that applies to us all. This unfettered, 500 million etc etc may be true but it comes at a cost, membership fees of £millions a day (arguable in total but a fact nonetheless) paid by ordinary taxpayers. Where do you think that £1.7bn, that Cameron refused to pay but did anyway, comes from?
As a labour voter, surely you see that as unfair - the little people propping up businesses for their wealthy owners? Because that is precisely what is happening.
For as lobg as Jezza and co are in charge of Labour I am not a Labour voter.
I am no lover of the EU, my judgement, though, is that we are better off in than out. Of course, there is a level of self-interest, but my guess is that on a personal level I'd be far less sffected by Brexit than most people. I can afford for it to turn out to be a very bad miscalculation.
On topic, I wonder if this is because people still, falsely, have the perception that OAPs are poor and therefore must be closer to Labour. In short the view that Labour would look after them better is based on a false understanding of their current status. Actual pensioners of course know the reality which is why they vote tory.
What it does show, as TSE points out, is that all the attempts at modernising, centralising, third ways, creating the new etc, have very little impact on peoples' basic perceptions. If the Tories were to come second in Scotland, for example, what's the betting that the perception that Labour is closer to Scotland and the north would not change 1 iota?
Good points. Perceptions seem remarkably impervious to change at this very basic level.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
Unionists are about 35% of the electorate, Nationalists about 25%. It's the 40% in between who are to play for.
Alex Massive had an article about how he would have to consider his options regarding independence in the case of a Leave vote
55% voted NO and 45% voted YES. Those are the numbers you need to work with.
Unlike the established political parties, and their leaders, most ordinary people simply don't have that level of passion for the EU over their affinity to their country, or countries if you like, and certainly not enough to flip a referendum.
What might lead to a 2nd independence referendum, or not, is just how much of a success a post Brexit UK made of itself. So the jury would initially be out. And it would important to put Scotland's needs at the heart of the exit negotiations.
I suspect that, ultimately, as always, it would come down to the economics of the matter.
And Alex Massie barely qualifies as a talking head. He was almost embarrassed and apologetic about voting NO last time.
DavidL was querying Corbyn's lodger's rent the other day and I said I bet that it was less than market rates. More details here, though not an exact figure:
My guess is that the rent is basically zero but the lodger chips in for utilities and does some shopping sometimes, and that they don't bother to work it out as it's way less than the threshold - much like common arrangements with adult kids still at home. That's the sort of arrangement that I'd expect from knowing the man - he doesn't live in the "how much can I get out of this bloke?" worldview at all. It's possible to argue that top politicians should, because they'd arguably be more like most people, but I find it attractive that he doesn't.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
How many of those nations you visited were members of the EU? Presumably they could cope outside so why couldn't we?
Of course we could cope. But we should be aiming for higher than that, shouldn't we?
Precisely. Which is just why we should Leave.
We should be aiming to be a hugely successful global trading nation, with the world as our oyster.
Not just accept the straitjacket of remaining a medium-sized European one.
Dealing with the likes of Amazon and Google on our own?
You think the world's fifth largest economy can't get terms?
Another Remainder wimp....
Deluded. We’ve not done that well with them yet, have we?
I am relatively relaxed about pooling sovereignty - the EU cannot prevent us from having this referendum, which shows that ultimately we are in charge.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
I'm puzzled, you're clearly a clever bloke involved in a great company, returning from another successful business trip abroad you immediately appear to think:
Thank God for the EU.
Your obvious success has zero to do with EU politicians and bureaucrats, they are a hindrance not a help, you simply don't need them.
Not really. What I think is that the single market is a great opportunity and a wonderful thing to be a part of from a business perspective, while being an EU member state is no real hindrance to trading elsewhere. We do have export problems in the UK, but they have largely been created by ourselves over a long period of time.
I am relatively relaxed about pooling sovereignty - the EU cannot prevent us from having this referendum, which shows that ultimately we are in charge.
The price we'd pay for significantly reducing EU migration is too high in my opinion: less consumer choice, higher prices and significantly reduced access to the single market.
I don't love the EU as an institution, I think the Brussels gravy train is obscene; but overall I'd rather be on the inside with a chance to do something about it, than on the outside with no influence and reduced access.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
On topic, I wonder if this is because people still, falsely, have the perception that OAPs are poor and therefore must be closer to Labour. In short the view that Labour would look after them better is based on a false understanding of their current status. Actual pensioners of course know the reality which is why they vote tory.
What it does show, as TSE points out, is that all the attempts at modernising, centralising, third ways, creating the new etc, have very little impact on peoples' basic perceptions. If the Tories were to come second in Scotland, for example, what's the betting that the perception that Labour is closer to Scotland and the north would not change 1 iota?
While there are quite a lot of wealthy elderly (though owning a house is not very liquid wealth) there are also many just scraping by. In addition to the financial aspects, the elderly are much the biggest users of NHS and social care, so the polling may reflect this Labours emphasis on this.
It does show that at least in peoples perceptions that the elderly are not automatically to be filled in the blue column.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
How many of those nations you visited were members of the EU? Presumably they could cope outside so why couldn't we?
Quite.
Without knowing it SO and Old King Cole make an interesting point: 55% of our trade (and its growing) is now outside the EU, which is a huge economic and political union right on our doorstep.
Think how much more our trade could grow globally if we had the tools and policies to make the most of it?
The business my son works with is global and has many customers within the EU. Some of the kit they use is sourced from within other EU states. Because of where he lives and what he does he mixes with people from all over the world, and feels that the opportunities for his children will be much greater in Europe .... if they don’t stay in Asia ..... than in, say Australia or even the US.
That is not true. Europe accounts (and will continue to account) for an ever declining percentage of our global trade.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
I'm puzzled, you're clearly a clever bloke involved in a great company, returning from another successful business trip abroad you immediately appear to think:
Thank God for the EU.
Your obvious success has zero to do with EU politicians and bureaucrats, they are a hindrance not a help, you simply don't need them.
The price we'd pay for significantly reducing EU migration is too high in my opinion: less consumer choice, higher prices and significantly reduced access to the single market.
I don't love the EU as an institution, I think the Brussels gravy train is obscene; but overall I'd rather be on the inside with a chance to do something about it, than on the outside with no influence and reduced access.
Agree - and with your points on exports too ""The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves....."
Apart from anything else, as LEAVE are giving the government carte blanche in any renegotiation I suspect we won't end up with control of EU migration.
On topic, I wonder if this is because people still, falsely, have the perception that OAPs are poor and therefore must be closer to Labour. In short the view that Labour would look after them better is based on a false understanding of their current status. Actual pensioners of course know the reality which is why they vote tory.
What it does show, as TSE points out, is that all the attempts at modernising, centralising, third ways, creating the new etc, have very little impact on peoples' basic perceptions. If the Tories were to come second in Scotland, for example, what's the betting that the perception that Labour is closer to Scotland and the north would not change 1 iota?
Do we have any data that shows how pensioners fare. I would imagine lots of people would be on state pension only and that would be a pittance. I imagine more will be on lower incomes but would be interested to know reality.
I hosted a Vote Leave event yesterday, 50 or so there paying £10. The speakers were Craig McKinlay of South Thanet fame, he was very good, and Brendan Chilton of Labour Leave who I'd met before, a top class bloke. Interestingly he joked about Kim Jong Corbyn and his conversion on the road to Brussels.
He said that Corbyn has been anti EU for years and most of Labour MPs are ambivalent, but within the PLP there is a hardcore of Blairites completely PRO and the thinking is it was easier for Corbyn to toe their line without any enthusiasm.
Virtually everybody went off with bundles of leaflets to deliver, mainly 60 years +, as McKinlay pointed out, this won't be about polls it will be about who votes and we all know who does.
Not surprised your event comprised mainly 60+. nothing wrong with over 60s of course but isn't it a bit ironic that that in a momentous referendum about the country's economic long-term future Leave are relying on OAPs to win it for them.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
I don't think that there is any doubt that a fall of SNP support on the regional list would be taken as evidence of "peak SNP" so to that extent you are right but the fact is that the huge success the SNP will have at constituency level means that the regional list votes will produce very few additional MSPs. Its an odd system. If we are to have top up MSPs to reflect shares of the vote I don't see why we can't just vote once and then do it nationally.
On thread topic. "Older people" sound like a disadvantaged group - they're old, OMG! People associate the disadvantaged with Labour, as well as the trade unions who fund Labour, while they associate the advantaged with the Conservatives.
Off topic. How is Britain going to be a strong mercantile masculine maritime trading nation after LEAVE if the LEAVErs promise tariffs on vital industrial inputs like steel?
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I am not sure it can be so easily discounted. We could very well end up outside the EU as rUK That should be taken into account. Some might like that outcome, but it is a very different future.
Hard as it is for some to comprehend, there are 'Unionists' (eg Alex Massie, Hugo Rifkind, Chris Deerin) for whom membership of the EU is an integral part of their Unionism, though doubtless they'll be consigned to the sinkhole of liberal, metropolitan elitism. It's quite possible that in Scotland Remain in the EU will win more handsomely than did Remain in the UK, albeit on a lower turnout.
If the scenario of rUK voting Leave and Scotland voting Remain does transpire, it'll certainly be entertaining to see Brexiteers break off from their 'Britain has spoken, the people will not be bullied' schtick to tell Scots that despite them voting Remain by a greater margin and on a proportionally greater turnout, they should shut up and get on with it. That sort of stuff always goes down well.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
How many of those nations you visited were members of the EU? Presumably they could cope outside so why couldn't we?
Asia isn't Europe.
Given SO was there, as a representative of a company from a nation within the EU (I'm assuming), it is reasonable to assume (again) companies from other such countries were invited.
One of my sons spends his life successfully selling UK communication equipment to private companies, and governments in the Asia/Pacific region. He certainly doesn’t feel that EU membership is in any way restrictive, and hopes his mother & I vote to Remain. Which isn’t a problem! (He lives in SE Asia & has been out of UK too long, I think, to have a vote)
15 years away is currently the limit to get a vote but I understand that is being challenged to give all UK citizens a vote, though it is unlikely to succeed due to time constraints now.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
I don't think that there is any doubt that a fall of SNP support on the regional list would be taken as evidence of "peak SNP" so to that extent you are right but the fact is that the huge success the SNP will have at constituency level means that the regional list votes will produce very few additional MSPs. Its an odd system. If we are to have top up MSPs to reflect shares of the vote I don't see why we can't just vote once and then do it nationally.
I agree it is not a great system at all but it was thought up by Labour so understandable.
It's quite alarming how many Vote Leavers on PB are like @Richard_Tyndall, who in their heart of hearts have already given up on the referendum, and give the win to Remain. To call people bigots because they have strong views on particular parts of the Leave argument, shows that in reality the defeatism in these people is very potent.
No Mike, You misunderstand me and I can see why. I think you should read the whole thread.
I do believe we have a very good chance of winning. I couched my reply to Innocent in the way I did because that was the way his point was phrased.
And I can't think of a better word than bigot to describe someone who believes all opposition to the EU must be based on racism - which is the very clear claim Innocent was making.
If the scenario of rUK voting Leave and Scotland voting Remain does transpire, it'll certainly be entertaining to see Brexiteers break off from their 'Britain has spoken, the people will not be bullied' schtick to tell Scots that despite them voting Remain by a greater margin and a proportionally greater turnout, they should shut up and get on with it. That sort of stuff always goes down well.
On the contrary, you should leave the UK and make your own arrangements... for some reason you don't seem to have managed it yet
It's quite alarming how many Vote Leavers on PB are like @Richard_Tyndall, who in their heart of hearts have already given up on the referendum, and give the win to Remain. To call people bigots because they have strong views on particular parts of the Leave argument, shows that in reality the defeatism in these people is very potent.
No Mike, You misunderstand me and I can see why. I think you should read the whole thread.
I do believe we have a very good chance of winning. I couched my reply to Innocent in the way I did because that was the way his point was phrased.
And I can't think of a better word than bigot to describe someone who believes all opposition to the EU must be based on racism - which is the very clear claim Innocent was making.
Shouting Racist is entirely self-defeating as it means you are not taking the time to properly understand your opponent's views. The only person that benefits from that is your opponent.
I hosted a Vote Leave event yesterday, 50 or so there paying £10. The speakers were Craig McKinlay of South Thanet fame, he was very good, and Brendan Chilton of Labour Leave who I'd met before, a top class bloke. Interestingly he joked about Kim Jong Corbyn and his conversion on the road to Brussels.
He said that Corbyn has been anti EU for years and most of Labour MPs are ambivalent, but within the PLP there is a hardcore of Blairites completely PRO and the thinking is it was easier for Corbyn to toe their line without any enthusiasm.
Virtually everybody went off with bundles of leaflets to deliver, mainly 60 years +, as McKinlay pointed out, this won't be about polls it will be about who votes and we all know who does.
Not surprised your event comprised mainly 60+. nothing wrong with over 60s of course but isn't it a bit ironic that that in a momentous referendum about the country's economic long-term future Leave are relying on OAPs to win it for them.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
No relied on pensioners to win it for them in the SindyRef. Decisions are made by those who vote.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
Unionists are about 35% of the electorate, Nationalists about 25%. It's the 40% in between who are to play for.
Alex Massive had an article about how he would have to consider his options regarding independence in the case of a Leave vote
55% voted NO and 45% voted YES. Those are the numbers you need to work with.
Unlike the established political parties, and their leaders, most ordinary people simply don't have that level of passion for the EU over their affinity to their country, or countries if you like, and certainly not enough to flip a referendum.
What might lead to a 2nd independence referendum, or not, is just how much of a success a post Brexit UK made of itself. So the jury would initially be out. And it would important to put Scotland's needs at the heart of the exit negotiations.
I suspect that, ultimately, as always, it would come down to the economics of the matter.
And Alex Massie barely qualifies as a talking head. He was almost embarrassed and apologetic about voting NO last time.
And some of those 55% voted No due to economic concerns. They are now being told economic Armageddon will occur if they leave the EU.
SouthamObserver - I don't understand where Corbyn has changed the essence of the Labour movement that you no longer vote Labour? The previous Labour government seemed to me a bunch of entriests whose entire interest was to make money. Isn't Corbyn a better man than the £2000 suited Miliband brothers? I hated the middle class Labour of Miliband but could see myself voting for Corbyn.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I am not sure it can be so easily discounted. We could very well end up outside the EU as rUK That should be taken into account. Some might like that outcome, but it is a very different future.
Hard as it is for some to comprehend, there are 'Unionists' (eg Alex Massie, Hugo Rifkind, Chris Deerin) for whom membership of the EU is an integral part of their Unionism, though doubtless they'll be consigned to the sinkhole of liberal, metropolitan elitism. It's quite possible that in Scotland Remain in the EU will win more handsomely than did Remain in the UK, albeit on a lower turnout.
If the scenario of rUK voting Leave and Scotland voting Remain does transpire, it'll certainly be entertaining to see Brexiteers break off from their 'Britain has spoken, the people will not be bullied' schtick to tell Scots that despite them voting Remain by a greater margin and on a proportionally greater turnout, they should shut up and get on with it. That sort of stuff always goes down well.
If the UK does leave the EU it will clearly be a very different country to the one Scots voted to remain part of. I can see how it would change a lot of views. The challenge for the SNP, though, will still be the economic case. If Scotland's biggest trading partner by far is outside the EU, the practical dangers of a break would surely be even greater. But maybe they would also become more palatable: short and medium term pain in return for longer term gain. I could see how that might work.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Shhh! He's too busy insulting people to work that out for himself - lets leave it until after the election to explain it....
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
I hosted a Vote Leave event yesterday, 50 or so there paying £10. The speakers were Craig McKinlay of South Thanet fame, he was very good, and Brendan Chilton of Labour Leave who I'd met before, a top class bloke. Interestingly he joked about Kim Jong Corbyn and his conversion on the road to Brussels.
He said that Corbyn has been anti EU for years and most of Labour MPs are ambivalent, but within the PLP there is a hardcore of Blairites completely PRO and the thinking is it was easier for Corbyn to toe their line without any enthusiasm.
Virtually everybody went off with bundles of leaflets to deliver, mainly 60 years +, as McKinlay pointed out, this won't be about polls it will be about who votes and we all know who does.
Not surprised your event comprised mainly 60+. nothing wrong with over 60s of course but isn't it a bit ironic that that in a momentous referendum about the country's economic long-term future Leave are relying on OAPs to win it for them.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
Good spin.
The reality is those who care most will vote, nobody knows who that will be. But you are incapable of making a positive case for Remain, which will be to your detriment I believe.
We did two events in Asia last week - both very well attended - and had a series of successful meetings with big, local companies in Taiwan and Korea, as well as with government officials. This was mainly organised out of our Hong Kong office, which took about a day to set up - if that. I am now back in the UK, lagged to pieces and confused about how the EU is restricting the ability of British companies to trade with the rest of the world.
How many of those nations you visited were members of the EU? Presumably they could cope outside so why couldn't we?
Quite.
Without knowing it SO and Old King Cole make an interesting point: 55% of our trade (and its growing) is now outside the EU, which is a huge economic and political union right on our doorstep.
Think how much more our trade could grow globally if we had the tools and policies to make the most of it?
Your argument might be persuasive if other EU member states struggled to do business outside the EU. But many do a lot better than we do. The vast majority of our export woes are self-inflicted.
Actually this is wrong on every level.
According to the EU, only the UK and Malta export more to the rest of the world than to the rest of the EU. And whilst the RoW has been growing as a percentage of our exports over the last decade, it has been falling for the rest of the EU. Extra-EU trade is consistently less important for every EU country except the UK and Malta than Intra-EU trade.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
Unionists are about 35% of the electorate, Nationalists about 25%. It's the 40% in between who are to play for.
Alex Massive had an article about how he would have to consider his options regarding independence in the case of a Leave vote
55% voted NO and 45% voted YES. Those are the numbers you need to work with.
Unlike the established political parties, and their leaders, most ordinary people simply don't have that level of passion for the EU over their affinity to their country, or countries if you like, and certainly not enough to flip a referendum.
What might lead to a 2nd independence referendum, or not, is just how much of a success a post Brexit UK made of itself. So the jury would initially be out. And it would important to put Scotland's needs at the heart of the exit negotiations.
I suspect that, ultimately, as always, it would come down to the economics of the matter.
And Alex Massie barely qualifies as a talking head. He was almost embarrassed and apologetic about voting NO last time.
And some of those 55% voted No due to economic concerns. They are now being told economic Armageddon will occur if they leave the EU.
SouthamObserver - I don't understand where Corbyn has changed the essence of the Labour movement that you no longer vote Labour? The previous Labour government seemed to me a bunch of entriests whose entire interest was to make money. Isn't Corbyn a better man than the £2000 suited Miliband brothers? I hated the middle class Labour of Miliband but could see myself voting for Corbyn.
Corbyn and McDonnell - and their advisers - hold views that I find repellant and nonsensical. Making money is not a bad thing. It's how you generate the tax revenues that pay for redistributive policies and better public services. What's more, Corbyn is clearly incapable of leadership. He can't even fill out a tax return.
SouthamObserver - I don't understand where Corbyn has changed the essence of the Labour movement that you no longer vote Labour? The previous Labour government seemed to me a bunch of entriests whose entire interest was to make money. Isn't Corbyn a better man than the £2000 suited Miliband brothers? I hated the middle class Labour of Miliband but could see myself voting for Corbyn.
The chances of me voting Labour are minimal but there's more chance of me voting for Corbyn than David Miliband who is everything I loathe about the Labour party.
Shouting Racist is entirely self-defeating as it means you are not taking the time to properly understand your opponent's views. The only person that benefits from that is your opponent.
Thanks SO. I agree. It is a shame Innocent hasn't learnt that lesson.
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
Scotland has a massive task on its hands creating a viable economy that has a tax base that is capable of sustaining its current level of services. The GERS numbers were horrific for Scotland and in or out of the EU or in or out of the UK our political class must focus on the implications of them like a laser.
Independence for Scotland is very closely tied up with having a successful economy but so is success in the Union. All parties need to find ways to increase the tax base to a level that supports the services our population needs. I very much hope that all of them get that and that that is the focus of the next Parliament. In fairness, I think John Swinney, for one, does. Labour, of course, has nothing useful to say about this other than increase the tax rate.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Oh dear, is the Tourette Turnip hung over, or not firing on all cylinders?
Since you evidently don't understand how your electoral system works, I do hope you do vote both votes for the SNP
How low can Tories stoop, you should not assume people have the same habits with alcohol as one's self. Ex - Scottish Tory drones should realise how boring their constant whinging is, take some lessons from a real person. If their were more Scottish Tories like Davidl rather than bitter twisted nonenties perhaps they would not be a biusted flush.
A few days ago, senior officials in the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign awoke to find an email from Ryan Coetzee, the pugnacious South African director of strategy, sitting in their inboxes. 'Ignore all the noises off telling us to drop risk. We are sticking rigidly to our 50:50 strategy.'
The '50:50 strategy' is a simple one. For every message voters receive describing the sunlit uplands of life within the EU, they will also receive one that chills them to the bone.
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Very strong remainer. She is a Cameroon through and through. Sometimes without the tact but none the worse for that.
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
I think they are just calling it as they see it. To be honest it would probably serve their cause better if they could persuade the country that voting Leave was voting to get rid of Cameron but the fact that they are not playing that card shows me that they genuinely believe Cameron can and should stay. In spite of my occasional bouts of doubt and disdain for Cameron over the EU question it is a view I share.
If the UK does leave the EU it will clearly be a very different country to the one Scots voted to remain part of...
I what way will we be a very different country? We will have changed back to a system of government more accountable to the people and, perhaps, changed our trading arrangements with some other states. Will that make us a very different country? I don't think so.
In those circumstances if the Scots prefer to leave the UK and apply for membership of the EU then that is a matter for them and, as I always, I will wish them well.
A few days ago, senior officials in the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign awoke to find an email from Ryan Coetzee, the pugnacious South African director of strategy, sitting in their inboxes. 'Ignore all the noises off telling us to drop risk. We are sticking rigidly to our 50:50 strategy.'
The '50:50 strategy' is a simple one. For every message voters receive describing the sunlit uplands of life within the EU, they will also receive one that chills them to the bone.
This gives me hope. I wonder if he'll be daring to run naked somewhere.
I found this baffling, as there have been no messages about 'sunlit uplands' at all. Indeed, I would say the BSE strategy has been more like 100:0 to 'Fear'.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
Curtice said: “That would appear to imply that under this scenario many a list vote for the SNP would be ‘wasted’, that is it would fail to contribute towards the election of a MSP.
“Indeed, under our scenario that proves to be case for any regional list vote cast for the SNP anywhere other than in the Highland and Islands region, the only region where the party is projected to win any list seats.
“That this situation could arise in a number of regions, given the SNP’s current standing in the polls, has led to speculation that nationalist supporters might be wise on the second ballot to vote tactically for a different party, such as the Greens or the left-wing RISE grouping, both of which also support independence.
If the UK does leave the EU it will clearly be a very different country to the one Scots voted to remain part of...
I what way will we be a very different country? We will have changed back to a system of government more accountable to the people and, perhaps, changed our trading arrangements with some other states. Will that make us a very different country? I don't think so.
In those circumstances if the Scots prefer to leave the UK and apply for membership of the EU then that is a matter for them and, as I always, I will wish them well.
Frankly, if the EU means more to Scots than than the UK then the union is finished anyway. But I doubt that is the case.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Oh dear, is the Tourette Turnip hung over, or not firing on all cylinders?
Since you evidently don't understand how your electoral system works, I do hope you do vote both votes for the SNP
How low can Tories stoop, you should not assume people have the same habits with alcohol as one's self. Ex - Scottish Tory drones should realise how boring their constant whinging is, take some lessons from a real person. If their were more Scottish Tories like Davidl rather than bitter twisted nonenties perhaps they would not be a biusted flush.
So you are going 2 votes SNP. Good-oh! I wonder which unionist you'll let in?
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Very strong remainer. She is a Cameroon through and through. Sometimes without the tact but none the worse for that.
David, hence the Tories major problem, as long as we have London sockpuppets running the show the Tories will go nowhere. I cannot believe other than vested self interests , why they have not chosen to become a Scottish party. They prefer to be run by London and stay as a minor fringe party, very strange indeed in today's changed political environment.
It does amuse me how for years europhiles have urged us to 'stop banging on about Europe', and been very happy for the man on the street not to care a jot, but now this referendum is on it's suddenly become absolutely central to our nation's successful future. If people don't turn out, it will be their own fault.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
If you are for independence it is utter folly to imagine that voting anything other than SNP can advance the case. The rag tag nutters of RISE , remnants of Tommy's SSP etc and some crazy Green utopians being MSP's will not do anything to further independence. Unionists would be rolling in the aisles.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Doesn't the premise make sense though?
It makes sense if you can identify which pro-independent voice has a chance of winning. In Glasgow we'll have Rise, the Greens and Sheridan's Solidarity to choose from. I'll look forward to the PB Scotch psephologists telling me which one to go for.
I hosted a Vote Leave event yesterday, 50 or so there paying £10. The speakers were Craig McKinlay of South Thanet fame, he was very good, and Brendan Chilton of Labour Leave who I'd met before, a top class bloke. Interestingly he joked about Kim Jong Corbyn and his conversion on the road to Brussels.
He said that Corbyn has been anti EU for years and most of Labour MPs are ambivalent, but within the PLP there is a hardcore of Blairites completely PRO and the thinking is it was easier for Corbyn to toe their line without any enthusiasm.
Virtually everybody went off with bundles of leaflets to deliver, mainly 60 years +, as McKinlay pointed out, this won't be about polls it will be about who votes and we all know who does.
Not surprised your event comprised mainly 60+. nothing wrong with over 60s of course but isn't it a bit ironic that that in a momentous referendum about the country's economic long-term future Leave are relying on OAPs to win it for them.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
No relied on pensioners to win it for them in the SindyRef. Decisions are made by those who vote.
I wasn't disputing that I was simply pointing out that it is depressing that Leave are desperate for a low turnout on such an important issue because it is the only way they can win.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Doesn't the premise make sense though?
No it does not , the only party that can and will do anything for independence is the SNP. Until independence is won a vote against the SNP is a vote against independence. Once it happens then new parties will arise , maybe even a real Conservative one, and people can vote for what they want.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Very strong remainer. She is a Cameroon through and through. Sometimes without the tact but none the worse for that.
David, hence the Tories major problem, as long as we have London sockpuppets running the show the Tories will go nowhere. I cannot believe other than vested self interests , why they have not chosen to become a Scottish party. They prefer to be run by London and stay as a minor fringe party, very strange indeed in today's changed political environment.
Personally I would rename the party as the Unionist party and move to a CDU associate status with the UK Conservative party. It is a pity this did not happen before the election.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Remain.
Given UKIP barely register in Scotland what where is the Leave campaign leadership coming from?
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
If you are for independence it is utter folly to imagine that voting anything other than SNP can advance the case. The rag tag nutters of RISE , remnants of Tommy's SSP etc and some crazy Green utopians being MSP's will not do anything to further independence. Unionists would be rolling in the aisles.
On reflection you are right. In my mind Patrick Harvie has supplanted even Alec Salmond as the most annoying man in Scottish politics.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Oh dear, is the Tourette Turnip hung over, or not firing on all cylinders?
Since you evidently don't understand how your electoral system works, I do hope you do vote both votes for the SNP
How low can Tories stoop, you should not assume people have the same habits with alcohol as one's self. Ex - Scottish Tory drones should realise how boring their constant whinging is, take some lessons from a real person. If their were more Scottish Tories like Davidl rather than bitter twisted nonenties perhaps they would not be a biusted flush.
So you are going 2 votes SNP. Good-oh! I wonder which unionist you'll let in?
Do you actually look at the facts, or do you just believe CCHQ propaganda you are fed. If people followed your implied methodology there would never have been a referendum as the SNP would not have had a majority. Rather an SNP majority government and a chance of independence than a few less unionists with some halfwitted nutters and no chance whatsoever.
A few days ago, senior officials in the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign awoke to find an email from Ryan Coetzee, the pugnacious South African director of strategy, sitting in their inboxes. 'Ignore all the noises off telling us to drop risk. We are sticking rigidly to our 50:50 strategy.'
The '50:50 strategy' is a simple one. For every message voters receive describing the sunlit uplands of life within the EU, they will also receive one that chills them to the bone.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Remain.
Given UKIP barely register in Scotland what where is the Leave campaign leadership coming from?
Tom Harris & Jim Sillars are the vaguely respectable face of McLeave. I believe they've given UKIP the bum's rush which will cruelly restrict entertainment potential.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
If you are for independence it is utter folly to imagine that voting anything other than SNP can advance the case. The rag tag nutters of RISE , remnants of Tommy's SSP etc and some crazy Green utopians being MSP's will not do anything to further independence. Unionists would be rolling in the aisles.
On reflection you are right. In my mind Patrick Harvey has supplanted even Alec Salmond as the most annoying man in Scottish politics.
Annoying thing is the amount of airtime he gets given the sparse support and his ideas get ever more crazy, he would have us back using horses and carts in a heartbeat. last week he was saying he would be happy getting rid of all the rich people from the country, what a bozo.
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
I think they are just calling it as they see it. To be honest it would probably serve their cause better if they could persuade the country that voting Leave was voting to get rid of Cameron but the fact that they are not playing that card shows me that they genuinely believe Cameron can and should stay. In spite of my occasional bouts of doubt and disdain for Cameron over the EU question it is a view I share.
Whatever they think in private, they cannot publicly say Cameron's job is on the line. They are members of the government, after all; or aspire to be, in Boris's case. In practice, how on earth could Cameron lead exit negotiations when he doesn't want to leave? It would be a recipe for permanent friction, at the very least. His authority would be utterly shot - both inside Parliament and with EU member states.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Very strong remainer. She is a Cameroon through and through. Sometimes without the tact but none the worse for that.
David, hence the Tories major problem, as long as we have London sockpuppets running the show the Tories will go nowhere. I cannot believe other than vested self interests , why they have not chosen to become a Scottish party. They prefer to be run by London and stay as a minor fringe party, very strange indeed in today's changed political environment.
Personally I would rename the party as the Unionist party and move to a CDU associate status with the UK Conservative party. It is a pity this did not happen before the election.
Yes Murdo had the right idea , just unfortunate he was the wrong person. Would have been good move and he could have been moved on later but far too much London influence for him to have won. Ruth was brought in and hand picked by the establishment to make sure the boat was not rocked. I just cannot understand why the Tories vote to stay mediocre, must be a reason behind it.
I hosted a Vote Leave event yesterday, 50 or so there paying £10. The speakers were Craig McKinlay of South Thanet fame, he was very good, and Brendan Chilton of Labour Leave who I'd met before, a top class bloke. Interestingly he joked about Kim Jong Corbyn and his conversion on the road to Brussels.
He said that Corbyn has been anti EU for years and most of Labour MPs are ambivalent, but within the PLP there is a hardcore of Blairites completely PRO and the thinking is it was easier for Corbyn to toe their line without any enthusiasm.
Virtually everybody went off with bundles of leaflets to deliver, mainly 60 years +, as McKinlay pointed out, this won't be about polls it will be about who votes and we all know who does.
Not surprised your event comprised mainly 60+. nothing wrong with over 60s of course but isn't it a bit ironic that that in a momentous referendum about the country's economic long-term future Leave are relying on OAPs to win it for them.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
Good spin.
The reality is those who care most will vote, nobody knows who that will be. But you are incapable of making a positive case for Remain, which will be to your detriment I believe.
Which bit of the spin do you actually disagree with?
The positive case that Remain will make is simply that we are economically better off within the EU than not. The campaign has barely got off the ground yet, none of the solidly Remain parties will get going till after the May elections. Brexit has been a right-wing wet dream for decades, of course they are going to make all the early running, they have been waiting years for this moment.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
Curtice said: “That would appear to imply that under this scenario many a list vote for the SNP would be ‘wasted’, that is it would fail to contribute towards the election of a MSP.
“Indeed, under our scenario that proves to be case for any regional list vote cast for the SNP anywhere other than in the Highland and Islands region, the only region where the party is projected to win any list seats.
“That this situation could arise in a number of regions, given the SNP’s current standing in the polls, has led to speculation that nationalist supporters might be wise on the second ballot to vote tactically for a different party, such as the Greens or the left-wing RISE grouping, both of which also support independence.
That might not be far off after a leave vote, perhaps under a Boris premiership.
Show me the Scottish Unionists who will turn, overnight, into Nationalists just because the UK is no longer an EU member? To break a 300 year old Union in these islands for the sake of rekindling a 40 year old economic and political union with an increasingly federalist continent?
They will be more interested in making our future trading relationship work.
It's a myth.
I wouldn't be so sure, I would at least like to see some polling before dismissing it as a myth, If Scotland votes Remain by a large margin (probable) and the UK lurches to a more right wing government then attitudes might well change.
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
Remain.
Given UKIP barely register in Scotland what where is the Leave campaign leadership coming from?
Tom Harris & Jim Sillars are the vaguely respectable face of McLeave. I believe they've given UKIP the bum's rush which will cruelly restrict entertainment potential.
TUD, " vaguely respectable " is very diplomatic. I would have went for bitter hasbeens.
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
Yes. I don't believe them on this, particularly given things have already gotten nasty and they similarly said that wouldn't happen.
SouthamObserver - I don't understand where Corbyn has changed the essence of the Labour movement that you no longer vote Labour? The previous Labour government seemed to me a bunch of entriests whose entire interest was to make money. Isn't Corbyn a better man than the £2000 suited Miliband brothers? I hated the middle class Labour of Miliband but could see myself voting for Corbyn.
Corbyn and McDonnell - and their advisers - hold views that I find repellant and nonsensical. Making money is not a bad thing. It's how you generate the tax revenues that pay for redistributive policies and better public services. What's more, Corbyn is clearly incapable of leadership. He can't even fill out a tax return.
There's nothing wrong with making money per se - my income is over £100K and I duly pay 40% tax on most of it and use the rest unapologetically and privately as I think fit, whether to give it away or spend it on riotous living - I do a bit of both. But making money as a priority in life seems to me an unfortunate life choice, and going out of your way to find devices to avoid paying your share to the community likewise, as I'm sure we agree.
Ideally, on the left we should seek both to maximise national income and to redistribute part of the top half to the bottom half, to even out the variations in fortune which are less our own doing than we like to think. How to do it is obviously a challenge, but if politicians don't even want to do it (as I don't think e.g. Osborne does), they aren't worth considering. If, conversely, they're notably indifferent to accumulating wealth themselves and don't bother to optimise their arrangements (Corbyn paid too much tax, not too little), that's a positive point, and nothing to do with leadership.
But I do think that the left needs competent economic management too, and I'm not sure which aspect of McDonnell's economic approach - balance the books in current spending and borrow at low interest rates for infrastructure investment - you disagree with.
A few days ago, senior officials in the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign awoke to find an email from Ryan Coetzee, the pugnacious South African director of strategy, sitting in their inboxes. 'Ignore all the noises off telling us to drop risk. We are sticking rigidly to our 50:50 strategy.'
The '50:50 strategy' is a simple one. For every message voters receive describing the sunlit uplands of life within the EU, they will also receive one that chills them to the bone.
This gives me hope. I wonder if he'll be daring to run naked somewhere.
I found this baffling, as there have been no messages about 'sunlit uplands' at all. Indeed, I would say the BSE strategy has been more like 100:0 to 'Fear'.
I am sure the Scottish Tories (on course for their best result in years) will heed the welcome advice of the Zoomers on PB about how they could improve their fortunes...
Or not.
The Panelbase survey, conducted for The Sunday Times, reveals that Ruth Davidson’s party is now level pegging with Scottish Labour, led by Kezia Dugdale.
The analysis shows Dugdale’s approval ratings are the worst among Scotland’s five main political leaders.
We have somehow created a political system that works for the middle class, and is against the other 70% of the population. Bournemouth/Poole is an example - it is the drug capital of the UK - why is it impossible to do anything about it? A secondary school in Poole has the 3rd worse results of all secondary schools in England - why? But I get regular emails about recycling.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
Thank you - has he persuaded you to move from "both votes SNP"?
Not at all, as I said anyone interested in Independence has to vote for SNP only till it is won. After that it is a free for all. Currently there are no other Scottish parties I could vote for.
Tories - London only party and against independence Labour - They wrecked Scotland and UK and against independence and Scotland Greens - cuckoo , for independence maybe RISE - extreme left wing nutters , just nutters Others - fringe only , irrelevant some may be for independence , hard to say
Yesterday Boris said that David Cameron will continue as PM post a leave vote and today on Marr both David Davis and Chris Grayling re-affirmed that Ken Clarke was wrong in his statement that David Cameron would be gone within 30 seconds of a leave vote and Chris Grayling went further by saying that his contacts throughout Europe would be invaluable as part of an exit team in negotiations with the EU. Is the leave campaign trying to re-assure the undecided conservatives that it is safe to vote leave and that a civil war will not follow any such vote
I think they are just calling it as they see it. To be honest it would probably serve their cause better if they could persuade the country that voting Leave was voting to get rid of Cameron but the fact that they are not playing that card shows me that they genuinely believe Cameron can and should stay. In spite of my occasional bouts of doubt and disdain for Cameron over the EU question it is a view I share.
Whatever they think in private, they cannot publicly say Cameron's job is on the line. They are members of the government, after all; or aspire to be, in Boris's case. In practice, how on earth could Cameron lead exit negotiations when he doesn't want to leave? It would be a recipe for permanent friction, at the very least. His authority would be utterly shot - both inside Parliament and with EU member states.
It is in vote LEAVE's best interest for the 2/3 or more of voters that do not want Cameron, to believe that voting LEAVE will kick Cameron out because some of them will use that as their main reason to vote LEAVE. The fact that Conservative LEAVE people are saying the opposite is down to party loyalty. Admirable, but not in best interests of LEAVE.
SouthamObserver - I don't understand where Corbyn has changed the essence of the Labour movement that you no longer vote Labour? The previous Labour government seemed to me a bunch of entriests whose entire interest was to make money. Isn't Corbyn a better man than the £2000 suited Miliband brothers? I hated the middle class Labour of Miliband but could see myself voting for Corbyn.
Corbyn and McDonnell - and their advisers - hold views that I find repellant and nonsensical. Making money is not a bad thing. It's how you generate the tax revenues that pay for redistributive policies and better public services. What's more, Corbyn is clearly incapable of leadership. He can't even fill out a tax return.
There's nothing wrong with making money per se - my income is over £100K and I duly pay 40% tax on most of it and use the rest unapologetically and privately as I think fit, whether to give it away or spend it on riotous living - I do a bit of both.
Nick Palmer in riotous living revelation ....
Surely worthy of a thread or two on a quiet post watershed evening ....
The real poor are working age, childless and on either low pay or unemployed. They are particularly troubled if they run their own homes or if they have debts,
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
David, Anybody that does not vote SNP x 2 is not interested in Independence. people may be taken in by these nutters. The time to vote for other parties is when we have independence. Unionists are desperate to try and persuade people to vote other than SNP on their second vote knowing that most people do not understand how it works and so try and get SNP as a minority government. Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
If you read that from the Herald rather than what he actually said I understand why you are mistaken. The Herald article is a bag of lies, misrepresents what Curtice said entirely and is written by the nutters of the ERS, who are virulently anti - SNP and left wing nutters.
Doesn't the premise make sense though?
It is a case of works in theory but not in practice. Due to how the list vote works the voting would have to be supremely well coordinated to get third parties in.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
Curtice said: “That would appear to imply that under this scenario many a list vote for the SNP would be ‘wasted’, that is it would fail to contribute towards the election of a MSP.
“Indeed, under our scenario that proves to be case for any regional list vote cast for the SNP anywhere other than in the Highland and Islands region, the only region where the party is projected to win any list seats.
“That this situation could arise in a number of regions, given the SNP’s current standing in the polls, has led to speculation that nationalist supporters might be wise on the second ballot to vote tactically for a different party, such as the Greens or the left-wing RISE grouping, both of which also support independence.
Thank you - has he persuaded you to move from "both votes SNP"?
I doubt Mr Curtice will be best pleased being misrepresented in that way mind you. He is usually very fair and reports, as he actually did here, facts rather than taking sides. Herald totally out of order.
SUPPORTERS of independence should not give their second vote to the SNP at the Holyrood elections, according to a new report by one of the country's top political scientists.
Malcolm, he is saying that SNP supporters should vote for other independence minded parties like the Greens or that bunch of nutters called RISE to stop Unionist MSPs being elected. Hopefully by far the majority of SNP supporters will have the same response as you.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
Curtice's argument was that by voting SNP twice you'd actually have less of a pro-independence voice in the Scottish Parliament.
Do you have a link to Curtice' article?
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
Thank you - has he persuaded you to move from "both votes SNP"?
Not at all, as I said anyone interested in Independence has to vote for SNP only till it is won. After that it is a free for all. Currently there are no other Scottish parties I could vote for.
Tories - London only party and against independence Labour - They wrecked Scotland and UK and against independence and Scotland Greens - cuckoo , for independence maybe RISE - extreme left wing nutters , just nutters Others - fringe only , irrelevant some may be for independence , hard to say
Fair enough- we shall have to see how it all shakes out (and I certainly don't disagree with your analysis of the Greens or RISE - tho that marmite vs peanut butter PPB is one to cherish)
Comments
What it does show, as TSE points out, is that all the attempts at modernising, centralising, third ways, creating the new etc, have very little impact on peoples' basic perceptions. If the Tories were to come second in Scotland, for example, what's the betting that the perception that Labour is closer to Scotland and the north would not change 1 iota?
I am no lover of the EU, my judgement, though, is that we are better off in than out. Of course, there is a level of self-interest, but my guess is that on a personal level I'd be far less sffected by Brexit than most people. I can afford for it to turn out to be a very bad miscalculation.
Unlike the established political parties, and their leaders, most ordinary people simply don't have that level of passion for the EU over their affinity to their country, or countries if you like, and certainly not enough to flip a referendum.
What might lead to a 2nd independence referendum, or not, is just how much of a success a post Brexit UK made of itself. So the jury would initially be out. And it would important to put Scotland's needs at the heart of the exit negotiations.
I suspect that, ultimately, as always, it would come down to the economics of the matter.
And Alex Massie barely qualifies as a talking head. He was almost embarrassed and apologetic about voting NO last time.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7081659/Gulf-in-fortunes-of-pair-renting-PM-and-Corbyn-homes.html
My guess is that the rent is basically zero but the lodger chips in for utilities and does some shopping sometimes, and that they don't bother to work it out as it's way less than the threshold - much like common arrangements with adult kids still at home. That's the sort of arrangement that I'd expect from knowing the man - he doesn't live in the "how much can I get out of this bloke?" worldview at all. It's possible to argue that top politicians should, because they'd arguably be more like most people, but I find it attractive that he doesn't.
http://order-order.com/2016/04/12/top-eurocrat-time-for-an-eu-ban-on-referenda/
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/12/greens-want-ban-referendums-europe-direct-democracy-threatens-eu/
Unfortunate thing is that their are enough people could be swayed, hence why people like Carlotta are peddling the rubbish they do.
PS: You are being kind just calling RISE nutters and Greens seem to be going same way.
One good thing is that it is even conceivable that the Tories could beat Labour for 2nd place.
It does show that at least in peoples perceptions that the elderly are not automatically to be filled in the blue column.
He should stick to talking about abolishing the NHS on FOX News.
But in ourselves....."
Apart from anything else, as LEAVE are giving the government carte blanche in any renegotiation I suspect we won't end up with control of EU migration.
It is also quite sad that in a referendum that Leave claim is about democracy and sovereignty that they are desperate for a low turnout because that is about the only way they are going to win. Deciding the destiny of the country and Leave are hoping most people under 50 won't vote!.
Off topic. How is Britain going to be a strong mercantile masculine maritime trading nation after LEAVE if the LEAVErs promise tariffs on vital industrial inputs like steel?
If the scenario of rUK voting Leave and Scotland voting Remain does transpire, it'll certainly be entertaining to see Brexiteers break off from their 'Britain has spoken, the people will not be bullied' schtick to tell Scots that despite them voting Remain by a greater margin and on a proportionally greater turnout, they should shut up and get on with it. That sort of stuff always goes down well.
I do believe we have a very good chance of winning. I couched my reply to Innocent in the way I did because that was the way his point was phrased.
And I can't think of a better word than bigot to describe someone who believes all opposition to the EU must be based on racism - which is the very clear claim Innocent was making.
I do believe we have a very good chance of winning. I couched my reply to Innocent in the way I did because that was the way his point was phrased.
And I can't think of a better word than bigot to describe someone who believes all opposition to the EU must be based on racism - which is the very clear claim Innocent was making.
Shouting Racist is entirely self-defeating as it means you are not taking the time to properly understand your opponent's views. The only person that benefits from that is your opponent.
Since you evidently don't understand how your electoral system works, I do hope you do vote both votes for the SNP
Out of interest is Ruth Davidson a Leaver or Remainer?
The reality is those who care most will vote, nobody knows who that will be. But you are incapable of making a positive case for Remain, which will be to your detriment I believe.
According to the EU, only the UK and Malta export more to the rest of the world than to the rest of the EU. And whilst the RoW has been growing as a percentage of our exports over the last decade, it has been falling for the rest of the EU. Extra-EU trade is consistently less important for every EU country except the UK and Malta than Intra-EU trade.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/7224419/6-31032016-BP-EN.pdf
Scotland has a massive task on its hands creating a viable economy that has a tax base that is capable of sustaining its current level of services. The GERS numbers were horrific for Scotland and in or out of the EU or in or out of the UK our political class must focus on the implications of them like a laser.
Independence for Scotland is very closely tied up with having a successful economy but so is success in the Union. All parties need to find ways to increase the tax base to a level that supports the services our population needs. I very much hope that all of them get that and that that is the focus of the next Parliament. In fairness, I think John Swinney, for one, does. Labour, of course, has nothing useful to say about this other than increase the tax rate.
This gives me hope. I wonder if he'll be daring to run naked somewhere.
It did strike me as odd that the Prot would presume to offer voting advice (other than comment on the potential consequences of 'Two Votes SNP' vs "SNP+ AN Other")
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/china-post-race-analysis-2016.html
In those circumstances if the Scots prefer to leave the UK and apply for membership of the EU then that is a matter for them and, as I always, I will wish them well.
I found this baffling, as there have been no messages about 'sunlit uplands' at all. Indeed, I would say the BSE strategy has been more like 100:0 to 'Fear'.
Curtice said: “That would appear to imply that under this scenario many a list vote for the SNP would be ‘wasted’, that is it would fail to contribute towards the election of a MSP.
“Indeed, under our scenario that proves to be case for any regional list vote cast for the SNP anywhere other than in the Highland and Islands region, the only region where the party is projected to win any list seats.
“That this situation could arise in a number of regions, given the SNP’s current standing in the polls, has led to speculation that nationalist supporters might be wise on the second ballot to vote tactically for a different party, such as the Greens or the left-wing RISE grouping, both of which also support independence.
“That way their vote might contribute to the election of another independence supporting MSP rather than apparently be wasted."
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14432741.How_the_voting_system_works_and_what_it_means_for__Both_Votes_SNP_/
Unionists would be rolling in the aisles.
Once it happens then new parties will arise , maybe even a real Conservative one, and people can vote for what they want.
Given UKIP barely register in Scotland what where is the Leave campaign leadership coming from?
Rather an SNP majority government and a chance of independence than a few less unionists with some halfwitted nutters and no chance whatsoever.
Yes, Ryan Coetzee, the South African director of strategy. Straight from his last job doing the same for the Lib Dems GE2015. Good to see that REMAIN are picking the best talent. Coetzee is mainly villified on the Lib Dems comments boards, when they analysed GE2015. Topped only by Clegg and Ashdown.
Gender adds spice if gay but not critical to thrust of page one ejaculation.
Which bit of the spin do you actually disagree with?
The positive case that Remain will make is simply that we are economically better off within the EU than not. The campaign has barely got off the ground yet, none of the solidly Remain parties will get going till after the May elections. Brexit has been a right-wing wet dream for decades, of course they are going to make all the early running, they have been waiting years for this moment.
Oh er missus ..
Ideally, on the left we should seek both to maximise national income and to redistribute part of the top half to the bottom half, to even out the variations in fortune which are less our own doing than we like to think. How to do it is obviously a challenge, but if politicians don't even want to do it (as I don't think e.g. Osborne does), they aren't worth considering. If, conversely, they're notably indifferent to accumulating wealth themselves and don't bother to optimise their arrangements (Corbyn paid too much tax, not too little), that's a positive point, and nothing to do with leadership.
But I do think that the left needs competent economic management too, and I'm not sure which aspect of McDonnell's economic approach - balance the books in current spending and borrow at low interest rates for infrastructure investment - you disagree with.
What are they?
Or not. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/tories-close-labour-gap-in-holyrood-race-ps7zhbbtf
Tories - London only party and against independence
Labour - They wrecked Scotland and UK and against independence and Scotland
Greens - cuckoo , for independence maybe
RISE - extreme left wing nutters , just nutters
Others - fringe only , irrelevant some may be for independence , hard to say
Surely worthy of a thread or two on a quiet post watershed evening ....
Pensioners are very far from poor.