Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
Merkel isn't prosecuting anyone. If there's a prosecution it will be made by the local DPP and the government is staying well clear. I'm still in Berlin, where it's not possible to see what was said as the press are avoiding repeating it, but the gist of most of the readers' letters is that the remarks were libellous and unfunny but Erdogan's silly to pursue them.
What's silly is that he has any legal recourse to do so in a supposedly democratic country
I believe the law is an old one. Mrs Merkel, or rather, the CDU's leadership in the Bundestag, should immediately bring forward the repeal of the relevant legislation.
From 1871, that old, designed to protect the Kaiser's relatives (foreign monarchs). Although they can repeal it in 2 weeks time, I don't know if the repeal will be retroactive.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
Merkel isn't prosecuting anyone. If there's a prosecution it will be made by the local DPP and the government is staying well clear. I'm still in Berlin, where it's not possible to see what was said as the press are avoiding repeating it, but the gist of most of the readers' letters is that the remarks were libellous and unfunny but Erdogan's silly to pursue them.
What's silly is that he has any legal recourse to do so in a supposedly democratic country
I believe the law is an old one. Mrs Merkel, or rather, the CDU's leadership in the Bundestag, should immediately bring forward the repeal of the relevant legislation.
According to the Vote Leave website, this is the core group of the Campaign Committee which will coordinate between all campaign committee meetings and meet on a daily basis:
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) * Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) * Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) * Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) * Ian Davidson * Boris Johnson MP *
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
Merkel isn't prosecuting anyone. If there's a prosecution it will be made by the local DPP and the government is staying well clear. I'm still in Berlin, where it's not possible to see what was said as the press are avoiding repeating it, but the gist of most of the readers' letters is that the remarks were libellous and unfunny but Erdogan's silly to pursue them.
What's silly is that he has any legal recourse to do so in a supposedly democratic country
I believe the law is an old one. Mrs Merkel, or rather, the CDU's leadership in the Bundestag, should immediately bring forward the repeal of the relevant legislation.
From 1871, that old, designed to protect the Kaiser's relatives (foreign monarchs). Although they can repeal it in 2 weeks time, I don't know if the repeal will be retroactive.
It wouldn't be, but it would send a strong signal.
According to the Vote Leave website, this is the core group of the Campaign Committee which will coordinate between all campaign committee meetings and meet on a daily basis:
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) * Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) * Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) * Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) * Ian Davidson * Boris Johnson MP *
Gove looks more senior to Boris to me.
That's because Gove is a serious guy. And Boris is a joke.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
You can write and say anything you like in public without been prosecuted.
That's why the New York Daily News had on it's front page that Trump was the antichrist. Or Fox News accusing Obama of being a secret communist.
It's fun, but it encourages madness in public affairs.
According to the Vote Leave website, this is the core group of the Campaign Committee which will coordinate between all campaign committee meetings and meet on a daily basis:
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) * Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) * Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) * Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) * Ian Davidson * Boris Johnson MP *
Gove looks more senior to Boris to me.
That's because Gove is a serious guy. And Boris is a joke.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
You can write and say anything you like in public without been prosecuted.
That's why the New York Daily News had on it's front page that Trump was the antichrist. Or Fox News accusing Obama of being a secret communist.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
You may not be heard, but at least you won't be locked up for your beliefs. The flame of freedom may flicker low, but it can never be extinguished in the US...
According to the Vote Leave website, this is the core group of the Campaign Committee which will coordinate between all campaign committee meetings and meet on a daily basis:
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) * Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) * Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) * Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) * Ian Davidson * Boris Johnson MP *
Gove looks more senior to Boris to me.
Too right he is too. If Leave win this Gove should unquestionably be next PM.
Reminds me of the time when Liverpool was winning with penalties. Since then I've learned to avoid the TV (and betting) when Liverpool is playing in europe in order to avoid anxiety.
At the risk of setting the Remain hares running, Vote Leave has attempted a summary to answer the big question: What happens if we Vote Leave?
It appears to me to be arguing for part of EFTA, but also new institutional architecture (which would presumably modify EFTA-EEA quite radically), a new bilateral UK-EU treaty, including migration, and also, most importantly, not necessarily to invoke Article 50 straight away but to complete the negotiation within four years, by the 2020GE:
"WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE VOTE LEAVE?
We end the supremacy of EU law and the European Court. We will be able to kick out those who make our laws.
Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.
We spend our money on our priorities. Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and schools.
We take back control of migration policy, including the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, so we have a fairer and more humane policy, and we decide who comes into our country, on what terms, and who is removed.
We will regain our seat on international bodies where Brussels represents us, and use our greater international influence to push for greater international cooperation.
We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way.
We will negotiate a new UK-EU Treaty and end the legal supremacy of EU law and the European Court before the 2020 election.
We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests."
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
Reminds me of the time when Liverpool was winning with penalties. Since then I've learned to avoid the TV (and betting) when Liverpool is playing in europe in order to avoid anxiety.
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
For years if I've made a deposit before about 3:30pm it has shown up same day.
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
With electronic transfers it doesn't. I have two accounts, First Direct (for salary) and RBS (for translation - helps keep the tax return clear). If I move money from one to the other, or pay someone else, it happens instantly in both. Likewise with Paypal. What takes time is paying in cheques.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
If you deposit cash it appears immediately. If you deposit a cheque it doesn't, but who writes cheques these days?
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
You may not be heard, but at least you won't be locked up for your beliefs. The flame of freedom may flicker low, but it can never be extinguished in the US...
There can be self censorship in the US, but never on an individual basis.
It seems Vote Leave are timing the implementation of the treaty deal with the new EU treaty to save the eurozone, also expected around 2020. They see a three-phase informal negotiation/formal negotiation/implementation approach.
Thus combined, I imagine, creating the new institutional architecture for Europe by the start of the next decade.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
Or she's coming across not as a nodding dog and maybe yes she is willing to get into an argument.
Though I never heard Corbyn say words like "I think we should stay in". The clips I saw on the news were deliberately circumspect like "Labour thinks we should stay in".
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
With electronic transfers it doesn't. I have two accounts, First Direct (for salary) and RBS (for translation - helps keep the tax return clear). If I move money from one to the other, or pay someone else, it happens instantly in both. Likewise with Paypal. What takes time is paying in cheques.
Agreed. Though, depending on the bank, you do have to be careful with the FP limits. I think my bank turns payments into CHAPS over 10k, for example....
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
For years if I've made a deposit before about 3:30pm it has shown up same day.
With my bank - Barclays - deposits show up on the account on the same day but take five working days to clear.
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
For years if I've made a deposit before about 3:30pm it has shown up same day.
With my bank - Barclays - deposits show up on the account on the same day but take five working days to clear.
Are they cheque deposits? Cheques are anachronistic.
I've had money deposited electronically and spent it minutes later.
I believe the law is an old one. Mrs Merkel, or rather, the CDU's leadership in the Bundestag, should immediately bring forward the repeal of the relevant legislation.
I'm handicapped by not having seen what was said, but according to the press here an ordinary libel suit would have a good chance of success - but that would presumably need to be a private case, and could only lead to financial damages. The law barring insults to foreign heads of state is indubitably both old and odd - I wonder if it applies to Mugabe, Kim Jong-Un, etc.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
For years if I've made a deposit before about 3:30pm it has shown up same day.
With my bank - Barclays - deposits show up on the account on the same day but take five working days to clear.
Are they cheque deposits? Cheques are anachronistic.
I've had money deposited electronically and spent it minutes later.
Yes cheques. I'm happy to be paid for my work but those who pay me tend to use cheques! Electronic transfers - yes they settle immediately.
Still can't get my head around the fact that Merkel is "considering" prosecuting a comedian who insulted the Turkish president. An unbelievable state of affairs.
Very believable. Freedom-of-speech is not a European basic right.
It's being eroded in this country too. Soon only America will be left.
America seems to have de jure free speech, without it being de facto.
You can write and say anything you like in public without been prosecuted.
That's why the New York Daily News had on it's front page that Trump was the antichrist. Or Fox News accusing Obama of being a secret communist.
It's fun, but it encourages madness in public affairs.
In the US, they uphold the principle that no only is free speech important, but politicians/public figures have even less ability to complain.
UK law hasn't reached that yet (I think it was proposed in the Defamation Act but not included).
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
For years if I've made a deposit before about 3:30pm it has shown up same day.
With my bank - Barclays - deposits show up on the account on the same day but take five working days to clear.
Are they cheque deposits? Cheques are anachronistic.
I've had money deposited electronically and spent it minutes later.
Yes cheques. I'm happy to be paid for my work but those who pay me tend to use cheques! Electronic transfers - yes they settle immediately.
Well, cheques have to be physically cleared to verify that the funds are available, hence the delay.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
"Later, apparently to clarify, Gani tweeted that the photograph had been taken at an event both he and (presumably) Goldsmith had been invited to attend:"
Give us a shout when he attends and shares a platform with this guy for the ninth time. Might be worth critical consideration then
I'm not a fan of Zac - and not a fan of the Mayor full stop as I don't get a vote despite working in London - but this looks a poor effort from the Guardian. Politicos are often asked to pose for pictures with random people.
Sure - but the Tories routinely use the same sort of stuff - Khan's imam comes from the same branch of the faith as dubious imam X in Glasgow, Khan's ex-brother in law expressed dubious views 20 years ago, etc. This chap endorsed a Tory candidate without having been repudiated, so far as I can see.
The reality is that nobody is responsible for everyone they meet or everyone who supports them. Goldsmith, by focusing on the spurious attempt to portray Khan as extreme, is using up his own airtime in a fairly unpleasant way. The Standard (literally the only source of info on the race for a lot of Londoners) gives him and Khan a headline each every few days, and Goldsmith's headlines are often some sort of whinge about Khan, while Khan's are more usually about something he wants to do for London.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
Your whining suggests she's hit a nerve.
It did hit a nerve. I thought it was unbelievably stupid. It was of no consequence as far as the referendum is concerned but I was very disappointed that a Labour MP should expose herself and her party to ridicule
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
The terrors of the right or the terrors of democracy?
It is interesting to recall that in 1975 the IN side saw the EEC as a safety valve to protect against supposed Marxist fellow travellers on the Labour left.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
Well I'm against the EU because I have been convinced that the terrors of the EU can be worse than any terror the Tory party can bring.
Any government can be defeated by the voters or it's own MP's if they tried to do something loony either immediately or over time, but the EU can't be defeated if it tries something loony.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
According to the Vote Leave website, this is the core group of the Campaign Committee which will coordinate between all campaign committee meetings and meet on a daily basis:
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) * Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) * Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) * Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) * Ian Davidson * Boris Johnson MP *
Gove looks more senior to Boris to me.
Too right he is too. If Leave win this Gove should unquestionably be next PM.
Gove is more suited to be a Grey Eminence than the front man.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
Yep, Tyson is another of those who hates the idea of Democracy and is happy to see the EU undermine and destroy democratically elected Governments. I am sure he was cheering at the way the left wing government of Greece were trashed by the EU.
I tell you one thing, people who do not get footie are really missing out. I loved Tuesday night....and then I loved tonight. And I have 2 great European semi finals to look forward to (4 nights)- great occasions to share with close friends, build up to, talk about, think about, and get completely engrossed in.
Football is a superb hobby...... I played it for years, made close friends, and have so many memories because of it, and will continue to do so. I doubt there are other interests that are quite so giving.
Toby Young @toadmeister When David Dimbleby suggests it was the success of Cameron’s EU negotiation that changed Corbyn’s mind, #bbcqt audience laughs.
Newsnight questioning a labour front bench spokesman re the alleged use of Mine Workers Funds to pay off his mortgage. Assume the Conservative Party will demand an explanation from him and that he is refered to the appropriate authority
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
"Later, apparently to clarify, Gani tweeted that the photograph had been taken at an event both he and (presumably) Goldsmith had been invited to attend:"
Give us a shout when he attends and shares a platform with this guy for the ninth time. Might be worth critical consideration then
Except Khan didn't "share a platform" with extremists any more than Goldsmith did. Khan, like Goldsmith, simply attended the same event (something about extradition treaties) as an extremist.
I suggest you Google Khan and Al Qaradawi at the time in 2004 when he was invited by Livingstone or Khan and his support for an Islamic blasphemy law and you will see that Khan has been rather more supportive of extremists and for longer than he now likes to claim.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
Speech about social justice? Some top drawer spinning there. He'd just been making a speech about the EU and the referendum and he is not Hoey's leader for that he's her opposition.
I don't think I've ever said that I'm a Democrat. But Brexit is hardly a democratic issue. Opinion poll after opinion poll placed Europe at the bottom of the pile.
Now we have this ludicrous situation where this minority, right wing, issue is dominating everything at the expense of everything.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
Yep, Tyson is another of those who hates the idea of Democracy and is happy to see the EU undermine and destroy democratically elected Governments. I am sure he was cheering at the way the left wing government of Greece were trashed by the EU.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
Yep, Tyson is another of those who hates the idea of Democracy and is happy to see the EU undermine and destroy democratically elected Governments. I am sure he was cheering at the way the left wing government of Greece were trashed by the EU.
It's one of the most interesting political developments of our times, how increasingly it's the left, rather than the right, who fear the masses.
I don't think I've ever said that I'm a Democrat. But Brexit is hardly a democratic issue. Opinion poll after opinion poll placed Europe at the bottom of the pile.
Now we have this ludicrous situation where this minority, right wing, issue is dominating everything at the expense of everything.
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
Yep, Tyson is another of those who hates the idea of Democracy and is happy to see the EU undermine and destroy democratically elected Governments. I am sure he was cheering at the way the left wing government of Greece were trashed by the EU.
As Molotov said to Ribbentrop "if Britain is beaten, whose bombs are we hiding from in this shelter?"
If EU membership is unimportant, why are we having this vote?
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
It's a pity that after a Labour leader made the first really impressive argument to Remain from the perspective of social justice it should be undermined by someone on the same side.
There are many reasons she could have argued why she didn't think belonging to the EU was in Britain's interest but that's not what she did. She dismissed him as a fake.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
It's a pity that after a Labour leader made the first really impressive argument to Remain from the perspective of social justice it should be undermined by someone on the same side.
There are many reasons she could have argued why she didn't think belonging to the EU was in Britain's interest but that's not what she did. She dismissed him as a fake.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
It's a pity that after a Labour leader made the first really impressive argument to Remain from the perspective of social justice it should be undermined by someone on the same side.
There are many reasons she could have argued why she didn't think belonging to the EU was in Britain's interest but that's not what she did. She dismissed him as a fake.
The EU is against social justice in practice, the eurozone is a prime example.
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
Speech about social justice? Some top drawer spinning there. He'd just been making a speech about the EU and the referendum and he is not Hoey's leader for that he's her opposition.
I think you can take a different view on whether progressive politics is better advanced within the EU or without. But after your leader has just advanced the argument for why he thinks on balance it's better advanced within at least have the class to make the opposing argument and not just stick your tongue out
As usual Roger we appear to be in the same place. Corbyn was good today and his reasons for staying in Europe were sensible.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
Great speech by Corbyn. He said everything that needed to be said. We have to save the hard won rights which the Johnson government cabal will demolish as soon as possible.
Johnson government cabal ?
Alan or Boris ? Both would probably follow the same policies. Too early to vilify though, none are PM yet.
I too I was satisfied with Corbyn's speech, he came as close to supporting Leave as he could. Listing all the faults of the EU and then adding Remain on the end was quite a laugh.
Silly comment. He did what everyone has done. He pointed out why he believed it was in our interests to stay in despite it's faults. The best speech I've heard him make as it happens and I thought his reasons for recommending Remain were persuasive. It was his measured approach that made him believable. Kate Hoey should have taken note.
I don't know whether you got to hear Kate Hoey? In answer to Corbyn they used a comment from Hoey. Had it been from the outer reaches of UKIP it would be understandable but from a Labour MP after he'd made a speech about social justice just made her look batty
It's a pity that after a Labour leader made the first really impressive argument to Remain from the perspective of social justice it should be undermined by someone on the same side.
There are many reasons she could have argued why she didn't think belonging to the EU was in Britain's interest but that's not what she did. She dismissed him as a fake.
The EU is against social justice in practice, the eurozone is a prime example.
No it isn't.
The Greeks could run any social policies that they wanted if they were willing to pay for them themselves. It is not social justice for German workers to pay for Greeks to retire earlier than they can themselves.
Angus Robertson now labelling those earning over £150,000 as "ultra-rich".
In addition to taxpayers with an annual income of more than £150,000 and wealth of between £2.5 million and £20 million, the unit will also cover those with wealth in the range £1 million to £2.5 million. <-
Angus Robertson now labelling those earning over £150,000 as "ultra-rich".
In addition to taxpayers with an annual income of more than £150,000 and wealth of between £2.5 million and £20 million, the unit will also cover those with wealth in the range £1 million to £2.5 million. <-
I'd say that was "rich", not "ultra-rich".
Ultra rich surely is ~ £100m+ ?</p>
It is close to the threshold for the top 1%, £160,000, so that is pretty rich even if not maybe super rich
I watched parts off Corbyn's speech today- it was actually rather good.
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
I've no idea whether Corbyn in the privacy of his own bedroom really thinks it's a good idea to stay in the EU. But for Kate Hoey to say he's saying something he doesn't believe is just bonkers. Does she want to get into an argument with her leader about whether he's lying about something only he can know the answer to? She really does come across as stupid .
By "left to the terrors of the right" do you mean democracy?
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
As Dan Hannan pointed out arguably freed from the EU a Corbyn government would have free reign to implement a socialist manifesto if that was the democratic will of the voters, which as Greece and Syriza has shown is not the case now so the argument holds the other way too. That was why Benn opposed the EU
Comments
Although they can repeal it in 2 weeks time, I don't know if the repeal will be retroactive.
21.35 66/1
21.59 5/2
Rt Hon Michael Gove MP (Co-Convener) *
Rt Hon Gisela Stuart MP (Co-Convener) *
Matthew Elliott (Chief Executive) *
Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) *
Ian Davidson *
Boris Johnson MP *
Gove looks more senior to Boris to me.
http://www.beleave.uk/
That's why the New York Daily News had on it's front page that Trump was the antichrist.
Or Fox News accusing Obama of being a secret communist.
It's fun, but it encourages madness in public affairs.
Since then I've learned to avoid the TV (and betting) when Liverpool is playing in europe in order to avoid anxiety.
It appears to me to be arguing for part of EFTA, but also new institutional architecture (which would presumably modify EFTA-EEA quite radically), a new bilateral UK-EU treaty, including migration, and also, most importantly, not necessarily to invoke Article 50 straight away but to complete the negotiation within four years, by the 2020GE:
"WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE VOTE LEAVE?
We end the supremacy of EU law and the European Court. We will be able to kick out those who make our laws.
Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.
We spend our money on our priorities. Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and schools.
We take back control of migration policy, including the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, so we have a fairer and more humane policy, and we decide who comes into our country, on what terms, and who is removed.
We will regain our seat on international bodies where Brussels represents us, and use our greater international influence to push for greater international cooperation.
We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way.
We will negotiate a new UK-EU Treaty and end the legal supremacy of EU law and the European Court before the 2020 election.
We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests."
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal
Very interesting. I look forward to hearing more.
With the UK banking system, why is it that when you withdraw money it happens immediately but when you deposit it takes days to show up in your account? Seems like a system based on contempt for the ordinary bank user.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH657zQU6ck
As students of trivia will know, Patchogue, NY is home to the last line of the Hitlers (formerly the Liverpool Hitlers...)
Anyhow, enjoy the music!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeq8wttfKs
As I said, it can be fun but only if you never actually believe any of the crap they are saying.
Thus combined, I imagine, creating the new institutional architecture for Europe by the start of the next decade.
Though I never heard Corbyn say words like "I think we should stay in". The clips I saw on the news were deliberately circumspect like "Labour thinks we should stay in".
I've had money deposited electronically and spent it minutes later.
You heard it here first.
UK law hasn't reached that yet (I think it was proposed in the Defamation Act but not included).
Of course Corbyn believes in Europe. He understands out of it we are left to the terrors of the right. I think Cameron and Corbyn share the same fears.
Kate Hoey is just another narcissist.
BTW- a big congrats to City and Liverpool
The reality is that nobody is responsible for everyone they meet or everyone who supports them. Goldsmith, by focusing on the spurious attempt to portray Khan as extreme, is using up his own airtime in a fairly unpleasant way. The Standard (literally the only source of info on the race for a lot of Londoners) gives him and Khan a headline each every few days, and Goldsmith's headlines are often some sort of whinge about Khan, while Khan's are more usually about something he wants to do for London.
It is interesting to recall that in 1975 the IN side saw the EEC as a safety valve to protect against supposed Marxist fellow travellers on the Labour left.
Funny really since the election- Corbyn has been pretty much on the right side of the money on most things. I was wrong before about Ed Miliband- Corbyn is a step above, but still hapless I'm afraid.
I'm crying like a disgraced televangelist
#YNWA
Any government can be defeated by the voters or it's own MP's if they tried to do something loony either immediately or over time, but the EU can't be defeated if it tries something loony.
IJWT
YNWA: You Never Walk Alone. (Liverpool slogan)
Before anyone rants about our voting system recall that even under PR the last election would have had a right wing majority.
Now do you know IJWT?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36046675
For a Liverpool fan....In Jurgen We Trust
For a Labour supporter....In Jezza We Trust
I tell you one thing, people who do not get footie are really missing out. I loved Tuesday night....and then I loved tonight. And I have 2 great European semi finals to look forward to (4 nights)- great occasions to share with close friends, build up to, talk about, think about, and get completely engrossed in.
Football is a superb hobby...... I played it for years, made close friends, and have so many memories because of it, and will continue to do so. I doubt there are other interests that are quite so giving.
When David Dimbleby suggests it was the success of Cameron’s EU negotiation that changed Corbyn’s mind, #bbcqt audience laughs.
I suggest you Google Khan and Al Qaradawi at the time in 2004 when he was invited by Livingstone or Khan and his support for an Islamic blasphemy law and you will see that Khan has been rather more supportive of extremists and for longer than he now likes to claim.
Now we have this ludicrous situation where this minority, right wing, issue is dominating everything at the expense of everything.
If EU membership is unimportant, why are we having this vote?
There are many reasons she could have argued why she didn't think belonging to the EU was in Britain's interest but that's not what she did. She dismissed him as a fake.
The Greeks could run any social policies that they wanted if they were willing to pay for them themselves. It is not social justice for German workers to pay for Greeks to retire earlier than they can themselves.
Taunton Halcon (Taunton Deane) result:
LDEM: 43.0% (+2.7)
CON: 24.6% (-11.0)
LAB: 14.7% (+14.7)
UKIP: 13.1% (+13.1)
GRN: 4.6% (-19.5)
Wadebridge West (Cornwall) vote result:
LDEM: 604
CON: 356
LAB: 222
IND: 111
GRN: 95
LDEM: 43.5% (+19.2)
CON: 25.6% (-39.9)
LAB: 16.0% (+5.8)
IND: 8.0% (+8.0)
GRN: 6.8% (+6.8)
In addition to taxpayers with an annual income of more than £150,000 and wealth of between £2.5 million and £20 million, the unit will also cover those with wealth in the range £1 million to £2.5 million. <-
I'd say that was "rich", not "ultra-rich".
Ultra rich surely is ~ £100m+ ?
Wadebridge West (Cornwall) result:
LDEM: 43.5% (+19.2)
CON: 25.6% (-39.9)
LAB: 16.0% (+5.8)
IND: 8.0% (+8.0)
GRN: 6.8% (+6.8)
TOM HARRIS
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/14/david-cameron-is-making-a-grave-mistake-in-disrespecting-jacob-r/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1460636746
And three top answers from the green lady !
Dirty sleazy Cons on the slide....