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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A betting market on the size of Donald Trump’s non flaccid

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  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    That's the match then. Windies bowl first.
  • Options
    Eoin Morgan, you useless tosser.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    Despite being in favour of soft power - its the rising number of stories like this that makes me wish to chop the DfiD budget. This isn't helping anyone.
    The choice of recipients has often proven unwise. For example, Britain is the second largest bilateral aid donor to Tanzania, where the opposition recently boycotted an election on the island of Zanzibar. Today we report that the US, which has a commitment to democracy as a precondition to an aid programme to the country, announced that it would be withdrawing £331 million of development funds in protest at Tanzania’s authoritarian turn. Britain, by contrast, has made no indication that its assistance will stop. This is typical. Last year, Paul Kagame, the president of Rwanda, rewrote his nation’s constitution to keep himself in power. Dfid carried on as normal.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/02/time-to-end-the-foreign-aid-profligacy/
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Pong said:

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Wisconsin has suffered a great loss of jobs and trade, but if I win, all of the bad things happening in the U.S. will be rapidly reversed!

    How is this man about to win the GOP nomination?

    It makes no sense.

    He makes no sense.

    It's the sort of thing a 10 year old would say in his pitch to become primary school prefect.

    It's at that level of logic.

    Dear God.
    I suspect his supporters would cut him some slack if there are a few little practical difficulties - the guy's on our side, he's doing his best, it's the damned Congress/Supreme Court/Muslims getting in the way.
    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    For those interested in the works of the Libertarian Party and wondering about the generic 3rd choices between Hillary and the GOP, here are the frontrunner candidates for their nomination:

    Garry Johnson:
    Former republican Governor of New Mexico, 2012 Libertarian nominee got 0.99% then, he has the most extreme Ron Paul policies.

    Austin Petersen:
    Founder and CEO of Stonegait LLC, generic Ron Paul policies.

    Darryl Perry:
    Owner and Managing Editor of Free Press Publications, wants to abolish the USA, enough said.

    John McAfee:
    Founder of McAfee, famous for the notorious case of the murder of his neighbours and his escape from the police to Guatemala, if you think Trump is crazy well you haven't heard of McAfee.

    In short the policies of the Libertarian party are:
    Abolishing all taxes and government, abolish all forms of social security and pensions, legalize prostitution and drugs.

    So as you can see they are appealing to an extremely small slice of the population, hence they struggle to get more than 1%.

    It is interesting how large a difference there is between US and UK strands of Libertarianism. For all that I often claim the UK and Europe are culturally and politically very different it is undeniable that British Libertarianism is significantly influenced by continental philosophies which I think moderate it markedly when compared to the US version.
    The typical establishment Republican is the Old Man of OCP from Robocop.
    The typical american Libertarian are the ones under the Old Man inside OCP from Robocop (mostly the bad guys from the movie).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    MTimT said:

    Pong said:

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Wisconsin has suffered a great loss of jobs and trade, but if I win, all of the bad things happening in the U.S. will be rapidly reversed!

    How is this man about to win the GOP nomination?

    It makes no sense.

    He makes no sense.

    It's the sort of thing a 10 year old would say in his pitch to become primary school prefect.

    It's at that level of logic.

    Dear God.
    I suspect his supporters would cut him some slack if there are a few little practical difficulties - the guy's on our side, he's doing his best, it's the damned Congress/Supreme Court/Muslims getting in the way.
    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.
    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336

    Eoin Morgan, you useless tosser.

    In fairness, he was against a master that has won 10 in a row.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    Oh lord.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Despite being in favour of soft power - its the rising number of stories like this that makes me wish to chop the DfiD budget. This isn't helping anyone.

    The choice of recipients has often proven unwise. For example, Britain is the second largest bilateral aid donor to Tanzania, where the opposition recently boycotted an election on the island of Zanzibar. Today we report that the US, which has a commitment to democracy as a precondition to an aid programme to the country, announced that it would be withdrawing £331 million of development funds in protest at Tanzania’s authoritarian turn. Britain, by contrast, has made no indication that its assistance will stop. This is typical. Last year, Paul Kagame, the president of Rwanda, rewrote his nation’s constitution to keep himself in power. Dfid carried on as normal.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/02/time-to-end-the-foreign-aid-profligacy/

    Whether we're spending our full budget, a bigger budget or a smaller budget the money needs to be spent wisely. The issue here is quality not quantity.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    Pong said:

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Wisconsin has suffered a great loss of jobs and trade, but if I win, all of the bad things happening in the U.S. will be rapidly reversed!

    How is this man about to win the GOP nomination?

    It makes no sense.

    He makes no sense.

    It's the sort of thing a 10 year old would say in his pitch to become primary school prefect.

    It's at that level of logic.

    Dear God.
    I suspect his supporters would cut him some slack if there are a few little practical difficulties - the guy's on our side, he's doing his best, it's the damned Congress/Supreme Court/Muslims getting in the way.
    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.
    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    All of which is irrelevant as Kasich will not get the nomination. (BTW, he would have been my choice)
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:


    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.

    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    Is there any polling evidence for the proposition that (beyond Republican primary voters) Trump does particularly well with white working class males? I know there's evidence he does badly with everybody else, but that's not the same thing.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    And 3 months before the AV referendum it had it 50/50.
    And now they have Remain 51/49.

    3 months out tells us nothing, it's the long term trend that matters.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,025
    MTimT said:

    Pong said:

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Wisconsin has suffered a great loss of jobs and trade, but if I win, all of the bad things happening in the U.S. will be rapidly reversed!

    How is this man about to win the GOP nomination?

    It makes no sense.

    He makes no sense.

    It's the sort of thing a 10 year old would say in his pitch to become primary school prefect.

    It's at that level of logic.

    Dear God.
    I suspect his supporters would cut him some slack if there are a few little practical difficulties - the guy's on our side, he's doing his best, it's the damned Congress/Supreme Court/Muslims getting in the way.
    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.
    That is excellent analysis. But I must admit, I fear that he has a very hard 43% base, but will struggle to win over undecideds. In particular, I think he'll lose women by a massive margin.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    Unbelievable.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:


    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.

    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    Is there any polling evidence for the proposition that (beyond Republican primary voters) Trump does particularly well with white working class males? I know there's evidence he does badly with everybody else, but that's not the same thing.
    The main evidence that I can see, and I have not looked hard at all, is the massive increase in participation in the GOP primaries over the 2012 cycle. But that only proves that the most engaged are engaging more, not that he is increasing his pool in the electorate at large.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    I think the only interesting question is whether the GOP would ever choose someone other than Trump or Cruz. My answer is no, but the markets say otherwise.

    I think we only get to a contested, let alone brokered, convention, if the powers that be unite behind Cruz. From there to dumping him seems a big jump.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    Our spinners are going to be deadly on this strip, especially on day 4 or 5.

    This is test cricket, yeah?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    Pong said:

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Wisconsin has suffered a great loss of jobs and trade, but if I win, all of the bad things happening in the U.S. will be rapidly reversed!

    How is this man about to win the GOP nomination?

    It makes no sense.

    He makes no sense.

    It's the sort of thing a 10 year old would say in his pitch to become primary school prefect.

    It's at that level of logic.

    Dear God.
    I suspect his supporters would cut him some slack if there are a few little practical difficulties - the guy's on our side, he's doing his best, it's the damned Congress/Supreme Court/Muslims getting in the way.
    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful busines

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.
    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    All of which is irrelevant as Kasich will not get the nomination. (BTW, he would have been my choice)
    Well that is true
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    DavidL said:

    Unbelievable.

    Maybe some muppet told the team that losing the toss meant losing the match.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:


    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.

    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    Is there any polling evidence for the proposition that (beyond Republican primary voters) Trump does particularly well with white working class males? I know there's evidence he does badly with everybody else, but that's not the same thing.
    He polls best in general election polls with non college educated white males
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    And 3 months before the AV referendum it had it 50/50.
    And now they have Remain 51/49.

    3 months out tells us nothing, it's the long term trend that matters.
    The long term trend at this point in indyref was almost exactly right in terms of the final result
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    If you want to compare the referendums it's best to use the long term numbers and trends.

    In the scottish referendum NO never dropped bellow 41, Yes only started to push into the 40's within the last 2 months.
    There was a hard core electorate for NO under any circumstances, which carried the day.

    In the case of the AV referendum, it started of with an almost 2-1 advantage for AV and they ended up losing by 2-1.
    It was obvious that the popularity of AV was linked to the popularity of the people who presented it, as the LD plunged so did AV.

    In the case of the EU referendum it started with an almost 2-1 advantage for Remain and now they are 50/50.
    It is obvious that the popularity of Remain is linked to the popularity of the people who present it, as the government's number go so will Remain.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    If the answer’s 3/1 – welcome to the club. :lol:
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:


    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.

    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    Is there any polling evidence for the proposition that (beyond Republican primary voters) Trump does particularly well with white working class males? I know there's evidence he does badly with everybody else, but that's not the same thing.
    He polls best in general election polls with non college educated white males
    Compared to how he polls with other groups yes, but like I say that's a different question.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:


    I think it is more to do with most of the electorate choosing their politics by proxies, rather than by detailed consideration of policy proposals of the candidate. In this case, Trump has chosen two very powerful proxies:

    1. I am a successful businessman, a winner. I can run the country well and make it a winner again. Very powerful with those who see America's status in the world as in retreat and with those who have not benefited from the economic recovery (i.e. a lot of people).
    2. I am not a professional politician and I speak the truth. The more vulgar my speech, the truer it is; the less professional politician it is, the more I am standing up for the voter. This rings the bells for those who believe that major problem with America is self-serving professional politicians who use government for their own benefit and use political correctness to stifle the voice of the people. Again, a lot of voters.

    It may come across as very simplistic and junior school, but if it is effective, as it has been so far, it is as sophisticated as it needs to be. Burdening this message with reasoned, detailed policy proposals would only dilute and weaken the effect.

    In short, whether consciously or not, Trump's campaign is demonstrating a far more sophisticated understanding of voter engagement than those of policy wonks Clinton and Kasich.

    I think that this was the only route available to Trump which could have won him the nomination. Whether it can work to win the General, I don't know. It has a reasonable chance - if he manages to win back the white voters Romney lost and gain some first time voters from the male WWC, then it has a reasonable chance of winning a big electoral college victory. But there are a lot of ifs. And it makes the prospect of a Trump candidacy no more palatable knowing that his campaign has been shrewd.

    Trump engages white working class males but Kasich generally beats Hillary in most polls while Hillary beats Trump
    Is there any polling evidence for the proposition that (beyond Republican primary voters) Trump does particularly well with white working class males? I know there's evidence he does badly with everybody else, but that's not the same thing.
    He polls best in general election polls with non college educated white males
    Compared to how he polls with other groups yes, but like I say that's a different question.
    Exactly. Is he polling exceptionally well with them, or just least worst with them?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Buttler!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Any idea what a par first innings would be in this T20?
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Any idea what a par first innings would be in this T20?

    at least 180, 200+ should be the target
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,025
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    And 3 months before the AV referendum it had it 50/50.
    And now they have Remain 51/49.

    3 months out tells us nothing, it's the long term trend that matters.
    I'm not sure there has been much of a trend: six months ago, the on-line polls had small leads for Leave, and the phone polls had big leads for Remain. Now, we've seen the (obviously) wrong big phone leads come in.

    We can take heart that Project Fear has been a failure so far. And I also like the differential enthusiasm between the groups. But on the other hand, we all know that Don't Knows tend to go for the status quo. What I want to be seeing is the number of DKs falling by 3% per week, with 1% of that going to Remain, and 2% to Leave.
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    I hope W.Indies win - it would be a great shot in the arm for them.

    England is a strange one - they don't really want to embrace the changes that have happened in cricket such as the IPL and India being the new home of cricket - colonial mentality I guess...
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    And 3 months before the AV referendum it had it 50/50.
    And now they have Remain 51/49.

    3 months out tells us nothing, it's the long term trend that matters.
    I'm not sure there has been much of a trend: six months ago, the on-line polls had small leads for Leave, and the phone polls had big leads for Remain. Now, we've seen the (obviously) wrong big phone leads come in.

    We can take heart that Project Fear has been a failure so far. And I also like the differential enthusiasm between the groups. But on the other hand, we all know that Don't Knows tend to go for the status quo. What I want to be seeing is the number of DKs falling by 3% per week, with 1% of that going to Remain, and 2% to Leave.
    I see no evidence that the phone polls are or were obviously wrong. Last year the phone polls were more accurate than the deluge of online polls but were frequently seen as outliers due to an assumption the online polls couldn't all be wrong (which they were).

    EDIT: Not to say they're not wrong and right now I hope they were but its not obvious to me that they definitely were.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    Speedy said:

    If you want to compare the referendums it's best to use the long term numbers and trends.

    In the scottish referendum NO never dropped bellow 41, Yes only started to push into the 40's within the last 2 months.
    There was a hard core electorate for NO under any circumstances, which carried the day.

    In the case of the AV referendum, it started of with an almost 2-1 advantage for AV and they ended up losing by 2-1.
    It was obvious that the popularity of AV was linked to the popularity of the people who presented it, as the LD plunged so did AV.

    In the case of the EU referendum it started with an almost 2-1 advantage for Remain and now they are 50/50.
    It is obvious that the popularity of Remain is linked to the popularity of the people who present it, as the government's number go so will Remain.

    Half the Tory Party back Leave Corbyn backs Remain so that does not necessarily follow
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Eurofanatic David Cameron has been told by the PM of New Zealand that Britain seems to be forgetting its history with New Zealand.
    "I said to him it was an amazingly strong and warm relationship and Britain is still our number one source of migration.

    "We are at the core ... a British colony and I thought there was an argument that New Zealanders could be treated in a way which reflected that."

    Mr Key said Mr Cameron assured him he was "going to go away and have a look at that".

    Asked if he had reminded Mr Cameron that New Zealand had voted to keep the Union Jack on its flag, he said: "Good grace stopped me pointing that out."

    Britain's big issue was that it had a huge amount of migration, from Europe, that it could not control.

    "But we are migrants who have always pulled our weight in the UK and why should we be penalised for the migration policies of being part of Europe?"
    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11615484
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    edited April 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    We can take heart that Project Fear has been a failure so far. And I also like the differential enthusiasm between the groups. But on the other hand, we all know that Don't Knows tend to go for the status quo. What I want to be seeing is the number of DKs falling by 3% per week, with 1% of that going to Remain, and 2% to Leave.

    The problem there, Robert, is that the status quo (ante) could be either as we are now, or as we were before.

    So we are none the wiser.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Any idea what a par first innings would be in this T20?

    at least 180, 200+ should be the target
    Thanks. Half way to the target then with 7 overs and 6 wickets remaining.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
    Does that mean that they were right and the campaign had no effect, or they were wrong by an amount that was exactly cancelled out by the swing?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,857
    murali_s said:

    I hope W.Indies win - it would be a great shot in the arm for them.

    England is a strange one - they don't really want to embrace the changes that have happened in cricket such as the IPL and India being the new home of cricket - colonial mentality I guess...

    Why cannot it not just be conservative thinking and still, unlike most places, liking Test cricket? Why does colonialism need to enter into it at all?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leicester have to be nailed on favourites now surely for the league? 7 points clear with only 6 games to go. They have a tough run-in but four victories guarantees the title even if Spurs win all their remaining games.
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    HYUFD said:

    Remain leads in a poll for the Independent today by GQRR 45%-40%, do not forget either that middle class voters are more likely to vote than working class voters and middle class voters back Remain (you could equally argue Leave leaning working class voters will be distracted by the European Football championships)
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-could-hold-key-to-eu-referendum-vote-polls-shows-a6965751.html

    Fair points, although as I understand it those 45%-40% figures are raw and not adjusted for voting intention, social class, or any other axis of differentiation.

    The holding of the vote during the Glastonbury music festival may push it out of the thoughts of many young people, who according to pollsters are more likely to vote Remain.

    Could the Anti-Metrication board, set up in 1970, get the last laugh?

    They were founded by John Michell, one of the big promoters of "New Age" interest in Glastonbury, a long-time hippy Atlantisist (spelling intended), and later an open follower of the fascist "radical traditionalist" Julius Evola (a Europeanist, but hardly in the sense of today's EU).

    I'm a leftwinger and I don't find the prospect appetising in the least, but it may well come about.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    WI beat Kohli, can they beat Root?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Time to buy Trump again:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-campaign-loves-north-dakota-delegate-slate-nabs-endorsement-n549756

    He was even endorsed by the only Representative of N.Dakota.

    I expected that Trump would get 0 delegates from N.Dakota, I was very wrong.
    He may balance his loses from Wisconsin from there.

    This campaign is a rollercoaster.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    kle4 said:

    murali_s said:

    I hope W.Indies win - it would be a great shot in the arm for them.

    England is a strange one - they don't really want to embrace the changes that have happened in cricket such as the IPL and India being the new home of cricket - colonial mentality I guess...

    Why cannot it not just be conservative thinking and still, unlike most places, liking Test cricket? Why does colonialism need to enter into it at all?
    I've never understood why I'm supposed to care about another country's domestic competition.

    As for the new home of cricket, that is laughable as long as they're holding the game back by obstructing DRS.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
    That's random number out of a hat though - given enough random samples and someone will 'get it right'.

    However, given that 21% were don't know and turnout was above 79% ( and especially as turnout can never be 100% due to double registration and the like) that means proclaiming they got it right based on people who knew how they were going to vote 100 days out is spurious at best.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,857

    kle4 said:

    murali_s said:

    I hope W.Indies win - it would be a great shot in the arm for them.

    England is a strange one - they don't really want to embrace the changes that have happened in cricket such as the IPL and India being the new home of cricket - colonial mentality I guess...

    Why cannot it not just be conservative thinking and still, unlike most places, liking Test cricket? Why does colonialism need to enter into it at all?
    I've never understood why I'm supposed to care about another country's domestic competition.

    As for the new home of cricket, that is laughable as long as they're holding the game back by obstructing DRS.
    I like the IPL as I like T20 (though I prefer Test Cricket), but being angry at the 'home of cricket' thing is just nonsense, as that has no definition anyway.

    Anyway, looks like the current good run is over, but that's fine, getting to the final was good.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
    That's random number out of a hat though - given enough random samples and someone will 'get it right'.

    However, given that 21% were don't know and turnout was above 79% ( and especially as turnout can never be 100% due to double registration and the like) that means proclaiming they got it right based on people who knew how they were going to vote 100 days out is spurious at best.
    Indeed, 'just so' stories crafted to the facts after an event have no predictive value.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,025
    PClipp said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We can take heart that Project Fear has been a failure so far. And I also like the differential enthusiasm between the groups. But on the other hand, we all know that Don't Knows tend to go for the status quo. What I want to be seeing is the number of DKs falling by 3% per week, with 1% of that going to Remain, and 2% to Leave.

    The problem there, Robert, is that the status quo (ante) could be either as we are now, or as we were before.

    So we are none the wiser.
    I disagree. The status quo is as we are now.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
    That's random number out of a hat though - given enough random samples and someone will 'get it right'.

    However, given that 21% were don't know and turnout was above 79% ( and especially as turnout can never be 100% due to double registration and the like) that means proclaiming they got it right based on people who knew how they were going to vote 100 days out is spurious at best.
    Nonetheless it shows polling even this far out cannot be dismissed
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Punters know that phone polls are better for Remain and Matt Singh says the phone polls are more accurate.

    Punters BELIEVE phone polls are more accurate.

    The internet was, however, far more accurate in identifying the Right/Left divide last May.

    It's also the case that the majority of polls underscored the independence position at this point in both the 2014 Euros and 2014 SIndy.

    Opinium 10/10 to vote (65% turnout) Leave 54 / Remain 46.
    ICM had it 55 No 45 Yes at about this point on indyref and that was the result
    ICM was

    Yes: 34%
    No: 45%
    Undecided: 21%

    Which, ignoring the 1 in 5 people who were undecided, was 43/57.
    3 months before polling it was 55 45 excluding undecided
    That was fieldwork starting 101 days before polling, the one I quoted was 73 days before polling.

    We are currently 81 days from EURef poll which is why I went or that one.
    The point is the result was predicted by ICM almost exactly months before polling
    Does that mean that they were right and the campaign had no effect, or they were wrong by an amount that was exactly cancelled out by the swing?
    The former, campaigns rarely have a major impact
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,075
    John_N said:

    HYUFD said:

    Remain leads in a poll for the Independent today by GQRR 45%-40%, do not forget either that middle class voters are more likely to vote than working class voters and middle class voters back Remain (you could equally argue Leave leaning working class voters will be distracted by the European Football championships)
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-could-hold-key-to-eu-referendum-vote-polls-shows-a6965751.html

    Fair points, although as I understand it those 45%-40% figures are raw and not adjusted for voting intention, social class, or any other axis of differentiation.

    The holding of the vote during the Glastonbury music festival may push it out of the thoughts of many young people, who according to pollsters are more likely to vote Remain.

    Could the Anti-Metrication board, set up in 1970, get the last laugh?

    They were founded by John Michell, one of the big promoters of "New Age" interest in Glastonbury, a long-time hippy Atlantisist (spelling intended), and later an open follower of the fascist "radical traditionalist" Julius Evola (a Europeanist, but hardly in the sense of today's EU).

    I'm a leftwinger and I don't find the prospect appetising in the least, but it may well come about.

    The poll should be before Glastonbury
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    edited April 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    What I want to be seeing is the number of DKs falling by 3% per week, with 1% of that going to Remain, and 2% to Leave.

    Falling from the 4% reported by ORB (11-14 March) or from the 30% reported by TNS (24-29 March)?

  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    HYUFD said:

    John_N said:

    HYUFD said:

    Remain leads in a poll for the Independent today by GQRR 45%-40%, do not forget either that middle class voters are more likely to vote than working class voters and middle class voters back Remain (you could equally argue Leave leaning working class voters will be distracted by the European Football championships)
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-could-hold-key-to-eu-referendum-vote-polls-shows-a6965751.html

    Fair points, although as I understand it those 45%-40% figures are raw and not adjusted for voting intention, social class, or any other axis of differentiation.

    The holding of the vote during the Glastonbury music festival may push it out of the thoughts of many young people, who according to pollsters are more likely to vote Remain.

    Could the Anti-Metrication board, set up in 1970, get the last laugh?

    They were founded by John Michell, one of the big promoters of "New Age" interest in Glastonbury, a long-time hippy Atlantisist (spelling intended), and later an open follower of the fascist "radical traditionalist" Julius Evola (a Europeanist, but hardly in the sense of today's EU).

    I'm a leftwinger and I don't find the prospect appetising in the least, but it may well come about.

    The poll should be before Glastonbury
    Glastonbury this year will run from Wednesday 22 to Sunday 26 June.
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    My attitude to the polls is to ignore the DKs when the reported figures are for Leave-Remain-DK (I mean, seriously, should we talk of support for DK fluctuating from 4% to 30%?), but to take stock of any adjusted figures that take account of voter-reported likelihood to vote in a more sophisticated way than asking all respondents "Will yer vote Leave? Will yer vote Remain? Or don't yer know?"
This discussion has been closed.