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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited March 2016

    Patrick said:

    We urgently need a weaker Pound as we reach a new all time high current account deficit:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

    Roll on the Brexit!

    Mr. Patrick,

    I have been hearing about the need for a weaker pound for as long as I can remember, and, overall, in my lifetime the pound has become a lot weaker as has our industrial base. The plea that a weak pound helps exporters seems reasonable and is frequently parrotted; unfortunately it seems never to work out that way.

    Contrast the UK's long term performance with that of Germany. The latter, until the advent of the Euro, built one of the most successful exporting economies on the planet on the basis of an ever strengthening currency. If Germany can do it why can't we?

    I suspect the answer lies in the piss poor management and short-termism of our managerial class, but I stand to be corrected.
    The answer to that is very simple, Britain has an overvalued currency when there is an asset bubble (it's the City effect).

    Germany on the other hand entered the euro with a devalued currency, and the higher inflation rate in other eurozone countries kept the real value of the german currency cheaper than what would otherwise have been.
    Germany has a currency that is now 40% undervalued hence its gigantic trade surpluses that are bigger than even China's and is growing all the time since the eurozone was created.

    The world cant compete with a country that has a permanent undervalued currency, thus as long as the eurozone exists world trade imbalances are going to grow until either the eurozone disintegrates or the world economy is hit so hard that free trade is abandoned, thus making currency manipulations obsolete.

    The economic case for Brexit is also created by those imbalances, that Britain cannot compete on a plain level with Germany, due to the eurozone.
    The only way to fix this is either devalue sterling by 40% and fix it with the euro, or you leave the EU to restrict German imports.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Patrick said:

    House price problem = 100% due to insane political restrictions on the supply of land (aka Planning Laws). The trouble is that to resolve will require upsetting Middle England - the ones George needs to get elected party leader. Ditto pensioners, esp wealthy pensioners.

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.
  • Options
    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627
    Pulpstar said:

    Martin Lewis gives his two pennies on the EU ref:

    "Dear Martin, can you please let us know the straight facts of what'll happen if we leave the EU?"

    I've been swamped with many people asking me this question. So I want to answer.... "no I can't!" And if anyone else tells you they can, they are a liar.

    The EU issue isn't black or white. I find it very frustrating that most politicians who are pro-EU say all elements of the EU are good; and most politicians who are anti say all elements are bad. Neither is true, like the rest of life it's a mix.

    There are no simple answers. What'll happen if we leave is uncertain. What will happen if we stay is more certain - though still not without some questions and risks.

    Don't read 'uncertain' as bad. Read it simply as uncertain.

    It may be that leaving makes the UK a tiger economy in control of its own destiny, and we reap the benefits; or we end up on the outskirts of everything, ignored and struggling with trade. Or more likely somewhere in between.

    You have to make this decision based on your political attitude to Europe, how risk averse you are and what your gut instinct tells you.

    And even after that you need to accept you may make a good decision and have a bad outcome. Or make a bad decision then have a good one.

    Martin

    Fairest EUref comment I've seen yet.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Patrick said:

    We urgently need a weaker Pound as we reach a new all time high current account deficit:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

    Roll on the Brexit!

    Mr. Patrick,

    I have been hearing about the need for a weaker pound for as long as I can remember, and, overall, in my lifetime the pound has become a lot weaker as has our industrial base. The plea that a weak pound helps exporters seems reasonable and is frequently parrotted; unfortunately it seems never to work out that way.

    Contrast the UK's long term performance with that of Germany. The latter, until the advent of the Euro, built one of the most successful exporting economies on the planet on the basis of an ever strengthening currency. If Germany can do it why can't we?

    I suspect the answer lies in the piss poor management and short-termism of our managerial class, but I stand to be corrected.
    I agree. Serial devaluation is just feeding the addiction rather than tackling the problem.
    Before we get too carried away it might be worth pointing out that the trade-weighted value of sterling is currently not very far from where it was 30 years ago and also pretty close to the average level of the last 30 years.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Speedy said:

    Patrick said:

    We urgently need a weaker Pound as we reach a new all time high current account deficit:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

    Roll on the Brexit!

    Yikes.
    7% of GDP is a new all time record, it's on the same level the USA reached just before they crashed in 2008.

    The famous large double deficits (budget deficit and current account deficit) really point to an upcoming crash if there is not a major correction in economic policy.
    If you are correct, Mr. Speedy, prepare for a crash. I think we get a recession every ten years or so, thus the next one should be due in 2017/18, and George Osborne is not going to change tack before then.

    The one good thing about such a recession/crash is that it will finally lay bare Osborne's hopeless stewardship of the economy and his failure to "fix the roof while the sun shines" and thus finally put paid to his political ambitions.
    4king dire numbers Mr L.

    totally avoidable if action is taken, but then you look at how they handled the steel crisis.....
    FFS, Mr. Brooke, the collapse of the steel industry was easily predictable and was in fact widely predicted. The policies pursued by Cameron and his clique were a major cause of that collapse. Then despite of all the warnings over many years the little wanker has the cheek to cut short his holiday and rush home for "crisis talks" as if we are to believe this is something out of the blue.

    Grrrr, I despise Cameron and his chums I really do.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,551
    Very sad about Ronnie Corbett. He was hilarious (especially with Ronnie Barker) and also seemed a genuinely nice man. (Lurid posthumous scandal in 3, 2, 1....)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2016

    FFS, Mr. Brooke, the collapse of the steel industry was easily predictable and was in fact widely predicted. The policies pursued by Cameron and his clique were a major cause of that collapse.

    Really?

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2016/3/31/this-one-statistic-sums-up-why-uk-steel-cant-compete-with-china

    Methinks you are working backwards from your dislike of 'Cameron and his chums' to a very, very silly conclusion.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,058
    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,368

    I truly detest Cruz. Unpleasant, and Xtreme.

    Does anyone out there like him?

    Why do people still vote for him?

    He's apparently authentically hardline evangelical, ticking every box you can think of. If you're in that camp, you aren't too bothered whether the candidate is a nice person - the question is will he stamp on abortion, will he crush the 'Muslim threat', will he appoint a militant evangelical to the Supreme Court? If he was nice that would be a bonus, but not essential to The Mission.
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    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited March 2016

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited March 2016
    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    This of course is a totally ludicrous argument - of that 93% the vast majority (hills/ mountains/ moors/ National Parks) is totally impractical and would need vast amounts of associated infrastructure (roads/ sewers/ electicity/ gas/ water supplies) as well as services such as shops/ restaurants/ hospitals/ fire stations/ police/ schools). Some of which has to be relatively close e.g. A&E)

    Of the land that notionally COULD be built on - well a lot lies in flood plains and a lot is used as farmland. Every square kilometre of farmland built on means more people to feed and less acreage to feed them.

    England is (barring some micro-states) the most densely populated country in Europe and 5th most densely populated country in the world.

    40% of UK food is imported - expected to rise to 50% in the next 20 years. A few sunken large ships in strategic places would make the Berlin Airlift look like a large picnic.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean

    Another PR stunt?
  • Options

    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean

    Another PR stunt?
    I don't know who is the more publicity shy.
    Branson or Paddy Power.
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    Weejohnnie I agree. I'm pointing out that IF you have an open door immigration policy then it makes sense to let people build houses pretty freely - or you'll get rampant house price inflation and a 'generation rent' intergenerational social injustices. Personally I wouldn't have so much immigration. I'd go for an absolute inbound total target set at a level we can actually absorb, a points system to decide who is within that target, and enforce it. That probably isn't compatible with remaining in the EU.
    Remain = unaffordable housing or 'pave paradise and put up a parking lot'.
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    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean

    Another PR stunt?
    April fool ?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    edited March 2016
    watford30 said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
    If you can't beat em, earn good interest by bricking over Bedfordshire https://savingstream.co.uk/loans/171
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean

    Another PR stunt?
    April fool ?
    Both?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    watford30 said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
    Except it's not every square inch nor is it millions in a neighborhood. Other than both remarks being wrong you might have a point somewhere.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    edited March 2016
    Patrick said:

    Weejohnnie I agree. I'm pointing out that IF you have an open door immigration policy then ...~~ you'll get rampant house price inflation and a 'generation rent' intergenerational social injustices.

    Where we are today :)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    F1: Vandoorne[sp] to replace Alonso, on health grounds.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,058
    edited March 2016
    watford30 said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
    To suggest my neighbours are motivated by racism is a totally unjustiable slur. I’ve never seen any evidence of any hositlity to the ethnic minority members (including those in my family) who live, work or visit here.
    Greedy property developers .... you might have a point.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I couldn't give two hoots about farmland remaining as such. If people want to keep their farmland as farmland then great, nobody should say otherwise.

    However if someone wants to build on their land or sell their land to a developer why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's their land. Good luck to them.

    At the same time once we've left the EU we should abolish agricultural subsidies and the CAP and not replace it with anything. If the farmland is productive then great, if it's not it should get the same level of support as other failed businesses.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Pulpstar said:

    Martin Lewis gives his two pennies on the EU ref:

    "Dear Martin, can you please let us know the straight facts of what'll happen if we leave the EU?"

    I've been swamped with many people asking me this question. So I want to answer.... "no I can't!" And if anyone else tells you they can, they are a liar.

    The EU issue isn't black or white. I find it very frustrating that most politicians who are pro-EU say all elements of the EU are good; and most politicians who are anti say all elements are bad. Neither is true, like the rest of life it's a mix.

    There are no simple answers. What'll happen if we leave is uncertain. What will happen if we stay is more certain - though still not without some questions and risks.

    Don't read 'uncertain' as bad. Read it simply as uncertain.

    It may be that leaving makes the UK a tiger economy in control of its own destiny, and we reap the benefits; or we end up on the outskirts of everything, ignored and struggling with trade. Or more likely somewhere in between.

    You have to make this decision based on your political attitude to Europe, how risk averse you are and what your gut instinct tells you.

    And even after that you need to accept you may make a good decision and have a bad outcome. Or make a bad decision then have a good one.

    Martin

    Fairest EUref comment I've seen yet.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, in that the status quo option isn't on the table. There is no more certainty that things will remain the same in or out of the EU, because the EU is heading towards the next stage of integration (that will be required to place the fiscal compact and other necessary measures for fiscal stability into the TFEU).

    Risk exists in equal measure either way.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,713

    Looks like this may have been published a day too early
    https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finding-buried-treasure-caribbean

    Another PR stunt?
    I don't know who is the more publicity shy.
    Branson or Paddy Power.
    Both amateurs compared to Michael O'Leary from Ryanair.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    Sadiq Khan's bid to be London Mayor was dealt a blow today as hard-Left activists admitted backing him to “strengthen” Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Standard can reveal that leaders of the controversial Momentum group told activists to support the Labour candidate because defeat in London on May 5 would “undermine” his party’s leader. Tories seized on the revelation by taunting: “Vote Khan, Get Corbyn.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-hardleft-plot-to-back-sadiq-khan-in-bid-to-strengthen-corbyn-a3215066.html

    ...but London likes Corbyn!
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    weejonnie said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    England is (barring some micro-states) the most densely populated country in Europe and 5th most densely populated country in the world.
    We can still use Scotland and Wales then, at least?
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    watford30 said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
    To suggest my neighbours are motivated by racism is a totally unjustiable slur. I’ve never seen any evidence of any hositlity to the ethnic minority members (including those in my family) who live, work or visit here.
    Greedy property developers .... you might have a point.
    Who mentioned 'race'? Not me.

    Seems to be the standard response to anyone concerned by the increase in the numbers of people settling here from overseas. Brand them a racist and close down any sensible discussion.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited March 2016

    Sadiq Khan's bid to be London Mayor was dealt a blow today as hard-Left activists admitted backing him to “strengthen” Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Standard can reveal that leaders of the controversial Momentum group told activists to support the Labour candidate because defeat in London on May 5 would “undermine” his party’s leader. Tories seized on the revelation by taunting: “Vote Khan, Get Corbyn.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-hardleft-plot-to-back-sadiq-khan-in-bid-to-strengthen-corbyn-a3215066.html

    In other breaking news, Leicester fans have scandalously admitted they hope the team beats Southampton this weekend in order to "strengthen" their chances of winning the league.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    New Top Gear Series Trailer! - Top Gear

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTWcEjj0w3s

    I think we can be guaranteed no non-PC one liners...
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    Danny565 said:

    Sadiq Khan's bid to be London Mayor was dealt a blow today as hard-Left activists admitted backing him to “strengthen” Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Standard can reveal that leaders of the controversial Momentum group told activists to support the Labour candidate because defeat in London on May 5 would “undermine” his party’s leader. Tories seized on the revelation by taunting: “Vote Khan, Get Corbyn.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-hardleft-plot-to-back-sadiq-khan-in-bid-to-strengthen-corbyn-a3215066.html

    In other breaking news, Leicester fans have scandalously admitted they hope the team beats Southampton this weekend in order to "strengthen" their chances of winning the league.
    At least we know The Standard will give Zac the same level of support they gave Boris
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    A couple of weeks ago I drove from Glasgow to Bradford and then took the train from Leeds to London. I often drive from Surrey to Worthing. So I have seen most of the country out of the window (apart for the wild bits north of the M8). It's pretty empty! I have lived in Beijing, Manila, Lagos, Hong Kong and the Hague- these are crowded places. (Hague not so much, actually, just flat and dull). England is still a green and pleasant land and building on the brown bits wouldn't do any harm if we fill the space with those who fit in and will not be a drain. (Non English speaking angry traumatised Muslims wouldn't get any points on the Patrick points system - God I must be an out and out baby eater!).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Danny565 said:

    Sadiq Khan's bid to be London Mayor was dealt a blow today as hard-Left activists admitted backing him to “strengthen” Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Standard can reveal that leaders of the controversial Momentum group told activists to support the Labour candidate because defeat in London on May 5 would “undermine” his party’s leader. Tories seized on the revelation by taunting: “Vote Khan, Get Corbyn.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-hardleft-plot-to-back-sadiq-khan-in-bid-to-strengthen-corbyn-a3215066.html

    In other breaking news, Leicester fans have scandalously admitted they hope the team beats Southampton this weekend in order to "strengthen" their chances of winning the league.
    "Dealt a blow" - stock hyperbole journalism phrase #62534

    Donald Trump was "dealt a blow" after "it was revealed" his campaign manager was charged with battery "the Standard has learnt".
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627
    "Oh vagina, oh vagina, over Chinatown!"
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627
    Ok, so it's not Two Ronnies but they inspired it and it was bloody funny.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Royale, that Not The Nine O'Clock News sketch is reportedly one of the reasons the Two Ronnies ended. Corbett (according to Mel Smith) liked it a lot, but Barker really hated it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Danny565 said:

    Sadiq Khan's bid to be London Mayor was dealt a blow today as hard-Left activists admitted backing him to “strengthen” Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Standard can reveal that leaders of the controversial Momentum group told activists to support the Labour candidate because defeat in London on May 5 would “undermine” his party’s leader. Tories seized on the revelation by taunting: “Vote Khan, Get Corbyn.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-hardleft-plot-to-back-sadiq-khan-in-bid-to-strengthen-corbyn-a3215066.html

    In other breaking news, Leicester fans have scandalously admitted they hope the team beats Southampton this weekend in order to "strengthen" their chances of winning the league.
    At least we know The Standard will give Zac the same level of support they gave Boris
    Yup, that's going to swing a lot of votes as well, the Standard is easily the number one source of news in London.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,368

    I couldn't give two hoots about farmland remaining as such. If people want to keep their farmland as farmland then great, nobody should say otherwise.

    However if someone wants to build on their land or sell their land to a developer why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's their land. Good luck to them.

    At the same time once we've left the EU we should abolish agricultural subsidies and the CAP and not replace it with anything. If the farmland is productive then great, if it's not it should get the same level of support as other failed businesses.

    I agree up to a point, though I think that considerations of scenery and the environment can reasonably constrain extreme ideas - I wouldn't really propose building 100 factories on the Downs even if it made economic sense.

    But more to the point, it's established, explicit Government policy NOT to attempt to promote self-sufficiency in food.- the assumption that we can often import it more cheaply than we can make it is deeply embedded in Government policy and has been for decades. So those who argue that farms must be protected at all costs have a big, established policy to overcome.

    Would a few strategically sunken ships make us all starve? Probably not, I'd think. A prolonged war involving the sea lanes would, as it nearly did in WW2, but thanks to the EU or whatever else one ascribes it, the likelihood of that seems to be near zero these days. Any big war we were in with the likes of Russia would be...short.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Speedy said:

    Patrick said:

    We urgently need a weaker Pound as we reach a new all time high current account deficit:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

    Roll on the Brexit!

    Yikes.
    7% of GDP is a new all time record, it's on the same level the USA reached just before they crashed in 2008.

    The famous large double deficits (budget deficit and current account deficit) really point to an upcoming crash if there is not a major correction in economic policy.
    If you are correct, Mr. Speedy, prepare for a crash. I think we get a recession every ten years or so, thus the next one should be due in 2017/18, and George Osborne is not going to change tack before then.

    The one good thing about such a recession/crash is that it will finally lay bare Osborne's hopeless stewardship of the economy and his failure to "fix the roof while the sun shines" and thus finally put paid to his political ambitions.
    4king dire numbers Mr L.

    totally avoidable if action is taken, but then you look at how they handled the steel crisis.....
    FFS, Mr. Brooke, the collapse of the steel industry was easily predictable and was in fact widely predicted. The policies pursued by Cameron and his clique were a major cause of that collapse. Then despite of all the warnings over many years the little wanker has the cheek to cut short his holiday and rush home for "crisis talks" as if we are to believe this is something out of the blue.

    Grrrr, I despise Cameron and his chums I really do.
    Don't be unfair.

    He was only going on holiday to give him "time to think". He might as well come home now he's finished with that
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    TonyE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Martin Lewis gives his two pennies on the EU ref:

    "Dear Martin, can you please let us know the straight facts of what'll happen if we leave the EU?"

    I've been swamped with many people asking me this question. So I want to answer.... "no I can't!" And if anyone else tells you they can, they are a liar.

    The EU issue isn't black or white. I find it very frustrating that most politicians who are pro-EU say all elements of the EU are good; and most politicians who are anti say all elements are bad. Neither is true, like the rest of life it's a mix.

    There are no simple answers. What'll happen if we leave is uncertain. What will happen if we stay is more certain - though still not without some questions and risks.

    Don't read 'uncertain' as bad. Read it simply as uncertain.

    It may be that leaving makes the UK a tiger economy in control of its own destiny, and we reap the benefits; or we end up on the outskirts of everything, ignored and struggling with trade. Or more likely somewhere in between.

    You have to make this decision based on your political attitude to Europe, how risk averse you are and what your gut instinct tells you.

    And even after that you need to accept you may make a good decision and have a bad outcome. Or make a bad decision then have a good one.

    Martin

    Fairest EUref comment I've seen yet.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, in that the status quo option isn't on the table. There is no more certainty that things will remain the same in or out of the EU, because the EU is heading towards the next stage of integration (that will be required to place the fiscal compact and other necessary measures for fiscal stability into the TFEU).

    Risk exists in equal measure either way.
    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    TOPPING said:

    TonyE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Martin Lewis gives his two pennies on the EU ref:

    "Dear Martin, can you please let us know the straight facts of what'll happen if we leave the EU?"

    I've been swamped with many people asking me this question. So I want to answer.... "no I can't!" And if anyone else tells you they can, they are a liar.

    The EU issue isn't black or white. I find it very frustrating that most politicians who are pro-EU say all elements of the EU are good; and most politicians who are anti say all elements are bad. Neither is true, like the rest of life it's a mix.

    There are no simple answers. What'll happen if we leave is uncertain. What will happen if we stay is more certain - though still not without some questions and risks.

    Don't read 'uncertain' as bad. Read it simply as uncertain.

    It may be that leaving makes the UK a tiger economy in control of its own destiny, and we reap the benefits; or we end up on the outskirts of everything, ignored and struggling with trade. Or more likely somewhere in between.

    You have to make this decision based on your political attitude to Europe, how risk averse you are and what your gut instinct tells you.

    And even after that you need to accept you may make a good decision and have a bad outcome. Or make a bad decision then have a good one.

    Martin

    Fairest EUref comment I've seen yet.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, in that the status quo option isn't on the table. There is no more certainty that things will remain the same in or out of the EU, because the EU is heading towards the next stage of integration (that will be required to place the fiscal compact and other necessary measures for fiscal stability into the TFEU).

    Risk exists in equal measure either way.
    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?
    Well it's not just that, the fiscal compact looks dead in the water anyway like the FTT.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727

    I couldn't give two hoots about farmland remaining as such. If people want to keep their farmland as farmland then great, nobody should say otherwise.

    However if someone wants to build on their land or sell their land to a developer why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's their land. Good luck to them.

    At the same time once we've left the EU we should abolish agricultural subsidies and the CAP and not replace it with anything. If the farmland is productive then great, if it's not it should get the same level of support as other failed businesses.

    Farmland with planning permission is worth a lot more than farmland without. Are you in favour of unplanned housing development? What about roads, schools etc etc?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited March 2016
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TonyE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Martin Lewis gives his two pennies on the EU ref:

    "Dear Martin, can you please let us know the straight facts of what'll happen if we leave the EU?"

    I've been swamped with many people asking me this question. So I want to answer.... "no I can't!" And if anyone else tells you they can, they are a liar.

    The EU issue isn't black or white. I find it very frustrating that most politicians who are pro-EU say all elements of the EU are good; and most politicians who are anti say all elements are bad. Neither is true, like the rest of life it's a mix.

    There are no simple answers. What'll happen if we leave is uncertain. What will happen if we stay is more certain - though still not without some questions and risks.

    Don't read 'uncertain' as bad. Read it simply as uncertain.

    It may be that leaving makes the UK a tiger economy in control of its own destiny, and we reap the benefits; or we end up on the outskirts of everything, ignored and struggling with trade. Or more likely somewhere in between.

    You have to make this decision based on your political attitude to Europe, how risk averse you are and what your gut instinct tells you.

    And even after that you need to accept you may make a good decision and have a bad outcome. Or make a bad decision then have a good one.

    Martin

    Fairest EUref comment I've seen yet.
    I don't think it's entirely fair, in that the status quo option isn't on the table. There is no more certainty that things will remain the same in or out of the EU, because the EU is heading towards the next stage of integration (that will be required to place the fiscal compact and other necessary measures for fiscal stability into the TFEU).

    Risk exists in equal measure either way.
    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?
    Well it's not just that, the fiscal compact looks dead in the water anyway like the FTT.
    It was a pretty bizarre doc. I mean that really was closer union by the back door...amazing that Dave got such stick for rejecting it.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    I couldn't give two hoots about farmland remaining as such. If people want to keep their farmland as farmland then great, nobody should say otherwise.

    However if someone wants to build on their land or sell their land to a developer why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's their land. Good luck to them.

    At the same time once we've left the EU we should abolish agricultural subsidies and the CAP and not replace it with anything. If the farmland is productive then great, if it's not it should get the same level of support as other failed businesses.

    We should keep some kind of strategic reserve agricultural capacity. Obviously we can never be self-sufficient as a nation for food production but having some kind of reserve makes sense.
  • Options
    There is, of course, a massive difference between being self-sufficient in food and having food security. Security is better served by having diversity of supply. You import more and add more economic value elsewhere with your land than in the agricultural sector. It would be hard or impossible to physically blockade the UK and starve us out. As long as the economy is in good shape - good enough that other countries want our money - then we are food secure. It's when we might have the worry of an economic collapse that the additional worry of starving would then come. But such an outcome would play out very slowly - and the economics of agriculture would kick back in long before we got near starving. So I think government policy is about right on this one. Forget UK self sufficiency in food and go for efficient land use.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Can I just say that I loathe Barclays with a passion.

    There was just one thing they needed to do for me today.

    One thing.

    And yet they still f*** it up.
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Can I just say that I loathe Barclays with a passion.

    There was just one thing they needed to do for me today.

    One thing.

    And yet they still f*** it up.

    Ring your relationship manager.

    Mine is awesome.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
  • Options
    Just for you.

    Donald Trump may have gone from a joke to a nightmare but is he just the latest incarnation of Ancient Athens’ favourite bad boy? This week’s Spectator Ancient and Modern column compares the wannabe prez to Cleon, who took over after the death of Pericles in 429 BC “with no known political or military experience behind him”.

    “It was this ‘brutal and insolent’ speaker, said the historian Plutarch, who introduced shouting and abuse and excessive gesturing, encouraging other speakers to behave equally irresponsibly.” Little detail is available on whether or not he had a combover or a permatan, though.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/londoners-diary-parking-fiasco-as-supercars-clog-the-streets-a3215076.html
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    TOPPING said:

    It was a pretty bizarre doc. I mean that really was closer union by the back door...amazing that Dave got such stick for rejecting it.

    Yeah, the word is that even the Germans feel stupid for proposing such an idea now which is why it's dead. The countries may have ratified it but not a single fine or punishment has been levied in accordance with the new rules. Not only was it a complete waste of time, it also pushed the people of this country away from the EU because our PM was forced to play the same "bad guy" role who blocks these stupid, ill thought out agreements. If we do leave then a different country will have to take up that same role and be the voice of reason against overwhelming stupidity at these summits and it will poison their relationship with the other nations just as ours has been.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited March 2016
    If we were to become the 51st State, that'll be 60 Electoral College Votes for the Dems, I reckon

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/715552070464630784
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Hillary Clinton is basically every single mainstream European party rolled up into 1 person.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Eagles, must admit, I've grown rusty on that period.

    However, a Wiki check reveals I do actually know him (for some reason I had his name as Cleomenes in my mind). He was the chap that the excellent Brasidas thwarted (around Amphipolis, or thereabouts).
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited March 2016
    hmm.

    Really not sure what to do with my large Paul Ryan POTUS position.

    Over on predictit, he's a bonkers 7/1 for the nomination and (arguably generous) 18-20/1 for potus.

    Betfair's ~25/1 for the nomination seems around the right ballpark, which to me means his potus price of ~110/1 looks too generous. Would he really be 3/1 vs Hillary? I'd have him at 6/4 max.

    Think i'll just hold for now. If his price falls below 50/1, i'll reconsider laying.
  • Options
    As one Cabinet minister admits: ‘The extreme 10 per cent on either side of the Tory party absolutely loathe each other.’

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/who-is-the-tories-stop-boris-candidate/
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    Europe is going to have an utter cow if and when the Donald gets elected! I can't wait.
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Cruz 38
    Trump 37
    Kasich 17

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2016/03/sanders-leads-in-wisconsin-gop-race-close-va-privatization-issue-hurts-johnson.html

    Would be a decent result as I believe that would deliver CDs 1,3,7 and 8 to Trump and thus 12 Delegates.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938


    Risk exists in equal measure either way.

    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?

    There was a document released called the Fundamental Law. This set up a method by which the EU was split into two separate entities, one a core Eurozone and the rest as 'Associate members'. It was a prototype treaty from the Spinelli federalist group.

    The problem with this is that the compulsion in the treaty to eventually join the central core was not removed (so only us and the Danes are technically free of it). It would slowly move us to a point of no influence at all - with the EZ moving forward to full political integration. We'd be parked on the outside, still subject to all the political rulings but with very little pull.

    Read with the 5 presidents report, then I think that was designed to be the 'windows 10' (last full treaty) moment for the EU, and I think it was also on the cards at one stage for 2017, which is why the referendum date is the same. We should have been voting on associate membership. But the timetable slipped due to the multiple crises and the German/French election timetable.

    http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/fundamentallaw.pdf (Fundamental Law)

    http://ec.europa.eu/priorities/economic-monetary-union/docs/5-presidents-report_en.pdf
    (5 Presidents report)
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Patrick said:

    Europe is going to have an utter cow if and when the Donald gets elected! I can't wait.

    Imagine the reaction to George Bush Jnr...then multiply it by 100...
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    TonyE said:



    Risk exists in equal measure either way.

    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?

    There was a document released called the Fundamental Law. This set up a method by which the EU was split into two separate entities, one a core Eurozone and the rest as 'Associate members'. It was a prototype treaty from the Spinelli federalist group.

    The problem with this is that the compulsion in the treaty to eventually join the central core was not removed (so only us and the Danes are technically free of it). It would slowly move us to a point of no influence at all - with the EZ moving forward to full political integration. We'd be parked on the outside, still subject to all the political rulings but with very little pull.

    Read with the 5 presidents report, then I think that was designed to be the 'windows 10' (last full treaty) moment for the EU, and I think it was also on the cards at one stage for 2017, which is why the referendum date is the same. We should have been voting on associate membership. But the timetable slipped due to the multiple crises and the German/French election timetable.

    http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/fundamentallaw.pdf (Fundamental Law)

    http://ec.europa.eu/priorities/economic-monetary-union/docs/5-presidents-report_en.pdf
    (5 Presidents report)

    Sorry, that's meant to be a reply to @topping
    Still getting used to this comment system!
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Oh, and Bernie sanders at an implied 1/2 for POTUS, if he gets the nomination is, umm, optimistic.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    West Indies are going to need a Chris Gayle to be on top form.
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Pong said:

    hmm.

    Really not sure what to do with my large Paul Ryan POTUS position.

    Over on predictit, he's a bonkers 7/1 for the nomination and (arguably generous) 18-20/1 for potus.

    Betfair's ~25/1 for the nomination seems around the right ballpark, which to me means his potus price of ~110/1 looks too generous. Would he really be 3/1 vs Hillary? I'd have him at 6/4 max.

    Think i'll just hold for now. If his price falls below 50/1, i'll reconsider laying.

    Anyone except Trump and the GOP is finished.

    This is exactly what the neo-con artists and their open borders toadies have wanted all along, so that their preferred candidate, Hillary Clinton, can win. All that is left for them to do is hand pick a sacrificial lamb, like McCain and Romney.

    This has happened because the GOP is nothing but a lobbyist check cashing service disguised as a political party.

    About 10 million Republicans will leave the party in protest. I have already decided that is what I will do. I will vote for NO Republican at any level except Kelli Ward because she’s running against McCain. Not a dogcatcher, not a commissioner, no one.

    I worked really hard to get Rep. Brat elected to congress and to beat Cantor. I believe the Cantor defeat was the election heard around the world. Nobody paid attention and it was forgotten immediately. But in actuality it was the opening volley in this upheaval. I will vote for Rep. Brat again but that is it. No other GOPers.

    Interesting that Romney and Paul Ryan lost Wisconsin by 7 points. In 00 and 04 the Democrats won by less than 1 point.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,067

    FPT:

    scotslass said:

    TCPoliticalBetting

    Not sure I agree that a decline in SNP/Nicola is inevitable even in the medium term.

    The SNP has risen substantially in popularity since it gained office in 2007. Salmond stayed at positive popularity ratings throughout his eight years in office, almost unheard of in a democratic system. However, Sturgeon shows every sign of doing the same. The new powers will not change that dynamic since the SNP have sensibly avoided the daftness of Labour and Greens in suggesting hiking every tax rate (or the indirect tax bombshells of the Tories in £9,000 tuition fees) and instead opted for a relatively mild redistribution of income tax and Council Tax towards the lower paid.

    The NATS retain a radical cutting edge on the issues of Trident, renewable power, land reform and of course independence. They are despite an incredibly hostile old fashioned press a competent Government by UK standards - compare for example their solution on saving Scottish steel to the total confusion of the Tories. On that formula barring accidents (and events dear boy events) the SNP is set for a further long run of dominance.

    The SNP owns the flag and has made sure to do nothing that will alienate those who vote in elections. That's why it has said plenty about food banks and austerity, but has done nothing practical to alleviate either. As a result, it will govern for many years to come. Whether that actually leads to independence, though, is another thing entirely.

    'Not doing very much' is actually not that bad a government policy.

    The question remains how long the Zoomers can put up with the gap between the 'social democratic' rhetoric and the 'evil bastard Tory' policy.......
    As long as the evil Tories and inept Labour clowns continue as they are, so will be a long long time.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,387

    West Indies are going to need a Chris Gayle to be on top form.

    Yes, it really is all down to him. I suspect we will be playing India in the final. But with Gayle anything is possible.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Interesting new market from Hills.

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle
    Mayor of London - most First Pref votes, excl Khan/Goldsmith: 13/8 Whittle (UKIP): 9/4 Berry (Green); 11/4 Pidgeon (LD); 9/2 Galloway (Resp)
  • Options

    Interesting new market from Hills.

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle
    Mayor of London - most First Pref votes, excl Khan/Goldsmith: 13/8 Whittle (UKIP): 9/4 Berry (Green); 11/4 Pidgeon (LD); 9/2 Galloway (Resp)

    No odds on Winston? For shame
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    Interesting new market from Hills.

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle
    Mayor of London - most First Pref votes, excl Khan/Goldsmith: 13/8 Whittle (UKIP): 9/4 Berry (Green); 11/4 Pidgeon (LD); 9/2 Galloway (Resp)

    I think the best bet there is

    1) Be the bookie
    2) Lay Galloway at 18%.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,067

    Ronnie Corbett:

    I was just in the local park when a young woman in her late teens / early twenties who was listening to the radio on her phone said: "Is it true Ronnie Corbett has died?"

    I said I didn't know, and a few minutes later she was gently sobbing.

    It seems odd that such a young woman would react so strongly to the death of an entertainer whose best years were well before she was born.

    RIP.

    Sounds more like she should not be let out on her own.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    edited March 2016
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2016

    Polling is a real pick em job between Lib Dem, Green, UKIP for 3rd.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,058
    malcolmg said:

    Ronnie Corbett:

    I was just in the local park when a young woman in her late teens / early twenties who was listening to the radio on her phone said: "Is it true Ronnie Corbett has died?"

    I said I didn't know, and a few minutes later she was gently sobbing.

    It seems odd that such a young woman would react so strongly to the death of an entertainer whose best years were well before she was born.

    RIP.

    Sounds more like she should not be let out on her own.
    She was mourning the death of a Scotsman, Malc!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    Interesting new market from Hills.

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle
    Mayor of London - most First Pref votes, excl Khan/Goldsmith: 13/8 Whittle (UKIP): 9/4 Berry (Green); 11/4 Pidgeon (LD); 9/2 Galloway (Resp)

    No odds on Winston? For shame
    Galloway vs McKenzie is the real contest of the mayoral election.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,067
    watford30 said:

    Patrick said:

    You don't feel increasing the population by the size of a major city like Cardiff, each year, every year might have some effect on housing supply/demand then? Not to mention Health, education, transport.

    Of course. But the natural response to increased demand is increased supply. In the UK we don't seem to have that option. 93% of the UK is still fields or wilderness. We are 'full' - but not really. The space available to build is full. A massive planning liberalisation (it's your land - do WTF you want with it) would make the supply / demand imbalance evaporate PDQ.

    I suspect I’m about the only resident in ther small town where I live (other than someone who is trying to sell a derelict garden centre) who isn’t busy signing petitions agains any more houses being built here.
    It's easy to understand why people are so reluctant to see every square inch of their neighbourhood built over to house the millions here as a result of uncontrolled immigration. And further enrich greedy property developers at the same time.
    Hard to believe I actually agree with you for once
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Can I just say that I loathe Barclays with a passion.

    There was just one thing they needed to do for me today.

    One thing.

    And yet they still f*** it up.

    Ring your relationship manager.

    Mine is awesome.
    My relationship manager is at another bank. Barclays were cheap money.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    I couldn't give two hoots about farmland remaining as such. If people want to keep their farmland as farmland then great, nobody should say otherwise.

    However if someone wants to build on their land or sell their land to a developer why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's their land. Good luck to them.

    At the same time once we've left the EU we should abolish agricultural subsidies and the CAP and not replace it with anything. If the farmland is productive then great, if it's not it should get the same level of support as other failed businesses.

    I agree up to a point, though I think that considerations of scenery and the environment can reasonably constrain extreme ideas - I wouldn't really propose building 100 factories on the Downs even if it made economic sense.

    But more to the point, it's established, explicit Government policy NOT to attempt to promote self-sufficiency in food.- the assumption that we can often import it more cheaply than we can make it is deeply embedded in Government policy and has been for decades. So those who argue that farms must be protected at all costs have a big, established policy to overcome.

    Would a few strategically sunken ships make us all starve? Probably not, I'd think. A prolonged war involving the sea lanes would, as it nearly did in WW2, but thanks to the EU or whatever else one ascribes it, the likelihood of that seems to be near zero these days. Any big war we were in with the likes of Russia would be...short.
    Nick, such a war would indeed be short. The UK would probably capitulate inside a month if an aggressor power managed to concentrate 6 to 12 modern non-nuclear submarines against the UK's trade.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Can I just say that I loathe Barclays with a passion.

    There was just one thing they needed to do for me today.

    One thing.

    And yet they still f*** it up.

    Ring your relationship manager.

    Mine is awesome.
    My relationship manager is at another bank. Barclays were cheap money.
    "You get what you pay for"...
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2016

    Polling is a real pick em job between Lib Dem, Green, UKIP for 3rd.

    If UKIP can't even get 3rd place when a European referendum's on....
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Popcorn out....nom nom nom....all pretty ladies please leave the stadium...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited March 2016
    @TonyE
    We've already said no to the fiscal compact, the other EU members accepted it. How many times do you think we will be asked to and then have to opt out of or veto the fiscal compact?

    There was a document released called the Fundamental Law. This set up a method by which the EU was split into two separate entities, one a core Eurozone and the rest as 'Associate members'. It was a prototype treaty from the Spinelli federalist group.

    The problem with this is that the compulsion in the treaty to eventually join the central core was not removed (so only us and the Danes are technically free of it). It would slowly move us to a point of no influence at all - with the EZ moving forward to full political integration. We'd be parked on the outside, still subject to all the political rulings but with very little pull.

    Read with the 5 presidents report, then I think that was designed to be the 'windows 10' (last full treaty) moment for the EU, and I think it was also on the cards at one stage for 2017, which is why the referendum date is the same. We should have been voting on associate membership. But the timetable slipped due to the multiple crises and the German/French election timetable.

    http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/fundamentallaw.pdf (Fundamental Law)

    http://ec.europa.eu/priorities/economic-monetary-union/docs/5-presidents-report_en.pdf
    (5 Presidents report)

    Sorry, that's meant to be a reply to @topping
    Still getting used to this comment system!
    ha! Thanks - will take a look.

    I don't think there's any doubt that there will be a two-speed europe EZ and EU members. We are the exception in the EU and any cursory reading of EU directives illustrates this. So the question is whether we are happier out of core EU but having input into and voting on the rules for various things, or whether we should be out altogether with input only at the preliminary stage of regulations.

    As @DavidL points out, he believes it is better to be out because there is stuff we can self-determine and the EU is going its own way regardless (as you say). My view is that for those areas where we do have influence, coupled with the agreement (no ECU, no EZ discrimination), I think it better to be in.

    As regular PB-ers will know this stems mainly from my view of how membership of the EU interacts with and affects our financial services industry.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited March 2016
    Speedy said:

    Patrick said:

    We urgently need a weaker Pound as we reach a new all time high current account deficit:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968

    Roll on the Brexit!

    Yikes.
    7% of GDP is a new all time record, it's on the same level the USA reached just before they crashed in 2008.
    The famous large double deficits (budget deficit and current account deficit) really point to an upcoming crash if there is not a major correction in economic policy.
    How to quickly cut outflows from the UK?
    1. Cut overseas aid to the level of France = cuts the 7% by 0.3%.
    2. Exit EU and save at least £11bn, = worth at least 0.7%.
    Together cuts 7% down to 6%.
    Simples and could save more on the EU part once we decide spending.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2016
    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2016

    Polling is a real pick em job between Lib Dem, Green, UKIP for 3rd.

    If UKIP can't even get 3rd place when a European referendum's on....
    Well, it is London. Also EU Ref is a bit later. Same day might make the 11-8 a good bet. But London !
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    AndyJS said:

    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.

    Its bloody awful.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Urquhart, it is a truth universally acknowledged that website redesigns inexplicably make things worse.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2016

    Polling is a real pick em job between Lib Dem, Green, UKIP for 3rd.

    If UKIP can't even get 3rd place when a European referendum's on....
    Well, it is London. Also EU Ref is a bit later. Same day might make the 11-8 a good bet. But London !
    Well, yeah, it being London is an excuse for why UKIP are way behind the Big 2, but struggling to even stay ahead of the Greens and the Dead Parrot....?!?
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    England v India final then
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited March 2016

    Mr. Urquhart, it is a truth universally acknowledged that website redesigns inexplicably make things worse.

    In all seriousness, I think the problem that all media outlets are having is that the design trend for modern websites have followed a more minimalist approach, often with just a single scrollable page. However, that doesn't work for media with lots of stories, and the number / types of stories constantly changing.

    So far, I haven't seen anybody that has nailed it, they have all ended up with this mess of text, images, video links, all over the place.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited March 2016
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Gayle gone...looked distracted to me.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Big Chris gone. England India final.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited March 2016
    Lots of their links don't work. Their Gallery has lost the animal pix archive and the rest say Facebook error page not recognised

    And that's when I access the site directly with Firefox. There's no feedback options either. It's still much better than the Times dogs breakfast. 400 comments with 99% hating it.
    AndyJS said:

    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.

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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Gayle gone...looked distracted to me.

    Did a pretty female cross his eye line when that delivery was bowled?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2016

    Polling is a real pick em job between Lib Dem, Green, UKIP for 3rd.

    If UKIP can't even get 3rd place when a European referendum's on....
    Well, it is London. Also EU Ref is a bit later. Same day might make the 11-8 a good bet. But London !
    Well, yeah, it being London is an excuse for why UKIP are way behind the Big 2, but struggling to even stay ahead of the Greens and the Dead Parrot....?!?
    The parrots will get their 3-6% in the "Feeling guilty about voting Tory in the election, but we couldn't have coped with Ed Miliband's mansion tax" Southwest corner.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Is Tyson selling up?

    Fortified 10th-century castle in Italy complete with olive groves, 17 farmhouses and a church could be yours

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3517153/Fancy-owning-VILLAGE-Fortified-10th-century-castle-Italy-complete-olive-groves-17-farmhouses-church-spare-5-7million.html
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Lots of their links don't work. Their Gallery has lost the animal pix archive and the rest say Facebook error page not recognised

    And that's when I access the site directly with Firefox. There's no feedback options either. It's still much better than the Times dogs breakfast. 400 comments with 99% hating it.

    AndyJS said:

    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.

    I see The Times has also redesigned its site. What's with both of them changing at the same time?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,067

    malcolmg said:

    Ronnie Corbett:

    I was just in the local park when a young woman in her late teens / early twenties who was listening to the radio on her phone said: "Is it true Ronnie Corbett has died?"

    I said I didn't know, and a few minutes later she was gently sobbing.

    It seems odd that such a young woman would react so strongly to the death of an entertainer whose best years were well before she was born.

    RIP.

    Sounds more like she should not be let out on her own.
    She was mourning the death of a Scotsman, Malc!
    Maybe just a young lady with taste then. Though I have to say the modern stupidity of people wailing and gnashing their teeth in the streets for people they do not even know is a bit abhorrent to an old
    school type like myself.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The only thing could be spending their budgets this tax year?

    I'm astonished at how crap the Times is.
    AndyJS said:

    Lots of their links don't work. Their Gallery has lost the animal pix archive and the rest say Facebook error page not recognised

    And that's when I access the site directly with Firefox. There's no feedback options either. It's still much better than the Times dogs breakfast. 400 comments with 99% hating it.

    AndyJS said:

    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.

    I see The Times has also redesigned its site. What's with both of them changing at the same time?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,907

    Lots of their links don't work. Their Gallery has lost the animal pix archive and the rest say Facebook error page not recognised

    And that's when I access the site directly with Firefox. There's no feedback options either. It's still much better than the Times dogs breakfast. 400 comments with 99% hating it.

    AndyJS said:

    O/T: The Telegraph seem to have changed the look of their website today. Looks a bit strange, as new website designs always do on the first day.

    Comments immediately after a web redesign are always negative. The cheese has moved. Some people can't handle it. It generally works out well in the end.
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