Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
Oh @JosiasJessop, the fact that you care more about the Tory government and the PM, shows the same short term thinking that has been the bane of British politics since WW1. You seem to care more about Cameron than you do about the future of Britain as a whole.
Rubbish.
I see Corbynite Labour as being a real threat to the economic and social fabric of this country. I'm not a Conservative, but have been fairly anti-Labour for ten or so years now. Corbyn's only made that worse.
If you had a choice, would you prefer a Corbynite government for twenty years outside the EU, or a Conservative government inside the EU for the same period? Which would do most harm to the country in your eyes?
Although it's possible Labour would do everything it could to get back into the EU.
I agree that Corbyn is a total catastrophe waiting to happen should he gain power. However it was the Labour party leadership that put him on the ballot paper in the first place. May they all rot, together.
Well of course that's a view. On the other hand there is a large and probably growing slice of disaffected voters more or less across the political spectrum. These people are
- probably in areas of the economy that get ignored - construction manufacturing etc - have been bearing the brunt of globalisation - see immigration as a threat on a variety of levels - housing, schools, community, culture - have stagnating wages and prospects
They see in return a political class which
- ignores their difficulties and tells just to suck it up - which has got us into the current mess and been rewarded for failure - which gets richer on the strength of their friends and establishment contacts - prioritises external groups concerns over their own voters - compounds the above by studiously not listening
At some point somehwere this group will start toget real and meaningful representation in Parliament - because it has to if nothing else. If the "bastards" peeling off starts this process then we could be in for a couplke of interesting years.
That's fantastic! Yes, leaving the EU will automagically and magically help all those groups regardless of who holds the reigns of power in this country!
Good governance can go out of the window, but we'll still be successful as we'll be free of the EU's evil shackles.
Come on, I want to vote leave, but these sorts of arguments just make leave seem silly.
Helluva dead cat from Dave to take away focus from the government's impartial free leaflet to the voters about what Brexit really means that has so enraged the Euro obsessives, who as the FT observe are unable to criticise the contents of the leaflet.
David Cameron would much rather Leave campaigners continued wailing and gurning about the leaflet. The more publicity it gets, the more it will be read.
Those signing the petition were never going to vote Remain anyway. Indeed, when the petition finally runs out of puff we'll have a fair idea of just how many monomaniac Leavers there are in the country: it's a handy informal census.
"David Cameron would much rather Leave campaigners continued wailing and gurning about the leaflet"
I am not surprised they are "wailing and gurning" as you arrogantly put it.
Can any democratic process be fair where one side gets a free tax payers "bung" to do a full leaflet run while the opposing view has no such advantage. The governments argument that it has a duty to inform the public is quite simply bollocks. No doubt tax payers money is already being lined up for Remains TV "information" frightener adverts in the run up to the referendum.
What should have happened if they wished to inform the public was put both sides of the argument on the same leaflet with no interference on BOO's statements. Better still not spend 9 million quid at all or if they had to give the money to Great Ormonde st , buy the RNLI some rescue kit or something similar.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
I'd say you're both right. There is a bloc of Conservative MPs now forming a party within a party, obsessed by the EU and in internal opposition to the government. And this state of affairs is partly caused by bad party management.
There has always been that solipsistic intellectually-challenged bloc of loon Tory MPs.
What are you unhappy with modern, engaged Conservatives for? Whaddaya got?
Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
Oh @JosiasJessop, the fact that you care more about the Tory government and the PM, shows the same short term thinking that has been the bane of British politics since WW1. You seem to care more about Cameron than you do about the future of Britain as a whole.
Rubbish.
I see Corbynite Labour as being a real threat to the economic and social fabric of this country. I'm not a Conservative, but have been fairly anti-Labour for ten or so years now. Corbyn's only made that worse.
If you had a choice, would you prefer a Corbynite government for twenty years outside the EU, or a Conservative government inside the EU for the same period? Which would do most harm to the country in your eyes?
Although it's possible Labour would do everything it could to get back into the EU.
I agree that Corbyn is a total catastrophe waiting to happen should he gain power. However it was the Labour party leadership that put him on the ballot paper in the first place. May they all rot, together.
At the risk of conforming to a stereotype, I like both Red Leicester and Edam.
A rather disturbing confession that really shouldn't have been published before the evening watershed and more cynically the "Edam" revelation is a shocking piece of REMAIN propaganda especially seen in the context of the coupling of it with a fine English cheese as Red Leicester.
Bet Ed Milliband is having a decent morning. This government is having a nightmare. And its probably going to get worse. Watching Bargain Hunt was the better option.
Paddy Power has him 150/1 to be the next Labour leader. Bargain. How can he get himself back in the game now though? Probably best to skulk around for a while. He's still young.
Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
Oh @JosiasJessop, the fact that you care more about the Tory government and the PM, shows the same short term thinking that has been the bane of British politics since WW1. You seem to care more about Cameron than you do about the future of Britain as a whole.
Rubbish.
I see Corbynite Labour as being a real threat to the economic and social fabric of this country. I'm not a Conservative, but have been fairly anti-Labour for ten or so years now. Corbyn's only made that worse.
If you had a choice, would you prefer a Corbynite government for twenty years outside the EU, or a Conservative government inside the EU for the same period? Which would do most harm to the country in your eyes?
Although it's possible Labour would do everything it could to get back into the EU.
I agree that Corbyn is a total catastrophe waiting to happen should he gain power. However it was the Labour party leadership that put him on the ballot paper in the first place. May they all rot, together.
That's not answering my question.
My answer is that Labour and Tory are two sides of the same coin. A pox on both of them! And now Breakkers.
Well of course that's a view. On the other hand there is a large and probably growing slice of disaffected voters more or less across the political spectrum. These people are
- probably in areas of the economy that get ignored - construction manufacturing etc - have been bearing the brunt of globalisation - see immigration as a threat on a variety of levels - housing, schools, community, culture - have stagnating wages and prospects
They see in return a political class which
- ignores their difficulties and tells just to suck it up - which has got us into the current mess and been rewarded for failure - which gets richer on the strength of their friends and establishment contacts - prioritises external groups concerns over their own voters - compounds the above by studiously not listening
At some point somehwere this group will start toget real and meaningful representation in Parliament - because it has to if nothing else. If the "bastards" peeling off starts this process then we could be in for a couplke of interesting years.
That's fantastic! Yes, leaving the EU will automagically and magically help all those groups regardless of who holds the reigns of power in this country!
Good governance can go out of the window, but we'll still be successful as we'll be free of the EU's evil shackles.
Come on, I want to vote leave, but these sorts of arguments just make leave seem silly.
Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean to say their reality of how they experience the EU is wrong. Put the other way what exactly are the government parties offering that big slab of the electorate ?
It's pointless claiming we all win from being in the EU. Some do, some don't. If you're one of the don'ts why would you vote against your own economic interest let alone your emotional one ?
I've a lot of sympathy with that. He was also the future once, now we need to see post EU ref how things pan out.
I'm assuming it's going to get even dirtier too. My heart sinks at the prospect. More previously loyal Tories are simply going to feel that this isn't what we voted for nor feel able to swallow it. Whether Remain wins or loses, I think Cameron has damaged himself and the Party totally unnecessarily.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
The German interior ministry is reporting that the number of asylum claims has dramatically fallen in the first quarter of the year. Mission accomplished for Merkel and relief for the Remain campaign?
We'll knock me down with a feather. That's the "asylum claims" of course not the actual number of people entering illegally.
By the way Is that the same department that's saying don't use the word rape in criminal arrests so they can hide the true scale of the problem from the public?
Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
Oh @JosiasJessop, the fact that you care more about the Tory government and the PM, shows the same short term thinking that has been the bane of British politics since WW1. You seem to care more about Cameron than you do about the future of Britain as a whole.
Rubbish. I see Corbynite Labour as being a real threat to the economic and social fabric of this country. I'm not a Conservative, but have been fairly anti-Labour for ten or so years now. Corbyn's only made that worse. If you had a choice, would you prefer a Corbynite government for twenty years outside the EU, or a Conservative government inside the EU for the same period? Which would do most harm to the country in your eyes? Although it's possible Labour would do everything it could to get back into the EU.
Not under Corbyn.
As I've said before, I doubt Corbyn will be leading Labour into the next GE. It'll be another Corbynite MP. Corbyn's job is to rig the party for his successor.
The German interior ministry is reporting that the number of asylum claims has dramatically fallen in the first quarter of the year. Mission accomplished for Merkel and relief for the Remain campaign?
We'll knock me down with a feather. That's the "asylum claims" of course not the actual number of people entering illegally.
By the way Is that the same department that's saying don't use the word rape in criminal arrests so they can hide the true scale of the problem from the public?
This can be safely ignored I think.
I think the UN data is generally reliable and shows the numbers sharply down month-on-month, but still - of course - up year-over-year.
Bet Ed Milliband is having a decent morning. This government is having a nightmare. And its probably going to get worse. Watching Bargain Hunt was the better option.
Helluva dead cat from Dave to take away focus from the government's impartial free leaflet to the voters about what Brexit really means that has so enraged the Euro obsessives, who as the FT observe are unable to criticise the contents of the leaflet.
David Cameron would much rather Leave campaigners continued wailing and gurning about the leaflet. The more publicity it gets, the more it will be read.
Those signing the petition were never going to vote Remain anyway. Indeed, when the petition finally runs out of puff we'll have a fair idea of just how many monomaniac Leavers there are in the country: it's a handy informal census.
That is the point that has had me baffled. Not only are they drawing attention to a leaflet that they think undermines their case but also exposing their biggest weakness which needs to show that a future in their hands will be rock solid and safe.
Well they've got the electoral commission on their side. Also according to Carswell the cost of the leaflet is greater than the entire spending limit for the campaign. We were told by Anna Soubry last night that this was the most important vote for a generation. I wonder if the Tories will impose a similar spending cap on the not so important 2020 general election?
Exactly. Even the Electoral Commission think the Government is misbehaving.
Remainiacs are simply enjoying using it as a stick to beat Leavers with.
It's the usual dishonest remain obsessed tosh from Meeks and his acolytes. He tries to portray the fuss about the leaflets as the actions of a obsessed minority, where as that survey yesterday showed that 40% of the electorate though it was fair, and 46% though it was unfair. Always makes you look good to hand wave away the concern of almost half the electorate as a small group of obsessives. If leave win with 52% I dare say that will be a small group of obsessives as well. The problem with the metropolitan elite is they actually can't understand how half the country doesn't agree with them.
If the Tories were producing pro-conservative or anti-labour propaganda with tax-payers money, they'd be shouting 'Cheat' all over the airwaves. And Jezza is a man of principle, isn't he?
Well, yes, but only highly selective principles.
The one trait that unites all politicians - hypocrisy.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
The German interior ministry is reporting that the number of asylum claims has dramatically fallen in the first quarter of the year. Mission accomplished for Merkel and relief for the Remain campaign?
The interesting question is whether April will be the first month where arrivals are down year-over-year? So far, the trend has been down since the peak last summer, but it is unclear exactly why this is the case - is it the deal with Turkey? the weather? or the fact that there simply aren't as many people wanting (or being able to afford) the crossing?
German press is claiming arrivals have dropped and its due to the new policy ob border controls.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
Last time I looked the government doesn't actually have a polciy. The Cabinet is quite openly split. But one side holds the budget.
@Alanbrooke Look closer. The government has a clear policy to remain with licence for Cabinet ministers to dissent. That is not the same as not having a policy.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
Interesting post well written but 80% of normal people reading it would dismiss you as a nutter.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
That's because there are multiple different competing visions for Britain out of the EU!
That's no bad thing as there are both left wing, protectionist, outside the EU futures for the UK, and free-market futures.
But it will, of course, leave one group of us Brexiters as quite upset.
@Alanbrooke Look closer. The government has a clear policy to remain with licence for Cabinet ministers to dissent. That is not the same as not having a policy.
A lawyerly answer. But HMG is not as one on the issue and as you have been pointing out over the last month is dysfunctional as a result.
Well of course that's a view. On the other hand there is a large and probably growing slice of disaffected voters more or less across the political spectrum. These people are
- probably in areas of the economy that get ignored - construction manufacturing etc - have been bearing the brunt of globalisation - see immigration as a threat on a variety of levels - housing, schools, community, culture - have stagnating wages and prospects
They see in return a political class which
- ignores their difficulties and tells just to suck it up - which has got us into the current mess and been rewarded for failure - which gets richer on the strength of their friends and establishment contacts - prioritises external groups concerns over their own voters - compounds the above by studiously not listening
At some point somehwere this group will start toget real and meaningful representation in Parliament - because it has to if nothing else. If the "bastards" peeling off starts this process then we could be in for a couplke of interesting years.
That's fantastic! Yes, leaving the EU will automagically and magically help all those groups regardless of who holds the reigns of power in this country!
Good governance can go out of the window, but we'll still be successful as we'll be free of the EU's evil shackles.
Come on, I want to vote leave, but these sorts of arguments just make leave seem silly.
Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean to say their reality of how they experience the EU is wrong. Put the other way what exactly are the government parties offering that big slab of the electorate ?
It's pointless claiming we all win from being in the EU. Some do, some don't. If you're one of the don'ts why would you vote against your own economic interest let alone your emotional one ?
The EU is just one issue of many that affect the country: the loons are more concerned in that small issue (because they think it is a big issue) than good governance. Holding (or threatening to hold) a government to ransom over legislation in this manner is worse than disgraceful, and doesn't bode well for their style of governance if they ever get near to the top.
They've babies throwing toys out of their pram.
And BTW, they're not offering anything to that large slab of the electorate; they're using them by promising the Earth so they win their vote on the EU.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
If Remain need £16 million (£9mn government leaflet plus £7mn campaigning budget) in order to get the public "informed" then why is the Leave campaign restricted to spending just £7mn?
Having an argument that people should be informed is one thing. Spending more in one go than the official Leave campaign will be allowed to spend in-between when it is picked by the Electoral Commission and the referendum date is something else entirely.
Surely if you want the Leave campaign to make the public be more informed then it should get the same budget and send a leaflet out too?
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
@Alanbrooke By "lawyerly" you mean "accurate". The Leave camp have whinged over and over about points that flow directly from the simple truth that the government has a position to Remain and is acting accordingly.
Is the government weak because it is opposed so vehemently by so many of its supporters on this policy? Yes of course it is. Does that mean that it does not have a policy? No of course it doesn't.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
That's because there are multiple different competing visions for Britain out of the EU!
That's no bad thing as there are both left wing, protectionist, outside the EU futures for the UK, and free-market futures.
But it will, of course, leave one group of us Brexiters as quite upset.
Far be it from me to advise the Brexiters but why don't they use uncertainty as an asset? That we won't know what the future holds because the British people will have their destiny in their own hands. And they can choose what they wish to do with it.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
Interesting post well written but 80% of normal people reading it would dismiss you as a nutter.
No doubt I am indeed insane. But most grateful if you could clarify that I'm a nutter because of: A: I want to be governed by those I can vote out of power (within my own demos - the UK); or B: I think governments should not spend more than they tax over the cycle so we don't go bust; or C: I don't like paying tax any more than the next person does but accept that I must - so get really very peeved when the likes of George Soros and Starbucks manage to pay essentially none at all.
Helluva dead cat from Dave to take away focus from the government's impartial free leaflet to the voters about what Brexit really means that has so enraged the Euro obsessives, who as the FT observe are unable to criticise the contents of the leaflet.
David Cameron would much rather Leave campaigners continued wailing and gurning about the leaflet. The more publicity it gets, the more it will be read.
Those signing the petition were never going to vote Remain anyway. Indeed, when the petition finally runs out of puff we'll have a fair idea of just how many monomaniac Leavers there are in the country: it's a handy informal census.
That is the point that has had me baffled. Not only are they drawing attention to a leaflet that they think undermines their case but also exposing their biggest weakness which needs to show that a future in their hands will be rock solid and safe.
Well they've got the electoral commission on their side. Also according to Carswell the cost of the leaflet is greater than the entire spending limit for the campaign. We were told by Anna Soubry last night that this was the most important vote for a generation. I wonder if the Tories will impose a similar spending cap on the not so important 2020 general election?
Exactly. Even the Electoral Commission think the Government is misbehaving.
Remainiacs are simply enjoying using it as a stick to beat Leavers with.
It's the usual dishonest remain obsessed tosh from Meeks and his acolytes. He tries to portray the fuss about the leaflets as the actions of a obsessed minority, where as that survey yesterday showed that 40% of the electorate though it was fair, and 46% though it was unfair. Always makes you look good to hand wave away the concern of almost half the electorate as a small group of obsessives. If leave win with 52% I dare say that will be a small group of obsessives as well. The problem with the metropolitan elite is they actually can't understand how half the country doesn't agree with them.
I don't know what the disclosure levels are for a single investment in a company / mutual fund are for the commons but it is possible that it was below those thresholds
Yes. Shareholdings: Interests in shareholdings held by the Member, either personally, or with or on behalf of the Member’s spouse or partner or dependent children, in any public or private company or other body which are: (a) greater than 15 per cent of the issued share capital of the company or body; or (b) 15 per cent or less of the issued share capital, but greater in value than the current parliamentary salary. The nature of the company’s business in each case should be registered.
Investments in funds need not normally be registered individually, though you must disclose anything relevant to anything you say. So if he made a speech about offshore funds before 2010, he should have mentioned it then.
Don't understand why Cameron did not simply come clean on the first pass given that he divested in 2010, his involvement was not substantial, and the vehicle was legal.
So this is damaging for his mishandling of a fairly straightforward issue, and the damage is personal as it was a very personal issue. But that said, on its own, hardly a fatal blow.
Lying toerag, did not even have the backbone to own up right away. No brains, no morals and no principles, just an empty suit, sooner he is gone the better.
@Moses_ So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy. Given that Leave has no coherent vision, it is unsurprising that its supporters want the public to be less informed and to make their decisions more superficially.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
"So you want the public to be less informed about government policy and its reasoning behind its policy."
Nice try at deflection from my actual point onto the question you preferred to answer that I hadn't actually raised.
Not in the least. In fact they should put their policy. The problem here, as you very well know, is that the public is actually "less informed" about the situation because the government only put the alternatives in a totally negative way. The issue is they have had a free 9 million quid to do just that so its not about "being prepared" at all.
If one side or the other had that advantage in any democratic election in this country it would be a scandal. No doubt you would also be happy for Labour to have 9 million quid "binged" to them at the next GE which the Tories will be Denied.
Sky are saying that they cannot find reference to David Cameron's share holding disclosure but Guido is saying that as the share holding was less than £70,000 it was not required to be disclosed
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
And how do you feel about Leavers being labelled as loons, fruitcakes, frothers and cheesemen by Remainers?
Neither side has a monopoly on either hyperbole or insults.
Helluva dead cat from Dave to take away focus from the government's impartial free leaflet to the voters about what Brexit really means that has so enraged the Euro obsessives, who as the FT observe are unable to criticise the contents of the leaflet.
David Cameron would much rather Leave campaigners continued wailing and gurning about the leaflet. The more publicity it gets, the more it will be read.
Those signing the petition were never going to vote Remain anyway. Indeed, when the petition finally runs out of puff we'll have a fair idea of just how many monomaniac Leavers there are in the country: it's a handy informal census.
That is the point that has had me baffled. Not only are they drawing attention to a leaflet that they think undermines their case but also exposing their biggest weakness which needs to show that a future in their hands will be rock solid and safe.
The key fact is NOT the leaflet itself, it is the fact that the leaflet was produced at all. Some people in the UK still have a sense of fair play - and that is a worthwhile button to press.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
1. TINA - I mean you may not like it but it is transparently the least worst option until UKIP achieves power in 2056. 2. He is giving you a choice so he respects you. Neither Lab (in) nor UKIP (out) would give you that choice. 3. The EU is not a monster it is a clumsy attempt to bring peace and harmony to nations. And widget specifications. 4. Yes he didn't bring the debt down and should be criticised. Please refer to pt. 1. 5. The Tory Rebel Alliance? ROTFLMAO. As they say.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
Well of course that's a view. On the other hand there is a large and probably growing slice of disaffected voters more or less across the political spectrum. These people are
- probably in areas of the economy that get ignored - construction manufacturing etc - have been bearing the brunt of globalisation - see immigration as a threat on a variety of levels - housing, schools, community, culture - have stagnating wages and prospects
They see in return a political class which
- ignores their difficulties and tells just to suck it up - which has got us into the current mess and been rewarded for failure
Good governance can go out of the window, but we'll still be successful as we'll be free of the EU's evil shackles.
Come on, I want to vote leave, but these sorts of arguments just make leave seem silly.
Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean to say their reality of how they experience the EU is wrong. Put the other way what exactly are the government parties offering that big slab of the electorate ?
It's pointless claiming we all win from being in the EU. Some do, some don't. If you're one of the don'ts why would you vote against your own economic interest let alone your emotional one ?
The EU is just one issue of many that affect the country: the loons are more concerned in that
And BTW, they're not offering anything to that large slab of the electorate; they're using them by promising the Earth so they win their vote on the EU.
You keep avoiding the point because it doesn't fit with how you would like the world to be.
There is a large and disaffected bunch of voters and nobody is representing their interest. Some politicians for a variety of reasons from sheer ambition ( Boris ) to principle ( Frank Field ) are using the referendum to gain their support, and succeeding despite themselves.
Your definition of "good governance" works for you but it doesn't work for a big chunk of UK electors and the only bone established parties will throw them is Peter.
So if you don't like the outcome that's fine but to rail against the reality that faces lots of voters is simply to join the Cameroons and Blairites by sticking your fingers in your ears.
Personally I ask how have we got here and is there anything we can do about it ?
Mr. Fernando, I'd urge you to make your decision based on what you think best for the UK in the medium to long term, not on whether you like or dislike those on one side or the other.
Mr. W, I have struck you across the face with the Enormo-Haddock of Truth!
Thanks but what is it for, I'm guessing the leaflet?
Yeah, the complaint is the remain side have been given effectively a free mail shot.
I remember the universal outrage when the same thing happens during SindyRef. Or didn't, I can't remember.
What happened? Did the No side get a free mail shot and Yes didn't? I would have thought it would have been the other way around given the Governments position in Scotland would have been for Yes.
UK Governemnt spent around £720,000 on a similar glossy multipage mailshot to Scottish homes during SindyRef. £720,000 is about 8% of £9 million which works out at a Scotland population share of this UK wide EURef mailshot.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
And how do you feel about Leavers being labelled as loons, fruitcakes, frothers and cheesemen by Remainers?
Neither side has a monopoly on either hyperbole or insults.
Do we really have to have this sort of flounce every few days where another politically engaged person announces to the world that because one side or other is horrible and nasty they are going to change there views completely. It's not remotely credible. It rather like many forumers on all the big online games that have a hissy fit and announce they are all leaving after there is a rule change or some sort and then... erm... dont.
Dave was someone I used to support quite a lot. I felt that he was pretty much on my side. I believed he wanted to eliminate the deficit and that we'd all share the pain. I believed he was a Eurosceptic. I didn't think he was ultimately in it to keep the establishment cosy. His support for eg free schools bolstered this impression. But...He's made a massive strategic choice to wave a finger at me and my desire to be governed by those I can vote for. Fuck him! The reason Dave is having a mare these days is that he's landed himself utterly on the wrong side of the biggest political question we face - and he's doing so in a mendacious and bullying manner. I wanted a Conservative government that would balance the books, put ordinary people ahead of the establishment machine and fight for Britain. We don't have such a government. A vote for Dave these days is a vote for cosiness for the 0.001%, the EU monster and uncontrolled debt. There doesn't appear to be any party left for an economically dry but principled and patriotic voter to support any more. I hope the Tory rebel alliance defeat Emperor Dave Palpatine and Darth Osborne.
Taken in by a snake oil salesman patrick.
Yes - that's pretty much how I feel about Dave these days.
On Cameron- he really is growing into someone I admire. Considering his background he could easily been just another Bullingdon, fox hunting, wealthy, elitist, money grabbing, little England Tory. I couldn't see beyond Cameron's background during those early years.
He clearly though has rejected his background somewhere along the way and is a thoroughly decent man. His commitment to overseas aid, and I think to the NHS are real. His championing of the EU referendum is something to behold for Europhiles like myself. Also, if it hadn't been for the banking crisis, he would have maintained Labour's broadly social democratic commitment to public spending. His approach to the migrant crisis is based on common sense rather than anything more sinister.
The stuff that has come out this week with his dad just proves to me even more how far Cameron has grown away from his background.
He's obviously not a control freak either- which has got him into trouble with like of Lansley and now Hunt who have managed to score some own goals with the NHS.
The Tory party is probably going to struggle to recover after the EU referendum; and the Labour party faultlines with Corbyn as leader are just unsustainable.
Something tells me that British politics is going to go through some kind of major sea change this year- and I for one hope that Cameron remains on the scene for many more years.
2. He is giving you a choice so he respects you. Neither Lab (in) nor UKIP (out) would give you that choice.
He is giving you a choice because he was worried about losing his right flank to the kippers at the GE and was expecting to lose it in the subsequent negotiations with the LDs, and unexpectedly got stuck holding the baby.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
And how do you feel about Leavers being labelled as loons, fruitcakes, frothers and cheesemen by Remainers?
Neither side has a monopoly on either hyperbole or insults.
Do we really have to have this sort of flounce every few days where another politically engaged person announces to the world that because one side or other is horrible and nasty they are going to change there views completely. It's not remotely credible. It rather like many forumers on all the big online games that have a hissy fit and announce they are all leaving after there is a rule change or some sort and then... erm... dont.
"Some people in the UK still have a sense of fair play - and that is a worthwhile button to press."
I remember in 1975, feeling the same. I was in favour of staying then, but the blatant partisanship made me uneasy. At least, I had the principles to see the bias and hypocrisy (pats younger self on back).
Can any remainer justify this? And I don't mean ...I favour remain so it's OK by me.
Mr Meeks, are you happy to win unfairly? Would you feel the same if Leave had this advantage?
By all means give the voters your version of the background and facts - but not with public money.
@Alanbrooke By "lawyerly" you mean "accurate". The Leave camp have whinged over and over about points that flow directly from the simple truth that the government has a position to Remain and is acting accordingly.
Is the government weak because it is opposed so vehemently by so many of its supporters on this policy? Yes of course it is. Does that mean that it does not have a policy? No of course it doesn't.
LOL since when has a lawyer ever been accurate ? Your whole profession is based on saying the other side's lawyer has got it wrong :-)
But on your earlier point that government has a clear and precise polcy , of course it doesn't. It is split and openly so. A section of the government has a short term political aim, the whole of the remainers in government have as many angles as the Leavers.
It would be the understatement of the year to say the PM has handled his tax affairs appallying. I'm absolutely incredulous how he could have got this so wrong. He must have known this was coming years ago and yet was totally unprepared. I would be amazed if his mother is still speaking to him.
Having said that, this is now a full blown media witch-hunt. Is there a more nauseating, stomach churning sight, than Tom Watson and John Mann hitting the air waves with their phoney, sanctimonious, political point scoring?
Thanks but what is it for, I'm guessing the leaflet?
Yeah, the complaint is the remain side have been given effectively a free mail shot.
I remember the universal outrage when the same thing happens during SindyRef. Or didn't, I can't remember.
What happened? Did the No side get a free mail shot and Yes didn't? I would have thought it would have been the other way around given the Governments position in Scotland would have been for Yes.
UK Governemnt spent around £720,000 on a similar glossy multipage mailshot to Scottish homes during SindyRef. £720,000 is about 8% of £9 million which works out at a Scotland population share of this UK wide EURef mailshot.
Is there no end to the government advising the public what is good for us?
Let's have a retrospective petition on the SINDY leaflet. Better still let's carpet bomb Ayrshire with turnips !!
The comments of the electoral commission are a damming verdict on the leaflet.
The Government has form in ignoring the Commission (as on voter registration, which may be about to bite them on the bum in the referendum).
A Tory friend (but not one with any special inside info) suggested last night that the timing of the leaflet announcement was a dead cat strategy to distract from the Cameron story. If so, it doesn't work, because the media will always choose a story involving a well-known person over a process story. But it may inadvertently work the other way - the row about the leaflet is obscured by the row about Cameron.
@Philip_Thompson Leave does not have a coherent policy position. It is therefore impossible to inform the public about it.
Nor is Leave obliged to have a coherent position. But Leave will shortly have a single official campaign (it currently has multiple competing ones). As soon as it has an official campaign the spending cap kicks in. If you want a single coherent position then let the single campaign get the same budget as you reckon the government requires on top of the Remain campaigns budget in order to make the position clear.
To put in a spending cap below what you think is necessary then complain about incoherence is insulting. Either the money does not need to be spent so the government shouldn't be spending it ... or the money does need to be spent so the official leave campaign would need to spend it too.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
And how do you feel about Leavers being labelled as loons, fruitcakes, frothers and cheesemen by Remainers?
Neither side has a monopoly on either hyperbole or insults.
Do we really have to have this sort of flounce every few days where another politically engaged person announces to the world that because one side or other is horrible and nasty they are going to change there views completely. It's not remotely credible. It rather like many forumers on all the big online games that have a hissy fit and announce they are all leaving after there is a rule change or some sort and then... erm... dont.
Who has flounced today?
Not flounced out, flounced from one side to the other. We keep seeing "I was leave but they are so horrible I am going to vote remain now" or "I was remain but they are so patronising I am going to vote leave now". No one is going to change their side because of a few online personalities who they have never met, change it because of the quality of argument or from new information maybe, but not because some you have never met, and probably won't, and may not even actually support the side they are claiming to, isn't very nice.
On Cameron- he really is growing into someone I admire. Considering his background he could easily been just another Bullingdon, fox hunting, wealthy, elitist, money grabbing, little England Tory. I couldn't see beyond Cameron's background during those early years.
He clearly though has rejected his background somewhere along the way and is a thoroughly decent man. His commitment to overseas aid, and I think to the NHS are real. His championing of the EU referendum is something to behold for Europhiles like myself. Also, if it hadn't been for the banking crisis, he would have maintained Labour's broadly social democratic commitment to public spending. His approach to the migrant crisis is based on common sense rather than anything more sinister.
The stuff that has come out this week with his dad just proves to me even more how far Cameron has grown away from his background.
He's obviously not a control freak either- which has got him into trouble with like of Lansley and now Hunt who have managed to score some own goals with the NHS.
The Tory party is probably going to struggle to recover after the EU referendum; and the Labour party faultlines with Corbyn as leader are just unsustainable.
Something tells me that British politics is going to go through some kind of major sea change this year- and I for one hope that Cameron remains on the scene for many more years.
I agree with pretty much all of that. This government is as centrist as governments that have inherited unsustainable deficits come and it is none the worse for that.
I think the mind set that Cameron and Osborne show on a variety of matters is so far removed from his father's generation as to be unrecognisable. My guess would be that he and Samantha had even forgotten they had this investment and it was simply sold on the wash up when he was preparing to become PM by realising all his shareholdings. This is a case where the sins of the fathers (and in fairness it was thought of as more of a part of the great game than a sin at the time) really have nothing to do with the son.
@CD13 If the government were arguing that we should leave the EU, I would expect it to explain its policy position to the public. It would be bizarre if it did not. Communication is a major part of government.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
Yes they do. Many of us who live in the real world walk the pavements wondering whether HE or SHE is one of THEM. These strange consiracy theorists who spend so much of their time in a paranoid world where strange foreigners are out to get them. Maybe you need something like a Voight-Kampff machine
Listen Roger- how long have we've been posting here- 12 years maybe.
I remember the momentous announcement when JackW bowed out of this site in 2005 I think- it was even picked up in the press with journalists asking who is JackW?
And it's taken you all this time to grasp JackW's technique!!!
"Clinton has a 21-point advantage among Democrats with a strong attachment to the party, the poll found"
"while Sanders leads 61 percent to 32 percent among Democratic-leaning independents."
Closed primaries coming up after WY...
Indeed.
There's plenty of heat and noise in the Dem contest, although cold and quiet compared to the GOP, but the essentials of the Clinton/Sanders race remain the same. Sanders has to win over two thirds of the remaining pledged delegates within the PR framework to catch Hillary. It wont happen.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
The referendum was a manifesto pledge. That the Tories are split on this issue does not alter the fact that Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the government should be getting on with the business of running the country. I'd argue it is those on the Remain side who are running around like headless chickens at the moment.
Osborne's performance since the GE has been nothing short of shambolic. You can shift the blame on to the backbenchers all you like but ultimately it is up to the government to get them onside. I'd argue that the conflicts that have arisen between the government and the backbenchers have had little to do with Europe and more to do with the fact that new Tories that have come in since 2010 are too scared of upsetting people.
If I was running Labour I'd be looking for an issue that there is already some Tory backbench sympathy for and putting forward a Supply Day motion about it - cancelling the compulsory academies policy or postponing the boundary review and seat reduction, say. Tory whips will struggle to appeal for blindfolded loyalty at the moment.
Here is the Electoral Commission’s view on Dave’s £9 million of extra taxpayer cash for pro-EU leaflets:
“We don’t think the government should have done it… [it gives Remain an] unfair advantage… undermines the principle [of spending limits]”
...Meanwhile multiple sources report that a whole team of Whitehall civil servants have in the last week or so been seconded from their departmental jobs to help the Remain campaign. Taxpayer-funded officials from the Cabinet Office, Treasury and Foreign Office are said to have been moved to campaign roles...
UPDATE: Stronger In stress no one is being seconded from Whitehall to work for them. The speculation doing the rounds is that the seconded civil servants are working on the campaign in Downing Street.
Another day, another day spent by Leave arguing about process. As someone on QT asked last night, if Leave side has so many millionaires and city supporters why don't they just fund their own household leaflet?
It seems eurosceptic MPs are now threatening to block all legislation and use the 12 seat majority as a battering ram against Dave. Early GE after the referendum?
Any 'Conservative' MP doing that should be ashamed of themselves. All it does is help Labour.
Such Euroloons (and their supporters on here) are doing all they can to hurt the country and usher in a Labour, Corbynite government. They're worse than bastards.
Or you could just say it's bad party management.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
Tory fan boys outraged at fact that not everybody is a robotic ar*e licking devotee that will follow regardless of what their heroes do.
Thanks but what is it for, I'm guessing the leaflet?
Yeah, the complaint is the remain side have been given effectively a free mail shot.
I remember the universal outrage when the same thing happens during SindyRef. Or didn't, I can't remember.
What happened? Did the No side get a free mail shot and Yes didn't? I would have thought it would have been the other way around given the Governments position in Scotland would have been for Yes.
UK Governemnt spent around £720,000 on a similar glossy multipage mailshot to Scottish homes during SindyRef. £720,000 is about 8% of £9 million which works out at a Scotland population share of this UK wide EURef mailshot.
Yes but didn't the Scottish government also do the same thing? So both campaigns had a mail like this? A pro-Yes one from the Scottish Government and a pro-No one from the UK Government.
The issue here is that it is imbalanced. The UK Government is sending a pro-Remain one while the official Leave campaign is forbidden by law from sending one out that costs the same.
I read "the farce goes on" and assumed it was about Cameron.
Let's be honest, his demise is nothing to do with events, its to do with judgement, time and again he exhibits poor judgement, his problems are entirely of his own making. He'll stagger on for a while, desperate to regain ground and credibility but regardless of the referendum outcome he's spectacularly shot himself in the foot.
Back in May as the pb tories were sneering and jeering 1 or 2 of us warned against hubris, him and Osborne are soiled goods.
Calls for Cameron's resignation are ludicrous.
Yes a sneaky lying forgetful PM is just what we need for sure.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
That said @AlastairMeeks (name sounds excellent when you pronounce it, spelling is an abomination to both man and god) The Electoral Commission did say it thought that that style of government mailshot shouldn't happen again at future referendums but amazingly the government decided not to change the rules in that regard.
Listen Roger- how long have we've been posting here- 12 years maybe.
I remember the momentous announcement when JackW bowed out of this site in 2005 I think- it was even picked up in the press with journalists asking who is JackW?
And it's taken you all this time to grasp JackW's technique!!!
2. He is giving you a choice so he respects you. Neither Lab (in) nor UKIP (out) would give you that choice.
He is giving you a choice because he was worried about losing his right flank to the kippers at the GE and was expecting to lose it in the subsequent negotiations with the LDs, and unexpectedly got stuck holding the baby.
Yes, yes and yes. And as a result...gave you a choice.
@CD13 If the government were arguing that we should leave the EU, I would expect it to explain its policy position to the public. It would be bizarre if it did not. Communication is a major part of government.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
I had a weird day yesterday when I was writing e-mails to an Alistair, an Alasdair and an Alastair pretty much at the same time. I am amazed that the EU has not thought this a suitable subject for regulation. Presumably after the referendum is out of the way....
@CD13 If the government were arguing that we should leave the EU, I would expect it to explain its policy position to the public. It would be bizarre if it did not. Communication is a major part of government.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
No the lack of coherence is because the government set time line means the official leave campaign hasn't been chosen yet and when it is chosen the spending cap will be in place forbidding it from doing a brochure like this. You're demanding coherence when there will be a single campaign soon but too late for anything like this or proper debate ... because of the government's time line
"Clinton has a 21-point advantage among Democrats with a strong attachment to the party, the poll found"
"while Sanders leads 61 percent to 32 percent among Democratic-leaning independents."
Closed primaries coming up after WY...
Indeed.
There's plenty of heat and noise in the Dem contest, although cold and quiet compared to the GOP, but the essentials of the Clinton/Sanders race remain the same. Sanders has to win over two thirds of the remaining pledged delegates within the PR framework to catch Hillary. It wont happen.
No, but the fact that she can't shake off a sepugenarian socialist shows just how weak a candidate she is. Two polls recently have given Sanders a national primaries lead, and the HuffPost average has her lead down to less than 5%.
Of course, national lead counts for little if it's in the wrong places (e.g. those that have already voted). Hillary will stumble over the line but only because her husband is popular with black voters; it's got little to do with her.
@Philip_Thompson Leave does not have a coherent policy position. It is therefore impossible to inform the public about it.
When the official "Leave" group is announced it will have to have a coherent policy which will also have to have many uncertainties about the future if Brexit is enacted. The group will have to be honest about these uncertainties but will have to convince that their goal of independence is worth some possible medium term losses by the public. Tough but necessary.
@CD13 If the government were arguing that we should leave the EU, I would expect it to explain its policy position to the public. It would be bizarre if it did not. Communication is a major part of government.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
I had a weird day yesterday when I was writing e-mails to an Alistair, an Alasdair and an Alastair pretty much at the same time. I am amazed that the EU has not thought this a suitable subject for regulation. Presumably after the referendum is out of the way....
I have a problem with my name being mis-spelt in the manner of a Blairite lickspittle.
My point is this ... the Government (or the part that controls things) has a viewpoint. There are contrary viewpoints. Were Leave flavour of the month in Government circles, would you be happy to see Leave propaganda being paid for by taxpayers?
If the answer is yes, I salute your consistency. Although that does open us up to Soviet style politics
If the answer is no, you'd be a hypocrite (aka a politician).
p.s. whilst I generally agree that so far most of the problem is the man's idiotic handling of this, which suggests a bigger whiff of dodgy dealings still to come out, I think some of the well-to-do on here are guilty of missing the main fallout in the public's eye:
He's a rich tosser
Cameron was more-than-tolerated for as long as he seemed decent. This airing of his family fortune and tax evasions just makes him look a rich tosser in most people's eyes.
That'll be why #resigncameron is now no1 Twitter trend
Twitter of course, as Corbynista will find out, is not representative of actual voters.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
If you are swayed by the Tory Remain ultra right wing fanboys on here you were NEVER ever going to vote LEAVE, just kidding yourself.
In the last few weeks I've gone from being undecided but inclined to vote Leave to being a Remain supporter. Every time I read PB I feel myself moving more strongly in that direction. Phrases like "monster EU" and fantasies about our being manipulated by a "euroloon cabal" might stiffen the morale of the devoted but..really...do they honestly believe that nonsense.
Yes they do. Many of us who live in the real world walk the pavements wondering whether HE or SHE is one of THEM. These strange consiracy theorists who spend so much of their time in a paranoid world where strange foreigners are out to get them. Maybe you need something like a Voight-Kampff machine
Is the French Riviera part of the real world ? It didn't feel like it when I was last at a trade faire there, the price of a goblet of beer suggested it was very far from the real world. Quite a lot of the "conspiracy theorists" you witter on about are international businessmen and travellers of one sort or another and mostly have a pretty wide experience of the world. Maybe it's the champagne socialists in their quaint little enclaves who are the ones out of touch with the world ?
The Labour party could be making such mischief at the minute- there are so many pots to shoot at. Jumping on the bandwagon of Cameron's father is not one for me.
No, it's them being bastards. There're a heck of a lot of other issues facing the country outside the EU, and legislation needs to be passed. Blocking legislation for reasons other than the legislation's merits does no-one any good.
They're loons who think the EU is more important than good governance. Well, if that's their vision of good governance then perhaps we'd be better off being fully run from Brussels ...
The referendum was a manifesto pledge. That the Tories are split on this issue does not alter the fact that Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the government should be getting on with the business of running the country. I'd argue it is those on the Remain side who are running around like headless chickens at the moment.
Osborne's performance since the GE has been nothing short of shambolic. You can shift the blame on to the backbenchers all you like but ultimately it is up to the government to get them onside. I'd argue that the conflicts that have arisen between the government and the backbenchers have had little to do with Europe and more to do with the fact that new Tories that have come in since 2010 are too scared of upsetting people.
If I was running Labour I'd be looking for an issue that there is already some Tory backbench sympathy for and putting forward a Supply Day motion about it - cancelling the compulsory academies policy or postponing the boundary review and seat reduction, say. Tory whips will struggle to appeal for blindfolded loyalty at the moment.
Thanks but what is it for, I'm guessing the leaflet?
Yeah, the complaint is the remain side have been given effectively a free mail shot.
I remember the universal outrage when the same thing happens during SindyRef. Or didn't, I can't remember.
What happened? Did the No side get a free mail shot and Yes didn't? I would have thought it would have been the other way around given the Governments position in Scotland would have been for Yes.
UK Governemnt spent around £720,000 on a similar glossy multipage mailshot to Scottish homes during SindyRef. £720,000 is about 8% of £9 million which works out at a Scotland population share of this UK wide EURef mailshot.
Yes but didn't the Scottish government also do the same thing? So both campaigns had a mail like this? A pro-Yes one from the Scottish Government and a pro-No one from the UK Government.
The issue here is that it is imbalanced. The UK Government is sending a pro-Remain one while the official Leave campaign is forbidden by law from sending one out that costs the same.
One campaign is muzzled, that is unreasonable.
There were multiple ones from the UK government and full civil service engaged etc
@DavidL A misspelt name is a long term hazard for any Alastair, but life certainly got a lot more complicated for me when my firm merged with a Scottish law firm in 2012.
There's always a faint note of disappointment when I speak with one of my Scottish partners for the first time and they hear my southern English accent.
@CD13 If the government were arguing that we should leave the EU, I would expect it to explain its policy position to the public. It would be bizarre if it did not. Communication is a major part of government.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
I had a weird day yesterday when I was writing e-mails to an Alistair, an Alasdair and an Alastair pretty much at the same time. I am amazed that the EU has not thought this a suitable subject for regulation. Presumably after the referendum is out of the way....
I have a problem with my name being mis-spelt in the manner of a Blairite lickspittle.
I have to confess if I was writing Rentool without a hint I would probably put a "u" in it. I can understand why that might be distressing for you.
Comments
Good governance can go out of the window, but we'll still be successful as we'll be free of the EU's evil shackles.
Come on, I want to vote leave, but these sorts of arguments just make leave seem silly.
I am not surprised they are "wailing and gurning" as you arrogantly put it.
Can any democratic process be fair where one side gets a free tax payers "bung" to do a full leaflet run while the opposing view has no such advantage. The governments argument that it has a duty to inform the public is quite simply bollocks. No doubt tax payers money is already being lined up for Remains TV "information" frightener adverts in the run up to the referendum.
What should have happened if they wished to inform the public was put both sides of the argument on the same leaflet with no interference on BOO's statements. Better still not spend 9 million quid at all or if they had to give the money to Great Ormonde st , buy the RNLI some rescue kit or something similar.
What are you unhappy with modern, engaged Conservatives for? Whaddaya got?
For shame .. for shame ..
It's pointless claiming we all win from being in the EU. Some do, some don't. If you're one of the don'ts why would you vote against your own economic interest let alone your emotional one ?
I'm assuming it's going to get even dirtier too. My heart sinks at the prospect. More previously loyal Tories are simply going to feel that this isn't what we voted for nor feel able to swallow it. Whether Remain wins or loses, I think Cameron has damaged himself and the Party totally unnecessarily.
By the way Is that the same department that's saying don't use the word rape in criminal arrests so they can hide the true scale of the problem from the public?
This can be safely ignored I think.
Edit to add: here's the data http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
If the Tories were producing pro-conservative or anti-labour propaganda with tax-payers money, they'd be shouting 'Cheat' all over the airwaves. And Jezza is a man of principle, isn't he?
Well, yes, but only highly selective principles.
The one trait that unites all politicians - hypocrisy.
If Leave had an alternative coherent policy position, there would have been a good case for making sure the public were fully informed about it. Its failure to put a prospectus to the public is lamentable - but most Leave campaigners actually seem to prefer that state of affairs. It's not as though they haven't had long enough to prepare.
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to JNN the contents of the latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection :
Should The United Kingdom Remain A Member Of The European Union Or Leave The European Union?
Remain 53% (-1) .. Leave 47% (+1)
Turnout Projection 61.5% (+0.5)
Changes from 5th April.
......................................................................
WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE4EU - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors For European Union
That's no bad thing as there are both left wing, protectionist, outside the EU futures for the UK, and free-market futures.
But it will, of course, leave one group of us Brexiters as quite upset.
They've babies throwing toys out of their pram.
And BTW, they're not offering anything to that large slab of the electorate; they're using them by promising the Earth so they win their vote on the EU.
Having an argument that people should be informed is one thing. Spending more in one go than the official Leave campaign will be allowed to spend in-between when it is picked by the Electoral Commission and the referendum date is something else entirely.
Surely if you want the Leave campaign to make the public be more informed then it should get the same budget and send a leaflet out too?
Is the government weak because it is opposed so vehemently by so many of its supporters on this policy? Yes of course it is. Does that mean that it does not have a policy? No of course it doesn't.
A: I want to be governed by those I can vote out of power (within my own demos - the UK); or
B: I think governments should not spend more than they tax over the cycle so we don't go bust; or
C: I don't like paying tax any more than the next person does but accept that I must - so get really very peeved when the likes of George Soros and Starbucks manage to pay essentially none at all.
Admitting just as many disagree with them is an inconvenience they'd prefer to ignore.
Shareholdings: Interests in shareholdings held by the Member, either personally, or with or on behalf of the
Member’s spouse or partner or dependent children, in any public or private company or other body which
are:
(a) greater than 15 per cent of the issued share capital of the company or body; or
(b) 15 per cent or less of the issued share capital, but greater in value than the current parliamentary salary.
The nature of the company’s business in each case should be registered.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmcode/1885/1885.pdf
Investments in funds need not normally be registered individually, though you must disclose anything relevant to anything you say. So if he made a speech about offshore funds before 2010, he should have mentioned it then.
Nice try at deflection from my actual point onto the question you preferred to answer that I hadn't actually raised.
Not in the least. In fact they should put their policy. The problem here, as you very well know, is that the public is actually "less informed" about the situation because the government only put the alternatives in a totally negative way. The issue is they have had a free 9 million quid to do just that so its not about "being prepared" at all.
If one side or the other had that advantage in any democratic election in this country it would be a scandal. No doubt you would also be happy for Labour to have 9 million quid "binged" to them at the next GE which the Tories will be Denied.
Neither side has a monopoly on either hyperbole or insults.
2. He is giving you a choice so he respects you. Neither Lab (in) nor UKIP (out) would give you that choice.
3. The EU is not a monster it is a clumsy attempt to bring peace and harmony to nations. And widget specifications.
4. Yes he didn't bring the debt down and should be criticised. Please refer to pt. 1.
5. The Tory Rebel Alliance? ROTFLMAO. As they say.
Mr. W, I have struck you across the face with the Enormo-Haddock of Truth!
Give me a peaceful fishy tax avoiding REMAIN champion any day of the week !! ..
He clearly though has rejected his background somewhere along the way and is a thoroughly decent man. His commitment to overseas aid, and I think to the NHS are real. His championing of the EU referendum is something to behold for Europhiles like myself. Also, if it hadn't been for the banking crisis, he would have maintained Labour's broadly social democratic commitment to public spending. His approach to the migrant crisis is based on common sense rather than anything more sinister.
The stuff that has come out this week with his dad just proves to me even more how far Cameron has grown away from his background.
He's obviously not a control freak either- which has got him into trouble with like of Lansley and now Hunt who have managed to score some own goals with the NHS.
The Tory party is probably going to struggle to recover after the EU referendum; and the Labour party faultlines with Corbyn as leader are just unsustainable.
Something tells me that British politics is going to go through some kind of major sea change this year- and I for one hope that Cameron remains on the scene for many more years.
"Some people in the UK still have a sense of fair play - and that is a worthwhile button to press."
I remember in 1975, feeling the same. I was in favour of staying then, but the blatant partisanship made me uneasy. At least, I had the principles to see the bias and hypocrisy (pats younger self on back).
Can any remainer justify this? And I don't mean ...I favour remain so it's OK by me.
Mr Meeks, are you happy to win unfairly? Would you feel the same if Leave had this advantage?
By all means give the voters your version of the background and facts - but not with public money.
"while Sanders leads 61 percent to 32 percent among Democratic-leaning independents."
Closed primaries coming up after WY...
But on your earlier point that government has a clear and precise polcy , of course it doesn't. It is split and openly so. A section of the government has a short term political aim, the whole of the remainers in government have as many angles as the Leavers.
Having said that, this is now a full blown media witch-hunt. Is there a more nauseating, stomach churning sight, than Tom Watson and John Mann hitting the air waves with their phoney, sanctimonious, political point scoring?
I'M SICK OF IT.
Let's have a retrospective petition on the SINDY leaflet. Better still let's carpet bomb Ayrshire with turnips !!
A Tory friend (but not one with any special inside info) suggested last night that the timing of the leaflet announcement was a dead cat strategy to distract from the Cameron story. If so, it doesn't work, because the media will always choose a story involving a well-known person over a process story. But it may inadvertently work the other way - the row about the leaflet is obscured by the row about Cameron.
To put in a spending cap below what you think is necessary then complain about incoherence is insulting. Either the money does not need to be spent so the government shouldn't be spending it ... or the money does need to be spent so the official leave campaign would need to spend it too.
I think the mind set that Cameron and Osborne show on a variety of matters is so far removed from his father's generation as to be unrecognisable. My guess would be that he and Samantha had even forgotten they had this investment and it was simply sold on the wash up when he was preparing to become PM by realising all his shareholdings. This is a case where the sins of the fathers (and in fairness it was thought of as more of a part of the great game than a sin at the time) really have nothing to do with the son.
As @Alistair (great name, shame about the spelling) points out, the government has explained its policy to voters in a previous referendum. On that occasion, the opposite side had a clear and coherent policy that was also explained to voters.
Since lack of coherence on the Leave side is a feature not a bug, they have to accept the consequences of that feature. Leave have not attempted to put together a prospectus. They therefore cannot complain that it is not being sent to the British public.
I remember the momentous announcement when JackW bowed out of this site in 2005 I think- it was even picked up in the press with journalists asking who is JackW?
And it's taken you all this time to grasp JackW's technique!!!
There's plenty of heat and noise in the Dem contest, although cold and quiet compared to the GOP, but the essentials of the Clinton/Sanders race remain the same. Sanders has to win over two thirds of the remaining pledged delegates within the PR framework to catch Hillary. It wont happen.
The issue here is that it is imbalanced. The UK Government is sending a pro-Remain one while the official Leave campaign is forbidden by law from sending one out that costs the same.
One campaign is muzzled, that is unreasonable.
S'called politics.
Of course, national lead counts for little if it's in the wrong places (e.g. those that have already voted). Hillary will stumble over the line but only because her husband is popular with black voters; it's got little to do with her.
My point is this ... the Government (or the part that controls things) has a viewpoint. There are contrary viewpoints. Were Leave flavour of the month in Government circles, would you be happy to see Leave propaganda being paid for by taxpayers?
If the answer is yes, I salute your consistency. Although that does open us up to Soviet style politics
If the answer is no, you'd be a hypocrite (aka a politician).
I have no problem with Remain and Leave making personal remarks about each other.
It's when Leave frame the substance of the argument in terms of "EUSSR" and "EU monster" that I part company.
The Labour party could be making such mischief at the minute- there are so many pots to shoot at. Jumping on the bandwagon of Cameron's father is not one for me.
There's always a faint note of disappointment when I speak with one of my Scottish partners for the first time and they hear my southern English accent.
http://i.imgur.com/uGEddqig.jpg